[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> friends like that but could have -- little things like that that could have enormous impact. >> coming up next, author joe jackson recounts attempts in 1927 of charles lindbergh and other aviators to complete a nonstop transatlantic flight and women in -- win a $25,000 prize. he talks about how this included to the legacy atlantic flight. -- from distributed to the

legacy of transatlantic flight -- contributed to the legacy of transatlantic flight. joe jackson: thank you for having me. i spoke in manhattan today and this and the time in manhattan was the first time i have given a talk with powerpoint, so i will try not to blow anything up. they showed me how to push the buttons, so it should move forward easily. this is my seventh book and whenever i start a new book it is usually from an idea. when i started thinking about this book, it was 2008, the year of the beijing summit olympics and the presidential election. there was a lot of talk in the press and in the magazines and on to the -- on tv about whether

or not the united states was the most competitive culture on earth. i was interested and that and i thought about the 20th century's biggest race. i look at the story, this turned into a story of celebrity. or those who will business, as -- orifice through business -- otr this euro business, as richard byrd one of the rivals in the race, that is what he called it. i started writing this book and it became doubly fascinating. when i was researching, there was no way to escape lindbergh. but i really wanted to write about the losers, everybody has always written about what became them -- became known as the atlantic are being from the victor's perspective, the way that we do it in the united states, but they have forgotten all of the others.

from september 1926 until june 1927, 16 aviators from the united states, france, norway and russia entered this race and six of them died. not quite 20%. they were trying to become the first aviators to fly across the atlantic, nonstop, from new york to paris. either way. the first offered the prize in 1919 and i will tell you why he offered it. he was a frenchman and he was romantically excited about the airplane. the technology to make this flight was not really available to flyers until 1924, 1925 26, certainly 1927.

what is more interesting about this story is that after the official race ended, something even stranger and deadlier began. from june to december of that year, less experienced pilots tried to duplicate lindbergh and all failed. they either crashed, or they didn't get off the ground, or died. during that six month period, 12 more pilots died in the attempt to cross the atlantic, many of them women. more people than that died trying to cross other large bodies of water. but, those who tried to cross the atlantic, like i said, many of them were aviatrixes who were trying to prove that women were capable in the air. just as capable as men. it made sense to me as i was

writing, and it made general sense, that this would happen when and how it did. the technology had come, the technology for long-distance flight, a 33 hours, 3600 mile flight had come about with the development of powerful blue -- powerful new air cooled engines. if you go into an area with crop dusters, you still see these engines around. they look like octopus, like with the arms radiating out. they are powerful. and there was a belief at the time that the airplane would make the world a better place. that i kind of -- a kind of winged utopia would evolve. the idea was because consonants would be more quickly -- consonants -- continients would be linked and there would be an era of peace. no more war.

there was a belief that man would evolve in 3000 years. cities would float in the air and men will live in the atmosphere. disease would disappear from breathing in the i'd atmosphere -- rarefied atmosphere. they believed a new breed of homo sapiens would evolve. these altitude men. as i was researching, i began to see the growth of america's celebrity culture, about which we know -- so inundated today, it really started to take place during this time. and especially during this race. once again, technology made this possible. in 1926, 1927, you have the establishment of two national radio networks nbc and cbs. they had to fill the airwaves with information. you have -- you have the -- you

had an explosion of the print industry, more magazines then ever before. and then in 1927, you had the talking movies. lindbergh, in fact, one reason lindbergh would become well known was that he was filmed individual at that time. it is estimated that 10 millions of the of celluloid was used on lindbergh, 2 million more than the prince of wales, the second-most filmed individual. people were fascinated by all of these flyers but especially lindbergh. the idea over these celebrity as -- of these celebrity as a -- over the celebrity as a

person of importance, taking shape in our minds. a great gossip columnist understood instinctively that same had become the heart of a daily conversation. he didn't understand what the conversation was, it was a moral conversation, but it was an important conversation. it also seems to be therapeutic for those conversing although not necessarily for those subjects of the conversation. nobody knew what the language was, nobody knew what grammar was, nobody knew what the rules of the game were. then in the mid-1920's to events -- two events occurred that clarified celebrity for the broadcaster. and we can still see the patterns today in celebrity environments. the first event occurred in 1925. there was this little unknown kentucky's longer -- kentucky spelunker named floyd

collins who went down into a cave shaft in kentucky and got stuck and for the next two weeks, newspapers covered the attempts to try and save him. there were several wire agencies that flashed news of his rescue attempts all over the u.s. there were newsreels about floyd collins. during intermissions and -- in plays on broadway, the management would give updates on what was going on with floyd collins. basically, when journalists looked back, they realized that they were trying to grab the reader's interest and trying to hold it. this was a story of life and death. they could tell physically that people were interested, because during the two weeks that this occurred, there were at first hundreds of people lining the road leading to where the cave

was, and then the roof thousand, -- and vendor there were thousands, -- and then there were thousands and then 10,000 and at the end 50,000. they knew something was going on. and later they understood that what they had done was to sustain this tale by creating a cast of characters, people that the reader seems to know. they were often very simplified to a certain extent they were stereotypical, but every time we wrote about these characters, we wrote, we always remind the people about the basic tale. the characters in the floyd collins story, first off there was floyd collins, he was devout, he was an everyman.

