would offer you money to desert from the confederate army and come into the union lines with your weapons. they would pay you to bring your weapon in, and then they would provide you transportation anywhere you wanted to go after you signed an oath of allegiance. so, you have those two forces working against the confederate army. that being said, the army -- while it does get smaller and smaller constantly, it is not of such a vast number, because lee still begins his campaign with 60,000 men, and then, of course, will surrender almost 30,000. with the fighting that goes along the way, the french leave, which is desertion of going through a common area, but melting away from the army to get supplies from home, and to return to the army eventually. all of that factors in. i do not have an exact percentage. my bad. i appreciate it -- to i very

much for being here for the leadoff. [applause] david: thanks. great questions. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> american history tv recently visited longwood university. next michael gordon talks about richmond in 1865 and what historians can learn from photographs. his talk is just under an hour. >> our next speaker is michael gordon. he did a great presentation. amazing photographs. you will see more of them today. he grew up in richmond. working for the national park service. he has been a permanent ranger and historian and richmond national battlefield park since 2003. one thing he is well known for

his his website, civil war richmond. i tell my students there are so much junk and garbage online in terms of civil war sources, this is one of the best websites relating to the civil war i have ever seen. i got a lot of good stuff from mike's website. definitely go see that. he served as a technical advisor on the set of "lincoln." and is serving as an advisor for "free state jones," which is coming out with matthew mcconaughey. i yesterday got the magazine of

virginia history and biography. the new issue is on lincoln's visit to richmond at the end of the war. there is an excellent article. the talk this evening is on photo forensics. richmond, 1865. please welcome him. michael gorman: i am miced up. can anybody hear me? i hate podiums. i would like to gather up all of the podiums in the world and pitch them over a cliff. that and soprano saxophones. but that is another story. first things first. was anybody here for the last time i spoke in 2010? wow. newbies and veterans. this is great. i was thinking about, what did i talk about in 2010? i don't remember. this is a completely new taking

what i love to do, picking apart the photographs. finding the stories within them. there are over 500 images i could show you. i am showing you about 60. if you want more, we will hang out sometime and do that. photo forensics. you might also call this a love letter to the library of congress. the reason is, in 2000 three or so, the library of congress digitized their original negatives and put them online with stupid resolution. you can go in and see individual blades of grass. this has mobilized what we do as historians, especially visual historians. you have the same memory as me. how did you approach the civil war?

the golden book. remember that? i must have spent hours looking at the maps. every single one would have a view of ruins of richmond. where? it is a big town. what are we looking at? as i got older, it was easy for me to morph that childish curiosity into a historian's position. it is great because it pays the bills. you might describe this as professional geekery. i want to show you this money meant to my lack of a life. a map that shows all the shooting locations for the firms that visited richmond. you can see a lot of the trends that brought photographers into richmond. all the photographers on the east coast were flocking to richmond.

we just told you about petersburg. petersburg and richmond. are you wondering why there is no photograph of lee surrendering to grant? the obvious one, the shot of the century, the greatest photograph there never was. because every photographer in the east had made their way to richmond and was there when lee surrendered to grant. sorry, appomattox folks. we win. it is right in here, can we bring down the lights? how do we make these images? there we go. back then, almost all photographs made during the civil war were made in 3-d. the process, you have seen them. they are called stereo views.

remember these? you are geeks, too. when you look in those coming can see in 3-d. first, you have two explosions -- to expose the plate. that is what the actual negative looks like. two images, slight variations. your left eye versus your right eye. a little bit more over here. slightly different images. they are going to take that, develop it, print it, and mounted on the stereo card which is how it would be sold. this width right here is three inches. that is how you would have seen them in 1865. small. tiny.

you would see it in 3-d, which is cool. some day, i will have to come back and do my 3-d show. we will use these as documents themselves. by blowing them up and seeing what the photographer saw. this is about as close as we will get to a time machine. yeah, this is a staged photograph red look at these guys. you think they were just hanging around it just like that? these kids just stop where they were. and look at these guys, the soldiers. oh geez, there is a been going on over there. a lot of them are doing their napoleon. this is what they wanted you to see. the things i love, and we will play with this over and over again, are things that don't go well.

