[explosion] this is part of the military strength of the united states, the greatest of any nation in the history of the world. this is power of retaliation that has made and keeps full scale nuclear world -- nuclear war the least probable of any contest. announcer: american history tv is featuring c-span's original series, first ladies, on sunday nights threat the rest of the year. c-span produced this series encouraged -- in cooperation with the historical association. we tell the stories of america's 45 first ladies. now frances cleveland on "first ladies, influence and image."

this is about 30 minutes. >> frances cleveland was a celebrity first later unlike any before her. and the mass production of her image to sell a bride of goods by the consumer industry angered her and her husband, president grover cleveland. to help us understand the sensation sweeping the country we begin our story inside 1600 pennsylvania avenue. for the first and only time in our countries history. watching frances cleveland into instant celebrity. >> this is the modern white house. it is the same basic layout as it would have been on june 2. when president grover cleveland and his bride to be came down what was then about large

staircase to the family quarters at the west end of this corridor. they would have proceeded on the hallway, the music started up at the east side behind us here where the united states marine band was assembled. the famous john philip sousa played the wedding march as the happy couple came down the hallway. they would have passed through these doors, these very same mahogany doors. they would have come into the room, a different chandelier here, they would have stood under the chandelier. said their vows. an enormous amount of flowers in the room brought from the white house conservatory. a large table where the sofa is now is a stream of potted plants and potted plants underneath. flowers were hung suspended from the moldings. the mantelpiece was covered with flowers. the fireplace was full of red begonias. to give a feeling of flames and

the fire. it was a very brief ceremony 7:00 p.m. an evening ceremony. the assembled throng just went down to the eastern promenade, for the bride probably to show off her dress. they went down that same hallway we were just in, to a wedding dinner in the state dining room. ♪ >> those are the strains of in 1890's recording of john philip sousa in the marine corps band playing the wedding march they performed at the white house nuptials of francis and grover cleveland. good evening and welcome. tonight, the story of frances cleveland, the youngest first lady to ever serve in that role. meet our guest for the evening. annette dunlop is the author of

a biography on her. let's start with the press and the coverage. without that there would be no celebrity. the press corps, describe what it was like for the nation in the 1880's and how this business of covering presidents was coming into its own. think about the 1880's, it is probably what i would call the age of newspapers. every city had multiple newspapers and every one of those was looking for a way to make money. the best way was to get the best story. whoever could find out where frances was saying, what she was wearing, what she was doing, what she looked like, that would help sell papers. it did not hurt that they made a little bit of it up. it was not quite a secret by the host time june 2 came across. : you say the word was beginning to leak out and investigations into who she might be and what the circumstances could be. they were really priming. ms. dunlop >> absolutely. : from the time cleveland came

into office in 1885, there was all this speculation about who could possibly be his bride. it would waver between some of the women who would help his sister and her receptions at the white house, and then this competition in the mind of the public between whether or not it was francis or her mother, emma. people were convinced it was not frances, she was way too young. right about this time, they used to call it decoration day, cleveland sent out the wedding invitations. at the decoration day parade in new york city, frances was introduced to the public. post the president was not very : fond of the press. we have one of many quotations about the ways that he described them. here is one way you would refer to them ghouls of the press. the view of the press as an enemy was something he picked up on. he said i begin to the fear of estimates of newspaper

correspondents will find its way to our retreat and her presence will increase this probability. this is about their honeymoon. he had some naive concept that they would be able to sneak away for a honeymoon on their own. ms. dunlap: that is what he wrote when they were going at the end of the summer. she thought that he had been able to outsmart press, because they had arranged for a special two-car train, on a side rail, and they figured they could get off to an area around maryland on some privately owned property. there was a telegraph agent who was bribed and revealed what the destination of the train was. because it was pouring rain that night, when they got the train station, they had to take a carriage from the station to to their actual honeymoon location, the carriage got bogged down in the mud which gave the press even more time. they were staked out there by the time they got there.

