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illinois, for the 150th commemoration ceremony of president ab ham lincoln's funeral. then author and historian michael burlingame talks about the reg lassie of abe ham lincoln and reflects on the ceremony in springfield. this is three hours and 20 minutes. >> you're watching american history tv on c-span3. what you're looking at now, a live picture from oak ridge cemetery in springfield illinois, for the 150th anniversary of president abe ham lincoln's funeral. richard hart on the screen, joining us from the cemetery a springfield resident and an author. your book is "lincoln's springfield: the funeral of abe ham lincoln," tell us what we'll

see today. what's going to happen there behind you and all around you this afternoon? >> well thank you. well today you're going to see a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln in springfield 150 years ago. and it started on the square downtown, and it will take probably a half an hour for the procession to reach oak ridge cemetery which is on the north side of springfield, and that procession will be a reconstruction or reenactment of lincoln's actual funeral. so there will be a number of divisions with re-enactors in those divisions. you'll actually see a replication of the funeral hearse that was put together by a local funeral home. i believe you're going to see a

horse, which would have been abraham lincoln's horse bob, led by an african american, henry brown, coming into the cemetery. and then in back of me is the receiving vault at oak ridge cemetery. and it is there that lincoln's body, as well as his son willie, were placed at the time of the lincoln funeral. >> mr. hart why was president lincoln buried in sprild, illinois? >> there was his home for 20 years before he went to washington, d.c. and only a short time before he left springfield, oak ridge cemetery was created. and mary and abraham lincoln were present on the day the cemetery was dedicated and all of the speeches were made. the story is that on the way home abraham lincoln said to mary, this is where i'd like to be buried.

>> you mentioned mary todd lincoln and yet she didn't attend the funeral in springfield. he didn't leave washington, d.c. and travel with the train up to springfield. why is that? >> well, mary todd lincoln's life was one that she had to face many, many tragedies. and this was perhaps the greatest of all. her husband being assassinated next to her. and she was rightfully devastated by that. and was just not emotionally capable of making that trip back to springfield. her son robert todd lincoln was there with her and he did come to springfield for the funeral. >> we see, if you look on your screen there, some of the reenactors. might have seen a moment ago some of the tents. who are the folks in the tents and how long have they been out there camped out?

>> well i think some of them had been here since last wednesday and perhaps that's when they first came. but thursday night when i was out here, we came out after dinner and it was just a lot of the tents were up at that time. and as i say, it was a beautiful scene, there was a full moon that night or partial, i don't know if it was full, but it was beautiful. and the oak ridge cemetery gate which was the original gate into the cemetery, was lit up. and then across the road in lincoln park were the tents with the fires that they had lit for the evening. >> so we're talking with richard hart a springfield resident and expert on the subject of abraham lincoln's funeral. tell me abraham lincoln president lincoln died here in washington on april 15th.

his funeral, may 4th in springfield, illinois. what happened in that intervening period of time? what was going on in that couple of week period back in 1865? >> well, those days between the time of his assassination and his return and burial here in springfield, are somewhat the subject of this book that i have here. but it was filled with a lot of distress in the nation as to what was occurring, of course. but as far as lincoln's body, it was taken to the white house there was an autopsy. it was embalmed. it was placed in a coffin, and there were viewings there. eventually it was taken to the train station and it was placed in a car that was owned by one

of the railroads as a car for the directors of that railroad and the funeral train then left washington, d.c., and it had a number of people on that train. some of them had actually taken the train with lincoln from springfield to washington, d.c. in 1861. and the train made a very long, long journey from washington, d.c. to springfield and went through some of the major cities in the east. there were large tributes to lincoln in new york city, and the story is that teddy roosevelt watched the procession in new york city from one of the windows on i believe it was fifth avenue. the train then -- supposedly wouldn't exceed 30 miles an hour. and all of the tracks were cleared for this train.

and there was a lead train that went before it to make certain that the tracks were clear. eventually ended up in chicago and there was an enormous funeral in chicago lasting a couple of days with viewing of the body, the courthouse and then the train made an overnight journey from chicago to springfield, arriving on the morning of may 4th. and from chicago to springfield, at every crossing, in the middle of the night, there would be people gathered often with bonfires and in many instances, there were large arches that had been built over the train tracks. and they were decorated with evergreens, flowers, and even in the middle of the night, there would be hundreds and hundreds of people that would come out to

view the train. >> for our viewers a bit later in our coverage today, we do have a couple of more things we will show folks about the train. we'll take a look at the train station there in springfield and have a bit more about president lincoln's train. how many people came to springfield back in 1865 for the funeral and the events surrounding it? >> that's an amazing question and the number is not certain, but springfield at that time had a population of about 15000 people. and the estimate is that between 75 and 100,000 people came to springfield for the funeral. there were trains special trains from many of the mid western cities that came into springfield. and the people would stay on those trains for sleeping purposes. and remarkably it was the first

time that a pullman train had been used and it was a sleeping car. and because of that use during the lincoln funeral it gained acceptance by the railroads as a -- another aspect of a passenger train. so that was one of the things that came out of the lincoln funeral. >> and again looking at live pictures of springfield illinois, a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln. talking with richard hart, resident of springfield. you see some folks dressed up in uniform and costume. are these local re-enactors or people come from all over the country to participate in this event today? >> well that's a wonderful question. because i was out here two days ago. and a couple from orlando,

florida, were here, and they were dressed in period costumes that were absolutely spectacular. and they were taking each other's pictures. so i offered to take their pictures together. and then that's where i got to have this conversation with them. and they had come for this event from orlando, florida. in fact, she gave me this funeral badge. i don't know if you can see that or not, that she had made to hand out to people in springfield. since then, i've met a number of the re-enactors who are from many of the mid western states. i met a gentleman from lancaster, pennsylvania, and his re-en actment group had come out. i met a gentleman who came with his military gun on a trailer and he was from wisconsin. and so i think it's -- there's

really a kind of sub culture of re-enactors in the united states and so they have been here and are many of the people that you see in costume i think are from out of town. many of them are from springfield, but it's hard to tell where all of them -- how to divide where they're from, but it's pretty broad spectrum. >> my understanding is that you've lived in springfield for 47 years. most of your life anyway. and what is the most of the springfield area the springfield community about this re-enactment? are people excited to host this event? a lot of participation from everybody in the area? >> oh yeah. it's just remarkable. if you look at the schedule of events over the last several days and perhaps you can hear in the background, there's a band playing. there have been, i would say, at

least ten different band concerts in the last two days at the churches around springfield and these band concerts, reenactors, and the band come again, from all over the united states and they want to exhibit their abilities. so they've had band concerts. there was a symphony last evening here, the illinois symphony orchestra played a special program of lincoln music. there have been a number of lectures. this morning i spoke in the st. paul's cathedral church and it was packed. and there are -- at the edwards' home, they're having people -- they're having a re-enactment tea. and it's just a phenomenal participation by the entire

community for this event. i think that everyone recognizes the importance of lincoln in our national life and they just want to be a part of that to honor him, and to commemorate his death 150 years ago. >> there at the cemetery, you can see richard hart a springfield resident and author and we're going to let you have a chance to ask some questions or weigh in a little bit on your thoughts on this event. our phone lines, 202-748-8900 for those of you on the east or central time zone. 202-748-8901 for the mountain and pacific time zones. mr. hart i'm going to ask one now. the procession that we're waiting to make its way up to the cemetery, and the re-enactment of the actual speeches and the funeral

ceremony itself, are those historically accurate? will they be accurate representations of what took place 150 years ago? >> i believe so. i've seen the program and compared it to the program 150 years ago. and i think very much exactly the same. and so that will be very exciting to see that. >> and who were some of the notable figures that attended abraham lincoln's funeral there in springfield 150 years ago, and will those persons be portrayed today? who were the who's who at abraham lincoln's funeral? >> oh my. there were many. many of the generals of the civil war were in attendance for the funeral. in addition, there were people who had come here to participate

in the funeral. reverend simpson had come. he was the predominant, or the prominent minister in the united states at that time. a very prominent minister. and he came and he delivered the primary yuleuleeulee yule ojy for abraham. there were photographers from philadelphia, from chicago. there were reporters believe it or not, that came from the newspapers. the new york papers the washington papers. and one of the gentlemen that came who was a relatively young reporter at that time, went on to found the associated press. many of the photographs that these photographers took while here in springfield are still in existence, and there's actually

an exhibit in springfield that has all those photographs. >> so after abraham lincoln's assassination, andrew johnson, correct, became president? >> yes. >> and did he attend the funeral? >> no, he did not. >> and why not? >> well, i think that you have to remember that in addition to this funeral transpiring at that time, within a period of 90 days in american history you had the congress passing the 13th amendment, freeing the slaves had to be approved by the states, and that wasn't done until december of that year. but that occurred. you have lincoln delivering his second inaugural address, which is a masterpiece. and then you have lincoln delivering a speech saying that he believed that certain black men should be allowed to vote. you had general robert e. lee

surrendering to grant and bringing about the closing of the civil war, and the country was euphoric after that. and then within a matter of a week, you have lincoln assassinated. and everybody went into extreme mourning. and so because of that there were -- there was a lot of uncertainty about the government and what was going to happen. so many of the government people, i think, just stayed in washington. there was also the search for john wilks booth and any of the conspirators that had participated in the murder. and that took front page on many newspapers. so you had a variety of things that were occurring. the people that came to springfield, and they were numerous from out of springfield and were high up but the president -- the successor to lincoln did not attend. >> as we approach 3:00 here on the east coast 2:00 your time

in illinois, richard let's take our first caller, angela from little rock. hi there you're on c-span3, go ahead. >> hello, i just have a general question. >> hello angela. >> caller: hello. i just have a general question. >> i don't know if we have angela. while we work on that -- are you there? >> caller: hello? >> all right, no angela. let me ask -- >> i'm sorry? >> all right, we're going to work on our phone call there. and as we try and get that put together, let me ask you another question, richard hart, while we're there. you've got that procession making its way up. what would be the accuracy of some of the costumes we're seeing? we're seeing union soldiers there's a woman there in -- are these accurate period costumes

that these re-en actors are wearing? >> absolutely. they are very, very accurate and the lady is walking toward what i think you had on the screen before, and that is the original gate to oak ridge cemetery. and a year ago, that did not exist. and where we are sitting this afternoon and where that lady is walking was pretty much a field of weeds and bram bell. if you look in the background there, you see the oak ridge cemetery gate, that was re-created this year, based on photographs of the period. and it's an absolutely wonderful reconstruction. and it was dedicated in december of last year. and it's through those gates that the procession will come. and it was done quite frankly because of this event today. but it will remain and be a part of the cemetery.

