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tv   American History TV  CSPAN  May 17, 2015 8:00pm-9:33pm EDT

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by public affairs, looking inside the personal life of every first lady in american history, based on original interviews from c-span's first lady series. learn about their lives ambitions, and unique partnerships with residential spouses. first ladies: presidential historians on the lives of 45 iconic women, filled with lively stories of fascinating women who survived the scrutiny of the white house, sometimes at a great personal cost, often changing history. c-span' us first ladies is an illuminating entertaining, and inspiring read, now available as a hardcover or e-book through your 0 >> american history tv featuring c-span's "first ladies" at 8:00 p.m. eastern on sunday nights throughout the rest of the year. c-span produced the series in cooperation with the white house historical association. through conversations with
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experts, video tors, and questions from the audience, we tell the stories of america's 45 first lady. now, we look at two administrations led by widowed president. we begin with rachel jackson and emily donaldson. this is about 90 minutes. ♪ >> rachel was not a fan of anything that took andrew jackson away from the hermitage. her preference apparently didn't strongly influence him. >> she ran the plantation or the farm and kept everything in order. >> she might not have been like abigail adams, but she could write a nice letter. she was not as frumpy as she was reputed to be. >> as he rose in politics, that
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was an ugly sore. >> the campaign was so bitterly fought. they went all out, completely calling her a whore. rachel was good garbage for them. >> she dreaded going to washington and made the statement, i'd rather be a doorkeeper in the house of god. before he left to go to washington, she died. >> emily donaldson was 21 years old. she became the white house hostess. >> for all the negatives washington had to say about andrew jackson, they loved her. >> she received education in being a lady. how to sew, how to embroider. it was that kind of education that enabled her when rachel dies to slide into the role of
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white house hostess. ask the women all like her. it meant more than people thought. she was beautiful, she was polished. >> it is emily that jackson has a falling out with. jackson never lost his affection for her. he just couldn't deal with this going against his will. >> for 12 years, no presidents wife served as first lady. in this program, we will learn about two administrations led by widowed presidents. up first on c-span's "first ladies," andrew jackson's presidency, a story of personal politics, tragedy, gossip and innuendo. thanks for being with us in our continuing series on the lives of america's first ladies, produced with the cooperation of
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the white house historical association. here to tell us more about the time and the women who served in the white house are two guests. first, michael henderson. in his past, he served as superintendent of the martin van buren historical segment. and pat brady is back at our table. she is a first lady's biographer and historian. her biography of rachel jackson -- michael henderson, help people understand the amount of change that andrew jackson brought to washington. michael: good heavens. jackson is the first westerner. we've had virginia presidents from the old south before that. jackson is completely different. the change is enormous.
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even though he is a planter, he is not of the old planter class of the south. nor was he a new englander. this is a westerner. he brings different values and the french ambitions to the white house. susan: even though he was a widow the president, the ghost of his former wife hung over the white house during his years there. why is that? pat: she was the woman of his life. he loved her. when she died just a few months before he was inaugurated, he was bereft. he spent all of his time thinking about her and her memory and having her portraits in his bedroom so he could think of her. it really changed the way the first administration wins.
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susan: we need to go into the campaign of 1822 understand the presidency. 1828 was the year of what? how did it change? michael: it was the first time we did not have a majority of electors. the whole election was given over to the house of representatives. we had these competing factions in the house of representatives. you had crawford from georgia. you had henry clay and calhoun and jackson. jackson won the popular vote but he did not win the electoral college. when the politicking was going on in the house of representatives, there was an opportunity to make deals. one of the deals that was made was that henry clay would become the vice president and adams would win the election. once we come out of that
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election, the buildup to the next election is that that was a corrupt bargain. susan: you described 1824 setting the stage for 1828. the 1828 campaign was old and midis brought together again. how did it play out? pat: in 1824, jackson was not quite sure he was ready to be president. when he won the vote and it was stolen from him, he knew he was meant to be president. he thought the election had stolen the people's presidency. when he came out in 1828, he came out fighting. susan: what was interesting about the campaign was that it was a precursor to modern campaigning. he and his surrogates for out on the stump.
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as many as 800,000 more americans voted in that election as they had in the previous ones the -- the previous one. how had he thought of that? michael: it was the growing development of a national party that martin van buren had been working on with people in the south. this was a time of great technological change. we had railroads and newspapers and new communication methods coming to bear as well as a much larger electorate. we had general white male suffrage in all of the states. there were more people voting, more interest in voting, and more opportunity to hear about it. pat: the western states had come in. susan: rachel jackson became an issue. this is the first time in our early country's history that people targeted the wife of a
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presidential candidate? pat: to the extent that it happened. abigail adams had taken some hard hits from the press. being referred to as meza and -- as madame presidents. that sort of thing had happened. this was the first time someone actually went out trying to find dirt found what they thought was dirt and publicized it widely. susan: who was the first one looking for dirt? pat: a man who hated jackson and wanted to see jackson go down. when he found out she had been divorced, he really despised her. he was rigorously fundamentalist. it was a moral issue for him. he really thought she would disgrace the white house.
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susan: how did john quincy adams play into this campaign? michael: adams, he didn't really -- what am i trying to say? pat: he didn't do it, but he didn't stop it. hammon was his party hack. he did not come down on him. he just sat back and said, oh my goodness. susan: we saw in the open, political cartoons. was this a new phenomenon? pat: yes. to call a lady that had been married for 36 years a whore adulterer, that was unprecedented. susan: what was the criticism against her? what in fact was she accused of doing?
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pat: was accused of being married before. and she was. she was married to a man who treated her and her family very badly. her whole family hated him. out west, they did not believe you had to stick by your man if he was horrible. they believe in dissolving an unhappy marriage, so they did. susan: also, criticism of her and her western frontier lack of class. pat: she smoked a pipe. she had an accent. she had a tennessee accent. she did not have an east coast accent. susan: were opponents concerned about what the image for the new country would be if he made it to the white house? michael: there is a strong class issue running through all of this. it is difficult to talk about in a country that does not have class. would this person be virtuous enough to represent the united
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states? is this person genteel enough to represent the united states? susan: the great tragedy is that after this really vociferous campaign, he went to the white house. she was preparing to go with him, and what happens? pat: she died. she thought the situation was too volatile. she thought people would be rude to her and they might snub her. she thought about not going. then they decided that that would be admitting they were wrong. she decided to go. on december 22, she died of a heart attack. susan: and she was buried in the dress that she planned to wear. pat: a white satin gown that she planned to wear to the inaugural ball.
