>> when congress is in session, c-span3 brings you more of the best access to congress with live coverage of hearings news conferences, and key public affairs events and every weekend, it's american history tv. traveling to historic sites, discussions with authors and historians, and eyewitness

accounts of events that define the nation. c-span3, coverage of congress and american history tv. >> on the next "washington journal," south carolina congressman mick mulvany discusses the charleston church shooting and the debate over removing the confederate flag from the south carolina state house grounds. then congressman paul tonko of new york talksbots upcoming supreme court decision in michigan vs. epa. a case looking at whether the epa properly considered costs in determining power plant emission regulations. "washington journal" every saturday at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. join the conversation with your calls and comments on facebook and twitter. we're back here in the last hour of "the washington journal" on wednesdays. take a look at recent magazine articles. part of our spotlight and magazine series. today we're taking a look at "atlantic" with david graham.

has written several stories about what happened in charleston south carolina, last week. and the first one i want to begin with is your look at the council of conservative citizens. and you label them and they have been labeled by other groups as white supremistacist group that inspired a racist manifesto. what is the council of conservative citizens? >> so it's -- by some estimates -- the largest such group in the country. it's descended from the '50s and '60s groups founded as a coalition of businessmen and other people to oppose integration efforts basically. these groups kind of died away after integration was legally mandated. in the '80s, it was founded by a former field organizer who felt that there needed to be some effort to basically oppose integration efforts. the manifesto says things like we oppose the dilution of the european race, forced

integration. we think that european american heritage is important. they host politicians, they give money. and they campaign for things like maintaining the confederate flag in public places. >> do they label themselves as a white nationalist group? >> they don't. they say, we don't hate anyone. they condemned the charleston attacks. they condemned dylann roof and said he may have been reading the material we put on. we believe that black-o-white crime is a serious problem, but we distance ourselves from the events. it's more things they say about opposing integration and the european american heritage. >> what is their tie than what happened in charleston, south carolina? >> what happened is in the manifesto that appears to be dylann roof's, he says he became interest friday black-on-white crime after reading their website. they maintain a careful record of what they say is an evidence of black-on-white crime. in fact, it doesn't appear to be any such epidemic.

after trayvon martin, we became concerned that there was racial violence going on and needed to do something to stop it. >> the ties to politicians here? >> earl holt iii, the president of the group has given about $65,000 over several psych else to a whole range of politicians. mostly conservative republicans. some more mainstream republicans. including several presidential candidates who have now said they're going to either donate the proceeds to charity from others or give it back. >> is this group -- how large is it? are they still influential in politics? >> that's tough to say. i mean, at the peak the group was repeated to have 15000 members. the southern poverty law center that tracks these says they are the largest such group. it's hard to know how big they are. their hayday may be past. trent lott spoke to them and many politicians did. the guys talked to the groups,

then they're called out for speaking to the groups, and distance themselves after that. it seems that they're no longer as influential. their founder died in march. gordon bowman founded the group in the 1980s. >> but now this group, where that r they when it comes to this issue in south carolina of taking down the confederate flag? >> they were a prominent voice when the flag in south carolina was initially flown over the capitol building. in 2000, it was moved to a site on the capitol grounds on a flag pole but not above the building. they were one of the more prominent groups advocating against the move. they thought that the governor had thrown the flag under the bus. he thought -- they thought that it was -- really a step against the sort of heritage of the confederacy. they were outspoken against that. >> now we see the governor from south carolina say that she believes the flag should come down from the capitol grounds. the debate started in the south carolina state legislature yesterday. you have a story that says the fight against confederate symbols spreads. that it's beyond south carolina now. where else is this issue being taken up and where is the

debate headed? >> sure. i think the most prominent place is mississippi where the confederate battle flag is in the corner of the mississippi state flag. it's been there for more than a century now. and it's unclear how the debate will proceed there. there's an emotional resonance in south carolina. there isn't immediately in mississippi because there wasn't a shooting there. you see the governor saying i think we should keep it. voters spoke in 2001 in a referendum. you see the speaker of the house who's also a republican saying we need to pull it down. there are petitions against it. beyond that there are tons of confederate monuments across the country, mostly across the south. you see graffiti, black lives matter graffiti on monuments to southern generals and leaders from maryland to texas. you see an effort in baltimore to rename a park named for robert e. lee. over the last few years, for example, you see high schools named for confederate generals being renamed. there's a range of things from the very mundane and local to the state level flag stuff. >> how has the politics of this shifted? >> very quickly.

