sturgeon. >> we do need strong and effective controls on imkbrags. we need to make sure that people don't get away with abusing the systems that the rest of us pay for. we need to recognize parts of the uk that with housing and public services. the answer to that is investing more in home and public services and enforcing a decent minimum wage, not in scapegoating immigrants. i think the views of the westminster parties on this issue has been driven by fear rather than national debate. here's some facts that we need to beer in mind. eu immigrants are contributor to the uk public finances. the majority of migrants work. the majority of those who don't work are students. and let's also not forget that hundreds of thousands of writtish citizens go to live in other countries. how would we feel if they were spoken about or treated in the way that migrants are often here. let's have a debate, let's not

duck the issues. let's make sure it's a civil debate, not driven by nigel farage. >> david cameron. >> thank you for your question. what we need in our country is to recognize that people who come here and work hard and contribute to our companies and communities, they help make this a great company. but we need immigration controlled and fair. and in recent decades it has been too high. i would like to see it come down. we've reduced the immigration outside the eu. but inside the eu not because we've created more jobs than the rest of the union put together, immigration has been very high. we need to bring that under control. here are the proposals that i'll put in place as prime minister. first if you're coming from the european union wu won't get unemployment benefits. if you've within here six month's don't have a job, you'll have to come home. third, if you come here and work you'll have to work four years paying into the system.

and finally if you leave your family at home you won't be able to send child benefit back to your family at home. those are fair changes that i can deliver. >> david cameron thank you. nigel farage. >> i told you at the start they were all the same and they all agree. they should be part of the european union. as members of the eu what can we do to control immigration. let me tell you. nothing. nothing. the prime minister can talk about benefits. this isn't about benefits. this is about numbers. we have a total open door to ten former communist countries and to the euro zone where people are suffering very badly. i don't blame a single immigrant that comes here wanting to better their lot. it's depressed wages. we have to build a new house, one house every seven minutes just to cope with current level of immigration. we need to change the relationship with europe. one of trade and friendship. take back control of our borders

and put in place an australian style point system and 77% of british people want something down. >> nigel farage thank you. nick clegg. >> i will never spread fear about immigration because i think we just need to remember there's basically good immigration and there's bad immigration. in a bad immigration of course that needs to be stopped. that's why i've introduced new checks for the border to bare down on illegal immigration. people now want to seek benefits, they have to learn english. there's also good immigration. we should remine a generous open hearted nation who wants to come here and pay their taxes, create jobs. if we turn everybody away the nhs would collapse overnight. so i guess my approach could be summarized a this. i want britain to be open for business but not open to abuse.

>> nick clegg thank you. natalie bennett. >> in turns of european immigration, we celebrate the immigration. many britains have been able to take advantage of that to do what they want with their life. that's a real plus. but if we think about non-eu immigration we need a controlled, fair humane system. that's not what we've got now. take one example that the fact that a quarter are of the appeals, people who have often been victims of torture in their own country, these people would come here for yearance eventual eventually say yea you are a refugee after all. when people talk to me about immigration they're concerned about three things low wages crowded schools and hospitals and housing problems. all of those are important critical issues we need to deal with but they're not caused by immigration. they're caused by failures of government policy.

>> natalie bennett. thank you. i'll turn to david cameron as we open up now after your opening statements to the debate to pick up on natalie bennett's point that she puts across the immigration is to be celebrated. >> i think the choice really boils down to this. nigel is saying there's nothing you can do inside the european you on give up and leave, ed doesn't want to renegotiate anything in europe, regroesh yat all together i say get the changes we need and put those in a referendum to the british people by the end of 2017. i've sat around the table in europe and negotiated for britain. you can get things done. i've set out what i want to get done so we can sort out the immigration issue once and for all. >> ms. merkel who is the real boss made it perfectly clear that you can negotiation lots of things over the next couple of years but you cannot renegotiate

the free movement of people in the european union. and that's back ud up by the overwhelming majority of the european parliament. do you accept or not that free movement is not up for discussion. >> i don't accept that. >> really? >> look at my track record. >> i have. >> people said it was imboss nl. we cut the european budget. i said let's get out of the bailout funds where british tax murn was being put in countries like greece. instead of giving

