to her. lucy is so much more. as is her husband, frankly. and remember, everything she accomplished in the white house came in spite of the fact that her husband's legitimacy to be president was questioned right until the day he left office. >> she was a charming person, very delightful. she was innovative with the arts. >> one of our more controversial collections is the white house china. journalists of the day wrote scathing articles. who is innovative with the going to be wanting to be eating this lovely meal and see a duck? >> she took an active interest in public affairs from an early age. >> she had a college degree and she had taught. >> two causes very important to her were veterans and soldiers and also orphans, which children who had been made orphans as a result of the civil war. >> she combined all of these roles. she manages to be a very devout

mother. she doesn't neglect her children but she also embraces the life. >> lucy wrote women's minds are as strong as man's, equal in all things and superior in some. born >> lucy wrote women's minds are as strong as man's, equal in all things and superior in some. born in 1831 in ohio she was the first, first lady to earn a college degree, and her life tells us much about the times in which she lived. experiencing the civil war reconstruction and the guilded age and social forces usher in an era of enormous change. welcome. tonight we learn about the 19th president's. she is the author of the first ladies of the united states of america, a collection of biographies published by the white house historical association.

welcome. and 1876, this country is joy usly celebrating what the 100th centennial and it's an election year. the election is greatly contested with no clear victor. tell us about the atmosphere with which they arrive at the white house. >> it's pretty schizophrenic, to tell you the truth. they're coming to the white house but they don't even know if they're actually going to move into the white house because the election is not yet decided. what's happened is that tilleden and hayes were in the closest elections and tilleden wins the popular vote. but there are three states where the vote is so tight that the parties are tackling each other. each person -- the republicans are saying we won, the democrats say we won. so he goes to bed and thinks

he's lost and gets up the next morning and finds out that the republicans are challenging the vote in throw states. and if they actually win he gets the number of votes he needs to become president. well, they go through all these negotiations back and forth. there's congress is involved. but literally it's not decided until he arrives in washington. when the deals are finally set. so when -- you can only imagine sort of the schizophrenia. the joy fear, disappointment, everything you feel on this train coming to washington. >> and so worried were they about the possibility of a democratic coup the inaugural day was sunday and so there was a private swearing in at the white house. >> absolutely. and then he gave his address on monday the next day. but the country itself is still very unsettled.

the civil war, even though it's been over for 1 years, is very much in people's minds because it's such a personal war. i mean, everybody has been affected by it. and now you're trying to figure out how are you going to end reconstruction for him it's how do you i mean, end reconstruction and try to stay true to your principles. for the democrats it's how can we hold his feet to the fire to get rid of the troops down there and give us back our land and our customs. >> while she's got all this technological revolution. and try to stay these new kinds of engines being done. labor unrest. great railroad strikes. you have the telephone just gets premiered in philadelphia. you have the typewriter. you've got all of a recession that's got everything sort of the first major depression that we have. so the country is trying to

figure out what's going on. >> so they come to the white house with a great deal of government experience. >> yes. >> three-term governor of ohio, has served in congress, very popular governor of ohio. what do they do to establish their credibility when they get to washington? >> well, they just -- their personalities take over and they begin to tribe to acknowledge the fact that the election is really controversial. they know that he's being called your fraud lnsy. they've been called names. what he does with his inaugural address is really set the tone for this. he makes overtures to the democrats, he opens the white house up. they begin to really try to engage in a public conversation and tackle the issues that sort of tarnished the republican party, if you will.

the corruption of the grant administration when he says he is says he is going to do civil service reform. when he really pledged to pull the remaining troops out of the south assuming that the governors -- that the government in new orleans and columbia will honor their commitment to black rights. so he's trying to really extend an olive branch to people to say i'm addressing your concerns. i hear you. and i'm only going to serve one term so let's figure out how we can make the most of this together. >> how did lucy assist him in this effort? >> well, she was very true. she understood politics, how to entertain, how to facilitate conversations between people that were difficult, how to really bring people at the table in a way that would advance her husband's career.

she was charming. everybody liked her despite the no alcohol edict in the white house. so she was able to grease the skids for him in a way that made him seem appropeable and ethical and blunt. >> we have mentioned that she was the first first lady to have a college degree. but this is a time of enormous change for women. at the fair, the world fair, all kinds of new devices labor saving devices are being introduced for the home. the vacuum cleaner, early washing machines, and women were beginning to take advantage of this by beginning to move into the workforce. how is lucy -- she seen a symbol for this kind of woman? >> i don't think so. because i think it's very easy to overstate the importance of the new labor saving devices and how many women went into

the workforce. i mean, the women in the workforce already have the work. and the women who really entered the workforce by their own volition and their own interest really are the generation after her. so when she comes to the white house, only 5% of women who work are working in what we would consider today white collar jobs. like sales and stenographers and secretaries and you know professors. and educators. it's still very, very closed. she's on the cusp of that. what she's -- to me the thing that's really interesting is how she's sort of stuck in a middle in a way that doesn't make her stuck. i know that sounds weird. but the movement is totally dieded along the lines of race and whether women can vote or not. and lucy is the first college

educated first lady. she's nursed during the swars. she's seen more wounds, battle, scars, oompleties, more suffering than probably any first lady other than maried to lincoln. but yet she's dash mary todd lincoln. but she is not an avanity guard reformer. she is trying to find her own voice. so it's hard to put her in a pigeon hole. >> that's tricky. washington looks on her as a -- temp rans issues. but they also look at her, as lovely vivacious, happy, congenial and then she does, shall we say, exent rick but gorgeous china and the press goes insane over it writing as

your credits opened about how difficult it is to eat food and move and see a quail in the middle of your plate. >> you mentioned the press. we had a point in history where the press is covering the first ladies and they become an object of national interest. >> the press really is taken with her. they call her -- they use the title first lady more for her than they have for anybody. even though it was referenced to mary todd lincoln. but they really -- they like her. they see her as vivacious. they see her as somebody who is different. they're fascinated that she went to college. so they really do follow her in her own right. we're going to take you to their home in freemont, ohio. you see a picture on your screen. the home where lucy rutherford and her family lid.

and the home library and museum help inform visitors as to what they were all about. our first segment takes us inside the home to learn about lucy as a political partner. and about some of the causes that were important to her throughout her adult life. >> this is a painting that shows lucy tending to a wounded soldier during the civil war. two causes very important were veterans and soldiers and also orphans, children who had been made orphans as a result of the civil war. this painting was created to hang in an orphanage here in ohio of which she was very supportive. so it kind of reflects those two issues that were important to her. when people associated with those causes would come here and visit, they would sit here

in this formal par legislator. it was host to a number of reunions of civil war veterans. the 23rd ovi was the unit that rutserford served in. future president mckinley was a member of the 23rd ovi so he and his family were frequent guests here. veterans groups were always welcomed here. and when they would gather here on the grounds, when they would come into sit and talk they would sit in this formal par legislator. lucy was such a wonderful hostess. she wanted people to feel very, very welcomed here. so this is where they would sit. this is where they would discuss the issues of the day. they would have hosted a number of political figures here for dinner including taft and mckinlly. also sherman was a guest as well as a number of other local and national political figures. so as a political partner with her husband entertaining these figures and serving in that role as hostess at these dinners would have hostess at