and it connects to lincoln park which is immediately to the east, and so it will become a part of this total neighborhood and the people in the neighborhood will be able to use it as a way to get into the cemetery. and then what you're looking at now is across the street to the east of that sign, where you actually see the re-en actor tents, and the encampment there and they are in absolute accurate costumes. i mean, they are fanatics about this about every aspect of not only their costumes but their tents, the flags the food they eat, the bedding they have, everything is a re-creation of the period that they represent. and that's what i was telling the other evening when we came out here. it was absolutely beautiful, the white tents, the moonlight was

hitting them. they had fires going. and it was really something. and you see now people walking on the sidewalk from that entrance. >> all right, we'll try one more time with the phone calls. see if we can get bob from tulsa, oklahoma, on with us and with your guest in springfield. bob, go ahead, you're on c-span3. >> caller: okay, thank you. mr. hart my question is regarding the lincoln children. are they interred in the tomb? and also, i understand that robert lincoln was at the final interment of abraham lincoln, is he buried there? >> okay, thank you for that question. yes, the children are buried there. except for robert. and robert todd lincoln, by all accounts, wished to be buried there, but he was survived by his wife, and she thought that he deserved his own separate

identity and monument. so he's buried in washington, d.c. and it's very interesting. before he died, his son tom died in england and was brought back to the united states and was actually buried with his grandfather abraham. when robert died, tom was taken out of the cemetery and taken back to washington to be buried with his father. so to answer your question robert todd lincoln is not buried here. all of the other family members are. and robert todd is buried in washington, d.c. >> let's take another call. we'll go to boise idaho, and it's casey. hi there, you're on with richard hart if springfield, illinois. go ahead. >> caller: good afternoon on this very sad memorial day.

mr. hart, i had another question about robert todd lincoln. how did he get to the cemetery? because i thought i read somewhere that he was staying a couple of days in washington to console his mother and then headed out for the interment. >> you're absolutely correct. and this is one of the very interesting things that i found when i was doing the research for the book on the funeral in springfield. robert todd lincoln apparently did not intend to have come to springfield for his father's funeral. david davis, who was a supreme court justice and had ridden the circuit and been the judge of the circuit here in illinois where lincoln practiced law, went to the white house immediately upon the death of lincoln and assembled all of his letters and documents took them with him back to bloomington but he stopped in chicago for a

memorial to lincoln by the chicago bar association. after that meeting, he sent a telegram which i found, to robert todd lincoln and i'll paraphrase it but it basically said robert, it is imperative that you come to springfield. after talking to all of your father's friends here in illinois, to a man, they said that if you did not that you would regret it for the rest of your life. i have prepared for a train to take you and you should make preparations to come immediately. well, of course after that kind of admonition from david davis, robert got on the train and did come to springfield. he stayed here for several days at least after the funeral. he selected the spot and sent the selection to his mother,

where eventually the monument would be constructed, which is right in back of me on top of the hill. above the receiving vault. and perhaps you'll be able to see that a little later on. >> once again, we are live here on c-span3, american history tv springfield, illinois, the reenactment of president abraham lincoln's funeral and making some room for your phone calls. again, those numbers, if you're in the east, call 202-748-8900. in you're mountain or pacific time zone, 202-748-8901. we'll go to perry idaho, is that right? with jeff, hi jeff, go ahead, you're on with our guest. >> caller: thank you for this awesome program today. i was born and raised just 30 miles from springfield, a little town. my question for mr. hart is

what if any role did abraham lincoln's former law partner william herndon play in the funeral? >> that's a very interesting question. william herndon, who was lincoln's law partner at the time he left springfield, was a -- there was a love-hate relationship. lincoln loved him and mary todd lincoln hated him. herndon played some role, but nothing significant in the funeral. i found it curious myself, and when i was doing this research that he did not play a larger part. some of the other towns folks played a much larger part in arranging for the funeral and making the decisions about what

was to be done in planning the funeral. herndon really wasn't very much a part of that. and i don't know if people know about the controversy as to where in springfield lincoln was to be buried. the local people that were his relatives and friends all wanted him to be buried in the center of springfield on what is now the site of the illinois state capital. at the time it was a private residence residence on a hill and it was kind of a high ground. these men and the city of springfield bought the property and had a vault built within the period between the time of the death of lincoln and his arrival in springfield. mary lincoln very much did not want that to occur. and she threatened to remove him

from springfield, or not allow him to be carried to springfield if that was done. she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge cemetery. and her wishes went out. >> all right, we'll move on we'll take a call now from boca raton, florida. terry, go ahead, you're on the air. >> caller: i'd like to thank c-span3 for this program. as a retired military officer and a history teacher of american history, my question for mr. hart is, i understand that there were -- after he was placed in the tomb, that there was attempts to steal the body, and i was told that he'd actually been moved out of there and placed in the caretakers' and buried elsewhere until these possible threats were taken care of and then he was later re-interd back in.

so i understand that for a period of time people were visiting the tomb and actually the body may not have been there. so i'd like to find out from mr. hart how accurate that s please. >> well, that's very interesting. we're getting a little far past the time of the actual funeral. and so just to kind recount, where he was initially placed was the receiving vault. ask and that receiving vault was for general use when people could not be buried immediately. so it wasn't just for lincoln. between the time he was buried in may and december of 1865, there was a vault built on the back -- on the side of this hill and he and willie were moved into that vault in december of 1865. there was then a lincoln monument association formed and they picked the site, as i said

before robert todd was involved in that, on the top of the hill in wackback of me. and it was there that they built the first monument. and while that -- it was from that monument, and you're seeing it now on the screen. this is where lincoln is buried today. but that is the site of the construction of the lincoln monument. it was redone i don't remember the exact dates. and after it was redone, this is the final monument. there were attempts to steal his body. and it was almost like a mutt and jeff show as far as the people that were involved. they failed to do it. but because of that threat or possibility of lincoln's body being stolen the final interment of lincoln was that a

hole was dug his body was placed into it, and then concrete was poured. and so he now lies in that tomb in back of me but he's under many feet of concrete. sometime you should research or go and ask about the number of times that lincoln was actually exhumed and then reburied. it's a number of them. and you're absolutely right there may have been a period when people were in the tomb looking at what they thought to be the final burial site of lincoln, when he was not in that actual site. he might have been somewhere within that tomb. >> we'll move on with more calls for our guest richard hart. we'll go to chicago, illinois, with melled ony. you're on c-span3. >> caller: hello how are you? >> fine, how are you? >> caller: i'm fine. what i wanted to know, i was

sitting here listening, you know watching the events on tv and everything and one question just happened to come to my mind. like i know by him being the president and him being the president and all, i can't really remember if he was like basically, you know in the war or the military or anything, but i was just wondering, was there at any time, any thought of him having him buried at arlington national cemetery? you know, i was just kind of wondering about that. >> oh, yes. as far as lincoln's actual military record. he was in the black hawk war in springfield back in the 1830s, i guess, and he was a captain. but then obviously as commander in chief.

he would be buried in arlington. >> i don't have any suggestion he was, i'm not certain as to when arlington came into existence. there was talk of the possibility of burying him in the capitol building in the vault that had been planned for george washington. that was not done. his body did lie in state in the capitol. but i think the only place i know of that was considered in addition to springfield was washington, d.c.. and perhaps chicago. there was some talk of that, i think it was part of the back and forth between mary lincoln and the springfield people over where he was going to be buried in springfield. i believe at some point she said, well we'll take him to chicago and bury him there. i'm not certain that was very

serious, that's a very good question about the arlington i don't -- that was not considered -- >> all right we're going to move forward and get one more call in right now, we'll go to fredericksburg, virginia it's bobby for richard heart, go ahead, bobby. >> i'm sitting here with tears in my eyes. because my mother is in oak ridge cemetery. she was buried there in 1982. that was the first time i had ever been out there. i did get to see the vault which was open at that time the new one 37 i saw the old vault. i wonder if you're going to talk about the different places where he was. i remember a documentary on c-span about the old vault and how these people came in the middle of the night thinking they were going to rob his body and take it away. i wondered if you would talk about that where he is now is

beautiful. i did go in there, my mother is there. it's quaint and interesting, and i wanted you to tell us about that. >> are you asking about where he will be buried today? or where he was buried 150 years ago? >> it's low to the ground and it's -- i remember picturing it in my mind. it was white at the hill. was that what they called it? the receiving vault? >> it's right in back of me and i don't know if the camera can show it or not. but i'm sitting on the other side of the road opposite the receiving vault. and that was what i was talking about earlier when i said it was for general -- can you see it there now? can you see the receiving vault? and there's an angle shot of it i believe.

there you are. can you see that? >> the caller's not there, but we can see it, richard. >> okay. that is the receiving vault. and as i said that was built by the cemetery way in advance of lincoln's death. and it was used basically, to hold bodies until the ground might thaw and they could dig a grave or where the people hadn't decided where they were going to bury somebody. they would put them in the receiving vault until the decisions or conditions would allow burial. it was almost fortuitous that it was there, and that lincoln's body was brought there together with willie's his son who had died in washington. they were both placed in that receiving vault may 4th 1865, and then they were moved into the vault further up on the hill

that was built 37 and they were moved in december of 1865. further up on the hill, you'll see the actual monument that's there today. and that was built in later years. so -- and as far as the stealing of the body, i don't think it was done while it was either the receiving vault or the vault on the hill. it was later on. and i claim no expertise in that area of history. so i think there's some good books out there, though, that you might look into that might describe the stealing of lincoln's body or the attempt to steal it. >> again we're live as you can see a beautiful afternoon in springfield, illinois the oak ridge cemetery, a live re-enactment today of the funeral ceremony for president

abraham lincoln, the 150th anniversary of that event. we're going do carry the entire re-created funeral here on c-span3 for you. our guest is richard hart he's been sharing some of his expertise on this subject as we wait for some of the folks dressed up in the funeral procession to make their way up to the cemetery. let's take you to the town of elgin, illinois where david cloak of cloak construction has been build inging a replica of the train car that carried lincoln to his burial 150 years ago. >> he never rode in it when he was alive. it was pretty opulent he was a common man, he didn't want to ride in this car. he had soldiers dying everywhere, he thought this was too fancy to ride in while the war was on.

