preciate them f there are no further questions, the hearing record will remain open until next tuesday may 19 nl at noon for subcommittee members to submit any statements or questions to the witnesses for the record. the subcommittee hearing is herebyadjourned. is hereby adjourned.

we're live on capitol hill for future of u.s.-cuba relations. we'll be hearing from roberta jackson. she is president obama's point person for implementing changes in u.s. policy since at announced new initiatives a couple months ago and has been negotiating with cuba for months to re-estabilsh diplomatic relations. senator bob corker is the foreign relations committee

chair. and this is live coverage on c-span3.

senate foreign relations committee will come to order. thank you guys. thanks for your interest. today we'll hear from the state department's assistant secretary for western hemisphere affairs on the strategy behind the president's significant shift in u.s. policy towards cuba. assistant secretary jacobson is

joined at the witness table by the counsellor of the state department ambassador thomas shannon. we welcome you both. cuba has been left behind politically and economically, a far cry from a time decades ago when it was among the most prosperous countries in the region. administration administration's cuba policy initiative has been welcomed in latin america and the caribbean. but significant differences which we'll hear today of opinion exist in the united states over the extent to which change -- this change in policy will advance u.s. interests and improve circumstances for the cuban people. today we look forward to our witnesses to speak to how our nation can best engage strategically with the region and beyond to help cuba rejoin the mainstream of americas and offer its citizens the same rights and freedoms enjoyed by citizens of other countries in the region. to this end, our witnesses can

help us understand that administration's policy goals. with regards to cuba. what do they intend to achieve in restoring full diplomatic relations and relaxing sanctions? we would also like to hear their assessment of what the cuban government goals are for engaging and this diplomatic process with the united states. every policy initiative will inevitably come into contact with the reality that the cuban state and most importantly the cuban states' relationship with its own citizens have not yet changed. in truth, we have to define what a normal relationship with cuba looks like bilaterally. but also in the context of our relationship with the americas more broadly. our overall relations with latin america and the caribbean have evolved significantly over past decades. the last unilateral u.s.

military intervention in the region occurred more than 20 years ago in haiti. u.s. trade with latin america and the caribbean have more than doubles from 2000 to 2012. and the process of opening to increased trade with the united states and each other latin american countries have taken steps to adopt market reforms and create more transparent legal and investment standards. the norm is for regular multiparty elections and more broadly interamerican institutions today reflect the commitment by the region to more democratic inclusive governments. the u.s. relationship with latin america is very different than it was during the spanish-american war in 1898 or during the cold war in 1959. this is the larger strategic context in which the way forward for our relations with cuba will be defined and we thank you both very much for being here. i look forward to the opening comments of our distinguished

ranking member, senator carter. >> well thank you, mr. chairman. i certainly welcome our witnesses today. i thank you very much for conducting this hearing. there's no question that the december 17th action by president obama and his historical speech marked a moment in our relationships towards cube yachlt there are members of this committee who believe it went too far. there are members of this committee who think it didn't go far enough. but one thing i think is critically important is that we have a open committee hearing and discussion on these issues. that's why i particularly thank the chairman for bringing forward this hearing so that we can engage a discussion on the new direction with cuba. on that date also we celebrate long overdue return to the united states of a maryland resident allen gross and mr. chairman by consent i would ask that his statement be included in our record.

we all are interested to hear from our witnesses that today's hearing provides an important opportunity to review the advances achieved under the administration's new cuba policy and understand that the strategy for moving forward. without a doubt this is a complicated process and will take time to achieve the progress we want. i want to underscore that there is one issue that i think united states us even though we may have different views as to where we should move with the cuban policy. and that one area that i think unites every member of this committee and the united states senate is that we all stand together and our aspirations to see the cuban people have the opportunity to build a society where human rights and fundamental freedoms are respected and democratic values and political plural six tolerated and where individuals can work unobstructed to improve living conditions. this is particularly true with the afro cuban population.

we also share concerns about the critical issues such as the cuban government's on going abuses of human rights and the presence of american fugitives in cuba, especially those wanted for the murder of u.s. law enforcement. how can we best advance the adds conspiraciations while also addressing the concerns? our previous policy did not achieve the progress that we wanted to see. so a new approach is needed. they laid out a new path based on the believe that principled engagement brings new results. i think this is the right path to follow for the following reasons. first, for far too long the cuban government has used u.s. policy as an excuse to justify its shortcomings and hardships of the cuban people. the cuban government xploided policy for diplomatic gains, focusing international debate about what the u.s. should do rather than about what cuba

needs to do to better provide for its citizens. this has been a particular challenge here in our own hemisphere where governments and our closest partners preferred to speak out critically about the u.s. policy rather than about the conditions on the island. the president's policy has reset the gee yoe political calculus in the region and will provide new opportunities for cooperation in our latin american and caribbean partners. the recent summit of the americas and panama showcase this point clearly and both president obama and u.s. were praised widely for leadership. in one particular important development, the presidents of costa rica and uruguay met with president obama in meeting with cuban dissidents. this was an incredibly important moment. it showed the international community. i want to thank senator boxer. senator box her a chance to hear from mr. costa that you invited

to that hearing. i think that was an important point also. such acts of seeing latin american presidents meeting the u.s. president was unthinkable just six months ago. second despite differences we may have with the government, our foreign policy should always endeavor to support the country's people to the greatest degree possible. when president obama first came to office in 2009, he created greater flexibility for people to visit families if cuba and sent remitt enss to the islands. the early policy changes provided important support to the emerging entrepreneurs that have been able to launch new economic initiatives often working out of their own homes. the cuban government limits the activities widely and they're not all able to take advantage of them u.s. policy is directly responsible for helping the cuban people improve living conditions and achieve new

degree of independence from the cuban government. the december announcement went one step further and made it easier for u.s. citizens to engage in travel from cube yachlt whether for democratic or philanthropic or business reasons, u.s. citizens now have greater opportunities to take part in people to people programs that provide increase interaction with the people of cuba. i have no doubt that the american society will make a positive contribution to empowering the cuban people and provide them with the resources they need. while they make changes to travel regulation, there is some think that only congress can do. for that reason i am a co-sponsor of senator flake's freedom to travel to cuba act. we must robust ties and i think we'll have the opportunity to discuss that bill during this hearing. then third, the administration's new cuba policy will provide u.s. and especially our

diplomats with new tools to engage directly with the cuban government to have principle and frank discussions about the issues we disagree about. and how we might work together to better have a common interest on resolving the interests. every day our diplomats around the world demonstrate their ability to engage foreign governments and advance u.s. national interests. it's not unreasonable to think that we'll have a better chance to address the outstanding claims held by u.s. citizens for proper confiscated by the cuban government or to secure the return of american fugitives to face justice in the united states if we actually engage in direct dialogue with the cuban government and articulate our demands. when it comes to issues of confronting counter narcotics trade or addressing migration issues, it's a national interest of both the united states and cuba to have channels of communication between our two governments. diplomacy will make this possible. the cuban policy put the united states in the right path. we must remain clear eyed about several issues and we must continue to speak out about them.

we cannot ignore the cuban government's record of human rights or human trafficking. every month there are way too many cases where the cuban government jails political activists for what they believe in, what they say publicly. freedom of expression must be central to all of our engagements with the cuban government. i know he led a human rights dialogue with the cuban government earlier this year. and i welcome our witnesses' comments on this development. mr. chairman, as i said initially, we do welcome the witness that's are testify today. i thank you again for this opportunity for our committee. >> thank you very much. now i will -- our first witness is the honorable roberta jacobson. she is the assistant secretary for state for western hem is sphere affairs. assistant secretary jabcobson established diplomatic relations and our second witness is ambassador thomas shannon.

he is the counsellor to the state department. most recently served as american ambassador to brazil. among his duties he's also served as senior director for the western hem is sphere at the national security council. we thank you both for being here. you can keep your comments as fairly brief as you wish and we accept your written testimony into the record. thank you. >> thank you so much, mr. chairman and ranking member for the opportunity to testify on u.s. cuba policy today and your interest in the hemisphere more broadly. let me underscore this unique moment in the america's for the united states. it's remarkable to see how u.s. relations with countries of the hemisphere are increasingly characterized by mature partnerships and shared values and interests. the partnerships we have with canada brazil, chile, colombia and so many others is

extraordinary. i am especially i had proud of the renewed commitment to working with central america and our $1 billion 2015 request that we believe will strengthen prosperity and good governance. since i last appeared in february, we began to see the administration's new approach on cuba providing space for other nations in the hem is sphere and around the world to promote respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms in cube yachlt at the summit of the americas in panama engagement by the president and secretary reinvigorated our momentum. our approach drawn attention to the potential for greater political and economic freedom for the cuban people and the gap between cuba and other countries in the hemisphere. more americans are traveling to cube yashgs meeting cubans and building shared understanding between our people. we have see dialogue with people in cuba and issues like maritime and aviation security set telecommunications and environmental cooperation.

