police accountability aggression toward police public safety concerns, and what might be the right thing for us to work on now. since the t events that led to riots in ferguson, missouri police use of force has become scrutinized nationally. police use of force should be scrutinized locally that is. it should be examined in terms of factual data and circumstances that led to the police action and not from the emotional foundation of false narratives or catchy slogans like "hands up don't shoot," "no justice no peace" or "black lives matter." let's leave that conduct for the public tone gauge in not the mainstream media or those elected officials who can't resist the opportunity to exploit the emotions of an uninformed or misinformed public simply for political gain. we will no doubt hear a lost statistics thrown about today, some distorted to achieve a predetermined agenda. others are legitimate. in 2013 the united states department of justice under

attorney general eric holder did a study in conjunction with the national institute of justice on traffic stop data. they found that when you use control factors that statistics and research require for legitimate findings any racial disparities are attributed to differences in offending. the studies showed that black drivers violated speeding and other traffic laws at much greater rates than whites. that conclusion of the study under eric holder led d.o.j. might be ugly to some but is what the data and research have found. that same study showed that three out of every four black drivers said the police had a legitimate reason for stopping them. the same is true in arrest and incarceration data for african-american males. participation rates in violent crime explain the disparity of why so many black males are locked up in prison. black males are disproportionately involved in violent crime, and this violence is predominantly perpetrated against other black people.

it is not the result of a discriminatory criminal justice system. blacks make up 37.5% of the prison population at the state and federal level. if we release those convicted on drug charges aloerngs thene, the percentage of black males in prison would drop to 37%, a mere 1/2 of 1%. so much for the myth of black lives -- black males filling our prisons merely for drug convictions. not to mention that illegal drug use is the scourge of the black community and leads to a great deal of the violence that occurs. the police use of force data also tells a different story than the false narrative propagated by cop bashers in the liberal mainstream media. a recent study that look into police use of force between 2009 and 2012 showed this breakdown -- 61%, or 915 of the 1,491 people who died from police use of force were white males, while 32% 481 were

black males. it is a myth that police kill black males in greater numbers than anyone else. black on black crime is the elephant in the room that few want to talk about. we could talk about the police use of force. but it doesn't stop with transforming the police profession. it starts by asking why we need so much assertive policing in the american ghetto. are police officers perfect? not by any stretch of the imagination. are police agencies perfect? not even close. but we are the best that our communities have to offer. instead the conversation should be about transforming black underclass subculture behavior. the discussion must start with addressing the behavior of people who have no respect for authority, who fight with and try to disarm the police who flee the police, and who engage in other flawed lifestyle choices. bashing the police is the low-hanging fruit. it's easier to talk about the rare killing fortunately rare of a black male by police

because emotion can be exploited for political advantage. the police are easier to throw overboard because they can't fight back politically. this, however, is counterproductive and will lead to police pulling back in high-crime areas where good law-abiding black people live. black people will be the losers in all of this as violent crime rates skyrocket over time. this means more black victims. economist and author thomas soul, a man i admire had this to say about policing. if people are told they are under arrest and refuse to come with the police cannot be forcibly taken into custody, then we do not have the rule of law when the law itself is downgraded to suggestions that no one has the power to enforce. so i'll further point it out that for people who have never tried to take into custody somebody resisting arrest, to sit back in the safety and comfort of their homes or offices and second-guess people who face the dangers inherent in that process, dangers for both

the officer and the person under arrest is yet another example of the irresponsible, self-indulgences of our time." unquote. thank you very much. >> thank you sheriff clark. mr. hartley, welcome. you need to push that button. >> chairman and ranking member conyers -- >> pull it a little closer to you as well. >> is this better? >> yeah that's better. >> can you hear me now? okay. chairman goodlott and ranking member conyers and members of the committee on behalf of the commission for accreditation of law enforcement agencies commonly referred to as calea you this for this opportunity to present ideas for policing strategies in the 21st century. as a part of this discussion i think it is important to recognize that every year the over 1 million police officers dispersed across 18,000 agencies make over 40 million public contacts where they encounter incredibly sensitive and highly emotional situations. these interactions result in

millions of arrests annually and police use force or the threat of force 1.4% of the time. using mostly low-level applications. statistically, this is a strong indication of the adherence to the democratic principles of public safety service in this country. however, this can only occur where there are trusting relationships between the community and the police. recently the country has seen sips where this confidence has he shall oeded result hg in undesirable outcomes. although there's no single solution calea accreditation provides a strategy that establishes best practices through the application of policing standards. the model promotes community confidence and instills accountability across all levels of participating agencies. about 5% of law enforcement agencies participate, which equates to a little more than 25% of the nation's law enforcement officers working for enrolled agencies.

given this lel of penetration, the standards serve as a powerful tool to influence police policy and practice. the standards remain relevant through a dynamic process of review by leaders and public safety industry which include practitioners, academicians, judicial officials and other experts. additionally, research from leading professional association associations is leveraged and the process considers information from special interest groups on such topics as victims' rights and procedural justice. calea recently launched a review of standards to consider findings from the president's task force on 21st century policing and recent d.o.j. investigations of police agencies. all this with a focus on creating service philosophies that balance the need for safety and security with constitutionally protected rights and freedoms. the process of accreditation also focuses on intended outcomes. this is accomplished through a

sophisticated system of linking agency policy to standards and ensuring practices complement organizational directives. it is reinforced through data collection, on-sight observation, agency reporting, community input, and public commission hearings. as examples of these standards, palt participating organizations must develop effective citizen complaint procedures. this must include investigations of all complaints including those of an anonymous nature. the procedures must establish timelines for notification to xlinants and result in the posting of summary data for public consumption. from an operational perspective integrity in criminal investigation procedures is included in the accreditation process. this involves accountability with the preservation, collection, maintenance, and presentation of evidence. policies related to interviews, line-ups, and show-ups must be developed and followed.

calea accreditation requires agencies to develop community involvement practices to include establishing liaiseons with community organizations, the involvement of community members in the development of policy and publicizing agency objectives. although these are only a few outputs of accreditation, it demonstrates how standards address core issues impacting community confidence while supporting police as an institution. as an association, calea supports reasonable legislation to improve professionalism in the field of public safety. we support the concept of voluntary participation and accreditation to promote productive relationships with agencies. we support incentives and support agencies pursuing accreditation. and we advocate for stronger interaction with other governmental and non-governmental entities for standards development. and we value approaches that gradually and systematically transition public safety agencies to programming with

reasonable implementation timelines and technical assistance. the more than 1,030 public safety agencies enrolled in calea accreditation have voluntarily committed to presenting professional excellence through standards, compliance, and assessment. i would encourage lawmakers to support accreditation as an important tool for addressing the professional delivery of police services as a part of 21st century policing strategies. thank you, mr. chair 37. >> thank you, mr. hartley. ms. rahr welcome. >> mr. chair members of the committee, it's my honor to be invited to testify today. i'd like you to know a little bit about my background so you can put my comments in context. i started policing in 1979 as a patrol deputy and for the next 33 years had the privilege of serving my community in assignments such as patrol undercover narcotics, i commanded our gang unit in the seattle metropolitan area for

three years, and spent a great deal of time working with police conduct cases and training. when i retired as the elected sheriff in 2012, i had the good fortune of coming to our state's police academy where we train all 10,000 law enforcement officers in the state of washington. i've learned a great deal from those recruits. as we embark on this dialogue today i think it's critically important we consider a large range of factors that impact the environment in which police operate and that we consider strategies that are most likely to increase public trust and yes, ma'am prove public safety. i'd like to highlight two of these major factors. to add to the context, i think we have a tendency to talk about the bad apples. i'd like to talk about the barrel and the people who make the barrels. the first factor is the absence of a national coherence in policing. we have 18000 individual police departments, each with unique cultures and reflecting the policies and practices that are a product of those 18000 local

governments, with a diverse range of values and expectations. agency size ranges from one officer to more than 34,000 officers. about half of those 18,000 agencies have ten officers or less. awful these departments operate in one of our 50 states, each with a unique system of justice that dictates how criminal cases are initiated, processes and adjudicate adjudicated. although many states mandate peace officer certification and standards for hiring and training, most states exert limited control over their local law enforcement. outside of consent decrees and the distribution and withholding of federal funds the influence of the federal government on local policing is also limited. the bottom line is there is no single description of united states police culture and practice. the environment and the challenges faced by police departments vary widely, and the control and oversight of our police is almost exclusively local. the second major factor to

consider is that police departments do not operate independently. in most cities police chiefs are hired or fired by the mayor or another elected municipal executive. most sheriffs are elected by the voters that they are sworn to protect and serve. while police -- when police exert control over citizens, they do so at the behest of an official elected by the people. crime control strategies don't emerge in isolation. nor do decisions about police accountability. those decisions are made by independently elected officials and prosecutors. too often the scrutiny of disturbing incidents begins and ends with the police department with little examination of those factors outside the agency that influence priorities and practices. the importance of a broader focus of inquiry was illustrated in the recent examination into the government practices in the city of ferguson. the findings serve as a powerful example of the influence of governing forces outside of the police department itself.