susan: it gave rise to a new term -- keyhole journalism. ms. dunlap: and another term, which was associated with joseph pulitzer, looking in the keyhole to see if you could see what was going on in their private lives. susan: >> in your book, i read that they finally try to concede and gave an interview during a honeymoon. how does that work to keep the interest down a little bit? ms. dunlap: he had what he called the respectable papers, then the not respectable papers. i assume the respectable papers were those whose views coincided. he invited reporters from the so-called respectable papers to come into the cabin where he and frances were staying. they had stacked telegrams from well-wishers on the table. they shared some of those. very nicely staged, very choreographed. they allowed the press to see some of these papers, allow them to see him and her engaged to

each other. it was their way of saying, now can you leave us alone? susan: not only the age of news papers, but the beginning of the age of consumer branding. as we said in our introduction there was widespread use by the president and first lady's image image to sell all kinds of products. that is how you first learned of this young first lady. looking back at the history of branding in america. if you are to use the president's image today, you would quickly get calls from lawyers about doing that. were there any rules whatsoever about the use of the first couples? ms. dunlap: no, and that is why these companies get away with it. several supporters of cleveland in congress were trying to get that type of legislation passed, to not use their image without permission.

congress didn't kind of like cleveland. the way he would veto legislation was to edit it. he had enough detractors that even though they liked frances they do not want to give them anything he wanted. they could not get these laws passed. susan: here is a bit of frances cleveland she had about her frustration. susan: where is this from? ms. dunlap: that was a letter she wrote to the editor of country magazine. he had run an ad for this company. she had become friends and asked him to arrange for that to happen. susan: we have to explain how this 49-year-old president and the 21-year-old ride ever became a couple. tell us the story of grover and frances cleveland. ms. dunlap: grover was law partners and friends with frances's father. cleveland supposedly gave him

the first the baby carriage and became a fixture in the house. as she grew up, she started to call him uncle cleve. her father was tragically killed when she was 11 in a carriage accident. he was not a good money manager, some people who knew more about the family history said he was a bit of a rogue. he owed more money than he had in his estate. cleveland stepped in as executor and money manager to help handle the affairs and work with emma oversee frances's education. >> i read all of these short biographies, and it tells a story that he became interested after getting into the white house on a visit from the mother and daughter, but your tale goes back further. all the time that she was in college, he was sending loads of flowers to her and writing letters constantly.

did he have his eye on her for quite a while? ms. dunlap: i think he did. one thing that is interesting, people know little of her history. her alma mater will tell her about the special train that would come so he could come visit her. he did write her letters and send flowers. she also accompanied him on campaign appearances when he ran for governor of new york. this is definitely well pre-white house years. susan: her family was receptive of this relationship. what was the public reception about the age difference? >> you had some language that call them beauty and the beast because they did not like him and he was portly, not necessarily the handsomest man in the world. she was an absolute stunner. dark hair, blue eyes, tall, very

good-looking. there were people that thought there was something strange about it, but they fell immediately in love with her. they kind of accepted him as part of the package. susan: gary robinson on twitter -- asking how they met and asks this question -- did she love him? you have spent a lot of time reading her correspondence. can you answer that question? ms. dunlap: i think she started out as most people do, thinking the marriage was romantic. but the age difference was significant. over time it matured into a deep caring. i would say it was a respectful and caring kind of love. susan: grover cleveland had some very specific views of women in society and what he wanted from a wife. ms. dunlap: yes.

susan: would you explain it? ms. dunlap: in that time, there was still this attitude of spheres of influence where women were supposed to stay pure and take care of the home and children. that is exactly where he wanted frances to be. he did not want her pretty little head upset with notions about being first lady or the demands of being in the white house or the wife of a president. he did not think that women should vote or work outside the home. susan: this program, this series if you have been watching along the way, it is interactive. there are a lot of ways to do that. you can send us a question on facebook. there is already a chat going on for a little while about frances cleveland. you can also find our facebook page and be part of that. you can send us a tweet with the #firstladies. the good old fashion way, can make the phone call. here are the phone numbers.