our future discussion onz law enforcement cooperation coupled with on going migration talks will expand the avenues available to seek the return of american fugitives from justice among other issues. and we're planning on future talks on human rights and settling american claims for property. most importantly, the new approach makes clear the u.s. can no longer be blamed as an obstacle to progress on such thins as access to information or connecting cubans to the world. on thish u i'm a realist and as anyone who ever dealt with cuba knows realists, being a realist is essential. indeed, as the pre president made clear prior to his historic meeting with castro at the summit significant differences remain between our two governments. we continue to raise our concerns regarding democracy, human rights and freedom of expression. the policy is based on a policy

that determines this tomorrow determine their own future by creating new economic opportunities and increasing contact with the outside world. these changes create new connections between our countries and help the private sector in cuba. but comprehensive changes in our economic relationship will require congressional action to lift the embargo and the president urged conditioning to begin that effort. the administration's decision to recind cuba's designation as a state sponsor of taker itch was a fact-based process as the president has emphasized. while progress has been made if our efforts to re-estabilsh diplomatic relations, we are not there yet. there are still outstanding issues that need to be addressed to ensure a future u.s. embassy will be able to function more like other diplomatic missions in cuba and wrels in the world. but even today under challenging circumstances, our diplomats unite families through our immigration processing providing american citizens services, issue visas and aid in refugee resettlement.

they work hard to represent the issues and values of the united states. our engagement with the broadest range of cubans will expand once we establish diplomatic relations with cuba and tomorrow we'll be holding a new round of talks with our cuban counterparts to advance these objectives. as we move the process ahead we hope we can also work together to find common ground towards our shared goal of enabling the cuban people to freely determine their own future. thank you. i welcome your questions. >> mr. chairman ranking member and members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to appear before you. as the chairman noted, we submitted our testimony. so i will just hit a few of the high points. i would like to start by saying it's a pleasure to appear before you. roberta jacobson served as our diplomat in the americas.

i want to address the regional context in which our cuba policy is unfolding and to lay out the strategic dimensions of our diplomacy. >> our purpose is not to defend or preserve a presence or restore a past, it is to create the future. and he noted that our global engagement whether it is diplomacy or force of arms is meant to defend one kind of future against another kind of future. it is in this light that we should understand the president's policy towards cuba. the decision to engage with cuba and seek normalization of our bilateral relationship attempts to create a new terrain on which to pursue a future that correspondence to our values. our commitment to democracy and human rights and hope they know the benefits of liberty and know the sovereigns of their own destiny is no less for our action. the president has been clear about the commitment in our policy to enduring principles of

self government and individual liberty. however, he is also clear about our inability to affect significant change in cuba act ago lone across so many decades. instead, he determined that our efforts would be more effective if we could position cuba squarely within an interamerican system that recognizes democracy as a right that belongs to all the peoples of our hemisphere. that believes that democracy is essential to the political economic and social development of our peoples and has the instruments, treaties and agreements to give shape form, and weight to the commitments. it's our determine that is this kind of environment would be the most supportive to support the only legitimate agent of enduring political change in cube yachlt the cuban people. to understand this point better, it is worth while to take a closer look at what the hemisphere cuba is a part of looks like in the second decade of the 21st century. the americans and specifically americas and specifically latin america has anticipated

manufacture the events that are shaping our world today. it is a region that has largely moved from authoritarian to democratic government from closed to open economies, from exclusive to inclusive societies, from a development to regional development. there are a few points worth making in this regard. first, latin america is the first region in the world and the developing world to committee itself to democracy. it was also the first region to establish regional and subregional instruction tours to promote and defend human rights and to build subregional institutions and mechanisms for dialogue. because of this, it has also built shared economic understandings including a commitment to market economies, free trade and regional integration. but perhaps most dramatically latin america today is pursuing a second generation of change or trance formation. it is attempting to use democratic governance and democratic institutions to build democratic societies and states.

the great experiment is to show that democracy and markets can deliver economic developmen and can address the social inequities of poverty inequality and social exclusion. the profound changes unleashed in latin america show that democracy and markets can deliver economic development. and latin america used democracy and markets to launch a peaceful, social revolution that is transforming many countries in the region and long lasting ways. our ability to promote profound and dramatic change in latin america is an example of what the united states can accomplish through diplomacy and engagementf we accomplished such a transformation in our hemisphere, why not try the same approach with cuba? better yet yshgs not try it in partnership with countries and institution that's are now prepared to work with us because of the president's new policy? cuba finds itself today part of

a dynamic region where change is the watch word. it finds itself in a region where the change will continue to reshape political and economic and social landscapes in such an environment that the cuban people will find many models and partners from which to learn and choose. we should be one of the mod ldz and models and partners. thank you very much for this opportunity to speak. we look forward to your questions. >> thank you both. i want to thank the committee for the way that it has handled what i think have been really difficult issues since we began this year. and i know there is significant differences of opinion relative to the cuba policy that's been laid out. i'm really glad we have the differences of opinion represented here. i look forward to a robust q&a. one of the questions that i've had from the very beginning has been what are the specific

changes within cuba that we have negotiated or asked for as it relateses to this policy change? it's my sense that there have really been none. i wonder if you might expand on that. it's been a question that most people have asked that have not been following the cuba situation nearly as closely as you. that is, are there specific things that we expect cuba to do in return for this change in policy towards them? >> thank you mr. chairman. i think that as we move forward with this policy what's important to understand is the majority of the things that the president did he took action on because he believes strongly we believe that they are in our interests and in the interests of the cuban people.

the change as lou for greater purposeful travel that allow for support from americans to the emerging private sector in cuba. indeed the normalization to pursue engagement. normalization and re-estabilshment of diplomatic relations should be worked out mutually with the cuban government. they were not negotiated with the cuban government. they were action ands policies taken unilaterally by us. we believe that over time, especially things like support for emerging private sector entrepreneurs and in particular the hopefully the increase in telecommunications and information technology in cubal make a big difference in the ability of cuban citizens to

determine their own future. so they were not negotiated with the cuban government, per se. >> ambassador shannon you want to expand on that any? >> i think she covered it. >> okay. >> i was going to go in a different direction, but since you mentioned technology, it is interesting that u.s. companies were going to be more involved technology-wise. but it's my understand thagt cuban government doesn't really allow much access relative to the outside world with communications. so i'm just wonldering we made a big deal out of that announcement. what is the net effect of it if the government doesn't allow citizens to participate in that way? >> well, i think it's very important that the cuban government has said as part of the u.n.'s efforts to open information to citizens around the world that they want to expand access for the cuban

people. we are hopeful that that will happen. right now, there is not access for most cubans. it's very expensive. it's not available and it's not necessarily something they can have in their own homes. but the ability of the cuban kbost and cuba in general to have a more up to date modern infrastructure on telecommunications and information is something that is critical to the modernization of the cuban economy. and, therefore we would like american companies to be part of bringing better information technology to cuba which is why the president felt it was important to allow american companies to do so. the cuban government hasn't yet made decisions to move forward with that. but there are american companies that are talking with the cuban government. and there's no doubt that there is a desire for greater information by the cuban people and we would like to do everything we can to enable

that. >> what is it you think will be the response by the cuban government? in other words, what do you think, even though we didn't negotiate or even though we didn't try to leverage in any way, what do you suspect that policy -- what are the policy changes that will occur inside cuba as a result of these changes? >> well, there is already been under way in cuba, obviously some limited economic reforms. at built of half a million or more entrepreneurs to go into 200 or so approved businesses business areas in private business, self employment. that is an area i think that is really right for support. that regulations support. i would hope there will be many more of these entrepreneurs

emerging and that they will be able to prosper and expand and be agents for change within cuba. there is obviously very different views on political system as well as the economic system of cuba. the president's been clear about that. we think engagement by americans with cubans that are there for limited travel and the ability for the private sector to increase and hopefully information to increase. and we're not sure what the cuban government will do in the face of these things. i think they're still absorbing our changes and making their own policy decisions. but we know from polling that's been done inside cuba that the narrative of the u.s. being

responsible for economic privatization and other disadvantages of the cuban people is no longer blamed on the united states. that narrative is eroding. >> okay. thank you. i want to thank you for the time you spent in my office on another matter. i know we talked about the region in general. i wonder if ambassador shannon you might talk a little bit about the effect that this policy announcement has had on our ability in the region to discuss other issues of importance. >> thank you very much, senator. this is an important component of our policy. because we believe that the decision to engage with cuba removes an irritant that has not only limited where we can work with some of our partners and others in the region, but it has

