she gained the reputation for being cleanly by her critics. louisa catherine adams is the only first lady to date on outside of the united states. she played an important role in her husband's 1824 presidential campaign, yet had difficulty winning the approval of her mother-in-law. abigail adams, elizabeth monroe and louisa catherine adams sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's original series "first ladies." examining the public and private lives of the women who filled first lady and their influence on the presidency. from martha washington to michelle obama. sundays on c-span3. each week, america history cap -- the american history tv takes you to museums and historic places. the travel to the national constitution center in philadelphia to learn about 42 bronze statues in signer's hall and to learn about the constitutional convention of 1787.

prof rosen: i'm thrilled to welcome you to signer's hall. let me tell you about the national constitution center. and tell you about this room. the national constitution center is a very special place. it is the only institution in america that has a charter from congress to disseminate information about the u.s. constitution on a non-partisan basis. and that means that in these polarized times we are the only place in america that brings together all sides in the constitutional debates that transfixed the country to debate and discuss not political issues but constitutional issues so that you the people can make up your own minds. we do that in three ways. a museum of we the people on independence mall in philadelphia with the most beautiful constitutional views and america looking out on independence hall where the constitution was drafted.

we are also america's town hall, a place where you can see at the center and also thanks to c-span , often on tv, debates and symposia and panels debating the constitution. and we have got this phenomenal podcast series, which we are getting great downloads where every week we call the top liberal and conservative scholars to debate the constitution so that you can engage with them. finally, we are a center for civic education. you can find online our interactive tool that allows you to click on any provision of the bill of rights, see its antecedents and trace the spread of that across the globe. this place is constitutional heaven. i am a law professor at george washington university and i feel every day so lucky to be able to be engaged in this great project of constitutional education. so signer's hall is the heart and soul of the national constitution center. this is this beautiful room, so

simple, and so powerful that contains life-sized statues of the men who signed the constitution. there are 42 statues in this room. 39 people actually signed the constitution. and they are all here, and they are life-size. it was an extremely process of -- an extraordinary process of creation to make these statues. it is based on the 1940's painting about the constitutional convention. about 10 years ago when the constitution center opens, a studio in new york commissioned 50 actors to stand in the positions that you see here in costume to give you a sense of what it was like to be in independence hall of the time the constitution was drafted. this room has the same proportions as independence hall. so it is more or less the size

of the room that the framers stood in. and there is something so viscerally powerful about just being able to see how big the framers were. to go up and see the kids who love to touch them and sit on ben franklin's lap, and touch their hands. you can see the shiny parts where they get rubbed and touched. these statues have just been re- polished. because we opened this new gallery with one of the 12 original copies of the bill of rights. in a few weeks they are getting nice and shiny again. the main thing everyone wants to know is how tall was james madison and how tall was george washington? so, they are right behind me here. i think i can squeeze in between abraham baldwin from georgia. he was the last guy to sign. he is gesturing toward the constitution itself. now i'm standing between george washington and james madison. and you can see george washington is the tallest man in

the room at 6'2", he is towering over everyone else. his physical presence. he is commanding in every respect. and james madison over whom i am absolutely towering, i think he was 5'4", so thin boned and wan. he had epilepsy. he had challenges in health. there is a great new fire a fee -- a great new biography that came to the constitution center who talked about how his physical frailty shaped his ideas and created this great man, the father of the constitution if there was a single father who was so devoted to moderation and pragmatism and compromise. and really the great genius of the constitution was the balancing and mixing of interests. the challenge for the men in this room was how the balance,

interest that seemed at times irreconcilable. the difference was over the power of large states versus small states. who should prevail? the small states, obviously, wanted to make sure that their interests were represented, and they favored equal representation in congress. they basically wanted one or two representatives for every state. the state did not like that at all. they wanted to be represented by population so that they would have more power. so, the question of how to reconcile those interests led to a clash between what was known as the virginia plan and the new jersey plan. and i want to talk to you about that. the virginia plan proposed by the virginia delegation, which included madison and washington, was favored by the large states. it would have had i camera