ideas for improving policing in the 21st century need to consider both of these major factors. most changes in policies and procedures musting adopted by local governments in order to be implemented. for example, the requirement to use body-worn cameras must consider local and state laws related to the gathering, management, and disclosure of data as well as local and state laws protecting individual privacy. these changes will take time require a great deal of cooperation, and in some cases the barriers may be insurmountable. there are, however meaningful steps that can be taken at various levels of government without changing laws. these steps will improve the culture of policing and expand police training in ways that contribute to increased public trust and improved safety. the recommendations of the president's task force range -- contain a full range of actions that can be implemented immediately and some that are

more long-term strategies. one of the areas of focus contained in the recommendations relates to police training. i sent to you a copy of an academic report that i co-authored. it was published by the kennedy school at harvard and published by the national institute of justice. this paper expands on the importance of addressing the leadership culture in police departments and suggests a path toward improving culture through effective training. i hope these ideas will be beneficial as this committee explores ways to improve policing in the 21st centery. thank you very much. >> thank you, ms. rahr. and mr. barge, welcome. >> mr. chairman ranking member conyers, distinguished members of the committee, my name is matthew barge. i'm the vice president and the deputy director of the police assessment resource center. for 14 years parc has provided independent counsel to upward of 30 police agencies and communities, helping them solve problems and incorporate best practices on effective safe and constitutional policing. i want to thank you for the

opportunity to appear before you today. in light of recent events some have wondered whether local police agencies are capable of transforming or repairing trust with the communities that they serve. i'm here to tell you that police departments can change and indeed are changing. real reform is difficult and messy work. but agencies can put in place the systems, the policies and the culture necessary to self-manage the risk of unconstitutional policing and enhance community confidence. some agents affirmatively seek reform. the voluntary implementation of parc's recommendations in portland, oregon for example led to significant decreases in use of force and complaints about police without increases in crime or officer injury. however, local law enforcement is not always good at self-identifying problems. i work daily with police officers who represent public service at its most selfless and laudable. but the departments where they work often resemble what might happen if a stereotypical

department of motor vehicles ran the u.s. military. an inefficient, inept bureaucracy overseeing a rigid command and control structure. this produces a culture often resistant to new approaches, transparency and real accountability, where issues fester the u.s. department of justice may exercise the authority granted by this body to conduct an investigation into alleged patterns of misconduct. where allegations are substantiated a federal court overseeing consent decree may result. the process is akin to emergency open heart surgery for police departments. it addresses serious systemic issues and is used selectively and at critical moments. currently d.o.j.'s enforcing ten consent decrees. parc's executive director is the court-appoint independent mosht for one, address the seattle police department, where i serve as his deputy. regardless of how reform is initiated, the bedrock of policing in the 21st century must be a strong responsive relationship between the

nation's police departments and the communities that they serve. to that end a common playbook of specific real-world reforms semiengineering for promoting public and officer safety, efficiency, constitutional rights, and public trust. first, officers need more specific guidelines on using force in the real world. the bare, often vague requirements of courts in this area may work for judges in the comforts of their courtrooms but officers and communities need clear and more pragmatic rules. second departments need internal mechanisms for critical self-analysis. for instance, a standard d.o.j. consent decree reform is a commission of a dedicated board for critically evaluating all uses of force so that a department can continually update policy and procedure and training in light of real world lessons learned. likewise, permanent civilian oversight mechanisms can give communities a real-time check and an important say in how policing is conducted. third, too many agencies have no idea what their officers are

doing. if data exists on use of force or stop activity it's often inaccurate, inaccessible or ignored. policing in the 21st century needs to take full advantage of the information systems that we take for granted in many other areas of public and private life. fourth, in the cities where we work we continually hear from individuals that the weights and burdens of law enforcement are not equally shared and there is some empirical evidence to support that proposition. the challenge for police departments is to find ways of addressing an issue that at minimum is deeply affecting the police community relationship. forward-thinking departments are providing officers with training on minimizing the effects of implicit bias and on person-based decision-making. modern american policing faces an era of unparalleled challenges. with too many communities viewing the police as them rather than us. the challenge that law enforcement agencies must embrace is to implement the kinds of common sense steps that

might enhance accountability and enhance public trust. with that i thank you again for the opportunity to be here. >> thank you mr. barge. ms. ramirez, welcome. you'll want to turn that on. >> thank you chairman goodlott and ranking member conyers and the house committee on the judiciary. the police killing of michael brown and eric garner in july and august of 2014 have triggered protests not only in the cities in which those killings occurred but also throughout this country. and since those shootings there have been others. freddie gray in baltimore and walter lemaire scott in south carolina. it's plain to me and i expect to all of you today here that these protests are not just about the unwillingness to prosecute all but one of those

officers for these shootings but about a long-simmering resentment in the african-american and latino communities that the criminal law applies differently to them than it does to white americans, that the police too often stop and frisk latino and african-american youths with impunity and without reasonable articulable suspicion. that automobiles driven by african-americans, especially in white neighborhoods are too often stopped by police for driving while black. that the death of a black man at the hands of police is seen as more forgivable than the death of a white man. that prosecutors are less willing to see hispanic and african-american defendants as candidates for rehabilitation who deserve and need a break and

therefore they are more willing to press for mandatory sentences against them. and that more black men age 18 to 21 are in prison or in jail than in college. we can and should debate how accurate the statistical studies are and how accurate these perceptions are. and w4eg9 they're more accurate in some states and municipalities than in others. but i think we can agree that these perceptions are accurate more often and in too many places than we would want them to be and that the perception itself is a reason for great concern because beyond the statistical studies we cannot be one nation if a significant percentage of our community members police they are

receiving an inferior quality of justice or no justice at all. the protests have provided an impetus for change but they can't produce change by themselves. we need to ensure that these protests are different from previous protests and that they don't merely cry out for justice but actually lead to more justice. and to accomplish that we need a road map for change, and we need to press our leaders in congress and elsewhere to follow that road map and travel to a place where justice is more and fairer. to move past these tragedies we need to move past some concrete things. first we need to strengthen police-community relations by creating community policing models, focused on the

development of partnerships between police organizations and the communities they serve. how? new infrastructure and architecture. infrastructure and architecture that might provide the coherence we need. and the coherence we need to bring to this enterprise. we need to create in every state federally funded community policing institutes dedicated to creating the tools, templates, training and best practices for bringing the police and the community members to the table for discussions on how best to keep their communities safe and strong. and we need to increase police transparency by letting the public know what the police are doing. and that can only occur when state and local police departments are required to keep data regarding police stops,

searches, and shootings and to record the race of persons stopped, searched, or shot. why? because you can't possibly manage what you don't measure. transparency also means requiring police to install cruiser cameras, to wear body cameras, and to monitor police discretion to turn those cameras off. my last point is about accountability. which means that allegations of police misconduct or situations in which a police officer shoots a civilian should be handled by an independent inspector general. the investigation and prosecutorial decision should not rest in the hands of a district attorney dependent on that police department for its criminal investigations past and

future. so we need police-community partnerships, a state institute to support them cameras, data collection and an independent inspector general to investigate police misconduct. the road map doesn't end here today at this table. the next part is the most difficult. how do we implement it? the system is broken. we need democrats and republicans to come together to craft a road map to justice and figure out how to fund and implement it. only then will we be able to create stronger and safer communities. >> thank you, ms. ramirez. i'll begin the questioning and start with you sheriff clark. when you talk with citizens in your office -- do they want more or less of a police presence? [ audio feedback ]

>> do they complain more about the actions of the police or the inactions of the police? >> they ask for more. they complain about both. and i think that's human nature. they want safer neighborhoods. they want safer communities. they know they're going to have to have assertive policing in some of these high-crime areas to get that done. it's situational. they complain about slow calls for service responses, things like that which can have an effect on a person's trust in their law enforcement agency. in other words, we call but they don't come. so it's a moving -- it's fluid. and like i said, situational. we deal with it on a situational basis. >> do your officers generally feel -- i don't know what the right word is. welcome, comfortable in these tougher communities to police.