also over time degraded some of our most important multilateral institutions especially in the interamerican system, within the oas and summit of the america's process. i mentioned in my testimony the region built a series of subregional mechanisms and institutions to build dialogue. for the most part this is very positive. but in some instances, some of these institutions have been decided -- have been built and speaking in particular of the community of latin america and caribbean nations to permit caribbean and latin american countries to have a conversation among themselves with cuba where we are not present. and this is in the long term is not in our advantage. and, therefore by working towards normalization, we actually create an opportunity for the interamerican system to reassert itself as the premier political economic and social institutions in the americas. i believe this is an opportunity that we need to take advantage

of. but in regard to cube yashgs the region understands and knows that cuba is the only country in the hemisphere that has not made an explicit commitment to democracy and is not recognized through the charter democracy as a right of all the people of the americas. and although they have taken different approaches than we, have we're now in a position to be able to press them to work harder on democracy and human rights issues inside of cuba. let me quote from the human rights where cuba is a authoritarian station where elections are neither free nor fair. and quoting "the principle human rights abuses were the abridgement of citizens to use government threats, extra judicial physical violence intimidation, mobs harment detention to prevent free expression of peaceful assembly the following additional abuses continue harsh prison

conditions, aesh contrary arrests, tlektive prosecutions and denial of fair trials. then it goes on to say interfere with privacy engage in pervasive monitoring of private communications, do not respect the freedom of speech. severely restrict internet access. monopoly of media outlines, economic freedoms, maintain significant restrictions on ability of religious groups refuse to recognize independent human rights groups prevent workers from forming unions, exercising the labor rights, most human rights aofficials were at the directionst government. impunity for perpetrators remain widespread. that is the most recent report from the state department. and the independent human rights organization, the human commission for human rights and national reconciliation have documented in the first four months of this year about 1600 cases of arbitrary political detentions which is the same was we have seen historic fli cuba

over the last three years. i mention that because i want to get specific here for a moment as to how you intend to evaluate cuba's progress on the human rights and use our tools at our disposal to advance that. i use as an example the osce which is a consensus organization without enforcement and yet it's known globally for the commitment to advance human rights much it's linked to the groups. i'm not aware of it having the same effectiveness in terms of advancing human rights. how do you intend to use the oas? how do you intend to use the united nations now that we removed this obstacle as you see it as for having credibility to raise these issues? how do we intend to use u.s. leadership to advance human rights progress in cuba and how

can we evaluate what we're making progress in that area? >> senator, thank you. i think there are a couple things. first, there's no doubt that we will continue to write human rights reports that are honest and unflinching in what they describe as going on in cuba. that there continue to be these short term detentions that should not be going on harassing individual human rights activists groups, prevebting them from having their rights exercised. and so there is a range of tools. one of which the president highlighted in terms of speaking out. but we also now have another tool at our disposal which is direct engagement including the human rights dialogue which will move forward. there is no doubt from the preliminary conversations we've had that we have very different views of human rights and universal internationally

recognized human rights. in addition, in terms of international organizations and our ability to workive effectively in those organizations, yub is suspended from the oas. they have been since 1962. but the questions of looking at human rights issues in cuba as ambassador shannon said, whether they are living up to the commitments that all of the rest of us have made in the hem is fear through the interamerican charter and human rights, those are tools which we are more able to use reference and discuss with our partners who i think are much more engaged in having that discussion with us post policy engagement. >> how would that be reflected? i understand that. i said that in my opening

comments. how come we know that we're making progress? what specific agenda items do you intend to do? and what allies will we have it hold cuba accountable? >> obviously, the best metrics of progress is on the ground in terms of, you know, whether it's a reduction in short term detentions or a growing ability by cube abs of all stripes to be able to speak and be able to exercise their democratic rights. i think the president was pretty clear on our also understanding the change is not going to come to cuba overnight. as we work on this, we have to understand that empowering cubans and to take their own responsibility for these rights there will be progress and there will be setbacks.

we will speak out about those. we'll work with other countries in the various international organizations. i can't tell you exactly what the agenda, where we'll talk with other countries. we'll certainly do so at the oas. we'll do so in the u.n. bodies. whether that is the u.n. human rights council or other instruments such as those. >> what leverage will we exercise over cuba in regards to our expectations that they will make progress on these internationally recognized human rights standards? >> i think one of the things that is most important is the ability to have embassies and to carry out the functions under the vee yaenienna conventions to travel around cuba and to be able to interact with the widest number of cuban citizens which we've not been able to do up until now. and that is critical that our diplomats be the first person observers of things which hasn't been the case in the past.

that is obviously something we're work onging on right now. >> what countries in our hem is sphere do you believe can you work closest with in putting pressure on cuba to comply with international recognized human rights? >> i think that the ambassador may have more to say about this. my own view is there are many countries in the hemisphere that will work with us whether it's publicly or behind the scenes. countries that committed or obviously democratic countries committed to human rights. you know countries around the hemisphere such as costa rica and uruguay and colombia and peru and mexico which have worked on tough human rights issues around the hemisphere and will be in conversations with us. many in the region in, the caribbean and central america will be working with us on this committed to the same principles. >> thank you. >> senator?

>> senator, thank you. before i get to my questions, want to ask you, you discussed that we're if the discussions with the cubans and we have different views on human rights. i don't mean to say this is what you meant but let's be clear. these are not different views that are legitimate. this is a view of human rights we have and they have which under no circumstances fits under definition of human rights. their views on human rights were not legitimate. they're immoral. the notion can you round up people and arrest them because they disagree with the government, the theory can you send thugs to panama to breed on activists. we would say this up front, right? they're flat out wrong and immoral in their views. >> we have said clearly that we don't think those views accord with international standards and the universal declaration of human rights. >> so the cubans are flat out wrong when it comes to human rights? >> on repressing people's rights to free speech and assembly, dwoent think they're correct. >> there is no moral he quif lens between our rights and

theirs? >> i didn't say that. i would not. that is not what i wanted to say. >> g i wanted to get that clear. let's talk about travel. the truth is going from hotel magazine hotel magazine wrote a few years ago that -- a prominent subsid air yif the holding company that controls the entire cuban economy, it is also the largest hotel conglomerate in latin america and the caribbean. they have the walt disney company's holds and run by a person with a long name. he is raul castro's son-in-law. let me read something that the newspapers wrote a few years ago about this network. it wrote, tourist who's sleep in some of cuba's hotel drives rental cars, fill up the gas tanks and even those riding in tachies have something in common. they're contributed to the armed forces bottom line f you travel

to cuba, if you stay in a cuban hotel, all likelihood you're staying in a hotel run by the cuban military. if you rent a car, you're renting it from the cuban military. if you fill up your gas tank, you're filling up from the cuban military. and i would add that if you stay at a hotel, you're staying in all likelihood in a confiscated property. a land that was taken from a previous private owner who was never compensated for it. so when you travel to cuba and stay in a hotel not only you are putting money in the hands of the cuban government, you're trafficking in stolen goods. it az property that belonged to a private holder, some american citizens who were never compensated for it. so when we talk about increased travel to cuba and more commerce with cuba what we're really talking about is ib creased business ties with the cuban military for the most part. is that not an accurate assessment at this time? >> it is certainly accurate that the cuban state including the military runs many of those -- a large percentage of the hotels and other infrastructure.

we also now have an increasing number of people's individual homes which are being used as hotels or b & b's and working on that. and private entrepreneurs moving into spaces to support the purposeful travel. >> then why wouldn't we limit our travel to say if you travel to cube yashgs can you only stay at one of these hotels or one of these other nongovernmental, nonmilitary owned facilities? why wouldn't we say can you travel to cube yashgs but can you not stay in a property that was stolen and can you not stay in a property owned or operated by the cuban government which includes even the foreign flagged hotels because they have majority ownership there as well. >> senator, our strong belief is though we are aware that there will be some financial benefit to the cuban government by the larger number of americans going to cuba, the benefit of those larger kmubz which could not be supported only by individual

homes, for example, the benefit to the cuban people of this larger number of americans going far outweighs the increased economic benefit that may accrue to the cuban government. >> just so i understand clearly, and bottom line is you agree. if you travel to cuba you're staying in all likelihood in a stolen property that is in all likelihood run by the cuban government. but that said, the fact there is americans present outweighs the benefit of having americans being able to travel and interact with cuba outwaegs the economic benefits that are going directly to the cuban military. >> i would say that it's possible those properties are confiscated. it's certainly the case that many of the properties are state owned. but we do believe that the benefit outweighs -- >> which property -- other than the private homes you talked about which are largely state owned as well at least an individual is running it. other than the private homes

which is still a very small sector of the economy which cuban hotel is not oenld or operated? which cuban hotel is not owned by the cuban government? >> i assume that most of them are state run especially because the joint ventures even jent ventures are majority. >> they're all state run. >> is there a private oenld hotel in cuba? >> i don't know, sir. i assume there are none. but as i say, there are the bed and breakfasts and individual homes. but again i it this premise on which we're basing this is that the benefits of engageme in. t, purposeful travel are very, very great to the cuban people. and seen overwhelmingly by the cuban people as of benefit to them as surveys show. >> i want to talk about the internet for a moment. cubans, as you said, blamed the u.s. for lack of access to the internet and so forth. it's been couched as a lack of capacity. in fact, cubans say our own president said that he said unfortunately sanctions on cuba denied them access to technology that empowered individuals

aren't world." but i think you know that's not true. for example, there is no japanese embargo on cuba. there is no south korean embargo on cuba. and, yet, those technologies are not widely available either. is it not true that at the end of the day access to internet in cuba is not simply a function of capacity because there are multiple other countries aren't world that do not have an embargo on cuba that can provide cell or internet technology. is it not true the access to the internet and technology in cuba is a result of cuban government censorship? >> i think the denial of access has been both one of policy and one of in terms of american -- access to american products also one of policyst united states. we're taking one of those two things away. they are now able to have access to u.s. products which we always believe are the best in the world. and that leaves only policy.

