hearing will come to order. good morning, everybody. i want to welcome my witnesses, say how much i appreciate your thoughtful testimony. i've read it all. there's some pretty compelling stories. this is, from my standpoint a very important hearing. as i look back at the laws written designed to protect people who have the courage to come forward within government to below the whistle, to tell the truth, to highlight problems of waste and abuse and corruption potential criminal activities within the department of agencies, we have a number of laws. and they date back quite a few years, and with mr. divine's testimony, i added some new. i didn't realize it went back to the year 1912 followed bit civil reform act of 1978 and the whistle blower protection act of 1989 and the whistle blower act of 2012. and yet we still have problems.

my own experience with this having come to government pretty late in life, started really with the events of the secret service. then as we started looking at reports being issued and written by the office of the inspector general, the fact that there was retaliation, or certainly evidence of retaliation against members of that inspection team for being for a threat. and then followed up recently, we had a border and protections agent chris cabrera testifying on information to homeland security, but also testifying under oath as all of you will be doing here today achlt. a couple months later, he testified on march 17 2015. a few months later another hearing on may 15 2015, this

committee was made aware that agent cabrera was being scheduled for a hearing in front of the internal affairs. now, i raised the issue with still deputy chief of u.s. border patrol ron patello and i stated because of my lutheran background, i'll put the best construction on things, and i assumed that hearing of internal affairs was being concerned about what he brought to the table and wanting to correct any errors within the border protection agency. i'men not sure that was the case, fortunately, because we highlighted in our hearing that internal affairs hearing with mr. cabrera was canceled that same day rather abruptly. i have a certain sense that wasn't so innocent. they really had something else in mind with that hearing. so these issues are very serious. as a result, my office has set up a website, whistleblowerat

ronjohnson.gov. we've already had 30 whistle blowers contact our office, and with us here are more that contacted our office and i'm mindful by testimony that probably the greatest oriskanyrisk any whistle blower incurs is when they do it in federal government. the issue here is not to adjudicate the issues you've raised. that will occur through a process or procedure. the purpose of this hearing is to highlight so the american people understand, so that this committee understands that once an individual steps forward and puts their career at risk, expose themselves to the type of retaliation that is, unfortunately, all too common we want to hear what type of

retaliation is inflicted on individuals and what forms the retaliation takes. that's really the purpose of this hearing. i do want to caution people there may be some areas where some testimony might come close to revealing classified information or law enforcement sensitive. i want to make sure we don't breach those restrictions. but with that, again i want to welcome all of our witnesses. i appreciate your courage. i appreciate the courage of anybody willing to step forward and risk that kind of retaliation, and i'm looking guard to hearing your testimony and answers to our questions. with that, senator harper. >> thank you senator. it's a pleasure to meet all of you and welcome you here today. thank you for your service in different arenas, and particularly those of you who have served in uniform and have seshd served in uniform in our country in the past. mr. chairman i appreciate your attention to highlighting

situations. too many of our federal employees have faced these things even today, and when they blow the whistle on waste and behavior, they are our issues. you heard how important the work is that the general accountability office is to our committee. i'm reminded today that many times it's actually federal employees and contractors within the government that first draw attention to issues or wrongdoings in their agencies. they're just as invaluable and just as vital a part of our team as we work together to make discovery of ours even better. without people willing to stand up and say something is wrong when they see that it's wrong, it would be much harder to fight abuse. when people stand out, we want

to make sure they know they will not be punished for doing so. i have been a long-time proponent for oversight, but i protect fellow whistle blowers. a few years ago, a whistle blower in my state contacted the dover office about mismanagement-based mortuary. it's actually the mortuary for our country where we will bring home the remains of our fallen heroes. my office was able to draw attention to both these issues, the retaliation the whistle blowers were facing. at the end of the day the office of special counsel and investigation led to disciplinary action not against the whistle blowers but against several people in positions at the base within the mortuaries of their top officer, the mortuary colonel. the reinstatement of whistle blowers and others there. i was struck by the courage of these brave whistle blowers who risked so much.

