>> the new congressional directory is a handy guide to the 114th congress with colored photos of every senator and house member plus bio and contact information and twitter handles. also, district maps, a foldout map of capitol hill and a look at congressional middies, the president's cabinet. order your copy today very it is $13.95 plus shipping and handling through the c-span online store at c-span.org. >> american history tv is featuring c-span's original series, first ladies: influence an image at 8:00 p.m. on sunday night threat the rest of the year. c-span produces series in cooperation with the white house historical association. through conversations with experts, video towards of historic sites, and questions from c-span's audience, we tell the story of america's 45 first ladies. now, a liza johnson on first

ladies: influence and image. this is about an hour and a half. ♪ >> she was close to being broken by the time she went to the white house. >> this is the earliest existing house. they lived here in the 1830's and 1840's. >> she was educated and taught school. >> she would work. the north and south fought all over the civil war. it changed hands 26 times. they did have domestic help. >> it was used as a hospital, it was used as a place to stay and it was destroyed. >> eliza wasn't able to get out much. >> she brought home many gifts. >> this is the room she returned to. >> she is obscure. she's who he needed.

ms. swain: abraham lincoln's assassination weeks after his second inaugural shocked a war-ravaged nation. johnson's wife eliza was 54 years old when she was thrust into the role as first lady. he navigated the end of the civil war, reconstruction in the south and his own impeachment. this week on "first ladies, the life and times of eliza johnson.” we learn more, let me introduce you to our two guests. jacqueline burger is in the midst of a biography collection called "love, lies and tears" and joining us from her home in southern california. and a greenville native and long-time employee of the national park service.

and is a museum technician of the andrew johnson historic site. the country has lost presidents before, but this was the first assassination. what was it like in washington d.c., the capitol and white house, was it orderly transition, chaos or something in between? guest: it was disbelief. they could not believe that it happened. but secretary stanton took charge immediately. and he decided that the president was going to be a funeral in the east room and he went ahead and had major french set up the funeral and do everything for it. he went to work immediately to elaborate this most beautiful funeral for the president and unfortunately the first lady who was upstairs, constantly in tears and in mourning, they were building this beautiful setting for the funeral and banging and hammering and all night long she

was called downstairs and asked them to please stop because she thought gunshots were going off inside the white house. it was pretty terrifying for her. ms. swain: to the transition in government, how is it that a republican president ended up with a southern democrat for vice president? guest: it was a unique situation. once abraham lincoln was trying to appeal to the broader segment of the population. in another sense, i think he was making good on his second inaugural to bind up the nation's wounds. so he was trying to bring the north and south back together again. johnson was a southerner, he was a democrat, intensely loyal to the nation and he came to speak and he had spent time as a military governor restoring a union government and freeing the slaves in tennessee, so he was a good choice.

ms. swain: how prepared was he for the job of president? guest: he had held nearly every political office that you can hold on the rise to the presidency. it was a completely different situation going in after lincoln's assassination. just a very chaotic time. ms. swain: in fact, the new president's graciousness towards mary lincoln made it difficult for him in transition. how did it work? guest: it was difficult in the beginning. mary was in total mourning and remained there for six weeks. so the new president was gracious not to give up his office in the white house so he could give her time to make the adjustment. it was difficult on him and in the beginning he was obvious shaken to the core. he got into action very quickly and prepared to take over the presidency. ms. swain: where did he work at that time?

guest: treasury department in washington and his family was not here. ms. swain: what were his early days like? did you have a chance of how adjusted himself and how quickly he assumed control? guest: it was two-sided. at one point, it was the grand review, he had the lincoln trial and murders to deal with. on other hand, it was his golden hour because congress wasn't in session, so he jumped in trying to implement the lincoln plan of restoration for the south. ms. swain: and there were skirmishes going on from the civil war? guest: i'm sure there were and hardly settled in a lot of people's mind. and taking over this job at this particular time in this city, i mean he had a cabinet that he inherited, what were his

challenges? guest: he made the decision to keep the cabinet. he said this is what i have and i'm going to live with it the best i can and he discovered it might not have been the best decision for himself, because he was constantly struggling with them. they thought for sure he would go ahead and have a more hasher stance on the stance on the south and he didn't. he had a lenient opinion on how to get the north and south back together. he had a difficult time. ms. swain: we have used the word tumultuous, but these four years deserve the description. here is a look at some of the highlights of that time period the four years he spent in office. 1865, the 13th amendment was ratified. those of you who saw the movie lincoln," that was the great fight. the veto that led to his impeachment and suspended stanton and 1868, 14th amendment was ratified and reconstruction

amendments and it had a citizenship clause that overturned the dred scott decision and his impeachment proceedings were held. that is a look at the kinds of things the family had to deal with. did he have a vice president? guest: no. ms. swain: was there any provision for selecting a vice president? guest: the impeachment had resulted in conviction. the presidency would have gone to the president pro tempore important of the senate. ms. swain: let's move on to eliza. she arrives when? guest: about four months later that she came with her family. they had set up a situation

where she took care of the home, took care of the finances. her life was pretty well set and the fact that her husband became president didn't change things. she did follow and brought her family. two daughters who was married and two children of her own and other daughter was a widow with three children so it's very very crowded upstairs in the white house. and she was an invalid when she got to the white house and people think she didn't participate much. that isn't true. she was very much involved. started her own bedroom across from the president's office and she was able to hear what was going on. she was very active and read daily newspapers and brought different points of view to the president and able to calm him down and was the grandmother of the house as well as taking care of her daughters and grandchildren. ms. swain: her health status is the only known public statement we have from eliza johnson. which we have on screen. this was her announcement to the press. and after making it, what did she do? guest: went upstairs.

her face showed interest but no enthusiasm. another quote attributed to her, i do not like this public life at all and i will be happy where we are back to where we belong. ms. swain: what was her health problems? guest: t.b. her health weakened after the birth of her last son who was 18 years younger. and there are many references to her health. ms. swain: first question from a viewer and before i take it, i remind you if you are new to this series, there is your participation. call us and put those numbers on the screen and send us a message on the screen using the #firstladies or go to c-span's facebook page and we have questions coming in and try to

mix those in. gary robinson asked the question, was eliza concerned for her husband's safety after the lincoln assassination? guest: she was absolutely terrified. his life was in danger as well. when he was a senator, he did not want his state to secedee from the union and oftentimes his life was in danger and when the president was assassinated. one of the daughters was worried. ms. swain: there was worry. some of the investigation suggests that there was in fact part of the overall plot someone assigned to kill johnson. guest: he had heavy drinks

beforehand and lost his nerve. guest: he was stalking him that whole day and planning to assassinate him that night and he did not follow through. ms. swain: any historic documentation about how the president reacted to the threats on his life? guest: i have never heard of any. we heard grave concerns for lincoln and people did try to tell him not to go to the peterson house that night himself because of all the danger out there, but he went any way. ms. swain: the peterson house was the rooming house across the street from the hotel after the president was shot. and he was warned to stay away. guest: news was coming in.

and they knew this was a full-fledged attack on high-ranking government officials. guest: wasn't first time. there was an attempt on washington's life and many other presidents. they lived with that fact. harry truman made the comment that it goes with the territory and can't think about it and go about your business and do what you need to do. ms. swain: before we leave the relationship with the lincolns did eliza johnson have a relationship with mary lincoln? guest: not to my knowledge. once again, she stayed at home quite a bit. not that she traveled to washington. oftentimes other wives did travel to washington and spent times with their husbands. eliza didn't. she did not have a relationship at all. is that your understanding? guest: it is.

eliza did come to washington for a couple of months. but health forced her back home. ms. swain: you were describing this private floor in the white house even though the public didn't see her, there was lots of family going on. a centerpiece room was what is called the yellow oval room which is turned into a library. do we have a photograph of what it looks like today? how did they use this and what was their personal life like? guest: they were an extremely close-knit family. martha was always watching out for their mother and the grandchildren adored their grandparents and they were very close. and they would always come back in and visit their grandmother. the president spent his mornings visiting with her before he went off to business and everything evolved around eliza. ms. swain: on facebook, can you tell us about her two daughters who helped her with her role. did they serve as official hostesses?

