70 years ago in 19 45, forces liberated the nazi concentration camp's. on american history tv we will hear holocaust stories from those who lived them. these interviews are part of the oral history collection at the united states holocaust memorial museum in washington, d.c.. next, u.s. army veteran john holmes talks about his reaction to coming across a not see labor that nazi -- nazi labor camp in the hartz region of austria and liberating the jews who were imprisoned there -- his reaction to coming across a nazi labor camp. this oral history is about 30 minutes. holmes: we were fighting in the hartz mountain sector on our way into fighting in austria.

anyway, when we crossed this river and we came into this area, the germans were in there, but they were more -- they did not put up any resistance, and they had an airport nearby. and as a matter of fact, this was a place i saw my first german jet. i never knew what they were, but i knew they were just damn fast. because i tried to open fire on a couple of them, and i the time you could get your guns trained, the thing was gone like that -- by the time you could get your guns trained. but anyway, we passed this house, and off in the distance you could see huge warehouses and long rows of something like -- i don't know. donna quonset hut >> -- not a quonset hut but these are

square, long buildings. it had a gate in it. i don't recall what the writing was up over the gate, but what we did encounter inside of their re -- i got out of mike turner tank >> -- out of my turner tank and walked in to see what was inside, and that was when i -- you could smell death for maybe 20 miles before you ever got to it. it's very different. humans and animals are entirely different. you can stand it callow or a horse or something that has been shot out -- a cow or a horse or something that has been shot up but a human being -- the stench of death from it -- it's awful. i saw this high ceiling and this little narrow pathway down the

center, and it had maybe 12 or 14 tiers, and you had just enough room, maybe, i would say for an individual to slip through between each tier of bunks. and can you imagine them -- me at six foot, it is twice as high as i am tall. in other words, you've got 12 or 14 feet of these bunks with little ladders going up there. and these people -- you might find underneath here would be a dead person and a living person that was just too damn weak to move. they would hold other hand and -- hold out their hand and you were afraid to touch them. some of them had scabs and sores and everything on them. they had just been there for -- i understand that these people were fed one ounce of meat -- i

think it was once a week. they were also given potato soup or cabbage soup once a day and a small cube of bread that might have been about like so. i don't know how thick it was, but it could not have an very thick, but that's all they were given. they had an american colonel. i do not know how many months he had been prisoner. he originally weighed -- his height must have been about 6'4". he originally weighed about 230, maybe a little more, and i don't think that he weighed more than 80 pounds when we saw him. so you can imagine the horror that those people suffered under german occupation.

as prisoners of war, they did not even feed some of them. they -- it was just -- the only thing i can say is that you would have to have seen it. the pictures that you saw depicting the death in the concentration camps -- this was identically the same. >> when you first drove the tank in, did you drive right into it? holmes: no, i did not drive. i was tank commander. >> were there any people outside? holmes: not at all. >> and did you exchange fire with anyone? holmes: the germans took off and left everything as it was. even the warehouses of guns. i think this was the walter 32.

they made a 32 pistol, and these prisoners that were capable of work, any work at all worthy -- were the laborers that did the assembling of these pistols in that big huge factory to the rear. there was no other gun there but that, and they had them by the hundreds. just cases of them. it kind of, like wonder why they went to all the trouble of making those guns and could have been feeding some of those people. bradley: when you went in the barracks and found this, could you talk to anyone? tell me what else happened. holmes: it was virtually -- can you imagine trying to talk to someone that they don't even have the strength for their vocal cords to even operate?

we were warned not to give them anything like darcy rations and k rations. -- our c rations and our k rations, nothing like that. these people had to be fed a broth or something that was soupy that they could swallow that would not choke them to death. if you fed than that they could , not swallow it. if you gave them solid food -- a lot of people made that mistake. a lot of our soldiers made that mistake when they ran across where they had liberated somebody that had been under starvation conditions, and they gave them their food. the food has a tendency to choke you then, and you just choke to death. whereas if they just let them alone and let the people gradually eat soup until they get their strength back to where your stomach becomes acclimated to it. bradley: were you surprised? holmes: yes, i was. i truly was because i just could

not believe that an individual that is supposed to be fighting for the preservation of his culture and his country could be doing this to people that had no defense. i could not believe this. because you are flabbergasted. you are so shocked by what you're looking at -- i will give you a good example. i was not really surprised, yet, i was. i can say this. the 14th reconnaissance platoon was out scouting, and they ran into a bunch of nazi ss, and they were captured. and we had a hell of a firefight.