i was also struck by the group work done by the office of special counsel whose responsibilities include looking fout out for the whistle blowers and making sure they get a fair shake, as well as the taxpayers. this committee has ways of looking out for whistle blowers and stopping abuse. testimony from whistle blowers was critical to a hearing investigation led by former senator tomko burn coburn, former senator tom levin and the university of pennsylvania which is responsible for reviewing thousands of hearings. that hearing was powerful and proved critical to improving accountability and oversight of this program. the whistle blowers played an important role in both the investigation and the hearing. a number of women very brave and courageous women really put everything on the line, their jobs, their livelihood, their lives to tell us the truth. without them there would have been no investigation, there would have been no hearing and the fraud committee they were

shining the light on may never have been uncovered. so i believe in whistle blowers and i'm grateful to whistle blowers and we need to make sure they're treated like we would want to be treated if they were in their place. those are examples that whistle blowers can play. the special counsel has made significant progress the last couple years under the leadership of special counsel karen lerner in protecting whistle blowers. whistle blowers who came to the office of special counsel have increased since 2007. not just by 100%, not by 200%, not by 300%, not by 500 percent%, but by 600%. congress has additional work to do to make sure individuals can feel free to speak out without retaliation. we passed the most recent law three years ago.

in 2012 i was happy to pass that legislation to the special counsel to encourage whistle blowers to muster the courage and when they do make sure they're not retaliated against. before we go further though, i would be remiss if i did not note, and the chairman already has, that whistle blowers today have retaliation claims that have not been fully substantiated and cases that are still pending. i'm glad we have the opportunity to hear from all of you. we welcome you here today, but there are possibly some cases involving ongoing litigation and investigation. they can do this through the office of special counsel. the merit system protection board, the officer of inspector generals and the federal courts, and i hope today's hearing is not seen as prejudging the claims made here today.

there will also be some subjects the witnesses raise that we will not hear today. i hope that we continue our oversight of this subject, and i hope we will, we'll have the opportunity to hear from the agencies involved, especially from the office of special counsel. that said, i nonetheless hope we can learn some valuable lessons here today about the experiences that our whistle blowers face, what we can do to better support them and how we can improve both the climate and the process for whistle blowers in the future. again, i appreciate the hearing. mr. chairman i'm especially pleased to join you as a member of the newly made whistle blower caucus. thank you. >> thank you, senator, and this is just the first step. the purpose is to highlight the form of retaliation and what happens, and we will continue to delve into the subject with other hearings. with that it is the tradition of this committee to swear in witnesses, so if you could all

rise and raise your right hand. do you swear the testimony you will give before this committee will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? >> i do. >> i do. >> please be seated. our first witness is lieutenant colonel jason amarine. lieutenant colonel amarine serves in the united states army and led a special forces team in afghanistan in 2001 for which she received a purple heart and bronze star which denotes heroism regarding contact with a known enemy. lieutenant colonel amarine has raised concerns about higher office. lieutenant colonel amarine. >> thank you, sir. warren weinstein is dead, colin

rutherford kate colin. they remain hostages in pakistan. i used every resource available but i failed them. one of those resources was my constitutional right to speak to members of congress. you passed the military whistle blower protection act to ensure such access. but after i may have prekdotected disclosures to congress the army removed me from my job and sought to cartourt martial me. as a soldier i love the constitution of the united states in order to have voices that could be heard. you, the congress, were my last resort. but now i'm labeled a whistle blower a term that's both radioactive and derogatory. i'm before you because i did my duty, and you need to ensure all

in uniform could go on doing their duty without fear of reprisal. let me be clear. i never blamed my situation on the white house. my loyalty is to my commander in chief as i support and defend the constitution. whatever i say today is not as a republican or a democrat, but as a soldier without allegiance to any political parties. in early 2013, my office was asked to help get sergeant bergdahl home. we audited the recovery effort and determined that the reason the effort failed for four years was because our nation lacked an organization that can synchronize the efforts of all government agencies to get our hostages home. we also realized there were civilian hostages in pakistan that nobody was trying to free so we added them to our mission. i assessed both were caused by an evolutionary misstep, the stovepipe of our federal agencies. the department of defense faces