guest: martha was the official hostess and mary supported her. mary was back and forth to greenville and was like her mother and preferred to be with the children. she was responsible for a lot of their education and a lot of their training. she did step in with her sister, but she didn't like the public life. the entire family didn't care for it. by that time, she was a widow and lost her husband in the civil war, so that was difficult on her having three children and being a widow. ms. swain: what did it mean to be a hostess in the white house? guest: eliza, even though it was a state of mourning and the war had totally ravaged the white house completely. i can't describe what disarray it was in.

there was mold in the state dining rooms. the carpeting was filthy and gave martha a couple of months to get the house cleaned up and she scrubbed it down from top to bottom. and then they had their weeklies on thursday nights. guest: a tradition we have seen from the washington administration. guest: and that is the way it is. martha washington set the role and many first ladies followed long. and johnson's intention to have the common man and common people come to the house. he didn't want to have formal dinners like by written invitation but inviting people to come in and see the president's home. ms. swain: just on that note, to capture johnson's approach, this quote from martha johnson, we are plain people from tennessee, called here for a little time

and i hope too much will not be expected of us. in fact, how did the -- mary lincoln was criticized in the press for her spending especially during the time of a war. how did the nation respond to the folks who said we are plain folks and going to approach this job this way? guest: in many ways, they loved it. one said there was a homelyness in that statement and people were craving that after the war to know that these are people who had suffered like they had and who were not going to be -- ostentatious and were going to be respectful of the position in the white house. ms. swain: did she bring two

cows? guest: martha would go downstairs and supervise the dairy operation the and would come back into the house and have an inspection of the estate floors and make sure everything was in order. yes, they did. the first family that brought animals with them. but brought cows. ms. swain: on twitter, were the johns ons very religious and did their view change over time? guest: mrs. johnson attended church. johnson did not because i think there were vague lines between politics and religion a lot of times. at that time period, we do have a letter when he thought he was dying in the 18 70's where he is at peace. so it shows that while not practicing at a church in particular, he was still a religious man. ms. swain: and before we leave this life in the early days in the white house, tell us more about how the white house ended up in such a state.

mrs. lincoln spent a lot of money and was criticized. guest: that is very true. after the president passed away, she went upstairs and was there for six weeks and the white house was open to the public. as soon as the doors were open in the morning, people were constantly coming through. there was a tremendous amount of traffic. and there was a lot of vandalism also. they wanted pieces of the carpeting or drapery or pieces of fabric, china was missing and it was in disarray. there's a lot of people coming through the white house. ms. swain: where was the security? guest: the security wasn't paying much attention. they didn't know or maybe didn't have enough support to go in and say something about it. they didn't feel like they had enough control or they chose not to and that's where the confusion came in. mrs. lincoln was upstairs and

the president was not in the white house. so for about six weeks it was run amuck. ms. swain: congress recognized this and gave the family a $30,000 appropriation, which is a lot more money than the lincolns got. ms. swain: how did they use that money? guest: martha oversaw every penny. she would take carpets cleaned and have a smaller section that was still good, put it in a different area. she took down the wallpapers and had decor put up that was simple but elegant. ms. swain: the official washington, maybe the larger country reacted well to this after the lincolns? guest: they did. they were very simple people. and washington society appreciated that. they said that they were dressed

simply but elegantly. martha did a lot with flowers and she made slip covers for the furniture. they respected her thriftiness. ms. swain: and one of the rooms she overdid was the state floor and which one was referenced the blue room and the famous east room. one of the traditions i understand that she created was by finding portraits of past presidents and bringing them into the white house. what did she do there? guest: families come into the private floors or public places and martha went down into the basement and found portraits and her father thought it was a great idea to frame the portraits and hang them up. and president johnson liked to

walk the halls of framed presidents and tell stories. margaret did get that from her mother because it was eliza who said and her husband kept going off, he said i remained at home caring for the children. i said margaret, it's martha. ms. swain: those presidential paintings have remained there and one of the more iconic if you see movies about the white house, you see the first family walking down the presidential portraits it is called the cross hall and that began with the johnson administration. you will see pictures from the national historic site in greenville, tennessee where our guest has worked for quite a long time. and we are going to start with one that shows the white house artifacts from the museum. how many do you have in the collection? is it a big white house collection?

guest: i would say a dozen, two dozen things from the johnson administration. they were allowed to bring them home in those days and qualify that. ms. swain: family collection? guest: three generations of the family lived in the house after andrew and eliza and great granddaughter lived there. so we have 85% of the original belongings. ms. swain: we are going to see some of the white house collection and our guest will be in this video in her uniform. so we'll take a look. guest: in this case, we have artifacts relating to johnson's presidency and beyond. we have one of eliza's necklaces which is a plain black cross which shows her simplistic taste.

another one is her sewing case and three of her favorite past times being as reclusive as she was was embroidery, reading poetry and scrapbooking. they did receive political gifts and this came from queen emma from the sandwich islands, which is the hawaiian islands and first time that a queen came to visit the white house. andrew johnson was the first president to have an easter egg roll. previously it was held on the capitol. it stopped during the civil war but brought it back and held it on the white house lawn so eliza could watch and being invalid and had t.b. and couldn't get out much. during the white house, eliza chose not to assume the role of the first lady.

she was very ill at that point but during the time she received gifts that she brought home with her. one of the most spectacular is this porcelain box that was given to her by the noble frenchman and had 50 pounds of chocolate bonnbonns in it and we have a letter saying they would go up to mom's house to get a treat from the bonbon box. and there was a visit from charles dickens would come visit them at the white house. she returned and brought back one of his books. she was an avid reader and gave her a chance to remember his visit and he is one of the most prolific writers. another item that she brought back was a gaming table that was given to them by the people of ireland and 500 pieces of inlaid wood.

it sits up and rolls up and looks like a regular table. the craftsmanship is remarkable. another piece is the fruit container and that was a gift from the children of philadelphia when they were in the white house. and eliza brought that back home with her when they returned. ms. swain: and on twitter, michael wants to know the queen's visit, did any other royal from the kingdom of hawaii visit the white house? guest: not to my knowledge. ms. swain: first telephone call is from abraham who is watching in hundredsville, alabama. caller: thank you for taking my call. i think this program is so great because we study so much about the presidents, hearing about the presidents' wives is

fantastic. i know that eliza johnson was educated and i wanted to know what kind of books and writings eliza was interested in the most and another question i had, what was the highest level of education that eliza johnson had? ms. swain: do you know her education? guest: eighth grade. there was a female branch of an academy in greenville at that point. and we still have some of the books that eliza had, one math and one grammar that she used to tutor. ms. swain: do you know about her reading? guest: she loved reading the newspaper and loved reading the constitutional papers that came out. she read all of her husband's speeches and assisted him with that. she loved poetry. very broad range. ms. swain: she loved to read the

newspapers. and clipping service for her husband. guest: she loved to clip things out of the newspaper and her husband was a great speaker and she wanted to make sure he had good talking points and she would read multiple newspapers and nothing missed her eye whenever she catched something her husband might be able to use. she would bring it to his attention. ms. swain: john in tampa florida. welcome to our conversation. caller: good evening and thank you for this program. just listening to what you were saying just now regarding how interested the first lady was in current events apparently from the newspaper reading, how much influence did she have over the president and his policy particularly as it relates to two things, like the reconstruction? thank you.

ms. swain: she clipped things for him and helped him with his speeches and how much influence? guest: i think she had a good calming effect and she could touch his shoulder. we know that andrew johnson had a pretty good temper and oftentimes it would show in his conversation and she was able to calm him down. we really don't know what necessarily her opinions were because she only shared them with him in private, which many first ladies do as you might suspect. but i know she listened to her daughters and asked advice. i don't know how much he listened to it. ms. swain: as i mentioned throughout the program, we'll be returning to the johnson national historic site. we have a few different pieces of video and as we look at them, how is this preserved? it's really quite a large place in the center of a small town. so what do you have there? and what are you -- how are you interpreting it?