and i definitely was responsible for killing 1, 2, 3, 4 -- i'd say approximately six german soldiers myself, directing fire in on them. they captured about a dozen -- it was the 14th reconnaissance unit, and they tied their hands behind their back and tied their feet together. and i'm not telling you was somebody told me. i'm telling you exactly what i saw. and in this little town, there must have been at least -- i don't even think this town had six houses in it, but it had a little road that went down like that. and do you know those nazi ss s.o.b.'s took those young boys -- we were all about the same age -- and when they tied their

hands and feet together, hands behind their back, and they laid them out along the road, and vapor bullet -- they put a bullet right between their eyes. i can recall from this firefight, headquarters telling me that they came in from the southeast, and they had 105 guns, 105 millimeter guns. ours were 75 and 76 millimeters. we killed just -- i think we killed all of them. i don't recall us taking any prisoners. because you had to kill them. because they were not going to surrender. the nazi ss was not going to surrender. they would shoot and shoot until they were killed, and it was stupid because it's how they were raised from the hitler youth. and that's what they believed in.

they all have the insignia on their collar. that's how you knew what you were fighting. bradley: when you first came in, was there an exchange of fire? holmes: no, there was no exchange of fire. the only thing -- because we were really amazed -- what was it, the german transport. the one i opened fire on was i think transport that had high-ranking german officers in it. and of course we never saw it crash because when we shot into it, when it is approaching you and you opened fire with .50 caliber machine guns, you don't know how many slugs you put in them or who survived. you are 2000 or 3000 feet off the ground.

and it just, it is going in and the engines are smoking, you know it is going to crash, but it crashed way back to the back of us, so we never got a chance to see what damage was done. bradley: were there guards? in the guard houses? holmes: none at all. absolutely. i told you everybody, they shagged hell on out of there. whatever guns they had, they just dropped them and ran. they didn't want -- number one the german soldier was told all the way back from world war i when they had black soldiers fighting in europe not to be captured by black troops because they would cut your throat. of course, which is a lie, but during world war i, and a lot of our guys did do that.

they would infiltrate into the german lines at night in world war i, and they had razors. and don't nobody know when somebody would slap the hand across your mouth and cut your throat, and you would lay there and bleed to death, and the rest of the guys that survived you did not even know, particularly the centuries. -- sentries. you're always caught off guard. this went all the way back. as a matter of fact, the german soldiers were -- we shot up -- i don't know if you saw liberators fighting on two fronts. this one guy fighting in my outfit -- there was a bunch of germans. must have been 2000 or 3000 that came out of the woods, and german soldiers and they came out, and they took a look, and

they looked and saw the black soldiers, and they said, "what? oh, no, not you guys," and they turned around and started back through the woods, and we sent some high explosives over their heads, and they came back just as nice with their hands over their heads. they would rather take a chance then be blown to bits. come on back, and let talk turkey. bradley: when you went into this camp, about how long did you stay? holmes: oh, i would imagine we must have been there at least , inside the camp itself maybe about an hour, hour and a half. when it came orders to move out, i had already talked to this lady because she came to the door. she flagged me down, and she said soldier, -- and her english was very good. you would have thought that she

was from the states, but she was an austrian person of german descent and she asked me where i was from. i said i was from chicago. she said, you know where skokie was, and i said sure, it's right across from where my mother lives. she says i have a sister there and i wonder if i would give her a letter for her -- she said she had a sister there and wondered if i would give her a letter for her. i said sure. she wrote a letter and after the discharge i went by the house and gave it to her. of course, we did not stay in communications with one another after that because her husband was rather nasty, and i did not want to be bothered with him going back, but she was pretty -- but the woman herself was very nice. met the sister, and she thanked me for delivering that in all.