>> she was a important. partner to rutherford. she was a sounding board for him. she was a gracious hostess. she was able to engage people one-on-one. and to make anybody that she talked with think that they were the only person in the room and the only person that she really wanted to talk with. >> now, one-on-one. and to make anybody the contested election didn't end after they were sworn in. and there was a congressional inquiry. we have one of many quotes from her. here's one where she said sometimes i feel a little

worried this press and annoyance going on but i keep myself outwardly very calm but inwardly there is a burning venom and wrath -- all under a smiling or pleasant exterior. >> she's very defensive of her husband and his image. and that she does have a little bit of anger in her. but -- >> sounds like a good politician in her own right. >> yes. >> able to mask the inner wrath. >> right. >> one of my favorite things about that is that shows her passion and her ability to sort of hold it in is at the a burning end of the civil war she was just furious that everybody could start talking about reconciliation and forgiveness. and she was saying mercy is one thing but we have to have justice and mercy. >> i would like to invite you as we do each week to be a participant in our program.

there's several ways you can do that. send us a question or comment by twitter. please use the hash tag first ladies. and you can go to our facebook page on c-span. there's already a discussion under way. now, to illustrate what kind of a person she is. she had a lifelong interest in helping her hub band. >> in 1879, an old 1812 soldier came to the white house received an honor and he is supposed to have his picture taken. when he arrived his uniform came separately and he was

disstressed that the sergeants stripes were not on the uniform. so lucy grabbed her sewing kit, put them on and the british minister came in saw the first lady of the united states sitting on the floor. >> at the white house. >> at the white house putting on the gentleman's rank. >> which is how we learned the story i would imagine. >> yes. >> so it's important for us to move on for a bit on lucy and the testimony prance movement happening. first of all, today we often see the expression or nick name lemnade lucy. was she known at the prance movement time by that? >> not at all. in fact, tom and i were talking earlier. we can't even find where the reference first appeared. but it's one of those things that's just become apock cabble about her. one of the things that's interesting about lucy is that she supports tem prance but

never affiliates with the women's union which was founded in ohio her own state by people that lived within two hours drive from her. and they're always trying to co-opt her. so she's -- she comes to this from her mother's father. her maternal grandfather who was a member of the state legislature who really made her sign a pledge when she was young not to drink alcohol and that just sort of carried over with her. but she was never really a carry nation type follower. >> so dave asking on twitter. first, did she ban alcohol from the white house?

>> actually, no. her husband made the decision to ban alcohol from the white house. and it was a decision partly political. he wanted to keep the republicans within the party who were defecting to the prohibition party. he also wanted to set the morme tone because alcohol was the who were defecting to the prohibition party. he also wanted to set the morme tone because alcohol was the drug of choice in those days. there were many families that were ruined, you've heard in this series, about the sons of presidents who managed to ruin their lives with alcohol. and he was never a prohibitionist. he never thought >> actually, you should outlaw alcohol. he was -- he thought that the people who were running the prohibition party were political cranks who would outlaw dancing and card playing. and he just was -- wanted people to learn by education. >> how popular was the tem prance movement? >> at his time not vary. it really takes off at the end of the century.

they come in at the beginning. the thing that -- the reason that it begins to really take off is when it merges with the women's suffrage movement because at the time of -- when they first move into the white house, only 23 states allowed women to control their own property. and so one of the big problems with alcohol was if women worked their wages legally belonged to their sons brothers or husbands. they could not cash their own pay checks or collect their own wages. so men would take that and go into the is a loans and spend the women's money on alcohol. >> but also not just on -- the sloons also gave you shelter and gave you food. and were political basis. they also gave you really cheap beer. and so it was -- it's a complicated issue because it's really easy to say oh they're just turning everybody into alcoholics when what they're

doing is feeding people, organizing people, giving them a place to party and encouraging them to drink and not having women's recourse over their own money. so that's why it really takes off. because it leads to prostitution, it leads to bankruptcy. and it leads to veernral disease. >> lucy was officially lobbied by the tem prance movement to become a public advocate for their cause. did she agree? >> she did not. she stuck with her husband and didn't feel that women should be allowed to vote and it was not a -- she was not an advocate of women's suffrage. when women's suffrage came to the white house she showed them around gave them a tour but did not buy in. >> here as quote that really helps to illustrate that. she said it is a great mistake to suppose that i desire to

dictate my views to others in this matter of the use of wine and such drinks. i do not use them myself, but i have no thought of shunning those who think and act differently. >> we learn that first of all she as fabulous politician. the second thing is that she is not an absolutist or a moralist. what she's got is she has made her decision. she believes that moderation is good. and that like her husband she's in no way interested in outlawing everything. and that she is views to others in this matter of the use of wine and such sticking to her own beliefs while trying to be respectful of others. >> how is it that the women's christian tem prance union came to create an official portrait of lucy? >> well, they wanted to memorialize the decision not to serve alcohol in the white house. and lucy was not pleased by that decision. the first thing they wanted to do was build a fountain and she said i don't want my memorial

to be a water fountain. i want to be in the hearts of people rather than on a piece of canvas or -- particularly the irony of it being a water fountain would certainly be galing. she was also not happy that they were trying to raise some money to do this, a dime at a time. she said i think i'm worth more than a dime. >> but it became the official white house portrait. and we are showing to you on screen so you can see how we have for history preserved lucy. how different is that view of her from the woman you've come to know? >> very different. i mean, i just think the woman that tom has so eloquently described is an enigma. she's trying to figure out how to be her own person. she's been stereo typed in a way that mary todd lincoln was stereo tippede. and it doesn't show the courage and the incredible guts she

had. i mean, i just wish america understood. if i could tell them one thing about lucy that i find stunningly haunting is how much violence she saw up close during the war. in surgery and out. not only in i could tell ohio hospitals but going to her hub band's camps where her brother joe was a surgeon. she went in and out of the operating rooms. she did well, they wanted to memorialize the decision not to serve alcohol in the white house. and lucy was not post operatives care. she saw people without anesthetics suffering. when four soldiers two of whom were wounded two of whom were significantly ill were late and mizzed their train to chicago, she opened what she called her back par legislator at her house so that they could stay. it makes perfect sense to me

that she sewed that sergeants' stripes on. i would be absolutely convinced that that's the least she owed that man for what she knew he went through. >> on the subject of violence. >> well, there was a report that a bullet went through their par legislator window in columbus -- parlor window in columbus before they came to the white house. there was no secret service. they pretty much took it as it came. their son web carried a pistol and

