. frances cleveland this sunday night on c-span's original series "first ladies: influence and image." from mmartha washington to michelle obama on c-span 3. >> each week american history tv sit in on a lecture with one of the nations college professors fit you could watch the classes here every saturday evening at 8 p.m. and midnight eastern. next is west virginia university professor krystal frazier talks about the complexities of family life for african americans in the north as well as the south during the mid-20th century. the emmett till case is mentioned as a watershed moment in many of the stories that she

highlights. >> good afternoon. >> good afternoon. >> welcome back. thank you for paying attention to the e-mails that i sent out. they were reminders about your papers. we are fortunate to have this collection. just because it is a paper on the south come it doesn't count for your paper. and if you attend [indiscernible] over spring break? yippee. please protected to that. and the concert is on the 23rd. that could count as your activity. consider that one. remember to ask me about the ones that you have in mind. a lot of work over school break

and answer questions. we will talk about that today and talk about emmett till. i want us to back up to where we were before spring break. were talking with the world that migrants created. by the 1930's there is a slowdown of migration rate. the great migration happened around world war ii -- excuse me, world war i. their ways we could learn about the world and why they migrated. we talked about oppression and terrorism. and finding jobs and steady work. we could see images of young children knowing it is the case of children moving with their families when they move. this map talks about the

movement. people are traveling via trains. they're going north. cleveland, ohio is called the alabama north there are new migrant communities. we are able to get ebony magazine. including black churches and voting blocs. they pay attention to african-americans who have voting power. we look at the book, there's a good moment of understanding what happened for the migration.

he gives us a portrait of life inside african-american communities internal moments within segregation so we can understand what is happening behind the veil in the 1940's and 1950's. with a second wave of migration, we get high levels of the moving out of the rural south so we can get a portrait of life where people are leaving these places where they are. work was not very profitable. listen to the statistic. in 1940 at the beginning of the second wave, there's a much smaller number of african-americans than what we see by 1941.

networking agricultural labor. the number goes up. there is quite a significant difference. we get to dislike detroit where the numbers than quadrupled. that is a large number. there are many people going away. those were in the south are still affected by migration. take a moment to look deep into these families inc. about what the world is like for children who are in communities where they have been affected by migration. before we get to what is said that migration, let's talk about what else shows up. congregation. remember that term.

we could really see this. what are some examples of this act is of congregation? >> [indiscernible] they had a strong establishment. >> this base was very important for the community. very much so. not just the spiritual aspect or social aspect and economic aspect. what else? >> [indiscernible]

>> it wasn't just at home on the radio. why are people excited? i'm from north carolina. i grew up in duke which is kind of sacrilegious. that was true for me. people thought that was crazy. it does not like the same kind of strong connection people had in st. louis. what is the difference? why do they care? what does he represent for them? >> [indiscernible] >> sure.

of african-americans doing well. what else? >> when she was on the deathbed, they were all around the house and just being there with her as she passed and being supportive to the family as well. >> this is the grandmother. people not just in the immediate family. people were like family to him. we know it is a story that people read as children. let me ask you this?

what is missing in this store? what do we not hear? ok. >> violence is missing from the story. >> violence. we talked about rosholt -- racial terrorism across the south. right. there's not much of a depiction of that. it'll your integral racial terrorism. -- there is no racial terrorism. he is about 10 when emmett till is killed in 1955.

emmett till is often seen as a sacrificial lamb of the civil rights movement. people talk about emmett till being important to the start of the civil rights movement. what we will be discussing, we have been building up to our appreciation and not just bringing it up in the 1950's. we have been talking about randolph. we have been talking about a filled up to the civil rights movement. there are many who talk about emmett till's death being influential to influence them to actively engage in civil justice. why do you think he is not

talking about racial violence? what is his goal in doing that? >> he wanted to show that there were good times. it wasn't all bad. >> right. there is more research for us to do. the case is that it is a significant part of the people in the south. with emmett till's death, it is something that is made very public. the mother had an open casket.