kick me out if i fail to deliver. i suggest you do. but he failed on that promise and he's going to make the promise again. it's falls solutions from nigel farage. i want to be frank with people. it will be a disaster for jobs and families and businesses. let's change europe so it works better for us including immigration but let's not sacrifice jobs businesses and families. >> nick clegg. >> first i'd say the freedom to move around the european union should not be the freedom to claim benefits on the first day you arrive, no questions asked. secondly, sit a two-way street. there are almost as many brits living and working elsewhere in the european union than there

are here. and if you want to make sure that our own youngsters get the jobs we've got to train them up. one of the things i'm most proud of is that we've now got 2 million people starting apprentice ships. the biggest increase in apprentice ships. and over half of those are women starting apprenticeships. train up our workers so they get the jobs they apply for. >> that makes an important point. if you want to control immigration, you've got to have an education system that turns out young people that can do the jobs that our economy is creating. you've got to have a welfare system that makes sure the worker is paid. and you've got to have the immigration changes that i've been talking about. it's not simply about what happens in europe. when i think of what we inherited, we had bogus colleges handing out visa. we've shut them down. people who could claim benefits literally on arhode island.

we had people appealing in our courts against decisions made here. there are changes you can make if you make this a priority. >> nicola sturgeon. >> diversity is one of our greatest strengths. i can see that as we look out into the audience. decisions on immigration should be driven on what is good for the economy. the problem is that it's been led by nigel farage is it's leading to wrong decisions. when david came to office e abolished the post study visa. it's making the universities more difficult for them to attract international students. but i also means that we deprive ourselves of the economic contribution of young foreign students that we've helped to educate here. it makes no sense. and the last point i make is changes need tore made in the european union, surely the best thing to do is build alliances

to make those changes. it's better to try to work together for that change. >> leanne wood. >> i think uk has shown their true colors tonight. all of this immigration talk is all about pulling out of the eu. now i recognize there are many problems with the eu but with benefits of being a member ap and i won't say that if there is a referendum on the future membership of britain into the eu, then the board should be taken separately in each of the four countries so that if we are to pull out, it only happens when all four countries agree so you don't just have the biggest nation pulling everyone out. >> i'll come to you in a minute. natalie bennett first and then nigel farage. >> i would partly agree with nicola but i disagree with her that this is a debate about economics.

first of all it's a debate about human lives. if you look at one particular aspect of our policy now, if you have a noneu spousal partner you have to be earning more than 18,600 pounds a year. your spousal's earnings cannot be counted. 19,000 britains can't live in their own country with their family because of that rule. a challenge to david cameron syrian refugees the u.n. asked us to take our share of the vulnerable syrian refugees. you said no we're not doing that. we're taking our own program. the last figure i saw, we had taken 143 syrian refugees. i say to you we should be taking our share of the most vun vabl. >> let me answer -- >> debate about human lives. nigel farage. >> you're quite right and i was the first person to say we

should take some syrian refugees refugees. joan's question. we've forgotten the question here. can we get some sense of history on this? if you go back even to the 1990s, from 1990 up until 1998 net migration is a measure into britain was about 40,000 a year. in the '80s, lower than that in if '50 was slightly higher. since world war ii we've operated at an average of 33 a year. it is now net 300,000 people a year. it's ten times anything this country has had to live with. and what it's meant is ordinary folks on minimum wij or not high salaries, their wages have been compressed. it is the people of britain that has paid a big price for the corporate employer yoo -- >> to raise the minimum wage. >> i want to bring in nick clegg at this point. >> i think the answer to that is to raise the minimum wage which

we're now doing. train up for apprenticeships which we've doing on a scale that we've never done before. nigel farage talks about remember history. the farage family were foreigners. i'm married to a foreign. you're married to a foreigner. let's be open hearted. >> no should we control it? >> but don't -- >> how? how. >> -- paint everybody with the brush. >> joan's question is how do you control immigration as an eu member. be honest with me. tell them the truth. >> i will exactly tell the truth. >> tell them the truth. >> the freedom could not be the same. >> that's irrelevant. >> it is not irrelevant. >> it's about movement of people. >> your problem is you see to apply anyone who is foreign and comes to this country is a menace. we must remain open minded. >> the truth is there's nothing we can do. >> david cameron said earlier

