admission preferences for university legacies and other channels which serve as examples of hidden forms of affirmative action for privileged groups. it also ignores the well-documented evidence from experimental psychologists involving the phenomenon of serial type threat, serial type boost and serial type lift. they collectively demonstrate that outcomes on high stakes standardized tests like the s.a.t. underestimate the achievement of college readiness for test takers from groups socially stigmatized as cognitively inferior while correspondingly exaggerate the scores for individuals from

groups socially deemed as cognitively superior. nonetheless, the conventional wisdom is that only -- if only black youth were more focused on education, they could get a good job and pursue a path way towards economic security. yet at every level of education, the black unemployment rate is about twice as high as the white rate. data reveals that white high school dropouts have lower unemployment rates than blacks who have completed some college or earned an associates degree. a recent report by jones and schmidt indicates that unemployment rate for black recent college graduates exceeds 12% and is as high as 10% for black recent college graduates with a s.t.e.m. major so college degrees positively associated with wealth within race but does little to address the massive racial wealth gap. for families whose head earned a college degree, the typical black family has only -- has about $23,000 in wealth while a typical white family has close to eight times that amount with about $180,000 in wealth. this amounts to a difference of about $160,000 between similarly educated households. furthermore, and perhaps more alarming, black families whose head graduated from college have only two-thirds of the wealth of

white families whose heads dropped out of high school. it's noteworthy that a good job is not a great equalizer as well. white head of households where the head is unemployed have nearly twice the amount of wealth for black head of households where the head is employed full-time. education is not the anecdote for the enormous racial gaps in wealth and unemployment. none of this is intended to diminish the intrinsic value of education. there is clear intrinsic value to education along with a public responsibility to expose everyone to a high quality education. what is concerning is the overemphasis on education as the panacea to address socially established structural barriers and racial inclusion. the racial wealth gap cannot be explained by higher education. it is explained by inheritance, bequest and in vivo transfers which account for more of the

racial wealth gap than behavioral, demographic or social economic indicators. these intra-family transfers provide young adults capital to purchase a wealth generating asset like a home, like a new business or a debt-free college education that will appreciate over their lifetime. access to this non-merit based seed capital is not based on some action or inaction on the part of the individual but rather, the familial position in which they are born. insofar as we are truly interested in living up to the american promise of a civil right to economic opportunity and upward mobility for all, we need to acknowledge and address the role of intergenerational resource transfers and recognize the limitations while also recognizing the value of education. one such route would be to write to upward mobility and economic transformation would be child trust accounts which i'm happy

to talk about more in the q & a but i think my time is up. >> thank you, dr. hamilton. >> that was a very sobering analysis, and to put into perspective the fact that nothing is a panacea. but i also appreciate your recognition that this is a significant issue, and one that does address at least partially the aspiration for upward mobility and improvement in one's socioeconomic status within generations and beyond. i would like to ask chancellor white to comment on the strategies that have been utilized in the california state university to address the challenges with respect to persistence and degree attainment, and, if you would, talk about the way those strategies may have differed --

may differ from the strategies discussed by dr. miller and dr. apprey, given the differences between the comprehensive university and the flagship university, as well as any other important differences to take into account. >> thank you, commissioner. for the next three and half hours, i will be happy to answer your question. i think to step above the specific program, what really i think is at stake here for students who come from the disparate sectors and fabrics of society is how do we make them be prepared, feel welcomed and challenged and supported, all at the same time. the various programs, such as the summer bridge program or the early start program. let's take the san bernardino campus in inland southern california has a high number of pell eligible students. a lot of poor kids. this upcoming summer, president morales has as a requirement all incoming students need to be in residence for two weeks on campus before the start of the fall term. there are dollars associated with that. the idea being during those two

weeks, the students who may come feeling that they can't succeed will end up leaving knowing that they will succeed. they know where the library is, the laboratories are, they know how to interact with students, they know the faculty are there to support and engage. i think before getting into specific programs, i want to say the idea here is sort of a velcro idea. the students who come from first

generations do not have a family member to say, hey, how do i go about being successful in organic chemistry or how do i recover myself when i stub my toe on an essay on american history. we need to provide that level of support while at the same time holding a very high expectation for achievement. these programs that take at scale for us but individualize those kind of experiences in the weeks and months and years before they get to us at the university and once they're there to also have early in their first and second year, which is the place where the greatest attrition occurs, the fact they can get into a small learning community by whatever design, whether it's a peer mentoring group or a cohort faction or a laboratory or clinic or studio where they get that personal attention and realize they are both welcomed and challenged. we often get criticized in california for having a low four and six year graduation rates calculated on first time full-time students, when you

have, as we heard earlier, our average age is almost around 25 years of age now and most of them are working 30 hours a week or more. they, in order to manage life, cannot take a full load all the way through. we could raise the graduation rates by excluding those students from enrollment. but i think we have taken a position at csu we should be prideful and crow about who we graduate, not who we exclude. we are working hard on getting

more students to degrees sooner by these cohort individualized programs, recognizing that they are not a monolith, as you mentioned earlier, across any race or ethnicity, rather to individualize the programs that help support them have success and achieve and move to degrees sooner. that may differentiate from the flagships who have different admission standards. coming together as americans, all of those pathways. the point i would like to make, america is not a monolith. multiple portals of access, multiple ways to be successful, that's the way the american dream in this multi-cultural world of ours will succeed going forward, it seems to me. >> could i ask -- yes. >> i was just going to tag onto the back end of chancellor white's comments with remarks from cal state fullerton's vantage point. i'm a new addition to cal state fullerton. my past experience is for a number of years, working with

student retention, persistence and timely graduation in selective institutions or flagship institutions, i thought okay, i've come to cal state fullerton, i've done my research and i have a good idea of what is going on here. and entering an environment that is 90% commuter, 50% pell, a lot of the methodologies that are normative at flagship institutions and selective private institutions are limited in their scaleability. the emphasis at cal state fullerton has really been on persistence and timely graduation strategies that are eminently scaleable. one of the more granular points i wanted to add to the conversation is the importance of things like technology. we don't have the funds to hire the number of academic advisors to meet nakata standards. we are not going to get to that

250 to 1 ratio to do truly transformative advising every step of the way. but what we can do is on-board technologies that allow the advising staff we do have to use a much more sophisticated predictive analytics platform to spend with students is spent on the students who need the help the most and the students who are most likely to benefit from the academic engagement across their first two years. really leveraging i think what in the private sector would be called big data to benefit the core practices like academic advising. alternately, putting technology in the students' hands, allowing them to use mobile platforms to bring a sense of coherence to their degree pathway. whenever students see a murky sea of, you have nine million options on your way to graduation, it can actually result in analysis paralysis and the inability to move forward. an hour ago we were talking

about community college swirl and the inability to really leverage that associates degree effectively. we are able to put technology in students' hands now and soon we'll be better at it, that allows them to really see the degree pathway mapped out for them from their first year forward. so they can say, you know, i'm thinking about switching from this major to that major, which is very common. what will the implications be on all the credits i brought in and how will that reorganize itself. so that my time to degree doesn't change. what do i need to do as a result of this shift in career discernment and the need for a new major so that they don't have to be able to sit down with an advisor for an hour to map that out. we have been able to access technology that will remap it for them.

i think a combination of these scaleable enterprise-wide solutions we're looking at are important in the thinner budgets and in the very high risk ecosystem that an access focused comprehensive like the cal states embody. >> i would imagine, dean apprey, that those principles, although slightly different have some resonance to the presentation that you made. >> i do think that sometimes we make the mistake of scaling across campus too soon. we find a successful program and we are too quick to try to save money and therefore try to get everybody into that system. i put my business hat on and say short versus scaling across is the way to go. you don't say this program has a wonderful peer advisor program, let's do it for everybody. you have to systematically think your way through it. there are very specific things that we have done that i think makes students successful, and i would do this whether i was at a small university or a large university. there are specific advising and

mentoring skill sets to impart. students don't typically -- students from underrepresented and underserved groups don't typically do well in s.t.e.m. areas unless special efforts are put into those. so very specific counseling strategies like making sure they have core sequences in the right place, making sure no one takes economics before they have done calculus and statistics, because you've got to get them early into the idea that quantity and change comes before quantity and chance, quantity and chance comes before quantity and prediction. if you have these kinds of specific strategies in place, they can do economics, they can do genetics, they can do engineering, they can do experimental psychology. >> thank you. could i ask one more question, mr. chairman? >> sure. >> both for dr. hogan and chancellor white, could you talk about the number of students who come to your campuses from the community college?