he was supposed to look at this car the day he died, april 15th of course, he didn't make that date. it was built as a private car for him by the military in alexandria, virginia, as a filler job, to keep the shops busy. i still don't understand how they did that, because with all the war effort and everything, they were -- i would have thought they would have been busy. they managed to build this car. they're not sure he ordered the car, they thought stanton did. after his death they converted it to the funeral car to haul his body back to springfield. >> what happened to the original trail after the funeral in 1865. >> union pacific actually owned it, and dr. rand owned it and used it for a business car. and he owned it for a while, and sold it to a railroad in colorado. and then they ended up buying the railroad back they ended up with the car again. then they sold it to some man

that took it on tour it was in st. louis, i believe. a man had bought it, and he was going to take it to minnesota and build a building to put it in, it was sitting on the site in minneapolis, and kids started a prairie fire, and it got burned in minneapolis in 1911. this was a really fancy car for a time it would have been like the air force one of its day. as you can see, it's pretty well decorated. it's going to be a beautiful reproduction of the car, as close as we can get. we think we're about 95% accurate. we've had a lot of good volunteers on board to take care of the woodwork and upholstery. i built two period locomotives, i have a 1968 locomotive that i built from scratch. and we built another one for another group. after that was over, i always wanted to build a car and what

better car to build. the only one that was ever made like this, and the only one made by the government or owned by the government. they leased their cars. i was talking to some friends in california, and we talked about building a car, and we kind of kicked it around and decided to build the lincoln funeral car it was an historic car. it's going to go on and be an educational tool. there are a lot of people that will get to see this car and see what it was like in 1864 to ride in what the railroad cars looked like, they were pretty nice. as you can see. >> how long have you been working on this project? >> probably all together about 5 years. three and -- we were talking about it last night and when we laid the floorboards after the frame was built was last march i think we've done pretty well. this was -- well, this would

have been a pilot room at one time. this is where willie's coffin was. he was on this end, mr. lincoln was on the other end. we're trying to create the funeral end, president lincoln's end would be the other end. we'll dick rate that. the rest of the car we'll kind of leave that as it would have been before the funeral as it was decorated for him. we don't really have any pictures of the car, but we have a lot of description of what the car was. someone had the foresight to interview people that worked on the car before they passed away. i think it was in the '20s. >> and what was the central room? >> that would have been his state room or bedroom. we think, we're pretty sure there's not a lot of description about it but we kind of decorated it like the period of the period. >> what are some of the pieces that are in that room? >> we put a bed in it is a period bed.

we had a lady come on board that's really into history, she's a re-enactor, she bought this furniture and had it redone. we don't know if it's exactly right. it's period furniture, we know that but what was in here, it's lost to history. >> the third room will be more designed as his funeral room where his coffin will be with actually two chairs which actually came off a slavery plantation, they were there to guard the coffin. we'll have them set up on either side and then we'll also have the black crepe draped on the curtains. the carpeting the exact same company that made the carpeting for lincoln's funeral house also made this carpeting. it's made out of wool. it's completely an 18th century period carpeting which was made on a loom. and they had to hand stitch some

of the fabric together. we went with this color because in the descriptions, they talked about forest green, crimson rose rosettes, green leather. that's how we came up with this color. >> there were 26 states in the union when mr. lincoln died. we put all of the 26 even the southern states. we figured he won all of it. these lamps we had made in california, i met him last july and that's what he does. he made lamps for the movie industry, we re-created the lamps from the descriptions we have, and the period. the etching on the windows we knew that from the original window they found, the guy in minneapolis has. we're able to get that etching. so that's correct. we had a guy in tucson that's probably the foremost expert on this car, he built seven models,

he's our technical adviser. he doesn't have a lot of detail on the inside of the car but on the outside and he was instrumental in getting the color. several of the windows that survived the windows up here, that are actually, there's a man in minnesota that owns one and they took it to a lab and had a paint analysis on it. we knew the inside was white, offwhite. they call it zinc white in the book, that's an old terminology. we have a lot of pictures of the outside of the car in harrisburg and new york there's quite a few pictures of the outside. we think we nailed the bunting and -- there's supposed to be a lot more striping and stuff on the car. our funding has been a little low for that. gold leaf is not cheap. >> the railings are different on each end. we have a full railing and this end with the door which was

actually hand made by blacksmiths. which was really interesting to see. on the other end, we do not have the full set railing that's the end they used to roll the coffin in and out of that doorway. >> the trucks, they're brought up to modern specifications they're all steel frames. back in the day they would have been a wood frame truck, they would have a dual gauge wheel, which derailed every time they went through a switch. that was not a good idea and it fell out of favor quickly. besides that after the war, they built everything with standard gauge which was mr. lincoln's idea also. he signed a deal that american railroads would be standard gauge. he wanted to die the east and west together, he wanted to tie california to the union, and that was -- he signed the trans continental railroad act also. he did a lot of things for this country that people don't realize.

>> the real significance is, we really want to re-create history. it's a once in a lifetime project. we want to educate people, especially the youngest generation and really how people traveled back then. and lincoln was just a magnificent man, he had a great vision, when he decided to sign the railroad act and he brought the central pacific together, so we had railroad tracks across the country, that's really what made our country grow. that's what made america america. so lincoln had a wonderful vision. we're kind of on route to salute lincoln now, it's the 150th anniversary, we're passionate about the project, and about lincoln himself. it was lincoln who actually inspired dave to build the locomotive engine 37 with that, he realized the 150th anniversary was right around the

corner, he felt the need to build this. he felt like this generation needed to make this happen for the 150th anniversary. >> live again here from springfield, illinois, on american history tv here on c-span3. the re-enactment, 150 years later of president abraham lincoln's funeral. we've been waiting for the reenacters, we're told some 1,000 or so reenacters participating in the events today making their way up this road toward the cemetery with us, all afternoon. all afternoon our gift has been richard hart who is there, richard, i see you're wearing your black. it's not really an arm band. it's a ribbon kind of on your suit lapel. what is that? and is that historically accurate? >> i'm not -- i don't know if it's historically accurate, i

believe it is. a lady gave that to me yesterday yesterday. and so i told her i'd wear it today. it's -- there are a number of people out here that have these ribbons, they're accurate. historically there were a number of these ribbons that were made some people still have them and they're on exhibit in some of the museums. >> richard, we can start to see there, i think you can see it there as well on your monitor, the procession making its way up the street. can you tell us a bit about what we're seeing? >> well, can you hear the bell ringing? >> we sure can. >> can you hear -- >> that's the bell from the old tower here in the cemetery. and it was rung -- i don't think it was here at the time. it's being rung to announce the

entrance of the procession into oak ridge cemetery. so, you're now seeing one of the first divisions. they're marching they're all in full uniform. and they are coming in very slowly slowly. i lost it. i lost the hookup. >> we're going to let you find the hookup there richard as you do that we watch this procession very solemnly the reenacters making their way up the street. let's watch and listen here on c-span3

c-span3. >> sure. [ bells tolling ] >> i can see a little more now. it looks as if the first part of this is a military band walking very slowly. i don't know who the lady is in front here she's certainly not

a proper military gear. you can see their instruments and their -- of the period and then directly in back of them is one of the regiments. they're walking down what is known as first street. and it's somewhat of a hill that they'll come down into the valley and then they will come through the gate that we talked about earlier which was the original gate into oak ridge cemetery. you see the gate and now it's being opened. you can see the tents where the reenacters stayed. >> were funeral processions like

this common occurrence for citizens. was this very unusual or very unique to abraham lincoln. >> i think the victorian customs were much more elaborate than what we have today. i think that's conceded that this was the ultimate funeral of all times, it's -- in history as far as victorian funerals, it was the ultimate. in victorian funerals, also i believe it was the history of mankind. i think over time -- i don't know how many millions of people viewed the train and his body as it came back to springfield, and as i said, there were probably 100 visitors in springfield for the funeral. >> and would those visitors have lined this route we're looking at now? would they have been lined up watching this procession?

>> they would have. they would have and they would have been in this valley where i'm sitting across from the receiving vault. and they were divided into divisions. the people that marched in this procession, and it was by their military unit. there were may sonic divisions. there were clergy divisions. there were lawyer divisions that, and it just went on and on. the official order of the procession is very interesting to read as far as enumerating all these different institutions and military routes. >> i want to interrupt you. we saw some of the military reenacter reenacters doing the hoosah. is that a common custom the military would do at an event

like this? >> i believe so, they're now entering the gate, can you see that i believe. they're just now coming through the gate. you can see them, it's just the drum, i believe, i don't believe they're playing any instruments, it's just a slow drum beat. do you see them? >> let's watch and listen as this procession makes its way into the cemetery. >> here is the -- this is the hearse that you see now. >> what are those things on the top of the hearse? this hearse was loaned to the

city of springfield who was a funeral director in st. louis. this was the hearse of all hearses that's been reconstruct reconstructed by the family here in springfield in great detail and great accuracy by veterans. and i believe they're here today and they've done an absolutely outstanding job of detail and accuracy. i believe those are ostrich plumes you can see on the hearse. and the horse ss, i believe some of these horses are from the amish, which are around sullivan, illinois. and they have these workhorses. i believe that these are they. they lease them out for this

occasion occasion. the first part of the procession is now approaching the receiving vault. and you might perhaps not hear the drum beat. just a slow pace.

♪ >> the hearse has now stopped awaiting -- [ bells tolling ] >> richard, general joseph hooker was the marshall in chief. can you tell us who he was historically, and why was he the major general. >> very good question, i had lunch today with michael burlingame who's a lincoln

scholar and knows just about everything about the civil war. i ask him that very question. i did not know, and he said he did not know either. hooker had a rather interesting career in the united states military. both up and down. and had been both successful and also lost several battles. but he was in charge of this to springfield. the military aspects of it he was in charge of this procession procession. he was very fond of the women, and that's how the name hooker got attached to certain aspects of it. now, you're seeing the

beautiful, beautiful hearse. there's six horses pulling that. absolutely gorgeous. and the military in back of me are again drums beating at a slow drum beat. you can see the instruments perhaps of the band. and you're looking now at the hearse as it begins to make its approach into the gate. >> richard, what about as we can see there in the hearse, the coffin, that is a re-creation obviously of the actual coffin of abraham lincoln. was there something special i assume -- a specially made coffin for the president? >> it was and it is a group of

people that did an amazing amount of research for this occasion. it's been on display. they've done a wonderful job. here comes the rev rant henry brown with the horse bob. you see the reverend he's a black man, he worked for the lincolns, he was living in quincy he came to springfield to lead lincoln's horse in the funeral. and you can see that. that's very moving. in back of me now, the soldiers have lined up in front of the

receiving vault awaiting the approach of the carriage. and you can see the pallbearers lined up in back walking with the hearse. many of those pallbearers are zen dents of the original pallbearers at the time of the burial. one of them is robert stewart, his great great grandfather was john todd stewart who was the first law partner of abraham lincoln, he is in the procession today today. >> now the carriage is approaching the receiving vault,

it's become very quiet. and you can see the pallbearers walking in back with a white sash sash. >> the hearse is now approaching the receiving vault. it's about to stop. it has stopped.