and i think the sister in skokie wound up sending for her, and if she is still living, she is in the states now. bradley: do you know what happened to the people in the camp after you left? holmes: no. bradley: no? have you been told what to expect? holmes: no. bradley: but you have been told not to feed -- holmes: only after we had secured the camp. bradley: how did you get the word? holmes: we got it from our battalion commander or one of our officers. i cannot recall if it was a major or captain that said, "do not give them anything" -- the word was passed down all the way down the line -- "do not feed these prisoners under any circumstances." because they wanted as many of them alive as possible.

because, see, they all have a story to tell also. where they were captured, how long and what concentration camp they came from. because a lot of instances, like bergen and places like that, if they needed workers and did not have enough in one sector, they would send them on a train -- boxcars full of them -- all the way down to another sector to fill out as a workforce. those that they could trust. bradley: what did the people do to you? how did they react? holmes: those that were living -- they looked like death eating a soda cracker. that's what we used to call it. they were like, skin and bones.

you -- can you imagine a skeleton trying to talk to you? and holding out his hand? can you imagine that? you get any kind of an inkling what it's like? and this is all you saw. these people could not get up. these people were literally abandoned, and i imagine that when the germans took off running, i imagine that those that were capable of going -- they herded them in front of them. because, see, upon our approach, the germans were not going to stick around. they were not going to stick around for us to see them nor how many prisoners they took with them.

and whether they kill them or not, i do not know, but you know, the orders were from adolf hitler. any prisoners -- when the americans approached, kill all the prisoners. bradley: what about any revenge against the germans because of this? do you think any of that, didn't factor in? -- did it factor in? holmes: no, it did not instill anger. number one, i think the shock of something like that -- could i explain something? if you are fighting a german soldier and you kill him, that happens. you look down at him, and you keep right on moving. that is an individual that's trying to kill you. but when you see something where here are individuals by the dozens that have done nothing to

no one, but their captors said "do this" or "do that" and you did it -- we were so shocked by this looking at it. i think the shock of something like that does not wear off right away. so therefore, you cannot -- you just can't -- i don't know how to put -- i wish i could phrase it. because i can still see it. as i'm talking to you now, i can see the whole, horrible picture. and it's not nice. bradley: do you know if there was any message to bring help to those people? holmes: oh, yes.

our commanding officer. see, we had radios in the tanks, and we had our half tracks that had communication to the divisions, and the divisions in turn would get the medics up there, and the medics would come in, and they would load these prisoners onto 2.5-ton trucks by the dozens, and they would take them back to the rear at hospitals. they would work with them until three or four months, six months, they would get their strength back until they can walk around, but when you could just look at him, some of them had sores the size of your hands on them where they had been laying there for weeks. bradley: can you just tell me

what kind of impact this had on you? holmes: the impact that it had on me was the fact that -- i never quite understood it. it is hard to -- war is -- i think one of the worst things that has ever happened to this country is that it never got a chance to fight on its own soil against a formidable enemy. it has always gone out, done the fighting on that enemy's soil. if the people in this country could actually see what total war is all about in reality, and they would have a different perspective on everything that is around them. i think they would have a little more compassion toward one another.

because when you have a race of people who think that they are superior to everybody else and everybody else is dirt underneath their feet, you're going to have the same thing -- one of the things that history says is always if you don't remember the mistakes of the past, you are going to repeat it all over again. this is something -- this episode over in germany and france and belgium and holland and luxembourg, where i fought and -- i just could not believe that the enemy could be as cruel and brutal as it was. the thing about it -- many of the germans today do not believe that this actually happened. they don't believe that the holocaust -- and the young -- i spoke at the university of portland and university of

seattle, and so many of the students out there did not believe that the holocaust really happened. they thought it was just a figment of my imagination. i said, "look, this is a black man talking to you. you are not talking to a white man. i said, i'm talking what i thought in and what i saw. i don't have to answer to nobody. what i went through and what i saw." bradley: tell me more about the condition of those people that you saw -- were they still people? i mean, what is it that brings you -- what is it that is so devastating about that scene other than seeing the enemy who was trying to kill you who you have killed? holmes: what about it?