at least my recollection is almost two thirds of the students who are graduated by the california state university came to the university as transfers from the community college. and yet, commissioner yockey, the answer to his question about how predictive of success is actually going to the community college in the first place, those two -- what is the relationship between those two seemingly contradictory statistics? chancellor white and dr. hogan? >> briefly, we admit about 110,000 students every fall. of which about 50% come from the community colleges, so about

52,000, 53,000 students, and the balance are either restarting or coming out of high school. and you are right, the community college transfers for us tend to be more successful and result in about 60% or so in any given year, it varies 2% or 3% of our overall graduates. a couple of things have come into play. first, in various regions, long beach being one, there is an affiliation between the k

through 12 system, the community colleges and the cal state campus in long beach to where the faculty and administrators and the community know that if a student does the right things in k through 12 and goes to the community colleges and takes certain courses and performs at the right level there, they are assured admission into long beach state and they can get through in two more years or three more years. that partnership is developing in many different areas, fullerton has one, some up north in san jose, san francisco bay area, so that's one thing where we sort of regionalized the systems and created that feeder system in that region. there is also legislation that occurred a handful of years ago in california creating associate degrees for transfers, which actually challenged both the community college faculty and

the california state university faculty and to a lesser extent, the california university faculty to create model curricula where students take a certain set of courses at a community college, it's guaranteed access when they pass them at the appropriate level, guaranteed access to a california state university campus. that has just started about two or three years ago with some degree of success. last year, 6,000 or 7,000 of our students came in with associate degrees for transfer. that means all of their lower division work is taken care of

and they can get right into their major and have a much greater probability of success. the swirl part that happens and the getting lost part happens when they just get thrown out of high school into a community college without any direction. i think the paralysis of too many choices and distractions of life is what gets in the way. we actually worry sometimes, particularly the first generation low income, that if they get thrown into a community college without some sort of a lifeline that we will never see them again. and they will go off and never fulfill their potential. i don't think they are contradictory but i think it's the evidence of where there's success means there's some structure and some expectation to go beyond the community college. >> dr. hogan, you want to comment? >> some of my comments will sound very similar to chancellor white's but i will also give you some specifics. 15 years ago we took in three first time full-time freshmen in the university system of maryland for every one transfer. in 15 years, now today, it's a one-to-one ratio we are taking in. that's a huge shift. why? i think societal. i think parents in society have deemed community colleges as a good -- i'm not a spokesman for the community colleges, but maybe i'm just lucky. in maryland, there are great community colleges around the country. we have 16 phenomenal community

colleges. if you think about, people always say oh, it's so expensive to get a college degree. there is an affordable way if you want. and there is no more affordable way then going to community college, living at home. you might be living at home for work reasons or family reasons, all kinds of reasons, and then transferring the last two years to a four-year institution. now, for that to work, as chancellor white said, there has to be some structure. we have a program in maryland called aces, and it's a collaboration between the university system of maryland, community colleges and k through 12. where the community colleges send coaches down into the k through 12 schools, identify students, low income, first in family potentially going to college, who just with some structure that frankly, they don't have at home, or there is not a family history of, you know, it's not a question of where are you going to go to

college. that question is if you are going to go to college. and they helped get them on a guide path, a glide path and guide path to college. we have a way to go maryland program. we go out into middle schools around the state and especially low income middle schools, and have seminars, invite the students and parents in and this is the academic track you need to get on, okay, starting in middle school so you're college-ready. and, oh, by the way, start thinking about scholarship programs and financial aid programs and if you can put a bit of money away, $25 per month savings program.

all of those structures are in place. and we have a very, very almost seamless articulation system between our community colleges and our four-year institutions. that is key. also, there is nothing worse than going to a community college, taking 60 credits, and having 40 of them transfer. to be successful, they need to be -- they need to be real courses, they need to be aligned with the courses for a freshman and sophomore year at a four-year institution so they will transfer, so when the student comes in their junior year, they are truly a junior. >> so there are programs that work. >> we even have one last one, if i may. >> sure. >> we found a lot of students, talk about this churning or swirling or sometimes we call it credit accumulation with nothing to show for it. we found a whole group of students who went to community college, got 30 or so credits, then transferred to a four year

institution and got another 40 credits. and then that's it. they now have 70 credits, nothing to show. we have a reverse transfer process. we identify those students, communicate with the community college, and that student -- because that student is likely with 60 or more credits if they're the right courses, is eligible for an associates degree. so they have some certificate, some -- also, i'm sorry to go on, we established by legislation a two plus two program that rewards students for going to community college, getting the aa degree, and then transferring to one of our

four-year institutions. if they go to community college, get their aa degree and they transfer, they get $1,000 semester scholarship, if they are regular -- all majors. if they are a s.t.e.m. major, $2,000 per year. there is a financial reward incentive for doing that. an institution like coppin state university, historically black institution, right in baltimore city, they're woefully low six-year graduation rate. but the students who transfer from community colleges, four times as high graduation rate. i was actually quite concerned when i heard statements that community college transfers don't succeed. we don't have evidence of that. ours do succeed. >> i want to acknowledge that for some time now, commissioner kladneigh has been on the line. he hasn't asked any questions but is listening and participating. i will now turn it over to the commissioner kirsanow followed by the vice chair. that may end up taking most of

our time. >> thank you to the panelists. this has been very informative. at some point in the near future we will be writing a report that will make recommendations for increasing college access, persistence and attainment rates for underperforming minorities. we have had several panels that have been phenomenal and they have cited a number of programs that ostensibly increase all of those rates but when you write a report to congress and the president, it comes down to basically one thing, money. okay? so i've heard from a number of panelists we need substantially more funding. i've also heard from panelists that some of these programs have been in effect for 50 years. we have had a department of education in existence for 36 years. it is $70 billion per year, spends trillions of dollars yet s.a.t. scores are flat. college attainment has gone to number 11.

we spend trillions of dollars and have very little to show for it. i saw another graph today that shows the achievement gap between blacks and whites over the last 23 years has narrowed by two points. two points. that means it will take 300 years before it's erased. that, to put it charitably, is just a modest improvement. i'm being very charitable. i don't mean to be throwing cold water on all of this but if we're writing a recommendation to congress, if it comes down to money, of the myriad programs i've heard about here, and there are a number of interesting ones, dr. apprey has a lot of interesting approaches, all of you have. bang for the buck, which ones in

your estimation are the most effective? >> i would say the ones that allow our students to engage with faculty on a campus and not be scurrying off for part-time jobs, so they can actually engage in the learning enterprise are the ones that bring the most value. that is the thing, work study, because you're working in a laboratory with a faculty member. you have your organic chemistry exam coming up tomorrow, do well on it, somebody cares about these kids. to me, education to me is more than just the abcs and their majors, it's learning how to work in group settings, learning how to set goals, learning how to aspire for success but manage defeat. it's much more than just being able to know sarbanes-oxley if you're an accounting major. i would say what matters most are the types of support mechanisms that let those who

come from a low income status or first generation status, naive status, if you will, of what college is all about, the opportunity to be engaged and to stick and to really focus and not just be dropping in and dropping out and taking one class. >> go ahead. >> i will be brief. i think, commissioner, one of the things you said really struck a chord. right now, the largest public coherent effort to try to address a lot of the problems you're naming is the access to success initiative. it's a national effort. it's over 22 i think state systems are involved, hundreds

of institutions, to try and connect historic commitments to access to actual issues of college success. the learning that i want to share with you from the midterm report that came out in 2012 is that strategies that affect overall improvements in persistence and graduation for students in four, five and six years grad rates in higher education do not necessarily result in closing the achievement gap. my microphone is out of batteries, but i'm a loud person. closing the achievement gap oftentimes takes different strategies than improving the overall four, five, six year grad rates. in the access to success initiative, institutions were able to do a lot of good in the first five or six years of the initiative in moving the needle on four, five and six year grad rates. but when you move the overall by ten points and say african-american students were