>> richard what division is this that we've been watching. which is closest to the hearse? >> i'm not exactly certain. there are many divisions, many of them came from camp butler which is a union camp just east of springfield many of these are units, the wisconsin brigade iron brigade. they're pulling the hearse off to the side.

the ostrich plumes we referred to earlier. was that a common symbol of mourning in the victorian era? >> i believe it was, but i don't think anything approach eded this carriage. this carriage was probably the pin ultimate. >> 150 years ago, were there foreign dignitaries present as well in springfield? >> i'm sorry when did you ask when? >> yeah during the funeral 150 years ago, were foreign dignitaries present as well in springfield. >> oh, yes, i think one of the callers had asked that earlier,

my book lists all the various people that were here, there were probably 20 generals from the civil war. david davis. who was a supreme court justice, and there were just many people. the president, obviously was not here. there were a number of dignitaries and a number of dignitaries that came within the weeks after the burial. >> that was my question given the difficulty in travel and communications 150 years ago, if any europeans or anyone from outside the united states was able to arrive in springfield in time, president lincoln dying may 14th. >> i'm not aware of any. yes. >> i'm not aware of any kind of diplomatic, foreign

representatives or any europeans that may have come for the funeral. i'm not aware of that. it was -- i will say this. at the end of the funeral procession in the original order of proceedings. it was the colored people and others. and as this came into oak ridge cemetery on the north side of springfield there were assembled approximately 10,000 african-americans to pay their respects. >> so we're looking at some of these divisions and we have the list here, i'll share some of those with you, richard. you may not have that in front of you. the first division was headed up by the march shall in chief major general joseph hooker. >> oh, yeah. >> the second division was the military not assigned to other units. individual soldiers and retired military. the third division had the

pallbearers around the hearse, the family members and carriages. fourth division was the congressional delegation and the governors. fifth division members of local governments. the sixth division members of christian sanitary commissions and similar organizations. aid societies and delegations from universities and colleges. the 7th division members of social organizations like the free masons and local fire companies. and the eighth division would have been the citizens at large. that was the way they lined them up 150 years ago. i assume they're re-creating that to some extent today in this re-creation? >> yes not as fully as it was at this time. the original procession, 150

years ago, i believe was much larger than we've seen today. >> you can see some of the fire company there in period costumes. >> there's a great photograph of the fire company in downtown springfield right before they left on the procession. it's a wonderful photograph. >> it's interesting, you see the sash on that gentleman. different sashes had different meanings, and the color would mean something or the way that

they were draped would mean something. and -- so that was a way of identifying. and as you can see, many of the people have the funeral medallion on as i have on my coat this afternoon. these are people that are dressed as reenacters. and notice that nun of them wear black. do you know why that is? >> at that time only the family of the deceased was dressed in black. and you were not supposed to dress in black if you were not a member of the family. >> i assume that applied more to the ladies than the gentlemen. that would have been their every day wear i assume?

>> exactly. >> we're watching again, with richard heart, who is there in springfield, illinois, the re-enactment of the funeral procession of president abraham lincoln lincoln. when the procession -- >> there's the -- >> i was going to say, when the processionists got themselves all the way in, we see them moving the coffin now, then it would be a re-enactment of the ceremony as well as the oratory. let's watch this the soldiers moving the coffin of the president.

>> you see the umbrellas there all the photographs of the funeral in 1865 they're just a mass of umbrellas, because of the heat of the day, just like today today.

again, a live picture on your screen there, from springfield, illinois. this is a re-creation of the funeral of abraham lincoln which took place some 150 years ago this weekend. you see reenacters there in the period appropriate uniforms of the union army. you're hearing the voice as well of richard heart an expert on the subject of the funeral of abraham lincoln. and your book is called what? >> the funeral of abraham lincoln, may 3rd and 4th 1965.

>> how long did it take you to research all of this for that book and to put that together. how long after you've been interested in this particular event in the life of, the history of abraham lincoln. >> at least the last three years, i collected photographs of 19th century springfield for some time. i've had a number of photographs in the funeral of 1865. i knew this funeral was coming up, i got interested in it i never was before. i know it was a boring topic, but it's absolutely fascinating the whole story from the time of the assassination to the time of the burial. it's an incredible story. so that's -- it took me about three years. >> in the event capturing the imagination of many others. are the reenacters all these people we see in the period costumes, are those costumes

something at their own expense, they spend their own money buying and assembling those outfits? >> yes, yes, it is. and it can become very expensive not only the outfits and the costumes, but the military equipment, guns and swords and all of the other outfitting for a military person, they buy. there are events where they go and they'll be a huge place to buy things for reenacters. it can become a very expensive hobby hobby. but there seems to be great enjoyment in doing it, great camaraderie among the participants in these. one of them told me you see us perform during the day. but our camps at night are

just -- it's like las vegas. what happens in those camps has to stay in those camps. it's -- they say they have a lot of fun. >> the body is now being taken around for viewing, i guess. and this is the coffin that you mentioned earlier in which you can get a better view of now. it was very elaborate and beautiful. and, of course, the flowers on top every town that the train went through it seemed that there were enormous bouquets of

flowers that would be offered. some of them were put on the outside of the train. just an outpouring of floral tributes. >> as we approach the actual

re-creation, richard of the ceremony, we're talking to richard heart about this re-creation, re-enactment of president lincoln's funeral. what sort of clergy involvement was there, was there a denominational ceremony of any sort? what can you tell us about that? >> well william simpson who was the minister he was the principle speaker i believe he was methodist. there were other ministers who either red psalms or other religious passages, and the music was -- some of it was very traditional music for funerals there were a number of musical pieces that were written for the

funeral. and so it was a long -- it seems to me it was a long funeral service with -- i don't know if you would call it nondenominational. it was christian, i think simply because the people that spoke were christian ministers. lincoln never joined a church. his wife mary belonged to the first presbyterian church in springfield but lincoln had heard simpson and had thought he was just an outstanding minister. the people here now are assembling before the large stage that has been erected. that would not have been there

at the time of the actual funeral. this, i think, is done so people can all hear and see here today. there is a large stage it has a lectern with an abraham lincoln medallion on the front of it and flowers and different plants and one of the regiments is lined up in front of the stage now, and the coffin is on a black table -- a table cloth with a black table cloth over it. it's sitting there you can see it now. and then behind that and toward the other hill here there are symbols -- people in period dress men some of them in top hats ladies as i said all in

dresses other than black. some of them have parasols and umbrellas. the flow of the people extends from here in the valley as far as i can see up the hill in back. people are standing and then behind the vault on the hill going up to lincoln's tomb. this would have been very similar to the pictures that are now in -- still exist of the way people were positioned at that time. as i say, this stage is not something that was there in 1865, but perhaps everyone will get to be able to better see and hear. >> richard -- >> there's also a big screen tv outdoor television up here for

everybody to see what's going on. >> well, let's ask that question, in 1865 springfield illinois had a population of -- >> the oak trees in this cemetery are outstanding, richard, can you hear me? i was going to ask you in 1865. >> probably the best example of midwest oaks in illinois. the number of oaks and they have been trimmed for this occasion, and we had a drought several years ago, some of the oaks were taken down within the last week by volunteers. the wood has been dated -- the trees have been dated back to the lincoln era, they're saving the tree wood and making that into mementos for people who visit oak ridge and want to have such a memento.

>> as you can see here on c-span3, the re-enactment of the ceremony about abraham lincoln's funeral, looks like it's about to get underway. we're going to thank our guest there in springfield richard hart for being with us all afternoon and offering his insight insight. this is american history tv on c-span 3 as you can see this re-enactment on a beautiful spring day in springfield, well underway, and we will bring it to you here now in its entirety. when we're done with this -- when the funeral re-enactment itself is done, we'll have a chance for you to talk to a historian, and we'll take more of your phone call ss.

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[crying baby]

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♪ mouz muse.

good afternoon. thank you for being here to be part of this solemn assembly. as we do those things that are necessary for president lincoln. at this time i would like to introduce to you lynn wool who will be portraying reverend albert hale.

>> let us pray. father of heaven, we acknowledge thee as the author of our being and the giver of every good and perfect gift. thou givest life and takest away. the lives of men and the lives of nations are in thy hands. we bow down today believing with sub missive hearts we may acknowledge thee in the serious thoughts that press upon the millions today. we thank thee that thou givest to this nation thy servant so mysteriously and maliciously taken from us. we thank thee father in heaven that he was raised to a position of power and authority that through him thou has led them through storm and strife to the present and hopeful condition of our public affairs.

we mourn before thee our hearts bow in grief and sorrow. we remember the bereaved widow and family. we pray that in this honor, this hour of their trial, god give to them those blessings that they need and so open the fountains of divine consolation that they in their grief shall make this event not only a sorrow, but under god the opening day of numberless blessings. to thee we commit them and all relatives who mourn in consequence to this distressing event and to thee we commit the people of the city and of the state in which it has grown up whose affection he holds today in his death stronger than in the most powerful moment of his life. merciful god bless us and help us and cherish the memory of his life, and the worth of the high example he has shown us.

we do pray and bee each thee the high purpose for which he lived may be carriried to a completion. and oh god thank thee for that other example which you set us in a steadyadherence to truth, a love of freedom and the opposition to wrong injustice and slavery. and we pray that god will grant that the policy of our government touching these great issues may be successfully carried through when not a slave shall clank his shackles in the land and not a soul be found that will not rejoice in his glory and the reigning power in the hearts of the nation. oh, god our father, give us grace and wisdom to him who is called to occupy the chair of state. give unto him humility, give him direction to his steps and a love of rightousness.

our father in heaven, we pray thee on the millions that have come out of bondage remember them. and our brother who was taken from us. may all the people unite in their prayers their patience, their self denial, so that these may come up and take their place in the nation as citizens. rejoiceing in newborn privileges and the rights which god gave and which man cannot rightfully take away. father in heaven, we ask thy blessings on all those that are endeavoring to secure the public interest against the hands of an assassin and let think justice and power speedily rid the nation of those lusts out of which all these evils arise. the union rise up from this great trial and become a light

among nations of earth in all future time. father in heaven, thou art just and holy in all thy ways. we are sinful and unworthy of our privileges not rewarding us according to our iniquities, hear us and aid us and accept through our christ, our redeemer, through with the father and the holy spirit is glory ever lasting, amen.