guest: we have four different areas. it includes a museum at the visitor's certainty along with the old tailor shop where he began his political rise, so to speak. the early home which was the home from the 1830s and 1840s, and then the larger homestead a couple of blocks away which they lived in before and after the presidency and the national cemetery where the family is buried. ms. swain: how extensive is your collection -- so, for example, would you be able to research through their writings whether or not she helped to influence his policy s? guest: you can. we have a collection -- also the andrew johnson museum and library at the college. and there's some papers there as well. and unfortunately, the letters between andrew and eliza were burned later by the family. so we really don't have that interaction. she visited him every morning in the white house.

she would have a tea in her collection, a bite to eat warm for him in the evenings he would come up and sit with her as well. ms. swain: how frustrating is it to hear about the burning of letters from administration to administration. guest: martha washington started that. ms. swain: did eliza make friends outside of the family? >> i understanding is that she guest: she was a friendly person. initially historians thought that she only came downstairs two different times in the entire administration. we discovered later on that's not entirely accurate. in fact, it's ulysses s. grant's wife, julia, who wrote and said that after the state dinner that the first lady would, in fact, come downstairs. she didn't stay for the state dinner but she would come down and have coffee and literally walk around and talk to all of

the guests. she was extremely gracious. she was always dressed very eloquently and very appropriately. so i think she did make friends. she was just a very kind person. guest: when they left washington, there were people who called on her to say, good-bye and -- and they had fond remembrances of her. ms. swain: and thanked her, too. we've been learning about the role of women and society. so this question comes under that category. would we classify eliza a political equal or superior to her husband? ms. swain:guest: well, colonel crook said she had great appreciation for his office and she may have had greater appreciation even than he did being that she was so well read and well learned. ms. swain: well, now it's time to learn about how the johnsons became a couple and we're going to return to the johnson historic site and learn about the early years

together in this video. guest: we are standing inside the memorial building at the andrew johnson national historic site, seeing andrew johnson's old taylor shop. he bought the shop in public auction in the early days when he and eliza were first married and he used it as a place of business. eliza would read to him in the shot while he worked making the suits for the men of town. these are some of the books that eliza used to tutor andrew johnson with in the early days of the marriage. this is the teacher's assistance with assistance in arithmetic. this is entitled english grammar. different classes of learners. it speaks a lot to andrew and eliza, i think, they kept the books knowing the historic import they had on their lives and his future career. this is the earliest existing house that we have for andrew and eliza. they lived here through the 1830s and 1840s until he traded this home for a later homestead in 1851. they start their family here. they have five children all together. and as johnson works in a tailor shop, he finds out he's got a knack for debate. he becomes interested in politics. eliza supports him as he becomes

an alderman of the town and then a mayor. perhaps even though eliza had married a tailor and that's all she was expecting from life, perhaps she did entertaining in this room as he started the political journey. this might have been the kitchen or eating area of the home. andrew and eliza did purchase their first place while they live in this house. they bought dolly in 1842 and a few days later purchased her half brother, sam. so they did have domestic help. they would help eliza with chores such as raising the children, cutting the firewood, and cooking the meals. this is the house where they got their start. this is where they put the roots down in the community. this is where he had a this thriving business at the tailor. this is where he first entertained as he started to politics. this is a house where the children were born. this place holds a special place

in the lives of the couple. ms. swain: once again, i'd encourage you if you get to that part of the country, make a visit to greenville, tennessee to see the life of the johnson family as the federal government has preserved it through the national park service. she has the distinction in the history books of being the youngest bride. how old was she? guest: 16. ms. swain: andrew johnson? guest: 18. they were a very, very young couple. and as life has it -- i thought her life story would be a wonderful made for tv movie. she was a young girl. she was standing outside school one day talking with some friends and an dry johnson comes in to town and legend is that she is the first person he sees. he's asking for directions and she makes a comment to her girlfriend that that is her beau. within a year, they did, in fact, marry. she was 16. he was 18. they had four children every two years, i believe, she had four

children by the time she was 24 years of age. but she proved to be a wonderful homemaker and a very, very good businesswoman as well. she took care of all of the finances. and it's said, you know, she would read to her husband in the tailor shop. in fact, she herself was a great seamstress. she came from a poor family, by the way. she lost her father -- some would say when she was quite young. others say when she was early teens. and she and her mother helped to support themselves by making quilts and sewing sandals, things of that nature. she had an appreciation of what her husband did and she would constantly, constantly read to him. ms. swain: from these humble roots, they really became rather successful. so where did the entrepreneurial spirit come from? which of the two of them were responsible for it. guest: i think it was a combination. the tailor shop soon became the sort of hangout spot for men where they debated students in town after johnson started attending debating societies called him a demophany, a greek orator who had learned from the

great speakers. andrew johnson had a book called the american speaker. one of its desires in the presses was to teach the callow young to teach the country's call with lips of fire. that inspired him to the point where he just wanted to break away from life as he had known it being such a struggle into something greater. ms. swain: he had a gift. he had a gift for oratory. and there was an interest for oratory which i understand eliza encouraged, found the society for him to take part in so he could polish his skills but that was the forrey to politics, wasn't it? guest: exactly. correct. some people say she taught him how to read and write. that's not exactly true. he knew his abcs but she was very, very helpful in helping him form his letters and improve his writing skills because that is one of the things that she, in fact, learned in school.

she did encourage him to go to debating classes and that's something that they did oftentimes, you know. they'd have people come into the taylor shop and talk about politics and debate different issues. ms. swain: here is jesse watching us from san diego. you're on. caller: yes. i was wondering, after the assassination of lincoln, was -- did they make sure that johnson was heavily protected so something like that wouldn't happen again? and his wife ever go out in public? ms. swain: thank you very much. and ken said that, ken ruben on facebook. can you describe what role the new secret service played in the johnson white house? is that a response to create a sort of early secret service. guest: my understanding is the secret service began with abraham lincoln they were so concerned about his safety. not aware of anything that they tightened up more stringent than anything else.

eliza did get out. there's no question about that. unlike today, she wasn't going shopping or the market. but she did have various travels with her children and to various spots, sometimes it was for her health purposes. and sometimes she was very concerned about her sons. both of her sons had problems with alcohol. so she was very, very worried about that. ms. swain: thomas in greece, new york. hi, tom, you're on. oh, you've got to turn the tv volume down. are you there? sorry. we have to move on. ken in homesdale, pennsylvania. you're on, ken. caller: i would like to know how the hamlin white house would have differed from the johnson white house? ms. swain: how the hamlin white house would have been different. do you have a sense of how he was as vice president and what happened if he had ascended to the presidency. guest: i don't know, i'm sorry.

interesting question. ms. swain: how did eliza contract tuberculosis that would eventually have her become an invalid? guest: it's hard to know. it was rampant at that time because they didn't realize it was contagious. even the grandchildren visiting her, you know, daily in the white house. it would take its toll on them as well. ms. swain: how early in her life did she contract it? guest: hard to say. could be after the birth of andrew jr. certainly by the beginning of the 1860s, it was clear that she was suffering from consumption. ms. swain: and how often was andrew away as he became more interested in politics?