he believed his faith in god would bring him out of the cave, and when it became clear that his faith would not get him out, his faith in god would take him to heaven. there was 31 -- 31 -- the one reporter who went down the shaft to bring him water, food, to give him light. it was like a stripped copper wire. his name was miller, and was from the louisville newspaper. he was very small. he was called skeet, like a skeeter. and the narrative with skeet s miller is he finds his humanity. he was a cynical reporter who was going down to interview the is god everyday. he finds his humanity. and then there was the father. he was portrayed as a hard

drinking mountain manieer. and his mother, a hard-working mountain woman whose back was bent from years behind the plow cloud. there was floyd girlfriend, who waited at the shaft. she wasn't really his girlfriend. and his loyal dog ship -- shep who waited for him at the entrance of the cave every day. but really, his dog's name was obi, and he did not wait for him every day. so there is always a bit of that goes on -- bit of editing that goes on. now to lindbergh. next monday or tuesday will be the 85th anniversary of his flight. suddenly the public and press are participants in the greatest example of hero worship, that anyone can remember. and once again that everybody by surprise -- it took everybody by

surprise. but when they go back and look at it, the narrative was simple. this was a race with winners and losers and with the body count adding up, it transformed from a simple race to something much more personal and metaphorical. it became a race of life and death. by then, the journalists learned and remembered the lessons with floyd collins and they framed the rivals with things that we knew, they were given labels. there was lindbergh, the youth personified, he was the dark horse. he was the outsider. there was richard byrd, the scientist and explorer guided by pure reason.

there was noel davis, a fellow who had ridden the range as a cowboy, from utah, a mormon. he had math books in his saddle bag. he was presented as almost like the sheriff who rode out of the west. he was given a strong moral purpose. he was going to bring home the flight records. the french had stolen them from us. there was costan, who already had a nickname, the bad boy of the air. he was the sheikh. he was the dark lover. he was the reckless ladies man. barnstormers and flyers at the time were the rock stars of the day. they left children behind. they were liked. and then there was charles nungusser. he and his copilot were the only frenchman who tried to come from paris to new york, the harder route.

he was very romantic and he was thought of as glamorous knight of the air. he had been in hollywood movies, one of which would not be released until after his death. there were no complications in this. it was easy to understand the se people as they were presented. the storylines were simple and because of that they became invested in the hopes and dreams of millions and their failures became their own. at this time, lindbergh was not ordained to win. not at all. he showed up a week before he took off. the other flyers have been covered to death. he was new and that made him news. the was a lot of coverage about lindbergh and --there was a lot of coverage about lindbergh and he was young, it was a young

age, the jazz age. the reporters went nuts about him. every flyer had been declared the front runner, a one time or another. the press had speculated, that every flyer, would be the one that would win. and every one of the flyers was just as accomplished and just as capable as his rival. nobody thought of the time that lindbergh was any better than -- at the time that lindbergh was better than any of the flyers. although that is what you hear in hindsight. if anything, lindbergh watched the others act and watched them start before him, then he took advantage of their crashes and fatal mistakes and then he took his chance when the moment presented itself. alright, so let's talk about the characters a little bit. this is where things blow up. this is raymond.

ordick was the expatriate french hotel owner in new york who put down the $25,000 for the prize. i have been asked what that would translate to invade but i have seen for years like $300,000. -- translate to today but i have seen figures like $300,000. it was clearly understood that whoever was first to cross the atlantic, in addition to this prize, he would probably be rich very soon. a couple years after winning lindbergh was worth $1 million. and he continued to make more. he got a lot of offers in his first month, which he turned down, from film studios. they were calculated to be about $5 million. he turned all of those down in the first month after he won. raymond orteig had been born at the border between spain and

france and when he was young his grandmother swewed some francs in his belt and said go to the u.s. and see what you can do. he became a waiter at the lafayette cafe in washington sparedquare in new york. in 10 years, he bought the cafe and its adjoining hotel and with a partner he owned two hotels in new york. one was the hotel lafayette and the other was the hotel brefort. the second had the best wine cellar in new york during prohibition. it was known. and the hotel lafayette was considered a slice of authentic france in the middle of new york. everyone went there. what happened with orteig is