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susan: this is our first video of the night. we will be showing you video throughout the night. we are going to take you to the hermitage, their home in tennessee and learn more about what andrew jackson carried throughout the rest of his life after rachel. >> we do not know what kind of health rachel was in overall. throughout the fall of 1828, her health was not good. the campaign for president that jackson was going through had a huge effect on her health. this is a letter jackson wrote on this day that rachel actually died, december 22, 1828. he is writing to his friend. he describes the onset of rachel's illness, her final illness. he says that she was suddenly, violently attacked with pains in her left shoulder and breast.
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a contraction of the breast, that suffocation was apprehended. it was clear she was in a serious condition. he talked about getting ready to go to washington like he is assuming she will get better and off they will go. unfortunately, she passed away later in the day. according to the stories of her death, jackson called for her to be bled when she died. jackson was a big believer in heroic medicine, medicine that if it did not kill you, it would cure you. even though she was not alive anymore, he asks the doctor to bleed her. supposedly, there is a small stain on the cap, the little blood that came out when the doctor tried to bleed her. we have a lancet that the doctor would have used to cut her open.
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then some things about his mourning. a black calling card to suggest he was in deep mourning. a poem that was published and later printed on silk, talking about the death of mrs. jackson. and a book that was given to him by a friend of his that has a long inscription. it is a book called "the mortar comforted," to help him read things that would help him along. jackson was completely devastated. for her to die just as he was actually preparing the plan is to get on the steamboat to go to washington was almost more than he could deal with. this was painted while he was in washington after rachel's death. had it with him all the time, on his chain or in his pocket or on his bedside table so that he could see it in the morning when
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he awakens. she was with him pretty much all the time even though she had passed away. this was a book that was important to jackson. this was in rachel's psalm book. she made this cross stitch cover to keep the book nice. after her death, jackson kept things like this close at hand so that he could refer to them another way of keeping her close. jackson had a habit after she died of purchasing more using our keeping things that reminded him of her. this was the central hall of the hermitage manchin. although the house burned after rachel's death, jackson insisted they repurchase the same wallpaper they had chosen.
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she liked it and it reminded him of her and he wanted it here. this is jackson's bedroom. after rachel's death, she was not very far away from him. he kept many mementos of her around. he had a portrait that was a favorite of his copy so that he could have been hanging over the fireplace so that it would be the first thing he saw in the morning and the last thing he saw at night according to the tradition and stories passed down by the family. he would go out to her tomb every sunday and spend some time out there either thinking about her or thinking about the problems of the day. he wanted the feeling of her close by. susan: this program is interactive. we welcome your participation. there are lots of ways you can do that. you can call us.
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you can send us a tweet. if you do, use the hashtag #firstladies. or you can go to c-span's facebook page and have a conversation about this a gram. here is a tweet from sheldon cooper, who writes, did rachel have plans about what the jackson life should or should be like in washington, d.c.? >> she did. she did not like expensive entertainment. she liked to go hear the leading preachers of the day and have family and friends around her in the white house. i think it would have been a domesticated white house. susan: the same person ask another question. given her public scrutiny, did
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any famous dignitaries attend her funeral? do either of you know the answer to that? pat: she was buried two days after she died. given the way news traveled and people travel, no one could have made it. all of the local dignitaries all of the church bells tolled. everything close down. there was a huge attendance at her funeral. susan: time to step back and telling a little bit of the great love story between rachel and andrew jackson. who was rachel donelson jackson? pat: she was the daughter of one of the first families of tennessee. she and her family came to see via a thousand-mile river trip. many of the people on the trip died. they were some the earliest white settlers. her family was quite positive in the area. she was part of the gentry of
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tennessee. susan: we have a question from someone wanting to know how unusual it was for someone, at the age of 24, to be on their second husband. was that considered unusual at the time? michael: not particularly. people died all the time particularly on the frontier. most people remarry because you needed to have the support in order to live. susan: the difference here was that they divorced. pat: widows and widowers always remarry. it was peculiar for someone not to remarry. susan: her first husband was 17 years her senior? at: not that much. he was about 10 years her senior. susan: why did they make the
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match? pat: her family left the area of nashville because the war between the whites and the indians was so ferocious and so strong, the whites wanted to stay there. the indians did not want them there. the battle for territory. the donelsons went to kentucky where things were safer. susan: how long did the marriage lasts? pat: not long. 3 or four years. susan: why didn't it last? pat: he was too mean. michael: he was a nasty, abusive person. susan: did it take courage for her to leave him? pat: it took courage for her family. she adored her family and they adored her. they were part of the whole decision to elope.
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susan: who was andrew jackson when she met him? pat: nobody. michael: he had been in local militias. that was about it. susan:? how did they meet? pat: he was one of the borders at her mother's house. he lived in one of the cottages with another bachelor lawyer. he would say, why is one of the gentry renting out cottages? in terms of this being an ongoing war, to have extra guns on hand is always a good thing. susan: explain a little bit more about tennessee in that time and what the country looked like. michael: this was the far west. it was recently settled. most of the settlers theater came by river the long way or
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they came over the mountains. this was still rough country. it was not even as settled as kentucky. susan: next is a question. this is from mitchell in nashville, tennessee. caller: i noticed earlier in the show, where you put up that rachel's birthday was in june and you included a month and day. my understanding was that no one knew what her exact birthdate was. is this correct? pat: that is true. it is believed it was in june. susan: next, a question from martha in california. caller: if i am not mistaken only white property owners voted during that time. is that correct? michael: that is correct.