i think nobody expected quite how fast south carolina would move. south carolina's had this flag for a long time. even whether it was moved in 2000, a huge controversy. it was really acrimonious. and moving in elsewhere on the capitol grounds was seen by many people as a really -- insufficient half measure, and by others as a really irredeemable betrayal of heritage. so for so quickly, something like this to happen on friday you had senator lindsay graham of south carolina saying, you know if people want to talk about this that's fine. but i don't think we should distract from the real issue which is the material racism. by monday, he was saying, the flag needs to come down. what we've seen is the debate can move very quickly. we saw this also in merchandise. amazon saying it won't sell confederate flags, ebay saying the same. walmart pulling it. these are all thing where the flags have been sold for as long as the outlets have been around, and suddenly they're being pulled off shelves real and virtual. >> we want our viewers to weigh in on this debate as well over the confederate flag. republicans 202-748-8001.

democrats, 202-748-8000. and independents, 0002. some said the debate over the confederate flag is becoming so big that people are forgetting about what happened at that church in charleston, south carolina. and this violence against the people that had come to the church that day. violence at black churches is nothing new. you wrote about that as well for "the atlantic" magazine. >> that's right. there's a long history of this. it goes back it's as old as the united states. you see riots in philadelphia in 1790 where black churches are attacked. you see black churches being attacked frequently after the civil war during the reconstruction era and in to jim crow. i think the 1963 bombing in birmingham is the one everyone knows best. four little girls were killed. then you see even in the 1990s there was a whole string of arsons against churches, mostly black churches mostly in the

south, president clinton spoke against them, and there was a federal panel that went to investigate. and now you see that again. i think that although the causes and the organizers are different, the ideas of attacks against black churches is something that's an importance strain of american history. >> you write, you posed the question in your story how much has changed since the birmingham church bombing. how much has changed? >> i think a lot and a little. the fact that we're still seeing attacks, there's a common thread. there are changes, though. in the birmingham attack, it was a group of klan members. there was an organized effort. you had strong institutional racism. now you see systemic racism in places. if you look at many outcomes in south carolina there's large racial disparities. dylann roof appears to have been a lone actor wasn't part of an organized group. in fact, you see groups like the council of conservative citizens condemning the attack. >> we're talking about the debate over the confederate flag and violence at black churches.

we want to get your thoughts as president obama and leaders in congress head to charleston, south carolina friday. the president will give the eulogy for the pastor of the church. as we said, some of the leadership in congress also planning to attend. go to c-span.org for more. bill from georgia, a republican you're up first. go ahead. bill you've got to listen through your phone and turn your tv down. that's a reminder to everybody. eugene in cardington, ohio a democrat. hi eugene. >> caller: hello, how are you? >> good morning. >> caller: good morning. my contention about this entire issue is that there wasn't -- this wasn't something that came to these politicians as an epiphany of any sort. the bottom line is is that with the killing of the parishioners at the church, the public outrage became so great they

basically had no choice in the matter. and the reverend at that church very great man, i think if i'm not mistaken also served as state senator in south carolina. and to me it just reenforces my cynicism about the political class in that state and maybe in d.c., as well, that it took one of their own getting murdered before any urgency was -- before any urgency was applied. that's the sad part of all this. i thank you very much for taking my call. >> all right. david? >> i think it's the sad truth of the civil rights movement for a long time. often requires deaths before politicians do anything. you've seen major movement on the civil rights family-leave act after the birmingham bombing. you've seen legislation after martin luther king's death. it's often the case that these issues are out there. people know they're an issue. it takes -- the only thing that