that during world war i, the hotel lafayette was the preferred place to stay for french military men and flyers when they came to the u.s. for training or diplomacy. or whatever. and they came and told stories about flying and he was already homesick about his country and he just remembered that. with fondness. and after the war was over, he was homesick. and he missed that, he was nostalgic. and in 1919, he hosted a dinner for eddie rickenbacker, the united states premiere world war i ace. and rickenbacker was talking and he said, you know, i miss the companionship that occurred between the french flyers and american flyers and i only hope that as technology allows us

that our two great countries will be united in the air, not through war, but by peace. orteig was so inspired, that night he went home and joined the aero club of america. which was the sponsoring club before the dinner -- sponsoring club for the dinner. he wrote a letter saying, i hope to donate $25,000 for this prize, which was basically a nonstop flight from new york to paris, or paris to new york, you know, a 3600 mile trip. he didn't know at the time in $25,000 was 1/8 of his liquid capital. and so if there had been an emergency, he would have been slitting his own throat.

luckily for him, he only realized that until long afterwards. most of the flyers, all but one team, they started in long island, right around here. where is the roosevelt mall? ok, that way. right there. long island was a natural airfield. the center of nassau county, which would have been over there where the roosevelt mall is that was known as hempstead plains. and hempstead plains was the only naturally occurring prairie east of the alleghenies. it was flat, there were no trees, very few farms. the grass was soft and spongy. the undercarriages of the planes at that time were very delicate. you had to be able to bounce up and down a little bit. otherwise you would break and crash. in 1926, 1927, there were three

airfields which were right next to each other on hempstead plains. mitchell and curtis fields were not really available to private flyers. roosevelt was the best kept, it was the longest and it was the one where all of them took off. ok. this is renee funk, who came over from france and said he was going to be the winner. he was the greatest living ace world war i. he had 75 official kills to his name. remember the red baron had more, , but he had not survived. he was known as the ace of aces.

he came across an american consortium that was starting to build a plane, thinking about or -- thinking about going for the prize. and kind of presented himself and said, i want to do this. and as famous as he was, the americans went nuts. the plane was designed by igor who today is mostly known for the helicopters he developed but at that time he built really big planes. during world war i, he was the main airplane builder for the czar. he built bombers with observation decks for you could walk out and look at the clouds. -- where you could walk out and look at the clouds. they were so massive that only one was shot down by the germans. he had to run after the revolution and he first went to

paris, but there were a lot of displaced airplane designers there, so he came to the united states. and he built big planes. fonck got together a crew, and american copilot, a french radioman, and a russian mechanic. of the, -- and very, it was felt that his flight was a sure thing. he did not have any competitors. but he drastically overloaded the plan and he never got off of the ground. the -- the -- he bumped up a giant hill that separated roosevelt field from curtis fields and the plane disintegrated and burst into flames. and the russian mechanic and the french radioman died.

see he always said he would try again, but you never got enough money for a second try. immediately afterwards, all of these americans started to think about, i can do this too. the first person to start thinking about this was richard byrd. in 1926, byrd had flown over the north pole. he claimed that he was the first person to fly over the north:. -- north pole. today, that is disputed, it is believed today that he probably fell about 150 miles short. those who have an ax to grind think he was law you. those who are a little more unbiased thing that -- he was always known as a navigator but he was not a good navigator. he just miscalculated. he turned back before he was

over the north pole. and when he finally figured it out he had been awarded the congressional medal of honor and he could not back out at that point. he is shown with president coolidge and floyd bennett, is who floyd bennett field was named after. and bennett was always one of the most respected flyer and he was always byrd's pilot. in everything that he tried to do. >> who is that guy? joe jackson: the guy over to the side? i don't know. i don't know. i don't think he had anything to do with aviation. so what happened was that in november of 1926, wanamaker, the owner of the department stores in new york, one of the largest department stores in new york at

the time, said to byrd had a dinner honoring him i will give you $100,000 if you will build a plane and be the first to cross the atlantic to fly it. you must name it america, it must be all american-made and it will be in the name of science. purely in the name of science. byrd couldn't really back out. although it was not reported in the press at first, it was kept secret at first. and his designer was anthony foxx are -- fokker who had built the red baron's plane. it was a star-studded consortium. that was the first person rumored to fly. the first person who actually officially entered was noel davis.

