want that piece of paper. there's no one particular route that they take. >> why did the majority of the indian tribes sign with the confederacy? mr. dunkerly: look at their history. they has been removed, the trail of tears. the u.s. government and u.s. military is there traditional enemy. they're anxious to ally themselves with the enemy of the u.s. hoping they can gain more independence. it just seems natural. of course, as things deteriorate they are quick to turn around at the end of the war. it is because of the treatment of the united states government. they've been removed from their homelands and resettled in oklahoma. they saw a chance to gain a measure of independence back. thank you. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

[applause] >> for those who have more questions, he will be in the lobby signing his books. you can ask questions. one thing to keep in mind, there were also native americans that did fight in the union army as well. particularly from minnesota. and yesterday we talked about ely parker, who drafted the terms at appomattox. bert has several books, the confederate surrender at greensboro "no turning back." and then, his talk was about "to to the bitter end." people only say i would like to buy a book for my friend. they love the civil war but i do not know what books they have.

they do not have this book, i guarantee it. it came in just as we were loading up the van to bring it too long with. -- to longwood. just off the press. you can find books and answer questions. mark bradley, yesterday, our last speaker sign some of his books. "this astounding close," "blue coats," "tar heels." if you buy $50 of books, they give you a nice bag. you get the bag otherwise for 2. 95. we're live with american history tv c-span3. this will reair april 7 and april 8. with that, we'll take our 10

minute break and come back with our next speaker, casey clabough . >> just one note further. coverage will reenter at 6:00 p.m. eastern tonight on american history tv. we will return to longwood university to continue our coverage of the closing of the civil war seminar in 10 minutes. they will hear from casey clabough, the author of "confederado: a novel of the americas." all our coverage is available online at c-span.org/history. we will be back live in a bit. c-span is touring cities across the country, exploring american history. part of our recent visit to

chattanooga. >> chattanooga region is one of several parts of the area that could be said to be another south. this was a region of divided sentiment. there was a growing industrial base in the late antebellum period. when the southern states, the gulf states decided to leave the union to make their bid for independence and then were joined in the spring by the upper south states, including tennessee, this region was one where the national divisions played out on a local area. the population was very divided over whether or not to stay in the union to protect southern rights, or depart the u.s. to depart the constitutional protection. inmate a -- and make a bid for

the protection of southern rights by forming a new nation, the confederate states of america. there literally were troops raised from here on both sides. chattanooga was important from the beginning of the war on. because of the intersection of the railroads. there were 4 rail companies operating on three rail lines that connect or intersect at chattanooga. they do that to take advantage of the naturally occurring mountain gaps, passes, and corridors which allow passage through the appalachian mountains. chattanooga was important from the beginning of the war. initially because so many seven soldiers going to fight -- southern soldiers going to fight for southern independence passed through chattanooga on the way to what they described as the

early seat of war, in northern virginia or along the kentucky-tennessee border. chattanooga's importance increased as the war lengthened. the new confederate nation realized if they were going to be successful in winning independence in maintaining that they had to develop the military industrial capacity to produce the war materiel soldiers needed. that military industrial base not be new nation goes to create is located in central georgia and central alabama. as the complex grew and capacity , chattanooga became more important as a union target. it was the doorway, the passageway through the mountain barrier that come in union hands, could allow a union army to thrust into the industrial heartland. the union advance out of middle

tennessee, having earlier driven software from louisville to nashville, now they are thrusting on towards chattanooga. they advance from the northwest from middle tennessee and coming over the mountains to the northwest of chattanooga on a broad front. literally, by feint deception and maneuver, threatening to client over the mouse to the southwest of chattanooga, they forced the confederates in early september 1863 to abandon the city of chattanooga. a small union force then occupies the city to garrison it. the two main armies meet in the largest and bloodiest conflict of the campaign, the battle of chickamauga. in the valley of west chickamau ga in september 1863. the union army is defeated.