lagging by 15 points and everybody moves by ten points, african-american students are still lagging by 15 points, right? i think there is almost two conversations to be had. how to improve the overall ecosystem of higher education so that it supports student persistence and timely graduation, and then how to imbed identity conscience approaches to persistence, retention and empowerment to students whose identity is at the crux of how they are experiencing higher education, right. these institutions have been able to move the needle at all on closing the achievement gap are doing both. they are trying to also work very specifically with higher risk student communities to make sure they are supported, mentored, engaged with faculty, imbedded in high impact practices, all the good stuff, right, but that has to be done with great intentionality around issues if you're talking about

the achievement gap for students of color, around race. i just wanted to make sure that was stated for the record. >> dr. hamilton? >> is this on? i guess i want to add some questions. i'm hearing some -- i have concerns about diversion of resources into community colleges at the expense of four year colleges. the concerns i have is that a fear of taking away choice and creating apartheid like systems that lead to one strategy towards education success for one group of people, and another strategy for another group of people. we can talk about success. at harvard university, net tuition is the key. the plan that they have which allows all income qualifying students to get debt-free education is effective, so we can find effective programs, but i want to ask that question, then i want to end by talking about some new findings that me and some collaborators are looking at using the panel study of income dynamics. they have an indicator of family

giving to adult children towards various activities, one of which is education. clearly, that is supporting their children in higher education. it is not a surprise white families are more likely to engage in that activity than black families for the resource differences i cited earlier. what we are finding that is perhaps surprising is when a black family -- that black families that do support their children, their resource positions are dramatically less than those of whites, which is suggestive there is not a lack of value for education within black families, but the other point is that when we look at outcomes for their children, that of the black families that give in comparison to the white families that give to their adult children, the adult children have similar graduation rates from high school, and the black families are nearly twice -- i'm sorry, not twice as likely, nearly 33% more likely to get a degree school degree, et cetera. indeed, 55% of the black

children, of the adult black children who receive help from their families supporting higher education actually do get a graduate education degree. of course those results have all kinds of selection and reverse causality, but what is noteworthy is that resources really are key and that there are families that are, even within, when we think about these deficit models, there are some families that have resources in these groups that are able to come up with great outcomes. i hope that's helpful. >> we do have a little extra time, if you are done, did you want to say something? >> resources are key because when our students have the peace of mind to focus on their work, we have the strategies to help them get the work done. rome wasn't built in a day, but it was built.

african-americans and others could not even until the late '50s. now we're top of the list. we've got what it takes to protect the resources. >> thank you. i just want to first of all, applaud uva for moving to a need line admissions and making a commitment of support to make sure that everyone who qualifies is able to attend. i think that's an amazing act of leadership among a very important flagship school.

so i just want to note that. so it's not that we're all complaining about everything up here. so i have two quick questions. within is chester white, you noted that you thought an answer to commissioner's questions that it helps students spend more time studying and engaging in schools would be the most helpful. and you mentioned work study. i want to also ask about some work options. so one of the things we've had in our readings is the notion that the pell grants have fallen behind in terms of covering the full cost of college, much less providing a stipend. and then the second question i had was for those of you who talked about the trio programs. so there has been some recommendation that the myriad of different programs be merged into one different grant program, and i'm wondering what your thoughts are about what kind of reform in those programs might be helpful.

>> so, thank you commissioner. yes, i think it's really the combination of the opportunities that are out there. so pell of course provides some resources. i am concerned, particularly for students of color and low income that, it's been at recent times excluded from summer session. that's an artificial barrier to students. if they fall behind, they could get back quicker during the summer. i think there's a policy issue that there that should be reconsidered. the model is interesting to try on a pilot basis. i actually come from the belief that we ought to be clear as a nation and as state and in my case as a system on goals but loose on the means to get there. so the campus can tailor their

financial aid around the types of students we have, which differ from the students that we have at san luis obispo. so meeting certain objectives, i this is important as well. but it's a combination of the avenues. education is so individualized and personalized. yet we're doing it at a big scale. virginia is a big place. and so that's the challenge in front of us. how do we manage both the flexibility, hold people high on accountability but have outcomes that matter for america? >> well, i would just like to echo what chancellor white is saying about the two pell in one year, the summer pell because we

saw -- we have a limited amount of money that we can use to be able to assist students for summer school. which does allow them, if they're not meeting story progress or they need to get ahead or they want to do a double major or something along those lines. -- but also personal expenses, books and supplies, traveling home, and being able to get to school. the big issue for us is when we're meeting a student with a zero efc and we're able to refund some financial aid, then it becomes a financial literacy issue. how do you take the refund? how do you budget it for the entire semester, and to make the money meet your need in the form? >> yeah, i'm thinking about

stipends. many of the panelists come from schools where the students are having to work full time. it's not just the cost of school but you have less time for school because you're working 40, 50 hours a week. >> i'm going to give you some time. >> thank you very much, mr. chair. we heard from yesterday other panelists that the federal government was investing in higher education at the tune of two and a half times more money than the states were investing. and it was advocated by at least one of them that we do something, that we change that funding model. perhaps a model that would have the federal government match to some degree the moneys that the states were putting in. that they needed to have some skin in the game. i was wondering if representatives from a couple of the systems here will care to comment on whether that has any appeal to you at all.

>> that would be a disaster for this state of virginia. because we don't pull in enough money in our system. >> and we're putting in less and less. >> less and less. >> as time goes on. >> absolutely. i think there's some merit to the concert. we're in the final budget

negotiations. if you would like to call governor brown for me, i would be happy to give you his cell phone. i think, you know, it's always so difficult in this nation, and it will happen again some time in the not so distant future is the next recession. the state of california took one billion. one-third of the support of the the california state universities over the course of about two years. if there was some -- now everybody was suffering across the country, so it wasn't just a california specific thing. but a more refined partnership between the federal and the state governments on shared responsibility one of the points try to make is we're all in this together to buffer those moments. maybe something that worth doing deeper thinking on. >> we are a state public university system.

i mean, just by that definition, that means the states should be investing in public ier education system. knock on wood. i've been fortunate to be in maryland, which has not cut higher education funding as dramatically as it has in many other states. but if i was in that situation, i would submit the federal money should have some type of effort to it. why should a state abandon its responsibility and effort to funding its pubic higher education system and let the federal government pick up the tab, or the student, or the parent, whoever is paying. absolutely it is a shared responsibility. >> thank you. did you want to say something? >> well, really quick. history has shown us in multiple

dimensions that that shared responsibility is different based on race and race plays a huge role. so if we're interested in human rights, it's ethically rights that states should contribute. i guess i'm rambling on. but i can cite many examples. the gi bill, by having it administered at the state level, even though the funding came from the federal level. if we were to come up with a program like this. we can look at examples of, i imagine mississippi, which has a high concentration of blacks. may not contribute as much as california, which has been a leader. if the goal is to increase access for all groups, where we had more agency within states of

how those funds were administered. >> thank you. commissioner, you have a quick question? >> not too quick. but i'll try to do the best i can. i'm glad to hear what was said about the cal state system with regard to the community college program. i would also add there is a similar program that takes them into the curriculum to get them into a four-year college, and it's showing dramatic success. to get people out of the swirl. what wasn't said, but in a separate conversation i had, he was talking about the fact that you basically ran out of pell grant eligibility if you're caught in that swirl. and then you may go to the four-year institution, and then after the second semester, you know, you're off, and then you're in deep trouble. access has always been a particular concern of mine. the impact of -- disproportionate impact of stanardized tests has always been a concern for me. i want to ask you this question while i have you all here. have you seen, and i'm not an advocate for or against, but have you seen any impact in terms of minority application rate or minority scores in

applications with regard to the consequence of common core coming into the curriculum at the pool level. has anyone seen anything there. is it too early to tell? but it's something you could watch for and look for because that's going to deal with some critics from minority communities that are concerned the testing or curriculum may decrease the number of graduates for high school. i see the chancellor leaning forward. >> i think we're actually, unlike some places in the country, are leaning the forward pretty strongly on common core. and as we go through the transition, recognize there's going to be white water in the numbers that emerge. and so our folks have been doing the surrogates for the stanardized testing. and the ans like psat and so far