like this. a kid with a dog doing what dogs do. the kit is trying to keep him still, but it doesn't work. he is blurry. these guys are in the picture but not the kid with the dog. you have the guys looking back at us in 1865. they have captured richmond. they are part of the garrison forces. this photograph was probably made after lincoln was assassinated. this is that window in time. why don't we start where i often work. why not? the ironworks. this is the main visitor center for the richmond battlefield national park.

the most reproduced in of the ironworks. you see an awful lot that is important. this is after the evacuation fire. jefferson davis got the famous telegram. on the way outcome of the confederates set fire to warehouses and factories and it got out of control. when i refer to the evacuation fire, that is what i am talking about. the fire that occurred on april, 1865. you can see some of the ruins over here. but the ironworks remained intact. lucky for them. also over here on the left of the image, go back, come on. ok. imagine that incredible shot this is the laboratory building.

it had a wooden structures. that is where they were making things explosive. powder. everything was coming off of there. it escaped the fire. which was ironic, because in 1863, it did blow up because of a workers accident. a little girl working there caused an explosion that killed 69 colleagues. over there, the laboratory, now, it is intact. what is cool about this, especially from today's standpoint, you have all the sites you can see. begun foundry which is now the american civil war museum. the merger with the museum of the confederacy.

the unfinished roof, that is where i work. it is cool to see a place you are familiar with in an 1865 photograph. that is chock of exhibits and displays. this one like i say, kind of annoys me. i prefer this one, up on the richmond and petersburg embankment. this thing here is a burned out gate onto a bridge which is burned out as well. you are looking over the ruins of the confederate arsenal or armory. this is essentially be warmaking heart of the confederacy. without this, without what you are looking at in this image there is no war. it is that simple. now you are overlooking these ruins after the fire. i like blowing things up. that sounded wrong, didn't it? [laughter]

you know what i meant. now you can see the laboratory buildings. you really get a sense for orderliness, cleanliness. to show you how almost insanely clear these things are, remember these negatives are about this big. the lens is this egg. they are getting deep focus without necessarily intending to. you can see about a mile away, james monroe's tomb. you cannot do this today. that is what enables us to reach inside these images. look deeper. find the story. all right.

nearby. the photographers went across the river. there are the apartment's -- abutments of the bridge. they took the shot which i love. look at these people. think about the week they have had. these are african-americans, probably former slaves. you think they were just sitting there, having a picnic when the photographer rolled up? this is completely put together. what is powerful about this. the photographers considered themselves not photographers like we consider ourselves. they are trying to show you something, but it is their art. we had to take them on their terms and understand this is not documentarian, this is art. the ruined bridge.

the ironworks. see it back there? this is send you a message. who is out front now? he has definitely got a message here. reminding you this. this is the current issue. art. propaganda, sure. does that surprise you? i am ok with it. what we might consider neutral journalism did not exist back then. moving on, nearby to belle isle. i'm sure some of you have encountered bell isle before. these were the big confederate prisons. i cannot resist putting this in

my show, even though it is 1860 three. -- 1863. this is a wartime image of richmond. it drives me crazy. they photographer climbed this hill. and got an amazing view. but look in the background. this is downtown. downtown richmond. it is going to burn. easy bit in the background. his negatives do not survive. cannot blow this thing up. i can just pick things out in the hazy mist. there is the two building flour mill. on the right, the confederate capital. it is actually acting as the capitol. you can see the laboratory and the railroad ridge, long before it turned to cinders. in 1865, another photographer got up there. took almost the exact same to view. two years later. you can see the gun overlooking the camp.

all the downtown we just described. over here, right there, that is all that is left of the mammoth flour mills. the state capitol overlooking the city of ruin. the bridge is gone. photographers found belle island attractive. what greater message could you send? you climb this hill to get this view of that. symbolic confederate capital. this is propaganda. you are going to say, we didn't

know about the terrors and starvation at bill isle. you knew. you could see it from the hill. that is the message. you think he just happened to plop down his camera? think that was an accident? you think he just happened to come across some buddy weeping in the grave in the cemetery? of course not. that is his assistant. this is the belle isle cemetery. this is grabbing at heart and twisting. i understand the art. what intrigues me is some of you might be able to see, write in here, we have a legible tombstones. you can read them. actual men who died on belle isle. buried side-by-side and removed to the richmond national cemetery.