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in the early days, it was only white property owners of certain standing. the franchise expanded to generally being white males. susan: rachel meets the tall andrew jackson. they are attracted to each other. how did their marriage take place? pat: it is more than just attracted. all his life, jackson truly liked women. he loved her mother and saw her as a mother figure. he could not bear to see women mistreated or badly treated in any way. his gallantry was involved with what he saw was the abuse of this woman. when they fell in love, they decided to elope. susan: how long did they stay there? pat: they stayed several months,
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close to a year. when they came back, they said we are married now. her whole family, including her mother said, this is our son-in-law, andrew jackson. who is going to tell them, no? who is going to say, what about that other husband? people just accepted it because the family, neighbors, and friends accepted it. susan: when did the details come about that their divorce was not finalized? michael: the divorce was filed in virginia. there were stipulations in the settlement that it had to be posted a certain amount of time and in different places. he did not go through with posting all of it. he was playing games with the whole divorce anyway. susan: so who is at fault? michael: that is for a jury to decide.
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pat: he had to take it to court in kentucky before a jury. at that time, they had been living together as a married couple for two years. when she was accused of adultery, she was living with andrew jackson. if she had gone bad -- gone back, she would have still been married to this person she hated. they just ignored it and quietly remarried. susan: when did the hermitage become their home? pat: my mind is going blank. early in the 18th century. they started in that area. they started in a bigger place. he got into some financial trouble and they moved to the hermitage. susan: our next video is a glance at rachel and andrew jackson's life at the hermitage. >> they came to this property in 18 o for -- 1804.
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he was retiring for a while. when they first moved here, he spent a lot of time at home. the primary people who would have visited prior to the war of 1812 would have largely been friends and relations from the area. rachel had a huge family. they have lots of kids. there was a lot of them and they were in and out all the time. rachel was close to her family. jackson was an orphan and grew close to rachel's family. emily donelson, the house she grew up in, is less than two miles away from here. after the war of 1812, he has become this national hero and there were people here all the time. rachel was acknowledged to be a pretty nice hostess, cordial and welcoming. during jackson's fame after the battle of new orleans from 1815 to the rest of her life, they have lots and lots of company.
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they had many, many parties or evening dinners here at the hermitage. they were entertaining people who were used to the fine things in the city. they acquired a good deal of silver as they went along, such as these punch cups. they would have been used for an evening party where some highly liquored up punch was served. this dual image of her as a country lady, she wasn't that exactly. it was more about her comfort in big cities than it was about her actual appearance or clothing. she was not a fan of anything that took into jackson away from the hermitage. during the war of 1812, there
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were letters from her that say things like, do not let fame and fortune blind you to the fact that you have a wife, i am home, and i need you. he knew pretty well that she would have preferred him to stay home and be plantation owner andrew jackson. this is the earliest letter we have said jackson wrote to rachel. it was written in 1796 when he was in east tennessee on business. it is addressed to her, my dearest heart. it is with greatest pleasure that i sit down to write to you. what pleasing hopes i view the future when i am restored to your arms or i can spend my days in domestic sweetness with you the deer companion of my life, never to be separated from you again during this fluctuating life.
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the garden was always considered one of her really special places. lots of comments from visitors about her gathering flowers. there is one story. when a young lady was here on her honeymoon and she and her husband were invited to stay. she mentions that the garden was special to rachel. when they were preparing to leave, to move onto the next stage of their honeymoon, she walked in the garden with rachel and rachel gathered flowers and this is where they left. susan: and we are back talking about the jacksonian era with our two guests at the table. we'll take a question from twitter next. dave murdoch asks, did rachel jackson provide political guidance to andrew jackson. do we know that? michael: i don't know that we know that. he was shrewd politically but i think he probably -- he probably took care of the political
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sphere himself. pat: i would think practically no for sure. we have no records of such -- we have a lot of their letters and they're always personal or financial but they're really not politics. susan: we were talking before the program began about jackson's large personality and how sure he was of his opinions. would you talk about that? michael: he was absolutely sure of his beliefs wholeheartedly and when he saw people who disagreed with him, he often took that as a sign of enmity and that was really difficult. pat: personal. michael: personal enmity, yes. susan: so that would be further thinking he might not have sought guidance from any other person? pat: what he really couldn't stand was someone who was a friend or worse yet, a relative,
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who disagreed with him because that was really personally dishonest as far as he was concerned. susan: we'll learn more about how that unfolds in his presidency as the conversation continues. next is loy in durham, north carolina. welcome to the conversation. caller: hi. how many slaves did the jacksons have in tennessee and would those same slaves travel with them in the white house? >> thank you. either of you know the answer to that? pat: they had 300-odd slaves. it was a rather large plantation. but, no, nobody at the time would travel with large numbers of slaves. they would bring perhaps a couple of personal servants but things had become iffier as sentiment grew in the north and it became less and less possible to bring slaves to free territories.
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susan: so jackson wins election and comes to washington. tell the story of his inaugural party. michael: he has the inauguration, he arrives on horseback back to the president's house and the public is invited but there are about 20,000 people who had attended the inauguration so the house is open to the public and this is the democratic republic of the people of the west and they crash into the house and dance on the tables, they drink all the wine. there was a 1600 pound cheese that had been sent as a gift to the new president that was completely devoured during this time so the white house was really, really beaten up pretty bad. even jackson had to be escorted out because they feared for his safety. pat: he left the party early and went back to his hotel to go to bed. susan: over our past several programs, we have been talking about the burgeoning and strong washington society developing in the town.
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how did it react to this opening of the white house to the masses? pat: with horror, you know margaret smith, who was quite a socialite and kept diaries and letters said, oh, the pity, the pity, it's not the way it was with every other party after an inauguration, it was part of the select few who came, not the public. susan: once the party, the inauguration party was over, this is a man you described as being in intense mourning. was the white house social for a few years after that? pat: it wasn't social very much at all for the first year. they had to refinish it and replace all the drapes and chair seats where muddy boots had been trampling and put things together and even after that, to the disappointment of washington society, they said, we're in deep mourning, we will not be giving parties. susan: let's take a quick glimpse at america in that timed about census bureau statistics.