forth, we're trying to use other variables to make sure we don't inappropriately exclude anybody, and the consequence, of color or of poverty. and we recognize it will smooth out on the back end. we just have to get through it first. >> anybody else on the panel? if not, i remind you the record is open for an additional 30 days. if any of you would like to supplement your presentations or elaborate on any of the questions asked of you, we encourage you to provide us with that information over the next 30 days. thank you, everyone. we'll reconvene at 1:00 for the afternoon panels. thank you. tomorrow, the funeral service for vice president joe

biden's son, beau, who died last week at the age of 46 following a fight with brain cancer. he served as delaware's attorney general and a member of his state's army national guard for more than a decade. serving a tour in iraq as well. he leaves behind a wife two children, two siblings his stepmother jill and his father the vice president. see it live saturday at 10:30 a.m. eastern on c-span. this weekend the c-span city's tour has partnered with time warner cable. >> one of most important american writers of the 20th century. she was given almost every literary award possible in her lifetime before she died except for the nobel prize. she was known for some of her

masterpieces like the professor's house, death comes from the archbishop and many others. she made a will with a few restrictions. she didn't want her letters to be published. left behind 3,000 letters that we know of. fortunate, the biggest collections were there. she left one other important thing. she left it to her executors. we ought to know more about her. >> an important historical figure in nebraska's history was soloman butcher. >> she was a photographer out in custer county. he took photos from about 1887,

1886 until early 1990s of homesteaders. was able to tell the story of this important development in american history. i'm going to show you one of my favorite images of the collection. it's actually the photograph of the chrisman sisters. it is four sisters who each took a homestead claim in custer county. this shows women homesteaders. it was the first time that women could own land on their own. it didn't belong to their husbands. it didn't belong to their fathers. single women could own their own land. that was a really big deal with the homestead act. each sister, each of the chrisman sisters took a homestead near their father's

ranch. they each built a small house on the homestead which was part of the homestead act. they would take turns working each other's farm. the sisters really pulled together and made it in nebraska. >> watch all of our events from lincoln, saturday evening at 6:00 on c-span2's boom tv. sunday afternoon on american history tv on c-span3. both chambers of congress are in recess today. the senate returns monday at 3:00 p.m. eastern to continue work on 2016 defense programs and policy. senators have been working on amendments but we don't expect any votes on those until tuesday. armed services committee chair john mccain has expressed hope the bill will be finished by the end of next week. follow the senate live on c-span2. the house returns tuesday to

continue work on 2016 spending for the transportation and housing departments. they still have a number of amendments to work through. with final passage expected early in the week. also expected, a measure that would reauthorize the commodity futures trading commission. see the house live on c-span. this sunday night at 8:00 eastern, first ladies influence and image. we'll look into the personal lives of jane pierce and harriett lain. jane loses her son in a train accident. she does not attend her husband, franklin's inauguration. spends time in the white house writing heartbreaking notes to her son. harriett lane was orphaned and lived with her uncle. later becomes hostess to the white house when he becomes president. the first to be called first lady in print.

jane pierce and harriett lane on c-span's original series first ladies, influence and image, examining the public and private lives of the women who filled the position of first lady and their influence on the presidency. from martha washington to michelle obama. as a complement to the series c-span's new book, first ladies, presidential historians on the lives of 45 iconic american women. it's available as a hard cover or an e-book, through your favorite bookstore or online book seller. we return to the all-day discussion held by the u.s. commission on civil rights. access to higher education for minority students. this panel looked at the academic and soeshcio-economic barriers and what can be done to close the achievement gap. this is an hour and a half. we are back on the record this afternoon for our third panel. i don't know how many of the

panelists were here earlier, but i will repeat, for the sake of housekeeping, how we will keep track of your presentations. each of you will have an opportunity to speak for seven minutes, time by the series of lights. green's go, yellow is two minutes to wrap up, and then red, i will ask you to stop so we can get to the next speaker and have an opportunity for the commissioners to ask you questions. first, i went to introduce the panelist, and then i will swear you win. our first panelist is from the cato institute for economic freedom. neal mccluskey. our second panelist is with the brookings institute. our third panelist is from the campaign for college opportunity. our fourth and final panelist is miss and neil from the american council of trustees and alumni. i ask each of you to raise your

right hand and swear or affirm the information you are about to provide is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief. is that correct? yes? ok, think you. mr.mccluskey? >> thank you for inviting me to speak with you. i'm neal mccluskey. i'm the director of the center for educational freedom at the cato institute, a nonprofit resource organization. my comments are my own and do not represent any position of the institute. while i will be speaking about ethnic and racial groups, all people are individuals. no sum of any person is only their race or ethnicity. i'm familiar with the gaps from studying american education as a whole, as well as researching the effects of contributors to student performance. my areas of focus will be choice, higher education costs and social capital. low income african-americans at least as of 2002 do not

necessarily attend college at lower rates than low income white students, at least among students who have graduated high school. the report did not look at hispanics. from 1969 until 1997, the rate fluctuated, but that said it is not clear what the trend has been since the late 1990's. while enrollment for low income african-americans may have been roughly consistent with whites, the schools blacks enrolled tended to be of lower quality. perhaps due in part to the quality of college or access there may be disparities in completion. according to work by cambron, low income students -- low income white students -- success in college is connected to preparation and success before college.

the national assessment of educational progress exams shows shrinking but not disappearing gaps when scores are broken down by poverty. there are many factors of achievement that need to be addressed, especially for low income african-americans and scores lower than other groups. one may be inadequate resources. research suggests this is not likely to be a major problem because of weak correlation between spending and outcome in spending and resources for black and white students have been largely equalized. rand reports other factors may be four times eight times as important as in school factors for test scores. perhaps there are culture issues at play. generally speaking with group values and orientations. one area where the seems to be no meaningful distention among groups is all believe education is very important, but this does not translate into equal enrollment or to completion. part of this stems from lower

academic outcomes. african-american families are more likely to be single-parent than their white families, making it more difficult for children to get regular high quality interaction with adults conducive to emotional and cognitive development. this likely stems from the practicing of slavery and jim crow crow. a potential proclivity stemming from generations of disenfranchisement is a sense among african americans education is very important but societal structures make overall success very difficult, potentially dampening motivation. possibly supporting this partial attributable to improving civil rights environment. feelings of powerlessness remain, however, and given high-profile cases of possibly egregious police misconduct -- can you hear me now? >> yes.

let's see. >> egregious police misconduct. [ laughter ]. >> great. you have read this before. >> i listen closely. >> as will a sub born economic gaps, it could grow. there is also significant difference in the way that white parents interact with their children, large bases of ses and the volume of words young children are exposed and the verbal interactions. they interact with children in ways that reinforce the expectations of their class. rather than pushing kids to in demand analytical thought. that said, everything from learning experiences outside of a child's home and how a child is discipline appear to affect outcomes. presence of quote, unquote middle-class parenting practices seem to have an effect. seem to be racial correlation, with african-american parents less likely to use preferable parenting behaviors. how can we mitigate these problems? it appears the overall cultures of schools with more white students is more conducive to african-americans, much more

likely tied with ses. numerous studies have found positive peer effects, presence in schools and social networks that allows people to get information about colleges. school choice can help. allowing low income students to access schools focused on college. random assignment studies showed private school choice program s have significant positive effect, especially for african-americans. one of the effects of aid programs help afford college. aid makes college more affordable. than if all students paid public prices. however, impair or evidence indicates colleges raise their prices. because aid enables them to. skyrocketing prices are not a decree of appropriations. they would have little effect on private institutions when room and board is included.

the prices are in excess of the rate per student. they have raised prices far in excess of state revenue. this is likely hit low-income students the hardest. the data appears to be disproportionally going to white students. this is problematic if minority students are most hurt by high sticker prices, which merit aid enables to rise. what's the track record of federal programs to smooth students' path to college? research programs found less than ideal research methods. these are indicative of other federal programs with no compelling evidence the ameliorated access problems. there is significant evidence student a programs have exacerbated price inflation. while it seems deficits low income children have before kindergarten would be elimb naughted ed-- eliminated by head start the research on large-scale government pre-k programs does not support the benefits,

finding they fade out. there are no easy answers to college access problems since many programs appear ineffectual. seems to work as school choice likely does so by increasing top-down control and minority students to seek out what they need are empowered. we'll see need groups to reach out to low income parents and provide services such as conversation, intensive day care. college counseling. the message needs to be loud and clear success is possible for all. thank you. >> mr. haskins? >> good afternoon and thank you for inviting me. it's a great pleasure and honor. i will like to open with comments about the disadvantage in american society and show why education plays such a crucial role in ameliorating this disadvantage and focus on three specific solutions. first, we start with test performance. neal has already gone over that, but it's extraordinary, the differences in test performance.