guest: considerably. he was away quite a bit. that's why -- another reason why so much of the responsibility fell on eliza. but i've also read different stories that she, in fact, was good at selling and buying stocks. here they came from these very, very humble, humble beginnings and they owned real estate, they owned other properties. she would go ahead and collect the rent from these properties. and basically manage the money very, very effectively. ms. swain: and could you walk us through the political career? where did he start in this alderman? guest: alderman, mayor. served as state representatives, state senators. governors, u.s. representatives, u.s. senator. military governor, vice president. and president and then he's the only president to this day to return to the senate. ms. swain: and what -- what were his -- how would you describe his politics? what did it mean for him to be a democrat at that point? >> well, democrats or

republicans are sort of reversed as the years have gone by. he was very much of a fiscal conservative. limited government. more of the decisions being made by the state. >> and, again, we have no record of -- other than a scrapbook that she kept where she was clipping things and what her own politics were? >> no, unfortunately, we don't. we do know that andrew johnson believe in state's rights. no question about that. and he was always putting bills forward for the common man. i know that was very, very important for him. he didn't care for the aristocrats, he didn't necessarily care for the very rich planters as he referred to them. and he won -- it was the blood, sweat, and tears of the common man that he was trying to help the poor quite a bit. >> bill in san diego? caller: i know ms. berger has written on first ladies. i wonder that mrs. lincoln was so distraught set a precedent for other widows? and -- >> no. no, actually, that's not the case at all. there are a couple of other women who, of course, lost their husbands in the presidency. garfield happened to be one of them. she was just the opposite of mary todd lincoln. she handled herself very graciously. she moved out of the white house almost instantaneously. we know about jackie kennedy as

well. handled herself with great poise and great sophistication. so, no, i wouldn't say mary todd lincoln set that example at all. >> what is known of eliza's parents and did she have any siblings? >> she didn't have siblings. you might be able to address her father more. >> john mccarter was a shoemaker. they have a boot shingle for his business at the andrew johnson museum and library opened a tavern in the town of warrensburg, tennessee as well. ms. swain: we referenced scrapbooks. i think we saw one of those in the video. do any of her scrapbooks still exist? how many still do? guest: we have one of her scrapbooks. now, on display at the house i pulled it out for the show. and that simulated a lot of interest from the public. ms. swain: what kinds of things

did she collect? guest: newspaper articles, primarily, about her husband. she would show him some in the evening, some in the mornings, depending on the tone. ms. swain: we were also in the age of photography at this point. did she collect photographs? political badges and things of that nature? >> there's a blank pardon that andrew johnson was pardoning people as president. but primarily newspaper articles. >> next up, mary in omaha, hi, mary. caller: thank you for taking the call. we were just wondering. we noticed that -- i wonder if the natural surroundings and original area around the homes have been changed. the roads seem to go right up to the door -- were the roads widened at one time or did the homes that time sit that close to the street? >> they sat that close to the street. it was right on main street and i have heard tale that it was very much a scot-irish follow-through and many of those people were scot-irish dissent.

>> to be right on inn the middle of the town and right on the street. how much land did he have on the site? >> he had half an acre with the homestead. about two acres with the yard now. but even as the later family lived there, they would buy pieces as they came up for sale. sort of make a butter around the property. >> on facebook -- visited the first married home in greenville, tennessee. i was fascinated with eliza teaching andrew to read and write and was influential on his politics. do we have evidence of eliza trying to reform president johnson of his drunkenness. one of the sons died of alcoholism. what was his relationship with alcohol? >> he was not a drunk. he got that reputation when he was inaugurated by president, he had -- i believe he had typhoid fever at that time. he was pretty down. he was low. he was trying to get himself a

little bit of energy. he had some whiskey on that day. by the time he got up to give the speech, he was slurring his words. people thought, in fact, he was drunk. he was not, in fact, president lincoln knew that. the story is people were not willing to let the truth get in of a nasty rumor. so he was not an alcoholic though his sons were. >> leroy in month cello, kentucky. you're on. caller: appreciate your conversation. it's mighty good. did either one become born again christians before they died and left this world? ms. swain: thanks. you talked about the religion earlier. would you prefer to talk about it? guest: when johnson thought he was dying of cholera, he did write a

letter sort of making his peace. and eliza was a churchgoer there in greenville. ms. swain: next up is janet asking a question from tucson. hi, janet? caller: hi, yes, mary lincoln had such a tragic time with her children and i wonder if you could talk about the johnson's children and if there are any descendents now. guest: i know she had a wonderful relationship with her children and her grandchildren. i don't know if there's any descendents. guest: a few great, great, greats. they all come through martha. the only one that has any descendents. ms. swain: and before we move into the civil war, in the video, we saw that they were slave holders. and essex and orange asking on twitter, is there any indication of how eliza felt about slavery or how she felt about those folks.

what can you tell me about the families' ownership of slaves and what happened to those people? guest: the johnsons had a lenient relationship with their slaves. we had a letter that charles, one of the sons wrote, talking about eliza's relationship with sam. he came for payment for a job he had done. she told him he needed to go to patterson's wood first. he said he'd be damned to cut at the pattersons because he didn't get paid for what he'd done. it shows this lenient relationship, two, they paid their slaves and, three, eliza was in charge of the finances. later on, august 8, 1863, johnson is -- the day johnson freed his slaves. and to this day in tennessee and surrounding states, it's still celebrated as emancipation day. ms. swain: do you know what came of

them? >> they all stayed on as paid servants afterwards. >> they all took the last name of johnson? >> they all took the last name of johnson. dolly eventually baked and sold pies out of the tailor shop. she started her own business. sam wrote president johnson at one point asking to buy land for purposes of a church and schoolhouse for the african-american children in greenville and johnson wrote back and said, no, this has the plot of land and i'll give it to you. he started that in greenville. he gave sam land and built his own house. ms. swain: the most challenging time for this family had to be the war years. and johnson was in the senate at this point. and you mentioned earlier that he was the only united states senator from the south who supported the union. where does his strong union allegiance come from? >> east tennessee was very much pro union in the civil war. so it was a different mindset, a

different type of infrastructure. a different type of farming community than middle and west tennessee more in line with the confederacy. >> what happened when tennessee voted for secession for the johnson family and tell us about their life then. >> it was very tragic, unfortunately. first of all, they were calling johnson a traitor. they confiscated the johnson home. that was a tragic time for eliza because she was quite ill. it was very difficult for her. there's a couple of different stories that they had given her 36 hours' notice literally to leave the home. she did, in fact, call her daughter -- i believe it was mary that came with her and charles and, of course, her young son who was only 10 years old, andrew jr. who they called frank. the story is they were trying to get through confederate territory and was very difficult because the confederate soldiers were all, you know, calling out to them and saying different things to them that were not very, very pleasant. one of the stories was that one night they slept by the railroad tracks, it was rather cold. they didn't have much food.

they go on various farming communities, knock on the door, ask if they could possibly spend the night there. it was an extremely difficult time. and by the time they did reach nashville where andrew was at that point, poor eliza, she was pretty well bent at that point. >> were their lives in danger? >> sure, sure. >> can you add more color to this story and this period of their lives? guest: she has taken refuge to mary's house to the summer months and as she said, we have a letter for charles where he talks about the cold, the rain, the hunger, the danger to their lives. they were travelling with mary and her husband, daniel stover had been a bridge burner in the civil war and had to hide out in the mountains the first winter of the world, they had slipped food to those men. finally made it to nashville. so that johnson wept at the sight of eliza when she finally reached nashville.

guest:ms. swain: how dangerous was this for her to be slipping food? guest: probably very dangerous. yeah. ms. swain: we know for a fact that she and mary both prepared the food. there was no question about that. i think there's some question as to who was delivering the food to warriors, you know, in the hills basically and in the caves. i mean, they were hiding out. so how they were able to get to them, i'm not exactly sure. they were able to send messengers, possibly. so they did prepare the food. that's for sure. >> at the andrew johnson historic site, there is evidence of what life was like for the johnson family in the civil war. that video next. >> the north and the south fought over the occupation of greenville all through the civil war. it changed hands over 26 times that we're aware of. so they weren't back here for

over seven years, the end of his presidency is when his daughter was asked to come and restore the house for both eliza and andrew's return. she came back and she found graffiti written all over the walls. one of the best examples and one of the tragic examples is here on the wall. it says -- andrew johnson -- the old traitor. we've actually found northern soldiers' names and their unit numbers as well as southern and their unit. in that time period, it was used as a hospital, a place to stay, and it was basically destroyed. that explains the importance of this part of east tennessee in the civil war. ms. swain: the role of governor of occupied tennessee given to him by lincoln. guest: went to restore union government in the state and it was a challenging job. and it was -- he was firing some people and staying in the defense of nashville. he also came in conflict with the generals. he wrote letters to lincoln expecting his concern, also hoping for the liberation of east tennessee. lincoln often sided with andrew johnson on a lot of the decisions that he makes. ms. swain: how old were the sons