>> without a doubt. it's one of the hallmarks i believe of my administration, to create a relationship -- we talk about trust. i believe in the milwaukee area anyway, that's whak speak to personally. there's a great relationship. we do not have -- we meaning law enforcement officers do not have a great relationship with the criminal element. there's no doubt about that. but i think sometimes this is -- i believe it exists this lack of trust within segments of the community, but not as a whole within the minority community. i just -- i bristle at that perception. >> good. i'm glad to hear that. mr. hartley, you wrote in your testimony that only 5% of the nation's law enforcement agencies participate in accreditation. that really surprised me. what's the biggest obstacle you face in terms of getting other agencies accredited?

is it leadership, cost, or something else? >> i will tell you, i think it's a combination of all those things but i think it really starts with leadership prerogative about what those organizational leaders think is important to them and the delivery of leadership across their organizations itself. we do hear concerns that the cost of accreditation is too much. we also hear that the cost associated with involvement in the process is difficult because our accreditation process requires them to do things that they otherwise may not do. i can tell you that the process is really structured around key and fundamental sound principles of police service delivery. and so the process of accreditation doesn't increase accountability that's already there. it measures accountability and serves as a yardstick and a framework to keep organizations focused on key and fundamental areas. but again, it does relate to cost in some places and in-con services and management of the process, mr. chair. >> ms. ramirez, is there a

problem with current legal precedents as they relate to the use of force? [ audio feedback ] >> i don't know what's wrong with our microphones. does it result in second-guessing of officers? >> i'm sorry. is the question whether or not -- >> i'll repeat it. is there a problem with current legal precedents as they relate to the use of force? and does it result in second-guessing of officers' decisions? >> i don't think this is primarily a legal problem. i think it's a problem with the community not fully understanding all of the pressures, procedures, protocols that the police are engaged in and the police not discussing and educating the community about the things that the police

have to take into account as they go through a stop and search process. but i don't believe this is a legal problem. i think it's a training problem. i think it's a problem that involves -- that would be solved with better community policing. >> thank you. and mr. barge, i'll let you answer that same question, but i also want to add you mention in your testimony that after your organization was called into portland there was a sharp drop in officer-involved shootings, use of force, and citizen complaints without any increase in officer injuries. what do you think most directly causes that? >> as the legal precedent, you know question i think that as i said in my testimony, judges in courtrooms use a very different set of standards and rules to guide fairer and efficient decision-making. officers on the street, i think as all of us can attest to, you don't have the luxury of

examining all of the facts as they turned out to be and have to make split-second judgment calls. i think one thing that police agencies can do right now is to ask themselves how do i want our police officers to react in these emerging use of force situations and craft more specific clearer guidance where appropriate? and hold their officers rigorously accountable to those policies. the policies can do what the courts cannot as a condition of an officer being employed in that department. as to portland i think you know, what we did there was to institute a number of reforms that are very tested. they've been implemented in places where the d.o.j. has gone in the consent decree process. in portland we had an opportunity to implement those reforms in a voluntary sort of capacity. the city wanted us there and the police department wanted us there. and it was about sort of

instilling mechanisms whereby the police asked themselves difficult questions, asked what we could learn from incidents that went wrong what could we do different from the future. and i think that kind of culture just by the numbers that the city auditor found there really had changed -- changed the department for the better. >> thank you very much. the gentleman from michigan mr. conyers is recognized for his question. >> thank you. i appreciate the different contributions from each of the five panelists, and i think we're off to a good discussion. i'd like you to know that thanks to the chairman and mr. scott and sensenbrenner we've been having hearings on overcriminalization. they started out for six months

and the chairman, goodlatte added six more months to it it was so effective. this moves us further along. but the fact of the matter is how do we change this culture? this goes back a long ways. this isn't something a recent phenomenon at all. and so i'm thinking about how we get into this infrastructure and architecture that we're trying to move to and i'd like to look at that for just a moment. but before we do i'd like to raise the question of police

prosecutions. we all know the conundrum, the prosecutor and the police work together much of the time, and then all of a sudden the prosecutor's got to decide whether to prosecute one that he's been working with a long time. professor ramirez and any of the rest of you police, let's look at that for a moment. >> as a former federal prosecutor i've worked with law enforcement and i know firsthand the difficult and dangerous work that they do. but i also believe that when there has been a civilian who's been shot or police misconduct it is very hard for a prosecutor who works day in and day out with these law enforcement officers and knowing they worked with them in the past and in the

future to make an independent decision, which is why i think we need a process different from the process that we have now. so i talk about having an independent inspector general make the decision. >> yes. >> but also we need more transparency in the decision-making process. so right now we have a secret grand jury process. maybe we need something more like an inquest process or some kind of new process in which in these instances we can develop a way to be more transparent about that pretrial investigation that takes place now by a prosecutor in the grand jury context. and i wanted to say one more thing about reducing use of force. the studies have shown that in departments where they've used cameras, body cameras and cameras in the car that there has been a significant decrease in use of force.

and it gives us the opportunity to learn from the recorded instances about best practices for deescalation. so when we have cameras and there is an incident whether the officer succeeded or failed to escalate, we could learn more about it. >> what's been your experience in terms of this problem of more or less where do we go from here? mr. hartley, what do you think? no, we can go wider than that. >> i think just to kind of parlay that discussion into a little more broad sense i think the most important thing for any organization to do is to prepare for that bad event.

we know that regardless of the best planning you're still going to have people that are engaged in fundamental decisions around the enforcement of law that have impacts on communities. but the reality of it is that if the preparation takes place in the proper way with the proper folks around the table it relieves those expectations of negativity, if you will, and it promotes organizational confidence in how the process will be managed. i don't feel comfortable saying that one size fits all for each agency because i think each jurisdiction brings on different attributes in the development of those types of things. but for the public's consideration and for the officers' consideration confidence in the process is important and it has to do with planning for the event from start to finish and include community contacts media engagement, and other processes related to the legal system. >> thank you very much. miss rahr just in closing do you see some hope in president

obama's recent statements on the subject when he was in camden yesterday? >> i do. i think there are a number of recommendations that will be helpful to every police department in the nation. for some departments they'll be able to follow many of those recommendations. i hope that as time goes on the distribution of federal funding and resources will take into account the cooperation of agencies that are doing their best to follow those recommendations. >> thank you. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from south carolina, mr. gowdy, for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. professor ramirez, you mentioned a couple of cases in your opening statement. and i know that time is short when you only have five minutes and you were not able to address other cases. i wanted to ask you whether or not you were familiar with a few other cases. sandy rogers and scotty richardson from akin, south

carolina. are you familiar with that case? >> no, sir. >> how about roger dale rice from lauren, south carolina? are you familiar with that case? >> no, sir. >> eric nicholson or marcus whitfield from greenville, south carolina? are you familiar with that case? >> no, sir. >> russ sorrow from greenville, south carolina. >> no, sir. >> or kevin carper from spartanburg, south carolina. >> no, sir. >> professor, those are just a handful of the more than 340 police officers who were killed in the line of duty in south carolina. in kevin carper's case it's most instructive because his partner did cpr on the suspect that killed kevin trying to save his life. let me ask it another way. are you familiar with the case of ricky samuel? >> no, sir. >> how about tammica houston? >> no, sir. >> how about nell lindsay? >> no, sir. >> miranda all.

>> no, sir. >> santiago rios. >> no, sir. >> those are all folks that were the victim of intraracial homicides in south carolina. and i hasten to add there were not protested with any of those police officer killings or any of the intraracial killings. and i'll suspect you agree with me, professor that all lives matter, whether you're killed by a police officer or your next-door neighbor you're every bit as dead aren't you? >> yes, sir. i actually, as a former prosecutor and someone who's worked with police officers, have the deepest respect for them. >> so do i. and despite that deep respect, professor, i still maintain the objectivity of prosecuting police officers whoen gauged engaged in misconduct. we have a process in place if you don't think you can be fair. it's called recusal. which is what some of us did in

every single one of our officer-involved shootings. we recused it to another prosecutor so he or she could make that decision. so there is a process in place. you called for a process. there is one. it's called recusal. do you know as a former prosecutor or can you deign what may have been the biggest impediment to our being able to successfully prosecute homicide cases, particularly homicide cases involving victims of color in my criminal justice jurisdiction, do you know what the biggest impediment was? >> in massachusetts one of the biggest impediments is trying to get witnesses to come forward. >> you're exactly right. you're exactly right. you have a victim of color, and we had trouble getting ingting witnesses to cooperate with law enforcement and prosecutors, which then as you know diminishes the quality of that case and your ability to prosecute it, which may result in a lesser plea bargain because

you don't have the facts which may then result in what you said in your opening statement, which is people have the tendency to treat black lives differently than white when the reality is the case wasn't quite as good. isn't that a possibility too? >> for every prosecutor who's out there this is a serious problem and you are correct in pointing that out, sir. >> and it wasn't just me pointing it out professor. i happen to have a fantastic chief of police when i was the d.a. fantastic man by the name of tony fisher. who happened to be an african-american chief of police. and he lamented the exact same thing you and i are talking about. is the loss of life in his community and the refusal of people to cooperate even in a drive-by shooting of an 8-year-old at a birthday party. a drive-by shooting outdoors where the whole world saw the car drive by and nobody would