noel davis is the fellow closest to the window, closest to the plane. he was the mormon cowboy. he was the fellow who had ridden the range when he was a young man. utah suddenly had four openings in annapolis, so he decided to try and get in. he went to war and after the war, like many bored young navy officers did, he decided to become a pilot in pensacola. he had the first airplane that was available and ready for flying. he was the front runner for a while. many people thought that the odds of byrd and davis were just about equal. but then on a final test, close to where i live, near virginia beach, virginia, in a final test in hampton virginia what is now

langley field, his very heavy plane could not lift off and he crashed and both wooster and he were killed. many people believe that the turning point of the race was when lindbergh showed up. that was not the turning point at all. the race became much more serious and changed in tenure completely when davis and stanton wooster died. of course the french radio operator and the russian mechanic had died before them, but they were not part of the very small world of american flyers. they were not really known. i mean, it was a tragedy, but these were people that were known, so people started losing friends at this point. and at that point, a cloud began to descend over the race

and there was a sense of doom. >> is this the plane? joe jackson: the plane was -- i talk a lot more about the personalities than the mechanical instruments, but that was one of the biggest bombers in the u.s. at that time. it was built by the huska land company out of pennsylvania. it was called the american legion and the american legion gave davis and wooster $100,000 to build this. it was another big plan like -- plane like byrd's plane was.

next two people that we see is burt acosta and lance chamberlain. acosta was the man that you would see in the movies. it was the these men of the air -- he was the ladies man of the air. clarence chamberlain was the opposite. he was short, he was shot, the war golfer's parents -- pants called plus fours. he wore a bow tie, he was as un-piloty as a pilot could be. and the fellow that owned the airplane that they would be flying in did not believe that chamberlain could fit the image of a pilot, of a world-class pilot, if he was the first to

cross the atlantic. because the owner rightly believe that the first person across the atlantic would be in world celebrity, bigger than chaplin, douglas fairbanks, the biggest person in the world. he was right at the time. but at this time they were not really any professional pilots. this is what is different about them. there were barnstormers, but they were show men. there were military pilots but the idea of somebody who made a living as a test pilot and train people was unusual and these two did that so they were were rarities. there was lindbergh, this photo was taken around 1923 or 1924. this was when he was getting his wings as an army flyer in texas, or early in his career as an airmail flyer.

so he was not well known at that time. he flew after getting his wings in texas, he started as a barnstormer. he knew that barnstormers did not live long, they do not have a great future. so he became an army aviator and then he joined the airmail. when he was flying the airmail from st. louis to chicago, after fonck crashed, he thought i can do that. like everybody else, he thought fonck was going to win but then he thought, if i can stay awake for 40 hours, which i have done as an airmail pilot, then if i fly alone and keep the weight down, i have enough gas to make it across. and his theory of how to do it was radically different from all of the other pilot at that time.

that is his plane, the spirit of st. louis, when he landed a week before taking off. this is a photo of lindbergh shaking the hand of clarence chamberlain in front of the spirit of st. louis, with byrd in between. you can see the lindbergh was quite tall. his nickname was, "slim." we were talking about this. the one time i knew. he was one of the youngest flyers. there was a norwegian flyer who may have been as young. obviously he towered over everybody else and when he had his plane developed you wanted to have plenty of leg room. he did not want to be cramped. this is charles nunnguesser.

the knight of the air. he and his copilot were both world war i aces. they were revered by the french, they were loved by the french as much as lindbergh would read by the americans. -- lindbergh will be by the americans. and when nunngesser died in flight, it was a tragedy. he is shown with his american wife. the american heiress consuelo. she, her mother had married one of the discoverers of the comstock loade. he died, leaving her millions. and she married again to the personal secretary of cornelius vanderbilt. and vanderbilt was consuela's father. so consuelo had millions and

instant access to new york society. she was studying in france when she met this dashing young aviator, nunngesser. and she married him, but her father thought that all flyers were distributable and -- just reputable and said -- disreputable and said if you do not get this marriage annulled i will cut off your allowance and write to the will. so she did, but they had a plan. he would land at the statue of liberty. he had his medals with them. he was going to stand in the cockpit, and as the boat towed his plane he would be looking for her and she would be waiting for him at the battery and they would see each other and then they would never be separated again because none gas or --

nunngasser really presumed that weber was first across the atlantic would make millions as lindbergh did. all evidence today points to the fact that he was the first to cross the atlantic, and he disappeared somewhere near newfoundland and nova scotia. the best evidence seems to suggest that perhaps he was shot down by a rum boat. a rum runner. this is prohibition. if this is true, nunngesser was not the victim of natural forces, he was a victim of american prohibition. this is chamberlain once again. and the owner of the columbia.

his plane. charles levine. levine owned this block the columbia. it was the best plane of the bunch at the time. lindbergh wanted it. lindbergh always painted levine as a duplicitous man. in fact, he more or less painted him as a duplicitous jew within his spirit of st. louis. because he always felt bitter about the fact that he had the columbia within his grasp and then levine jerked it away from him at the last minute. levine was the first transatlantic airline passenger, he jumped into the plane at the very last minute. lindbergh went across on may 20.