problems in the '80s as navy army air force and marines operated independently of one another, leading to the gold dts water nichols act of 1986. transformation on that scale literally takes an act of congress. to get the hostages home, my teamwork took three lines of effort, make a trade and get the taliban back on the negotiating table. my team was quick to address the latter two of those tasks but fixing the government process was obviously beyond our capability. recovering sergeant bergdahl was a critical step at carrying out our commander in chief's objective to ending the longest war in american history, so i went to congress in order to repair a functional bureaucracy to support our president. it caused the army to place me under criminal investigation. i spoke to representative duncan hunter because he's a member of

the house armed services committee. i needed him to bolster our efforts with two simple messages. the hostage recovery effort was broken, and because of that five hostages and a prisoner of war had little hope of escaping pakistan. it started to work. his dialogue with the department of defense led quickly to the appointment of deputy and secretary of defense lumpkin as hostage coordinator for the pentagon. this step enabled the d.o.d. on act precisely on the bergdahl trade once the taliban sought a deal. but the slain hostages were forgotten during negotiations. i continued to work with duncan hunter to try to get them home. he set up a meeting between my office and the fbi, and then the fbi complained to the army that information i was sharing with them was classified. it was not. the department of defense and inspector general has since reviewed the information through my d.o.d. complaint, and

confirmed it was not classified through a joint staff review. but still i'm under investigation. a terrible irony, a horrible irony, is that my security clearance was suspended on january 15 the day after warren weinstein was killed. we were the only effort trying to free the civilian hostages in pakistan pakistan, and the fbi succeeded in ending our efforts the day after a u.s. drone strike killed warren weinstein. am i right? is the system broken? layers upon layers hid the extent of our failure from our leaders. i believe we all failed the commander in chief by not getting critical advice to him. i believe we all failed the secretary of defense who likely never knew the extent of interagency dysfunction. but now i'm considered a whistle blower for raising these issues. there has been no transparency to the army's investigation of protected communications with representative hunter. the army would not even confirm

why i was being investigated for the last five months until this week, and they only did that because of today's hearing. danielle bryan and randy smithberger on the project government oversight has been a godsend, and representatives jackie hunter set up for me where no one else in congress did until today. i'm truly grateful for the opportunity to testify before you. the outpouring of support from fellow service members has been humbling. worse for me is that the cadets i taught at west point now officers rising from the ranks are reaching out to me to see if i'm okay. i fear for their safety when they go to war, and now they fear for my safety in washington. is that the endureing message we want to send? and we must not forget warren

weinstein is dead while colin rutherford, josh boyle kaitlyn coleman and her child remain hostages. who is fighting for them? thank you. >> thank you, lieutenant colonel. thanks for your services. i will point out there isrepresentative hunter is in our audience, so thank you sir. johnson special agent johnson has raised concerns about national security and criminal risks in the eb-5 program to her management and to the special options general. >> it seems we're all going to do that today. chairman johnson, ranking member carpenter and distinguished members of the committee i appreciate the opportunity to speak before you guys today surrounding the issues of

obstacles with whistle blowing. i am a special agent. i've been with hsi for about 11 years. i've been responsible for investigating large transnational organized crime groups involved in money laundering, narcotics and world class smuggling. i won't bore the committee with accommodations, although i have received some of the highest honors in my department and i have yearly promotions. after displaying gross mismanagement and fraud the national security risks and public corruptions around the eb-5 project i was subjected to a significant amount of harassment and retaliation. with the approval of my chain of command, i began investigating the eb-5 regional center and u.s. investor. some of the violations investigated surrounding the project included title 18 statutes of fraud, money laundering, bank and wire fraud. in addition i discovered ties to

organized crime in high-ranking politicians and officials who received high-ranking promotions. i disclosed this to my management, and officers of the inspector general, specific examples of national security risks associated with eb-5 and the project under investigation. some of those security risks coincided with what the cia the fbi and the sec have already discovered as well. during the course of the investigation, i discovered that eb-5 applicants from china russia pakistan malaysia has been approved in as little as 16 days. the files lacked the basic law enforcement queries and that was obvious by applicants 526s. i found over 800 operational eb-5 regional centers throughout the u.s. this was a disturbing number for me since the u.s. only allows 10,000 applications per year. i couldn't identify how they