>> well, she was an abolitionist right from the start. the republican party was the party of abolition. she was an admirer of john c. freemont and his wife. and so it was logical that he be a republican right from the beginning. >> on the women's suffrage movement which was really burgeoning, and the famous name elizabeth katy stanton, part of the women ds rights movement came to the white house to see the president and how did they react to her personal petition for them to be involved in the movement? >> they rejected it. they did not support women's suffrage. and elizabeth katy stanton at that point had become an

exceedingly controversial person in republican circles. she had cast gated lincoln for his abandonment, her word, of women during the civil war. she was very much opposed to the 15th amendment because it excluded women. and so she had really campaigned against the principles that they dedicated their lives to, which was really the basic principles of reconstruction. so she was not well received at all. >> on twitter. >> she was -- she was absolutely passionate about women's education and encouraged young women to go to college, which was in fact a radical thing to say during her time in the white house. and she saw testimony prance to

a certain extent as a way to help women. but if you're asking in the way about women's wages, where women worked, you know, women's right to join a union, women's right to vote which were the major political issues at that time, she did not associate with that. >> we've got lots of different questions about that college degree. and i'm going to ask a couple of them all at once. i'm not sure if they had majors back then but what did lucy study in college and what was specifically applicable to her career? others want to know where did she go to school. >> she went to wes lan's female college in cincinnati, ohio and got a degree in liberal arts. she studied rhetoric, composition, english all the standard things. i don't think she studied political science.

so -- but all of those applicable to what she ended up seeing as first lady. she had to deliver speeches which was probably good preparation for later on in life. >> on facebook very anxious to know whether or not more or less she rubbed her college degree in the faces of member of congress or other serving elites while in the white house. >> no. lucy was a good politician. she knew how to carry on a conversation without being air dite. so no i would say she did not give offense. >> next scott from tennessee. caller: i don't have a question. i just want to say that lucy and rutherford, they're just great role models. i've enjoyed studying them. caller: i don't have a i just think they were really moral people.

i really admire them a lot. >> thanks. it seems like lucy might have been more popular than rutherford. was that true? >> well, -- >> there was a comment made that when they traveled, that rutherford insisted on lucy going along with him so that people wouldn't say bad things about him. so perhaps she was more popular than he was. >> our next call. julie in venezuela. caller: it's been great. we're learning so much american susan swain: do you have a question about this first lady? julie: yes. were the hayeses the first power couple in washington? susan swain: were the hayeses the first power couple in washington? allida black: no.

no, i would say that the first power couple in washington were john and abigail adams, but the first power couple in the presidency were martha and george. susan swain: we'll go to another call. allida black: it's a good question, though. susan swain: and delighted to have people watching in venezuela tonight. lindsay is in kingston pennsylvania. what's your question? lindsay: hi, i don't have a question, either. i thought it might be fun for your viewers to know that i'm a distant relative of rutherford birchard hayes on my father's side of the family. my maiden middle name was birchard, much to my dismay, because nobody understood it but i'm proud to have it as part of my heritage now. and when i was in high school, i did some research on rutherford hayes, and i found out that he had quite the sense of humor and even ended up riding a bicycle through the white house.

and i thought your viewers might get a kick out of knowing that. thank you. susan swain: thanks so much. did he have a sense of humor? thomas culbertson: he did. it was a bit understated, but he had the habit of cutting up apples at the dinner table and tossing the pieces at people at the table, some of whom would not deign to catch them, but he also could tell a joke, but not often. susan swain: well, it was serious times. thomas culbertson: it was. susan swain: the hayeses -- lucy hayes gave birth to eight children, five of whom lived to adulthood. so are there lots of hayes descendants in the country today? thomas culbertson: we have more than 100 hayes descendants in our databases at the hayes center. we have four members of the family on our board of directors at the hayes center. and we had a reunion a couple of years ago that a number of descendants came to. susan swain: and on the topic which you mentioned earlier of entertaining in the white house, it was a dry white house, but they used it a lot to entertain and to advance the president's programs.

would you talk about that? allida black: well, sure. i mean, the thing that i always thought was very interesting about this was how lucy hayes would hate state dinners, but pull them off. i mean, she really would just -- would be very vocal with people that are around her, but -- about that. but i think that she was able to -- with an ease and a grace and an ability to put people at ease really help open the -- you know, the white house up to people in a way that would be, let's say, very different from mary todd, who would be charming, but had an edge to her. and lucy was just kind and was able to talk at the level of the person that was with them. would you add anything to that? thomas culbertson: she was particularly good with old people and children. and that came through to everyone. allida black: yeah.

susan swain: we are about to return to spiegel grove. michael on twitter asks, is it true that spiegel grove is named using the german word for mirror because of the reflection from the lake? thomas culbertson: yes, it's -- well, actually, it's -- the ground there is clay. water doesn't percolate in very easily, and so water sits on the ground. it creates mirrors, and it comes from the german word for mirror. susan swain: what time in their life together did they move into the place? thomas culbertson: they moved in to spiegel grove in 1873, when they inherited the home from rutherford -- rutherford's uncle, sardis birchard, who was his surrogate father, who was a lifelong bachelor, fortunately for rutherford, and they improved the house twice. they added to it in 1880, when they came back after the presidency, and in 1889, the year that lucy died. susan swain: and how many square feet is it today? thomas culbertson: it was about 16,000 square feet.

it's a huge house, 11 bedrooms and 7 bathrooms. susan swain: and how much of that's open to the public today? thomas culbertson: the entire house is open to the public. we just spent over $1.5 million bringing the first floor of the home back to what it looked like during their time using vintage photographs and recreating a lot of the carpets and wallpapers and furnishings. susan swain: and you're looking at some of the results of that work right now on your screen. we're going to return to spiegel grove and learn more. you've been hearing allusions to lucy hayes' choice of this china for the white house. we're going to show it to you next. you decide, do you like it? let's take a look. christie weininger: here at the hayes presidential center, we are very lucky to have a number of items that belonged to rutherford and lucy hayes when they were at the white house. one of our more controversial collections is the white house china. and it's controversial -- it was controversial at the time, it remains controversial to this day -- because of the pattern of the china. lucy was an outdoorsy person.

she loved nature. and when it was time for her to choose what the white house official china pattern was going to be, she wanted to do something with ferns. theodore davis had been chosen as the artist that was going to work with lucy to create the china, and they met out in the conservatory at the white house and were going through, looking at ferns, trying to decide what would make a good pattern, and as the two of them talked, davis suggested creating scenes that would highlight the flora and fauna of the united states. and lucy thought that was wonderful. so that's what they did. you can see some of the patterns are quite beautiful, but some of them are a little more interesting. we have lobsters. we have bleeding fish. we have ducks. people at the time did not feel like this was appropriate formal china. even some of the journalists of the day wrote scathing articles about this china. one journalist said that the art was absurd. another article was written that said, who's going to want to be eating this lovely meal and

start to finish up their meat and see a duck or a giant frog at the bottom of their plate? people at the time did -- just thought that this was not appropriate china to have at a presidential dinner, but lucy felt like this was a way to educate visiting dignitaries from foreign countries who maybe weren't familiar with the flora and fauna of the united states that this would be a way to show them what nature in the united states was like. susan swain: and from -- well, what do you think of the china? thomas culbertson: well, i actually like the china. and they made many other copies of each of the items for sale to the general public, because limoges -- or the haviland & company in limoges, france, said they were losing their shirt on the whole project and wanted to make some revenue, so they produced -- and that's what you see sitting on the sideboard there. susan swain: and how scathing were the press reviews? allida black: scathing. i mean, you could see that -- i think the most polite language was absurd. i mean, i saw some stuff that said grotesque, so -- undignified.