chamberlain and levine went across in june, they went to berlin, they went farther than lindbergh avenue. -- lindbergh had it. levine was the only flyer who did not receive a letter of commendation from calvin coolidge. the jewish population in brooklyn had a fit about that. so that is levine. live in -- levine is the villain of the piece. many newspaper men called him a madman, because he was always changing his mind. but he was the most like lindbergh of any of the flyers. he was an outsider. he doted on his plane. he was uncomfortable with society. he was a gambler in terms of gambling about life and death. he was a fascinating character. and the last to go over was

byrd's crew. the man who was the presumptive winner, was the loser. and the people lined up there there had been a crash that severely injured floyd bennett so they had to rejigger their crew list. bert acosta became the pilot there was a radio man, and a norwegian who could fly by instruments, by compass and ultimate or -- all ultimate terror -- ultimate altimeter and things like that. something that none of the other

pilot could do. he probably saved all of their lives, because they flew for hours in a fog, and could never see the ground until he crashed off the coast of france in the very end. when they crashed in france, that officially ended the race. but in late june to december many people wanted to duplicate lindbergh's flight and a number of them were women. and the only woman to survive was ruth elder. ruth elder got as big of a reception when she landed in new york, as lindbergh did. she was young, she was accessible, she was sexy, at first she was about to be single. it turned out she had a husband back home. the papers went nuts about her. she was raised very poor in alabama. she got married and moved to florida while lindbergh was making his flight.

and while that was going on, she decided if a man can do it why can't a woman? she was learning how to fly, she got her flight instructor -- they bought a type of airplane a lot like the spirit of st. louis. it was called the detroiter. she named it the american girl. she said to the press, as an american boy can have great dreams, why can't an american girl? and she went aloft. she made it as far as azores but she crashed in the sea but she crashed inside a norwegian tanker and they saved her. she very -- perhaps more than any of the other flyers, she understood the new world of celebrity. because she said early on, anybody who flies -- the first

woman who flies across is going to be famous. they're going to make money they are going to be famous. i don't want to go back to the life of a dental hygienist in florida, why shouldn't i do this? this is my way out. what is interesting is when you are looking through these archives, there are these letters to these flyers from both men and women. most of them are saying, take me along. but the most poignant were from women. all these women thought -- there was one from a woman who had seven children, but five of them had died. there was one woman whose long -- who slung burgers in philadelphia and she offered to bring food. all of them saw flying as a way out. ruth elder thought this was her way out. celebrity was my way out.

and seacrest -- let me back up. -- she crashed -- let me back up. when she was in new york, she was a huge success. see that ribbon around her hair, every day she would come to roosevelt field with a different ribbon in her hair. they were called ruth ribbons. all the clothing stores in new york quickly carried them and all the girls in new york wore them. she crashed, but she was offered a vaudeville tour. she became a brief movie star. she married well, several times. and after a few years, she gave up flying and she became a golf champion. but she certainly did a lot better than her little home in the hills in alabama, or in florida. she knew what she wanted and she

went after it. she understood and manipulated the rules of celebrity more than any of the others did. does anybody have any questions? yes, sir. >> -- joe jackson: please speak into the mic when you ask a question. >> i feel like frank sinatra. joe jackson: don't start singing. >> was the spirit of st. louis the first closed cockpit aircraft as far as the planes in the competition? did it have heating? joe jackson: it didn't have heating, that would have added weight. it was, no, the columbia, that was a closed cockpit.

the only planes that were completely closed cockpit where the single engine planes, the columbia and the spirit of st. louis. let me see. byrd's plane was about half closed, a canopy went up halfway and then it was open. ok? >> it only had the side doors, side mirrors? no full word? -- no foreword? joe jackson: lindbergh could look at the side of his window and he had a little periscope, telescope so he could see right in front of him. and he said that was the way that he flew anyway. the side when he was landing so he didn't really need class in -- glass the front or anything.

he had his gas tank in the front. >> do you draw any parallels between lindbergh and neil armstrong? joe jackson: it's interesting. you know who lindbergh really liked during the apollo 11 mission was not know armstrong but michael collins who stayed in the capsule alone. and collins, when collins was the director of the air and space museum, there was a retrospective of lindbergh, the 50th anniversary, and they were -- lindbergh was alone looking at the spirit of st. louis up there and collins watched him. and then lindbergh came to him and said, you know, of all the astronauts i envy you the most being alone, the silence, that is what i always valued. it is really interesting.