were holding the regional center accountable or how they were tracked once they were inside the u.s. in addition, a complete and detailed account of the funds that went into the eb-5 project was never produced after several requests related to that investigation. from the onset of the investigation, my management began getting complaints from outside agencies and high-ranking officials. as a result, i was removed from the investigation and it was ultimately shut down and closed. shortly after, i was escorted by three supervisors from my desk and out of my permanent duty station. i was not permitted to access my case files or personal items. i was moved initially over 50 miles in direct violation of title 5. my weapon and credentials were taken against the agency's firearms policy. my government vehicle was confiscated. access to the building and all

government data bases was revoked. i was told i couldn't carry or own a personal weapon, which is a constitutional rights violation. i've been placed on awol on six separate occasions four of which were during my interviews with the aig and the osc. when an adoption social worker tried to contact and verify employment, she was told i had been terminated for a criminal offense. i almost lost my one-year-old child. i report tieo a building that how'ses inmates and has the highest homicide and transient population in the u.s. i am continually placed in dangerous situations with no way to protect myself or others. management has willfully obstructed me from competing for any promotions and injured my prospects to promote. lastly, after being contacted by the office of the inspector general on eb-5 case and designated as a witness, the aic

falsely accused me of misconduct during a border evaluation in 2011. the result of the -- it resulted in a termination recommendation. the allegations surrounding the termination have since been proven unfounded by the osc and the agency has recognized that. opr produced an inaccurate, biased report in an attempt to terminate my employment and remain in contact with the same chain of command who shut down the eb-5 case. this is a direct complicate of interest. in 2011 the complaint was used after the agency was unable to substantiate any allegations against me and as a tool to ensure i couldn't testify for the oig or continue the investigation with the eb-5 program. there are no policies in place which limit the disciplinary actions against agents. agents are placed on administrative restrictions for years at a time, which is a

gross mismanagement and a waste when these agents are needed to support cases and protect the u.s. i was slandered to the point that i couldn't perform my job because of malicious and false gossip gossip, took away the time and happiness from my family, and i'm still currently being held a hostage by my own agency. it's demoralizing to myself and agents to have directors and senior leader ships bury their heads in the sand and ignore the reports of violence but being unable noidto do my job because of the current leadership. i'm here to inform one of the retaliations of the largest agency of the federal government. agencies need to be valued by the government, not punished when they expose valuable information to our leadership. in closing, it's important to have agents on your front line

coming forward on issues that confront the nation. i look forward to your insight and answering any questions you may have. our next witness is mr. michael keegan. mr. keegan is social commissioner for facilities and supply management at the social security administration. mr. keegan has raised concerns about waste within the social security administration. mr. keegan? >> chairman johnson ranking member corporal and distinguished members of this committee. thank you for this opportunity to discuss my demotion reassignment and retaliation during my tenure at the social security administration or ssa. in july 2011 i was recruited by budget management michael gallagher specifically to oversee the office of supply management, known as osm. it consists of approximately

5,000 agents across our country. in january 2012 i was assigned as project executive for the construction of a replacement computer data center. this project was funded via a $500 million appropriation as part of the american reinvestment appropriations initiative. we were told the appropriations was needed to replace the existing center located in woodlawn maryland. most notably, the replacement data center occupied only one floor of the entire national computing center with approximately 7500 employees. an additional 925 employees work in the buildings of the other three floors. the ncc was beyond economic repair, in terrible condition and had to be replaced in totality. my duties further required

attendance at staff meetings before the house, ways and means subcommittee on social security. ssa was required to brief the committee on the progress and cost of the ncc replacement project. i was an important member of ssa's delegation. in the course of performing those duties i discovered a number of serious problems at ssa. i first brought these problems to the attention of assistant budget commissioner ms. tina wadell, who did not act on my instructions and instead instructed me to brief our new commissioner of finance management. in 2013, mr. peter spencer was brought out of retirement to assume the duties of deputy commissioner. soon after mr. spencer's arrival, i gave him a detailed briefing on serious issues that i believed included misleading congress, waste and abuse. i further raised employee overtime and travel abuse issues. however, one of the more

significant issues i raised involved ssa's reputations to congress to replace the entire national computing center when at most only part of the sec data center needed replacement. as an example, this lack of candor, testimony on the record from patrick o'carroll represented the national data center. the representative was monitoring and improving sec plumbing conditions foundations and monitoring acc dump work as examples. this was no mistake or understanding. ssa was specifically advised by an independent assessor to revise jason's inquiry report to address the concerns of the sec. ssa refused to follow this recommendation and chose not to