will actually get the balls rolling on the political process is somebody dieing which is a tragic facts. >> what happened after the birmingham bombing legislatively? what happened after these major events? >> so john f. kennedy spoke shortly after the bombing, the next day and condemned them. in fact, the bombing was parts of tension over and court order to integrate the schools. it was from those speeches that the civil rights act of 1964 got underway, was not passed while kennedy was alive obviously. but lyndon johnson signed into law the following year. >> stygler, oklahoma. lisa in independent? >> caller: hi. my name is lisa i'm from oklahoma. thank you for taking my call. >> you bet. >> caller: i am so sorry for about what happened. i mean, that is so evil. how a person can go into a church of god and stay there for an hour and just kill people for

no reason. people are taking it out on the flag. we have a lot of people that died for that flag. people are crying take it down take it down. we had veterans we had african-american, we had brothers against fathers, brothers against brothers. we have -- native americans died for that flag. it should stay up there. >> okay. take a listen to what hillary clinton had to say running for the democratic nomination. she was in missouri yesterday and weighed in on this debate over the confederate flag. here she is. >> i know it's tempting to dismiss a tragedy like this as an isolated incident. to believe that in today's animals, bigotry is largely behind us. that institutionalized racism no

longer exists. despite our best efforts and our highest hopes, america's long struggle with race is far from finished. we can't hide from hard truths about race and justice. we have to name them and own them and change them. that's why i appreciate the actions begun yesterday by the governor and other leaders of south carolina to remove the confederate battle flag from the state house. [ applause ] recognizing it as a symbol of our nation's racist past that has no place in our present or our future. it shouldn't fly there.

it shouldn't fly anywhere. [ applause ] and i also commend walmart for deciding to remove any product that uses it. >> hillary clinton on the campaign trail yesterday, weighing in on this debate. david graham, what are you hearing from these politicians versus what lawmakers -- you talked about john f. kennedy saying when this has happened in the past. >> uh-huh. well, i think on the flag issue what's interesting is there's really been a sense among many lawmakers i think for a long time that the flag ought to come down and that it's really a relic. the case that they're concerned about primary voters. they're concerned about voters who are upset about this. the voters -- i think many people who have spoken in support of the flag or declined to say much in the past are republicans. the voters who are upset about the flag aren't going to vote for them anyway. the voters who think it's important to keep the flag up

are the ones who are going to vote for them. they're disinclined to speak out. what you see now is the national pressure is so great that they're kind of giving in. i think it's interesting even in south carolina. there was a poll earlier this year. 50% of people in south carolina said the flag should stay up. 48% of people said it was bad for the state's reputation to have it up. >> blocksomsburg, pennsylvania. david, good morning. >> caller: good morning. we're putting symbolism over substance here with this confederate flag deal. you know, it's a battle flag of virginia. the battle flag of the south. these were all american soldier in a time when america was at war with itself. it's a contributed to those who have fought for a cause. now, if other wa-- if walmart wants to ban the confederate flag and amazon and ebay they should ban the pictures and flags of a communist racist who killed thousands of christians

and gays in the pursuit of communism for castro and the revolution and everybody else. now it's not getting to the real point that all lives matter. not just black lives, but all lives. it was a terrible thing what happened in the church down there. absolutely terrible. the person is truly evil, and he should face the ultimate penalty for what he did. but you can't go blaming a flag for it. look at the person. look at the mentality of what is going on. you know, this country is in a downward spiral. 47% of the people in this country are looking for -- receiving benefits from the government. there's no inspiration to go out and work -- >> david, before we go too far down that path, i want to stick to what you were saying. go ahead, david. >> i think david is exactly right. there is a question of symbolism. i think people who believe the flag should come down have say two things about that symbolism. one, it is a symbol of a rebellion against the u.s.

government. the people who were -- they wanted to secede from the union, they did not want to be part of the u.s. the rebellion was really about slavery. it was about white supremacy. the question is not is the symbolism but what does the symbolism mean and how seriously should we take that. i think a lot of people think that it's antiquated for the symbol to be here. maybe this is not about directly related to shootings in a church, but it's long past time for the flag to come down. >> middleton, wisconsin. sergio, a democrat. good morning. welcome to the conversation. >> caller: good morning to both of you. i have -- the last caller is totally wrong. and i just -- i don't understand why he was bringing it up about the 47% -- my opinion, that flag that flag that represents pure evil and hate for all classes. we live in 2015. and that flag was during the civil war, and the union won.