>> i understand. but there are still other countries -- i have a samsung. why isn't cuba selling samsungs. why do all these other countries not been allowed to come in and offer wi-fi? in essence, it's not a capacity issue. the reason why people in cuba don't have access to the internet is because the cuban government won't allow it. >> well, there is a question of infrastructure that needs to be present to utilize the -- >> but other countries could have provided that. >> they could have. so policy is clear a a big part of this. and we don't know whether that policy will change. they have said they want to modernize their telecommunications sector. >> so why didn't they do it with japanese? core evens? germans? any other country around the world that has internet and technology capabilities outside of the u.s. capabilities? >> i'm hoping they want our stuff. >>, no i understand that. >> and we'll be able to compete

well. but we also see on the island many samsung phones many other cell phone technology of the latest make but it's not connected to anything yet. >> it's connected to cuban government, internet telecommunications. >> and that will be the question. can they open to something that allows their economic development to be enter the modern world and connect cubans to the world? >> senator boxer? >> mr. chairman thank you. senator as the ranking member on the latin america subcommittee, senator rubio is my chairman i really appreciate the full committee looking at this. i do want to pick up on what senator rubio said but in a different way. you know when you listen to my colleague, you think this was the only country in the world that we have relations with and we're starting to have relations with where the state owns hotels. a lot of my colleagues, maybe

all my colleagues on the republican side, i can't be sure but i think they voted to go ahead with the free trade agreement that includes vietnam. an out and out communist country, that pays a minimum wage of pays a minimum wage of 70 cents and owns all of hotels yet we still have relations. the reasons we have relations are geopolitical reasons. we want to work to change these places. so i think my colleague, with his line of questioning, has really proven the point, because russia, a lot of russian hotels are owned by the country china are we going to start telling people what hotels to stay in in china and russia and vietnam and cuba? come on. we don't do that. we're not an authoritarian country. you know if people chose to stay in air b and b in cuba, that would make me happy. that's a san francisco-based company. i wanted to mention that i'm

very proud, they're one of the first u.s. businesses to take advantage of new economic opportunities in cuba. that my colleague, some who sit on the committee, would take away. and in march a new jersey-based telecommunications company announced an agreement to provide direct international long-distance telephone service between the u.s. and cuba. so relatives could talk to each other. these companies have an opportunity to make an incredible difference in the lives of everyday cubans by connecting them to outside world. now, there's plenty of problems and challenges that we face. there's no question about that. and i was going to ask you, ambassador if -- or assistant secretary jacobson -- what had been the greatest area of progress with talk with cuba? what can we expect from the upcoming round of talks?

if you can be brief and concise? >> i will. i think the greatest progress so far is just the acceptance by both sides that we do want diplomatic relations, that we want embassies and our understanding that we will be able to operate in cuba in a way that allows us engage with more cuban citizens. that is incredibly important and we see that as really critical to this engagement process. i think in terms of what we will talk about tomorrow it's really getting rest of the agreement for an embassy that operates similar to the way we operate in other -- in some other countries. >> thank you. assistant secretary, you testified in a subcommittee hearing, senator rubio and i held in february, about the impact of the president's new policy on human rights and

democracy in cuba. and i asked you about the impact of the president's new cuba policy on u.s. relations with other countries in the region and the world. and you answered then that the reaction was immediate and extremely positive. those are your words. i was very pleased about than now we also discussed, then, the importance of engaging regional partners on issues related to human rights. has the administration been able to leverage regional and international support for its new cuba policy to increase pressure on the castro regime for blatant violations of basic freedoms of its citizens? has there been any success so far in engaging our partners on those issues? >> well, thank you senator. i do think that we've had conversations, certainly, with many of our hemispheric partners that have been more productive than they have been in the past. i would second what senator

cardin said about the fact that in panama the president was able to are a round table on civil society with the president vazquez of ur ra guy that included two dissidents as well as 12 or 15 others from the hemisphere that is something very unusual. they would not necessarily have sat with the u.s. president to do that before this policy change. and the cuban dissidents who were there were able to connect with colleagues around the hemisphere, which wasn't possible in the past. i also think that the reaction of the panamanian government to things that happened in panama including government-sponsored, nongovernmental organizations preventing the full exercise of freedom of speech in the civil society forum was very forceful on how to democracies operate, and that, too, was a change from

what we've seen sometimes in the past. >> i think the fact that our regional partners got to actually meet human rights advocates is very important because a lot of times, you know, see no evil, that's it. but having spent time with them, i think is critical. so that's a very good report. now, cuban president raul castro has said he will step down in 2018. this means for the first time since 1959 cuba will not be led by one of the castro brothers. reports indicate that president castro's grooming his first vice president to succeed him. can you talk about the importance of this transition of power in cuba and shed a little light on this first vice president? >> i'm not sure i can shed that much light in this area. what i can say is i do think that a transition that is taking

place is not just one of you know, a normal or even cuban election that is taking place in 2018, it's a generational change. and the exit of either of the castro brothers is very very significant there are changes in the way that elections are going to be done in cuba still not what we would like to see in a free multiparty election. but i do think it's going to be significant. obviously, the vice president is the next generation of leaders. we have not met with him. i are not met with him but i know many of you have who have gone to cuba, many of the co-dell have. there may be more knowledge in the congress than we have. >> i will close with this, i think this 2018 election is a real test for us in a way.

if we can focus on democracy and freedom and fairness it's a very specific thing we can work on, and i'm going to work on that myself. in close may i put my opening statement in the record? >> without zblokz thank you. >> absolutely. senator johnson? >> mr. chairman, secretary jacobson, i want to kind of talk about the legal authority that president obama's using to take his actions. 1996, in reaction to the cuban downing of two civilian aircraft, congress passed the cuban liberty and democratic solidarity act of 1996 libertat act. the primary purpose number one, assist the cuban people and redpan theirregain freedom and prosperity as well as enjoying communities in the hemispheric region. third one, provide for the continued national security of the united states in the face of continuing threats from the castro government of terrorism

and theft of property of united states nationals. that was the purpose. it was noteworthy about the act is, it codified all restricts under the cuban system control regulations that were enacted or promulgated by the treasury department in 1963. it codified the cuban embargo. what's nose worthy this had long lasting effect on u.s. policy options of cuba because the executive branch is spreened from lifting the economic embargo without congressional concurrence until certain democratic conditions set forth in law are met. let me talk about specifically what those conditions are. in section 203, it says that upon making determination under subsection c-3 a democratic elected government in cuba is in

power. the president shall, upon determining that a democratic elected government of cuba is in power, submit the determination to the appropriate congressional committees. es let me first ask has the president made a determination that a democratically elected government in cuba is now in power? >> the president has not taken actions under those aspects of the libertat act. he has not invoked that part or any of the act to take the actions he's taken. >> he simply done feel like he has to refer to the libertat act? what his he doing if he's not lifting the embargo? what is this? >> i think -- >> how is he skirting it? >> i think the president's made very clear that the congress is the only body that can lift the embargo, and as he said in his state of the union message he called on congress to do so. therefore, he's made clear that he does not have the authority to lift the embargo.