so the press really thought it was just unfitting for the white house. susan swain: and did she continue to use it, despite the criticism? allida black: yes. thomas culbertson: well, it wasn't delivered until just months before they left the white house, so jacqueline kennedy used the soup plates for cigarette ashes and so did richard nixon. but gerald ford apparently loved the set and would use it to serve congressional breakfasts. susan swain: so we want to spend a little bit of time talking about the hayes family and their life in the white house, but before we get to the white house life, let's talk a little bit about how they got together in the first place and also that important formative years -- you've mentioned it, allida black, of the civil war. how did the hayeses meet? thomas culbertson: well, the hayeses first met when lucy was only 15 and rutherford was 24. they met at the sulfur springs at the ohio wesleyan university in delaware, ohio.

at that point, president hayes' mother knew about lucy and thought that they would be a good match, and rutherford rightly thought that she was a bit too young at that point. so in 1850, when rutherford moved to cincinnati to start his law practice down there, he met lucy again when she was about to graduate from the wesleyan female college, and that's when they struck up their relationship. and about a year-and-a-half later, they were married in cincinnati. susan swain: now, he was 40 years old at the time that the civil war broke out, and he could have sat out the civil war. -----allida black: absolutely. -- susan swain: so why -- what was the decision by the family for him to volunteer? allida black: well, he immediately wanted to volunteer and signed up for a three-year stint, and she was very supportive of him. i mean, it was never really a

serious discussion about him not going. so it was always a question of going to preserve the union, and also because lucy had such strong abolition feelings -- i mean, she was additionally supportive of the union. susan swain: so hayes was -- what was his history in the civil war? how was he seen as a leader? thomas culbertson: well, hayes was fortunate that he spent most of the civil war in west virginia trying to keep the confederates from moving from theater to theater. whenever he did get out of there, he was wounded five times, once badly, almost lost his left arm. he was a -- william mckinley was also in the same unit, wrote later that he turned into a tiger when he was on the battlefield, that he went from being this mild-mannered attorney to being a warrior. susan swain: and his exploits had to become known, because his political career was launched while he was still in service. thomas culbertson: right. he was nominated to run for congress from his district in cincinnati. and he famously said that he would not campaign.

he said a man who was fit for battle who would leave his post should be scalped, and that was used on campaign posters then when he ran for president in 1876. susan swain: there is one very dramatic story that i'd like to have either of you to tell which is, of his wounding, lucy was back in ohio and he telegraphs for her, "i'm wounded. come to me." what happened? thomas culbertson: well, it was pretty much a comedy of errors. a soldier was given money to go send telegrams to his wife, to his brother-in-law, and to his uncle. he turned out to only have money enough for two telegrams, and he sent them to the men, and not to his wife. so she found out about it with the second telegram that said, "i won't lose my arm." so they had arranged in advance to meet at the kirkwood house here in washington, d.c., in case of wounding. she hopped on a train with her brother-in-law, came to

washington, d.c., went to the patent office, and all kinds of places to try to find her husband. she ran into some men from the 23rd ohio who said, oh, he's back out in middletown maryland, at the scene of the battle of south mountain, and she went, and her brother, joe who had fixed his arm, came to pick them up, took them to see rutherford, and she spent two weeks with him. and that's -- that painting that you saw earlier in the segment was depicting her ministry to the troops there at the battlefield. allida black: and one of the -- one of the interesting stories about her train ride out there is the train is so crowded she's got to stand up all the way. and when she finally sits down she's sitting next to this woman who's just distraught and turns to her and says that she's trying to see her husband who's in the hospital before her husband dies because he's lost both his legs.

and she's just praying that she can get there to see him before he dies. so just imagine what she's feeling. susan swain: we're going to return to spiegel grove in just a second, but, first, katherine in rockville, maryland, you're on the air. katherine: yeah, hi. i was wondering what lucy's religion was and how religious was she? susan swain: thanks very much. an important question, because it colored a lot of the way they lived in the white house. thomas culbertson: right. lucy was a very devout methodist. her grandfather, who serves as her father, because her own father had died when she was 2 years old, was a devout methodist, and that's where her temperance leanings came from, as well as her abolition sentiments, too, so a very devout methodist. susan swain: in this video from spiegel grove, the hayes family home, we learn more about lucy hayes as a wife and mother. let's watch. christie weininger: lucy was very dedicated to her family. her children were extremely

important to her. she and her husband had eight children. five of them lived to adulthood. and we know from diaries and letters that this was kind of their gathering space. so not only is this their bedroom, but this is where they spent a lot of family time together. this room is also very important to lucy as a mother because this is where her eighth child was born, right here in this bed manning force hayes. he was the only one of the eight hayes children to be born here at spiegel grove. tragically, he was never a very healthy child, and when he was about 18 months old, he actually contracted dysentery, and so he passed away, which was something that was very hard on the family. and this is lucy's sewing machine, and this is what she took with her when she was encamped with her husband, rutherford, during the civil war. he was an officer in the civil war, and it was very important to her that she be with him as often as was practical. so when he was in winter camp and that kind of thing, when he wasn't actually out on campaign

when he was in western virginia, she would travel with him. and she wrote in diaries and letters how important it was for her to be with him. she often wrote that she was very concerned about the welfare of the men that were in his regiment. so she took this with her, and she would actually do some sewing. she would mend some uniforms. lucy was a very good seamstress. not only did she repair soldiers' uniforms, but actually when she was married in 1852 she made her own wedding dress a very beautiful, very elegant dress, so this is something that would have been very important to her. one of the things that's kind of interesting that we know occurred in this space, this is where they had family christmases, and they would write about these in the diary entries. they would have breakfast, and then they would come in here and they would open the presents. the whole family would gather in here. they have very simple presents not a lot of presents. but this is the space where they would do that, so a lot of traditions, a lot of important family traditions happened in here, as well as kind of

day-to-day activities with the family. this is a watercolor painting of the president and lucy's bedroom at the white house. and you can see there's some very vibrant blue colors in here. here in their bedroom at spiegel grove, that same color scheme is reflected in here, so we know that lucy liked the color blue. we know that, as evidenced by this painting here, and also when we were reupholstering some of the furniture in here to try and take it back to the original, what it had originally looked like, we found color swatches or swatches of the original fabric embedded within these pieces of furniture. so this is the bedroom of rutherford and lucy's only daughter. her name was fannie. she was named after the president's much beloved sister. this is a painting of fannie with her father. she was one of -- the only daughter. she was the president and lucy's only daughter. and you can imagine a little girl growing up in a house like this, with a lot of brothers. even though her parents claim

that she was not the favorite, she had this furniture especially made for her. she had one of the bigger bedrooms. so she certainly was the darling to her mother and her father. susan swain: and from that, i want to call up on screen a picture that we found, a photograph we found that's a very compelling image of lucy hayes. let's show it to you right now. where was this picture taken tom culbertson? thomas culbertson: the picture was taken in the conservatory of the white house. and it shows lucy with her daughter, fannie, her son, scott, and the daughter of the theodore r. davis, who was the man who designed the white house china. lucy loved the 12 conservatories that are in the white house or were in the white house. every morning, she would make the rounds in there. she would send flowers off to the various hospitals in washington, d.c. she was a very compassionate person, in fact, one of the -- or a number of the flowers she

sent were to peggy eaton, that -- eaton that we've heard about on previous occasions, that when she died, lucy sent flowers off to her funeral. susan swain: from the petticoat affair in the jackson administration. thomas culbertson: yep, uh-huh. susan swain: bob is watching us in baltimore, maryland. hi, bob. your question? bob: hi, i'm enjoying the program as always. my question involves from what i understand was a key intellectual purpose to both mrs. hayes and her husband, and that was specifically the collection of books. she not only enjoyed reading books, but also collecting them, which leads me to my question. did she have any particular type of book or genre that she preferred? susan swain: tom? thomas culbertson: the hayeses collected over 12,000 books, all of which are at the rutherford hayes library in fremont, ohio. and she preferred light fiction. she liked harriet beecher stowe, not necessarily "uncle tom's cabin." she liked to read to the children.