and it's not like we're flying nazi flags around the country. you know what i'm saying? this flag represents hate. and dylann roof was caught with photographs, you know, holding that flag. and that flag represents pure evil and hate. i'm glad that republicans and democrats and -- people in the middle also don't forget that attendance in this are having a say so in this. it's just regular people throughout the country are just coming together. >> yeah. that's -- that's the conversation we're having this morning here. i want to keep getting everybody's thoughts on this. the debate over the confederate flag and also david graham from "the atlantic" is part of our spotlight of magazine series writing as well about the history of violence against black churches in this country. arnold in wichita, kansas, an independent. hi, arnold. good morning to you. >> caller: good morning, c-span. thank you for the wonderful work that you do do. i just wish that everyone who

would speak would sometimes do more fact checking. the hypocrisy and the political correctness in this country is starting to turn my stomach. number one hillary clinton in 2008 wore a confederate flag pin on her suit when she was campaigning in alabama and south carolina and mississippi. it was also bill clinton that signed the authority for the -- for arkansas to fly the confederate flag over the capitol of arkansas. it is a symbol, that's all it is. the political correctness in this country is pure hypocrisy. i equate the united nations flag the flag of the national socialist democratic party with the nazi flag of germany. the confederate flag was nothing more than the flag symbolizing a seceded hopefully to be nation which thank god never occurred. that's all that it recognizes. i just wish that people

particularly the young speakers, the young people who appear on these tv programs, would do their fact checking before they buy into the hypocrisy of the left or the right. >> okay, arnold. all right. david? >> i think there is a real shift going on in the politics. i mean arkansas when bill clinton was governor and now, has -- the flag is designed to pay tribute to the confederate flag. and you had as recently as 2003 howard dean saying i want to be the candidate who appeals to the guy with the confederate flag on his pickup truck. it's hard to imagine many candidates, and particularly democrats saying that today. the politics have really shifted a lot in the last decade. i do think that an interesting thing about the flag that we need to reconsider is while this flag is a symbol of the confederacy, it disappeared largely after the civil war. and it was really only revitalized during the 1890s and particularly the 1916 as a symbol of sort of opposition to

integration. south carolina ran up the flag in 1961. didn't fly there before then. while it may be a symbol of the confederacy, the cases in which it was flown up were often cases of trying to highlight white supremacy and opposition to black equality. >> i think caller might be referring to the story on "daily caller's" website. they report although confederate flags and emblems attach themselves to our wiped off store shelves by management and local dmv license plates offices in virginia, then arkansas governor bill clinton and tennessee senator al gore flaunted the symbol during their 1992 campaign for the white house. rectangular clinton-gore 1992 pin, campaign pins of the confederate flag were passed around as well as circular confederate flag pins showing clinton's and gore's heads atop a agree confederate uniforms with the words "sons of the new south" emblazoned on the pin. that's on "daily caller's"

website. clay in north carolina, republican. hi clay. >> caller: hi. i just want to say we just cannot bury or history. due to the circumstances that happened in charleston, it was just hatred. a lot of people, it's -- that have that flag do not feel that way. they're just proud wherever they are, where they're from. and they have no hatred toward anyone. >> clay, what do you think about there debate that's happening in your state legislature to take the confederate flag down? >> caller: i think they're just trying to pass the ball to something else. let's just get to the serious fact. there's just so much hatred. >> how do you deal with that, clay? >> caller: just try not to be part of it, and to love everyone. we all have to get along.

whether that flag hangs or not doesn't represented who we are. >> that was clay. ed is in d.c., democrat, what do you think? >> caller: good morning, c-span. good morning. how are you doing? i think -- i agree with hillary clinton that that flag shouldn't be flown anywhere. and we have to go on to state the civil war is over with, and we're not in the civil war no more. this flag it is done for. i disagree with the caller that said that it represents -- the nation's history and so forth. but things changed. even though hillary clinton may have won a pin or the president of the people may have worn pins, things change over a period of time. we have to unite this. things must go on and be united in this nation and also the media that broadcast the 50,000-watd clear channel. this is against our people. we need to eliminate these