>> what's he doing? it seems like a lifting of embargo to me. >> what he's taken are executive actions and regulatory changes within the executives' purview, with the embargo still in place. as you know there were, for years, exceptions and continue to be exceptions to the embargo in agriculture. his change is make their exceptions on telecommunications and to support the private sector in cuba. those are the kinds of exceptions to the embargo that are within the executive branch's purview. >> okay. do you basically agree with the primary purpose of that act, which i read earlier, basically to ensure the freedom and prosperity of the cuban people and certainly enhance the national security of america? do you think that's the two primary policy goals of this country toward cuba? >> certainly the president's made clear that what we want is a democratic prosperous and stable cuba, which i think is

similar to what's in that act. question of our own national security should always be paramount in our decision making. >> ambassador shannon, i was struck by your comments about your attitude that democracy and freedom is flourishing in central america. certainly we have good examples colombia, because of courageous leadership. i'm not seeing a lot of democracy flourishing in venezuela or cuba, from that standpoint. can you help me out in terms of what you're talking about? >> there's no doubt that democracy's not flourishing in cuba. and it's part of the president's effort to pursue a new approach to see what more we can do to help the cuban people begin their own political opening. as we look back over the last several decades, what's important to remember and acknowledge about our hemisphere is this was a region that was largely ruled by authoritarian government, some military, some not, but which has found through its commitment to human rights

and its ability to organize and use inter-american solutions like the inter-american human rights court and the inter-american court of human rights to develop civil societies around human rights issues and use that to build democracy. whether it's chile in the 1980s, our work in central america to face down insurgencies and move military governments to allow elections to take place for civilians to take over whether it's what we've done in colombia, whether transition to government in argentina, brazil i think this hemisphere has distinguished itself over the past three decades -- >> i'm running out of time here. seeing as the primary purpose to continue the national security of america is it -- is anybody going to make the case the castro regime has been helpful in promoting this in the hemisphere?

are they supporting farc in colombia supporting the repressive regime in venezuela? isn't that true secretary jacobson? >> what the cuban government has done and what we asserted in the report we sent to congress is the support for the farc that we have seen recently is support for the peace process that's going on in cuba between the farc and the colombian government. obviously that was not always the case in the past but this time we think they're playing a constructive role in the peace process. in venezuela, it's a different issue. i think in many areas we -- we do not see cuba in national security terms we believe the engagement with cuba through diplomatic relations will be far better for our interests than the previous policy of isolation. >> the other purpose to assist the cuban people and regain freedom and prosperity, as senator rubio's pointing out u.s. is basically the only

country engaged in embargo. cuba's been able to trade freely with the rest of the world. i'm not seeing the flourishing of prosperity as a result of that engagement? i mean how in the world do we think being able to trade with with is going to improve their prosperity under the repressive regime of the castros? >> you're certainly right their economic system has not made them a magnet for the trade and investment of other countries that they're able to have. in other words, other countries could have invested and been trading with them more than they are. but cuba has to change to make that possible. but they have been able to promote a narrative of the u.s.' embargo and isolation from them as the reason for those economic problems. we have take than excuse away. it will be obvious that the problems are the lack of movement in their system. >> thank you madam secretary vice chair. >> senator menendez? >> today is the 113th

anniversary of cuban independence day. it is a bitter-sweet date given the cuban people's languishing for 55 years under dictatorship. let me be frank i have deep concerns that the more these talks progress, the more the administration continues to entertain unilateral concessions without in return getting agreement on fundamental issues that are in our national interests and those are the cuban people. so i know you said in response to another question, these are things we did not negotiate, these are things decided unilaterally. i can't believe that. the cubans said, you want a relationship? you've got to return the three convicted spies three convicted spies of the united states including one who was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder,

of three u.s. citizens in international airspace. check, we gave them the three spies. you want a relationship? take us off the list of state sponsor of terror. . check, we gave them that. you want a relationship? stop or change the democracy programs that we do throughout the world because we don't like those democracy programs because they're interfere to our totalitarian regime. i wake up to an article from reuters, u.s. signals it could change pro-democracy programs in cuba that havana objects to cuba has long octobered to prot-democracy program which includes basic courses for my friends sitting in the press in basic journalism and information technology to the u.s. diplomatic mission in havana. check. bring us to the summit of the americas. even though cuba violates the democratic charter of the oas and one of your people say doesn't matter who's invited to the table, it what's talked

about. guess what? the democratic charter, the message counselor shannon sent to the hemispheres, you can violate the democratic charter and still be part of the club. why not violate it if you think you're compelled to do so? pretty amazing. i have not seen any movement at all towards greater freedom. as a matter of fact, i would like to commend committee's attention to someone inside of cuba, awe cuba blogger, peres in "the daily beast." cuba's 12 most absurd prohibitions tourists will never see. cubans can't access internet from their homes or on cell phone. not because, in fact, even technology infrastructure is not the case. they can't access because the government won't let them because information is a problem. so, yeah they want to perfect greater infrastructure but for them to control it. you can't live in havana without a permit.

the blogger goes on to say can someone from l.a. live in washington, d.c.? the answer is obviously yes. but you can't live in havana without a permit from the government. no public demonstrations allowed. imagine that. no political parties are allowed except the cuban communist party. no investment in media and large enter pries no inviting a foreigner to spend a night without a permit in your own home. among many others, you can't bring 25 fingernails. i ask it be included. >> without objection. >> human rights continue un unabated with more than 1600 cases of arbitrary arrest. this year alone, five months into the year. so, president obama may have outstretched his hand but the

castros still have their fists real tight. you and secretary mole lynn now ski came before the committee herald it there which downturn. we're skyrocketing back up in human rights wryviolations and including the reassist of the people who you negotiated to ultimately be released, several of them rearrested. now, despite the desire to move into different direction i see we get nothing in return weep still have -- you have taken cuba off the terrorism list. well, joann on the ten most wanted terrorist list, charles hill wanted for killing a new mexico state trooper and hijacking a u.s. civilian plane, both living in cuba, protected bit regime. the regime says we'll talk to you, we'll talk to you. even though your counterpart already said she got political asylum and she's not going

anywhere, because we'll talk to you about it. we'll talk to you about it. talk add infinitum. i hope my colleagues who are so passionate, and i listened to them about democracy and human rights in many parts of the world, but almost silent when it comes to cuba. somehow democracy and human rights is not as important as other places in the world. let me ask you madam secretary to your knowledge were you or any member of the state department told not to push for sanctions on cuba in violation of sending migs and missiles to north korea in violation of the u.n. security council resolutions? the type of missiles that in fact were in hull of a cargo ship full of sugar being hidden where the migs of cuba were taken off to try to hide it?

were you told not to push? was any member told not to push for sanctions at snurn. >> not that i know of. >> did the u.n. sanction cuba? >> they did not. >> they did not. let me ask you this, in the list of state-sponsor terrorism you got a letter that says that, in fact, cuba has not, never did oddly the castro regime's assurances asserted the government of cuba has never -- this is in their letter -- has never supported any active international terror ump and the cuban territory has never been used to organize finance or execute terrorist acts against any country including the united states. do you intent for members of the committee to believe that the castro regime never supported any acts of international terrorism over the last half century? senator, i think what's crucial -- >> not what's crucial. >> sorry. >> do you believe, do you want the committee to believe the

cube be government has never sponsored any act of terrorism over the last half century? >> i -- i can't say that i would urge you all to believe that it has never occurred no. but -- >> i hope you don't mean to suggest that the historical examples of providing support to former armed insurgents in the 1980s including the n-19 in colombia, the fsl in nicaragua, or that the fact that cuban military didn't shoot unarmed civilian planes carrying american citizen over international waters for which they are pending indictments from a united states jurisdiction against several individuals in cuba i'm wondering are you pursuing that in your negotiations with cuba about them answering those indictments? >> that is why we're going to have the law enforcement conversation for the justice department to be able to pursue -- >> do you realize some of those dimes are against? >> yes, sir.

>> and do you think you're going to engage in a conversation with them responding to justice? do you think the castros are going to say, yes, we're going to appear in a court? i don't think so. let me ask you one last question, if i have the chair's indulgence. you know you all came here and said that oh there's a reduction of political arrests in january. as a sign that the administration's cuba policy was achieving results. not surprisingly these numbers climbed dramatically in the ensuing months with more than 450 political arrests in february, more than 600 in march, more than 1600 political arrests in total during the first four months of 2015. 1,600 in the first four months of 2015. now, as i'm sure you know this past sunday, more than 100 activists in cuba were violently arrested including 60 members,

follow their attendance at a church service. so i guess she was right when she said the cuban government will only take advantage to strengthen its repressive machinery. all these women were doing was marching in white with a gladiola to church. and result of that is to be beaten and thrown into prison. that is not success. i don't get it. the final thing i'll say, mr. chairman, i have a lot of other questions but in deference to my colleagues and i appreciate it this is a one-sided -- i don't know what we've gotten in return. we've gotten nothing in return but the cubans have gotten plenty in return. if that's our way of negotiating, then we have a real problem on our hands. and the message we send in the western hemisphere in venezuela, where we have -- i don't see ur partners engaging with us because we change our cuba policy, this opens door

towards promotion democracy. we're not seeing democracy in venezuela. i'm not sure about it happening in other places in the hemisphere for which we have challenges as well. so i think that that is a hollow promise based on what we see. i appreciate the chair's courtesy based on my interest in the subject. >> thank you. senator purdue? >> thank you mr. chairman. thank you both for being here today. this is an important topic. in my canreer i've watched and seen the u.s. strategy of engagement china, vietnam, dominican republic haiti, to mention a few. it's worked in some, it's not in others. i echo what senator menendez just said about venezuela, we buy $32 billion of oil a year. we haven't affected their regime one iota, that i can see. i have three concerns about what we're talking about today with regard to our changing our relationship with cuba. one is their continued support of terrorism. two is their human rights record