that work pays in our country. rubbish. work doesn't pay in our country. there are so many people in our country, millions of people, people watching am home tonight who cannot feed their family and make ends meet at the end of the month. if work is insee cure if work doesn't pay properly then you don't get the security that working people need. now i say we should deal with those contracts. it's an absolutely crucial part of this debate. that's what i will do. >> let me answer these quest. first of all to ed miliband we've created 2 million jobs. when he sat in the cabinet, about half a million people lost their jobs. with ed there would be zero jobs. let me take on nigel on this. you want to leave the eu. it's a very clear position. but the only way that can happen is by having a referendum. stay in, fight get a better deal but hold the ref ren dpum.

the irony for nigel's position is they vote for him and end up with miliband. >> i want to come back. >> thank you. nigel farage. thank you david cameron. >> second tame in this debate. >> i want to come back. >> thank you, david cameron. >> twice in this debate. >> thank you nigel farage. let's hear the point op syria. thank you. >> we have taken some people from syria, some of the most vulnerable people including elderly and disabled people. but the most important thing we can do in syria is maintain the fact that we're the second largest bilateral aid donor helping people in the refugee camps to be clothed and housed and try to find a solution so they can go home. there are 6 million people who are in danger of being refugees. we cannot take all those people in. it makes sense to use our aid budget to help them in the issue. >> on the issue of leaving

europe nicola sturgeon. >> nigel farage want to take the uk out. david cameron is takes us dangerously close to the exit door. i would like to issue a challenge, they spent a lot of time in scotland talking about the uk family of nations. will they give a commitment that if there is an inout referendum no one part of that family of nation wills be taken out of europe against its are, that the votes will be counted in each of the four nations so none of us can be dragged out. >> let me answer that question. my priority is not to have a referendum. let me explain why. my priority as prime minister is to build the future for the young people. the british people have a decision to make tonight. david cameron will spend the next two years trying to exit

the europeunion. >> can we be clear tluld not be a discussion about a referendum if it wasn't for the rise. if 2012 david cameron was opposed to britain having an eu referendum saying it wasn't in our national interest. the people out there that want a referendum, the only way it's going to happen freely and fairly is to put enough -- >> nick clegg. >> nigel farage seem to think every problem in the world can be solved by a referendum on europe. at the end of the day europe is not perfect. but it is the world's largest marketplace of 500 million shoppers who buy our goods and services. if you do what nigel farage or significant parts of the conservative party want, to yank 0 ourselves out the family of nations, unemployment would go up. and would never ever ever approach an approach which would make our country poorer and see more people out of work. i think it's deeply

irresponsible. >> natalie bennett. >> i will endorse trusting the voters and believing in the people. you have to be in your late 50s to direct a vote in europe. the green party does support a referendum on europe but we would be campaigning strongly in that referendum to stay? europe. we believe there's certain decisions that should be made at that kind of level like protecting our environmental status protecting the worker's rights. those kinds of decisions we need continent wide. but also what we need to do is have a different kind of europe a europe much lez centralized much better for local communities and local decision-making. >> leanne wood. >> i think that the rhetoric on immigration has not helped the economic situation. there are gaps in the welsh economy that need filling and this debate does not help. the one thing i would agree with nigel farage on and i never thought i would ever say that

but you are right when you say that you kntd control immigration from within the eu. >> thank you. >> as a member. >> one member of the panel. well done. >> you have to accept that people will come here. we have free movement of people and people will move out to other parts of the eu as well. and we expect our citizens to be treated well when they move to other countries and likewise we mistreat european citizens well when they come and live with us in our communities too. >> nigel farage. >> well, admission of the truth. this actually worked rather well. the free movement of the people, when we were in with countries like france, germany, the netherlands, roughly similar standards, education and health systems, it didn't pose any problem. the problem was irresponsibly stupidly, we let in ten former communist countries where the anyone mum wage is about a tenth of what it is here. and we you say to poor countries