cooperate with the prosecution. in the murder of an 8-year-old. so i hope that part of this 21st century police strategies conversation that we're having includes getting people to cooperate with law enforcement so you can hold people to the exact same standard regardless of the race of the victim. and i want to say this too. i want to thank my friend ced rich sxhan hakeem jeffries and others who are working on this issue because they want a justice system that is colorblind. after all, it's represented by a woman wearing a blindfold. so let's go ahead and make it colorblind. and both of those guys have worked really, really hard and will continue to do so. because let me tell you what my goal is. my goal is for witnesses to feel comfortable cooperating. but here's my other goal. and i'm out of time, but i'm going to share it with you. i want us to get to the point where we lament the death, the murder of a black female like

nell lindsay just as much if it's at the hand of an abusive husband, which it was, if it had been at the hands of a white cop. i'd like to get to the point where we're equally outraged at the loss of life. and i hope we can get there. with that i would yield back. >> the chair thanks the gentleman, recognizes the gentleman from texas, ms. jackson-lee for five minutes. >> mr. chairman, thank you so very much. and let me thank both you and the ranking member my ranking member for listening and engaging and leading. and i was delighted to participate in the process. and i'd like to say to my colleagues that this effort of criminal justice reform was going to be a committee effort. every member's input and assessment and analysis and

legislative initiatives will stand equal in the eyes of the chairman and certainly those of us who serve as the chairperson and ranking member of the crime subcommittee, as i do. america will not be responded to unless this committee works together. and that efforts are in unison and collective responding of course to the many witnesses that will come before us. so this is the first year. and i think america should recognize the very large step that we are making. sheriff clark, let me thank you for your service. we may agree to disagree, but there is no disagreement with your service and the sacrifice you that represent. as you indicated we met a couple of weeks ago. just may 15th i was on the west side of the campus of this great

congress dealing with the many families who had lost loved ones in law enforcement. so my tone today will be that we do ill when we take each other's pain lightly. the pain of black lives matter. the pain of hands up don't shoot, the pain of i can't breathe. that is pain. and it is equally the pain of mr. greer who was on the steps of his house august 2013 and was shot in virginia. he happened to be an anglo or caucasian male. what we have to do to make a legislative step of monumental change that gives our officers the confidence of their work, further enhance their training is to be able to work together. my line of questioning will be how do we fix these problems and how do we get the 5% number?

that is a lot of officers. to be 25%, 50% accreditation. that's what the american people i think are looking at. i don't want anyone's pain to be diminished, and i sit here today recognizing that pain. so let me just quickly say this regarding statistics. james comb yeerks the director of the fbi, said the following about the fbi crime report the now 3-year-old source that was cited in the sheriff's testimony. said the following -- demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our uniform crime reporting program. because reporting is voluntary our data sin complete and therefore in the aggregate unreliable. mr. hartley i have thought that data is important. introduced a bill called the cadet bill to gather statistics on shootings by police and by individuals against police. because i believe in fairness. and so if this was required, would that be an asset to calea

as you do your scientific work of providing insight for training? >> miss jackson -- >> microphone. >> is your mike on? >> sorry about that. ms. jackson-lee let me start by saying that i think data helps drive decision making and it helps drive it in an important way because you don't know what you don't know sometimes. and what we find is organizations that engage with calea in accreditation discover data during the process that really helps them make fundamental decision that's drive the organization in a responsible way toward community service. >> do you have enough money to accredit all of the police departments across america? would you need some incentivizing, some funding to help you do that? >> well, we don't need the incentivizing or funding to help that occur. those organizations sometimes do. organizations that participate with us range in size from 10,000 to 10. >> so funding to them would be a helpful component of police accountability? >> i think that would support agencies in this mission. >> i've got a series of

questions. on the calea standards on body cameras, police arrests and transport and independent review of lethal force by issues i'm now concerned about because when the issue came out in baltimore it wasn't sort of put aside. the police departments were saying all over, some of the things we do. but do you have standards on that use of illegal force? >> we have standards on all those subjects. the one related the transport didn't particularly trace the issue in baltimore, however there is a standard that encourages a safe transport of individuals. >> we need to help enhance that and make that a noticeable part of policing across america. >> i think the standards are a dynamic living pool and as we encount er encounter new issues, we have to be ready to make those adjustments. >> i quickly ask you, you have written about the obstacles in training programs. the status quo, can you explain

and add to your conversation? i don't want any police officer, you know everyone say great relationships. i'm a big believer. and then the idea of deescalation in training aened how that impacts on police interaction. >> time has expired. the witness is is is allowed to answer. >> it's a very exciting hearing. thank you. >> i have described the philosophical shift that i have been promoting for a couple of years as moving our culture closer to a guardian mentality rather than a warrior mentality. i believe the warrior mentality was a result of a political movement that started in the '60s when we declared war on crime, were on drugs, war on all sorts of things. the police agencies across this

nation responded as they do to their political leadership in their communities. what i'm trying to do is help our new police officers find the right balance because officers absolutely must have keen warrior skills and they must be able to use them without hesitation or policy. but i want them to consider their role within our democracy. and that role needs to be the role of a protector. with the goal of protecting people rather than conquering them. when you try to initiate this type of a mind set shift, there is naturally going to be resistance. the greatest i've encountered is just the misunderstanding. when i have the opportunity to explain it in more depth most officers will say to me, that's how good cops have always done it. i want our recruits on their first day on the street to have the wisdom of a good cop with 20 years experience.

>> time has expired. the chair recognizes the chair from michigan. >> i yield back. >> from michigan, mr. pitch onbishop for five minutes. >> thank you. i'd like to thank the panel for your testimony today. >> sheriff, i had an opportunity to speak with the law enforcement community in my community around i did a round table edition about the events o the day and events that had been raised. they were concerned as well about some of the bad accuracy in their own rank and file. that we've been seeing around this country and very concerned about it but also, adamant about the fact they express eded the vast majority of the officers they work with, the emergency response personnel, are hard working, good professional people who are there for a common purpose and that is the to serve the public.

their concern that doesn't resognate that we see more now by the bad than we do about some of this negative that's going on. it's important we deal with tharks but it's also important we do whatever we can to rally behind those in the law enforcement community. what's going on with the moral of the community and are you having problems with recruitment and retention of officers as a result of all that's going on around the country? >> mr. chair, congressman, we're on a tipping point and it is something i expressed not too long after what happened in

ferguson missouri about the psyche of the police officer, constant bashing and maligning of the profession is is starting to take its toll. i just spent this week in the d.c. area for the national law enforcement officers memorial. police week, if you will and i talked the law enforcement officers from all across this country and the one common theme i heard from them first of all they're mind set is they're beleaguered right now, but the common theme that i heard is you know, sheriff, i don't know if i want to continue to take that extra step anymore because i don't want to be the next darren wilson. the next, the officers in baltimore or new york or anywhere. because they in a good faith effort, we're talking inging about the good faith action here we operate in an environment of chaos and uncertainty when we get sent to these calls. sometimes in this imperfect world, things can go horribly

wrong, which they did in ferguson, missouri. i'm not going to get into you know, whose fault it was but something went horribly wrong. but some of the best law enforcement work that goes on all across the country is called self-initiated. it's not the call for service. when an officer gets sent to a call for service, something already happened. it's reactive. the crime already occurred. but the self-initiated policing is when that officer, that man or woman, uses their experience, their sixth sense, if you will, their street sense, that criminal activity may be afoot and they establish the reasonable suspicious so that they can make that stop. consist ebt consistent with our constitution. they go and investigate. they pull that car over or go and what we call, stick up a group of individuals hanging on a corner or casing an area and we start to investigate. in self-initiated policing you're going to find that guns

are being used to transport to and from drive by shootings, you're going to find prohibited persons with firearm you're going to find drugs you're going to find people wanted on serious felony warrants. when that starts to fall off, and there will be a lag time. this isn't going to happen overnight. the cops in this country are not going to quit but over time when they start to worry they look and see that suspicious vehicle or individual and say, maybe not today. i don't want this thing to go haywire on me and the next thing you know, i'm one of those officers that, who becomes a household name in america. that is going to a lag time. i don't like to create hysteria, but over time, i think it's going to have an effect on crime rates. in those communities that need assertive policing and those are minority communities.