that continue today. and, three, their activity in armed smuggling. we'll get to those in a second i'm have a very short question i hope you'll be brief. 2003, cuba allowed iran to operate on their soil, we know about the attack on u.s. telecommunications. cuba's reported to have supplied intelligence services to venezuela recently in its allies. cuba provided assistance in safe haven to terrorists including members of farc and the bask eta. they continue to harbor fuj tissues including one listed on the fbi's most dangerous terrorists. helping member of hezbollah slip into north america. a state-owned enterprise provided venezuela with advanced technology to provide illicit documentation to 173 individuals from the middle east between '08 and '12. that's ancient history according to the administration. talk about recent history. just sense president obama

started the secret negotiations with the castro regime june 2013, a report of 15,000 political arrests 2500 such arrests since the president's speech on u.s.-cuban relations in december. to make it even worse between february and march of this year alone cuba increased the until of politically motivated arrest by 70%. as troubling as that is, i'm more troubled by cuba's continued nefarious activities with regard to arm smuggling. we know about the shipment of 240 tons of military equipment confiscated on the way to north korea but we are talking about february 28th of this year, 2015 chinese flag vessel was intercepted, over 100 tons of explosives, 2.6 million detonator, over 3,000 artillery shells bought by a -- bought from a chinese arms

manufacturer, on behalf of technoimport a shadow company interest the cuban military. the question is, with this type of activity what assurances can you give us mr. ambassador, i'd like you it take a shot at this first. with this continuing and current activity, why should we be optimistic that just by opening up economic relations with these people this regime, that this type of activity will change? >> thank you very much, senator. i can assure you that just by opening up economic activity we will not necessarily change behavior. it's a longer process in this. but in regard to the larger diplomatic environment and assistant secretary jacobson can address more specific issues, in regard to a larger diplomatic environment, the fact that these ships were stopped was significant. the fact they were inspected was significant. the fact that these items were found was significant and shows an ability to cooperate with our

partners in the region to control and monitor this kind of activity. and this will deepen with time as people under stand that the broader purpose of our diplomacy is not simply to normalize relations with cuba and build a relationship with cuba that will change now we try to promote our interests in democratic values but that it's also about how we enhance the integration and cooperation inside the hemisphere and partners of our leery of working with us around cuba issue because they do not want to get caught into the vortex of the powerful and historic animosity are going to be more open to engaging with us on this kind of activity. so i believe we're going to be able to do more in the area of security, we're going to be able to do more in the area of nonproliferation, more in the area of fighting drug because of this. >> i ask a follow-up on that

mr. ambassador. why wouldn't we make that a prerequisite that better behavior would lead to open economic relations? or madam second, either one. >> i think north, ifsenator, if i could, we all want the same end. it a question of how we motivate that behavior or how we -- how effectively we can help support change. the president believes firmly that the efforts we made in the past, which were in fact to say you must change first and then we will engage, just didn't work to make the changes inside cuba. >> can i ask you a question on that? >> certainly. >> we have evidence, cause and effect of several other countries, britain, canada others having open trading relations with cuba. we're the only one embargoing and yet that engagement has not changed behavior. what makes us believe that today our opening up of economic

relations with cuba will have that effect? >> i mean i think that's a fair point. we don't know yet what the effect of this policy will be on the cuban government. we do see already the effect, the beginning of the effect on the cuban people while we decry the detentions of the activists we know there are cubans benefiting from this new policy in their independent businesses and in their belief that they're going to prosper and have a better life because of engagement with the u.s. the other thing i would say is, i'm very engaged with my eu counterpart and with my counterpart in spain in working with them so that we can now work together, and when we work together, not just with our regional counterparts but with our european counterparts, that is more powerful. i think that could have a more galvanizing effect but it will be slow, i don't deny that. >> thank you.

thank you, mr. chairman. >> senator kane? >> thank you mr. chairman. thank you to the witnesses. my colleagues have asked great questions about particular of the u.s.-cuba discussion. i want to talk about the region. american and the caribbean 35 nations by the general count, nearly 1 billion people. i do my kind of back of the envelope math, 35 nations means 600 bilateral relationships between the nations in the region. some of the bilateral relationships are strong and friendly, some are weak, warm, keeld, change over time. any other bilateral relationship in the americas that does not include normal diplomatic relationships other than the united states and cuba? i'm not aware of one. but you guys are the experts. >> no sir. >> this is the only one of the 600 bilateral relationships in the americas that does not involve a normal diplomatic relationship. let me ask you this, i'm not

aware of any war between nations in the americas, our two continent between nations, am i right about that? >> you are correct. >> the only civil war, there are security challenges, obviously of many kinds because we're 35 nations and a billion people but the only civil war right now in the region is the war between the colombia government and farc and another smaller terrorist organization that is currently subject to a negotiation that cuba is hosting where the u.s. is playing a role accompanying the colombian government, correct? >> right. that's correct. and we're not accompanying but have this special envoy now. it's also the longest running civil conflict in the hemisphere. >> i don't want to get ahead of myself, but if that negotiation works out positively, and we are then -- we have the ability to be too two continents, all americans, without war without

civil war, without war between nations that would be pretty unusual in the history of these two continents, wouldn't it? >> it would be an historic achievement. >> it would be pretty unusual given other continents, wars or civil wars in asia, wars or civil wars in africa sadly, wars or civil wars in europe. you talked in your opening testimony about then creasing trade in the americas majority of the american trade agreements with nations in the americas there's more trade between the nations in the americas. there has been a move in the last 30 years from governments that have been autocratic or military towards democracy, not that there aren't challenges, problem children we're human beings, after all, there are going to be challenges. you each have spent your entire professional careers working in the western hemisphere is what you've devoted your professional lives to. tell us what it means to the

united states of america to potentially be the anchor and the leading nation in two continents with no war no civil war, complete diplomatic relations and ever increasing trade in interdependence. talk about what that means to the united states of america. >> senator, i think those are incredibly important points. and for me one of the things that i see in this hemisphere is not only the hemisphere's importance to the united states and to our people daily, whether trade, familiar ties, greing growing influence in culture we share and the way in the values in this hemisphere are the same as our but i also see this as a model with so many flaws that still have to be overcome and challenged that we all face and

inequalities of, you know, systems and democracies even where they exist. but remember that in the transition from military to civilian government, truth commissions, and the process of that was first done in this hemisphere with argentina a model that south africa looked at and eastern european countries looked at and others have looked ain the the arab world now. remembering also that the terrible adjustment of the '90s on macro economic issues were things that this hemisphere went through first. now with the free trade agreements the broadening of those economic changes to be greater social inclusion and ensure that everybody's included in those benefits is taking route here first. i think it isn't just what we do for ourselves, it's what we are then able to do elsewhere

including working with these partners increasingly capable on global issues that matter to us from climate change to the middle east to peacekeeping where ur ra guy per capita is the largest contributor of peacekeepers in the world. it not just a phenomenon we will be proud of here but one that is projecting outside. >> if i could add briefly as we look out on to the globe and see some very demanding and some frightening security challenges to have a strategy ex-enclave in our own hemisphere, where we are fight nothing wars, face nothing significant insurgencies or terrorist groups and 0 are able to have commerce, both in manufacturing in services but also in political dialogue is a remarkable thing and a remarkable accomplishment. to have examples of societies that have moved from authoritarian government to democracy, have moved from

closed economies to open economies, as i've noted, is a confidence builder for other countries around the world who are facing similar challenges because our hemisphere has shown that the democracy is not a status quo power structure. it's not about preserving privilege, it's addressing profound social problems and doing so in a peaceful way, in a transformative way. so i think we have a remarkable platform in the western hemisphere from which to engage the rest of the world. as assistant secretary noted, and as i noted in my testimony, this is a region that's moving from global isolation to global engagement. one of most interesting stories of the first half of the 20 2 1st century is not inter-american relation it's now mercury lates with the rest of the world. we have four of the free trading partners part of the trans-pacific partnership looking for ways to transform their own economies by reaching

across the pacific into asia doing so as democrat countries that support open markets support free trade and support the international institutions that regulate trade is a dramatic accomplishment. and we'll have an impact on the larger economies in south america that have yet to sign up for these larger agreements. we are at a moment of strategic momentum. and if we are able to show that this hemisphere can function hemispherically around establishing priorities and building approaches to those priorities, and if we can show that through our dialogue we can present a consolidated face to the rest of the world, we will have done something remarkable. >> i thank the witnesses for their testimony. thank you, mr. chair. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank the chairman and ranking minority member for scheduling this hearing. this has been very informative and obviously an area where there's much interest here.