collins, yes. so. any questions? yes ma'am. weight. -- wait. >> i still feel today that we still love our airmen. and what these wonderful stories bring to mind is someone like sullenbergner. he puts the ship down in the water and he is still going on. joe jackson: you are right. he is a consultant for cbs. he is revered. it is like they do something amazing. it was. so i would agree with you. i do not think that it is quite as overt anymore as it used to be. i think probably what we will see, the next big spurt is when we start to have space pilots. i mean, we have the astronauts, of course, but now the next

phase in space exploration is the private industry and they will probably be these daredevil space pilots down the line. i would agree with you. >> about your research, being a librarian, i want to know how you did all this wonderful research? joe jackson: i went to a lot of archives. i went -- the biggest was the lindbergh archives in st. louis where they kept everything about the flight. and then bird collected letters and everything -- byrd collected letters and everything, at the research institute in ohio state . some of these guys published books. i searched the archives on all of them that i could find. i also flew in a crop duster so i could get the feel for these little old planes and how bumpy the air felt. i spent a lot of time on this.

a lot of the collections the letters and papers are in the library of congress or the air and space museum. so the library of congress the manuscript division has an incredible amount. as does the air and space museum. >> thank you. joe jackson: write down here -- right down here. this fellow. >> first question. involves nothing that you spoke about. i happen to share the initials of a fellow named bruno hoffman. -- haupmann. the person who is ostensibly tried for for the kidnapping of the lindbergh baby. does your book touch on that at all? joe jackson: slightly. most of the book is about the construction of celebrity and the race. most of the fires except for

chamberlain, fame did not -- flyers, except for chamberlain fame did not treat them well. lindbergh's fall from grace was the most public and well known. and the first horrible thing that happened to him was the kidnapping. i do not spend a lot of time on that, because that is a book in its self. >> it was never 100% written in stone that he was the person responsible. joe jackson: right. >> the other thing was you also mentioned the archives are in st. louis, but lindbergh was living in new jersey. joe jackson: there are several lindbergh archives. the one that has everything on the transatlantic flight is in the state historical society in st. louis because basically, he came out of st. louis, he was funded by st. louis businessmen, so he was getting offers for

pets and massages and jobs people were sending him home loans and paintings and finally st. louis opened this museum with all of his junk and it became a pilgrimage place for everybody who worshiped lindbergh. and so that is the place to go for lindbergh information about the flight. if you want to go -- if you want to find out about his childhood, you go to the historical society of minnesota. and if you want to find out about his, what got him into trouble and got him labeled as an anti-semite, you go to yale. where they have the archives on america first. but that is outside of the purview of my story. i went to st. louis. >> many years ago, before alex

trebek and jeopardy, the first time around i was a five-time champion and one question that they asked was who was the 28th person to fly across the atlantic. registered a shot at it -- i just took a shot at it and said lindbergh and that was right. joe jackson: we are talking so lo and nonstop. lindbergh was not the first to cross the atlantic. there were two w english flyers by the name of alcott and brown and they want a 2000 pound reward -- won a 2000 pound reward. it was a publicity stunt for two newspapers. the airplanes were much feebler than bought -- then but they

flew from newfoundland to ireland. they only flew, maybe 1000 something miles. it was like, there's was a bomber. it was a world war i bomber. and so they were the first to actually make it across, but if you are talking, this is a 3600 mile flight for lindbergh versus a 1000 plus mile flight for alcott and brown. and a lot of it is just the mechanics of publicity. in 1927, you had movies, radio you have -- you had newspapers, you had photographs, millions of lindbergh songs, you had ttalkies.

the prize competition came at the right time for this kind of like fascination and world adulation. somebody else? yes, ma'am. >> you spoke about ruth elder, and at the beginning you talked about a lot of women who tried to cross the atlantic. can you say something more about them? joe jackson: there was in -- there was a woman from england who was part of royalty. who flew across from england trying to make it to the united states. she disappeared. she was known as the flying princess. princess loewenstein something. you have to remember when i start researching a new book a lot of the old details start to go away, so forgive me. but the other one who was really fascinating was the niece of

woodrow wilson. she was a new yorker and her name was francis grayson. and she tried to fly across in december, and everyone was telling her that this was suicidal. ice is going to form on the wings and you will be dead. she would not listen. you have several kind of like -- she had several kind of like revolts within her crew and the day that she left, she was going to fly to newfoundland, service her engine, and then fly across. the day that she left, the reporter saw her slip a gun into her purse or backpack or something like that, and the reporter said something about a symbol of her authority and she kind of changed the subject. and then she disappeared. i don't think she killed everybody on board, i don't think that happened. but she was competing at the same time as ruth elder.