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this is america in 1830, population at this point, 12.9 million in 24 states and once again more than 30% growth since the 10 years earlier census. there were two million slaves, about 15% of the population. and the largest cities continued to be east coast -- new york philadelphia and baltimore. what else should people know about the period in this country? michael: it's a period of incredible change. much like the period that we've gone through in the last, with the information revolution. this was a huge period of change. we had gone from an agrarian society that thomas jefferson was talking to being of multiple ethnicities, multiple religions, waves of immigration, the railroads, the telegraph, all kinds of things were changing the way life was lived. susan: what was happening to the north-south unity at this point? were we seeing the seeds of the civil war? michael: north-south unity was a
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difficult one. the founding fathers had never settled that question because it wasn't easy to settle. by the time you get to 1820, we have an economic crisis in 1819 and then we have the admission of missouri and the missouri crisis which precipitates a free fix, we'll put in one free state and one slave state and won't talk about slavery anymore. by the time we're in the late '20's and early '30's, the spector of slavery is casting a shadow over america. susan: next question. caller: i was calling, chatham is the county seat of pennsylvania county, virginia, and we have in our courthouse a portrait of rachel because she was born here supposedly in 1767 which was the year we broke off and organized our county and her
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father was a surveyor and she supposedly left her when she was 12 and the gossip was that he had to leave town because they were kind of interested in some of his surveys but anyway, we do have the site marked and we have rocks left from the frame house. did virginia play any part -- you know. susan: thanks, mary. we'll pick it up from her. do you know this part of her biography? pat: it was where she was born and lived until she was 12 when they decided to go over the mountains to the new territory but basically we know nothing about her girlhood. we extrapolate it was like the girlhood of other children on the western edges of settled territory. susan: next is joellen in columbus, ohio. you're on the air. caller: hello. i was calling to see if rachel
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had any children. pat: no. despite her deep wish for children, rachel had no children. she was one of 11 and those of her brothers and sisters who married had very large families, as well. but she had no children of her own. she had -- they adopted one of twin sons that belonged to her brother and sister-in-law when they were middle aged so there was an andrew jackson jr. who was her nephew. susan: will you will you talk about the other opted boy? michael: and there was another son, jackson had been in battle and found -- and had slaughtered many people, women and children, found an infant, tried to give it back to a creek woman who was alive. she said, you'd best kill him, you've killed all of his family anyway. jackson takes him home and raises him as a son. it's a very interesting kind of story because here's jackson,
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the indian killer, and yet he's adopted this son and raises him as his own. patch:: he writes a lot of letters to rachel saying there's something special, he's an orphan, i was an orphan, there's some reason i found him and he's not to be in the servants' quarters. he's to be in the house and he's to be educated. he wanted to send him to west point but john quincy adams was president by then so it was impossible. susan: first year was a fairly quiet one and the social side of the white house and social means politics by this time in washington so at what point does he decide he actually needs assistance? pat: well, emily, rachel's niece and nephew, were with him all of this time, that they were so close, all these nieces and nephews, all named the same name so it's difficult sometimes to
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figure out which andrew donelson we mean but this particular young man had been one of their wards and became the president's secretary. he had married his first cousin, emily donelson, and they planned all along to come with the jacksons and they went ahead and accompanied him. susan: how did she create the role of first lady in the administration? pat: she had lovely manners. she was a very pretty girl young, in her early 20's. she had very good manners, had been trained in a lady's academy in nashville. michael: washington society loved her. pat: they loved her and one of the main reasons they loved her was because she was young and malleable and the old grande dames of washington could run all over her as they could not someone like rachel. they always liked the innocent young nieces. susan: as someone who cast himself as the people's president, he lived fairly large in the white house, it seems.
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fairly nice parties and lots of money spent on redecorating. how did that square with his public image? >> he believed with democracy with a small d and he was very concerned about moneyed interests and elites controlling the country so that is the core of the democracy he was trying to create. he really believed in people being part of the democracy. susan: but it didn't preclude entertaining. michael: it didn't preclude him being cultivated and having manners and becoming a lawyer and learning how to interact in society. pat: he always wanted to be a gentleman. that was one of his goals, to prove he was a gentleman and if you look at some of his controversies, they're because in the early days other men did not treat him as equals. susan: next up is lee in durango, colorado. caller: yes.
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i'd like to know, what was the big to-do about the election of 1828? we know what was said about rachel jackson, but what was the comments on the other side? michael: well, there were several -- among other things they said john quincy adams was a pimp which is the most ridiculous thing you could possibly image. it was based on a little thing but had nothing to do with sexual activities. they said a lot of bad things about adams and also about his wife. she was, after all, they believed, a foreigner. she was born in great britain even though she had american parents and legally was an american but they saw her as a possibly foreign influence. michael: and she wasn't happy in the white house particularly either. she was very cultivated and
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washington was a squat little town really at this time. susan: we promised scandal intrigue. it wasn't just in the 1828 and rachel jackson and the criticism she received but also what became known as the peggy eaton affair which colored and framed much of the jackson presidency. who was peggy eaton and how did this unfold? at:pat: peggy eaton was the daughter of a washington, d.c. hotel keeper, tavern owner. many politicians stayed in his hotel and the family got to know them well. she was beautiful. she was well educated. she liked to sing and perform. she actually sometimes appeared in public, which, god forbid any lady should do. so she was seen as not quite quite. michael: she was beautiful. she was vivacious, and she didn't really know her place. she really interfered and went into situations that were part of the men's women and this was
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a period in the american history which domesticity is specific and there's the women's sphere and the men's sphere and the women's sphere is to guard the household and the morals of society while the men go out and fight in this new capitalist world. margaret eaton and i call her margaret because that's what she liked to be called. i think peggy is a bit of an insult because she didn't like to be called that. she really was somebody who was going up against a different class and was going at it in a very difficult way. she was outspoken and bold and that was not a woman's role. susan: how did she become an issue for the cabinet? pat: her husband killed himself. he was a pursuer on a naval vessel, he killed himself so she was a widow. michael: with two children.