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benjamin cole, will be portraying the doctor. a reading from job, chapter 19. have pity upon me have pity upon me, oh, ye my friends. for the hand of god has touched me. why do ye persecute me as god and are not satisfied with my

flesh. oh, that my words were now written. oh, that they were printed in a book. that they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock forever. for i know that my redeemer liveth and he stand on the latter day upon the earth. and though after my skin, worms destroy this body, yet in the flesh, i shall see god, who i shall see for myself and mine eyes shall behold and not another, though my rains be consumed within me. the word of the lord. ♪ ♪

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♪ in thee i live in thee i lye ♪ ♪ content ♪ chief justice frank j williams rhode island supreme court retired will portray reverend dr. matthew simpson. fellow citizens of illinois and of many parts of our entire nation. near the capitol of this large and growing state of illinois in the midst of this beautiful

grove, and at the vault which is about to receive the remains of our fallen chieftain we gather to pay a respectful tribute and shed tears of sorrow for him. a little more than four years ago, he left his plain and quiet home exchanging parting words with friends who gathered around him. he spoke of the pain of parting from the place where he had lived for a quarter of a century. where his children had been born and where he enjoyed the company of his many friends. as he left, he made an ernest request in the hearing of some who are present at this hour. that he was about to take on the responsibilities which he believed to be greater than any which had fallen upon any man since the days of washington. people would offer up prayers that god would aid and sustain

him in the work. he left your quiet city. but as he went snares were in waiting for the chief magistrate. he escaped the dangers on the way to washington only on through thevigilence so that tragedy was suspended for four years. how different the occasion which witnessed his departure from that which witnessed his return? doubtless. you expected to take him by the hand and feel his warm grasp and to see his tall form walking among you. but he was never able to return until he came with lips mute and silent. the frame enc onoffined and a

weeping nation following as his mourners. there's been other mornings where kings and warriors have fallen, but never has there been such mourning that has companied this funeral pro session of our loved one who now sleeps among us. tears fill the eyes of sun burnt faces. strong menace they clasp the hands of their friends were not abe to find words to express grief. women and even children felt deep sorrow the nation stood still. men left their plows in the fields, the hum of factories ceased, and the sound of the hammer was not heard. merchants closed their doors in businesses and homes and they were draped in black. though three weeks have elapsed and there's a mournful silence

upon the land, this mourning is not confined to any class or any district of the country. men of all political parties and of all religious creeds have united in paying this mournful tribute. the archbishop of the roman catholic church and a protestant minister walked side-by-side in a sad pro sessioning and a jewish rabbi performed a solemn part of the services. here gathered around his tomb, are soldiers, sailors senators, governors and offices of all the branches of the government. here too are men and women from the humblest, as well as the highest occupations. here too are tears sincere and warm which come from the eyes of those who have been freed from

their chains by him whom they mourn as their deliverer. more persons have gazed on the face of the departed than has gazed on my other departed man. more have looked on the pro session for 1600 miles by night, daylight, dawn, twilight and torch light than ever before watched the progress of a pro session. why has there been this extensive mourning this great out-pouring of grief and this great pro session? perhaps it is because of the time in which we live and in which he was the principal actor. this is an age of change. a time of war. in which brother fought brother and families were divided. wives gave their husbands and mothers their sons to the cause.

many never returned. and there was mourning in every home in the land. then came signs that the end of this rebellion was near. news came that richmond had fallen and lee had surrendered the bells range and the booming of cannon was heard. illumination and torch-light pro sessions manifested the joy, and families were looking for the speedy return of their loves ones from the field of battle. just in the midst of this wildest joy and one hour nay in one minute, all the joy was stilled when news that abraham lincoln, the best of presidents, had perished by the hand of an a assassin. then all the feelings, which had

been gather for four years in forms of excitement, grief, horror and joy turned in to one wale of woe he was stricken down when his hopes for the end of the rebellion were bright. and prospects of a joyous life were before him. but perhaps the great cause of this mourning is to be found in the man himself. mr. lincoln was no ordinary man. the conviction has been growing on the nation's mind that by hand of god, he was especially singled out to run our government. he had a logical turn of mind which followed, unwaiveringly every link in the chain of

thought on subjects which he was called to investigate. there have been more minds more broad in their character more comprehensive in their scope, but he had the ability to follow step by step with more approximate logic alabama power, the points which he desired to illustrate. he gained this power by a determination to perceive the truth in all its relations and simplicity, and when found, to utter it. his morale power gave him preeminence that people saw him as an honest man who would do what was right regardless of the consequences, it was this moral feeling that gave him the hold on the world. the great act on the mighty

chief on which his fame will rest long after his frame goes away, is that of giving freedom to a race. such a power, such an opportunity, god hasly seldom given to man. when other events shall have been forgotten. when his world shall have become a network of republics. when every throne shall be swept from the face of the earth. when literature will enlighten all minds and the claims of humanity shall be recognized everywhere. this act shall be obvious on the pages of history. we are thankful that god gave to abraham lincoln the decision and wisdom and grace to issue that proclamation which stands high above all other papers, which have been penned by uninspired men.

abe raraham lincoln was a good man he was known as an honest on estimate -- he was known as honest, just man, a man of noble heart in every way look over his speeches and listen to his utterances he never spoke un unkindly of any man. in his domestic life, he was exceedingly kind and affectionate. he was a devoted father and husband. standing by his coffin let us resolve the carry forward the policy that he so nobly had gun.e lyy had begun, let us do right by all men, and eradicate every part of human slavery to give every

human being the true position before god and man. to crush every form of rebellion, and to stand by the flag which god has given us. the time will come when in the beautiful words of him whose lips are now forever sealed, the mystic cords of memory stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and haerth stone all over this broad land will yet swell the chorus of the union, when again touched as surely they will be from the better angels of our nature. chief, farewell. the nation mourns you. mothers shall praise your name to their children. the youth of our land shall emulate your virtues. statesmen shall study your

record and learn lessons of wisdom. mute though your lips be yet they still speak. hushed is your voice. but it's he can he-- but it's echos of liberty are heard throughout the world. prisoned in dth, and yet, you are marching abroad and chains and manacles are crushed. humanity enthrones you as the triumphant son. hero, friend. farewell. ♪ ♪vwv÷

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ reverend jerome cankawalski will portray reverend hubbard. during the first week of march in 1865 on the steps of the capitol in washington city, the 16th president of these united states gave his second

naug inaugural address, this is what he said. fellow country men, there's less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. then, the statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. now at the exoperation of four years during which public decorations have been called forth on every point and phase of the great contest that still absorbs the attention and egress, and the energies of the nation, little that is new, could be presented. the progress of our arms upon which all else chiefly depends is well known to the public as it is to myself. and it is, i trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. with high hope for the future

no prediction in regard to it, is ventured. to occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. all dreaded it. all sought to avert it. while the inaugural address was being delivered from this place devoted all together to saving the union without war agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war. seeking to the dissolve the union and divide effects by negotiation. both parties depricated war, but one of them would make wore rather than let the nation survive and the other would accept war rather than let it perish and the war came, 1/8 of the whole population were colored slaves not distributed generally over the union but

localized in the southern part of it. these slachs constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. and all knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. to strengthen, and perpetuate the interest was the way that the insurgents would -- expected for the war, the magnitude or duration which is already attained. neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might crease with or even before the conflict itself should cheesrease, each looked for a easier triumph and the result was less astounding. both read from the same bible both parade to the same god and each invoked his aid against the other. it may seem strange that any man

should have to ask a just god's assistance? ringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces. but let us not judge that we be not judged. the prayers of both could not be answered. that if neither has been answered fully the almighty has his own purposes. woe unto the world for its offenses, woe to that man by whom the offense cometh, if we shall suppose that american slavery is one of the offenses that must needs come but which having continued through his appointed time now will remove, and he gives to both north and south this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came,ly shall we discern

any departure of the attributes that the believers in god subscribed to him. do we pray that the scourge of war pass away. if god wills that it continues, until the bondsmen of unrequited toil be sunk and every drop of blood drawn by the lash shall be paid by another drawn by the sword as was set 3,000 years ago, so must it still be said the judgments of the lord are true and rightous all together. with malice toward none with charity for all, with firmness in the right as god gives us the right to see, let us strive on

to finish the work we are in. to bind up the nation's wounds and care for him who fworn battle for his widow and orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ [ cheers and applause ]

i am reverend, jr. and i portray dr. simion heartcky. oh, god who's generations rise and pass away, the strength of those that labor and the repose of the blessed dead, we rejoice in the communion of thy saints, we remember all that have faithfully lived and those that peacefully died and those most dear to us and especially our great friend and and leader, abraham lincoln who now rests in thee. give us at length our portion of those that trusted in thee and driven in all things to do your holy will and untoyou know unto

thy name, we give honor and glory world without end. amen. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ reverend gene tucker will portray reverend gurley.

with your kind permission. be permitted to share portions of the word for our slain chief executive in the east room of the executive mansion in washington, d.c. on april 19th. as we stand here today, mourners around this coffin and around the lifeless remains of our beloved chief magistrate we recognize and we adore the government of god, his throne is in the heavens and his kingdom ruleth overall. he has done and he hath permitted to be whatsoever he pleased. whom the lord loveth, he chasten us. how the words have cheered and sustained us through the long

and weary years of civil strife. while our friends and brothers on so many fields were falling and dying for the cause of liberty and union. let them cheer and strengthen and sustain us today. true, this new sorrow and chaistening has come in such an hour and in such a way as we thought not that he should be taken from us. and taken just as the prospect of peace was brightly opening upon our torn and bleeding country. and justs as he was beginning to be animated and gladdened with the hope of enjoying with the people the blessed fruit and reward of his and their toil and care and patience and self sacrificing devotion to the

interests of liberty and the union. when he was leaving his home here in illinois, and coming to the city of washington, to take his seat in the executive chair, of a disturbed and troubled nation. he said, to the old and tried friends that gathered tearfully around him and bade him fairwell, i leave you with this request. pray for me. they did pray for him. and millions other people prayed for him. nor did they pray in vain. their prayer was heard and the answer appears in all his subsequent history, it shines forthheavenly radiance in it's course of commencement and close. god raised him up for a great

and glorious mission, and turn issued him for its work and aided him in its accomplishment. nor was it merely by strength of mind and honesty of heart and purity and tenacity of purpose that he furnished him. in addition to these things he gave him a calm and abiding confidence in the overruling providence of god and in the ultimate triumph of truth and righteousness and through the power and blessing of god. this confidence strengthed enhim through the hours of toil. and inspired him with calm and cheering hope when others were declining to gloom. never shall i forget the emphasis and the deep emotion with which he said in the east room of the executive mansion. to accompany a clergyman and

others that called to pay him their respects, in the dark estimate days of our civil conflict. gentlemen, he said, my hope of success in this great and terrible struggle rests on that immutable foundation the justice and goodness of god. and when events are very threatening, and the prospects are very dark i still hope that in some way which man cannot see, all will be well in the end. because our cause is just, and god is on our side. such was his sublime and holy faith and it was an anchor to his soul both sure and stead fast. by dwell constantly on the words and actions, your people will have a illustrious character

before their eyes and not conat the present time with the bare hinge of your mortal frame, they will have what is more valuable, the feerps of your mind. busts and statues like the originals are frail and perish perishable perishable, but, you, friend, will survive yourself and triumph over the injuries of time. let us pray. oh, mighty god and loving father, we commend the soul of the humble servient abraham. and by opening the gates of larger life, he may be received more and more in to thigh loving presence, that he may enter in to the blessed rest promised to all thy saints.