they are able to withdraw into chattanooga. they fortify themselves within a one square mile area in the bend of the tennessee river and await reinforcements. while the confederates attempted to lay siege to the union army from positions along missionary ridge to the east, from across the valley to lookout mountain and onto lookout mountain itself. the final battle in the overall campaign for chattanooga and the final battle of those fought in november of 1863 unfolds along missionary ridge. to the east of chattanooga east of where we are located. a long rich, the confederates have had their main position throughout late september, october and november. 48 hours before the fighting on the ridge on november 25, the

confederates attempts to build fortifications along the crest of missionary ridge. late on the afternoon of november 25, when ulysses s. grant, from here at orchard knob makes the decision to send union troops against missionary ridge directly east of us in what he intended as a limited assault against the confederate rifles at the base of the rich. those union soldiers, advancing with less than 1.5 hours of daylight remaining moved forward. very few of them knowing anything about grant's limited attention, they move forward -- limited in tension -- limited intention. then move forward and find confederates on the crest of the ridge. they find places where fire cannot cover and get to them. they work their way up the side of the ridge.

in a remarkable scene the union troops will penetrate the confederate line along the crest of missionary ridge at multiple points. almost simultaneously. and send the confederate army retreating office missionary ridge to the east and back down into georgia. with that union success on november the fifth and a brief pursuit on the 26th and 27th chattanooga is now firmly in union hands. it will be turned by the union army over that coming winter into a giant supply base, similar to our forward operating bases today. it is from chattanooga not following spring that william tecumseh sherman will take a combined eu nor me an advance southwards from chattanooga towards atlanta -- a combined union army and advanced southwards from chattanooga

towards atlanta, the industrial heartland, disrupt and destroy most of it. bringing the war to a close in spring 1865. observers and participants at the time believed that union success here at chattanooga was a signal of ultimate union success in the war. some have said that this was the death knell of the confederacy. chattanooga remained in union hands from their seizure of it in this campaign for chattanooga and 1863 onto the end of the war . in part because it was a union base and garrison town in the last year and a half of the war, it allow a number of individuals from the north to come to chattanooga and began exploiting the resources that are in the greater chattanooga region. even before the war. is over

chattanooga's industrial segment of its economy that was beginning to grow just before the war gets reinvigorated in the closing months of the war. then will boom in the late 1860's and 1870's. we are located right now at what is known as orchard knob,\ more specifically the reservation of chickamauga and chattanooga national military park. one of the small national park service areas part of the missionary ridge battlefield, of the larger chickamauga and chattanooga national military park. the veterans get congress to establish in august 1890 chickamauga and chattanooga national military park as the first such public area in the u.s.. subsequently, the battlefield of antietam charlotte, gettysburg and -- shiloh,

gettysburg and vicksburg will be created. with its units at the chickamauga battlefield, on lookout mountain and on missionary ridge still tells the story. a vital story in the course of our nation's history. an important part of deciding how the civil war turned out. you can read about our country's history in books but here you can walk the ground where those decisions were made. here on the chattanooga battlefield you are mostly in an urban environment. you can still stand near where ulysses s. grant stood. look at that profile of missionary ridge. understanding little about the difficulties he faced in dealing with the confederates on that formidable piece of terrain. and then seeing, amazed, the

union troops charge up the slope. you can drive along crest road and see the monuments along the crest of missionary ridge marking where troops were stationed. and marvel at how the union troops charged up the slopes of missionary ridge. >> our live coverage continues on american history tv from farmville, virginia. in the closing of the civil war seminar, cosponsored by longwood university and appomattox national historical park. they are about to resume coverage live on c-span three. patrick: we will keep this going next year and every year and the future. we will not do another three-day event. it will go back to saturday and as soon as we can figure out the schedule for longwood spring

break and the availability of jarmon auditorium here we will get it down on the counter so folks can make plans. we're going to go ahead and have dr. coles introduce our next speaker. dr. coles: our second speaker is casey clabough. casey is a professor at lynchburg college and editor of the james dickey review and is english graduate director. a richmond native who grew up and appomattox county, he has editor of the multivolume "best creative nonfiction of the south," "texas review press" and a variety of other things. one of the editors of the encyclopedia of virginia, which is online.