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pat: yes. and one person who had consistently lived at the o'neal's hotel was john henry eaton who was one of jackson's closest friends, supporters, a close friend and supporter of rachel throughout all the bad times and he was worried, at margaret's suggestion, that he might have ruined her reputation. there was a lot of talk they had had an affair and that's why her husband killed himself and so he asked jackson, should i marry her? and jackson said, certainly. he was always for love and romance. michael: and jackson was familiar with her. he stayed in the same boarding house and knew her when she was a young girl so he felt she was perfectly respectable and this was a good thing. susan: how did it rise to the level of a cabinet scandal? michael: they married too soon. she should have been mourning for at least a year and she married john eaton well before that and that was a problem.
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michael: -- pat: well, and besides that, once the cabinet was named and it includes eaton and his wife, whose social bona fides are not so good, and then she presses right ahead and goes and calls on one of the haughtiest of the wives of the other men, floride calhoun and floride refuses to return her call. in those days, that was akin to slapping someone in the face. michael: society was very structured and the protocol of society was very structured and the first person you would see when you came into town, you would visit the vice president and you would leave your card, so she started in on this process but she did it incorrectly and floride calhoun was not about to return a call to this woman. susan: it came to a point where
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jackson's cabinet was in an uproar and many resignations because of it. pat: all the wives except one refused to call on peggy eaton or when the president gave a big party and she was an honored guest often at his side attempting to force these women to recognize her, it was, hello, and they would walk on. everything was so cold and so ugly and margaret was totally mortified and the worst of all among those who gave the cut to margaret was emily donelson, his niece. susan: we have two quotes from andrew jackson at the time period that gives you the sense of the president's involvement and peak over the so-called petticoat affair. "do you suppose i have been sent here by the people to consult the ladies of washington as to the proper persons of the cabinet?" and to peggy eaton herself --
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did it become a constitutional crisis with his cabinet resigning? michael: well, it did, and unfortunately, it's jackson's gallant defending of margaret eaton that turns it from a social crisis into a political crisis. he couldn't leave it alone. he spent enormous amounts of time trying to defend her honor, getting affidavits about where she was, tracking down the people who made these terrible comments, and finally it becomes, in his mind, that it has to be an attack against him, as well, it's not just margaret, it's an attack against him. pat: that's when he grows to hate calhoun. michael: that's when he sees calhoun behind all of this. susan: bringing this back to niece donelson because you said she was malleable but also told
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us he could not abide by close people, especially family members, who disagreed with him. what happened between the two? pat: she was so influenced by the ladies that she joined in the -- really, the ostracism of margaret eaton and he demanded -- and she did receive her at the white house, but he demanded that she treat her as a friend and she would not and so he sent her home. susan: next is a question from john in annandale, virginia. hi, john. caller: hi, great series, as always. i'm wondering how andrew jackson's personality or approach was affected by him becoming a widower, if at all. i know wilson, for example quickly remarried, which wasn't the case here. but was there any noticeable change in him? michael: he was devastated.
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pat: yes. he was not just devastated though. he was embittered. his whole first term really didn't accomplish anything because he was either in mourning or he was attempting to help peggy eaton out, he was fighting with his favorite niece and nephew. he had to actually -- he asked his cabinet to resign. it was a whole huge thing that involved him because he saw her as a surrogate for rachel. if they could treat her this way, they might have treated his wife that way. and he could not let it go. susan: next up is a call from dorothy in westerville, ohio. hi. caller: hi. thank you so much for taking my call. the program has been remarkable so far. my question is, how did rachel deal with andrew jackson's fiery temper? i'll hang up and listen for your answer. susan: thank you.
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pat: the only person who actually could control jackson when he was in a rage was rachel. one particular time they were going down river and there was a boat ahead of them with a number of happy young bucks who were all drunk who were zigzagging, zigzagging, zigzagging, so their boat was held up and he took out a gun and he said, i'll just kill a couple of them and she stopped that whole operation. i don't know if he would have or not, but maybe. susan: next is nancy from new jersey. hi, nancy. caller: fabulous. i would like to know if either of your guests have seen the old movie depicting the jacksons with charlton heston and susan hayward. it showed a beautiful love story. was it accurate?
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pat: it wasn't particularly accurate but it had great looking actors and it was really romantic. i loved it. the book came out, "the president's lady" in 1961. it was a best seller for years. susan: last question for this part of our program is from gary robinson on twitter and it sets the stage for the next half hour of our conversation. what was secretary of state van buren's role in the petticoat affair and jackson's cabinet? michael: secretary of state van buren had the unfortunate benefit of being a widower himself so he didn't have to have this social political push from his wife as the other cabinet members did. he was free to go and see margaret eaton and he. did he called on her frequently. he treated her well, and he gained tremendous, tremendous respect from jackson for that.