they can move to the rich countries, they do. the labor government got it horrendously wrong on the figures. but we now face the potential of the collapse of the euro zone and we have no control over but we now face the potential of a collapse in the eurozone and we have no control. >> ed miliband. >> we did get it wrong and i've said we got it wrong and i changed our approach. but i do think there's a wider issue about the opportunity for our young people. nick and david were saying how brilliant everything is in apprenticeship. take an issue, i.t. we bring lots of people into this country who are contributing to our country from other countries. in i.t. especially with skills in i.t. but apprenticeships in i.t. are actually falling in our country. the answer is we should say if you want to bring in a skilled worker from outside the european union you must provide apprenticeships to the next generation because homegrown opportunity -- >> thank you. >> -- is an essential part -- >> thank you. >> -- of dealing with people's concerns about immigration. >> nick clegg. >> i sprong strongly agree that apresent i.ships, which is an old idea the idea you sort of earn and learn you learn the

tricks of the trade while you're actually working on the shop floor in the office or elsewhere, is a great old idea that we've given it new life. we've got 2 million new apprenticeships created over the course of this last parliament. it's never been expanded on such a scale. and i think it's something i hope all future parliaments will continue with because it's a fantastic way to aw loungsteres to get their first rung of the jobs ladder. >> thank you very much. indeed all party leaders on that issue. now, if the arguments tonight have fired your political passions you've still got time to register to vote on may the 7th. you can do so online. now our next question is from rebecca creamer. >> i'm a 25-year-old graduate with a good job. but my generation as a whole have got it pretty tough. it cost us more than our parents to go to uni, we'll work well into our 70s for smaller pensions and high rents make saving for our own home difficult if not impossible. we'll be less well off than our parents and it feels like we're

paying for other people's mistakes. if you're elected, what will you do for my generation to help us feel optimistic about our future? >> rebecca thank you very much indeed. leanne wood. >> played cymru believes we need to invest in our young people especially education because that's the best route out of poverty. you're right when you say young people today are going to fair worse than the older generation. and it's the first time for a long while that the generation of today is going to be worse off than the generation before it. played cymru wants to provide free tuition fees for our students, but because of austerity we're not in a position to do that even if we were running the welsh government. we want to keep the tuition fee subsidy that is available for welsh students but we would like students to stugdy in wales so we

can invest that public money into welsh universities. but we would like some courses to be made available for free and i've talked earlier on about doctors in the health service in wales, and we believe we can attract more doctors by providing free tuition for that skilled group of workers. >> ed miliband. >> rebecca you speak for so many young people all across our country who i meet asking why they're paying the price of hard times. and that's what we've got to turn around. and that's what i'm going to do if i'm your prime minister. the first thing we've got to do is guarantee all young people access to a good education. so you get a high-quality apprenticeship if you get the grades, that's a guarantee the next labour government will make, and we'll also cut the tuition fee from 9,000 to 6,000 pounds because i don't want our young people drowning in debt when they leave university. next we've got to create good jobs for young people. that's why we'll ban zero hours

contracts and say if you do regular hours you get a regular contract. and lastly we'll build homes again in our country. 200,000 homes a year by 2020. and get a fair deal for young people in the private rented sector where many young people are being ripped off. i believe in what i call the promise of britain, that the next generation does better than the last. i believe we can restore it. >> ed miliband thank you. david cameron. >> well, thank you, rebecca for your question. i think it's absolutely crucial. i think the most important thing is to make sure there are good jobs for people to do. and obviously in the last parliament we created 2 million new jobs and in the next pafrmt we want to create 2 million more good jobs for people. i think apprenticeships and universities are vital. i want our young people to have the choice of either. so we're going to have 3 million apprenticeships in the next the parliament. but also, we've uncapped university places. so whoever wants a place can go to university. in terms of building homes i want us to build homes that people can afford to buy. and that's what our starter homes are all about.