>> i'll yield back. >> recognize the gentleman from new york, mr. nad lehr for five minutes. >> before i ask a question, let me make an observation. sheriff clark talked about the sixth sense about taking that tra accept. sometimes, taking that extra step is very necessary, but sometimes, maybe we want to officer not to take that extra step. maybe that's sometimes the problem and that leads into the question of changing police culture, which miss briar talked about. what is the greatest challenge in changing police culture? >> i think the greatest challenge is recognizing that we have a real variety of cultures already existing across the country. when officers come to begin their career of service, most come to the table with the goal of doing something good, doing something to benefit the country, then they're confronted with the realities of trying

those good things. sometimes, taking on a tougher persona and they may lose sight of their original reasons for walk ng the door. i think we need to work harder. make sure that they are healthy both mentally and physically and that they feel supported by the agency. if an officer doesn't feel support inside their agency they're not going to be willing to take a risk and try something different. they're not going to be willing to take as much of a risk to go out on a limb to protect someone. i think the internal culture of policing is absolutely critical and when that is strong and healthy and confident, officers will be willing to try something different. >> and what, if anything can we in congress do to help this change? >> i would love to see congress provide funding for improved training. i'll just cut right to the chase. there are a number of excellent

programs already in existence that could be, could literally transform the profession of policing in this country. i've been involved for the last couple of years with a program called blue courage and that program seeks to support police officers, build their pride, build their sense of high morale and especially assist them in seeing their appropriate role within as a guardian in democracy. that program costs money and agencies that want to acquire that training have to pay for an officer -- >> proep rating money for training. anything else? >> besides training? >> besides money? >> i'm sorry. i think just the recognition that individual police agencies need to be supported. there is not going to be a one size fits all federal solution to this. >> thank you very much. profess

professor ramirez, we've had a number of all over the country, a number of problems obviously with violence against citizens who turned out not to have weapons or be guilt of anything. sometimes police are happy with that, sometimes, they're not. we've seen these controversyies and of course, it's been suggested that the da are too close without being partisan where they are or not. should we consider a special should we have a law who investigates toward investigations of police officers on the grounds that the das are too close? >> i think it would be a good

idea. >> with that, in confidence and impartiality and what are the negatives on it? >> while we have a recusal system, the district attorney in ferguson did not recuse himself. and i think having laws in a process would create more legitimacy and transparency to the public. >> thank you. what is also what is the greatest impediment to prosecutor ing prosecutoring police officers who violate rights of individuals in official capps thety? obviously, we don't do 180 -- deprivation of civil rights officer often, so what is by the federal government, the biggest impediment to prosecute police officers who ought to be prosecutor. >> i am someone who has prosecuted police officers and in a prosecutorial office when you work with police, when you work with law enforcement it is very hard to decide to prosecute

prosecute. >> we talked about in our previous question. >> last because my time is running out, obviously, there have been a lot of controversial encounters and some of which police officers prosecuted others which they weren't. sometimes, the da was -- would it be better for the sense of justice on the part of relatives of victims, would it be better for the police officers who could be exonerated by this if police officers used body cameras all the time when ever they had such an encount erer? >> i think cameras are critical at this juncture and we know four things happen when you put them in place because we've done verge on this. in both great bretten and this country. first, the use of force deminishes an that's important. because police officers know that they're being recorded during an incident.

second complaints against police officers deminiminished significantly, the cost and process of these incidents. surprisingly, the third thing is that there's been an increase in successful prosecution of domestic violence because the police can record on the scene at the time what happened. the fourth thing that would be helpful in moving the police culture from a warrior culture to a guardianship culture is that you could begin to have guardianship metrics. how many people did you arrest search, seize? how many guns, how many drugs? if you had cameras, you could begin to do two things. you could begin to evaluate officers on guardianship values. you could look at every 100th tape and say was this officer respectful?

courteous? did they follow proceediers? and it ser evers as an early warning system to police because if you're watching on a regular basis randily on a regular basis, you will discern who are the bad apples. >> thank you. i yield back. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from arizona. mr. franks for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. to paraphrase the poet, we sleep safe in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence of those who would do us harm and certainly i believe that that in the people that wear the uniform the many women that wear the uniform, fit in that paradigm very well because unless there are those that are willing to stand between the innocent and the malevolent, then the malevolent will prevail. i think those that wear the uniform and place themselves in those dangerous positions are

among the most noble figures in our society. and sheriff mark sheriff clark, i heard you on one of the television interviews and was so struck by your clarity and your yeeg l eyed approach and i thought this gentleman personifies that noble theility we talk about and i think my children and the children of this country have a safer, more hopeful future because of people like you so i would suggest that might be why you're here on this hearing this morning. zbr but my question is first if for you. have the recent events and the press response had any quind of impact on your officers or made them more likely to employ strategies and tactics that mikt comp compromise their safety or the safety of the community? >> mr. chair, congressman,

without a doubt as part of that tipping point that i talked about. you know, we need balance in this obviously and even if we find it, maintaining it is going to be more difficult. an officer delaying that thing that's telling him or her to do a certain thing that doesn't happen and may cost them their lives, but let me say this about the use of body cameras. i am for this, the use of this text message. ipg it's a force multiplier. it can only help. but what i've been advising is i think we're rushing into this because we're going to end up with a lot of unintended consequences. there are some privacy issues involved. it could lead to fewer people wanting to come forward and wanting to cooperate with police. especially in our minority communities, where cooperating with police can lead you to a very bad conclusion. you don't want to be seen doing that. you don't want to be videotaped cooperating with the police, so we need to think b about what

impact it will have on witnesses within thing to come forward or even calling to report crime and i want to close by saying that you know, the use of body cameras in the early evidence that it's leading to fewer complaints and fewer instances of force, is not and is is evidence to suggest it's not to show it, that there isn't just the result of the officer knowing that someone's watching. it's also letting the person who the officer's dealing with know if i make a false complaint against this officer, it's going to be on video and that could lead to a decrease in complaints as well. so wront want to everybody to presume that it's because the officers are being watched that they're changing their behavior. the same with suspects. maybe they're less likely to fight the police, so that's why i say i support that.

i say let's not rush into this because it's not a panacea. thank you. >> thank you, sir. >> in your testimony, you discussed the absence of a national coherence in policing. i wonder how you would propose to implement national policing standards while still ensuring that local police departments maintain the autonomy necessary to be relevant in their own jurisdictions. >> sir, i have a set of national standards. what the test course worked on was recommendations to provide guidance and more support for police departments. i don't think we will ever come to a place where we have national standards for police policies and procedures. there's just too many different variables in each community. >> mr. chairman i would just suggest, is sir, that while i think everyone sees our police force in general as guardians, i'm thankful that there are

enough warrior mentality among them to hold back those that would desecrate the innocent and i yield back. >> recognizes the gentleman from tennessee, mr. cohen. >> thank you mr. chair and i want to thank you for holding this hear and i want to say i started my legal career, i was a lawyer, as attorney for memphis police. spent three and a half years working for the police and i understand it and appreciate and know it's essential for an order of liberty in a society that's has on the front line men and women willing to risk their lives. on the other hand i have great respect for mr. goudy. he was the day we roo the death of the lady and i forget her name, who was apparently killed by her husband in a dmesomestic violence situation, the same as the problems when a white policeman kills a black citizen and i would have to say, there's a big difference. one is a private tragedy.

the other is a public tragedy because it's under color of law. and while we like to see no crime whatsoever and that would be wonderful we can only mostly be concerned about the color of law killings. and that's something we should be concerned about. it's a big difference. a question for professor ramirez. you mentioned decisions rest in hands of das and mr. goudy mentioned recusals. they're up to the da and in the recommendations of the president's task force, there were recommendations that we have an independent prosecutor. congressman clay and i introduced a bill that requires states to adopt independent laws or face a cut in burn jag funding. this would present a solution.

is part of the reason the problem exists, is is it perception? is it part of the reason why you think it's important to have an independent prosecutor because the -- >> i believe that the prosecutors across the country try to do the best they can and exercise the best judgment. because of this inherent conflict, there may be the perception in the eye of the public that this was not a fair and full hearing. >> the da's main witnesses are police and in my community, the da hire which makes sense former sheriff's people to be their investigators. >> yes, sir. >> so, there's an inherent conflict. that's the reason we have our bill because we think not only would it get eliminate the perception, but also, there are

certain cases where it's politics involved and the, a base for the who's elected is is law enforcement and that's a problem. you were a member of the president's task force and thank you for your work and your colleague's work. the task force recommended the use of independent prosecutors. was that recommendation for das to not if the recommendation was based on instances where das did not pursue cases as aggressively as they should or was this based on a mere perception on a conflict of interest? >> in our debates and conversations, the primary focus was on the perception and we have to maintain public trust. there are many prosecutors that are perfectly capable i believe of doing an objective investigation and prosecution of police shootings. unfortunately, we have to maintain public trust.