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it's very interesting 19th century historian who says the whole political history of the last 30 years -- and he's writing at the beginning of the civil war -- can be attributed to the moment when the soft hand of martin van buren touched mrs. eaton's knocker. although there's a double entendre there, it points out the fact that martin van buren undercuts calhoun and steps in and places himself in position to be the next one to run for president where calhoun had been the natural choice. susan: how did it become a successful bid for the presidency? michael: it was somewhat complicated. he resigned. he got the -- he got eaton to resign, he got the rest of the cabinet to resign and then he got appointed -- jackson said you can't just resign, that's not good. i have to do something for you so he nominated him to be the minister, basically ambassador to great britain, and martin van buren left for great britain happy to be the new ambassador
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to the court of st. james and calhoun who was the seated vice president had the deciding vote in the senate on the appointment of this nomination and he cast a vote against it, infuriating jackson, and sealing van buren's future. susan: martin van buren comes to the white house, the first northerner, far northerner, new york state. michael: from new york state. susan: he was the first born as an american. michael: first born with american citizenship as his birth right. susan: and another first, the adams were of english heritage. he was dutch. michael: he grew up speaking dutch. english was a second language to him so he was from a different culture. susan: and a widower president coming to the white house. his wife died many years before and to set the stage for our conversation on his white house
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and first lady who served him, we're going to listen now to white house historian bill seale. >> president truman's favorite portrait because she was pretty. she was a southern belle, a tall girl. today you would say she was athletic looking. she married abraham van buren, met him at saratoga springs. she was from columbia, south carolina, was a belle and had plenty of money at the time. the singletons were a big, big family. she had plenty of money, bought pretty clothes. she was apparently a lot of fun so she and abraham went to europe on their honeymoon where she was introduced to young queen victoria approximately her age and was so excited about the way the queen received women that she came back to the white house and had a platform built at the end of the blue room which was called the blue room
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for the first time in that administration, van buren, and she received all her friends all in white at the end of the room and they just nodded, they didn't shake hands or anything. it was not taken very well at all. imagine a country that never allowed ambassadors to wear uniforms. they didn't like that at all so the platform was removed. she lived on to the 1870's in new york, married to abraham. and not a lot known about her. very few letters and she was i guess what you would call a belle at that time. she didn't worry about things much. susan: martin van buren came to the white house as a bachelor with a number of sons and was it a quiet place in his term here? pat: yes. it was very quiet. he was facing a tremendous political crisis because of the panic of 1837 which he inherited from jackson and jackson's policies.
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michael: several weeks after he was inaugurated so it struck like that. pat: and it went on so that he was a depression president. michael: this was the first huge economic depression the united states has had. we had a small one in 1819 but it wasn't nearly of this scale. basically, we had already had an interconnected global economy and there were calls out on banks from london, there were calls out to american banks, they didn't have the money. and they collapsed. and as the banking crisis started to go out, we don't have a national currency at this point, state banks started to collapse and everything dries up. susan: what was the depth of the depression for most americans? michael: oh, boy. by that may there were riots over food in new york city. it was really serious. pat: it was still going on in 1842, 1843. it didn't go away. michael: it got a little bit better but not nearly for a long time. it was really a good five years.
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susan: did he have a cabinet or his own personal ability to -- skill set to help resolve the crisis? pat: -- michael: well, presidents don't hold all these levers even now and this is before we have a fed although he did recommend an independent treasury system which is something like that but martin van buren and the democratic party had been arguing against federalism and against these federal projects so they sort of backed themselves into a corner on that. pat: i don't think anyone at that time could have dealt with a major depression. they just had to wait for the economy to heal. michael: they didn't have the tools. they really didn't know what was causing it and they certainly didn't have a structure in place, for example, we have the fed today that will loan money to banks that are having runs so they don't close and don't go under -- but we didn't really solve this problem until we got to the new deal. susan: and with this great trial going on in the rest of the country, how interested was the
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van buren administration in having a social side? >> he was a very social person. that was one of his great skill sets. charming little dinner parties. he was very personable. he, like jackson, always liked women and loved women friends so there was still -- there was still a social side to the white house because a lot of his politicking was done socially. pat: he would go elsewhere but in terms of large-scale entertaining, the new year's day party, which was traditional was pretty much his big party until his eldest son married angelica singleton. susan: here is where we bring in dolley madison and what role does she have to play in this administration? michael: -- pat: referred to by carl anthony brilliantly as the queen mother, i think, she had a beautiful cousin, angelica singleton martin van buren had four single
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sons including his secretary and chief aide and she introduced them all at a dinner party. susan: why was telemedicine back in washington? -- was dolly madison back in washington? pat: she immediately jumped into the social swing. susan: back to calls, terry in independence missouri. we have lost terry. it's go on sean in louisville kentucky. caller: i was calling first about mrs. jackson. i thought she had a son who
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passed away. and also, i would like to comment on angelica's impression with the press and hostess in the white house and abroad. and how dolly madison influenced her role as first lady. pat: there was an adopted indian child that had died. angelica singleton's first year -- then gearing spent the for -- martin van buren sprintspent the first year in the white house without a hostess. she was wildly successful in the 38-39 season. they went on an extended honeymoon for europe, where she
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met the queen of england and was presented in the court of louis. she had gone to a french academy and learned all this. so when she came back for the next season is when she sort of had a problem, and that's when she tried the open house at new year's. this is just the beginning of the next presidential election season and here is angelica with queenly matters. susan: here is a twitter question asking, did angelica van buren want to serve as first lady was just expected of her as the only woman in the family? pat: she was excited. it was all glamour and wonderment. susan: angelica van buren was a new bride which he took on her
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hostessing duties. what was public opinion of her? pat: at first it was very positive. she is pretty, she is young. it was the trip to europe that did her in and that did a great feel -- did a great deal of harm to the van buren administration. she was too naive to realize she had gone overboard and she was shocked when public opinion lashed out at her, because we were in a depression and here she was posing with ostrich feathers on a dais. susan: so how did she present herself? pat: they built it into the blue room. when i was here for martha, i said there was note dais -- there was no dais in the receiving room.
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she sat on a sofa. she built a platform, or the ostrich feathers, and after the newspapers and particularly the whip politicians -- the wing politicians talked about wasting the public money, they actually tore out the platform. susan: how well do the europeans received the first visit? michael: they were delighted. they really took europe by storm. susan: did that help in international politics? michael: not exactly. angelica's mother's brother was actually on the court of spain. he had recently picked up some guff because he was called a slave breeder by an irish militant.