at this point and were they involve in the conflict? guest: older son, charles, definitely was. he was a surgeon -- an assistant surgeon in the civil war, he was kill in the civil war. robert was also, as a matter of fact, i understand he was a lawyer but he also signed up and went to war. but that's when his drinking kind of took over. there were stories about him leaving his army of men and things of that nature. he had different difficulties. but absolutely the two older boys did fight in the war. guest: robert was colonel of the calvary unit. he was the only family member who was able to attend charles' funeral when charles was kill in the war. fell from a horse and hit his head? outside of nashville. and johnson and eliza were gone during that time. eliza was up in louisville and johnson had gone up to washington for a time. and so robert was the only one able to represent the family. and it's after that that it really seems that the drinking

problem started for him. ms. swain: there's another mary lincoln comparison. mary lincoln was devastated about the loss of her sons. do we have historic evidence about how eliza johnson reacted to the loss at first? guest: we know she, too, was extremely hurt. there were stories that charles was her favorite son. i don't know if that's accurate or not. just like any mother, she weeped for them continuously. but she was proud of her son. the fact that he became a doctor, that was so important to her that her children were, in fact, educated. she was proud of her daughters and the sophistication and class and education that they had received. but she didn't fall apart the way mary did. mary just couldn't seem to handle it. she had a lot of death in her life as well. ms. swain: next is kathy in bensalem, pennsylvania. hi, kathy, you are on. caller: hi. i was just wondering how mrs. johnson felt about her husband's

impeachment. ms. swain: thanks. we're going to talk about the impeachment a little later on. thanks for that question. we'll work it in as we work our way through the history of the johnson administration. the call is nan in montana. hi, nan. caller: hello. ms. swain: do you have a question. caller: my question is, the impeachment of johnson and its associated effect in history. and in the impeachment of our recent president clinton, why is there such a different effect on how he's looked upon by history. ms. swain: impeachment, such an important part of the johnson administration. let's move into that. johnson's fight with the radical republicans in congress. i'm going to have both of you talk about that.

but first of all, his big decision was to keep lincoln's cabinet. now, he was of a different party than most of them. so was he in constant turmoil with them? or do they accept him as president? guest: some of them did. probably the main ones who didn't disagreed with a lot of his policies. jon wouldn't fire him. later on, the decision to suspend him came in particular with one that information had been withheld from him in the clemency. and two, information was withheld from him in regards to the new orleans riots. so he went ahead and suspended stanton. ms. swain: how about the relationship with congress. who were the radical republicans. what was their point of view? guest: they were the ones to want a harsher reconstruction for the

south, break it to military districts. have commanders in charge of those districts. thadias stevens, charles sumner. i felt like andrew johnson in the washington birthday speech where he started to name people by names. but those were the key players. >> what was the concept of reconstruction? >> well, president lincoln's concept of it was to be as lenient as possible. and basically said that in his inaugural address when he was re-elected. and johnson believed that too. they knew they were still going to be, you know, just because the war had ended didn't mean that people's feelings had changed. and they were very aware of the fact that there were still individuals who disagreed with that point of view. they weren't going to accept things readily. and he wanted to be as lenient as possible. he thought if you just pledged allegiance to the united states that he would then give you a pardon and accept it. with the radicals in the congress and the senate, didn't believe in that at all. they thought it was treason. they really wanted to punish the southerners, there was a constant battle between them.

ms. swain: specific question on facebook from cassie meadows, we know if johnson supported the 13th amendment? guest: mm-hmm. ms. swain: so how effective was he? what kind of political capital did he have for his version of reconstruction? guest: one of the problems that johnson had that unlike president lincoln, he didn't have the ability to negotiate, okay? he was very hot tempered. he didn't like any kind of small talk whatsoever. for a person that lincoln was able to talk to the man. he would tell various stories. by the time he's ged around, he was able to negotiate with individuals where johnson wasn't as much. he had a point of view and that was it. and he would get angry very quickly and he seemed to antagonize the people that he was debating with. he had a very difficult time even getting the moderates to go

along with him because of his particular point of view and the way he presented it. he certainly was not politically correct, let's put it that way. >> and in the white house, we saw that the first lady -- in this case, the active first lady, played an important role, practicing parlor politics bringing both sides together or in some cases going to capitol hill or getting the attention of did the johnson daughters do any of this? was there any social use of the white house for political purposes? kendra hinkle: not that i'm aware of. but she did preside over the state dinners. and we have a letter that -- to mrs. lincoln that he also passed on to martha, giving the protocol of where everybody should be seated, and who should be seated first. and that was how you would pair the people up together, so that they probably played it in that manner. jacqueline berger: but that -- that's what they basically did. and i'm sorry. jacqueline berger: but the girls basically did. you know, unlike, let's say dolly madison, for instance, or, you know, a louisa adams -- they were very politically savvy. and, yes, they used their parlor

meetings and dinners and things to talk to the various congressmen and senators and kind of get their point of view across. susan swain: but an interesting -- we didn't make this connection before, but martha, as i understand it, came up to the white house frequently during the polk administration. jacqueline berger: absolutely. susan swain: the other tennessee and so -- jacqueline berger: that's right. susan swain: but did she not go to school? jacqueline berger: no, she went to school there. she was -- she went to school in washington. susan swain: no, i meant go to school off of the way that the the polk administration -- jacqueline berger: well, sarah polk was very, very gracious to her. you know, we know mrs. polk didn't have any children of her own. and she oftentimes invited the young girls in from the school that were there. and so, she became quite friendly with mrs. polk, as well as harriet lange, who was buchanan's niece. and so, she was -- you know, she kind of came in to politics through the back door, let's say. but i don't think she really impressed upon her father, or wanted to push her particular point of view. plus, she was married to a

senator. you know, her husband was a senator. so, she was very aware of what was going on, but mainly taking it from the back door, so to speak. kendra hinkle: and one of the telling sources says that someone appealed to her for clemency for mary surratt. and she said that, "i -- i feel so terribly sorry for you, but i have no more right to speak of this to him than any of the servants." so, i -- i think she kept a background. susan swain: darla is next in fryburg, pennslyvania. susan swain: hi, darla. darla: hi. my question was, are the johnsons the last presidents to own -- that were former slave owners? or were there more presidents after them? susan swain: thank you very much. jacqueline berger: oh, that's a good question. i want to say no. i am thinking of andrew -- or, excuse me, ulysses s. grant, who was definitely opposed to slavery, and he did -- no, the presidents after that did not. susan swain: so, the -- that sad part of our history ends with johnson and his -- jacqueline berger: mm-hmm, mm-hmm. and actually, you know, our first six, seven presidents all did have slaves, other than the

johnsons -- other than john -- or excuse me, john adams and john quincy adams. they were the only two of the early presidents that didn't have slaves. and it basically stopped with zachary taylor. i think he was the last president that literally brought slaves to the white house with him. after that, they didn't. susan swain: next is a question from tennessee, jonesboro, and our caller is carol. susan swain: hi, carol. carol: hello? susan swain: you're on. carol: okay, thank you. yes, my husband's mother met mary pat -- martha patterson's daughter, which would have been andrew johnson's granddaughter, some years ago. she came to jonesboro specifically to talk to my mother-in-law at the time, saying she was -- that her grandmother was so thankful that my husband's great grand -- great-great-grandfather had saved the johnson homestead and had given safe passage to the

family -- to the johnson family so that if they had wanted to go to the homestead during the war, they could have. carol he was a confederate general that at one time, was over the east tennessee area -- general a. e. jackson. carol his -- his granddaughter was my mother-in-law. kendra hinkle: well, thanks for that story. susan swain: yeah, do you any more about that? and granting safe passage, or a general that looked after the family home during the war? kendra hinkle: not in particular. susan swain: great. well, thanks for telling us about it. susan swain: so, sheldon cooper asked, "can we fairly look at eliza and andrew johnson without the shadow of impeachment over

their white house? jacqueline berger: i think sadly, historians can, but the average public -- that's all that they constantly remember. historians look aback on it and understand that he had a position on, you know, the homestead act, that he wanted settlers to be able to settle on land and develop it and build it, and then, in fact, inherit it. unfortunately, the public doesn't hear that. once again, they just want to -- you know, it's the gossip that gets being repeated year after year after year. susan swain: how does the national park service tell the impeachment story at -- at the site? kendra hinkle: well we incorporate it into the story. i mean, because it is a major part of it. you know, you try to show all sides and let the public decide for themselves how they feel about it. susan swain: so, let's tell a more full story about what led to impeachment. walk us through the steps and i'll ask both of you to tell the story that ultimately led to the house charging him with high crimes and misdemeanors. jacqueline berger: right. well, i can tell you that the senate, basically -- they had passed a -- an act of congress that said that the president himself could not fire his cabinet members without congress' approval.