thousands came to sam. 50,000 -- came to see him. 50,000. the people are able to see this around the world. there are newspapers that are tried to show how the united states is a troubled place in the middle of this cold war. 1955. the cold war is going on. this is not looking good for the u.s. internationally. they will maximize that in the struggle. there is a protest that actually happened in october. not just people in the south. his mother is able to do what he does because she's in chicago. she's able to put pressure because of the assistance of black politicians who are in

position and the media has come out of chicago. joyce ladner is also a movement veteran. right? these young people who come of age and who often decide to become active in many parts of the result what happened with emmett till. that can't be all of the story? the are part of the story that shape who they become. we will use emmett till's story it his window to explore african-american life. that is my area of arsenal research. look at the history. african-american families need to be listed for black schools

and churches that are part of how we understand what people are able to do. we're going to look at the back story. figure what happens after his death. we're going to shift and look at his life and look at the family world in which he was raised. we're going to look at some people's stories. does think about the fact that his family is a part of this collective of people who create a trans regional system where the families are in more than one place. some of you may go home to visit relatives. i'm so excited and going to go to to the beach. yes.

right? i'm born and raised in north carolina. lots of times to go to south carolina to visit my grandparents, right. this is a old tradition. my parents didn't send me home for quite the same reason that people send their kids home from chicago and detroit and cleveland and new york in the 1920's. not that quite old. let us think about people traveling. this is one of the teachers. these migrants are on their way to chicago. i want you to think about emmett till's family. his grandfather migrated in 1924. he went up to chicago -- the

chicago area. it is a sleepy town, they said. it got the nickname little mississippi. he got a job at a refinery company. the talked about this. when he goes up he says to his family, come on up. she is born in mississippi, but raised in chicago. in chicago she meets emmett till 's father. they marry and later separate. 1941. that is a baby boomer. those born around the time of world war ii. his family is a part of this world.

they moved to chicago. he's raised in chicago. he is a chicago kid. just like other migrants, he knows things about the south. he learns things about the south from family members from the south. he actually visited the south before. he had done so as a top other. he had had migrants around him all the time. he also learned some people in his family -- he had grown up visiting chicago. there are lots of things -- there is a really rich church community. his grandmother was a founding

member. my mother took in relatives and friends of our relatives. even some relatives are -- even some people are relatives did not know. that is just what we did. how cool is that? how many stores we do here about people list -- stories what you hear about people escaping? they found the promise land was not as promising as they had hoped. emmett would have learned things about the south. he didn't know the same way that other southerners did.

when you think about this network have ever heard about sylvia's soul food? there they are. she is from hemingway, south carolina. small town. her mother migrated and her mother was in new york. while her mother was gone, she and her sister stayed with her grandmother. her father died. her mother goes north. she's able to send enough money home by some property to expand the family farm. then she comes home. she spent a little time in new york. she working on hair and

cosmetics. she meets a man there who is also from the south. her mother then takes care of the children for a little bit of time. sylvia is only able to do that because of her mother's assistance it her mother is only able to do what you did -- he is not leaving trying to find work because she is tired. she's try to make a better life for her family. her goal is not even necessarily to get out of the south, but to make where she is safe for her completely. she leaves and she goes north. we see this network expand. we see this pattern repeated. she's able to help build this

empire. children are really -- when we observe them, we get a quarter of african-american life that is more complex than that of simply comparing a set of parents and their children. if you're going to understand the way families are working we need to look at them. we see this intergenerational connection. let's look at other examples. let's look at these exchanges. there is a famous author.