and when you balance those two issues it was the con census that they had to have more weight than just the pragmatism of those prosecuted. >> you mentioned training. part of the bill i had required some kind of sensitivity training to understand ethnic differences and maybe secular orientation districts. do you think it's helpful for the diverse societies we have today. >> i believe it would be helpful, i wouldn't entitle it sensitivity because i think the police would shut down. >> sheriff clark, you've mentioned in your testimony that much of the population in the state and federal prisons was for violent crime. probably that's true, but in the federal system, it's mostly for drug crime. that's where the drug situation really fills up the federal

prisons and you said that illegal drug use is the scourge of the black community and it is a problem and leads to a great deal of violence crime. would you agree that marijuana possession is is not the scourge of the black community and does not lead to violent crime the same way meth, crack, cocaine and heroin do? >> no, i wouldn't agree. >> that's interesting and wished i had more time to talk to you, but thank you for allowing me this opportunity and the defense attorney is is not supposed to ask the question, but it was such an obvious answer, i just never thought i'd get that answer. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from iowa, mr. king for five minutes. >> resisting the temptation to yield to mr. cohen i'd put out i have in my hand an article titled and dated by the way, the 6th of may, but it's titled obama praised baltimore police he's now investigating.

and it points out the study this the gentleman from tennessee referenced, the president's task force on 21st century policing, which i have in my hand and quote frs the police chief of baltimore who said he changed outdated procedures that put officers at odds with the community. this goes back to march of 2015 was dated the report date of this article is is the first week or so in may. it's interesting to me i listened to the testimony of mr. roar and i give you credit for that, that you'd like to see a shift from the warrior mentality to that of a guardian and i think of the night i came here and i watched live on television. i saw the baltimore police retreat from rock throwing mobs, so is there a time they need to convert back to the warrior mentality and was that the time?

>> i want to clarify when i talk about a guardian mentality. that absolutely does not imply retreat. it does not imply weakness. it implyies being able to do thing two things at once. >> but you can do that by just answering my question. was baltimore a time they should have been more of a warrior mentality when they were facing rock throwing mobs and retreating in the face of rock throwing mobs, was that a time there needed to be an engagement of the police rather than a retreat. >> they needed to use warrior tactics while v having the mind set of a guardian. >> i would turn to miss ramirez. i began thinking about our constitution and where it says in the first amendment and i'll paraphrase paraphrase congress shall make no law respecting the right of the people peaceable.

do you agree with that statement? >> yes, sir. >> and there's no prohibition and prohibits congress from make ing a law that would prohibit the people from violently assemble assembling. >> congress does have the right to restrain violence in any form. >> so, we agree that freedom of speech isn't the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre. >> correct. >> we could also agree on now i'll ask you. is it then, is it lawful or unlawful for one to pay protesters and encourage them to become violent? >> i think that's a crime. >> and i would agree with that, also. >> that part, and encourage violence, i have in my hand a

stack of tweets and stories and messages about protesters in ferguson, missouri. who now are protesting that they didn't get paid. for the work they did. and i put that word work in quotes. have you reviewed that or are you knowledgeable about this? >> no but i would say this. that at this juncture the mostful thing we could do is to try to bring the community and the police together in dialogues at the local level. >> i do understand that. that was in your testimony. and i think the panel understands it, but if you were presented with information that showed that indicated, that there was a funder for funders who have higher protesters that may have busted into places like ferguson missouri or sent to places like baltimore and we ended up watching buildings and businesses be burned and property damage being created

and some case, assault, would that be worthy of an investigation would you think by the local police force? >> yes. >> and what about by the u.s. attorney general? >> i think that they should, if there is evidence that someone were being paid to engage in violent protests and engage in violence, then that's a serious problem. >> but you wouldn't think that if they didn't say violence if they just said protest and it turned into violence, then it wouldn't be a crime. >> that's a different situation. >> i'd loick to ask sheriff clark if he could respond. >> is sir, i was a little disappointed that there weren't more aggressive prosecutions and attempts to investigate some of the behavior of some of the rioters who are captured on videotape. one of the ones that stands out was a dwroup of young individuals standing and dancing

on top of a police cruiser that had been destroyed so to speak, as if they had captured some sort of ground that's government property. in wisconsin, we have a statute enciting a riot. i think those should be used both sides. seems to be too much focus on what the police may have done you know prior to the riots breaking out. as you indicated, there's a more socially acceptable way under our first amendment to display your frustrations, your anger and it's not rioting. it's not destroying property of other people. they abandon, we saw that night what baltimore would look like without the police. with police stepping back as they did. some say retreating, so it was an ugly situation for a fwraet american city. >> thank you sheriff. thank the chairman and witnesses and yield back to balance my time. >> thank the gentlemen and recognize the gentleman from georgia. mr. johnson for five minutes.

>> thank you mr. chairman. i want to thank you and the ranking member for agreeing to hold this hearing. and i sheriff clark i heard about, read about your testimony -- astigmatic is the word i'm trying to use. please note my strong respect and support for police and law enforcement and my strong assistance that the rule of law apply to all regard redskins of whether a person is is a civilian or law enforcement. the failure to prosecute police officers to put peaceful protests and video footage of people dying by the hands of law enforcement have led us to where we are today.

while diskuzing police accountability is is an essential way to improve the relationship between the community and law enforcement, i hope that this committee will hold additional hearings that will allow us to specifically focus on grand jury reform, use of body cameras and the dj oj's transparency practices. before we witness the militarization of police in missouri, i had been working on stock militarizing law enforcement act. which prevents local police forces from receiving em raps, tanks and other weapons left over from the war and i'm very grateful and humbled that president obama on yesterday issued an executive order that virtually ends the 1033 program. and i've also introduced the grand jury reform act which calls for the use of special prosecutors and independent law enforcement agencies when there has been a police killing.

and also i've introduced the police accountability act, which would expand the doj's authority to bring charges against law enforcement officers. is sir, do you, have you heard the name arriston waiters before before? he was just a 19-year-old, unarmed black male just a typical unarmed black male down in union city. georgia, who was shot while laying on his stomach, shot twice in the back by a law enforcement officer, police officer. from union city. shot twice in the back at close range. the officer who killed mr. waiters allegedly exhibited signs of post-traumatic stress disorder. he was an afghanistan war veteran. according to the anxiety

disorders association of america, there are 40 million adults in the united states over the age of 18 who suffer from anxiety disorders. 7.7 million of those americans suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. i'm concerned about the role mental health issues play in officers using excessive force against civilians. we've talked about police officers receiving training on how to apprehend people suffering from mental illnesses but what is your department doing to make sure that officers themselves aren't suffering from mental illnesses? >> mr. chair, congressman that is one of the most difficult situations that law enforcement officers today are dealing with. the mentally ill. >> i'm saying in terms of would you agree that there must be

some out there among the 7.7 million americans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorderer, who are law enforcement officers? you would not deny that would you? >> i don't have any data to refute it. >> but would you think that there may be some cases where there are officers who are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and who are cierring currently in law enforcement? >> if i had to guess, yes, i had such a situation with one of my patrol sergeants who served in the first gulf war, i believe. and he slapped around a handcuffed prisoner. not only had him charged with a felony, he went to prison for 18 months. >> you're to be commended for that and -- >> it was a hard thing to do. >> does your department have a system of monitoring police

officers or your officers periodically just to determine whether or not they have any mental health issues that could impede their ableility to protect and serve the people? >> no, not a systemic one. we have our standard, early warning system. >> do you think it would be wise for the federal government? i note in your statement, you say that police use of force i'm quoting you, police use of forls should be scrutinized dash locally, that is does that mean you don't think that the federal government should concern itself with these issues at all? >> it's not that i don't think the federal government should concern itself. i think the federal government should observe what's going on. across the nation with all these issues. you say that it should be

scrutinized locally. does that mean to the exclusion of the federal government? >> well, if i can finish the sentence. >> the time of the gentleman has expired, but the witness is is allowed to answer the question. >> thank you. sure, it's to be scrutinized, without a doubt. >> thank you. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from pennsylvania. mr. marino, for five minutes. >> thank you. it's a pleasure to have you here today. sheriff, if you could zero in on an issue for me concerning resources. if you had the money would you hire more sheriffs deputy sheriffs and where would you put them? what would you do with them? >> yes, i would hire them. i'm in a court battle now with the county. i had to sue the county to be able to hire some more law enforcement officers. i put them in the field. based on what the data's showing where the crime's occurring, not

just the crime, but to provide a consistent, visible presence as a deterrent to crime. not just making arrests and writing citations. >> if you need any more help in that case with your superior, let me know. i'd be glad to join in and help. >> i come from a long line of law enforcement. people. and we take it very seriously and i was atn substantiate district attorney. i was a district attorney. a united states attorney. my colleague here was one of the best assistant u.s. attorneys in the countyry. and i prosecuted cases myself and i did not base my decision to prosecute cases that involved african-americans or police on color or on the police i based it on the rule of law. and it had nothing to do with who committed the crime and who didn't and what police were involved.