rutherford's taste went more to shakespeare and the heavier drama, but william dean howells was a relative by marriage, so they would sit around and read to each other from the latest howells book or dickens. susan swain: while we're talking about life in the white house, an interesting juxtaposition about the hayeses' interests. they were interested in the white house as a building. they were antiquarians who preserved and even found some of their predecessors' furniture but they were also interested in technology. allida black: yes. susan swain: so they brought the typewriter. they put plumbing in the white house. what else did they do to the building? allida black: well, i'm not really sure. tom, do you know that? thomas culbertson: well, they expanded the conservatories for one thing. but one problem they had was that congress would not appropriate money to fix it up. the carpets had holes in them, so she strategically placed the furniture. she had the curtains reversed so that the worn bottoms were put up toward the top. she went up in the attics and found pieces of furniture.

got a few things reupholstered even went out and bought some pieces. so once they finally did get money, she put first in the new carpets in the east room and reupholstered pieces and added one more conservatory. susan swain: well, that is preserving the white house history and as it is. the technology is fascinating to me. alexander graham bell comes and brings the telephone. they install telephones in the white house. thomas culbertson: they had the first telephone in washington, d.c., but it only went to the treasury department building. she was so thrilled by it that she had a group of singers in and had them sing loudly into the phone, and one -- one base singer hit a particular note, he exploded a piece within the receiver of the phone. the other thing was, thomas edison also visited the white house. he arrived at 11 o'clock at night, because congress had kept

him there too long demonstrating the machine. so rutherford was so impressed by it that he got the ladies up at midnight, took them an hour to get dressed again, and they stayed up until 3 o'clock in the

for trying to spend the nation possible any in a way that really should be go towards fighting the war. but lucy gives us what lucy

gives us -- what lucy gives us is a graceful transition. the country really understand her strong abolition feeling. what do you think, tom? thomas culbertson: yeah, and i think that she tried to get rid of a lot of the formality -- allida black: absolutely. thomas culbertson: -- and to invite people to come in off the street who maybe would have not felt like they could come in during previous administrations. allida black: i mean, she really did try to make it the people's house. susan swain: on that note,

sheldon cooper asks, "it seems like the last four or five first ladies that we've learned about found the white house in great disrepair, always asking for appropriations from congress or spending their own money. did things just wear out more quickly back then? " he asked. thomas culbertson: well, yes. people also stole things that -- they claimed that there was a gentleman who would go around after each of the public receptions with a bucketful of pieces of chandeliers to replace the prisms when they were stolen. susan swain: they cut tassels off of curtains. thomas culbertson: yes, and took pieces of carpet and all sorts of things. americans were known for taking things. susan swain: try that today, huh? thomas culbertson: yeah. susan swain: find yourself arrested, i think, for trying something like that. allida black: and also, things get dirty. they wear out, you know? susan swain: because a lot -- people were constantly coming through. allida black: there's traffic all the way through it. you know, you can get clean, but you can't get perfectly spotless. thomas culbertson: well, the streets of washington, d.c., were mud at that point. allida black: they were -- they were filthy. thomas culbertson: and if you get 3,000 people coming in to a public reception on an afternoon, you'd track a lot of

mud in. susan swain: by the way, we have a terrific website. we've been working with the white house historical association on this entire series, and with their help, we've created a great website for this. you can find it at cspan.org. there's a first ladies link, easily accessible. all of the progress we've done so far are there, and every week we have a special feature about each first lady. this one is a video of the 25th anniversary of the hayeses' -- which we just heard, that they celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary. and you'll see the cameo that was created for that event. so find our website and you'll learn more about the history of the first ladies. well, we're going to return. we've been talking a bit about her approach to her job, her image and the like. we're going to return to spiegel grove museum and learn more about her white house dresses. christie weininger: style and image was a very important part of being first lady. and whether they liked it or not, people were discussing the way first ladies dressed and what they wore. here we have a number of lucy's gowns that she wore, this ruby-colored velvet gown is what

she wore for her official white house portrait. this gown is called ashes of roses, and she actually wore this for her eldest son, birchard's, wedding. this is another gown that she wore to a wedding. this was the wedding of her niece, which actually took place in the white house. lucy actually had kind of her own style. journalists at the time, when she came to washington, said oh, she'll change her hair and she'll kind of upgrade her dress and her appearance. well, she took a fashion from fremont to the white house that she was very comfortable with. christie weininger: that's not to say she wasn't an elegant dresser. she was. this blue velvet gown is a perfect example of that. it's a lovely gown, has lots of fine details to it, but it's not ostentatious. it is a little conservative. christie weininger: this gown here is what she wore to a new years reception, which took place at the white house.

and this gown is the one that probably has the most sentimental value to lucy. she sewed it herself. it's her own wedding gown that she wore for her marriage to rutherford. susan swain: allida black, lenore little on facebook has -- i have a question about lucy's personal style. was her hair parted in the middle the style of the day? i see her wearing this hairdo throughout her life. did her part widen over time? did she have a servant who helped with her coiffeur? her pictures show her to be a very lovely first lady with beautiful gowns. thank you for answering this. now, we've already met first ladies who understood the power of influence of fashion. was lucy hayes one of those? allida black: well, she certainly didn't change her hairstyle when she was there. i mean, it was -- it was what she wore her entire life. i think that she was very comfortable with who she was. she certainly understood how to carry herself well. i think her clothes reflected not the daringness of the time

but the dignity of her position, not -- in a way that made her seem colorful and vibrant without being provocative. susan swain: what do you think tom? thomas culbertson: well, she saw herself as a mother of eight -- allida black: absolutely. thomas culbertson: -- who should not be an exhibitionist and that the tone was fairly conservative and something wholesome. susan swain: caitlin is watching us in springfield, missouri. caitlin's on. caitlin: hi. susan swain: good evening. question? caitlin: yeah. how did lucy cope with losing several children at such a young age? susan swain: thanks very much. thomas culbertson: well, losing children was sort of a normal type of thing back then. the saddest story was the loss of the first of their children. lucy and the children had gone to visit rutherford in the field of battle in west virginia, and within a couple of days, their son died.