grant us all by thy grace to on cherish the good work done in him and the empowering spirit, may we be able to carry forth the ideals of liberty and to strive to perfect the union of these united states. and remembering that great mercies and loving kindness, we ask these things forsake of your holy name, amen. ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ it is finally my honor and prif tloej introduce to you a woman i met a few months ago and now call a very good friend. katie spindell.

governor and mrs. rouner distinguished guests. ladies and gentlemen, in 1865. the funeral of abraham lincoln is a very dark and difficult time in life. and how horned we have been over the last couple of days to present to you the images of what happened in 1864. it truly has been an honor. [ cheers and applause ] there are a coupe of additions that we want to add to the program that i think that you will all appreciate. would the pal bearers please

come forth? one of the parts of this program was that we wanted to bring in the history. and we were able to do that with in our palbearers. i know they are coming. would you be kind enough gentlemen to please just come tloong front here? and if you can single file.

as a geneologist, i find it important to connect the past with the present. and what i would like you to all know right now, is within the pal-bearers, we have direct descendents of the original palbearers, please step forward, those that are descendents. step forward. [ cheers and applause ] thank you so much. it is truly touching to me to

find that we have these individuals here who are recreating the role their ancestor played and i'm honored they are here. i want to thank the springfield society and the community members i have no idea how many of any one of them. i know that that choir over there is absolutely magnificent. would you be kind enough to show them? and their director, marianne had to put up a lot with me. i also want to thank the fifth michigan, the band that is over here.

and while we are doing this, i am sure she will love to sign it. we have to thank missy who is our interpreter today. i would like to now have the commander and the crew from the u.s.s abraham lincoln who have honest onnered springfield with their presence over the last couple of days. they will be placing a wreath at the assault and i know some of you may not be able to see it. trust me you will see it when it's all done. we will let them get on with their great work.

commander and crew, we

honored, truly to have you here. [ applause ] i believe that this event has shown to all of us how important abraham lincoln is, not only here, but around the world. the gentlemen that are here representing the clergy have come from a number of different places. you will also see that we have an empty chair. yes, it's difficult, an extraordinary man. named reverend keith was part of our group. and he suddenly passed away. and it was my intention then and it's now to make sure that keith

is represented here with that empty chair and his robe. we also had to alternates for the clergy. one of them is reverend david a anderson and the other one was malcolm shotwell and i'm grateful for them for always being willing to pinch hit when we needed it. [ applause ] i'm now going to turn this event over so that we can have the last parts of it occur. we are going to go back a little bit in to history yet again. general hooker. the rest of the program, sir, is yours.

general cook make ready your guns. abraham lincoln, our favorite son, our neighbor our friend. taken from us far too was reunited. that house does stand united. as there were two, now there is one. and the following brothers now stand has one. delaware, 1787.

pennsylvania, 1787. pennsylvania, 1797. -- 87. new jersey, 1787. georgia, 1788. connecticut, 1788. massachusetts, 1788, maryland, 1788 south carolina, 1788 new hampshire, 1788. virginia 1788. new york 1788. i

north carolina 1789. rhode island, 1790. have the vermont 1791. tennessee, 17196. ohio, 1803, louisiana, 1812. indiana, 1861. mississippi 1817. illinois, 1818 alabama, 1819. maine, 1720.kansas missouri, , 1721. the arkansas, 1836.

the michigan, 1837. florida, 1845. texas, 1845. iowa 1846. wisconsin, 1848. california, 1850. minnesota, 1858. oregon, 1859. kansas, 1861. west virginia, 1863. and nevada 1864. and the war was over.

and now he belongs to the ages. thank you.

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and that brings to an end the reenactment of the 150th anniversary of president lincoln's funeral. minut it took place may 4th 1865.oining in just a minute michael burlingame will be joining us to take your calls and to talk am about this day and president

lincoln as well. he is the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. you can also leave a comment on twitter @cspanhistory. or join the conversation on our s facebook page. professor burlingame this is a beautiful spring day out there in springfield, illinois. what was it like 150 years ago? pre >> it was very similar. and the conditions that prevail today are kwiekquite strikingly re ever similar. >> was there ever any question that abraham lincoln would be buried in springfield? >> yes, there was. his widow up upset by plans urie being made bd y the local authorities to have him buried in the center of town.

and she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge which is about 3 miles north of the center of town. she claimed it was her husband's wish to be buried here rather than the center of town. when the local authorities remain resisted, she threatened to have his remains buried in chicago.se the so the local authorities bowed . to her wishes. the widow does have the right to determine where her husband's remains are buried. so she was perfectly within her right. >> she was not there that day though, was she? >> she was not there. by she was so grief stricken by the assassination of her husband that she remained in the white house for several weeks after the assassination.as her older son, robert came out here for the funeral. but he was the only family member who made it to springfield for the occasion. >> now, today's events that we've been live with all day,

how accurate from your research? >> based on what i've discovered in my research, they are extremely accurate. the organization has been very conscientious about making them as authentic as possible. and it's to their credit. >> professor burlingame now that the funeral has ended. and what happened 150 years ago the rest of this day in spripg disper field? >> i'm not really an authority on that.>> let' i presume the crowd disbursed and that was that. >> let's take some calls. michael burlingame is the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." and a lincoln expert. jeanine is calling right from your city, springfield illinois. >> hi my question is symbolic , that the local springfield committee made i think there s it was about 16 members.

would that vote -- was it just on o symbolic to vote --r i think it fe' was like 8-7 honoring the r president's wife's wishes to bury him in oak ridge, or if that vote had turned the other way, would they have put him on it is another plat? >> the vote was indeed 8-7. and it's not entirely clear what would have happened if the vote had been reversed. it's entirely conceivable mrs. lincoln would have insisted on having him buried in chicago, or but h even the united states capitol. a funeral vault had been created for george washington but he's buried elsewhere. so there was an empty space, as it were. >> michael burlingame, he died on april 15th. it is now may 4th. that's 20 days. how did they preserve the body?

>> with embalmers and one of the more alarming aspects of this story of the fub ral train is that as the train proceeded from washington to baltimore and thene onto philadelphia, new york, harrisburg and so on onto albany to new york buffalo and cl cleveland and thenev eventually ton spring chicago and down to springfield the body began to deteriorate. the makeup artists were hard by t pressedhe to keep the corpse from n the looking more and more like a mum my. by the time he reachedhat here he was more like a mummy than the man in real life. >> is it an open casket there in springfield? >> yes open caskets yes. or l >> stephanie is calling in from chicago. >> how long did it take for lincoln's body to be really

interred, how many years?t an wasdn't there a fear about it t wasn't finished yet, the tomb and they put him somewhere inside of it? i'm not sure. was there a bunch of years? >> thank you ma'am. >> i'm not exactly sure how long the body was in the receiving vault before it was placed in the tomb proper but it was a while. >> and e his body has been at oak corre ridge since mayct 4th 1865, correct? >> that's correct. >> patricia in manchester tennessee. goodou afternoon. >> good afternoon. i'd like to just make a comment. i just watched the whole program and it was outstanding except aurus foran the fact that i don't feel that the tourist and the citizens that were not dressed in the era were very respectful

of our fallen president.rrible and i just wanted to let them know that that was a terrible, shameful way to act laughing and carrying on when they were carrying the casket into the tomb. >> thank you, ma'am. professor burlingame, do you know how many people were at oak ridge on may 4th 1865? >> i'm sorry, i don't. >> let's move onto bobby in jacksonville illinois. bobby, you're on american history tv. hi. >> hello. years how many years abraham lincoln lived in springfield in that house? >> thank you, ma'am. >> he -- president lincoln -- well mr. lincoln moved into the1861 house in 1844. and left in 1861. we so he was in that house for 17 years. but the house that we know today was a two-story rather imposing 1856. structure in that neighborhood

was not that tall until 1856. hou so most of the time that the lincolns spent in that house, it was a one-story, much more modest house. and it was only the last five years that they lived in the hous e with the extra story added. that was done by mrs. lincoln in 1856. so when we visit the house -- disto >> go ahead and finish. >> when we visit the house we get a somewhat distorted view of what most of the time that the lincolns lived in the house, it at we looked like. that it was much more cramped space than what we find when we go to the house today. it wasn't so cramped for the last five years of their residence. >> if people come to visit s refl springfield, what will they see that's reflective of abraham lincoln and his life there? >> well there's a great deal here in springfield. it's what i refer to as the holy land. linc you have the lincoln home of

course and the lincoln tomb. you have the lincoln law office where he practiced with his partner. and dramatically, yoa u have the old state capitol where he served as a legislator as a stati young man and gave his house divided speech in 1858. you can see the train station s beau for which heti departed for washington and where he delivered his beautiful farewell to the people of springfield. so there's a great deal to be seen. on top of that you have the abraham lincoln museum which is now ten years old which is quite of ath magnificent place for visitorsplease to get a good overview of the life and times of abraham nd that lincoln. >> and in fact cspan was live with the opening of that museum. you can find it at cspan.org if you'd like to watch our coverage. henry is in panama city, other i florida.