-- i camera legislature -- by camera -- two houses, but the states were to be represented by population. so new york and virginia would have far more weight than new jersey and delaware because they had greater population. that was not going to fly at all with representatives from the smaller states. and they rallied around something called the new jersey plan. and so, let's go to the new jersey delegation and see what they thought. i avoid abraham baldwin and pass respect live by alexander -- respectively by alexander hamilton who we will come back to in a moment and move right up here to worry livingston of new -- william livingston of new jersey and in particular william , paterson who was the guy who came up with the new jersey plan. and william paterson is in energetic discussion with jacob broom. of all the statues, broom is the only one for whom an image to not exist. -- did not exist. i think the artist had to imagine what his face looked

like. everyone is represented according to contemporary pictures. william paterson proposes the new jersey plan which says that every states is going to get equal representation in a bicameral legislature. that would've been great for states like new jersey whose votes counts as much as big states like virginia and new york, but as you can imagine virginia and the larger states were not happy with that. so what to do? it looks like an irreconcilable clash. fortunately as was the case of , many times at the convention someone proposed a compromise. and that someone was roger sherman of connecticut. let's go look at him and see what he came up with. the connecticut delegation is here. and i have to apologize, ladies and gentlemen, because whenever i think of roger sherman i cannot help but think as i do so many times when i see the framers, of that great musical "1776." roger sherman was one of the six people at the convention that pass the declaration of

independence. in "1776" mr. sherman and mr. adams are debating in song about who should write the declaration of independence. and they give it to thomas jefferson. he says -- "i do not know a participle from a predicate. i am a simple cobbler from connecticut." that's one of the great minds of all time. robert sherman was not seen as dancing and he was coming up with constitutional compromises. and the connecticut compromise my goodness. look, he looks so stern. but impressive. how could you resist a gaze like that? roger sherman's compromise was to blend the virginia and new jersey plans and propose a system we have today where we have a bicameral legislation of -- legislature of two houses. every state has two votes in the senate regardless of how big it is. the interest of the large states is represented in the house of representatives which has or

apportioned by population. so that beautiful compromise which allow the constitution to be passed is just one example of the incredible pragmatism of the delegates. i mentioned the spirit of moderation and compromise being so central to madison's achievement. these men were not ideologues. they had strong views, which they were not willing to compromise in some cases and ultimately, the question of whether the constitution should contain the bill of rights or not was one that led three men to refuse to sign the document. we will see those three dissenters in a moment. but generally, the spirit of compromise infused the documents. or rather the convention. they operated in secret. that was pretty important, that they were able to test out ideas without having to expose to public scrutiny and they took their secrecy very carefully, although madison later published

-- madison took notes which were later published and ultimately they came up with the document they did now. this is a room about personalities but also a room about ideas because these great men who came up with a document that some have described as the most perfect in history. it is hard to think of, given the constraints of human frailty, a document that would have better endured for the ages, the longest enduring written constitution in history. it's exciting to learn their stories and also to talk about their ideas. so let's do that. right here is a framer who is next to madison perhaps the most important philosopher of the constitution in this hall. i will add one more to that list and that is james wilson. madison, hamilton, and wilson was the most important, and this is alexander hamilton. we like to say of hamilton what , he lacked in stature he made up and fiscal responsibility. he was a great defender of an

energetic central government that would be strong enough to regulate the economy. some accused him of being monarchical in his tendency, and he would've favored a stronger executive than the one that ultimately resulted. hamilton, like madison, was one of the authors of the federalist papers which were the documents that were issued anonymously under the pseudonym publius to give the argument for and against ratification of the constitution after it was proposed. and hamilton had many great contributions in the federalist papers, not least of which was his theory of why it is ok for courts to strike down unconstitutional laws. so federalist 78, which hamilton wrote, says -- the contains the whole philosophy of american government in a few paragraphs. it says the will of we the people of the united states is represented by the constitution because of the special ratification procedure that gave it the will of, the force of law.

hamilton says, a match of the -- imagine a conflict between the will of the people represented by the constitution and the will of the just lasers represented by -- the will of -- by ordinary const -- statues and it's in paper to favor the will of the sovereign versus the agent. it is the obligation of judges to favor the will of the sovereign to that of the agent. the, basically, the master has to be preferred to the servant if legislatures are servants of the masters, we, the people. that is why, according to hamilton, it is not on democratic courts to strike down unconstitutional laws when they set aside a law passed by the legislature that clashes with the constitution they are favoring the will of the people over the will of the legislatures. a brilliant theory like so much of what hamilton did. now i want to introduce you to the pennsylvania delegation. hugely important and also contains the most underappreciated framer. in some ways, the greatest

constitutional philosopher of the convention. and that is james wilson of pennsylvania. see james wilson, age 45, born in scotland, lawyer and politician. would go on to serve on the supreme court. james wilson's central contribution to the constitutional convention was his theory of popular summative. -- popular sovereignty. remember the preamble to the constitution. "we the people of the united states in order to form a more perfect union." it did not originally read that way. the original draft said "we the people of new york, virginia new jersey." it listed the states individual ly because there were those at the convention who follow the model of the articles of confederation and thought that we the people of each state worse off or had sovereign -- or sovereign and had sovereign authority. that has huge consequences because if the people of each