you stated that a difficult time choosing over law enforcement and police. i never did. and if you have a difficult time like that, you shouldn't be a prosecutor. why would you prosecute if you made that statement? >> in my particular situation, as an assistant u.s. attorney, we had not prosecuted police officers in the past. and the u.s. attorney at the time said to me do you plan to practice law as a defense attorney here in boston afterwards? >> let me reclaim my time. you know you have a step to go to if you have a complaint about prosecute ing prosecuting a case in the u.s. attorney's office. you can go from one person to the other and actually go to the justice department. you also raised the issue -- >> which we did, sir and may i say -- >> i'm asking the questions. you also raise the issue of

recusal. it's up to the district attorney. it's up to the u.s. attorney. in my state in the state courts and even federal courts there is a recusal, we looked at it seriously and i recused myself from cases and my staff. but you know it's not totally up to, you can take that step to the judge. you can petition the court as to why. you didn't mention that. and here's another thing i ran into as a prosecutor as my colleague said. it was very difficult to get young african-american males to testify against others particularly, in cases where a family member was killed. can you address that for a little bit, please? >> that is, that is one of the most important problems that needs to be addressed. and i want to talk about how we addressed it in boston. >> would you please make it

quickly, i only have a minute and a half. >> we went to the community organizations. we went to the faith-based community. and we talked to the community and we asked them why people were unwilling to come forward as witnesses. there were a myriad of causes. we set up a process in hearings. as a result we had i don't know how many cold cases that were solved through a process in which the faith-based community went out did outreach to the community, the community organizations did that and -- >> i agree with you. that's a good way to handle it, but you agree it's a problem. gl it's definitely a problem. >> it is. have you, you've had an extensive career, but have you ridden with a police officer facing a quick reaction situation? as a da, have you been on the street when a police officer had to make a split second decision that has taken the united states supreme court two years to determine what is right and

wrong? >> yes, i have been in cars where police had to make split second decisions and i will tell you, i found it very frightening. >> sure. yeah. >> and they do a job -- >> difference in a split second decision determined over a period of time, what is right and wrong and you cherry pick a lot of cases, but you know you didn't bring up the issue that the number keeps come out this 93% of the young black males, those ones that are murdered 93% are killed by young black males. why is is this happening and what can we do this change that? >> that is a serious problem, sir, but i do agree with others who have said what happens on the color of law is different from what happens privately between two private individuals. they are both problems, but they are different problems.

and when someone kills under color of law, that merits a different process. >> i think any prosecutor understands that very, very much and i yield back the time. >> time of the gentleman has expired. the gentleman from california, miss chu is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chair. you have used a new approach of policing called l.e.a.d. listen and explain with equity and dignity. could you walk us through a hypothetical situation where it has worked to deescalate a situation and tell us why it works? >> the purpose of developing the model was to simplify the principles behind procedural justice and give officers direction. in situations where it's conflict, taking the time if there is not a threat present, i want to be clear about that.

if somebody's pointing a gun at you, you don't listen and explain. you do what you have to do. but in most police interactions in the community, there is time. and if officers are reminds of the benefit of listening, that will help set that interaction going down the correct track. most police officers like myself, we like to step in and control things and we have to be reminded to listen. when people say police should treat people with respect, the most effective way to convey respect is to listen. we want to emphasize that for our officers. the other area where many officers forget is that we know the system inside out. we know how the process is going to work. we know what's going to happen next. people that we're interacting with don't know that. it's that lack of knowledge that creates another level of conflict and again, if the officer is is reminded, tell the person what they can expect, they will be more likely to cooperate. when we talk about equity, that

is simply to underscore, make sure your recognizes whatever biases you bring to the table, make sure you're making your decision on an outcome in an equitable way and leave with the person you're interacting with, with their dignity in tact and act with dignity ourself. a lot of officers will mock when we use an acronym, and i get that, but it's also a very effective way to teach specific behavior. >> talking about dignity, studies have shown people in a community care more about how they are treated by police rather than the actual outcome of a police encounter. police that may pull people over for driving offense may find that people care more about whether they were treated fairly than whether they got the ticket. but as you've acknowledged in the past empathy and patience do not necessarily come naturally for some police recruits. and something as simple as

officers having friendly, nonenforcement related conversations with community members have shown to have huge benefits in building community trust. how do we change things so that the system values these characteristics in our police? >> i think we start in the training academy by modeling that type of behavior and being very clear about that as an expectation. we also need to clarify that empathy is not the same as sympathy. empathy means you understand what the person in the other side of the interaction is experiencing. i think it starts with training. i think it was mentioned by another witness that we have to come up with appropriate measures. people will rise to those things that are measured and when we find ways to measure officers behaving in ways that convey respect and dignity, that behavior will increase. >> thank you for acknowledging the role that implicit bias might play in making the type of quick decisions police encounter

every day. research has shown even individuals who believe that everybody should be treats equally may be affected by implicit biases or sub conscious associations between people of color and a perception of aggression and crime. can you give us an example of a situation which an officer's perception about an individual might influence the way they react to that individual and how could police departments work to dismanning this dis dismanhattaning this? >> one of the prototypical examples is one sheriff clark mentioned earlier, a self-initiated stop, maybe a broken taillight. maybe not even necessarily the initiation of the stop, but how that interaction proceeds and that critical first few seconds. you know, that, it may be informed much more about i think with any of us, sort of broad categories we're placing, a new

person who we've never met with, sort of into generalized buckets and if officers don't do as training in several jurisdictions is starting to offer them instruction on, slow down the situation where possible and sort of you know, try to use very intentional decision making strategies. i think they risk, especially because they have to make these decisions. in some instances -- you know, want to make sure we're not going into their decision making. >> i yield back. >> the chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas mr. radcliffe. >> thank you, mr. chairman. although far less successful and accomplished than you mr. chairman, my other colleague ifrs also a federal prosecutor and as such, certainly believe

if enforcing the law. unfortunately, our national dialogue currently on this issue reveals a mistrust on all the sides of the issue but i appreciate your being here to talk about how we as a society can address this in a sensible careful and effective manner and i wish i had the opportunity to make inquiry to each one of you, but there are time restrictions and i don't, so i'm going to focus at least initially on the witness in the field you, sheriff clark. i'd like to first ask you, does your police department have clear policies on the use of force? >> mr. chair, congressman, yes, sir. >> do you have an opinion and i'm sure you do. as to whether or not there's a problem with the law as it currently stands as it relates

to the use of force in the country. >> no, i don't. >> that there isn't, to make it clearer officers. >> i think it's probable for congress advisory, when the mandates are coming down at the local level, i'm going to push back a little on that. >> so community policing intended to take the edge off of interactions if you will, between the police and the community that they serve. but we would agree, the definition of one that must involve conflict.

has the great potential because of human interaction. >> at the end of the day, regardless of how the officer goes about his or her job he or she has a reasonability to enforce the law, whether or not they're going it with a smile or not. >> huge responsibility. >> yesterday, the president's task force issued findings that focused on this issue of policing. i know it's a hefty document, but i was wondering if you had a chance to review and if so, what your thoughts were? >> on the 21st century project? >> yes, sir. >> yes, i did read it. i didn't like a lot of it from the beginning when the task force was put together, there were no elected sheriffs and my

colleague's a former sheriff, but no elected sheriff'sess on the panel. i didn't see a lot of representation for a two-way exchange of what life is like for the officer on the street and some police administrators there. they had one organization that represents some fraternal organization of police but that doesn't give the day-to-day example of what life is like on the street and why we have to do some of the things we do so i thought it fell a little short. recommendations were heavy on federal involvement federal control. it's not going to change the behavior of many individuals of color, who come in contact with those on the street who end up in deadly confrontations. it doesn't reach far enough to do that. >> so sheriff, what would you

like our take away to be with respect to those findings or kreks that you think aren't in there or like to make to that? >> well, one of the thipgs that is not addressed that we keep glossing over and i said we, some of the conditions that have led to the risology of the underklaas in the american ghetto where people can't find meaningful work. you have to send your kids to poor schools. kids don't have a chance to reach their god given potential to break out of the that cycle of poverty. we have to look at some of the urban policies that have been enacted at the state and federal level that continue to feed into this growth of the underclass. what we're experienceing recently, it's not the poor generally or black people generally, the it's the underclass behavior. kids growing up without fathers. school failure, failure to stay in the workforce. failure to raise your kids. father absent homes.