>> i'd likfaemi to ask the professor, are there any other immediate family members of yes abraham lincoln buried at oak ridge cemetery?willie i >> oh, yes.ere mrs. lincoln is buried here and l thre willie ise buried here. and tad is buried here and eddie is buried here. all -- three of the four sons are buried here, plus the widow. robert todd lincoln is buried in arlington cemetery. thoug as a military veteran, his wife t, i w thought he should be buried in gton t arlington o cemetery. when i discovered that 20-some years ago, i went out to arlington cemetery to visit, to pay tribute to him. his grave is 200 yards from my parents. >> professor what was mary todd lincoln's life like in y springfield after she returned as a prwidow? >> she was not very popular in isters

springfield.goni she was a very difficult woman e and she had antagonized her field sisters, neighbors. she was not eager to return to springfield after her husband's death. and she spent time in chicago.come she spent time abroad. and only in the later years did she come back to springfield to why sh stay with here sister. that's why she stayed away. lincoln was asked by his friend john todd stewart what he planned to do after his second term was over. he said that he planned to return to springfield. mrs. lincoln didn't want to. but he was very fond of springfield and wished to return to this city. >> renee is in new castle delaware. you're on american history tv. hi. >> hi. good afternoon. i was calling to ask the gentleman, in the reenactment today, was the casket that was

carried, was that lincoln's michae actual casket or was that a replica? >> i'm sorry. i didn't -- >> was that a replica casket or was that the same one that carried president lincoln's body? the one used today. ica. >> that's a replica. yes. >> do you know where that replica came from? where it's stored? >> i do not. >> thank you sir. next call is david.. david is in rochester, new york. hi, david. abou >> hi,t honor to speak to you professor burlingame. can you talk about what happened with robert lincoln i think it was in the 30 or 40 years later when they had to go into the dent tomb and open up the casket, lk a check somethingbo about the president? can you talk about why that was i' taking place, please? with th >> i'm not intimately familiar with that story.the

but i do know there was a concern to make sure that it was actually the body of the ld be president and that the only surviving son would be the one to identify. i'm sorry i can't give you more detail about that. >> professor what do you teach i tea at university ofch illinois ham linc springfield? >> i teach a course in the civil war and reconstruction and a seminar on abraham lincoln. >> tom thompson, pennsylvania, please go ahead with your question or comment. >> yes i was wondering if this is the first time there's ever why 1 been a reenactment of lincoln's interment, and if not, why 150 years later to this extent with the recreation of the car and the band with the period instruments, why has there never been one before and why now? >> i'm sorry, i don't know the answer to that. but i do know that the people who have been so conscientiously

working to honor this 150th anniversary of the event have i been at itdo for the past six years. it's a good question why this stors wasn't done, say, 50 years ago. >> are there any lincoln ancestors alive? >> no no. there are no descendents of abraham lincoln. robert todd lincoln had a son, but he died. daughters, but they didn't have offspring. >> kim, pleasant view tennessee. hi, kim. kim? you with us? >> yes, sir. >> we are listening. please go ahead. >> i had the question about if they used the actual coffin the president was in. but also i thought there were towns that they tried to take was a his body several times. so his body was actually moved. as >> yes, yes. the body was moved around insidethere ha the tomb. the tomb is rather large, the

area. and there had been a bizarre plot to steal the president's body by some counterfeiters. it was the gang that couldn't shoot straight and it aro failed. but it created such anxiety that the body was moved around within the tomb on more than one occasion in order to foil any future such attempts. >> michael t burlingame why the route -- the train route that hat wa wass taken to get abraham lincoln from washington back to : springfield? >> the train went from washington back to springfield which recreated more or less the train ride he had taken from springfield to washington in 1861. cincinnati and pittsburgh were omitted and chicago was added on the return trip. and it was undertaken in part to allow the public to express mourning not just for abraham coln, lincoln, because the tremendous outpouring of grief that was

accompanying the funeral train 0 was in part grieving for the 400,000 union soldiers who died during the war many of whom could not be mourned properly by their loved ones because they were buried in unmarked graves or buried in sites far away from the place where they had grown ive in s up. in those days, families were much more likely to stick together. they would live in y similar communities. when a family member was dying, you would be present be that person and bid him or her ver farewell and attend they funeral and the like. this was considered a very important ritual for people to be able to engage in when they lost a loved one. but so many thousands and thousands of people couldn't do that. and so the train ride was a kindon, at of ka that are tick exercise for which allowed the nation as a whole to engage in mourning not only for the fallen leader but for their fallen loved ones. train

that is the reason why it was such a powerful experience. it is estimated that 5 million people would have seen the train or the coffin or both. and one of the most striking e things about the train ride to my way of thinking was the train. reminisce sans of people who as children were taken to see the train, and as they wrote about y were it in later years they were more struck by the fact not thats they saw the train itself, but that they saw tears in their parents' eyes which they had are never seen before.s funera find that very moving. >> who were some of the dig tears that attended abraham lincoln's funeral. >> they were as we saw this afternoon, phineas gurney. the bishop matthew simpson was the head of the methodist church the largest church in the

country at that time.d and local authorities including his good friends who had worked n with him in politics and the law. general hooker who had been commander of the army of the poteau mack in 1863. and several other people of that sort. >> but not grant? profess >> no.i juan in georgia. juan, go ahead. >> yes professor burlingame? >> yes. fi >>eld i happen to live in springfield in the early 1940s.king i group up there. i lived west of town on the used t lincoln o frail.ilding just a walk from the capitol building to where in petersburg e. where lincoln's village was. back that day to get -- earn a an badge. we had a well out on the front irst m lawn. i pumped a lot of water for a

lot of boy scouts in the my country. ir attended the first methodist church in springfield onrd capitol and 5th street. my sunday school teacher was judge logan's grandson. we heard many stories about mr. work lincoln. i don't remember a lot of them. i was about 7 years old.yes. judge logan many mornings came to work and found mr. lincoln asleep on the couch. >> right. >> his grandson in atlanta right now.hael i talked b to him not too long ago. >> jud michael burlingame who is this judge logan? >> judge logan was lincoln's law partner, his second law partner. lincoln had three law partners. and his second law partner was

steven t. logan.n he wasthe probably the best lawyer in central illinois and was very instrumental in teaching lincoln the law and was -- lincoln regarded him as a kind of second father. lincoln didn't get along very well with his own father. and older men in positions of ly. authority served as surrogate fathers of lincoln. he was one of the most important.public meanwhile, a political ally of n lincoln. they were good members of the wig party together and champions of the republican party. judge logan was deeply devoted to lincoln and lincoln to judge ng of logan.alry there are many people in springfield whose ancestors were close to lincoln. anc this is something of a rivalry among people here whose ancestors knew lincoln. i horn in by saying, well, my great grandfather's cousin was

lincoln's ambassador to china. >> michael burlingame just ngfiel doing a little bit of math here - probably up through 1920 there were a lot of people living springfield who had actually nyone knowevn abraham lincoln. >> up until that time, yes. >> did anyone ever do oral quite a histories? >>hi yes. there was quite a lot of oral history of lincoln done. one of the great contributions to lincoln studies was an oral ied, history project undertaken by a and his law partner. herndon corresponded with and o interviewed people in indiana, core illinois in kentucky and created an archive of dozens and scores of interviews which shed a great deal of light on newspa lincoln, particularly in his prepresidential years. in subsequent years, newspaper interviewers and early biographers would come and ers an

interview people who knew ld not lincoln. those interviews are extremely valuable. they can be found in newspapers.phers. they can be found in the field notes and the research notes of a the early biographers. i was astounded when i began my research on abraham lincoln to is an go to brown university in providence rhode island which went t haso an excellent lincoln collection because john hay went to brown and left his papers rviews there. i discovered a whole cache of extremely valuable interviews that had been conducted by hay and also by his fellow secretary in the white house.ces all kinds of new information. so yes, there's an enormous mories treasure-trove and they have to be treated with a certain amounthe mor of caution. people's memories sometimes play tricks on them. mark twain said the older i get, the more vividly i remember they

things that never happened.ood if you use things in conjunction with contemporary documents, l they can be extremely revealing. >> you won the book prize in 1996. his "abraham lincoln: a life" o, it won theis 2010 lincoln prize.it w that's about a thousand pages you have in that book? >> it's 2,000 pages.becaus it weighs 9 pounds. so don't drop it on your foot. i recommend because it's so big and clumsy, somewhat awkward to hold i recommend that people a life get it electronic edition. as soon as you download it your device suddenly becomes much lling fr heavier. >> craig islvan calling from pennsylvania. hi, craig. >> hello.uestion professor, my question has to do with the reenact tors actually

carrying the dove finish. i assume they represented the veteran reserve corps. i understand they were the only y from ones who actually carried the coffin of president lincoln all and n the way from washington to springfield. and in springfield. and number one, can you tell me the relationship between the ve cor so-called palps bearers and the veteran reserve corps. i understand they received a medal of honor in guarding and escorting the body of president d perf lincoln. >> theat veteran reseven corps was in charge and did perform the functions that you mentioned. i didn't know the story about the medal of honor winner. that's a remarkable fact. glad to learn it.or mic >> mark, wilmington, delaware. good afternoon to you. you're on with professor michaelcaller burlingame a:t oak ridge cemetery

was a in springfield illinois. >> there was aed l caller earlier have c who asked about what happened later in the day. i came across a quote in a book ba i have called 20 days. and it was published in -- yes. and it says, later that day back in springfield, the crowd went to stand inof front of the nade t governor's mansion and listen tohee the band of the st. louis regimen who had come to march.d in spr it was the first quick time day happy music was heard in uching springfield in almost three s weeks. i thought that was a happy way to end the day. >> that's a touching story.lled i thank you. >> i pulled o it off myichelle f. i had it in my lap today. it's been nice. >> it is a remarkable book. and the huge collection of materials that they over the e of years compiled has recently been acquired by yale university. we ha

one of the best image collections of lincoln in the of it, country. >> we have to been live in springfield for several hours today. if you missed any of it and want to view it, 10:00 p.m. eastern time everything that we've the shown you today live will reair on american history tv. cspan3 on the weekends. lisa in california. hi lisa. >> hello. >> please go ahead, ma'am. >> hello. >> i just wanted to know washat was lincoln's favorite food? know. >> what made you curious about th that lisa? >> i don't know.erything i mean they're talking about everything else. but what did he like to eat?that que >> all right. let's see if michael burlingame knows the answer to that question. >> a friend of mine, his favorite food was chicken and ok on mashed potatoes and strawberry short cake. i have a friend who's written a

book on what lincoln liked to eat. he emphasizes that as lincoln's favorite meal. he was faymously not a foodie. gou they said he was a man who was hat not much of a connoisseur gourmet. the that he ate what was put before s fell him withoutow complaining. one he was famous on the circuit when he and his fellow lawyers ut lin would go around from one county to the next. all the other lawyers would complain about their food. but lincoln wouldn't. one day even his legendary patience wore then. he said to the host, sir, if this after-dinner beverage is coffee would you please bring me tea. and if this is tea, would you please bring me coffee. how's that for a gentle way to register a complaint.