he's had a number of fellowships and received a number of awards. he has published over 100 works in anthologies and periodicals such as the sewanee review, the virginia quarterly review and so on. author of " confederados: a novel of the americas." the confederates that left the u.s. at the end of the war and went to brazil. i remember from 30 or 40 years ago reading an article about that. bill maybe wrote that and i have never heard of it and i got interested. i'm looking for to hearing his top. -- his talk. his talk today is entitled " confederados. casey clabough. [applause] professor clabough: thank you

dr. coles. thank you all for being here and for inviting me. to extend the last speaker's eloquent comment about the end of the war being a time of uncertainty, i'd like to begin with that. that is essentially the reason for the strange story of these people called, who came to be called in brazil, confederados. that is, former confederates former families, civilians soldiers administrators, who somehow ended up in brazil. it's such a dark slate in terms of history. there is only one boat in

existence, it came out in the 1990's, university of alabama press, on the subject. i would encourage students, graduate students watching and scholars watching who are interested in pan-american history as well as the civil war, this is a rich area of inquiry in which there is a lot of that still needs to be done. how did i come to it? i'm a little out of my element here an english professor among historians who writes historical fiction but did a lot of historical research for my book. for my fictional title," confederados." how does an english professor from appomattox, virginia, come to have an interest in confederados? and the answer is, marriage. [laughter]

i married a local gal from buckingham county who had an ancestor who fought in the civil war in mosby's rangers and who afterward, for various reasons was compelled -- he was a bachelor, a young guy -- was compelled to leave the country. going back to bert's comment reconstruction after the surrenders, it is a time of uncertainty. a lot of southerners were concerned, how are we going to be treated? is it going to be martial law? are we going to the hung? as one of the generals seems to hope his soldiers would be. what's going to happen? how long is martial law going to last? are we ever going to have any measure of freedom again? you have to put yourself in that

mindset to understand why there were these people desperate enough to leave the south, which they fought for desperately in many cases for several years. my wife's ancestor he got into some local trouble. through a mutual acquaintance discovered that there were virginians who were traveling to brazil. in fact, this was not a virginia phenomenon. it was something that was happening throughout the south. the reason for it was that, at least in the case of brazil, it has been advertised in newspapers in places like new

orleans, atlanta, charleston all over, by brazilian officials. the idea was that brazil, being an enormous country, it is still an enormous country, needed further development of its interior. it's government officials thought, what better immigrants to have then these confederates who have advanced agricultural knowledge compared to a lot of other perspective immigrants. obviously, are not happy with how things are going at home. so they essentially were given land grants to come to brazil. so that is the reasoning behind it. just to bring home berrtt's point,

i would like to read something briefly called it's from the virginia magazine of history and biography. "alternatives to appomattox" is the title. edited by frank j. merley. i want to read the opening paragraph. it really brings home how people were feeling and how people responded to these various surrenders and the prospect of life following the end of the confederacy. the title of the essay is "alternatives to appomattox." i am sure many of them wished there had been an alternative. "some weeks after general robert e lee surrendered at mathematics courthouse in april 1865, -- appomattox courthouse in april

1865 a disgruntled leader put a rifle in his mouth. he chose not to live in the world the war had made. many confederates shared the grim revulsion few emulated his method of escape. most came to terms as best they could with the new order ushered in by the war and attempted to revive a broad and to establish a southern presence in many parts of the world. many of these exiles remained romantic rebels, haunted strangers in strange lands many others -- talented, dedicated, determined -- made contributions to their adopted country's. coincidentally deprived of their homeland of one of its most precious resources. still others dreamed dreams and

schemed to escape the yoke of yankee domination." that line about depriving the south of resources, one other fact. people leaving are not leaving general robert e lee, when asked about the confederado question and the immigration, he wasn't this a firstly against that -- he was vociferously against that. this was symbolized when he assumed the president ship at washington college which later became washington and lee university. he thought it was important particularly for young men to remain in the south and help rebuild the country. he was against this kind of thing. for others, for various reasons the uncertainty of the postwar south, it was something that