you can go and see their graves today. i love that they are still to each other. i find that stuff fascinating. they are there and you can see them today, always intrigues me. this one makes me angry. the reason is there is not one photograph of the ring of forts, enormous forts, that surrounded richmond during the war. this cameraman went up a hill, 100 feet up a hell, and stood with his back to one of the forts. turnaround. tries me crazy. if you took this relatively

mundane shot of belle isle from the south side. determined to make lemonade out of lemons, there is a nice skyline. here is treasure. there it is. right there is my visitor center. our desk is right in there. you have the foundry building. the big smokestack. the armory mill. moving up the hill, second presbyterian church. a famous preacher preached there. when jackson came to richmond, he attended two services there but they will tell you all about it forever. my favorite building of all time is in this shot. pratt castle. i love insane architecture.

he made his bones as a photographer, before the civil war. built this actual castle up there. very mad architecture. glass panes in secret rooms. let's talk about it. don't you want one? i do. can you imagine this in the winter? talk about ostentatious. apparently, he designed it himself.

photographers came here to shoot, not just because it is a prominent hill, but because they knew who he was. at least one photographers saw the possibilities of this turret. alexander gardner got up there on april 6. made a panorama. thanks to the magic of powerpoint, i'm going to show you left to right in 1865.

if this doesn't do it for you, i can't really help you. there is the spotswood hotel and the customs house. look at everything else, gone. the big canal basin. the richmond and petersburg and bank. on the right, the armory. i think it has seen better days. there is the laboratory. if he had taken one more stinking plate, over to the right would be the islands. but i can't complain. think how long it would take to make five plates and to do it again in stereo. some poor slob is going to have to run that down to start developing it. run up a fresh plate. you are talking all day. truly a feat of photography. we talked about the canal basin,

the basin for the james river canal. photographers found the possibility of this thing irresistible. a big lake, three blocks wide, right in the middle amongst the ruins. you can see why you would want to take a shot from there. wow. this, if u.s. army, is the shot you are looking for. for the photographers, this is money. why? right there. it is almost impossible during the civil war to photograph motion. the reason is the exposure time of these photographs could be as long as 10 seconds. anything moving is going to blur. for the flag, it has to hold in

place. you're are strolling around looking at the other national archives images. you notice something in the corner. somebody has seen my show before. what this is is a nasty dead horse. floating in the canal basin. i'm not pointing this out to be gross. this horse told me something. the theme of this talk is photo forensics. and i will show you what you mean. take a look at the horse. now watch. wow. he was over there and now he is here. what have we got? two different images. with the photographer is doing is what you would do if you were trying to get the shot. did we get it?

we will try to take it again. maybe 0.5 minutes between the shots. the wind is also pushing the horse across the canal basin. you think to yourself, i have two shots from the same place within seconds of each other. here we go, folks. motion. from the civil war. nothing to it, folks. >> is it still alive? michael gorman: if it is still alive, somebody put it out of its misery. you can see this door opening forever. little things happening.

look at the wind, blowing through the trees. little bits of life. the difference of 30 seconds or maybe a little more between the shots. the life coming right back at you through the window in time. these are not people putting on napoleons. this is accidental. they don't know they are being photographed. they certainly don't know some geek is going to come along 150 years later and make a movie out of it. capitol square, what could be more symbolic than this? come on, this is the tangible symbol that the war is coming to a close.

everybody needs the shot of the capital. what i find entertaining is somebody you have heard about is in the image. matthew brady. brady by this time, we think he was suffering from a sight problem but that is ok. his name was synonymous with photography. you would actually say, i'm going to have my brady made. i do a good talk, but i don't think you're ever going to say i'm going to do a gorman. it is like the where's waldo of the civil war. he loves to put himself in the image. it becomes fun to pick him out. the long, black coat.