in that memoir, he talks about his experiences with joint sees as a young man in new york. they recognize they could send children home. one of the reasons children might send children hundred the summer is to keep them out of trouble. he hated it. he didn't like the food. he didn't like much of anything. he didn't like working out in the sun. he confirmed what he had assumed about the migrants that he knew. he thought that they were ignorant and backwards. that his parents mind were stuck in the cotton fields of south carolina. on the other hand, we have charles whom we see pictures when we talk with the freedom

singers. it talks about the experience with his family. and him not being really too impressed. you think about how he appreciated the kind of independence that his family had. they're able to have more freedom. this is true for another man who is from columbia georgia. he says the same thing. he felt his community was more involved with watchmen or activities. it is not a one-sided thing where the south is bad and the north is good. we can see more of that story.

i think these examples are interesting. the elders were still around that were participating in that protests. he went to school with a principal who was his uncle. they used to come home from their holidays. they would share with him all of these experiences. the north is this magical place. he takes him north. they go and a visit.

he said, i cannot. i was never the same. really in a space of his family, these are people who look like me and they aren't counting airing -- and they are encountering life this way and i'm encountering life in this way. where is the cousin from? you remember the state? louisiana. her cousin really wants to come visit her. the caretakers are saying, no way. do they say why?

my fingers are making quote signs. is the north better? that is her cousin. school is out. this is what emmett till said to his mom. he had two daughters to calm -- came to live with him. what is the answer? kevin? >> [indiscernible] they figure that she was outspoken. >> that is what they say.

you cannot go down. you'll get in trouble. you don't know how to behave. what is going to happen to her? you are onto something. you want to say it? >> [indiscernible] they figured if you went north, somehow you got caught up with the ncaacp. they did appreciate the south culture anymore. -- did not appreciate the south culture anymore. >> they don't want her to go north and getting in her mind that she could act like whoever she might encounter and maybe in an unsafe space.

there are certainly african-americans were in the south. you will get in trouble. we know that quote comes from -- there is the boss hogg who is in charge. it is the one who runs the trials for the murder case of emmett till. his foe is where i got the title for the article. in his mind, black people didn't about what was going on in the south. they were content until they went somewhere else and had outside agitators giving them ideas that something was wrong. we know that is not accurate. you knew what trouble was.

we see these segregation cases unfold on tv. there is a new sensitivity. she thinks about ways to connect them but with a person in her family. when you lose a loved one, it hurts more than if someone else loses a loved one. especially if you are a child. the impact could be quite severe. she's able to think about what is happening. this is happening in my family. there's a powerful understanding of what happened.

right? should family in texas and another predominantly black area in san antonio. she goes to boston later in life . she said it was more dangerous than things she encountered living in the south. she grows up. people were often a frayed because of the violence that they encountered. what you learned about emmett till's death, it wasn't particularly riveting. it was a pattern. she grew up knowing.

and he grew up in mississippi home of opera -- oprah. 20 grows up there, he is also in this place where violence is always occurring. they didn't really have fantasy ideas about the north. there are people who were activists. when the family migrates and goes to greensboro north carolina and have a movement there, they're not too keen on the struggles. they have the same kind of critique of society that g

created in the south. all these are the people are part of emmett till's generation. do you recognize this name? that is your textbook. he is the author of your textbook. he is a sociologists. dr. horton is a historian. dr. horton actually note that in the case of emmett till's murder -- >> [inaudible] >> yes.

he wants to understand what could be the case to create this race where a child could be murdered. he is trying to figure it out. he says when emmett till was killed -- she thought the northerners were protected. she thought they had a different experience. if this could happen to a child from the north, it could happen to anyone of us. it is knocks down all the excitement that was had. remember when we did an exercise and we talk about the trauma? i forgot the exact number. we did like, more than two-week.

the elation for many people to say the federal government is on the case and we are going to fight this and we note he segregation efforts are not just about sitting around and holding hands, but rather it is about trying to get full access for the rights to become -- access to citizenship. when this case happens, he is really excited. if this young child could be killed in this kind of way and they give their report were they have to get chicago out -- these

young people say they are going to employ themselves on this site. this generation i think has a unique perspective in this kind of second-generation migrants. the inter-world of migrants. much like you might have friends who are second-generation. there's a different perspective than their parents may have. we know that they are connected to their families for different reasons. sometimes that happens. how does migration effect --

what does he say? it member what you wrote for that? >> he will owe is have a place to go. his family will go there and not come back. their effort is to go and go away. there are family members who migrated. it is that movement in which they changed their names. they didn't come back into her world until in recent years. her daughter was married. they were invited to the wedding .