seemed not only preferable but in some cases necessary. now, i'd like to read just a basic definition of what a confederado is. what essentially this constituted. it's kind of a confusing term. on the one hand you have former southerner,d like to confederate. you've got brazilian colonist. what really is the crux of a confederado? what is their story? this is a working definition that i used based on primary sources when i was doing research for my book. "a confederado immigrant focuses on essentially a person who left north america between 1865 in

1870 and settled in such areas as sao paulo, santarem, rio de janeiro and parana. only the settlements confederate. in santa barbara and americana were successful. it is estimated that more than 50% of those who traveled eventually return to the u.s. due to various unanticipated hardships. those who chose to remain tended to congregate around colonel william norris' settlement in the area of santa barbara and americana. first settled in 1865, the americans in this area it retained their sense of confederate identity. that is even true today. in a country of immigrant groups such as brazil, this people not only remember the confederate ancestors, but embrace heritage

as a way of distinguishing themselves from other brazilian groups. that is one thing to keep in mind as well. this is not an issue that is limited to the conclusion of the civil war and the ensuing two or three decades following. it is an ongoing narrative. every year in santa barbara there is a celebration in which confederados come together and celebrate their heritage. they play "dixie" but they sing it in portuguese. if you look at the people who are participating, a large portion of them are people of color. but they are wearing uniforms and the ladies are wearing

southern bell attire. so it's very surreal. and there's the confederate battle flag all over the place. it's a surreal kind of thing to witness in another country. these people celebrating their confederate heritage yet at the same time, having been wholly integrated into brazilian society. ethnically and liquid linguistically, and economically. yet it is important that they had this in their past. a former first lady, of president and georgia governor jimmy carter claims confederado heritage. there was a media blitz when they traveled to this festival

in the late 1970's. her family was among one of the families that returned. they did not stay. it did result in some dialogue and sound exchange programs between young people, brazilian confederados coming to spend time in the south and in georgia , contemporary georgians journeying to santa barbara to spend time among these confederados. i think that is very interesting as well. so, what was it like to be a confederado? the quote that i read mentioned the hardship and various other factors that came with the experience. it is true that slavery still existed in brazil. brazil was the last country to

abolish slavery in the 1880's. however, for any southerner hoping to acquire slaves, they would find that they could not afford them for they were much more expensive in brazil. also slavery, as an economic institution and social institution, was on the way out. as opposed to the united states, it was abolished eventually through peaceful means, within brazil. there were actually military elements that contributed to its abolishment, most notably the war of the triple alliance which involved paraguay, brazil and argentina. if a slave were to enlist in the

brazilian army for that war, he was automatically guaranteed his freedom once he had served his time as a soldier. those factors were gradually leading to the abolishment of slavery in brazil. and of course, disenfranchised southerners had not the means to assist them with labor and developing these land grants they had received from the presiding government. so, what did they do? they had to work really hard, really hard. i would compare it in american history to some of the grisly details of the jamestown settlement in its infancy. there was not cannibalism as there was at jamestown.

there were people who were literally starving at times as they tried to develop crops the bull tongue plow, for example did not exist in brazil. they were trying to make their own. trying to clear fields for crops and so forth. a lot of the time their land grants were in very remote places. even if you successfully grew something it was very difficult to get it to a place where he could be taken by rail to rio de janeiro to be in a market, the roads were really bad. they are still really bad in the world brazil. a lot of the time their land grants were in very remote the next thing i'm going to do is read a brief description from a typical confederado. this is a person who visited a confederate -- who visited a confederado.