we will see him again. capitol square was and is a photographic mecca. you have to take a picture of the governor's mansion. look at that. the trees are starting to come into bloom. a bit of a trick. there he is. this one, there is so much to like. gardner's crew shooting towards old city hall. a crowd of union soldiers

resting in the trees. here they all are. hanging out, chilling out. what is going on here? two pantless yankees running round capitol square? i bet some of you are wondering, what is going on? me, too. the focus is just out enough so you do not get much better when you blow it up. there are only so many letter combinations that could make that happen, so i sat down with an adult beverage and said, i'm going to figure it out. i came up with it, folks. it translates to, keep off the grass. do not sleep. the groundskeeper must have been having a bad day. there they are, just hanging out in capitol square. we think this was taken two days

before lincoln's assassination. a lot is going to change. they don't know that yet. same situation, same day. the washington monument on capitol square. anybody know why this is important to confederate symbolism? it is the confederate seal. if you look at the seal of the confederate states of america, that is it. a statue of george washington. both sides wrapped themselves in revolutionary war symbolism. here you have union and confederate soldiers milling about on capitol square, some back from appomattox. just calm. they have taken their parole. what i love about this, so much so that i cannot get over this. he moved the camera about five

feet. i could kick him for this. you can see the crafting of an image by looking at this one made shortly after. watch the hand of the artist. which one is better? he was really working for this. would you stand up, sir? how about on your arm? constructing a scene, just like a painter would. exactly like a painter. when i look at this, it did resemble a painting. something very familiar. ok. how about this? am i going to sit here and tell you seraut was a photo geek and looked at the photo?

no, but it is the same principles that will debate a painter. they are exactly the same. look at it all. the strong central vertical. this one with her skirt out. the creepiest one, this guy on his arm. same principles. it is art, not a document. libby prison. the most photographed building in richmond without a doubt. the problem i have is there are 100 or more shots and most of them are of this. i could go on. i find that corner annoying, but

it is important to understand. it is completely overdone. let's see some of the more interesting bits which do not show that corner. this one brought at extreme personal expense. the negative does not survive, even though it should. some pool probably dropped it along the line and it shattered into one million pieces. the only way to do it is to buy an original, which i did. what i love about this, let me blow it up. the only good reason for this. i talked about how this is art. in this case, it is documenting something. showing the important sites of the libby prison escape. the largest prison break ever

read 109 men escaped through a title. they popped up behind the building. everyone of them escaped out that door. no other reason for that door to be in the shot. he is giving us the details and gave us gold. sadly, only geeks like me get to see it. there is what i am talking about. the prison, the tunnel, the door. all in the same image. my favorite view by far is of the notorious corner. here we have -- if anybody wants to show you how sweet smelling

and lovely it would have been in the past, remember these. try to keep that perspective in mind. more than a squad, a group of union soldiers outside libby prison. there is a guy resting in the window. kids sitting there. a wonderful shot that shows real-life happening at libby window. if you are like me, you're looking at the rest of the images and you see a change. i feel a movie coming on. i am obsessed with these kids. let's take a look. i have never looked that cool in a photograph ever. these kids are so cool, i made them my mascot. they are on my website. the kid on the left, you look at

him. you look at this long enough. you start to wonder about what were their lives like. the kid on the left, i think he is a lollipop guild candidate for sure. this one blew my mind. it is marlon brando. same pose. he's got his hand there, too cool for school. everybody is saying, brando is the wild one. he's got him beat by 100 years. those kids, i wish i knew who they were. think about their lives, all they have known has been war. st. john's church. who knows why it is important?

give me liberty or give me death, or whatever he actually said. a lot of the photographers were taking this to show people of the north, this is it. so much so, brady could not resist and put himself in the image. st. john's church. mission accomplished. we also have these kids. let's put them against the wall's will stand still. a lot of clues show you why it is such a cool shot. the negative box for brady's crew. that is his darkroom wagon. who doesn't know a kid just like that?

all his buddies are against the wall. he is in front with a big grin. the reason they are up against the wall is because they were trying to keep the kids still. so they could be photographed. did it work? this guy is a horror show. he has two faces. every single one of them is moving. they are doing what kids do. they could not be still for five seconds. there are my children of st. john's church. but wait, there is more. i've got you. just in.

you want to see the kids up close? i find this interesting. he appears and disappears. why? i don't know. there they go. now they put them all in there like they are a criminal line up. there is the grinning kid, he has been disciplined. all right. this is the image that launched a thousand ships, as far as i am concerned. the first time i was able to make an important point using an image. this has been reproduced 100 times. the caption is, hollywood cemetery. does this look like hollywood cemetery to you? no. me neither.