state are sovereign, it would have taken unanimous approval to ratify the constitution, which after all, violated the rules of approval of the articles of confederation which did require unanimity. and nothing could get done. also, if we the people of each state were sovereign, then any state could choose to leave the union on its own if it chose. but wilson disputed that we the people of each state were sovereign. he insisted that we the people of the united states as a whole were sovereign. this he said was the difference between britain where parliament had sovereign power and could do whatever it likes, and the united states where the people not parliament were sovereign. and the relevant denominator for the people was that of the entire union not of each state. this great contribution to american popular sovereignty was at the heart of the civil war. abraham lincoln channeling -- -- james wilson agreed because we the people of the united states were sovereign when those

people ratified the constitution, they created an indissoluble union that would require the support of the entire union to allow any state to secede. people like calhoun and other states rights advocates channeling the anti-federalist said any state could decide to leave on its own. it took the civil war, the bloodiest in american history, to establish that wilson and lincoln were correct and that the advocates of state sovereignty were not, and that indeed, we the people of the united states were sovereign. madison himself was probably conflicted on this corporate federalist 39 talks about dual sovereignty where the states in their sovereign capacity occasionally rule and sometimes we the people rule. others like wilson said that the idea of two sovereignties was a state within the state. -- was then empyrean or an imperial, state within a state. you could not have to sovereign

-- two sovereign powers. the civil war did indicate wilson's vision. today, our national unity represented by national popular sovereignty is thanks to james , wilson. that, of course, james wilson is not -- i said he was the most underappreciated framer. he is not the most famous. the most famous, and i suppose the most beloved based on the amount of shininess on his hands in just a few weeks, is benjamin franklin of pennsylvania. at age 81, he is the oldest of the framers, printer, inventor scientists, and statesman. he is not well at the time of the convention. but he is so respected, and his wisdom so it knowledge that when -- so acknowledged that when he did speak, he was closely attended to. the main thing to say about franklin is kids love to sit on his lap. he's very cuddly. he's the pillsbury framer in that respect. but he was sharp as attack. -- as a tack.

and there was an amazing moment at the end of the convention where he was looking at the chair that george washington sat at which had a sun inscribed in it. we do not have a replication of the chair here. you can see it in independence hall. franklin said throughout the convention i was wondering whether it was a rising or setting sun. he said, now i am confident the sun is rising. next to benjamin franklin is gouverneur morris of pennsylvania. i thought when i first learned about him that he was a governor. but he was not he just had a -- but he was not, he just had a very distinctive name, which was gouverneur morris. he also had a distinctive peg leg. how did he get a peg leg? the story was that he was in a carriage accident, and some say that he was escaping from an assignation with a lady. others say he just had a carriage accident.

you can decide for yourself. but he is here with his elegant walking stick perring over -- peering over benjamin franklin along with the rest of , the pennsylvania delegation. and it's striking how central these delegates were in their home state. so, the great issue in addition to the presence or absence of the bill of rights that divided the constitutional convention was the question of slavery. this is the great moral stain in american history, the original declaration of independence had promised that all men are created equal. but the constitutional convention was not able to vindicate that promise because of a disagreement about the status of slavery, and also about the political consequences that would result from allowing slavery to continue. there were some framers who opposed slavery on moral grounds, but the more practical question that the framers faced

was, if the southern states were allowed to count their enslaved men and women as part of the baseline for apportionment in representation, then they would dominate the legislature. so, this is a conflict between big states and small states and the slave states and the free states. and they were at an impasse. how should slaves be counted for purposes of representation? what saved the convention, although allowed slavery to continue until it was finally eradicated after the 13th amendment passed after the civil war, something known as the 3/5 compromise. the 3/5 compromise was proposed by james wilson of pennsylvania who we talked about as the great architect of popular sovereignty. and it was seconded by charles pinckney of south carolina. i am standing here with the south carolina delegation, including pinckney and also john

rutledge, and finally charles cotesworth. pinckney believed it was a way of reconciling the maintenance of slavery with the political concerns of the northern states. here is what the 3/5 clause famously or infamously said, reading for my riveting national constitution center pocket constitution. i think you can get these on amazon now. if you go on to our website, we should get them up and running which has this completely thrilling introductory essay by me and david rubenstein about the relationship of the constitution and the bill of rights and declaration which , discusses the status of slavery. here is the 3/5 clause. article i sets out the powers of the congress and section ii talks about how congress be apportioned and the -- it says