they gave his body to a soldier to take back to cincinnati for burial and the rest of the family remained in camp. rutherford wrote that he never really became attached to the child, but it was really hard on lucy. but she did grieve, but she didn't have a whole lot of time to grieve, because she had to take care of the other children and move on. susan swain: next is a call from bill, who's in fostoria, ohio. hi, bill. bill: hi, hi. thanks for taking my call. i've been to spiegel grove many, many times. how many descendants does president hayes have living right now? i got to meet a lot of them several years ago when they were at a gathering in spiegel grove. thank you. susan swain: thanks so much. he wasn't listening earlier, i think, when -- thomas culbertson: well, we have more than 100 in our database, so --

susan swain: are any of them in politics? thomas culbertson: there aren't any at the national level. there is a mayor in california republican and a woman. susan swain: and we've been looking at quotes from lucy, but let's show you a quote from rutherford hayes, the president, about lucy, who said of her, "i don't know how much influence mrs. hayes has with congress but she has great influence with me." what was her approach like? some of the first ladies actually would sit in the congressional gallery, listen to the debates, would try specifically to address individual members of congress that could help advance the president's plan. was she one of these first ladies? thomas culbertson: no, lucy stayed out of politics. in fact, rutherford put out a statement that no one from his immediate family would have a position or paid position in the government to try to keep her family members, mainly, from applying for jobs.

and at different times, lucy would write to her son, webb who was sort of a confidential secretary to his father, saying, could you try to influence your father on appointments? so lucy felt that she was getting no place with rutherford. susan swain: but he did, in fact, if not appointing relatives, was a president who appointed african-americans to posts. can you tell us about that? thomas culbertson: rutherford hayes did appoint frederick douglass as the martial of the city of washington, d.c. he was very aware that it was a symbolic gesture on his part. he also had african-americans appointed to a number of positions in the south, mainly. the hayeses were also the first to have a black opera singer perform for them in the white house, madame celica, and had some other black performers on their saturday performances in

the white house. susan swain: many people are interested in her causes. we talked about the fact that she helped with the -- the funds to build -- finish the washington monument. you mentioned earlier her interest in the orphans of the civil war. what other causes was she involved in? allida black: well, she was very interested in mental health, as well, i mean, in terms of the sanitation and the treatment that we today would consider to be shell-shocked soldiers have. she would care a lot about veterans' pensions when they -- you know, when they got their pensions especially, if they were disabled and -- i mean, there are wonderful records of when she would care for people who were -- this is before she was really a first lady, but when she would still be in ohio

and there would be wounded soldiers who hadn't been paid, and she would really help set up a system to expedite the on-time delivery of their paychecks. so she was interested in orphans, in veterans' affairs in the education of the deaf and in mental health. susan swain: and also she was very involved with the indigent population in washington, d.c.? thomas culbertson: yes, and she did that without making a big fanfare about it. she would give money to some of the employees of the white house to go out and give it to the poor. but another one of her causes was the education of indians and of blacks. she went down to virginia to the hampton institute and saw blacks and indians being educated there. she paid for a scholarship for a woman who would be the wife of

-- not frederick douglass -- oh, i'm having a mind thing here. but -- and then the carlisle indian school was founded during the hayes administration, and she had a bit to do with the -- with that. susan swain: rutherford hayes, as we learned, was -- announced from the beginning he was going to be a one-term president. it was constant tussles with congress during his time in congress. here are just some of the key events during his administration. as allida black told us, very importantly, the end of reconstruction. in 1878, the bland-allison act which calls for the resumption of silver coinage. hayes vetoed it, and congress passed the measure over his veto. in 1879, he vetoed the army appropriation bills. after three versions, hayes finally accepted it, and a rider is attached to the original bill that would repeal the force acts. and finally, in 1880, a

u.s.-china treaty granting trading privilege restricting immigration and banning the opium trade. how does history view the hayes administration? thomas culbertson: well, i think that what hayes managed to do was to at least not have the scandals that you had during the grant administration. he managed to retrieve some of the powers to the presidency that had been lost during the johnson and the grant administrations. he appointed his own cabinet. he made a number of other controversial appointments without congress's blessing. he was -- he brought the country together -- when they did their traveling throughout the country, the hayeses wanted to include the south and the west and new england. at the time, he felt that the nomination of james garfield and garfield's election was a sign that he could have been elected had he chosen to run for a second term in office, so he

felt that the corner had been turned and the republican party was now swinging back. susan swain: he was the -- they were the most traveled president to date. is that right? the first couple? thomas culbertson: the hayeses traveled thousands of miles, almost always together. they were the first to go to the west coast during their term in office. susan swain: and was there extensive press coverage of their travels? allida black: yes, there was. but can i just go back to, to just say two other things about -- about the hayes administration that viewers might be interested in especially those that follow the machinations of the senate? i mean, one of the things that hayes was really very successful in doing was limiting the number of riders that could be attached to legislation to change the intent of legislation.

and the second thing that he did was really begin in an incremental way to really put in a civil service system, to really appoint -- where you assessed people's qualifications before you gave them the job. susan swain: we've talked around the periphery. presidentialponderings, they write on twitter, "with their support of black people post-slavery, the hayeses seemed like progressive diversity advocates of their era." well, if you agree with that or not, but could you give us a sense of what was happening to black americans in the country in these years, as reconstruction winds to an end? allida black: yeah, absolutely. well, i think that -- the hayeses really were progressives, but they were -- they were ineffectual in really helping the south adhere to the law. and i say this as someone who was born and raised in memphis tennessee. i mean, hayes pulled the last troops out after securing verbal commitments and written commitments from the southern states that they would adhere to the civil rights that the 14th and the 15th amendments guaranteed african-americans.

and when hayes pulls those troops out, the south -- equality in the south implodes. you have racial violence escalating. the ku klux klan skyrockets. you have the introductions of the mississippi codes, which really begin in 1877 and are crystallized in 1901, that really deprive blacks of being able to own property, restricts voting rights, for example, in mississippi. and i think it's in 1871, 96 percent of african-american men can vote in the state of mississippi. when hayes ends reconstruction 10 years later, less than 0.5 percent of african-american men can vote because of the violence and the intimidation, the grandfathers clause, the poll tax, and the literacy test.

so it's really two separate nations where african-americans emboldened by frederick douglass in the north begin to really organize and begin to secure their rights, while the south really has theirs stripped away. susan swain: mike is watching us in honolulu. you're on. hey, mike. my fault, i pushed the button. there you are, mike. go ahead. mike: can you hear me? susan swain: yes, i can, thanks. mike: it is 4:10 here, hawaii standard time. and i am a direct relative to my grandmother, of course. her name is jessie hayes. and she was born about 1870 in the lower midwest, and probably by blood, long removed. but i looked at this beautiful lucy, sitting erect in the chair, looking at the camera

with big eyes and her beautiful children looking at the camera. i was so impressed. and, obviously, president hayes really, really scored when this woman married him. and she's an educated woman. of course, at the time, i presume it's kind of controversial having a first lady with a degree, let alone an abolitionist and let alone a quiet woman who loved her children and especially -- especially loved her husband whether he was president or mayor or whatever. susan swain: thank you, mike. a nice summary of lucy hayes for us, all the way from honolulu today. they said they were going to stay one term, but by the time it was time to leave, how did the hayeses feel about leaving the white house? thomas culbertson: well, they were relieved to be leaving, but they also said it was the best