i was like, i don't know. on the right, you will see you can read the headboards. george dawson. i thought i would match him on the register and he is not there. just on a whim, i cracked the oakwood cemetery roster. there he is. this was the first time i was able to say, these captions are not necessarily correct. we need to find the real story so we know what this is. it is important to know. you can visit private dawson's grave and stand with the photograph and match it up. that was the first one i did. the rest is history. all right. we will bring this ship in. i'm going to put this out there. nobody has seen it before. until last week, i had never seen it. this image was on the library of congress site for years and

years. i could not place it in major catalogs. i got the location. you can see the engine on the tracks. we are close to the richmond and petersburg depot. last week, you will notice fires are still burning. this was very soon thereafter. two weeks ago, my friend bob sent me one of these over the transom e-mails. attached was an e-mail from a guy named hathaway. i instantly recognized this is a panorama. here is the original image. here is the new one.

blending them together, you have for the first time ever the panorama just west of the richmond petersburg railroad. i don't know why he took it, but it is cool and you are the first to see it. this is what i live for. finding these things, putting them together. putting them in context geographically and also timewise. this proves hathaway was probably the first photographer into richmond. it was probably made april 4 1865. that means abraham lincoln was probably in town when he was making the photograph.

go somewhere and take a picture of him. that is the greatest picture there never was. can you imagine, abraham lincoln on the steps of the capitol? but it did not happen. downtown richmond, at least the part where the evacuation fire occurred, this looks like berlin. it gives people the impression that all of richmond burned out. wrong. don't believe that. if you are a photographer, are you going to want to take pictures of this or the untouched houses? i know what i'm going to pick. we do it today. we have tanks rolling into baghdad. we don't want to see the order and peacefulness. this is visual. this is what you want. you will see this particular ruin. and then this door like thing. you have seen that before. countless times. there is the wall. i was able to find the original caption. view of ruins, richmond, from main street.

lee's army still on the field. lincoln still very much alive. all of this, that big week has yet to occur with the exception of the evacuation of richmond. how many have seen the caption women mourning the deaths of the confederacy? they are still out there. the confederacy is not dead. they are just wearing dark dresses. they could be in mourning for all i know, but it shows how far we go to make ourselves the story. nearby was the ruins of the exchange bank. it was one of several that burned during the evacuation fire. it is a pretty boring shot until you dig in. you will see civil war soldier graffiti.

a cartoon of two guys boxing. one is described as u.s. grant. this is nothing new. we do it today. direct connection to the past. gardner's folks, gardner was politically active and an abolitionist. when he constructed this image he is definitely making a statement. look at this. are you going to say he is not a man? that the family around his feet are somehow less than yours? they may not have shoes like you. but they want the same things. could you even imagine a more patriarchal scene than this? i would love to have my family like that.

he is pointing at the northern people, saying, this is what it has been about. from an abolitionist point of view, this is powerful. that is why gardner's images are interesting. he is always trying to needle in a political point and in this case it is right between the eyes. coming to the end, the white house of the confederacy. which i'm sure some of you have visited. it is open to the public. you can only really shoot it from this angle. that is a problem now, because if you match it up, all you see are the hospital buildings. he has constructed a man standing next to the light pole. brady himself. there he is again. i'm not so much interested in

mr. brady as who is in the house. the union commander in richmond is major general -- if anybody is casting about, that could work for your grandchild. time to come back. look at the caption. wife and child at the mention -- mansion formerly occupied by jeff davis. on the doorway is the table on which the surrender is signed. it is now a photographic prop. look at the girls, daddy's knee and mother posture -- mother's chair. she is locked in. she gets in the photograph. some thing else, the preoccupation with the cardiovascular health. i don't understand this gesture. look how they solved the problem of keeping the little girl still. put your head on daddy's shoulder. ord is not going to escape my joking is.