i want to thank the witnesses and i want to thank them particularly for explaining that this new policy is not a reward for good behavior on behalf of the cuban government. obviously, there are concerns, huge concerns in terms of human rights that need to be addressed. but i appreciate clear-eyed vision of that, that the administration holds. about you can explain miss jacobson, is it easier to have those discussions with regard to human rights or perhaps negotiating with fugitives for american justice if we have dlipic relations or a better relationship and better contact this situation as it has been? >> it's only possible really with policy of engagement, those were things we couldn't do before. >> all right. thank you. that's -- that's important, i think important if this

discussion. we on think, well you know is this a guarantee now, this greater engagement that any improvements will be in the offing. that assumes that we're -- we have a good policy now that is yielding benefits. we haven't. we haven't for about 50 years now. and and now at least there's a possibility that we might be able to make some improvements and see increased freedom for the cuban people. so i applaud the administration for taking this position and for pursuing this. let's turn to travel for a minute. it was said before that when people traveled some do stay in the hotels owned by the government and therefore revenue will flow to government. there's no doubt that will happen. but it's significant, as was mentioned by senator boxer that companies like airbnb have gone into cuba now a company that has a website that books travel

mostly bed and breakfast for people in their private homes. i was looking at it while we were here, if you just scroll down they have now i understand more than 2,000 listings in cuba. a bit of perspective it took them months -- sorry, years in some of their other markets like san francisco to get up to 1,000 listings. you've got 2,000 listings. i think this is just, i think a thousand over just about 50 days. so it's very significant. and for the most part, or virtually all of these listings are people in their homes, people who will benefit from visits by americans and others and there's less of a chance that money mr. will flow flew the government. increased travel will go to the cuban government but what cost

to the cuban government? i always felt if we lift some restriction the cuban government may seek to impose some of their own, because on obviously they want revenue but fear -- they fear what else the freedom that might come with the increased travel. but i've often also said if somebody's going to limit my travel it should be a communist that's what they do. not our own government here. that's not our purview. that's not our prerogative to limit the travel of americans. so with regard to cuban-american travel i think it's sing the president lifted some restrictions a few years ago. miss jacobson, can you tell, or ambassador shannon what has happened in that regard in terms of increased travel over the last couple of years with the policy changing with regard to cuban-american travel? >> thank you, senator, very much. i think that it's clear that in

the regulatory changes that the administration has made over the last few years to increase the ability for families to see each other, for cuban-americans to go to cuba, as well as the changes most recently in december, there have been many more cuban-americans traveling, there have been certainly it's been critical to us i think to ensure that remittance amounts go up and they did dramatically in the most recent regulatory changes because in many ways, they have been the capital that has founded some of the most important private sector emergence. almost certainly continue to do so including some of these private homes that are serving as on airbnb. people who want to run their own businesses who are allowed to in areas that the cuban government will permit but don't have the resources to do so and can be

helped by folks in the united states. >> well, thank you. one who traveled frequently to cuba observe the past 15 years, i can tell you for several years there, it was tough to see any change or progress because the cuban government, it it seemed they would loosen controls when they needed to and tighten them again. but traveling there over past couple of years has been a significant difference. and i think it's because of the increased travel particularly by cuban-americans that you see the type of entrepreneurship that has been allowed but will likely continue now, much tougher to turn and reverse, that certainly is the feeling that those of us who traveled down more recently have gotten and i think that will only increase with increased american travel. there are, like i said before, no guarantees that anything will happen but change is more likely to occur with increased contact

from the urs. let me touch on diplomatic relations and the appointment of an ambassador to cuba. how will that help with regard to those who do business legally, american whose do business legally in cuba under the new reg and and increased number of americans who travel what benefits will they have if we have full diplomatic relations that they don't have now? >> obviously our intersection in cuba already provides some services in beth of those areas. but i would say that having a u.s. ambassador having full diplomatic relations is always much better in terms of being able to engage with governments at a highest level the representative of the united states -- of the president, and being able to advocate for those businesses, u.s. businesses, that can operate legally being able to advocate for them against competitors being able to support americans while they're there it also critical to us that we have sufficient

staff to be able to support the influx of people and americans who are going to cuba so we can provide those services. we and only do that with full diplomatic relations. >> thank you. in close i want to thank rank minority member for mentioning freedom to travel act that has sponsorship of the majority of the committee 10 of 19. we look forward to pushing that forward. >> thanks for your interest in this issue. senator udall? >> thank you mr. chairman. really appreciate you holding this hearing and doing it, you and senator cardin in such a balanced way, very much appreciate that. i'm honored senator flake to be on your freedom to travel bill. i think one of the things that is so important is opening cuba up to travel and there couldn't be better ambassadors than our citizens going down to cuba and visiting what we're all about in

terms of democracy and human rights and those very very important values. and i about at the beginning, want to say i very inch support this policy of normalization. i think we're turning the page on a failed policy that's been going on since the early 1960s, we're moving to empowering the cuban people empowering cuban entrepreneurs, and i really welcome this new chapter of normalized relations. it was mentioned earlier about -- you were asked several questions, really appreciate you both being here and all of your hard work observe the years in this area -- about the private sector. and i have looked for reports on what's happening down there. i think it's fascinating in terms of the growth dramatic growth in the private sector, 2013 brooking report -- there are probably more because that's

an old report -- looking at close to 1 million classified as private sector. you have 500,000 legally registered to self-employed and you have another 570,000 farmers who own or lease private plots working solo or in cooperatives. and as i think is mentioned in your testimony, there's an organic sector also working there, organic farming and organic marketing. in addition to that, there's another estimated from this report, 600,000 to 1 million labeled private sector but they are considered illegal by the cuban government. so there's also a sector there that's growing. so you have these two large sectors which could be in the range of 2 million. i think that's what when we travel down there when we engage down there when our

commerce is -- these are the folks that we're helping. these are the folks that we're helping grow. these are the folks that we're empowering, and i think that's a very very good thing. now, this -- one of the areas that i think is critically important -- and is increasing our agriculture interaction with cuba -- so i am also proud to be on senator -- in addition to senator flake, senator hide camp has a bill to increase sales i'm on that. and this week i'm introducing the cuba digital and communications advancement act also known as the cuba data act, with senator flake, senator durbin. the goal of the legislation is very simple. give u.s. telecommunications companies the opening and certainty they need to inrest and hope cuba open to the world and and give the cubans the into

tools they need to engage in a 21st century economy. share information and communicate more efficiently with each other and the world. secretary jacobson, both you and the president emphasized access to internet is a cornerstone to the new cuba policy. it's one of the least wired countries in the western hemisphere. things we take for granted, such as e-mail on phone, basically nonexistent in cuba. what are the major challenges cubans are facing to access the internet and what can u.s. companies and the congress do to open up cuba to the global internet? >> thank you senator. thanks so much for your interest in this and the conversations we've had. i think obviously a huge part of the obstacles to the cuban people right now are sheer access to internet connected

devices, whether it's computers or whether it's, you know smartphones. when they are access that access is expensive, it's also prohibitive prohibitive, even when the cost came down for the public to access internet it was still extremely expensive. for most cubans it was a half month's wage. then there's a question of whether everything is act sell ibl once you get on the web and whether there are things that are blocked. so there are luge challengehuge challenges for the average cuban. i think there is a combination of reasons for that, but the cuban government fundamentally has to make decisions and we obviously want to encourage in every way possible that information and access to the internet be made easier, cheaper, you know, available, and open for the cuban people.

that will take a variety of decisions by the government that we're encouraging them to take by encouraging american businesses to have those conversations with them and these are the means to do so. >> the goal, as i think you said in your testimony madam secretary, of the cuban government is to have internet access for 50% of its population by 2020. so they have stated this goal we're trying to move there. this is the goal that u.n. has made for developing countries around the world. is this goal achievable by cuba? if the united states telecom companies were allowed to invest in cuba, how long would it take to completely wire the island? >> that's a great question, senator. i'm not the best of tech experts but i will tell you that the tech companies that i speak to had conversations either with cuba or about cuba believe it is absolutely possible. and in terms of how long it

would take a lot depends on what the cubans decide to do what kind of infrastructure they put in. >> thank you very much for those answers. mr. chairman, just a final comment, i know that all of the things that have been mentioned here that are problems, that we don't agree with problems as challenges in cuba we just have different goals to try to go those things changed. and as the last note, i'd like to express my support for the extradition of charlie hill. extradition of criminals i think, is an important part of any normal relations between countries, charlie hill who allegedly murdered a new mexico state police officer and hijacked a plane must be brought to jut, and justice and i know the state department shares this objective. i hope we continue to make this a priority until we get it done. thank you mr. chairman. my sense is there may be additional questions, and i'll defer my time for others who may