be forthright with congress. furthermore, depositions my attorneys specificed asked for and clarified ssa never had any plans to replace all four floors or the national computer center. a task is exhibits 5 to 7 which demonstrate this lack of candor. i asked the committee to pay special attention to -- where she testifies she never saw the reassignment letter which ruined any career a letter which she signed. her testimony made the chief of staff critical decisions against me which was squarely contradicted by her chief of staff's testimony which said she made those decisions. i ask the committee to read pages 41 through 46 in which he dances around basic questions

that ask if he would let them be responsible. congress is seriously unethical. shortly after my report to mr. spencer, i was removed from the court congressional staff briefings. a week later a formal investigation was launched against me. although i was cleared from extremely fabricated discrimination, i was removed from my position and left in anguish an empty office with a few tasks that a junior administrative employee could complete. to this day after 22,000 pages have been turned over to ssa in discovery and 10 depositions with my attorneys, nothing has been shown by the ssa that i deserved this retaliation. in 2013, after blowing the whistle again to miss culvin the computer system, i made the difficult decision to retire

from government service five years earlier than planned which has caused me significant hardship. i would be pleased to answer any questions the committee has for me. thank you. >> thank you, mr. keegan. our next witness is jose ducasbellow. he is an officer in washington, d.c. ducos-bello has raised concerns about the office. >> good morning to all. sherman johnson ranking member carper and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear before you today to help you blow the whistle on retaliation. i am a former member of the united states army aviation, and i served with dignity and honor for over six years until

honorable discharge because during a military operation in 1993 i suffered a severe injury which incapacitated me to continue flying. after my duties ended, i decided i would like to continue serving the government, as i dreamed when i was a child growing up next to the rainey air force base where i enjoyed watching all those b-52s going into practice during the cold war. and i said to myself one day i'm going to be up there. well, god gave me that opportunity. moreover, i spent a year in walter reed in a body cast

recuperating from my injuries. and with the help mif wifeof my wife and the physical therapist, i started walking again. and i'm proven testimony that to this day i can do law enforcement work with all my pains and aches. when i was early discharged in 1995, i immediately took a position as a u.s. custom inspector in santiago puerto rico where i made a lot of good things for this nation and i continued serving with honor and dignity to this day. when i joined in '95, i completed to this day 20 years of active service with the service that is now the

department of homeland security u.s. custom and border protection. sadly, because i did the right thing, i have suffered retaliation from the people that i would expect to receive support and complete admiration for doing the honorable thing. because i remember back in 1986, as i did just now when i raised my hand and swear to tell the truth, i also swear to protect the constitution of the united states against all foreign and domestic enemies. well, members of the committee we are dealing right now with domestic enemies. enemies that have no intention of respecting the whistle blower act and protect the people that do the right thing by reporting

wrongdoing in the government. i reported the fraud waste abuse and abuse of authority of more than $1.5 billion of taxpayers' money. and all of us in here are taxpayers. and i am an american citizen, and i'm proud to be that, and i'm also proud of serving this nation as a public servant. all of us are public servant. we are not entitled to anything but to do our job for future generations so that this nation prosper and continue for many years to come. we don't want to see the united states burned up like rome did hundreds of years ago. i don't want to say that i am

swaying you for republicans or for democrats. that's not the issue. this is bipartisan. and my duty from the moment i got dispatched and a weapon to fight for america in a war and two conflicts is to defend the constitution of the united states and to kiss old glory every time i can. because that's my pride. that's my legacy to my children. if i'm here it's for a reason. to leave a legacy to my children. and as senator carper was saying earlier, we have to protect the way that we spend federal funding. nobody is entitled to say, well,

forget about it. it's the government money. no, it's my money. it's your money. every time you file your taxes every year it's your money. i have to say that cbp should avoid right now wars they cannot win, and never raise your flag for asinine causes like fraud and corruption. i have been made the villain, the black sheep the convenient truth to the department of homeland security, and that has to stop. i know we have many provisions in our system to protect whistle blowers. but the agencies, they don't care. and they try to cover up as much