i contacted the family and introduced themselves again. they are able to reconnect. very often we also see this segregation. there's this recirculation of items like i loved when i could go to new york and come back with my cool whatever i got for fashion and come back to family members did you might have family members that traveled. but for this time period, looking at a child in the 1950's, a child is able to access as opposed that in mississippi as opposed to chicago would eat very

different. -- would be very different. what else in this migration world? newspapers. ok. news is circulating. news of ideas, thoughts activities you get exposure of new ways of thinking. what else? when we're in class last we were jamming to a song. it is a product of this migration moment. music comes out of this migration. what kind of music goes into it?

gospel lose. tell us what the blues looked like. >> a majority of the blues comes from the old songs -- field songs and gospel church songs. then it got electrified. in the chicago clubs, turned into different type of music. >> they could plug in the electric cars. electric guitars and acoustic guitars. you've got a new style, but also a new experience in chicago. we brought a lot of the old experiences to help create this

world i could help this music. it is really riveting and booming in the back. they sing the lead parts. it starts in this migration moment. what else? what else comes out of this migration? what else is circulating? ideas. there's another "i." institutions. churches, right? they're getting funding from the

north. what else? we have been talking about -- individuals, yes. they are moving back and forth. you've got the mama living in the south and the kids living in the south a little while and then moving. there's a moving of individuals. what does this mean for identity? we go to ideas and individuals. how does this shape identity? mama is southern. are you southern? i'm from chicago.

i feel like i know. i'm a real southerner. however, some say it is debatable. is it debatable? why? >> they bring in the packed in terms from the south and some experience. he is immersed in that. they are bringing all the baggage from jim crow. >> what is the baggage? >> violence. >> the impact of what happened to them -- tradition doesn't necessarily have to be baggage. you brought the collective of whoever you are to this new space.

are they also northern or not northern? emmett till's cousins who are your age, are they northerners yet? >> he didn't whistle at a white woman. he wasn't raised -- he did whistle at a white woman. he wasn't raised to think that was bad. he had a white girlfriend. they mixed with white people. >> when you say he could know a woman who was a white woman and it wasn't quite as big of a deal -- that made him northern yeah?

we don't have to live in the either or. she said, you don't have to do that. maybe it is not just one or the other. maybe there is a lot going on there. she prepared him. this is as close as they are going to get. what do tell them in that conversation? >> [inaudible] things weren't the same as it was in chicago.

he didn't grow up in the atmosphere. people were integrated and it wasn't such a big deal. >> he had some freedoms that maybe his counterparts didn't have in the south, yeah? if that is the case, for the question of identity, you might take of himself as a northerner. his mom says this town didn't have the same kind of markers you are familiar with. we talked about all the ways of

the breakdown of segregation and not thinking of whites only or colors only water fountains. we need to think about -- i know you got this -- when we think about jim crow, we're not just thinking about segregation. we are thinking about congregation. [laughter] when we think about separation we also thinking about subordination. not just black and white people become from another, but rather the effort to basically reinforce that people are under. subordinated. that goes back to what was expected of a young man like emmett till.

more thoughts on that identity. when we look at how he was viewed by people in the south, how do they see him? >> kind of this wide-eyed kid. he just didn't know how to deal with being in the south. inderal feeling he had to be segregated. he didn't quite understand. -- he didn't feel he had to be segregated. he didn't quite understand. he did not understood -- understand or give it a lot of thought. it was no big deal.