those people -- like i said before, those people could not help themselves. they had no help from no one. they were between a rock and a hard place. you've got to do what you're told. the best thing that ever happened, what some of them did for us, which i thought was amazing, is that they sabotaged a lot of those german shells and what have you. because one of the -- on our way to the hartz mountain, i remember that when some germans dropped some mortars on us, not a single one exploded. they did not explode at all. we found out later on that there was no fuse in the shells. the just let the fuses out of the shells -- left the fuses out of the shells.

in other words, they actually saved a lot of american lives, absolutely, by defusing a lot of the german artillery shells and mortar shells. because that is the darndest thing -- when we crossed the -- think was the rhino the danube -- the rhine or the danube. we crossed this big river on the pontoons, and that was a horrible thing. i think i died a thousand deaths, you crossed this river and its like this, and you got 300 of 400 feet going across the river, and you've got a 36-ton tank bobbing up and down, but when you got to the other side and we are in the middle of this town, and we just got out of turning the tank and we needed to stretch our legs a little bit, and those no artillery fire around, and germans were up on the high ground, so the germans decided to drop a few mortars in on us.

and the darndest thing i ever saw in my life -- three of them fell right in the midst of us, not a single one exploded. bradley: go back and tell me again about the people you found. holmes: just death, really. they were walking dead, as far as i could see. living dead. i do not know how many of those people living in those barracks were dead, but i do know this -- that there were many of them. because you could see them. when you don't see any ribs going up and down as you are breathing and you look down, and you can smell that too, you know they are dead. and those that are laying there and they are trying to stretch their hand out to you and they cannot talk because they don't

have the strength -- i do not remember anyone but that american colonel being helped up, and he had to be helped up and helped to move one leg in front of the other. this is how bad it was. in other words, he was -- they had two soldiers. one with his arm around holding him up, and the other one on the other side holding him up. and his feet were actually dragging, basically. all the rest of them were still back in those bunks. this was, this was a site -- i have never forgotten that. the amazing thing to me -- mrs.

schimmel did not know all of this was going on because this was just about i would say three quarters of a mile back of her. but i imagine, though, by her being jewish, she was actually hidden. she assumed the identity of the people that protected her. there's a lot of good german people now. i think some of the german people knew what was happening but she did not see it because she did not know that all this death and destruction was going on back of her. she could smell it, but she did not know what it was. as far she was concerned, it was bloated animals back there, and not being acclimated to the smell of humans and animals, too, i imagine she assumed it was all just one thing. that's all i can attribute to

with her -- that's all i can attribute it to with her. she was just an innocent bystander. first of all, she said to me -- i asked her how she survived and she explained to me -- "well, they protected me." industry -- -- and she -- i think she had assumed their names. that is probably was saved her. i don't know if she blended in with the family or what, but this house was slightly isolated from the rest of the town, so that that perhaps is was saved her. bradley: did that experience of opening that camp have more of an impact on you than the whole general combat experience? holmes: oh, yes. see, because number one, when you are fighting and killing

you can do that with impunity. you don't forget this thing. number one, you have an enemy to kill or else you are going to die. now one of two choices, but when you see this and they can't do nothing about what is happening to them, sure, you are not going to forget it. you never will. it's impossible to forget something like that. i forget the name of the camp down around munich. is that -- no, it's not auschwitz. bradley: dachau. holmes: dachau, that's the one. we have a lieutenant in the outfit who was at that camp. it just happened -- the -- he --

his column of tanks were moving through, and he asked the soldiers what was going on. that was the only time i heard of a concentration camp, when he said that was at dachau. like i said, i never knew what a concentration camp was. i didn't even know what a labor camp was. we never had the opportunity because we were constantly on the move, and you are shooting and fighting at the same time. and it is constant. we had 183 days of combat. and it was just constantly go, go, go. to run into a situation like this was just, it was phenomenal to me. i just did not believe anything like that existed. >> you are watching american history tv. all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. during the conversation, like us on facebook at --