and that, of course, was not constitutional. and president johnson said there's -- there's no way he's going to do that. you know, that wasn't going to be part of it. and so, when he went ahead and suspended secretary of war stanton, that's when the senate said, "okay, we're going to push this." and because he did that, he was, in fact, you know, in violation of this law. that's basically what -- one of the things that pushed it over the edge for them. susan swain: but it was a showdown. you said he and stanton had a lot of antipathy. kendra hinkle: mm-hmm. susan swain: so, tell us more about the politics. kendra hinkle: well, he suspended stanton in the fall, when congress was not in session. and then in december when they came back in session, he told them what he had done. and they basically rejected that and restored him to office in january. and then johnson went ahead and fired him.

and that was the impetus for them to go ahead and start impeachment proceedings, but the a caveat in the tenure of office side that says that he couldn't fire a member of the cabinet during the term of the president who appointed them. so, lincoln had appointed stanton, so it's like they very much hurt themselves by doing that. susan swain: the impeachment proceedings began in the congress on march 5th, 1868, and would go through may, 1868. and the first lady had a very active role in all this. we're going to take a call and then come back and learn more about this. next is john, waverly, tennessee. you're on, john. john: yes, ma'am. i was just wondering about ms. eliza johnson's reactions or feelings about her husband being nominated for vice president and subsequent rise to presidency, as well as tennessee's relation -- the people of tennessee's relationship with johnson after his rise to power. if that became more positive, or what? susan swain: okay, thank you very much. how did eliza johnson feel about her husband being tapped by lincoln for the vice presidency? jacqueline berger: she was very proud of her husband. there's no question about that. and she supported all of his decisions. but once again, she was a very private person.

so, it was fine for her husband to be in politics. it was fine for him to go to washington and, you know, be in the senate, be in congress. but she didn't want to be part of it. and yet, she constantly supported his decision to do it all of the time. and she was very much a supporter during the impeachment. i mean -- i know there was other things that were attributed to her -- that she had wished that, you know, that she could be back home, you know, where they best belonged, and things of that nature. but she honestly believed that her husband would be acquitted and was very proud of it when he was. she kept saying she knew that would happen. she absolutely knew it. susan swain: so, during the length of that -- the three months that the trial was going on, where -- what was she doing to help support her husband? kendra hinkle: it was just very much business as usual at the white house. they went on as if nothing else was going on. and -- susan swain: and that was part of political posturing, right? kendra hinkle: right. well, and the grandchildren helped a lot, you know, to keep their minds off things. susan swain: that's true.

jacqueline berger: and his -- kendra hinkle: the attorneys. i was going to say, the attorneys told johnson not to say anything. susan swain: mm-hmm. jacqueline berger: to, you know, reserve comment. "we will handle it." and so, mrs. johnson said, "we're just going to go ahead as business as usual." like you said, the grand children were around. they still had their levies every week. and -- kendra hinkle: and martha said that she didn't have time to even comment on it. jacqueline berger: exactly exactly. she didn't have time to comment and she was -- she was still busy, you know, doing so much around the house that needed to be done. susan swain: but you told us earlier that she was an avid follower of the press. so, we can presume that she was sitting there every day. jacqueline berger: oh, sure, absolutely. and reading everything. and i think that's part of the things when -- you know, when there was something good written in the newspaper, she would show him that at night before he went to bed. and if there was something very critical in the newspaper, she'd wait till morning to show it to him. but i -- my impression of it was, as much as johnson wanted to fight himself -- i mean, you know, he wanted to debate it and get out there and fight -- it was his attorneys that said, you know, don't do that. you know, you're the president. kendra hinkle: and he had a very well balanced defense team. jacqueline berger: exactly.

kendra hinkle: and colonel crook, who was a personal bodyguard and attendant there, writes that he rushed in to tell eliza that johnson has been acquitted. and he said this frail little woman stood up and her emaciated hands took mine, and with tears in her eyes, she said, "i knew he'd be acquitted." susan swain: well, on our web site, at cspan.org and then firstladies, each week, we have one special feature that you can see. and on the web site this week is a ticket for the impeachment. how popular an event was this? jacqueline berger: my understanding is that it was a very popular event. and everybody wanted to go to it. i think it was a dollar, if i'm not mistaken. i'm trying to recall. do you have a picture of that? i don't know. susan swain: i can see it, but not enough detail. jacqueline berger: not enough detail on it? okay. yes. i mean, people in washington d.c., unlike the rest of the country, very active in politics. very involved in what is going on. more people -- i'm thinking of, you know, the middle east and -- or the midwest, and certainly the west -- california -- they're -- they're somewhat removed from it. and they read about it or hear about it on the news, but it's the people in washington, d.c.

that want to be right there, and want to, you know, partake in it. so, it's very important for them. kendra hinkle: and they had different colors for different days. and the galleries were full. and a little interesting side note is that mark twain was one of the reporters at the impeachment trial. susan swain: so, if you canvass the newspapers in the time, how was this playing in the papers? kendra hinkle: oh, it was -- susan swain: columnists had started in the last administration, so there were opinion writers now following politics, not just the reporting of it. kendra hinkle: and political cartoons. susan swain: oh, that's weird. kendra hinkle: harper's weekly -- we have a whole compilation of just the "harper's weekly" articles about the impeachment trial. susan swain: and how did he fare in all of this? kendra hinkle: oh -- susan swain: was there public support behind him? kendra hinkle: some -- some -- some, no. jacqueline berger: yes. and that's why when it was good news or bad news, there was always -- kendra hinkle: right.

jacqueline berger: there was always a divide in the country. and the president just chose to listen to the people that, in fact, you know, supported him. he -- he felt very, very strongly in his views. he was very much a constitutionalist. he believed in the constitution. jacqueline berger: and his interpretation of it is what he, you know, said was going to be law, basically. and that's where it stood as far as he was concerned. kendra hinkle: and, and one source says that as much as he was, you know, vilified by some, he was just as passionately liked by others. jacqueline berger: exactly. susan swain: josie is another tennessean -- greenville actually. jacqueline berger: oh. susan swain: you're on. welcome. josie: hey. i was wondering, what relationship did the johnsons have with their slaves? susan swain: okay. now you have to tell us a little bit about yourself if you will. how old are you? josie: i'm 10 years old. susan swain: and have you been to the johnson site in your home town? josie: i've been very well close to it. i have been in it. susan swain: well, we hope we've inspired you to do that coming up soon. thank you for your question. the president from your own home town, josie. thanks for your call tonight. jacqueline berger: very good. kendra hinkle: it was a very

lenient relationship. and will, dolly's son, remembers that eliza had candies and cookies by her bed, and when they came up, and just as we talked before, the support that they gave them as they stayed on as servants and giving land and helping them. jacqueline berger: yeah, absolutely. susan swain: next is a call, this is a popular night for san diego, here's another san diegan, cathy. hi. welcome. cathy chamberlain: hi, this is cathy chamberlain, and i'm just calling to give you my compliments. this is a fabulous program. i was born and raised in greeneville, tennessee. i go back there every year. i'm very familiar with andrew johnson and the family, but i have learned more tonight than i ever have, and it's been years and years and years, so i just want to thank you for this. it's fascinating, and i'll be watching for the other presidents' wives as well. susan swain: terrific. well, we will be here all the way until president's day next

year with a break in the summer with an individual program on nearly every first lady. a couple cases, that we've combined them, but for the most part, 35 programs to tell you about the lives of the first lady and learn american history that way. you're a greeneville, tennessee native. and how did you get interested in the johnson history? kendra hinkle: wow. i guess when i was about 12, my mother told me she knew what i needed to do with my life. and she said, "you love history, you love to tell stories, you need to work for the national park service," so she said "we've got one here in town." and we went to see it and i fell in love. and when i was in high school in the anchor club, someone came and said, "who would like to dress in victorian clothes and help with the christmas candlelight tour at the johnson homestead this weekend?" so, "pick me please, pick me!"