and it was really pretty interesting. once again, the mechanics of publicity are going on here. she was in her 30's, she wasn't unattractive, but she was stern. >> [indiscernible] joe jackson: and she was a feminist, so she was kind of scary to the press. ruth was -- had movie star good looks, she was sweet and would talk to everybody. and all the girls in new york loved her and she got her way through charm. there was this one moment when the owner of roosevelt field closed down roosevelt field because he was scared she would, die. she got the owner alone and charmed him to reopen it. she got away by charm. ruth elder, well francis grayson

actually moved her base before ruth elder did and ruth elder off and crashed -- took off and crashed and didn't make it. and then francis grayson took off maybe a few days before christmas eve, and she disappeared. >> [indiscernible] joe jackson: wait, wait, wait. we cannot be extemporaneous here. >> you mentioned icing and you also mentioned fokker. they are still making aircraft. the guy is dead but the company is alive. joe jackson: that has to do with the licensing of his name because he had a fight with the people who took over his company. he was out of it. >> the reason i mention it is because i just happen to be at laguardia airport when flight

50-50 crashed into the bay, the problem was icing. it was snowing. joe jackson: i know it. that french plane that disappeared all the way from result in france. -- disappeared on the way from brazil frieto france. it was theorized that it was the same thing. talking about la guardia, makes me think, i still think planes are considered glamorous. when i flew in yesterday, on the tarmac was a private jet and it stood alone in a circle of light and painted on the fuselages was trump. it was donald trump's giant jet. and i remember i wondered about that because when i was a reporter in norfolk i had gotten on the trump princess.

remember, his yacht? that was like an exercise in excess. i wondered if his plane was the same. >> he bought the trump princess for a song. because the guy that owned it named it after his daughter. i was on it once for a party. it was one hell of a boat. jackson: somebody wants to ask a question. ok. yes, ma'am. >> did you get a chance to talk to charles lindbergh's grandson eric? who did -- 10 years or so ago he did a flight over the atlantic in a single-engine. jackson: i read about that. i did not get to talk to him. i wrote a letter to lindbergh's daughter because you have to get permission to delve into the yale archives. it turned out i did not need them. she never wrote me back and i didn't pursue it.

they are justifiably sensitive about things. i talked to noel davis' son who was a year-old when his father crashed. i talked to stanton wooster's half-sister who was 10 years old when he crashed. what i kick myself for is clarence chamberlain's family is around here somewhere, new jersey or something and there's a fellow by the name of -- i got an e-mail from a fellow by the name of billy stott or stough, one or the other who made a documentary about clarence chamberlain that showed at the imax theater. over at the -- i am sure i am pointing in the wrong direction. at the cradle of civilization. that way. and his family is still alive. and i would love to have known they were still alive. his children are still alive. and i would have loved to have

talked to these people. i mean, chamberlain was a fascinating character. at a time when there is a lot -- in this book there's a lot of -- there is -- i don't harp on it but can't get away from it but there's a lot of prejudice and discrimination in here. i mean, you know, levine -- there's a lot of anti-semitism. at the time, in 1927, there were african-american flyers who wanted to fly but there were few places that would let them fly. chamberlain was one of the few flyers in new york who regularly went up with a black flyer. i think he was jamaican. his name was -- what was his name? hubert fauntleroy julian or something like that.

he called himself the black eagle, and for a couple of years, he would -- advertisers would pay him to go over harlem in a red devil suit and jump out with a parachute and he would trail behind him some marquee. he and chamberlain were the best of friends and finally julian said he built this plane, he was going to be the first american flyer to fly from new york city to liberia. and i guess it was a pretty rickety plane because he invited chamberlain to fly with him and chamberlain talked his eye and said -- cocked his eye and said you are not going to fly in that. come along with me. the plane took off and in three seconds it landed in the east river and julien was in the hospital for about a week or something like that and i don't think he ever tried again. he is a fascinating character.

i think he went on in aviation. but chamberlain was the only one person -- it is interesting because chamberlain was the only one of the flyers in the orteig prize to get along with levine and the only one -- this guy who was not movie star caliber was the only one of the flyers to get along with levine who everyone else disparaged partly because of anti-semitism and the only one to take up the only black flyer in new york that i could find based in new york during that time. i think he was pretty interesting. i wish somebody would do a story on this julien fellow or a documentary or something. i think he is just kind of this fascinating fellow. any other questions? yes? >> not so much a question as a

comment but the middle of aviation is having --the goal of aviation is having -- cradle of aviation is having a celebration and the grandson of lindbergh is supposed to be there next weekend. jackson: is that eric, who you were talking about? >> yes, and annie phipps, who had been from westberry and wound up financing the flight that the millionaire heart as a passenger. jackson: there's also the -- that amelia ehrhardt as a passenger. jackson: there's also the designer of chamberlain and levine's plane. he is married to a woman from omaha and her sister myrtle brown came out from omaha wanting to be an art student in new york. she sat around a table when all of this was going on and decided to be a flyer and during this period she was going to be the

first woman to make it across the atlantic. she decided this when she did not have a license, a plane, or a backer, but she did find a catholic priest from pittsburgh who said he would fly with her if she would fly to rome. and so she was going to fly to rome. she never made it across the atlantic but she moved to delaware and she became the first licensed female pilot in delaware. she also became one of only 25 female pilots to hold a commercial pilot's license in the united states. and the last story i had of her was that myrtle brown kind of had the corridor or from delaware to new york -- you know, that was her sky. as many of these people did her plane conked out and she landed in a field of spinach.