he was a civil war veteran from tennessee. these were the living circumstances of this veteran in brazil, trying to make a go of it as a farmer. "the farmer's home was in a large clearing in the forest. at the base of a plateau that is some hundred feet above the river. all around, there were splendid masses of green trees and lime trees and great banana plants and coffee bushes in the woods. beyond those, untouched forest with the giant brazilian nut tree towering over it. the farmer says with all the beauty of this site, it evidently has a hard time of it. i still have a hard time of it i am careworn and a little discouraged. the land is excellent but the stream is too small to give me good waterpower. without that, i cannot manage a

large cane plantation. the man went on to complain that how the prices he received for his produce were not very good. the santarem traders take advantage of his helplessness, he cannot speak portuguese. it would be like an immigrant in this country. it is a huge disadvantage. all the americans are cultivating, who are cultivating sugarcane the juice is distilled into round which is sold at santarem. coffee or coconut might pay better but colonists came without money there's the disenfranchisement. they could not wait for slow going crops. the farmer tells me how he and his family were housed with the others in a great thatched building. the colonists were supported until they could locate plantations and get crops.

they had to struggle with utter poverty, work without tools, live as best they could until fields were established. he had saved a little money and bought this ground of an old indian woman, it was a small clearing with a dozen trees. the family lived in a shed until they could delay thatched house ./ the farmer had to bring provisions from santarem on his back. it was a long time before he could cut a road and longer before he had horses. he had to grind cane with a wooden mill until he could procure an iron one from the u.s. he had to get things on credit and pay a premium. horses were obtained at a sacrifice. he had been his own carpenter, everything. it was a long time before he could hire a single indian to work with. after seven years of struggle,

he finds his elf with what question -- he finds himself with what? a plantation he could not sell for one fourth of its real value because there are no buyers. a burden of debt that it will take him a long time to pay. himself, with a broken down body and discouraged heart. there you go. maybe things are not so bad in the united states after all. they were getting letters, it is not like they were living in a vacuum. they were getting letters informing the confederados of how things were preceding. reconstruction, despite its rough spots and problems, was not as bad as they had imagined, remember from the previous talk the sense of uncertainty and fear. so, this was the situation.

for some families, they could live that colonial lifestyle in it was preferable to returning to the south it was just too painful for them to return. 50% chose to return because of scenarios like the one i just shared with you. it was just too difficult to make a living in brazil. at that, i asked patrick about this and he thought it was ok, considering the topic is so unexamined and many of you might have questions about it. opening the floor a little earlier and then may be returning to some more reading later. please if you have any questions, come up to the

microphone at this time. >> thank you, casey, for enlightening us. i see people with questions but i am going to preempt them and ask the first question. did you in your life make a pilgrimage to brazil? while researching your book. second question, is there an account of the number of confederados in brazil today? professor clabough: the answer to the first question is yes. i was fortunate to get a research travel grant from the brazilian government to spend a couple weeks down there. i was not able to go to santa barbara and see the festival firsthand.

there is video footage of it which i have seen, but i was more interested in tracing the ancestor's footsteps. he, as well as most of the confederados had come into port at rio de janeiro. the government house them for a while, as it had the tennessee gentlemen. in the ancestor's case, he had gone to the state essentially would be comparative to west virginia of brazil. so very rugged very poor, very run-down. it's called espirito santo and its main city is linhardees. i it was not a glamour trip.

i spent a lot of time writing around on back roads. i got some fascinating pictures of anacondas. one of them ended up on the back of the book. they were sunning themselves. with regard to the other question, historians still disagree about how many confederados and their families, how many southerners and their families went to brazil and other countries. it kind of goes back to ron wilson's question to the last speaker about paroles or the lack thereof. to some extent, to the conclusion of many modern wars records are sketchy. there are diasporas of people

huge movements of people going every which way. given that chaotic element it is hard to put a number on how many southerners actually migrated. today it is estimated, brazil has a large population similar to that of the u.s. so it is less than 1%, perhaps .5% of the entire population, a small minority. >> is this microphone on? my name is james, i am from williamsburg. did any of the former slaves come with their former owners to brazil? that is the first part. i got interested in this subject years ago. i understand that brazil has