so, and that just really impacted me. i've always loved civil war history and majored in english and history in college. susan swain: and you have at times interpreted the daughter one of the daughters? kendra hinkle: i have done martha on occasion. i have represented mary. and one of my first theatrical roles was portraying eliza, and -- and my big line was, "there goes my boat, girls. like it." susan swain: you were a history in the -- you're interested in the history of the first ladies. you're -- this is a life's work. jacqueline berger: yes. yes it is. susan swain: three volumes. you've published two of them so far. jacqueline berger: i've published two of them so far. susan swain: how did this all start for you? jacqueline berger: it really started with my name. my name is jacqueline, and i tell my audiences i'm a national guest speaker, and when i speak, i tell them that i didn't know any jackies when i was a young girl growing up, that there was jackie gleason and jackie cooper, but they were men, and that didn't count. so, when jacqueline kennedy walked into the white house and she, you know, she was tall and sophisticated and spoke three languages, you know, i wanted to be just like her. i thought she was absolutely charming and beautiful. and then of course, with the assassination of president kennedy, like the rest of the country, i was glued to the television for four days and four nights, long before cspan and cnn and fox news were all 24 hour news, we were just riveted by the assassination.

and that's what got me hooked on it, and i've been studying them ever since. susan swain: well, the -- back to the johnsons and the impeachment. he still had 10 months to go till he finished office after he was acquitted in this process. so, what -- what kind of political capital did he have left, and what were those last months of his -- of his administration like? jacqueline berger: i don't think he had much. he kept trying to instill thought for his point of view, and the things that he wanted to get through, but he just -- he had no cooperation with -- from congress whatsoever, and he just didn't know how to do it, and i think that's the sad part of the administration. is that, you know, they found him surly, basically. they thought that he might've come off a little nasty, and so they didn't want to work with him at all. it was very tough. susan swain: did he have any thoughts of running for reelection? kendra hinkle: you know, i think he kind of wanted to, but he was not chosen by the democratic party.

they chose horatio seymour. and he did have amnesty, yet in his power, and on christmas day that last year, he imposed a broad amnesty proclamation for the south. susan swain: so, what did that mean for the people of the south? kendra hinkle: that -- it forgave them, essentially, and each of his amnesty proclamations got a little more liberal each time, and this last broad amnesty proclamation first the restrictions is to you know, a certain amount of wealth or land-owners, and this last one, it pardoned jefferson davis and everyone. susan swain: now, how constitutionally important was his impeachment process? did it establish the rule for presidents to be able to fire members of their cabinet, was there? jacqueline berger: well, that was unconstitutional in the first place. i mean, they -- obviously a president can fire his own cabinet members. congress, they were just trying to do anything they possibly could to instrict a greater punishment on the south, and they just couldn't get johnson to go along with it, so they thought, "well, we'll take him out of office," and like i say it wasn't constitutional at that time, but it was the first time in history, obviously, that it had ever occurred.

susan swain: so, was there a constitutional legacy of the impeachment process that in some ways, let's look back on a history for its significance. jacqueline berger: well, i'll tell you one thing that i am aware of. there was the one southern democrat that did not vote for it, which is why he was not impeached, okay. i mean, he -- the impeachment process went ahead, but he was acquitted. and that particular republican senator, republican senator, he basically lost his ability to go on politically after that. i mean, his party just destroyed his political future after that. and it was something that was very courageous for him to do, and something that actually, future president john kennedy wrote about, in his book, you know, about having courage and things of the nature. kendra hinkle: "profiles in

courage." jacqueline berger: right "profiles in courage." kendra hinkle: and the tenure of office act was overturned in 1926 as unconstitutional. susan swain: by the supreme court. so, ultimately the supreme court had their say on it. would either of you care to comment on the -- and you are not american historians, i understand that, but on the legacy of reconstruction on either the south or on american blacks? jacqueline berger: that's a tough one. you know, i sometimes wonder you know, history changed dramatically when lincoln was assassinated. there are some presidents and some individuals that had the ability to make things happen, and we will never know as a country whether or not things would have happened differently. it certainly wouldn't have happened overnight. i mean, people did have their prejudices. there was no question about that. but it was very sad that we weren't able to move forward a little bit more quickly. the southern states imposed black laws, so even though the slaves were free, they had other restrictions on them. they still said, you know, that they couldn't own land or that they couldn't sit on a jury

trial, things of that nature. don't really know where it would've gone if -- had lincoln lived. kendra hinkle: and if there could've been more compromise between the two factions, which were so extreme. extremely divergent. it may have made a difference. susan swain: regina krumpke asks this question. what would the johnsons have considered their political high point? jacqueline berger: oh, wow. kendra hinkle: you know, i think going back to the senate. that was sort of his -- his vindication, and to go back into the senate, some of the people were still there that had presided in the impeachment trial. susan swain: do you have a different thought? jacqueline berger: well, i absolutely agree with kendra on that. there's no question about it. i was thinking, when i first heard the question, you know, of all the parties and all of the things that they did at the white house, for president johnson's 60th birthday, they threw an enormous party, and they only invited children which was very interesting. and there were parents and adults that wanted to come to

this party, and eliza came downstairs and they had -- they had a wonderful event. you know, coffee -- i shouldn't say coffee, excuse me, ice cream, and for the kids, and cake for the children. kendra hinkle: and dancing. jacqueline berger: and dancing. and it was great fun for them. and you could see the johnsons particularly enjoyed that aspect of it. so that was probably their high point inside the white house and then afterwards, absolutely, when he got reelected to the senate. susan swain: well, it's a nice segue into our final video for this program, and this is on life after the white house for the johnsons. kendra hinkle: we are now in mrs. johnson's room. this is the room she returned to after their years in the white house. we have her bed, and nearby it says she was an invalid still plagued with consumption, we have what is known as an invalid's chair. in this chair, eliza could get up during the day and partake in some of her favorite activities, and yet still relax. not only does the footrest come up, but it also reclines. being an invalid also, spending most of her time in this room, there is a spittoon by eliza's chair. this would've been necessary from the consumption that she suffered.

we also have pink washbasin and chamberpot, which incidentally is interesting because eliza's are pink and the president's are blue in his room. kendra hinkle: she enjoyed embroidery work, and we have a sewing bird by her chair clamped onto the table. and she enjoyed reading poetry. and one of the books of poems that we have that belonged to eliza was entitled the "the happy life." she and andrew suffered a lot during the civil war, during the years of his presidency, and yet one of the poems that she marked in the book is entitled "love in adversity" and it says, "that thorny path, those stormy skies, have drawn our spirits nearer / and rendered us, by sorrow's ties, each to the other dearer." that pretty well sums up andrew and eliza's relationship. kendra hinkle: eliza johnson was an avid scrapbooker, and she kept a wonderful collection of newspaper articles that she clipped about her husband, and she gathered them here in her scrapbook. and they run from the 1850s, even up until past her and andrew's death, up until the