-- the 3/5 clause says -- "representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons including those bound to service for a term of years and excluding indians not taxed 3/5 of all other persons." so that is one of the great compromises, one can say one of the great moral indignities in the convention to decide to count enslaved persons as 3/5 of a person for the purposes of apportionment. that compromise came along with the decision to allow the slave trade to continue until 1808 which is also inscribed in the constitution. and those two decisions meant that the great question of how

to eradicatereat slavery would be eradicate slavery would be -- would be deferred until the civil war. it is not the proudest moment, and the most shameful, but reality is the constitution would not have been passed on -- or proposed without this compromise and is an example of how these delegates were able to

i learned to pronounce it gary -- gerrymandering is the practice of drawing voting district so they stick around and such funny shapes that they look like a salamander. gerry was the one who -- it is designed to ensure that your party wins to protect incumbents or if the state legislature is drawing up the seat to ensure their party retains power. so gerry created a district that looks like salamander. people ridiculed as a form of gerrymandering and that is what we have today. edmund randolph of virginia, along with george mason, was not happy about the rights that were proposed. randolph and mason originally supported the strong central government and were supportive of the constitution, but during the course of the debates over the constitution, they both became concerned that it did not include a bill of rights and that a to radical central government may come to menace the inalienable natural rights retained by the people. mason was the author of the virginia declaration of rights which was so inspiring to thomas jefferson that he had a copy of it beside him when he wrote the declaration of independence. and the virginia declaration which looks quite a lot like our bill of rights, because james madison would ultimately come to rely on it, set out the basic natural and unalienable rights that mason believed governments

were meant to protect and not menace. you can check it out online. go to our rights interactive at nationalconstitutioncenter.org. you can compare it with the ultimate bill of rights. you will see how madison cut and pasted the virginia bill of rights and coming up with a bill of rights. it is amazing story of principle. mason was not being a -- he did think the central government had to be more energetic than it was in the articles of confederation, but he wanted to ensure it was limited. so why didn't james madison go along with mason, gerry, and randolph's call for a bill or rights? madison opposed it for two reasons. he thought it would be either unnecessary or dangerous. unnecessary because the constitution is already a bill of rights by limiting and spelling out the powers of congress and denying the congress any powers that were not specifically enumerated. and dangerous because madison thought that people might assume

that if a right was not written down, it was not protected. he and the other framers thought that since our rights come from god and not government it would be a bad idea to assume that you can have a determinate list. but based on the opposition of these three dissenters, the anti-federalist geared up. hamilton and madison wrote "the federalist papers" under the pseudonym publius. the anti-federalist wrote counter pamphlets with vivid anonymous pseudonyms themselves, like federal farmer and so forth. basically, they said to not ratify the constitution unless it contains a bill of rights. and based on this opposition many of the state ratifying conventions came to agree with them and demanded subsequent amendments in the course of ratifying the constitution. as a result of this groundswell of support, james madison changed his mind in 1789, went

to congress, and propose a bill of rights that originally contained 19 amendments. congress sent 12 to states for ratification. you can see here in the next room an original copy of the bill of rights, along with rare copies of the constitution and declaration of independence. you will see how the original document does not contain just 10 amendments but 12. the first two have to do not with free speech, which is our first amendment, but with the size of congress. the first one says there should be one representative in congress for every 40,000 people, which would have created a congress of 4000 people today. and the second -- of the original second amendment says congress cannot raise its salary without an intervening election. that became part of our constitution as the 27th amendment in the 1990's. so what a remarkable story that, in this room, despite the fierce divisions of principle among the delegates, that these brave dissenters ultimately were vindicated. and it's a reminder of the

importance of dissent and political dissent was so crucial to the framing of the constitution, and protections for dissent, now expressed in the first amendment, are really at the heart of what makes america distinctive. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> here are a few of the book festivals we will cover on c-span's booktv. we are live at the guinness book book festival in maryland with tom davis and martin frost as well as david axelrod. we close out may at look expo america in new york city, where the publishing industry showcases their upcoming books. we are live at the chicago

tribune's printers row lit fest, including our three-hour live in depth program with lawrence wright and your phone calls. that is the spring on c-span two's booktv. american history tv is featuring c-span's original series "first ladies, -- c-span producers in cooperation with the white house historical association. it includes video tours of historic sites and questions from the audience. we tell the stories of america's 45 first ladies. first, dolley madison. this is about an hour and a half. ♪ >> dolley was both socially adept and politically savvy. >>