nothing anywhere with the problem of race relations like the u.s. has. can you comment on those two questions? thank you. professor clabough: sure. the first question, yes. in some cases, former slaves did a company -- former slaves did a company families to brazil. that immediately became a thorny issue given that they had technically, in terms of, as far as the u.s. government was concerned, been freed in north america. and then arriving in brazil, there was no real means to re-enslave them that the government was willing to get involved with. so, yes, in some cases african-americans did travel

with the families that formerly had owned them to brazil. but they were not slaves. they essentially just worked with the family or eventually went their own way. as opposed to the second question, brazil most definitely had, and to this day is much more open and accommodating in terms of its various ethnicities . that has to do with the development of the country itself. you had portuguese, you had a very strong indigenous presence and then the people, the colonists that had initially developed brazil were from all over -- europe, even into north africa. you had italian, germans, even

turkish immigrants.. then you throw in the indigenous peoples of brazil and african-americans brought in for slave labor and you have got an ethnic pool that is more diverse than the u.s. and more used to working together. they also, they were also bonded and still are to an extent by common religion. the catholic church had a very strong presence there. >> hi, i am george. i do not have a question but a quick story. a friend of mine who is a world bank representative in brazil we vacationed last summer

together. she told us a story about sitting next to a supreme court justice, it might have been the chief justice and brazil -- a blond haired and blue-eyed woman who was perfectly portuguese in her language. but reminded my friend of having a southern type of hospitality and heirs about her. as they got talking, it turns out that this woman was a confederado descendent. a woman who has ascended to the top of the judicial food chain in brazil but retains her southern culture. .i thought that was pretty fascinating. professor clabough: that is interesting. brazil is different from other south american countries in a number of respects. it is a strong economic power, it is a very large country now. you go there and i have been in other places in central america,

south america, where it is kind of strange to see someone with blonde hair and blue eyes. it is really not that strange in brazil and argentina as well. just because there is a long tradition of northern european immigration to those areas. thank you for that story. >> i am william, former captain at hampden sydney college and a farmville resident. i've heard you speak before and i want to make a comment about a local confederado theme here. i am a retired southern presbyterian minister. in 1867, the southern presbyterian denomination established its foreign mission

field in brazil. now, this was not, as it turned out, an evangelical approach to the native population or to protestants whistling to proselytize from the roman catholic church. the reality is, and i speak to this because the presbyterian seminary was located at hampden sydney there were several of our initial southern presbyterian evangelical missionaries who went to brazil in the late 1860's. not to convert but essentially to be a chaplaincy presence two people who had immigrated as confederados. there was a strong appeal by a theology professor who had been on the stonewall jackson staff to get some people from this area to go to brazil as confederados.

he made an especially strong appeal to mrs. thornton, who lived over here on beech street because her husband had been killed at sharpsburg. lee visited her home in farmville. but she had 4 young boys. he said they had their best chance to get out of here and go to brazil. the local minister told him to leave parishioners alone. the reality is that southern presbyterian denomination opened up a foreign mission field in brazil but it was really to be a chaplaincy outreach to our kind of people there. professor clabough: thank you. >> i had a quick question.

do you think the majority of the people left for political reasons? not wanting to live under yankee rule or was it economics, perhaps hoping to establish a slave institution in brazil or elsewhere? do you have information about the states that they were more likely to have left? deep south like alabama or mississippi or upper south? i would think it would be deep south but i am guessing. professor clabough: let me start with your last question. yes, it was predominantly deep south states where the brazilian government advertised. the ports lended themselves to transportation to brazil as well. there were some virginians and they would have left from

norfolk. there was a man from lynchburg who was sort of the point person for gathering people interested i travelingn to brazil. in terms of your other question, that's more difficult -- economics versus politics. i would say again the fact that the brazilian government was offering land grants, you could essentially go and have free land to work. obviously that was a draw to people who had been disenfranchised by the war. at the same time, that was accompanied by, even if you had trepidation, it was accompanied by the post-surrender uncertainty.