it doesn't have anything to do with the police, you can try to transform the police all you want, but as long as those lifestyle choices are going to continue to grow in these urban centers, you're still going to have these confrontations and when you try to fight the police and disarm the police and so forth, things aren't going end up well for you. i don't care how much more we pour into training. as if it's linear the world we live in and it's very symmetric. >> thank you for your insights and iffor your thoughtful comments and i thank all of the witnesses for being here today on this important subject. i yield back. >> thank the gentleman from texas. now, my friend from illinois. >> thank you so much. i'd like to thank the witnesses for making the presentations and i'd like to talk just a little

bit. i met with a group of young people from the phoenix military academy in chicago, white youth, hispanic hispanic, black youth. military academy. these are the best of the best. have a conversation, everybody. we should have some of those people, i mean, i think with all due respect to everybody here, we're a little too old to be having this conversation among ourselves. about the problems that the police are encountering with young people and i would simply subject we invite some of those young people those bright dynamic young people. you know what they're going to tell you? i have listened to a young black man lieutenant colonel in the phoenix military academy tell me learn he has learned how how t.o. deescalate. that almost brought tears to my eyes that this wonderful brilliant young man, dedicated to this country, graduating from his class, has to talk about deescalating. he doesn't see the police as a

source of protection. he sees it as somebody he has to learn the police have to be the adults. the children have to learn how to be adults many times and how it is they exchange with police officers. you know, we're having a conversation here. where people are talking well black people don't care about black people. nobody's made that claim here. i don't know why certain member, my colleagues here, talk about well, they're not outraged when a black person kills a black person. that's not the issue here. that's not the issue here. certainly an issue we might want to talk about, but nobody has made the claim that's a good thing. you know, that rioters are out there getting paid. nobody said here it's a good thing that rioters should be paid. i could understand when you're making a forceful argument against shotgunomeone that somebody is is sustaining, but it seems like we're talking past each other

instead of having young people. i would like for the record and for those, i know there won't be enough time. i would like for the record, mr. chairman, that these are the questions that the phoenix military academy students if i could just add this for the record. thank you so much. as a young latina jasmine, she said how can minorities feel less of a double standard with law. why does it feel like whites are treated with more respect than minorities and these are students and to everybody here understand something, i have talkeded to different groups of high school students and they alltel you the same thing in the inner city. in chicago last week, there were 45. you're right, too. 45 shootings in one weekend. did i tell my daughter don't go on the streets? no. in my neighborhood, none of those shootings happen. in the neighborhood that lewis

gutierrez lives in the shootings happen in geographical areas. when i grew up the majority of the city of chicago was white so you would expect the majority of police officers to be white, yet today when whites no longer constitute a majority, the majority of the police officers in chicago are white. is it that we're selling to everybody that only white folks want to be police officers and care about this? i think it's a fundamental problem. so we go to ferguson, where there might be two black police officers in a population that is almost 70% african-american. that kind of disconnect is going to cause -- i would think we want to talk about fundamental changes about how it is that we recruit people. maybe you could help me because in chicago, what i feel is is when i go talk to the cops in my district and i go into some of

the areas where there's more gang violence, i find it's young r cops. my dad, if he worked somewhere, my bito time he had seniority, he took the good shift. are the young police officers getting the brunt think? >> some of that is mr. chair -- >> if the police officer is like, when you join the police force, the older veterans who may have the training and experience. are they the ones in the neighborhood where there's a lot of trouble and back where you may need more veteran police officers? you get shift assignment, i agree with your assessment there. the older wiser better assignments because of collective bargaining rules. that is an issue. >> and i know you, we've gone over the time, i want to say, i hope we can have another hearing. i had a conversation with mayor rahm emmanuel. i don't know how many of you got

to hear his speech yesterday, and how he dedicated it to the city of chicago, that no police force, no government is going to take the place of a good mom and a good dad but we have to be there to make sure the parents have the resources. if we stop living even in the city of chicago, the tale of two cities, where people feel safe, and the police and community are in sync with one another. and another part where they're not. let's bring the young people. with all due respect, i think -- i'm 61 so some place i'm a senior citizen already. i call myself and say let's bring some young people they are 100% if you all know, of your future. you're not going to settle the future, until we get young people to listen to their voices voices. >> the gentleman from illinois is very young at heart. and the chair recognizes the

gentle lady miss bass. >> our subject matter today is talking about policing. but i do want to make reference, because it's come up several times about why there is an outrage when african-americans are killing african-americans, and i have to tell you that it's always very frustrated to hear this. because it's as though people are not working on a daily basis day in and day out to address these issues in neighborhoods. i started an organization 25 years ago i spent 14 years every day working in south central los angeles in the height of the crack/cocaine and bloods and crips, all that was going on. to address the crime to address homicide. there are people working in communities all over this country, but the frustration we have always felt is that it's never covered in the news. what's covered in the news is when there is an incident between the police and frankly it's new that that's even being

covered in the news what's going on in communities that's getting a lot of coverage now has been going on for years, to say that there isn't the outrage over the homicide rate is just not accurate. i spent one summer in one area where homicides were counselen freighted. we did a whole effort and we were able to go three solid months without homicides and then the resources ended. we have to go to the root causes. i don't believe it's the policeman's job, i believe it's not up to the police completely to address these problems. what has to change is the police working with the community. and unfortunately, people are fearful of the police in some of the communities. it was also as what do people in

tough neighborhoods want to see happen. they want to be safe in their homes and safe in their neighborhoods. and these issues aren't just happening in ghettos. and i think it's shameful for the communities to be referred to that way. i have a brother who lives in beverly hills. he gets pulled over by the police, stretched out on the ground and asked why he's there. i think it's well known throughout the country that african-americans can be outside of their ghettos and still have to deal with issues related to the police. why folks don't work with police? i'll give you a couple examples. i can't tell you how many people told me well, i called the police, and i called about this crack house, and the police came went to the crack house and said, miss jones down the street called and said you were selling crack here. people don't feel that the

police will keep them safe, and frankly, there's not enough resources in the community to relocate people. you want people to go and testify, and you want them to put their lives at risk. if there was more resources, then people would be much more cooperative. we had a lot of problems in l.a., we were actually able to turn the situation around with a new chief, with community based policing, we're having some of the same problems emerge again, but we had a past police chief who said when there was a spate of people who were dying because of choke holds, he said at a press conference that the reason why african-americans were dying of choke holds is because our veins were different, they collapsed quicker, we were able to get rid of that police chief, these situations can be turned around, and i listen to the testimony of miss ramirez and miss roth there are other ways

to go about policing. some of our problems are reemerging in los angeles again. but i just wanted to ask in the last couple seconds. if miss ramirez you can give examples of a couple communities that have turned the situation around, where the police department works in cooperation with community organizations. where the police department has changed their perspective from the warrior mentality over to a mentality that works in partnership with communities. and where crime has been reduced and where trust has been increased with the police department. >> the one i know best is boston, and question have decreased homicide rates decreased the number of people that we have incarcerated and crime has gone down. and the boston police department has been working with the faith based community and community groups on both issues. on issues of homicide. so if we have all these cold cases as i said earlier, how are we going to get witnesses to come forward one witness said,

i'd be happy to tell my account to someone who is not a police officer and then some of that could be used for cooperation to get a search warrant. there are many other examples in this country of policing models where homicides have gone down. there are 14 states where they've decided to did hedecarcerate. they take that money they would pay to incarcerate, $51,000 a year, taken that money and said, the system we have is too expensive, it's ineffective and we're going to use that money to invest in education to invest in treatment. those communities have saved money and crime has gone down. >> thank you. i yield back the chair now recognizes the gentleman from

louisiana. mr. richmond has been talking about it since the first day he got to richmond. >> first i'd like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a washington post article. i'll give two pinocchios to fact checking giuliani's claim that 93% of murder victims are killed by other blacks because of the relevance of the statistics. >> without objection. >> let me just start with answering a question that my colleague posed. what do we do to solve that? well, the first thing we don't do is cut pell grants and cut head start, which gives you a 9 to 1 return for your investments. we all know that education is the best path out of poverty, and the circumstances in these neighborhoods. so we could start there, which we've done every year since i've

been in congress with the budgets that we've passed. i think that that's a very good start. and another start is, to just have the conversation. i talk about it all the time. if anyone's concerned i'm here and willing to address it, and i think that as a young african-american male who grew up in the innercity, i can have a lot to offer. mr. chairman i prefer not to focus where we have differences, and i think we have many. i think we have some very similar goals. which is to keep our police officers safe, keep our constituents safe, and to provide honest services whether it's police or whether it's elected officials. people deserve honest service do you believe the make-up of the police department is similar to the community it polices?

>> i believe that. and i was asking you that, because i wanted to share some of my real life experiences as a young african-american male. and why i think it's so important. first time i was pulled over, i got home from college i was on st. charles avenue the fancy part of town in my mother's car, and i didn't have my license on me. black officer stopped, and he went through the process to get my information, ran it came back to the car and said, i see a morehouse sticker on the back of your car. you went to more house? the man can't ride your back if your back's not bent. you need to go home. i never forgot that. while i was in the legislature i saw