wish to ask additional questions. senator rubio? >> thank you. a couple points i wanted to touch on. this internet thing is important. i've talked about it extensively in the past. as i listen to the conversation there's a perception the reason why there's no internet infrastructure in cuba is because the u.s. hasn't gone into build. the cuban -- the telecom industry in cuba is run by the kj government a holding held by the holding company run by the son-in-law of raul castro. the bottom line virtually every telecom company in the world -- there are dozens of advance the companies in world not in the territory of the united states -- have had access to the cuban mark and they've not been allowed to build out or dropped out of joint ventures. the fact that american infrastructure will be allowed to come in does not mean the cubans will allow it. here's why they don't want the

cuban people to have access to the internet. china they have the great fire wall. they have access to internet in china. china has both nationally owned and proiftivate companies in china offer telecommunication infrastructure but the people do not have access because the government places filters upon it. this is a government that won't allow you to bring certain books on to the island. a government won't allow you to read certain newspapers on the island. this idea that they are going to somehow allow at&t and verizon to say, yes come in build all of this infrastructure unfetterred access to the cuban people, as absurd. they cannot survive an internet opening. so we can pass all of the laws we want the cuban government is still going to place filters and you still have to work through their telecommunications company in a joint venture in order to build infrastructure on the island. as far as travel is concerned i think airbnb, fantastic, they're

building this up. the point, number one, even private operators on the island bed and breakfast whatever you call them still pay an ex-orb tant fee to the government for the right to provide that service. they gamed that system to get their hands on money. that being said the vast majority of people that travel to cuba will not be staying at one of these facilities. they will be staying at segregated tourist destinations where tourists are brought in, experience that facility, and and then leave. and the money's going to the cuban military. i've heard discussion about vietnam, china. look, we have full travel to china and vietnam, they're not any more democratic than they were when all of this started. so i think it proves my point economic openings do not lead to political openings by evidence of china and vietnam. the point about the cuban military, in addition to the fact that the castro regime stole 6,000 properties owned by u.s. citizens or companies of which zero dollars have been

compensated this is the cuban military that has four four senior officials three senior officials indicted, for the murder of four floridians, indicted in u.s. courts. that's the cuban military. this is the cuban military helping smuggle heavy weapons to north korea without consequence. they were caught no u.n. sanctions, no u.s. sanctions. this is not just the cuban military. this is a cuban military that uses access to funds to carry out the sort of grow tevg acttesque activity. we're not doing business with the cuban people. you may eat at a home somewhere, but this is still a very small part of their economy for the vast and enormous majority of americans that travel there, and that includes congressional codells, journalists, everyday american citizens you will stay in a government-run facility every dollar will wind up in the hands of the cuban military that

soernss sponsors terrorism by smuggling arms to north korea, and cuban military that uses every access it it has to funds to enrich themselves and repress the cuban people. so there is no economic opening to cuba. there is an economic opening to the cuban military-run holding company. >> thank you. senator cardin? >> let me briefly, then i'll yield to senator menendez, in regards to some response here, 2 million cell phone users in cuba. when i was in china they do block full access to the internet although the u.s. embassy site on air quality is one of the most frequently visited sites by china nationals, the only reliable information they can get about air quality. our engagement will bring faster connectivity and more quality

connectivity to the people of cuba, i'm convinced of than the technology is there, senator rubio points out. it's a matter of making it available and the people of cuba will demand that. and let me just also me also point out in regards to the act it provides for licensing authority by the administration which is common in these types of legislation. there are authorities included in the act. i look forward to a robust discussion. chairman, i would yield the time to senator menendez. >> senator martin. >> thank you. mr. chairman very much, welcome and thank you for all of the good work which you have done. over the years there's been a clearly an isolation from our

country that cuba has had to live with. and i very much appreciate this administration's attempts to normalize relations. i think it is important and step in the right direction. and i think the actions which you're taking beginning to make it possible for us to envision a day where we truly have normalized relations with cuba but it's not going to happen overnight and clearly cuba itself has to deal with behavioral changes that are not going to come easy. but that said, i think the process has opened and i think we're going to head in the right direction. i know senator udall has already talked about this and it's important to focus on it the relationship that exists between

information and freedom. i think there is a huge cultural combatibility with cuba, otherwise the red sox would not be signing all this money to sign cuban players. they have mastered that part of our culture. and hopefully we'll be able to be able to broaden that even further. talking about internet and talking about telecommunications, can you just outline a little bit for me -- i may have missed the detail that you gave to senator udall, but what is your hope in the terms of transfer of sale of telecommunications technology into the human marketplace? >> thank so much, senator. the regulatory changes are

fairly -- fairly broad in terms of what can now be sold and provided to cuba in the telecommunications and information area. that could be hardware, whether cell phones or other forms of computers that can now be sort of not just donated as they could be before but sold to cuba. people in cuba, and it also is services that are providing information such as the phone card and phone service that idt recently in new jersey signed with the cuban government to do other forms ever telecommunications work. i do want to be clear, it's true that all of this takes a decision by the cuban government to move forward with modernization in their telecom sector. that is certainly true. american companies can be able to under our changes participate in cuba but the cuban government

has already said it wants to modernize and said things to the u.n. and we have to see if they really take those steps. we want to be part of it if and when they do. we want to encourage them to do so. i think as others have said, we think the cuban people want that as well. >> i think the more that we have american tourists down there, the more that we have a cultural exchanges and students in cuba, the more normalized to that extent is more likely that the cuban people, cuban students are going to be saying to themselves, why can't we have that technology? and it's -- it's a resistance by the way that existed in our own country. our own country did not want to move to the digital revolution. our table and telephone companies did not move to it. there wasn't one home that had digital until we changed the laws. we had to incentivize those

companies. we were going nowhere. same thing with cell phones cost 50 cents a minute and we didn't have one, ordinary people, some wealthy businessman gordon gecko had in wall street had one but not ordinary people. in 2001 in africa, only 12 million people -- 12 million people had wireless devices. today it's 800 million. we move to these devices rapidly in america but they are doing in africa as well. the more it insinuates itself into individual countries it changes the culture and business relationship it's not uniform. no question about it but you can see it where it works. it works big time. i think the same thing is going to be true in cuba.

the more we can move these devices in and the more the people in the country demand they have access to it so they are not the last country in the world without access to modern technologies. i think we're going to see dramatic telescoping of the changes that we're hoping that will happen in that country. and so that's why of all of the sectors, that's why radio and tv were always focused on by the reagan administration. they understood the importance of this. and the hoping which you're talking about here, kind of puts it in the mind of many cuban ordinary citizens why not, why not us? so what is the level of negotiation or discussion that is going on in terms of these telecommunications technologies? who are we speaking to? who ultimately makes the decision inside cuba? >> all right, thank you,

senator. we had -- there's basically two tracks if you will, one is government. that is beginning of conversations with the cuban government about telecommunications and the other obviously are many many private sector conversations with the cuban government to which we're not party but we obviously know about that they are taking place. on the government side, we had our ambassador for international communications policy danny sepulveda two months ago now, that is the first time we had that conversation with the cuban government at an official level meeting both with their telecommunications ministry as well as their telecom provider which is state run to talk about sort of what kind of infrastructure they are interested in and how we have done things in the united states in terms of the regulation and access issues as well as obviously many many u.s.

companies have had conversations with the cuban government and they are beginning to think about the request for proposals if you will of their own telecom sector. >> the quicker we can move them in that direction the quicker their whole society changes and it's happened all over the world, they will not be immune to you. thank you both for your great work. >> without objection i would like to enter into the record on behalf of senator rubio a letter to him dated february 18th. from the u.s. coast guard and if there's no objection i'll put it in the record. >> thank you, mr. chairman. just wanted to clarify a few issues, we talk about telecommunications, saying the cuban government may not allow this and it's up to them and we may not control them that's true, they will allow what they will allow. but we've had a policy for decades that has not yield the

results we want the question it's this policy compared to nonengagement that we had before and we know what nonengagement has yielded. the cuban government may or may not keep their promise to make sure that 50% of the cuban people are wired by certain time. we have no control of that. we have control of what is in our national interest. and i think it's more likely that it will occur that under the former policy we had. also, with regard to a statement made that whenever american traveler goes to cuba every dollar ends up with a cuban government, that simply is not the case. that may be said by those who haven't traveled to cuba recently. but many americans travel to

cuba. and it is true that you can't travel to cuba without some revenue going to government. that is certain. but the notion that every dollar spent ends up in the hands of cuban military is not the case. you have burj onning entremendousentre entrepreneurship is a testment to the fact that some money does flow to ordinary cuban people. that is then particularly the case with the travel of cuban-americans over the past couple of years. i should mention, when that policy was announced a couple of years ago the cuban-americans could travel not just once every three years but as often as they like. there was talk here in congress about reversing that you can't have that that's not good for the cuban people and not good for america. i can tell you there is no serious talk today about reversing that because why? because when americans get more freedom, we tend to enjoy that