as i can. my situation is well known. i have been suffering. i lost my job at the commissioner commissioner. i cannot go back, and gladly with the help of the senate and officer of the special counsel i'm getting there. i'm going to get my job back if it is the last thing i do. because i worked there for 11 years and i never did anything wrong to deserve what is coming to me. i also, with the help of this committee, and the help of the osc, i am trying very hard -- very hard -- to have the osc gain more power over their investigation because the agencies do not respect the way they handle their investigation. and i want to end with a quote that president obama our leader

in charge of this great nation when he said, "democracy must be built through open societies that share information. when there is information there is enlightenment. when there is a debate there are solutions. when there is no sharing of power, no rural flaw, no accountability there is abuse corruption, subjugation and in indignity. i have been called many things. people laugh about my accent in spanish. people might say i'm a colorful character. people might think that i am just a second-class citizen.

and i remember senator john mccain telling me if you are mr. ducos, a second-class citizen because you were born in puerto rico, then i'm riding the bus with you because i was born in panama. there is no place in our government, in our society, to reprise, to discriminate against people who do the right thing. i am one against many and look what i did. i'm still standing, i'm still here i have a job. and i want to do my job with your help. also i would like to cite something that helps me go by every day. honor is simply the morality of

superior man. believe that you can do something and you're halfway there. and like theodore rupert said, speak softly and carry a big stick. so, in conclusion and let me find my paper. i had everything in order here. my professional reputation has been tarnished in public in social media and my family has suffered the ill effects to my well-being. these are the facts and the evidence that i have provided to the staff of the committee.

it will be much much, much more. i will never do my six minutes if i tell you all the retaliation things that my agency have done to me. it's in writing and it's accessible to u.s. evidence. but more now than ever, i will ensure that all fellow employees feel secure to report acts of corruption, waste or security concerns that can bring great danger to our national security. when it comes to fellow agencies committing acts of wrongdoing, we are not strong. we are the undercover cops on

the lookout to prevent uncle sam from being pickpocket. thank you very much, and i'm looking forward to answering any questions that you may have for me. >> thank you mr. ducos-bello. thank you for your testimony, for your service to this nation for your patriotism. i don't think there is anybody in this room that doesn't think you're anything but a first class citizen. our next witness is mr. tom divine, and mr. divine is the legal director of the accountability project the non-profit association against whistle blowers. mr. divine? >> thank you. the testimony from the last four witnesses personifies why i spent the last 30 years working at the gap instead of getting a real job. today's hearing is welcome, a much needed hearing, turning

paperwork into reality. i've been working with 6,000 whistle blowers since 1969, and casting these laws is just the first step on a very long journey. today's witnesses did just a great job of sharing lessons learned based on their personal experiences. the first lesson shared was pretty obvious. the whistle blowing through congress can have the greatest impact making a difference of abuses that evade the public trust. correspondingly, the second lesson is this makes congress the highest risk audience of whistle blowers. and that's because there is a direct linear relationship between the severity of the threat posed by a disclosure and the viciousness of retaliation. since congress has more impact, it's higher stakes in both

directions. the third lesson is retaliation doesn't end. after blowing the whistle, employees face orchften a lifelong struggle for professional survival. this is a life's crossroads decision. the fourth lesson that i think is worth sharing is that since the wpea was passed, a creative harassment tactics are circumventing its mandate. these are very serious challenges. the most encompassing is the sensitive jobs loophole. this is a national security loophole that would subsume the entire rules. it's kept them non partisan and non-professional since 1943. there's been no empirical basis for scrapping it but the same

court of appeals has approved it. last friday the office of personnel management issued final regulations. it is full steam ahead. under those rules, the government has uncontrolled power to designate almost any position as national security sensitive sensitive. once that happens, sensitive employees no longer have the right to defend themselves in an independent hearing they don't necessarily have any right to know what they did wrong in losing their position with the federal government. the administration said we're not attacking the whistle blower protection act, but that's very disingenuous. they will still have the authority to present unviewable independent justification for their actions even if retaliation is proven. that means by definition every whistle blower will lose a case when has a sensitive job. we can still have the whistle

blower protection act to give you the right to lose and turn the wpa into a bad joke. unless congress acts, we are on the verge of replacing the rule of law with a national security spoil system, and taxpayers will be the big losers. the second creative tactic that i would like to highlight is criminalizing whistle blowers. as we've seen from this morning's testimony, a new tactic is instead of just trying to fire someone put them under criminal investigation and give them the choice of either resigning or facing a prosecuting referral. this is very attractive. it's much easier muss and fuss than litigation. you have to prepare formal charges and depositions and legal briefs. all you need is one investigative bully. the worst that will happen is the agency will have to close the case and then next month they can open up a new case on a new pretext.