things. so you understand that we -- [ inaudible ] >> ed, our connection not so great with you. i'll leave it there. david, the president's headed to charleston, south carolina. ed was talking about uniting this country. what do we know about what the president will say at the eulogy on friday? >> i don't know that we have a great deal of detail. he's going to speak about unity hooemp talk about violence. you know we've seen him this doo this so many times. really eulogies have been maybe obama's signature speech at this point in his presidency. whether that's sandy hook or beau biden or now clementa pinckney. >> michael in gerard, illinois, independent. hi you're next. >> caller: thank you for the call. it just seems -- it's a giant waste of time. other countries like germany, more ahead of us have outlawed dumb symbols of racism and slavery and things. get rid of the nazi symbol, it's illegal to show it there. they use the confederate flag. here we are, the news is -- this

is all we're talking about. how about talking about the children starving, the jobs economy, immigration? we're wasting our time. we are so far behind other countries that this debate's -- it should have been put to rest 20 or 30 years ago. we're wasting our time. we've got real issues. get rid of this racist symbol. everyone knows it was just made for white people to get in the way of black people doing work because they didn't want to do the work. that's why they have slaves. they were lazy. that's all it was for. anyone who says they were proud of the people that fought for that are just plain idiots. it makes no sense. let's move the country forward on things that matter to regular people. >> thank you. gary's next, republican in florida. gary, tell us your thoughts. >> caller: i'm wondering if you're going to take it down. should it be retired with some honor by a southern heritage preservation, even re-enactors that receive the flag with honor? otherwise, you just go to the

other side and put out the fire with gasoline. >> gary's going wonders what's going to happen with the flag go in a museum, move to a different location. the south carolina legislature hasn't decided. the governor's saying take it down, but she doesn't have the authority to do so. >> that's right. the debate's going to take a while. the vote was to open debate, a formal step. the debate probably won't happen until after the funeral. we're looking at next month. it looks like there's some whip counts of the legislature. it looks like it's likely to be voted against. but it's not -- not the majority in either house so far declared. we'll see what they decide and see what they decide about what might happen with the flag, whether it could be flown somewhere else or retired. >> it was interesting yesterday that over on the senate side the state senate side you heard from paul thurman son of the late senator strom thurmond. and he said it's time to take it down. >> that's right. it's a remarkable step.

>> his father a segregationist. >> right. the dixie-crat presidential candidate in 1948. it's amazing to see this movement. >> tina in wisconsin, democrat. hi good morning. >> caller: yes good morning. thank you very much for taking my call. i really love c-span. it's really an informational and sometimes depressing but encouraging to know that people are aware of what's happening. it should come down. i grew up in the south. in that time of all of the problem that we were having. and we're still having problems but we can work it out. it's a sign of oppression. and it's a sign of hatred. so we can't go forward that. as a race and as a country. it should come down. >> okay. all right, tina. connie in illinois, independent. we're getting your thoughts this morning on this debate over the confederate flag and violence at black churches. what do you think? >> caller: i've got three

comments. the war was not fought over slavery. that's a fact. the shooting in charleston was done by a nutcase that took a picture of him and the flag, and this has been -- the flag has been used by racists for forever. but if that kid is so racist against blacks, why was his best friend black? his very best friend was a black kid. he's been on tv many times talking about his friend, the shooter. >> okay. all right, connie. david, what do we know about dylann roof? you wrote about heim -- his information that he got from the website of the council of conservative citizens, it's been called a white nationalist

group. and the headline of your piece is the white supremacist group that inspired a racist manifesto. >> sure. so you know we know that dylann roof appears to have had friends who were black. we also know from talking to his friends that he seems to have adopted this racist ideology relatively recently. he says after the trayvon martin shooting. the aftermath of that. so you know, i think we have to take heim -- somewhat at his word. we have pictures of whim nazi symbols. we have him saying he was inspired by what he thought was black-on-white crime. we have his quotes in the church as he was leaving. i think that we just basically have to take -- there's no reason to believe it was not inspired by race, despite the fact he may have had black friends in the past. >> covington, georgia joe. good morning. >> caller: good morning. taking the flag down is not going do anything unless we get the whole story out of there. i would like t