word knowledge begins even before the third year of life, but they are clearly evident by age 3. if anything, the schools increased the gaps during the k-12 school year. schools are not helping close that gap. the second thing, leading to achievement play a part in intellectual -- play a big role in the huge differences in household income, so that we have a huge discrepancy in household income. the average white lives in a household with 58,000 other income. the arches spanning 41,000, the average black 34,000. that is a 40% less income than a household with white families. we have even more impressive wealth gaps that are astounding. it declined substantially because of the effects of the recession.

almost all the wealth was in their house and they lost their house. i want to draw your attention to something that is especially important and that is the ability of parents to pass their advantages on to their children. consider the middle of distribution of parent income. middle 20%. roughly $50,000 to $80,000. if for black parents, their kids almost -- only 45% of them finish in the middle or higher. whereas 70% of white kids finish in the middle or higher. you see the same thing throughout the distribution. there are -- it is a huge problem for parents to pass their advantages onto their children. minority parents. let's focus on the role of education and fighting this disadvantage. i want to begin with the first chart. it is a complex chart. it is worthy of study. look at the two left bar graphs. these show what happens to people whose parents were in the bottom, below $30,000. the one of far left are kids

that did not go to college and the right bargraph are kids that did. as you can see from the same bottom of the distribution, the kids that achieved a college degree -- it changes their life course. look at the very bottom. 46% of the kids, if they don't go to college, will remain in the bottom. this is not equality of opportunity. whereas if they don't go to college, they have only a 10% chance. if they go to college, there is only a 10% chance of being in the bottom. i have been looking at studies all my life, there are very few impacts of that magnitude. that is a huge impact. there is no question a four-year college would make a big difference. there is good news on education. the national assessment of education progress shows some closing of the gap between whites and blacks and even less

between whites and hispanics. and, as you can see, there is a huge change in growth and minority enrollment in post secondary institutions starting in 1976 and almost continuous progress for all minority groups. that is good news. there is bad news, too. this chart shows from the very top which is the bottom 20% all the way up to the top which is 20%. first, we see that in stairstep fashion parents are able to pass their advantage on to their children so kids that are on wealthy families are more likely to graduate. look at the rates of the bottom chart that shows the ones that actually graduate. here you can see the graduation rates are a huge problem. kids enrolled but they do not graduate and that is a very big problem.

many of those kids wind up with debt and they don't get the degree that allows them to get more money to repay the debt so this is a really big problem we should look at carefully. so, there is some good news but it is mitigated. i want to show you this which is really intriguing and something you should pay attention to. what this shows is the college enrollment by parents income quartile for kid to finish in various places in their own achievement -- you can see both the parents income and the kids achievement test scores make a difference and it is progressive across the income groups. the top group, even kids in the bottom third by test scores do better than kids in the next quartile down and so forth. both parents income and achievement. here is another thing -- look at all the space, especially in the middle and top third between 100% and the level they are.

that is the ripe fruit to get those kids more likely to go to college. they appear to be prepared and preparation is a big deal. next chart. student aid, i agree with neal that student aid is not the key. i think we have a lot of student aid that increased dramatically, do kleined eded eded -- declined a little bit recently. but i don't think student aid is a huge problem. there are huge barriers -- economic preparation which is the single most important barrier. selecting a college and the application process and the ridiculous fafsa. that needs to be changed. and financing plays a minor part of the problem. and then a huge dropout rate we need to address. let me make three points about things i hope you will look into. the first is the college prep programs. there are a bunch of them. together they spend $1 billion. i don't think they are very successful.

they add -- had good evaluations but don't look good. they don't look good except for one which is math and science. i would look at that program. i would make a series recommendation about how we can use that billion dollars. fafsa -- it is ridiculous we have such a complex form. every kid has the fill it out and it is very difficult for them. their parents have a lot of trouble helping them fill it out. many have not been to college. that needs to be simplified. the administration promised to do it and neither did it. the last recommendation i would recommend may -- major reforms in the finance of colleges. they should make some of that money given to colleges contingent on the college's graduation rate. if we did that, i guarantee you the colleges would pay more attention to the problem at half the money was depended on success of the kids. >> thank you.

>> good afternoon. thank you for having me. my name is michelle, i service the campaign president for opportunity. i served on the california student aid commission which a words over $1.7 billion in calgrant aid to californians who need it in order to go to college. you have my written testimony. it is fairly long so i will try to highlight some key points. i was asked to speak about some of the research we have conducted on differences by race in california. i will do that. i actually have a couple of handouts from our just released reports on the state of higher education in california for latinos and blacks in our state that i hope you will have a chance to reference and review. you know, first of all, i would not be before you today if it weren't for the fact that there have been federal investment and state investment in my college opportunity. i'm the first in my family to go to college. i was only able to do so because i got a federally subsidized

loan. i got work-study. all of those things made my opportunity to go to college and earn a degree possible. that is exactly why i work for the campaign for college opportunity. we were founded by an unlikely alliance of business leaders, civil rights leaders and education leaders that believe strongly we needed an outside independent voice to advocate for higher education in our state, but also for some of the type of reforms that was pointed out in terms of ensuring we actually have not just enrolled students into college, but we get them to graduation. we have played a critical role in advancing policy and using our research to help advance that policy. focus really on the economy of california, but also what is good for students. sometimes that means we are on the same side of institutions that serve our students. sometimes it means we are pressuring them to do a better job at serving our students.

your review of this topic is really essential. i would argue this certainly is a civil rights issue of today. whether or not students have the opportunity to go to college is critical for low income students. it is harder for students to go to college today than ever before. only 30% of students in low income backgrounds go to college compared to 80% of their higher income counterparts. it is more likely for a "d' student to go to college and graduate with a high income student compared to a greater a plus student with lower income. that should be shameful in america today. if we are going to retain our position and try to recapture the position as a leader in producing four-year degrees, we will have to address issues of race in our country as we become more and more diverse. latinos represent 17% of america's population. blacks are 13%. asians are 5%.

non-hispanic whites are 63% by 2044 the nation will be even more diverse. demographic productions -- projection so non-hispanic whites will no longer be the largest ethnic group. making sure that college opportunity entertainment is equal across our racial and diverse communities is going to be essential. obviously, california is in many ways ahead of the curve in terms of that diversity. we are already a minority majority state. one in two kids that are under 18 are latino. and we are also to be commended for our world renowned university system -- the university of california, our 23 campus state university system. you heard from chancellor white earlier today. 112 colleges and a pretty generous financial aid program

targeted at student based need, not merit which unfortunately too many states in the nation focus on. our own research as part of this series of papers that we gave to you on the state of higher education in california demonstrates why race analysis still matters. latinos in our research, we found, are more -- the good news more and more are graduating from high school and going to college. as ron mentioned. unfortunately, they are disproportionately represented in at every sector of higher education. despite our expensive higher education system, latinos are not represented in relation to the numbers of the population at any of those institutions whether it is community colleges , for-profit colleges, independent colleges or the university of california. you can see in the chart just

what those statistics look like. latino students to go to college, the majority in role at a california community college. 65%. for blacks, i will not go into other findings. for blacks in higher education i wanted to point out a few things. we have seen improvements over time. improved high school graduation rate. more students are likely to graduate from high school today in california than they were in 1990. however, there is still a huge gap in terms of graduation rates when compared to other ethnic groups. you also see black students in our state are slightly overrepresented at california community colleges similar to latinos. they enroll in a community college. they are overrepresented at for-profit colleges. significantly underrepresented at the university of california. we found in this report that has been a decline in black

enrollment at the cal state system since the recession. some of the concerns are about college preparation. only one third of college california students come out of our high schools, having completed the course requirements, which you need to apply to a university of california or a cal state system. right off of that, 70% of latino students and blacks cannot even enroll or apply. their option is community college which highlights why improving outcomes for students at community colleges is so important. some of the findings you have before you show completion rates are really dismal. unfortunately, far too low. this is where most students are going so much more needs to be done. if federal funding has a goal of helping colleges and supporting diversity of population, my belief is funding needs to be allocated that better supports our four-year college system and holds them accountable for

improving outcomes. i know my time is up so i wanted to highlight some of the recommendations. we do believe we have to support enrollment for students, but completion is key. we should incentivize, we should measure performance by our university, not just enrolling. we give lots of federal funding for hispanic serving institutions and historically black university's. we should make that is sufficient funding but also make sure we hold those colleges accountable for their graduation rate. i agree with our fellow testifiers simplifying fafsa. we should expand income contingent loans to make sure college is affordable for students. with that, i will stop. >> thank you.