we will be working your questions in throughout our 90 minutes on frances cleveland. also something special for you an opportunity to go inside the smithsonian's collection. you will meet lisa, the first lady's curator at the smithsonian, to go behind the scenes a look at some of the frances cleveland items they have in storage here. not open to the public. we will be taking you for the first of several looks at the smithsonian collection right now. ms. graddy we are here at the political history storage room. : the collection is too vast to be on display at one time. objects not currently on the floor are stored in here. at any point, they can be used for exhibition or lend to

another institution. this is her wedding dress. frances cleveland was an incredibly popular bride. she married the president in a white house ceremony, the only white house ceremony for a first lady. the bodice, filled in with a neck piece. this goes around it and creates a softening effect. it was a longsleeved dress. and this wonderful long train on the underside, trimmed in lace. even the underside of his clothes you don't see had this beautiful trimmed. and this sweeping train. the collection contains more than clothing. at their wedding, we have public and personal pieces. one of my favorite things in the entire collection, this cake box. each of the guests at the wedding were given a satin covered box, painted with the bride and groom initials, to hold a piece of wedding cake.

before the wedding, grover and frances signed a card for every cake box. inside, wrapped in lace. there would have been a piece of cake. this particular cake box was given to the minister who performed the wedding. byron sunderland. the minister at the first presbyterian church in washington, d.c. testament to the public fascination of frances cleveland. this is a piece of sheet music the cleveland's wedding march, composed in honor of the wedding, it was not the wedding march played at the wedding. you can see, it is decorated with pictures of mr. and mrs. cleveland.

these are the images of the cleveland's together that will be part of popular culture for the next 12 years. susan: susan: we are back to our set here. i want to introduce our second guest for the evening, returning from an earlier first ladies program. a historian for colonial williamsburg, steeped in first lady's history. welcome to the conversation. let us talk about the election. anybody who thinks there is hard knuckle politics today, look at the election of 1884 that brought grover cleveland into the white house. pretty rough stuff going on. what was it like? mr. stoermer: politics in the 1880's is brutal. we think about earlier elections where they are taking swings at each other like jefferson and adams. maybe in the 1800 election. politics in the 1880's, you already talked about newspapers, it is personal, it is visceral and because of the way political parties have developed, they are able to take these swipes at each other that really we would find surprising today.

in 1884, all of these things would come out in the 1884 election. two candidates cannot be more different from each other. grover cleveland on the one hand who probably has very little political experience of this sort. he was mayor of buffalo in 1881. elected governor of new york in 1882. two years later, he is the democratic nominee for president. that is all the major political experience that he has. he has developed a reputation of being honest and trustworthy and a reformer. on the other hand, you have got a guy named john blaine, the continental lawyer from maine. if anything, he has too much political experience. he has been speaker of the house, a senator from maine, one

of the major figures in the republican party. he has a reputation for probably having private virtue, a good family man, but also tainted by public corruption and an inside the beltway guy. the whole campaign of 1884 ends up revolving around these things. personal politics. the greatest strength of grover cleveland, the greatest opportunity that the democrats had, is the reputation of cleveland as being a man of public virtue man as any good political operative. they went straight after probably his most weak points, the illegitimate child. >> the refrain for anybody who studied history, ma, ma, where's your pa? gone to the white house, ha ha ha. what was the story? ms. dunlap: a woman gave birth to an illegitimate child in

buffalo, new york. given the way buffalo was at that time, a lot of breweries and immigrants and massive growth, an illegitimate child was not all that unusual. maria named him oscar. cleveland. -- oscar folsom cleveland. he stepped up to the plate and said he would take responsibility for her and the child. maria had problems with alcohol and was not taking care of him. an opportunity developed for him to place the child in the home of the family, mr. and mrs. james king. this young man started his life as oscar cleveland became james king junior. it was all pretty quiet, until they uncover the dirt and found out that cleveland had assumed responsibility for this child, therefore the assumption that he also was father of the child. there were some efforts to cover it up initially. then the famous line that

cleveland says is, tell the truth. susan: what do we learn about cleveland from this? mr. stoermer: he understands the virtue of making a story a nonstory. admit to it and move on. that is sort of how it works . stories go back and forth about why he does it. either he is telling the truth and it is his child, all evidence, the scant evidence that we have is that there is a possibility it is his child. also the possibility it is the child of frances's father. the other part is to admit to it, make it a nonstory, say that it is true and move onto let us next. that is what happened in essence. susan: how did frances's family react to this? it affected uncle cleve, the man she was eventually betrothed to.