here he is with his staff, on the back porch of the confederacy white house. you will find a slightly different shot. we have a movie coming on. this fascinates me on a number of levels. look at this guy's pants. untucked, tucked. why? what was so important about it? it is neat to see. you are watching the construction of the image. put your hands in your pockets. you get that sense, the

construction of art. this is the only chance we get to see inside with the artist, the photographer, was thinking. let's wrap it up at the lee house. which has got some great stuff. once lee arrived in richmond kind of bad timing. he arrived on april 15, 1865. bad day to be showing up in richmond. the news of lincoln's death is crossing the globe. interesting point, and i cannot prove they are connected, but the news was embargoed a whole day. it did not get to richmond until april 16. i believe the reason was they wanted to make sure he got into the city without incident. one can imagine a scenario where he was met by a hostile crowd. all the photographers could do

he has all the windows shut. the first news he gets, he comes back to this house. the end of his military career. he takes off his uniform and hugs his wife. and then somebody comes and tells him the president is dead. can you imagine? he is not seeing anybody until matthew brady shows up and convinces him, one last time, to put on the uniform and show the world. if matthew brady is photographing you behind your home, it is over. this is the general working with brady to deliberately construct an image that will go around the world. what is interesting about this it is funny. every guy knows, white socks

black shoes. don't do it. that's probably why in the margin, the photographer scratched, don't use. look at them constructing the image together. the general doesn't look particularly good, so don't use it. let stand him up and get one that is better. not quite there, though. move sir, thank you. just so the head is in the middle of the cross. the image that has gone around the world. even this has a forensic secret. the devil is in the details. some angry union soldier scratched here, devil. the image was scratched april 20. there were union soldiers that felt that way about lee. sure. remember how we felt after 9/11?

scared, fearful, angry? same thing. that is what we and brady are conspiring to take on. it is over. you don't have to hurt us anymore. so, these images, as we have seen time and again, it is so easy to focus on lee or grant. when you look at with the eyes we can, you can see people who look like us. you and me. once and aspirations and dreams for the future, just like you and me. all you've got to do is go to the library of congress, the national archives, and look. you will see a world that looks like ours. people that look like us. sometimes, well -- a little too much like us. [laughter] thank you very much.

[applause] >> now you can see why i say that is one of the coolest civil war programs. a couple of questions? >> hi, i am susan. we were fortunate enough to see your 3-d at the civil war roundtable. i have to tell you, it is one of the best shows we have ever had. i read the article that patrick was referring to in the virginia historical society magazine. finished it last night. michael gorman: what did you think? >> i loved it. michael gorman: did you get your check?

>> not yet. i heard you say it was in the mail. my question is, you were talking about lincoln coming into the city. the difficulties they had trying to find a place for him to land. you indicated they came into a sand barge. from the pictures we just saw, was that sand barge in any of those pictures? michael gorman: she is referring to when lincoln and his entourage were coming to the city, nobody knew where to go or land. they put him in a sand barge which is the most humble thing you can imagine a president coming in.

i did not included in the show which i'm kicking myself for. when i get off the stage, track me down and i will show you the image. it is literally just a sand bar. nobody saw him and then every buddy saw him. any other questions? lincoln or otherwise? again folks, i hope you enjoyed it. thank you for coming. enjoy the rest of the seminar. [applause] >> the civil war eras here every saturday at 6:00 and 10:00 p.m. eastern time. to watch anymore civil war programming anytime go to our website, c-span.org/history. you're watching american history tv. all weekend, every weekend on c-span 3.

>> with live coverage of the house on c-span and the senate on c-span2, here on c-span3, we complement that coverage by showing you relevant congressional hearings and public affairs events. and on the weekends, c-span3 is the home to american history tv, including six unique series. the civil war american artifacts, touring museums and historic sites to discover what artifacts reveal about america from past. history's bookshelf, with the best-known history writers. the presidency, looking at the policies of our commanders in chief. lectures in history, with top college professors delving into the past. and our new series reel america, featuring archival films from the 1960's and 19 70's. watch us in hd. like us on facebook. follow us on twitter. this sunday on q&a, eric larson

on his book "dead wake," the last sinking of the lusitania. erik larson: the question is what happened to the lusitania? why was it allowed to enter without escort, without the kind of detailed warrants that could have been provided to the captain, but was not. this is led to very interesting speculation that that was the ship essentially set up for attack by church hill or someone in the admiralty. it's interesting. i found no smoking memo, and believe me i would have found a smoking memo. there was nothing from churchill or shush her or anyone saying, let's let