ms. neal? >> i must tell you your topic in the unique opportunity it gives -- do i need to turn something? sorry. let me start again. thank you, mr. chairman. i will tell you your topic and the unique opportunity it gives co to examine the civil rights intact as gatekeepers for title iv funds is inspired and long overdue. thank you. students need clear information about quality and financial stability to have the best chance for success. most especially those with limited financial means and limited familiarity with higher education. the accreditation system fails those students and i will pose an alternative. let's start with a little background. in passing the higher education act nearly 50 years ago, congress linked accreditation and federal student aid to prevent students from squandering taxpayers money as well as their own on diploma mills. it took the creditors who additionally provided voluntary

peer-reviewed of academic programs and made them gatekeepers of title iv. the accreditation needs to be a voluntary choice and became a costly mandate since virtually every school depends on title iv to survive. the ata provided that a creditors would be given a educational quality so it is no wonder the public and many members of congress believe mistakenly accreditation is a good housekeeping sale of approval. nearly 7000 colleges, universities and professional schools in the united states are accredited so they can receive title iv funds. in the 2012-13 school year, title iv amounted to $174 -- $170 billion. the united states spent more money for people in higher education than any other nation. yet, accreditation is not a reliable indicator of quality. the so-called good housekeeping

seal deceives students and consumers. it is essentially a confidential process which hides in institutions advantages and this disadvantages. let me his explain. harvard and yale is accredited. so is our lady of holy cross college, the university of texas at brownsville and armstrong atlantic. if i am a student at harvard, i'm nearly 100% likely to graduate in four years. if i go to hodges university in florida, based on the data from the 2007 cohort, i have zero chance of graduating in four years assuming i am a first time full-time student. if i go to our lady of holy cross college, i have a 5% chance of graduating in four years. among african-american students, a quarter of the student body, only 7% of first-time full-time students graduate within six years. at the university of texas at brownsville were 90% of the

students are hispanic, only 9% of first-time full-time students graduate within for years. it gives us a snapshot of what is happening. schools with sad stories of performance are accredited and receive title iv funds, but students have no way of knowing what they are getting into if they take out loans to pursue their dreams. student debt now exceeds $1 trillion and those most likely to be in debt, heavy debt are minority students. bottom line -- all students are hurt by accreditation which too often protects institutions that do not provide transparent information and do not deliver good outcomes. the negative impact is greatest on those students who typically have the most limited financial needs and are least familiar with our higher dictation works. it is not that they don't just graduate, it is they often leave with lots of student debt and few employment prospects.

this is morally indefensible and the blame should be placed on colleges. and their acreditors. that is not the end of the story. students are hurt because accreditation standards often lead to higher costs with very limited benefits. over the years, accrediting associations has been quite happy to exhort quality colleges to spend more money. financial burdens are imposed with no obvious return. for example, campbell university in north carolina with a 23% minority population was placed on probation some years ago because it standard faculty teaching load was 15 hours per week. the accreditor thought 13 was the proper load. the school made the classes larger instead of the smaller classes students expected. there were 60 or more. what they don't value is also instructive.

they don't assess whether a school is put into place a rigorous core curriculum, a prescribed limited and far less costly set of course requirements that point the way towards completion. an kwal -- annually, 1,100 institutions across the country. morehouse college are two of only 23 schools to receive a rating for the general education programs, ensuring exposure to financial subjects. do they get any special shout outs? no. in fact, schools that have do-it-yourself curriculum are more likely to be praised. what does the school do if it is being abused by an ac creditor? many over the years have criticized the interference of acreditors. they raise concerns about their standards which invariably raises costs without clear benefit. these questions are legitimate, but the fact is institutions in

these situations have no place to go. the regional monopoly other of accreditors have no choice. if they're being disserved. just one example recently of how accreditation also interferes with innovation. in ohio, there is a school. tiffen. some years ago, faced with the challenges of a higher ed marketplace, and made available online programs for those who cannot pay the tuition and was able to show proven student learning. the higher learning commission decided to second-guess for-profit partnerships and they tiffen were forced to put an end to the online innovation. many students, at least 40% minority with 90% eligible for pell grants, were left without an affordable educational option. we need to put an end to the existing system and create a more transparent and far less costly way. i'm happy to report this is being done at the state level, most particularly in florida

where higher education leaders were frustrated by the system and instead put into place an annual accountability report of metrics. because of this, we know minority students and their families have been empowered more than ever before. i will be happy to talk more about those details. by way of example, in 2010, the university of florida which was outlined in this accountability report, proved to be one of four flagship institutions given the higher marks on measures of equity serving low income and minority students by education trust. more money is not the answer. greater accountability is. it is time we eliminated the deeply flawed education system and replaced it with a transparent system of accountability that rewards schools that do right by their students. thank you so much. >> would you like to open up the questioning? >> thank you. mr. haskins from the brookings

institution. >> sorry. >> it's okay. common mistake. the achievement of the baccalaureate degree, the key to social and economic mobility. your figures indicate that is indeed the case. do you have any -- how can you explain why that is? >> it is because they actually learned something in college. they made contact with people that helped them later. when you apply for a job, it is helpful to have a four year degree. it is something researchers call selection. that means a kid that goes to college -- you saw the data on

how many dropout -- once they finish, it is not only because they learn more. there is a whole complex set of features they have. they stick to it and work hard when things get tough. those are selection affects. they are not directly measurable and not measured, but they do contribute. college in that sense is a sorting device. i think we can see the same thing and are seeing the same thing with two-year colleges and degrees and apprenticeships. four-year colleges is not the complete answer. >> no, they are not. but, we do need to increase in sheer numbers the number of successful graduates of four-year institutions. do we not? >> absolutely. not only that, we need to track them to figure out what happens.

that's been a problem. we don't have great information about what happens when they leave. so, a number of institutions are creating the ability to follow students to figure out if they get a job, whether wages are and so forth. that is the kind of thing if you implemented the kind of suggestion i made of making some of the state aid to college contingent on the performance. we need to know what the performance is. >> you said as much as half of the aid -- >> there is no scientific formula. i made it up. i think a substantial amount of aid. how would you feel if the whole -- all of our spending at the federal level or state level were based on no information about the results? that is what we have been doing and it does not make sense. >> understood. i just wanted to know what 50% came from. when someone from the brookings institution says 50%, i thought well, i guess. i would hate for the governor of california to get that

information and think he could change overnight from a system based on enrollment to a system -- a funding system based on at least overnight -- >> it is not 50% but here is my point -- organizations that are being held accountable do not like it. if they realize it is too late, they have to do something. they want 5% of the money where 10%, it ought to be substantial. we could start with five or 10 but we have to make them more accountable. >> i don't disagree with you. ms. siqueiros i know you are deeply familiar with the practices that work and the practices that don't work when it comes to -- you both are able to assess the performance gaps and you have done a lot of

work in terms of assessing what helps and what doesn't help. part of what we are struggling with here is is this an issued that can be addressed successfully? i think the answer to that is yes, but i would like to know what you think the answer is and if you could delineate some practices that you have found through your research that are helpful in addressing these various forms of achievement gaps. >> the first thing i would say is that data matters. ron mentioned that we do quite a bit of investing and we don't know what the end result is. we don't analyze data in a comprehensive way. i think what works are institutions that use data in very proactive ways to change results. you heard earlier from cal state fullerton. they're actually one of the

colleges we profile because they have a really aggressive agenda around closing the gap. if you are not analyzing what is happening at your institution by race and then how are you ever going to figure out solutions for addressing that? i think they are a perfect example of innovation in that process. we also profiled, as we released the state of higher ed for black students in california, the minority college collaborative which is an effort launched by professors at san diego state university that focuses on actual using research on what works for african-american students and helping to evaluate and assess community colleges to implement practices that can help support completion. for institutions. they point out a lot of the research is done in terms of what works for students at four-year universities. you need really good data. you need leadership at institutions that care about closing the gaps and are not

afraid of talking about how to close it. for students by race. you absolutely need incentive that forces them to do that. we know statewide cal state has a graduation initiative that is about closing the gap. i don't see how you change these results without doing that. there is obviously the k12 rule. we have to make sure more high schools are better preparing students. race matters because most of our latino and black students in california attend low performing schools. is not just a cultural phenomenon that latino and black students do not go to college and graduate at higher levels. they go to the least performing schools where they have the least prepared teachers. there are institutional factors that have to be addressed and those can only be addressed through policy and funding. >> thank you.