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the publicity of angelica on a positive side didn't really cover up those deeper problems. susan: tonight we are telling the story of two widowed presidents who had relatives serve for them. a question on twitter: why was it so important for unmarried-widowed presidents to have a hostess and would it be true for a single president today? michael: i think there is some importance, not as much today as then. but in a parliamentary system you have a chief of state, and there is somebody to do those ceremonial duties. we pile that on to the president. there is an important role for a presidents partner. there is a social and entertaining piece that is there
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and i think it was difficult for bachelor presidents to pull that off. pat: the entertaining ladies of the time, there had to be a hostess. thomas jefferson was well-known for not being a good entertainer. for preferring an evening of men only with deep talks. when he did entertainment, he asked dolly madison or one of his daughters. but do have this large entertainment to greet the ladies, you need a lady at hand. michael: this is a house and it is the woman's sphere again. it is the white house, so it is a hardly charged -- a highly charged political sphere, but it is the women's sphere. there is a tension between politics and society. caller: my question is, when angelica was presented to queen victoria, what was victoria's
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initial impression of angelica? pat: we were told that she was charmed by victoria but we don't know of any subsequent correspondence. pat: i really think the european court were fascinated and relieved that they turned out to be civilized, that they weren't backwoods barbarian's, which is what they expected of americans. michael: angelica was extremely wealthy. she had a great interest in fashion. so she would have come in the finest and the best. she was polished. susan: this is two different family cultures. she came from a wealthy
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slaveholding family in the south. the van buren's from new york state were very different. pat: van buren was not a backward country man, he loved society. he was known as the little magician. a lot of men who didn't like tim, like calhoun, said that he just appeals to the ladies. he works through the ladies, through the backdoor. he had become very social and so are his son's. martin van buren is responsible for the universal expression ok. michael: during the election of 1840 supporters of him started the phrase -- supporters of him
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kicked up the phrase in boston. caller: i would like to know whether angelica did anything beyond hostessing, whether she did any public policy advising. many were disappointed in not being helped with their causes because they were not being helped with their other issues. when she only a hostess and dealt with nothing in the public's beer -- public sphere. michael: there is no evidence of her delving into politics. she really does not express a political view. susan: but her influence in politics was a negative one of
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the purse active of the administration. pat: she was young and she made mistakes. susan: did she did -- did she recover? pat: she did, i think. but by then, the administration was about over anyways. michael: angelica wasn't going to sink the administration. not to mention this terrible depression, but there were some serious issues that the united states was just really coming to talk about, with slavery being a huge one, indian removal being a huge one. these were big, difficult issues. and the north and the south are pulling apart from each other and the room for negotiation is rapidly evaporating. susan: do you know anything in more detail of the question from the color from utah about the mormons?
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michael: i don't. susan: i think a call from bill in staten island, new york. caller: here is another sidebar. in that gore vidal book about ehrenberg, he insinuates that -- about aaron burr, he insinuates that burr is the true father. michael: i would say it is a delightful tale but it is almost impossible. although during the campaign of 1840, that was certainly raised. then garin had been and it -- martin van buren had been a close associate of ehrenberg -- associate of aaron burr. the likelihood that martin van buren's mother, living in new york after having all these kids
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already was having an affair with aaron burr is highly unlikely. susan: stephanie johnson on twitter would like to know: pat: yes she did. here is this thing about young women in the white house. they are pregnant much of the time. they are either pregnant or giving birth. michael: angelica is pregnant twice in the white house. the first child, she lost. shortly after that, she retreated from public life because she was already pregnant and women were kept in private after that. pat: and she had three boys after the presidency. susan: terry in independence missouri. caller: high, i was wondering
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why martin van buren didn't marry after his wife died? michael: michael: they had all of these children together, they grew up together. he has are reinterred in kinderhook later in his life. we don't have too many stories of him having romantic dalliances with other women or even possibly proposing. he has friendships with women but he never seems to have another romantic connection. susan: why did martin van buren even mention hannah in his autobiography? michael: he did not mention her. it is a rambling autobiography but it is 8000 pages long.
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his son wanted to name the girl after his mother and he wrote to his father, was her name hannah or anna? he always kept a locket with a painting of her with him and that is all we know. susan: we're going to take people by video to a place you know well which is the historic home, now historic home, that the van buren's occupied. michael: this is the house that them during bought while he was president. he bought it in case the white house didn't work out, and we know that it didn't. it was also the ancestral home of one of his nemesis in kinderhook so he was very pleased to acquire that property. susan: we will visit it in kinderhook, new york. >> angelica and her husband abraham would spend the summer's here.
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there were occasions they would spend some of the winter months here but they would spend most of the summer's here. here in the dining room, angelica van buren would have served as hostess. van buren had social and political events here and during that time, if angelica was in residence, would be the hostess. she was well refined given that she was so wealthy. so much so that even the ambassador from france, who is typically critical of american manners and social graces, commented angelica van buren. martin van buren bought this home in 1839 along with 130 acres. later he added 100 acres and had a successful farm here. typically, the women of the house would engage in a variety of activities. they would read or recite from memory to one another. they would often times play
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parlor games in here. angelica van buren was trained in philadelphia on the heart. there were occasions -- on the harp. we have a harp here and there were occasions that she would have played. this is a much more intimate room compared to the main hall. it is the place where the family had their daily meals. the china you see here monogrammed with vb is the daily china that they used in the household here. you can imagine angelica serving somebody t from the picture or passing the gravy boat. in july of 1843, while angelica and abraham were visiting her father, she suffered a miscarriage. we'll from letters that she wrote, that during that time she convalescent on this couch here in the main hall. earlier, as she was serving as
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hostess at the white house she had another baby die as an infant. they did have three sons that would live to adulthood. abraham and angelica van buren would have spent a great amount of time when they were visiting her father-in-law. we have several dresses that were owned by angelica van buren and it is easy to imagine her wearing them at one of the events here or even perhaps at the white house. the parasol, she likely would have used during the summer months while she was out strolling on the grounds. it was a large farm of 240 acres. i believe that martin van buren and his daughter-in-law had a very close relationship. he was a very amiable man. that's why he was very successful in politics. and she was trained in the social graces of the 19th century. i think they genuinely cared for one another. susan: we were looking at some of the really beautiful clothes.
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they are in different places. we have been talking throughout the series about these early first ladies and whether or not they influenced fashion trends. looking at these close, was angelica van buren a fashion trendsetter? pat: she certainly was for that proportion of society they could afford those kind of dresses. she was definitely, like jackie kennedy, someone to be emulated. susan: let's talk about kinderhook. michael: this is a period in american history where farming was actually something you can make money on. van buren actually did put a lot of money into running it as a productive farm. he make money doing it. so that was an important component -- important component of life at the farm. he also has family there.