and when she came to, she knocked herself out with spinach. and when she came to, there was this farmer watching her and he was identified as freeholder joseph something. and i could never, i get this straight, but if somebody was called a freeholder was he like, amish or something? i don't know. i don't know. but anyway. >> it is one of the terms that they use. joe jackson: i didn't go into that. but this freeholder was watching her, and when she came to first thing he said was young lady you ruined $100 worth of spinach and i am not giving back your plane until you pay for it. and he didn't. he did not give it back to her until she paid for it. these guys are always running afoul of farmers.

when chamberlain and levine -- >> in those days, that was a lot of spinach. jackson: yes. when chamberlain and levine were trying to make it to berlin they landed in the field of wheat outside of berlin. way outside of berlin in a town. they landed and mashed a bunch of wheat up and this woman goes that is my wheat. you mashed up my wheat. was going to pay for my wheat? thin the woman thought there had been these kidnappers around lately, and she suddenly grew very afraid because she not she was confronting kidnappers with a new and unique way of kidnapping people. she only calmed down when her's son, who could speak a little bit of english, explained to her that these were just lost americans. then they took off again.

they got a little bit of gas and they flew a few more miles, and their plane conked out and landed in a field of beats. the mayor of the local town drove up and said, "don't worry. it's beets. come and have some beer. they're always against farmers. i guess it is kind of light. in the last questions -- late. in the last questions? -- any last questions? >> you mentioned renee funk. was he flying anything by blerio? a big-name in french aviation. joe jackson: there were some bleriot monoplanes around. i think he flew them around the time of the war.

but there were no -- i know that a bleriot monoplane was bought by william randolph hearst, and it was considered too flimsy and he gave it away to a philadelphia department store owner. but, i mean, it did not have anything to do with this flight. that was a decade earlier. two decades. >> the other thing was i was surprised that the name havilland did not come up. joe jackson: no, it was not one of the planes used. he was surprised the name to havilland did not come up. the right lots of bombers during world war i. >> there were lots of -- bombers

during world war i. i concentrated more on personalities than on planes. i knew that was my week point. if i try to pass myself off as an expert on airplanes, there are millions of people out there who could let me know that i was barking up the wrong tree. ok, we have a question. >> [inaudible] average altitude was at that time? jackson: it was low. it was really low. he flew by sight a lot of times and dead reckoning, which is a way of using the compass and also your watch to figure out where you are, but you had to figure out wind speed into dead reckoning, and he was close enough to the waves a lot of times that he could see which way the froth was going off the tops of the waves. they had these schools -- spools

installed within the planes and a lot of times, he flew 10 feet off the waves. a lot of times, he had to go higher. >> it was never more than 10,000 feet? joe jackson: i don't think so. sometimes he might have been when he was trying to get around the clouds but on the average, he was not flying as high as some of them. anybody else? all right. thank you very much. i appreciate it. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> like many of us, first families take vacation time. like presidents and first ladies, a good read can be the perfect companion for a summer journey. what better book than one that looks inside of the personal life of every first lady in american history. "first ladies: presidential

historians on the lives of 45 iconic american women." a great summertime read. available from public affairs in hardcover or an e-book for your favorite bookstore or online bookseller. >> monday night on the communicators, research founder upton meyer and hank johnson. about technology issues and that legislation -- talk about technology issues and legislation. >> 90% of people sued by patent trolls have to settle because they do not have the money to defend themselves. they pay an average of 300,000 dollars to the patent troll that is suing them. then they are locked up under an nda which is a contract which says they are never allowed to tell anybody what happened to

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liberated the nazi concentration camp's. on american history tv we will hear holocaust stories from those who lived them. these interviews are part of the oral history collection at the united states holocaust memorial museum in washington, d.c.. next, u.s. army veteran john holmes talks about his reaction to coming across a not see labor that nazi -- nazi labor camp in the hartz region of austria and liberating the jews who were imprisoned there -- his reaction to coming across a nazi labor camp. this oral history is about 30 minutes. holmes: we were fighting in the hartz mountain sector on our way into fighting in austria.