>> commissioner h,eriot? >> thank you, mr. chairman. i don't know if we under invest in higher education in the absolute sense. i'm really worried we over invest higher education relative to other kinds of investment in human capital. vocational education -- not everybody wants to go to college. many people prefer other kinds of vocations, learning. not every subject is best taught in a classroom situation. i'm wondering if any of you have any comment on these other kinds of vocational education, other kinds of investment in terms of human capital. are we underinvesting there? >> i think that is an excellent point and it is important this cannot just be about higher education.

there is a lot that happens before that. the k-12 part is important. if you look at a lot of other countries, they do have much more robust vocational tracks than we do. if you don't want to go to a school where you have to take a liberal arts course and maybe you can get your engineering degree and you want to do something considered vocational -- that term has negative connotations unfortunately -- but you can do that. there is a danger with that. if you think about germany, for a long time you took a test and you are tracked into that. you don't want a system where your future is determined for you by a test. we want one where you have an interest or ability to do something, that takes you away from a traditional college, you should be able to do that. we see that within school choice. there are chartered schools where you can learn everything

right down to underwater welding, which i don't have any experience with, but i understand it is pretty lucrative. you can get lots of valuable skills. skills that cannot be easily outsourced. there is something else important which is that we have a lot of money going into higher education. by all indications, it is not translating into more learning. there is inflation, the arms race and amenities and buildings. i think it is hard to make the argument we need more money. maybe we needed better targeted. we need to allow people to choose what they think is best for them even before college. >> i agree with all that. we should place more emphasis on non-four-year, but all kinds of degree programs. this brings up another interesting topic which is online work. there was a lot to be done online and a lot now being done. people that qualify for various

certificates based on online has a real impact on their debt that they carry away. also, the programs where you work and get practical experience at the same time, these programs start in high school. georgia and wisconsin have ideal programs that get kids started in high school, getting experience with work. we have about 5000 academies across the country that do the same thing and there is high-quality research that shows those kids -- the boys in those programs, eight years later, they make $2,000 more and 20% more likely to be married and live wg their children. these programs -- by the way, on the point of the four-year schools -- the kids in the career academies have the same probability to go on to a four-year institution as kids who did not participate in the program. it is not necessarily shut them

out. these programs, yes, they need to be looked into. they should be a part of what the commission focuses on. >> my fear is -- i agree -- we don't want to follow the german track. there are a lot of people out there who really are bored to death in the classroom and would really prefer jobs, that are -- what we call disparagingly vocational education but that bias should not be something we cater to. >> i have a few questions here. you mentioned that race matters a lot in this context still. there is an overrepresentation of -- it might have been latino students or minority students at for-profit schools. could you clarify that? >> yeah, so for black students

in california, if you look at the chart in front of you -- we analyzed the young adults in the population and we see they are overrepresented in for-profit colleges for that age group and underrepresented at the four-year universities and slightly overrepresented at community colleges. that is significant for black students in particular in our state attending for-profit colleges. we know that the regional issue -- we have a growing population in the inland empire. there is only a couple public universities. if you drive down the 10 freeway heading east, you will see for-profit colleges up and down. we know some of the for-profit colleges do intense marketing and outreach and handholding which are things students who are first generation going to college need.

in some ways, they are looking for a direct way to get trained into a particular job. they are giving a particular guide post for that. those are some of the practices that community colleges don't have the resources to necessarily do, but those are the things that work for students who don't have anybody else helping them to a four-year university. we see high numbers of latino students at for-profit colleges, too. it's a common thing. >> yesterday, it was brought up that many of these for-profit schools end up with large amounts of students that end up not completing and have substantial debt. in fact, some of these schools target those students for the purpose of attaining some of the financial aid. some of them that might complete the work find their education is

not what they thought it was or they cannot transfer it over because the credentials are not transferable. do you know anything about that? >> this is what is really disturbing. you have essentially for-profit colleges and universities, some of which are actually good performers. i don't want to make a blanket statement. some of which really do target enrollment because they are completely publicly funded. so, the idea that they are private institutions is really concerning when they rely on students that are low income, will qualify for grants, qualify for these federal subsidized loans or private loans. so, if -- i think there should be a federal expectation if these institutions are receiving federal money that may have some skin in the game. if they are being funded entirely through federal and state dollars, they don't have any skin in the game in terms of

producing better outcomes for some students. we find that disturbing. as a member of the california student aid commission, we instituted the legislation that limited cal grants to institutions that have a high cohort loan default rate for their students. that means a lot of their students graduated or not, but not able to pay their loans and had a very high, or very low six-year graduation rate. there are mechanisms by which we can put minimum requirements. this was done in california in response to the recession and the fact there are limited dollars. you have to pick and choose how to disperse them. it is good practice. it is why corinthian in particular has been so affected, because many of those colleges in our state were kicked out of

receiving cal grants. if they are receiving public dollars and that is the only mechanism by which they survived we should be a little concerned. >> yes? >> i want to add to that. i would agree that all for-profits are not superb, but i think it would be unfair to single them out for single-digit graduation rates. as i indicated, we are looking at many nonprofits at single-digit graduation rates. the issue is one across the board and i think it would be wrong to single out one sector for that problem. >> thank you. >> if you look at these different secretaries, therey sies -- sectors, there seems to be a correlation between the outcomes and who they are serving. a lot of this appears to have a lot to do with the preparations of people who attend those schools before the even get to college.

there are plenty of atrocious for-profit schools. if you look at community colleges, they have terrible outcomes and there seems to be a connection between the preparation of the students that go there. this is also a k-12 problem. to a very large extent. we're often giving aid to people who may not be ready for college. people that are mediated are less likely to finish. that is something that needs to be focused on whenever we talk about higher ed. what is going on from birth to high school graduation. >> there are no perfect players in this entire system. my recollection from yesterday was that in terms of students that have default on their loans, it is well represented students coming from for-profit universities. it was something like 47% of all of the defaults in my memory serves correctly. clearly, there is something happening there as it relates to these funding issues that merits a little closer attention.