1880s, so we can only assume that perhaps one of her daughters kept the tradition going for her. andrew johnson would come chat with her every day when he finished his political duties, and she would share the articles that she had clipped with him. the family holds that if there was something particularly good, she would show him in the evenings, but if there was something not so nice, she would show in in the mornings, because she knew he'd be in a better mood. here we have, in 1869, an article about the retirement of andrew johnson, so that was a momentous occasion in their life, when they left the white house. other personal effects of mrs. johnson include one of her calling cards, a broach, and a pin-cushion, for any of the embroidery work or sewing that she might have been doing. in many of her portraits, you see that she is wearing a lace cap, and we still have these caps in our collection. by her bed, we have additional books. one is the bible. that also belonged to eliza. and the grandchildren were a vital part of her life, and there are portraits of the

grandchildren on the whatnot stand in the corner of the room. eliza lived here throughout the remainder of her life. she was too ill to attend andrew johnson's funeral when he died. instead, she remained with a daughter and she remained with that daughter until she passed away herself in 1876. susan swain: so, based on what you've told us about eliza johnson being a homebody who really didn't love the public life, she must've been very happy to be back in greeneville, tennessee. jacqueline berger: she was thrilled, absolutely thrilled. and the irony of that is she was thrilled to go back home, and they were no sooner back home and andrew wanted to get back into politics. so, their lives kind of went back to the way it had always been for them.

she just was not interested at all, but very proud that her husband did in fact get reelected to the senate. susan swain: so, she supported his run for public office again. and did he leave her behind when he went to washington? kendra hinkle: he did. many letters inquiring after her, how she's doing, how her health is, and when he was in nashville, at one point, canvassing, he says, "let me know if mother gets worse and i'll -- i'll come back home." susan swain: we should also talk about -- i mean, he just went through this impeachment trial but when the johnson family came back to their home in -- in greeneville, tennessee and to their home state of tennessee, what was the reception at home for them? jacqueline berger: surprisingly, it was very, very good. because, you know, remember back during the civil war, they were calling him, you know, a traitor and what not. now there were signs that he was a patriot. they were very proud to have him come back, and the tone completely changed from being very, very negative to extremely positive. kendra hinkle: the townspeople were sending telegrams, "can you tell us what day you'll be here? let us know what day you'll be here, because we want to plan a reception and we want it to be good." susan swain: and this was just a native son effect, or were they -- the politics had changed and

they were more receptive to him? kendra hinkle: well, the traitor comments came when east tennessee was controlled by the confederacy. the pro-union faction had always been there very supportive of -- of his politics. susan swain: next is robert in chicago. hi robert. what's your question? robert: yes, i'd like to know if the johnson home is in the original state of franklin which was in eastern tennessee? and is it true that president johnson was buried in a flag and had the constitution on his head? thank you. kendra hinkle: ok, yes. the home state came later, but this was the area where they attempted to create the state of franklin, early on, shortly after the revolution. and yes, andrew johnson is buried with the american flag. his obituaries often say that the constitution was resting under his hand, instead of his head, so i don't know if that's just a trick, under his head under his hand, you know, the sleight of sound that changed over the years. but the family always regretted that he had been buried with his original copy of the constitution that had his writings and things on it.

susan swain: i think we've told this story, but jo obertini on facebook asked, "did eliza and andrew make a love match?" was this a love relationship? jacqueline berger: absolutely. susan swain: oh sure. and it was 50 years? jacqueline berger: they've got 48, i think they were married 48 years. and no, it was a tremendous love match. someone once said that they were the same mind and same soul. you know, i -- kendra hinkle: even though completely different. jacqueline berger: exactly, even though completely different. kendra hinkle: and it said that you know, he could be vehement he -- he was a fighter, but the one person that he leaned on completely was this frail little woman. susan swain: and i am looking for it, not successfully here, but somewhere on facebook, someone asked, "what would eliza johnson wish her legacy to be as first lady?" do we have any sense of that? and if we don't know what she wished, what should history view her legacy as first lady? kendra hinkle: well, on andrew johnson's monument, it says his faith in the people never wavered.

and i think hers might be her faith in her husband never wavered. i think that's what she would want her legacy to be. that, her, and her children. jacqueline berger: you know, so many first ladies really wanted to be in the white house. mary todd lincoln happened to be one of them. helen taft is another one. sarah polk. they were very politically involved with their spouses. and then there were a few that really had no desire and no interest whatsoever. as much as they loved their spouse and supported their spouse, they didn't want any part of politics. i'm thinking, you know, zachary taylor's wife, margaret, felt the exact same way. so, it's just -- just a difference of opinion. you love your spouse, but it's their career, and even ladybird johnson made that comment, when they left the white house. she said, politics was my husband's career, not mine. kendra hinkle: and one source said that the one thing that may have resigned her to being in the white house was the fact that the entire family was there with her. jacqueline berger: right, the fact that the kids were there with her. exactly. susan swain: ron, in boynton beach, florida, are you there sir?

ron: i am indeed, and thank you for taking my call, and it's a wonderful series. just a couple quick questions. how does eliza respond to -- on the night of president lincoln's assassination, a card was left for her husband as well? and second, just really quick, have any of your guests seen the film, "tennessee johnson," which was a wonderful film done in the '40s with van halen, or van heflin, rather, playing president johnson. it was a remarkable film for the time, and it sort of vindicated president johnson a little bit. susan swain: thanks so much. have you seen the film? kendra hinkle: oh yes, during the bicentennial, we had a special showing of it in the old capital theater, and we had world war ii newsreels go before, as it would've been when it was originally shown. susan swain: his first question about eliza and the lincoln assassination? jacqueline berger: i'm not aware that she was even -- even heard about it. you know, unlike today where

we're tweeting and calling and you know, doing things instantaneously, it took a little bit longer back then to get information down. i just know she was terrified. i don't know what he immediate reaction was. kendra hinkle: and anna cone, i think they said who it was, who they stayed with after they left the white house, said a reference that we told poor eliza too quickly, and completely devastated her. susan swain: i want to read you a closing comment here on facebook. ted flint writes this, "i read that eliza johnson looked forward to leaving the white house almost from the day she arrived, saying, 'it's all very well for those who like it, but i don't like this public life at all. i often wish the time would come when we could return to where we feel we best belong.'" and he writes, "even though she felt this way, history has shown that the johnson family behaved and lived impeccably while in the white house, with spotless social reputations." do you agree with his assessment? jacqueline berger: absolutely. and even the people in the white house, people in washington, all say that they were extremely honorable. they were probably one of the most well-liked families that lived in the white house because they were so gracious. they gave of themselves, of

their time, of their energies, their efforts, and i totally agree. kendra hinkle: one source said that he -- he was probably one of the hardest working presidents that was ever in the white house, and they also said that once you got him away from politics, he was quite a pleasant fellow to be around. susan swain: well, we hope we've added a little more contour to the story, rather than simply the first impeached president, tonight with it. and presidential ponderings asked us this in closing, "was there any public recognition or mourning when andrew or eliza passed away, six months apart from each other?" kendra hinkle: sure. there was a big funeral. the burial for andrew johnson. special trains brought in dignitaries, and people alike. and then, recently, when eliza died, the same was brought in from knoxville for her funeral and it was drawn by four white horses and led by some of the -- the former servants. susan swain: the white house historical association has been our partner and will be throughout this whole series helping us with research, with guests, and also many of the -- the photographs and other

additions we bring to the program, and i want to say a special thanks to our two guests as we close here. kendra hinkle, with the andrew johnson national historical site, which she has been working at as her life's work since a teenager, and jacqueline berger, her two books, two of three, in a series on the first ladies called "love, lies, and tears: the lives of america's first ladies" is available for those of you who are getting the first ladies bug through this series. susan swain: thank you so much for being here tonight to both of you. jacqueline berger: thank you so much. kendra hinkle: thank you. susan swain: and thanks for watching our next is on the life of the grants. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪

>> american history tv's future in the original series "first ladies" of p.m. eastern time throat -- leader -- throughout the year. this is american history tv all weekend every weekend on c-span3. >> what many of us first families take vacation time. and like presidents and first ladies a good read could be the companion for a summer journey. what better book than one that peers into the personal life of every