one was 30 years of serial criminal investigations. he was causing bribery in the meatyards. the prospect of facing jail time is much more severe than the prospect of the possible loss of your job. the fifth lesson learned is that the whistle blower protection act is a work in progress. the two most significant structural reforms for the act to achieve its premise have not yet been finalized. a gao must recommend whether -- almost every other group of employees in the u.s. labor force, federal government whistle blowers will be able to enforce their rights to district court jury trials if they don't get a timely hearing, and the all-circuits review was just an experiment. senators' fees are the structural cornerstone for the wpa to work. the gao report is due in a year and a half and it's time for

them to get started on t. theit. the sixth lesson learned is that we're overdue on oversight reauthorizing of the mirror system agencies the office of special consul and the mspb. the good news is that the leaders of these two agencies have really an unquestionable commitment to the system in their agency missions. it would be silly to challenge their good faith. in both agencies, their performance is probably the highest in history since they've been created since 1978. the bad news is this is a very low bar. at the mspp, the board has been even handed, the administrative judges are extremely hostile to the whistle blowers protection act. i can't honestly tell employees that they have a fair chance at

justice doing an mspb hearing. and at the office of special consul despite a 60% increase in corrective actions, that's brought us up to 6% of people who are filing complaints. they just don't have a chance when they try to act their rights under this law. the wpa was a great first step. with the commitment, the ladies charged in enforcing it was a long way to go before we achieve these purposes. thank you for holding this hearing to help get us started. >> thank you mr. divine, for your testimony. let me start by saying, as i was reading the testimony, as i'm listening to it, you come from a private sector where when you're at the top of a company it's always hard to get the

information not filtered so you really get the truth. i mean, as i'm hearing what was brought to the attention of the superiors, i'm thinking you ought to be having medals pinned to your chest not have retaliation inflicted upon you. what i'd like to ask the whistle blowers here, i want you hopefully as easy as possible, explain to me why. why were you retaliated against? i would like to start with lieutenant colonel amarine. i appreciate you meeting with me in my office yesterday, because you told me an awful lot yesterday, which i appreciate. i think maybe i have your why, but i want you to confirm this. you told me that in the course of your attempts to gain the freedom of these hostages in afghanistan and pakistan, you were made aware it's your belief that the government did pay a ransom and that ransom money was stolen. and secondly, that you believed you were pretty close to

potentially having a deal where we would get seven hostages in exchange for one taliban leader, and instead we got one hostage in exchange for five taliban leaders. is that, kind of in a nutshell that information that why you've been retaliated against, or what is the reason? >> yes, sir. i think that there are layers of this, as i said, in terms of layers of the bureaucracy. on december 1st of 2014 representative hunter submitted a complaint to the ig alleging an illegal or questionable ransom possibly being played for sergeant bergdahl. there was a good deal of evidence that it occurred and a lot of questions as to how it occurred. that complaint implicated both the d.o.d. organization and the

fbi. so part of what lit the fuse was the same folks in the fbi that were basically implicated in the d.o.d.i.g. complaint of one december were the ones that later complained to the army that i was sharing sensitive information with representative hunter. another aspect of it on the fbi side was, i think, just the general frustration with representative hunter pushing them hard on hostages and their awareness i was speaking with representative hunter about all of this. he even set up a meeting between my office and the fbi to try to help them out with some of this. after the meeting they responded by contacting kaitlyn coleman's father and threatening them not to speaker to representative hunter again or he would stop getting supported by the fbi. i mean just atrocious treatment of family.