not everyone should be painted with the same brush. >> just in response, i don't disagree that preparation in k-12 matters, but colleges should be serving the students they have, not the ones they wish they had. i think it gets to the question of if you have students that are coming in less prepared, what are you doing as an institution to better provide service to them? me know there are institutions and community colleges that are addressing remediation in a way that is very effective. so, i would just push back a little bit that it cannot just be k-12. there is a responsibility for institutions as they serve students. >> mr. haskins, i had a question about one of the charts you showed us. i think it was chart number three which shows latino

college attendance exceeds the african-american college attendance. earlier today, we had testimony from professor flores, who indicated some of this might be pure demographics. the growing population of latinos means naturally, there will be greater representation in colleges, not necessarily that we have come up with a magic program that has put more latinos into the path of college. do you have any opinion on that and how that might be represented? >> it could be true. i'm not positive. my charts are percentages. it is not just the numbers. it is the percentages that have been coming up. percent of enrollment. that does indicate that hispanics are in fact more likely -- a rate of increase of being in college is greater than for blacks. >> do you know why that might

be? >> i have opinions about it, there is some research about it. family background makes a big difference. the quality of high school makes a big difference. one thing that has happened in the hispanic community, apparently -- people in chicago have talked about this -- there has been a change within the family. many hispanic families, at least in chicago and other places i have heard of, don't necessarily pressure their kids to go to school. they want them to earn money, contribute to the family. they were actually the force that kept kids from going to school and that appears to be changing a lot. parents come to realize how important colleges. they want what is best for the kids. the views of parents are changing. that could be another factor. >> i could attest to that. i'm from chicago. it was something not just in chicago, but a lot of immigrant

latino families in particular would encourage their children when the family needed it, to step out of school and help the family. there is an overwhelming effort to educate our parents about that. it is a challenge, but more folks are talking about that issue. >> that is a good factor as to why hispanics are increasing more rapidly than blacks. >> you had some questions? >> we were talking -- thank you, mr. chair -- we were talking a moment ago about default rates. and for-profit colleges and universities. my recollection is there are certain limits or guidelines placed on our public colleges and universities where if they reach a certain default range, there are penalties attached to include loss of government money. are our for-profit colleges and universities subject to the same

default rates? the same kind of penalties? i seem to recall they are not. >> in california, the rules do apply across the board. there is -- in california, they do. in terms of federal policy, i'm not quite sure. >> i was inquiring about federal policy. >> i'm pretty sure it is the same for all schools. they are changing how they calculate the default rate but i think it is the same. regardless. as long as you are taking title iv money. where there is maybe a difference, i would have to look. there is a question on how you uncorporate gi bill money. i don't think it is connected to the default rate.

if i am correct, there is no difference. to my knowledge. >> thank you. >> i can say within the accreditation system of the for-profits, they have been held to certain baseline requirements that the nonprofits have not. in terms of certain basin -- basic rekwierm ss ss -- requirements, higher expectations for for-profit. it is been up for grabs as the what was acceptable and what was not for nonprofits. there is no baseline for graduation rates. yes, you get money or yes, you don't. although there are baselines for for-profits. >> thank you. >> commissioner? >> thank you. so, mr. haskins just testified their recommendations at brookings is to take programs to

reform them and create a more general grant program to provide that kind of support. i was wondering, ms. siqueiros, whether you also -- what is your response to that recommendation? sorry. >> quite frankly, i have not analyzed a lot of those programs myself. my concern with that recommendation would be that in many instances, it is those programs that have really high graduation rates for underrepresented students. i think just more research would be needed before i could feel comfortable. i do think that we have to get to a place where resources reach more students. some of the challenges are those programs only reach a small number of students. we need to get to a place as we have a student body that the majority now is first-generation

-- all of the students could benefit from those kinds of services that is provided. how do we scale that kind of intervention? we know there is limits, kind of intervention and we know there are limits i think one of the things that crews at cal state fullerton said is what they do is use the data to identify what we do need is scale. we need more of the students to be able to access some of the benefits these programs provide.

>> i got the impression from the most recent testimony from this panel, at least some people believe that we're spending enough on higher education support. you testify in your written testimony that we at least need to consider spending more on pell grants and making them more available throughout the year to help people who go to summer school sort of the more nontraditional students i'm wondering what your view is about whether we're spending enough on financial aid and where you would put it if we were to try to reorganize what we're spendinger or try to spend more.

that's a tough question. the research is pretty clear that the pell grant while it's obviously grown in size and in terms of cost for the federal government because our population growth has not kept pace with the cost of getting an education it's r it's harder to go to school full-time when they do go to school, many of them have to work. making it available, again would obviously better support those resources in california, it's clear we're not spending enough on higher education. >> there's a wage premium that's different than it was in the 60s and 70s before you could get a high school degree and that was enough to put you in middle class life and get a job that you could sustain over a career.

that's not the case today. we know whether it's a vocational degree or a four-year degree, that's what makes the difference in students' abilities today to get into the middle class. if we care about growing our middle class i don't see how you can do it without investing more especially getting low-income students to be able to afford college full-time. i think making pe will l year round is a good first step so more eligible students apply and get the financial aid they're already entitled to is a second step. those would be the more immediate recommendations. >> i had one more add on. mr. haskins' slides show there's a decrease in work study if i read the slide correctly. i'm wondering if that's a concern that we're spending less on work study.

a prior panel had noted they felt that the chancellor noted that he felt one of the most important things was to address the fact that we don't have the traditional old fashioned kids 18 years old just out of high school going to college. but now we have older students with families who do need to work. and so one of the biggest challenges for successful getting to a degree is can you stay in college if you're working full-time? >> i think work study is critical. the more likely they're going to feel like they belong. the more likely they're going to succeed and get to graduation. and work study helps to do that. i think part of it is federal funding. the other part is northeastern university is a good example of

a public/private partnership where they have students that that start working because they're going to work. they're going to school part-time and working part-time in their chosen field. it's not like having a job at the gap. it's having a job, you know as an intern and engineering company. where that company actually covers some of the cost. so i would just say that, you know, it may absolutely be increasing federal funding but also how do we increase, you know, public/private partnerships that want you know, good quality interns they can potentially grow in their leadership and address the fact that students do need to work. so is it better to have them working in their field? or working on campus? yes. >> couple of questions. as i mentioned a number of

slides i saw that we're spending trillions of dollars spent trillions of dollars with marginal effect. as i mentioned before, particularly troubled by over -- sorry 23-year period. there could be a lot of reasons for that, but i hope if you spend several hundred billion dollars on trying to narrow the gap, you would narrow more than two points and that we wouldn't have to wait to actually more than 300 years for that gap to completely erase. if we go by today's measurements taking more than 300 years. i'm fine because it's not my money, at least not directly if we want to spend more money on something, but i'd hope we do so smartly. i'm -- i was struck by the fact that there are really no measurements, no transparency, no accountability standards. and yet, we're going to give more money to demonstrably failed programs. because it's not doing anything.

it doesn't seem to be closing any gaps. if you were to suggest a policy prescription for narrowing achievement gaps, increasing college access, persistence and sustainability, would it be to, a, increase funding, or increase transparency or accountability standards. which one of those is the most effective of those three? >> i think they're all -- >> well you know, given the fact that money is something. and we're talking about money. i know we got all kinds of money. the chinese government's money frankly. it's not our money we don't have any money. i'd like to know how do we get this stuff done the smartest way i'm interested in outcomes more than inputs at this particular point. ms. neil? >> yes, i want to certainly

agree with you on that. as i indicated earlier, we're spending two times per student average of any other industrialized country. with worse results. we're looking at four-year graduation rates that now hover around 40%. and so i think rather than just looking at this as a problem that needs more federal dollars thrown at it, we need to be looking at ways of holding the institutions accountable. we've heard more skin in the game. i think that's an important issue. these institutions need to have more skin in the game. and we need to basically credit those that are succeeding and not credit those that are not. as i've indicated students will not know the difference between a school is doing well and schools that aren't having learning gains. and this is where we need to improve the existing accreditation system which essentially rewards schools no matter how they're doing. doesn't matter they still get title 4. so this is why i think we need to move to a basically, a

transparency system, which would allow institutions to show they're financially stable, require them to show certain key metrics of performance. and last but not least would insist in order to get title 4 money, they would have to show student learning gains. because at the end of the day it's not simply a question of giving someone a degree or giving them a piece of paper. it's actually showing that students have gained value with money that they have spent. and study after study whether we look at academically adrift by the national assessment of adult literacy literacy. we're showing the vast amount are emerging after spending lots of money many of them in debt without the skills that are needed to be effective in the workplace. the system is skewed in favor of access and not in favor of student success once they are there. >> no, no, go ahead.

>> i agree with everything she said. she didn't exactly say this, but accountability, i think, is key. we're going to have problems with money. we haven't talked about it here, but i do a lot of work on federal debt and deficit. and we've already started cutting spending on children's programs in the last two years which we had not done for the previous 30 years. there's a real issue of how much money the federal government's going to be able to spend. and the states are if anything even more financially strapped. so what we have to learn to do is to do better with what we have now and accountability is definitely the answer. so we need to accountability in the k-12 schools, we need accountability in the community colleges. we need accountability at the university. and 2 of the 3 recommendations i made you were accountability recommendations. i think it's very important that we spend about $1 billion now, for example on these college prep programs that are supposed to be focused on low-income kids and very good