>> mike in new jersey. >> hi, fellas. you mentioned before that there alive was no direct descendants of is tom abraham lincoln alive, lincoln'sind mother, her sister is tom hank's the actors great, great, great, great grandmother. >> right. t so there isom a hanks connection to the actor tom hanks to gran lincoln's mother's son.children no descendent of lincoln himself. heet didn't have grandchildren whoi wa then also had children of their own. >> margaret, hi, margaret. >> hi. i was wondering if lincoln is s told buried in mspringfield, illinois they always tell me he was ed? buried in a statute of lincoln in washington d.c. so where is he originally lin buried? >> he was buriedmori out here.tribute but of course the lincoln memorial, the magnificent

lincoln memorial in the mall in washington is a great tribute to him, but he's not buried there.urse it >> go ahead, sir. >> i was going to say, of course it's a magnificent tribute to lo lincoln, the lincoln memorial. one of the striking things is face not just the magnificent statute. but also as you look at that statute, if you gaze to the right -- you see -- whoa!g? >> i take it something went ew flying out there, huh? ok? >> a tent just blew over.ingame: is everybody okay? all right. >> sounds a little windy out when you there.o to the okay. >> it's a little alarming. anyway when you go to the lincoln memorial, you see also e -- the second inaugural address, the text is on the right-hand . wall and the gettysburg address is on the left-hand wall. s >> you can try social media

media @cspanhistory is american history's twitter address. or you can join the conversation on facebook. facebook.com/cspanhistory.om theresa, lebanon indiana. >> hello. b. >> you had a question from a caller asking about the moemt of lincoln's body within his tomb. >> right. >> and years ago when i was a very small child, nine or ten interv years old,ie i read a story in a magazine that was an interview with an elderly gentleman who ensu had witnessed them opening the top part of president lincoln's coffin to ensure that it was indeed him in the coffin. >> right. >> m and i remember -- i remember the story well because it just -- it freaked me out terribly because heythi described in detail the condition of his why skin, the condition of his clothing and everything else. and he you know, told the story about why he was there.

and i -- that story stayed with me forever until a few years agohe when i googled the story again. the man i think passed away in the '80s or '90s or something. he was very young. many ru they were moving him to make sure that the tomb was more secure. there had been too many rumors of his bodyagaz being stolen. that was what i remember readingto t from that magazine. >> well and speaking of childhood exposures to the story of lincoln, i have a good friend an who was --d a woman who was reading to her 4-year-old son a the st book about lincoln a few years back. and the son was quite taken with the story of the assassination. so he turned to his mother and eater said, do i have the story right, the president went to the theater and he was watching the play and then he got shot while said, he was watching the play, but he didn't die until the next ught abo morning. and his mother said, that's

right son.t you so the little boy thought about that, thought about that.st: then he said, well at least he got to - see the end of the play. >> up next -- >> this is a true story. >> john in lake city, florida. john, you're on american history tv. >> good afternoon and thank you ve one for what you're doing. i have two questions -- or one question and one -- but first is regarding the myth tholgy behindid president lincoln, i do not believe he actually knew that term, that it was a term invented by the media after his death. and secondly, i'm quite concerned and taken aback by how many people call mr. lincoln a own wh tyranter when in reality, my studies have shown where he may have stretched the constitution, his adversary did the same.

yet, i see authors continually downgrading this man. i just don't understand why that is. >> well, there are pranks and lunaticlo fringe in all fields. i think those folks belong on that lunatic fringe. one of the striking things about i lincoln during the civil war, the suppression of civil liberties during that conflict was much less severe and intense than with france in 1798 when they passed the acts which triedparty. to crush the newly emergent jefr season january party. then world war one when the espionage acts were passed. world war ii when 120,000 rial, japanese americans, many of them citizens of the united states were incarcerated with new due process and the like.

the story is how little rties, particularly considering that b it how i was a war, it was a very seriouscivil civil war, domestic war spying ii and. espionage and sabotage was much more prominent than it he could have been in world war one and world war ii. the main complaint is that he e priv suspended the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus. it says it may be suspended in wri times of domestic rebellion and foreign invasion. it said, the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus may not be suspended by the legislature except in p times of domestic uthori rebellion and foreign invasion. it was pretty clear that the president had that authority if congress didn't specifically forbid him from doing so. so it's mostly a story by delorenzo and his ilk. >> we were showing the entrance t

to the tomb there with the iron doors and oak ridge up above it. >> yes. >> was that built specifically or eve forr abraham lincoln and what do you see when you go through those iron doors? >> well, i've never been fo through, so i can't say for certain. i'm not sure that it was created just for him. sorry to say. isit >> you've neveror been through inga thosmee: doors, huh? >> right. >> are visitors allowed to go -- >> no. >> the tomb itself is entered p the from a very different angle.st: different elevation. >> oh, up the stairs? >> up the stairs, right. >> okay.ofessor. mike in columbus ohio -- yes, e tomb sir, go ahead, professor. >> i was just going to stay that the tomb and the monument above the tomb is really kwiek striking. and one of the controversies that surrounded the burial of president lincoln and the

erection of the monument was nument mrs. lincoln insisted not only that her husband be buried here but that the monument honoring his memory be buried by the tomb. she didn't havethe the right to insist on where the monument would be placed. but she was a rather imperious woman and she got her way. >> mike, ohio, go ahead, mike. good >> yeah, professor, i just g with wanted to ask you was abraham im lincoln a good lawyer? did he get along with the news media in and has history made him bigger than he really was?s a >> he was a good lawyer. he wasn't a great lawyer. but he was a good pro vin shall lawyer. very capable.vered. and with the news media, he got along very well. this is something i discovered. lincoln had his secretaries, two young men in their 20s and their

assistant, write for newspaperslicies a write defenses of the a administration explanations of the lincoln policies and lincoln appointments that appeared anonymously in papers in the midwest and new york missouri and elsewhere. and so he -- he wanted to have the newspapers cover him lic favorably. one of the techniques that lincoln used to communicate to the public that was very effective was to write public letters to newspaper editors or cri toti critics and they would get reprinted widely in his -- in newspapers of the day. it was in lieu of press e conferences, these were techniques that lincoln used to help cultivate the press.i don' has history made him bigger than he deserves?figure i don't think so.n as time goes by we'll become toiate t appreciate himod as a larger figure than even we appreciate my m today. >> james tweets in that my t

motherha tells me she has an are - ancestor who is in lincoln's funerary honor guard. sources where i can check this out? >> you can write to the abraham lincoln presidential library here in springfield. there's a reference desk. they would be willing and eager to help you. >> garrett is calling in from l hansex come air force base. >> it's near lexington. >> in kentucky sm. >> no, massachusetts. >> thank you, sir. go ahead.essor, >> sir t professor, thank you for m the book. >> oh, well thank you. >> my question is, since this isout what about the funeral the program is about i had a question about additio what would lincoln have done if ion, he were still alive during that

time? an additional question do you have to pay to get into the cemetery? >> thank you, garrett. >> you don't have to pay. and the question of -- the question you posed is one that to an historians havesw tried to answer for many years. that is what would have happened if lincoln had lived. when i was a student in school, high school, this was just wo slightly after the second pun ik war, i was taught that lincoln would have been crucified by congress just the way his successor andrew johnson was. that lincoln had called for a mild set of peace terms during sayin the war. he offered a set of peace terms to the south if you lay down your arms and accept the abolition of slavery, there member won't be any punishment, except fo.r the highest ranking members andre of the confederate military and igorou civilian government. a then andrew johnson tried to implement a plan like that. congress impeached him and he many came withinye one vote of being ln.

removed from office. the argument that was prevalent his when i was a student, was that that is what would have happened to lincoln. most historians don't agree with that now. they say what lincoln was doing uthern by offering a set of peace terms was encouraging southerners to throw in the towel. suffered e egregious defeats. and no reasonable southerner could believe they would win the war on the ground. m but that motive no longer existed once robert e. lee sur rended on april 9th. two days later, lincoln gave a hat speech in which he called for a new set of peace terms. one of those terms was that black people would be allowed to vote. for the first time publicly acknowledged that he supported black suffrage at least for those veterans of the union army

and for the very intelligent by which we assume he meant the literate. and frederick douglas, who was dent in the audience that day heard the president give that speech. and he said that he and his fellow abolitionists were somewhat disappointed by the limited scope of lincoln's call for black voting rights. known bu tt frederick douglas said later, i should have known and we should have known that that the sc was aho terribly important speech sert a because abraham lincoln learned his statesmanship in the school of rail splitting. having done that, you drive home the thick edge of the wedge with a giant hammer. we should have known that that's what lincoln was doing that day. you could count on him to drive home the thick edge of the ord wedge. johnp. wilkes booth turned to his

colleagues and said that means nand i' word citizenship. by god that's the last speech he's ever going to give i'm going to run him through. three days later he killed lincoln.g not because he supported the 13th amendment but because he called for black voting rights. therefore i think it's appropriate for usarty to think of lincoln as a martyr to black civil rights as much as martin luther king or andrew cheney or ch anyam of those people who were murdered in the 1960s as they championed the civil rights revolution. >> we've only got four minutes left with our guest. ng >> theokay. ou >> ifr you're interested in making comments or joining this conversation, if you go to our facebook page quite a lively conversation going on there. facebook.com/cspanhistory. robert in tennessee, you're on

robert. >> southern generals, the southern congress was able to goion. to lincoln's funeral? >> i'm sorry.ncoln' >' southern representation at abraham lincoln's funeral any of the southern generals? >> no. there were nine generals from army, virginia who n served in the union army. but not generals from the confederate army no. >> did robert e. lee have any d reaction? but to the death of abraham -- >> i'm sure he did. i can't tell you what it was offana. the top of my head.caller i'm sorry. >> brian in indiana, hi brian. bc >> professor, l a pleasure. my wife and i had the honor of libr visiting the abear lincoln's presidential library as well as the tomb. here's my question.tifact are most of abe lincoln's game: artifactwes there at the library

and in springfield or is it spread throughout the country?ion >> well, there are many artifacts here. there's a huge kwex of documentsrs. related to lincoln's life particularly his prepresidential i spe life. this is a mecca for all lincoln scholars. i spent many many summers here.the it's an invaluable collection of documents and newspapers and archiveal term. the library of congress has a huge collection. and there's a project underway now being carried out in springfield to collect all the documents that were addressed to president lincoln in addition to the ones that are in his papers here and in washington. the and many of those wound up in the nationalco archives and they're cubic acres of papers. the crew based here