time of their lives to that point. but they felt like they didn't want to wear out their welcome. they had managed to do some of the things that they wanted to do, but they were happy to hand it off to the garfields and let them sit in the hot seat for a while. susan swain: we're going to return to spiegel grove for another video, and this is about the post-white house years. christie weininger: these are a few of the tokens that the hayeses received in appreciation for their stance on temperance. lucy was known for not serving alcohol in the white house, and some of the temperance groups that existed in the united states at that time really admired her for taking that kind of stand. and so as she and rutherford were leaving the white house there was a group of women, the woman's christian working association of -- belonged to a presbyterian church in ottawa, illinois. they wanted to give her a gift

to thank her for making that kind of a stand. and so what they did is they sent a number of pages out among notable people in illinois and asked them to sign this paper for mrs. hayes. and when all the papers were returned, they bound them into these beautiful volumes that we have here. there are actually six of these. we have a couple of very interesting signatures in here. one is from sarah polk, and she signed it "mrs. james polk of polk place, nashville, davidson county, tennessee." and then we also have another autograph that is kind of interesting, and it was written by samuel clemens, also known as mark twain. and what he wrote is that, "total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extreme. in my passion for it, i even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself." now, that does sound like something mark twain would say. in addition to these beautifully

bound autograph books, the women's group also had these lovely portieres made for lucy. they're exquisitely and intricately embroidered. they're very large. basically, portieres were door curtains, and they hung right here in the house in this doorway, and they divided this room, the library parlor, from the president's study. susan swain: tom culbertson, what were their post-white house years like? thomas culbertson: well, they weren't as long as they really wanted them to be, but they really enjoyed having their family back together. they only had one child married at this point, so they still had two teenagers at home with them, one son off at college and the other was working in cleveland. they hoped to have grandchildren coming in at any point. they entertained people. but the hayeses kept going with their causes. rutherford hayes was a trustee of the ohio state university. lucy was involved with the

women's home missionary society, the only organization that she ever took a leadership role with. and -- susan swain: what did she do for them? thomas culbertson: she was the president of the organization. she would go kicking and screaming to the annual meeting and make a short address each year. it was the -- what the women's home missionary society was supposed to do was improve the home life for the poor, educate women on how to raise a family basically, particularly blacks indians, poor people of the south. there were 44,000 members of the organization with 42 missions throughout the united states. susan swain: but she did come into criticism for comments that she made during these years. what were they? thomas culbertson: she made a comment that there were more immigrants coming in from the heathen nations -- as she put it -- the eastern european countries, and she thought in

those countries that they did not respect women and that the chore of trying to assimilate them into the united states would be tougher, but they would attempt to do so, so she got quite a bit of criticism over that particular speech in 1887. susan swain: so it shows us that the press's continued interest in first couples, even after they leave the white house, is this a new phenomenon? allida black: no. i mean, there were -- i mean the press certainly hounded mary todd, for example, you know, sent all these salacious rumors about ouija boards and, you know, insane tantrums and hallucinations and institutions. i think that the hayeses showed -- you know, brought america back in a way after the war. i mean, they're relatively scandal-free when they leave the white house. their devotion to each other is palpable. you know, they don't change when

they're there; they don't change when they leave. and so the country continues to be interested in them and grateful, i think. thomas culbertson: yes. susan swain: why was she giving speeches about immigration? what was happening to the country in terms of immigration? allida black: well, europe is imploding in economic crises and early -- well, the second wave of revolutions. and so you have new immigrants who are coming into the united states, who are no longer english-speaking and irish catholic. you know, they're disproportionately from central europe or russian jews, and so -- and from southern italy. so you have people of different races, different education levels, different religions, and different skills that scare americans. and, you know, it's a fear that teddy roosevelt will very much express when he assumes the presidency. susan swain: next is jennifer watching us in granger, indiana. hi, jennifer.

jennifer: hi, i enjoyed this series so very much. i did just catch that -- i heard the one son was college-educated. were all the children college-educated? and what did they end up doing with their lives, the other ones i did not hear about? thank you. susan swain: thank you. thomas culbertson: well, all four of the boys were college -- went to college. they weren't all graduates. their daughter fannie did not go to college, which is rather strange, considering the background of the parents. their oldest son, birchard, was an attorney in toledo. their second son, webb, was a founder of union carbide and became quite wealthy. he's the gentleman who started the rutherford hayes presidential center, which opened in 1916. their third son, rutherford, became a real estate developer in north carolina and in florida.

and their fourth son, scott, worked for general electric out of -- first, cincinnati, and then out of schenectady, new york. susan swain: kathy robinson wants to know, did the hayeses build additions to spiegel grove after returning from the white house? and i have another tweet, which i can't call up very quickly but someone asked, did the hayeses have any pets? and the answer is, boy, did they, huh? thomas culbertson: yes, they did. well, they did add to the house. in 1880, they added three bedrooms, a large drawing room and a library, and then in 1889, unfortunately, lucy never saw the back addition to the home, which had four more bedrooms and a large dining room. they had pets. they had -- in the white house they had a mockingbird, a goat couple of dogs. they had the first siamese cat in the united states. it was given to them by the ambassador from siam, as they called it at that point, and that was also the name of the cat. unfortunately, it died while they were on a trip out west and was buried there at the white

house. we have many pictures of the hayeses with their dogs, once they got to spiegel grove. she also had cows, pigeons ducks. you name it, she had it. susan swain: just to follow up on your comments about healing telhurth purchase on facebook, was she as concerned about veterans from the south as she was for veterans of the north? allida black: yes, but in a different way. she wanted to make sure that -- she looked at that as a way to reconcile, not as a way to really instill mercy on southerners. i mean, what she really wanted veterans to be -- were to be -- to have their wounds healed, their pensions on time, and that the country get over the war and advance the cause of negro rights. susan swain: this is our final visit in this program to spiegel

grove, and it talks about lucy hayes' final years there. let's watch. christie weininger: lucy was such a nurturing person, and not only did she care about children and less fortunate members of society, but she also loved animals and loved being outside. so when she returned here from the white house, it wasn't very long before she had a whole menagerie of animals here at spiegel grove. she had goats, cows, chickens, cats, dogs. she loved to have dogs near her. and she loved pigeons so much, interestingly enough, that she actually had holes drilled in to the risers between some of the steps here, so that the pigeons would have places to roost. in fact, some of the last pictures that we have of her before she passed away, she's out here in the yard, feeding the pigeons, wearing one of rutherford's old beat-up hats. and actually, she loved animals so much and she loved to go outside and do her chores that when people would come to visit her, she would take them right on out to the chicken coop with

her to feed the chickens. so this was something that was very much a part of her and was very important to her. when rutherford and lucy returned to spiegel grove from the white house, this space still was very important to them. it was kind of the nucleus of the household. this is where the family spent their informal time. but now they're a little older. they've got some grandchildren, which they love it when returned to spiegel grove from the white house, this space still was very important to grandchildren visit them here at spiegel grove, and actually one of lucy's favorite items that was in this room is an advertisement that features a very happy, cherubic-looking baby, and it so reminded her of her eldest grandchild that she hung that picture in here right by her bed. this is also the room where lucy's story ends. she was sitting in one of the chairs here in this room. she was working on some needlepoint. she was watching her younger children play tennis outside the windows here. and she suffered a massive stroke, and she kind of slumped over in her chair.