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he had cousins and eases and nephews of his wife's brothers and sisters. he had families stay there. he would -- it was a house full of family. he left the white house although he never claimed to run again. he certainly made it clear that if the country called for him that he would do his duty. in 1844, he really thought he would get the democratic nomination in baltimore and he didn't. it was a big deal and it was another major crack in this national party between north and south. susan: what about his bid for the free-spoilers? michael: like another dutch president theodore roosevelt martin van buren comes up to
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1848 and makes a pretty substantial decision that he is going to go against what he's dead -- what he spent his life working for, a united national democratic party. he would run a third-party campaign with his son john. he runs on the free soil or for liberty ticket. it was really a forerunner of the republican party. they believed in free soil, free labor, and freemen. susan: is there any evidence that angelica or her husband were involved in the president's future ambitions? pat: not really. michael: john was involved because john state political. abraham van buren went to west point with jefferson davis and robert e lee. he had friends on other sides of this issue. pat: i think what is interesting
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is that after she is widowed -- or even before, she spends the rest of her life in new york city. caller: i grew up in kinderhook in the 1930's and 1940's. my recollection of the farm was that it was an abandoned home that was in total disrepair. the grounds were totally wild and any evidence of the farm was totally absent. the question is, at what point was this property -- did this property get improved?
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my recollection is that a man with some wealth bought the property and started repairing it and then the government took it over. michael: your memory is quite accurate. the family lost the farm after van buren died. it became recently a very large and ornate farmhouse. by that i can 30's it had been sort of run down. they tried to make a tea-house out of it, a couple of the things. it basically had never been owned by someone with enough money to do anything great for it. the person who bought the house trying to restore it somewhat. and then legislation was passed to make it part of the national park service and it was the national park service that restore the house in the 1980's. susan: next is a call from
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marilyn in sarasota, florida. caller: i'm really enjoying your program. i'm wondering what angelica's husband abraham did when she was acting as hostess in the white house. and where they lived well she was there. pat: they lived in the white house. the president's staff always lived in the white house in the 19th century. that's why they usually had relatives, because they want to people they would get along with. they lived in the family quarters and abraham was the secretary and the principal aid to his father. he had been to west point and fought in the civil -- and fought in the war. susan: did anyone ever mention
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hannah? pat: the only thing i really wants to say was that than pure and was not so odd about not mentioning his wife. many 19th-century leaders would talk about their lives without mentioning wives or children. that was so personal, it had nothing to do with their success. susan: we have about seven minutes left and what i like to do is wrap all of this up. took about the time. -- the time period. two administrations twined with scandal politics. let's talk in a broad sense about the changing country and the changing political parties. michael: i think one of the major things we forget because we are so comfortable about the united states being a two-party system. we forget that during the early
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republic, there wasn't a two-party system. the founding fathers hated parties and thought they would be terrible for democracy. it really is this generation, particularly with martin van buren, who says wait a minute, we need to have an ordered structured system. we have to have a philosophy, we have to show up together, and we have to hang together, or the sections of the country or these differences, will spin out of control. pat: it grew like crazy. at the beginning, it was basically just a big swamp with a lot of trees and dirt. there would be a house here and in building their. but it finally became a city and a place to take account of.
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but i think what is so important about this is that it is the time when steamboats have changed the whole situation about sailing from the south that the slave power is growing. it is the most profitable part of the country, and abolition sentiment is growing like crazy in the north. that is what we see somebody like van buren running on a free soil ticket, which is in fact an abolitionist party. michael: this great elephant in the middle-of-the-road which is slavery really comes to focus and we have set the stage for the coming of the most horrific test of democracy that we had the civil war. susan: and interestingly, during this time bank -- time period, we had two apolitical first
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ladies. how does the white house changed during these years? michael: during the jackson administration, the portico was added. then gearing redecorated the white house, put in plumbing and central heating. the blue room was first called the blue room during the van buren administration. pat: jackson had spent a lot of money on it as well. one theme, if you're following the history of that building, is that it starts out a certain way and then it gets all run down and things break, just how it does with your own house. they keep putting off repairs. when they do them, they are pretty much needed. susan: especially if your andrew jackson and you bring in 20,000 people.
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caller: i was wondering why did they usually marry their relatives. susan: can i also ask you how old you are? are you learning a lot watching this program? caller: 12. yes. pat: particularly in frontier settlements, where there were a limited numbers of people, other times your cousins would be the only ones available to you. so it was not uncommon at all. it really wasn't even uncommon for double first cousins to marry, which sometimes happened as well. people didn't think there was anything odd about it because you knew what that person was like, you knew all about them, and there wouldn't be any bad surprises. michael: van buren's case, he
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was a dutch speaker and he married into the dutch community in the hudson river valley. susan: i want to show you a book. this is her story about rachel and andrew jackson. it is available for those of you who want to learn more. let me have isabella and also your book, talk about a theme. what was the role for women to influence politics in this period? pat: during the abolitionist movement, there were many women reformers. it wasn't so peculiar to see women have opinions. earlier, when you say, did these
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young girls actually have any political influence? not at all, and people thought that was the right thing. but that was changing drastically. susan: how did the ways during the administration feel at the panic of 1837? pat: -- michael: they, like everybody else, didn't know what was going on. susan: one last call is john in oklahoma city. caller: my question is, i have always heard that the van buren's spoke dutch in the white house. what president's family spoke foreign language in the white house and the only answer that is normally given is the family of martin van buren. michael: i don't believe that
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his children did, so i doubt that he spoke dutch in the white house. by the time you get to his retirement, he talks about writing out to the countryside to talk to the people that speak dutch. in that period to his birth and retirement, the dutch speaking in the hudson valley began to die out. susan: he lost the election and what happens next? michael: when van buren goes home? susan: who comes to the white house? michael: william henry harrison comes in and unfortunately catches pneumonia during inauguration and dies 31 you days later. -- 31 days letter. pat: and john tyler comes in. susan: thanks to both of you for being here tonight to talk us
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through 12 years of interesting early american history. a very changing country. we appreciate your time. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014]

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