>> let's go back to charles over here. what did you say, charles? >> you might want to retroactively impose -- i don't think you understand what that meant himself. >> their children in the south that have something deep in their consciousness. understanding their place in the south. how do they understand themselves? she is really troubled. she is troubled by these

discussions that are around her after the murder of emmett till. she heard adult being quiet. she is mad. g hates the white people for what they did and the black people not doing much about it. she is oblivious. if you have these young people who are not having -- the average 14-year-old, is that freedom that teenagers in the south are afforded? these young people have to recognize their space in the hierarchy really early.

i would hate for my little relatives to have that. we could have a self-awareness of what it is that to be in that space. emmett till was kind of carefree. i know have to say yes, ma'am and no, sir. he didn't have that consciousness that some of his cohorts had. in many children go in the family homes in the south they were plenty where a what to do and what not to do.

some of that could be in personality. this made sense for a child -- that didn't make sense for a child to be murdered or have that kind of assault. maybe just rough him up. that is not how it worked out the. let's talk more about the people who are politicized in this moment who are now forced to think about a spirit what are some of those examples? -- forced to think about themselves. what are some examples? >> [indiscernible] ignorance will not protect you. being a child won't protect you. >> i gave you some background in

the article. do you remember? is he seen as a child? >> no. >> you don't think so. i think you are right. how is he viewed? >> they are acting like he is a grown man. he is not afforded the status of child. definitely not. >> he is not seen as a child. he is seen as a man figure. you remember the great this --

rapistness. we have to prove a point. you cannot come down here in act like that. we have to find a way to make it ok. this makes people at the question of who am i? and make some have to think about what they are going to be. when emmett till is killed -- cousin understands that could have been someone in her family. this could have been my cousin. this could have been someone that i know. it could been someone close to

me. it could have been me. let's use as a framework for thinking about how this comes to work? we don't want to argue that there's no civil rights movement for emmett till. i think emmett till becomes emmett till. other people die. they find other bodies. people had just gone missing or supposedly went away for tried to leave. their bodies are in the river. they talk about -- ♪ in the mississippi river ♪

the in the mississippi river song talks about the bodies coming out of the river. he is not the only person to be killed. even mr. timothy jenkins later joins -- he talks about knowing the atrocities across the south. when the emmett till case happened, it doesn't necessarily mean anything surprising to him did he is owing to philadelphia. what is the context of his place where he learns the politics and could critique things?

say it again. the barbershop. the barbershop is on your list of laces where you can go -- laces where you can go -- places where you can go. you can go in there and experience what we are talking about. in this barbershop -- i love this barbershop. all kind of dignitaries. all kinds of non-dignitaries. all caps of working-class people and professional people. the lawyer and the shoeshine man. all of the brothers made a haircut. there are lots of different migrants. they are talking. he is a youngster. he is listening. he learns about the south from

that world. she is a part of the movement. she said, i knew southerners because i knew their family members. i see one in my church. i have lived in new jersey for eight years and i was in rochester. i'm still southern on my sleeve. near my accent. i'm southern. does that happen? some people work hard to lose their heritage -- leave the heritage behind.

going back to how these people are politicized, it has to be in the broader context of these trans regional families. he is from denmark, south carolina. he talks about emmett till. he is from the upper south. it is not a heavy area for activity. but he says that emmett till riveted him. another reason why even among people who were aware of racial atrocities and were not surprised that it happened, i

don't think you want to be desensitized to a murder a time it happens. people are saddened. wow. that happened. what is another and -- element that makes emmett till so powerful? what is another reason that we see it have a big effect? >> wasn't in the newspapers? >> it made the newspapers. newspapers matter. and tv clips. media. it is not the same kind of exposure for other people killed and other spaces in the south. i think that's why it is

the way it is. it helps nationalize a movement that is already a movement. there are people who were in effect to buy what -- affect did by what happens in the south that are already in the south. there are some not legalized spaces fully. like the south part of chicago where african-americans were forced to take housing. there were little agreements, we will not rent to black people in these spaces. exclude them from being able to do what their white migrant counterparts were able to do, and many more of their white migrant counterparts had