the family rushed in, carried spiegel grove, and actually one her to the bed here, and this is where she passed away. she was buried in a cemetery here in fremont near spiegel grove. eventually, her children had her and rutherford reinterred here and they are now buried right here on the grounds of spiegel grove. susan swain: tom culbertson, how old was she when she passed away? thomas culbertson: lucy was 57 when she died. she had her funeral there in spiegel grove. she was laid out in the front hallway, and thousands of people came through. one of the great stories of her funeral was as the procession went back behind the home and past the fenced-in area where the cows were assembled, they lined up like soldiers, they said, and gave her a salute as she left. susan swain: for her love of animals. i want to go back to that photograph that we just saw in the video of lucy hayes in her post-white house years with the pigeons. thomas culbertson: yes, they had those holes drilled in the steps right outside their bedroom,

which must have been pretty annoying, or perhaps they got up early in the day, but she fed them daily and went out and milked the cows, gathered the eggs, churned the butter. susan swain: did the president share her love of animals or did he tolerate lucy's love of them? thomas culbertson: rutherford did not love as much, but he was an avid horseman, as was she. susan swain: and how long did he live after her death? thomas culbertson: rutherford lived three more years beyond her death, and -- susan swain: and how did he spend that time? thomas culbertson: he was still active with the ohio state university, with prison reform education of blacks and indians. he attended lots of conferences. did a little bit of traveling, finally got out of the united states, visited bermuda, but other than that, only in the united states. susan swain: did he stay active with the republican party? thomas culbertson: he -- well, he stayed out of politics. he just felt that past presidents should really stay out of active politics, though he did rejoice when republicans were elected and wasn't so pleased when democrats got

elected. susan swain: damian is watching us in new york city. you're on, damian. damian: first of all, this is a very fascinating show. i've never known so much about rb hayes, and certainly his wife, lucy. thank you for this tremendous, tremendous show about both of them. susan swain: thank you, sir. damian: i must say, you know, rb hayes was a unique guy. i mean, the idea that he would only have one term is -- and swear to that was amazing. but most importantly, his wife was so influential, given her college credentials and the fact that, you know, during rb hayes', you know, presidential incumbency, he was the first president to allow women to testify in front of the supreme court. do you believe that his wife had much to do with that? and do you believe that that

helped craft his decision-making around policy? thank you very much for the show. thank you. susan swain: allida black? allida black: sure. i don't think that had anything to do with women testifying before the court. what about you? thomas culbertson: well, president hayes did sign the legislation that allowed women to practice before the supreme court, but it just so happened that the bill was placed in front of him and he couldn't figure out a way to not sign it. allida black: to go around it, yeah. thomas culbertson: so -- yeah, i mean, that's pretty much it. susan swain: anything more for that caller, though, on the influence, again, that she might have had on his thinking? thomas culbertson: i don't think there was -- there was much. i mean, they -- they agreed on most things, but she knew better than to try to lobby him hard on anything. allida black: and i think if the influence occurred, it occurred much earlier when they were beginning -- when he was practicing law in ohio. and she helped change his

assessment of abolitionists who he thought were extremists. susan swain: tony pistilli wants to go all the way back to our first discussion about the hayes-tilden election. don't you know if you know the answer to this, but he asks on facebook, was there some kind of deal forged in the senate because of the closeness of the tilden-hayes election, that the senate and, most importantly the southern senators would approve of hayes' election if he agreed to end reconstruction? allida black: yes. the deal was, is that hayes would remove the last of the southern troops -- i mean, the last of the union troops in the south, which were in new orleans and in columbia, to really pull the last of the army out of the south. hayes did do that, but he only did that after he extracted promises from both communities that they would, in fact respect the 15th amendment which they, of course, did not. susan swain: dan watching in san diego, you're on. dan: yes, back to the tilden election, quick question. how supportive, obviously, she was, but how much did the

controversy over the election with him getting the nickname "rutherfraud" really affect her as far as out in the public? did she have any comments in public regarding that? thomas culbertson: she made no comments in public. i'm sure she was disturbed by it, but she and rutherford both felt that he would have been legitimately elected had blacks been able to vote in the numbers they had in the previous elections. susan swain: we are getting close to the end of the program. i want to show you allida black's work. she spent many years on this. this is produced by the white house historical association. it is a collection of biographies of all the first ladies. we are offering this at cost as a way for you to learn more about the biographies of the first ladies, so if you're interested, go to that website that i mentioned before and you can find out how to make it part of your personal book collection. how did you get interested in this subject? allida black: well, i came into it through eleanor roosevelt. and then i started going backwards and forwards to figure out the extent to which women

were involved in policy in their husband's administration. and then i was lucky enough to be asked by the white house historical association to redo the book, and it's been a labor of love since 1996. susan swain: well, as we look across first ladies, caitlin lauer asked the question that we want to end the program with which is, was lucy -- what was lucy hayes' lasting legacy as a first lady, tom culbertson? thomas culbertson: well, i think she showed that you could be an excellent mother and a supportive wife and also a gracious hostess and be inclusive, welcome in anybody regardless of your social strata into the white house. she didn't bend to the whims of society. she didn't change her look. she didn't change her style showed that a woman can be a woman on her own. susan swain: was she transformational or transitional? allida black: hmm, transitional. susan swain: and what do you

believe her lasting legacy should be? allida black: i think people need to understand the courage that it takes to hold that position, that she brought her own memories and her own love of country into this, as well as support and respect for her husband. susan swain: our thanks to allida black and to tom culbertson, to the great folks at the rutherford b. hayes presidential center, which you can visit if you are in northwestern ohio. fremont, ohio, is where they're based. and to the folks at the white house historical association for their continuing help. that is our look tonight at the life and times of lucy hayes. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> this week on "first lady of: influence an image," we learn about lucretia garfield. she was a believer in women's rights. when her husband was assassinated, she returned to

ohio and ensured his legacy, making their home into an early version of the presidential library. chester arthur becomes president, and his sister fills the role of first lady and establishes white house etiquette, used by future first lady's for decades. this sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's original series "first ladies: influence an imagd image." sundays at 8:00 eastern on american history tv on c-span 3. >> each week, american history tv's real america brings you a archival films that help to tell the story of the 20th century.

>> coming up next from the organization of american historians, a panel discusses the importance of the caribbean in u.s. history. the speakers compare the histories of slavery, abolition, and nation forming, and idea of race between the united states and the caribbean island nations. this program is about 1.5 hours. >> good morning, everybody.

welcome to our panel on geographic taboos, walking matters in u.s. history. it seemed like a good opportunity to think about how the caribbean states, or does not fit, within the field of u.s. history. some people on the panel are specialists in the caribbean, others work on north america and the caribbean. to do that, it is a little confusing to decide what is the relationship between those who work in the field of the creed and others who work in the field of u.s. history. why is it that the organization of american historians has been a less hospitable place for historians on the caribbean? this panel is an opportunity to talk about some of those issues and of course for those of you in the audience, we have five presenters today, and our vision