so the fbi complained to the army and for reasons to be seen, there is a bit of a debate within the army whether i actually did anything wrong. my understanding is one party, who i just don't want to be speculative, but there was a big debate within the army over whether i did anything wrong, and that led to the investigation. >> can you tell me a little bit about what deal you thought you had for the release of the hostages? >> so my office worked options. we looked at a whole variety of options. one of the options that we developed was a -- we called it, you know the one for seven option. it entailed six hostages and a seventh person i would just rather not discuss today. so the six hostages -- it was actually five hostages and a prisoner of war.

so sergeant bergdahl kaitlyn coleman, the child she bore in captivity, josh boyle and colin rutherford. when we saw that nobody else was trying to get them home, we were working every initiative possible. one was the one for seven, and in that we were looking at hojoboshi norjai. he was described as the executive of afghanistan and we realized he was just another warlord, an ally of the carzod regime. as we looked at the options we looked at five for one, which we thought had died in 2012 as the worst option, and so for us it was, we aren't getting bergdahl let alone the other hostages

back for free. every option was going to be painful. so the norzai option for us was at least less painful, so berp ready to reach out to the norzai tribe itself which we believed could free the hostages and we made a lot of progress on it. i briefed it widely, but in the end when the taliban came to the table, the state department said basically it must be the five for one. that's the only viable option we have and that's what we went with. >> i can see how members of the government, if there was an option for 6 americans for one taliban, and the deal ended up being five taliban for one american, they would probably not want that too highly publicized. >> miss can you try to encap

encapsulate why? >> i think because of the people who were involved with the investigation, it maybe put a different light, and there was a lot of extra outside influences and kind of back and forth with the different members and different agencies. so we're all kind of -- as police officers, the last thing you want to be is listed as a whistle blower. and you usually ride the wave and keep your head down and your mouth shut. and i actually did that in this case until i was contacted by the inspector general's office. and we are required to cooperate with them, and i did and i think breaking that silence kind of -- i mean, i had everything in a 12-year career thrown at me and a lot of stuff that was not factual. so i think there was a lot of issues surrounding that as far as the retaliation. >> briefly, because i don't want to lose this thread. you said as investigator, the last thing you want to be known

as is a whistle blower. is that because it's well known the retribution, the retaliation? >> there is a brotherhood. you don't want to see your colleagues hurt and nicky don't see a lot of corruption or a lot of problems at the agent level. what i have seen is some significant problems at a leadership level. and that's not to get anybody in trouble. i think one family in dhs being hurt is enough. i just think there needs to be some corrective action. and i lost my train of thought. did that answer your question? >> it does. thank you, miss johnson. senator carper. >> again, my thanks to all of you for being here and for sharing your stories with us. on veteran's day, i went up and down the state of delaware, and there were any number of places that we met with veterans young and old their families, families of people who died

serving our country. and it was just a wonderful uplifting of their service. one of the things that delaware is noted for is the state that ratified the constitution. and one of the gatherings that we had was in dover delaware. the constitution of our country was first ratified in dover, delaware, a place called the golden fleece tavern. december 9 1787 over 200 years ago. they had to close down the main streets in town and the intersection of state street and lochman street. we had hundreds of veterans and their families around the intersection. we were gathered about 200 yards from where the golden fleece tavern was when the constitution was first ratified december 7, 1787. and i invited the folks who were there that day becauseas i invited

people in other assemblies that day, on veteran's day and memorial day i invited them to do what a lot of us kids did in school, and that's to recite the preamble of the constitution. i didn't expect them to know it verbatim, but i would read a few words and they would repeat them. we did this up and down the state. i love doing it and i think people enjoyed it as well. but you recall the preamble of our constitution starts off with these words, "we the people of the united states in order to form a more perfect union." think about that. in order to form a more perfect union. it doesn't say in order to form a perfect union, but a more perfect union. and for me one of my core values and perhaps one of yours is everything i do i know i can do better. and the folks who wrote that constitution that was ratified on december 7, 1787 down the

street from where we gathered on memorial day, they realized it wasn't perfect. they realized with future generations, we had to do better and better and better. as ms. divine notes, wii been doing this for a while with the whistle blower protection. my recollection was the whistle blower protection act was stopped in the 1980s. i don't recall whofls was president. do you recall? >> yes. >> make sure your mic is on. >> president reagan was in office when congress first cast it, president bush was in office when the law was finally signed.

screeria -- nigeria. -