put at 80% of the market price, not available to foreign buyers or investment funds but there for british people to buy and to own and with our help 80,000 people onto the housing ladder. i know it seems odd to answer a question from a young person about pensions but actually it is important to look forward to security and dignity in old age. and we've safeguarded the pension because people in our country should be able to look forward to dignity and security at the end of a hard working life. >> david cameron thank you. natalie bennett. >> well rebecca we believe that education is a public good and therefore it should be paid for from general progressive taxation, far more progressive than we have now. just look at the facts on this. students on average now are leaving university with 44,000 pounds' worth of debt. 73% of them on current figures will never pay that off. they're going through 30 years of their life for many people from roughly their mid 20s to

their mid 50s. anytime you earn any sort of money at all you're going to be paying a significant chunk of your income to a debt that you'll never repay. and it's not like the system is actually working. on current figures again 45 p on the pound is never going to be repaid. so we in the green party not only want zero university tuition fees we also want to pay off student loan company debts so people don't have that weight of debt. but of course we also need changes in housing and jobs you can build a life on which is why we're calling for a minimum wage of 10 pounds an hour by 2020. >> natalie bennett thank you. nick clegg. >> let me take the issue of tuition fees head on. i of course famously, infamous couldn't practice my party's policies on tuition fees for reasons they were jacked up by labour and there was no money left. but we did the next best thing, got the fairest deal possible and thankfully now there are more young people going to university than ever before on full-time courses and there were more young people from

disadvantaged backgrounds. but if i couldn't do that i hope some acknowledgment is at least the other things i'm very proud i have managed to do to give opportunities to create a stronger economy and a fairer society. we've talked about more apprenticeships than ever before. the huge tax cuts, which mean you pay nothing no tax on the first 10,600 pounds you earn as of next week. money going to schools for the pupil premium for disadvantaged kids. healthy meals at lunchtime for little children at primary school. these are the things that make a fairer future for future generations and i'm very, very proud of them. >> nick clegg, thank you. nicola sturgeon. >> in scotland we're investing in record numbers of apprenticeships. more affordable homes and helping the poorest young people in our country stay on at school and college. but we've also kept access to university free of tuition fees. i grew up in a working-class family. i wouldn't be standing here as first minister of scotland without the free education i had

access to. as a politician i have no right to take that same entitlement away from the next generation of young people. i will always fight, do whatever it takes to keep access to university free. i think it's shameful for any politician who has benefited from that free education to take it away from others. so snm mps in the house of commons and the scottish parliament, anywhere else will always support the principle that your access to education as a young person should be based entirely on your ability to land and never, ever on your ability to pay. >> nicola sturgeon thank you. nigel farage. >> i think there's a section of young people in this country who are having a fantastic time. life is great. they're full of optimism. they're the rich. and they're the ones who go to the 7% of schools where their parents are wealthy enough to pay for their education. and they are now dominating politics, the media the arts

sport in a way i haven't seen before. and their families get richer and richer and the gap, the social inequality in britain grows with every single year. by abolishing grammar schools by abolishing selective education what we did actually was to pull up the ladder on tens of thousands of young men and women every year who would have done better had they gone to a grammar school. with university education we encourage lots of peoplei to university who actually weren't academic and have come out with debt and would have done better with trade and skills. and to give optimism on housing what i said earlier we have to build a new house every seven minutes to cope with migration. let's cut the numbers and let's have a brownfield building revolution. >> nigel farage, thank you. to open the debate i'll turn to david cameron. >> well, let me make a point about schools because actually under this government we've got a million more children in good or outstanding schools. and one of the reasons for that is we've opened up the state education system and encouraged great education providers, teachers and charities to come and set up schools. i was at one today the

warrington kings academy. three times more pupils want to go than they can take. and i think these free schools are a great institution. but ed miliband's party says no more. >> that is what we need. >> i want to come back to that point. >> why is the conservative party planning to cut the money for schools? you're planning to cut over 3 billion pounds out of the schools' budget. that is no way to guarantee fairness. >> over the last -- >> thank you, nick clegg. >> i have to say with nick clegg we sat in the cabinet room together, we took difficult decisions together. nick, i defend all of the decisions we took and i think you'll sort of pick and mix -- >> no. i remember vividly when your party wanted to cut spending for schools at the beginning of the