at the same time it could have been her father's child? what was their reaction? ms. dunlap: the reaction was interesting, considering as we have been talking about cleveland was very obviously courting frances at this point. it's 1884. she has been getting lots of flowers and going amounts of campaign trips. apparently there is a story where one of her classmates came into her dorm room and happened to see a picture of cleveland of the desk and wanted to know who it was. frances referred to him at that point as the mayor of buffalo. i don't know why it wasn't the governor of new york. her comment was a man more sinned against than sinning. emma wrote a letter to frances saying she hated to see cleveland going through all this trouble with this boy. there is never any discussion in

those letters about who they thought the father was. susan: we will take some calls and come back and talk about the cleveland administration and its significance in history. al is from maryland, you are on. caller: thank you, first of all i have been a viewer of c-span from almost the beginning. you do a wonderful job across the board. i live in allegheny county, maryland. one county east of garrett county, which is where the cleveland's honeymooned. several years ago i had to do some research on the presidents who visited this area, and i dug out my notes on the honeymoon of grover cleveland and frances. i wrote down a few notes on want to share with you. after the white house ceremony apparently late that night or the next morning, they boarded a private railroad car and arrived in deer park, maryland, which is in present-day garrett county. they honeymooned here for about six days stayed at what is now

known at the cleveland's cottage. the press followed them up from washington and railroad detectives had to surround their honeymoon cottage so reporters would not bother them. they climbed trees, they tried to spy on the couple using binoculars, they would bribe the servants to try and get a jury of what they were eating, where they were going. according to accounts, they went trout fishing several times in a stream known as deep creek. they caught almost 50 trout. they attended church together in downtown oakland, that has since been known as the church of the presidents. on their departure back to washington, a left from the deer park railroad station, it was then that the president met with reporters and some of the locals. he said their honeymoon exceeded their expectations. they never slept better. the air and temperature were

delicious and they could not have found a more suitable retreat have a searched the entire united states. susan: let's jump in. you have added some details to the story from the beginning and we thank you for that. anything more to add to his description of their enjoyment? ms. dunlap: he has done good research. that lines up with everything i have discovered, too. susan: is the cottage still around? ms. dunlap: that i don't know. susan: next up is joseph in indiana. caller: excellent series. frances was always concerned about grover's weight. is there anything in research that she actually tried to get him to lose weight? ms. dunlap: she makes some comments -- they got a place outside of what is now part of the cleveland washington, d.c. oakfield.

they were the first president to purchase a private residence to have someplace to go besides living in the white house. frances talks about trying to get him to walk around the farm . she wanted him to dress in a way that that did not accentuate his weight. susan: not his size as much as how he looked. next up is paula. caller: i have a question about the wedding dress. i am assuming it is white in color? ms. dunlap: it looked the more dark cream color. was that it's original color? i think cream was the correct color. it has yellowed with age. susan: any other questions? caller: because of the age difference, if that would take

place today, would we call her a gold digger in today's society? for marrying somebody was such a big age difference? >> who would be criticized, he or she? ms. dunlap: he could've been criticized as robbing the cradle. it kind of goes both ways. susan: it is interesting to speculate what the media would do. and his pursuit in years beforehand. in this age when nothing seems to be secret for a long time. mr. stoermer: what we know now about his involvement with her from her birth, she bought her first baby carriage. he knew her her entire life. there would be people who would think this was a little creepy. moving on, modern people think about donald trump in these kind of may-december relationships.

ms. dunlap: hugh hefner. mr. stoermer: depending on what your moral basis is for these relationships, i think you will get into a similar conversation. susan: to the serious politics of the age, you told us the grover cleveland successfully ended a 24 year gop run at holding the white house. big issues of the time for the gold and silver standard tariffs and corruption. what was his approach to the presidency? mr. stoermer: he was exceptionally strong. not to say that he was a great constitutional thinker. he was no james madison. he did have a very clear idea about what the role of the presidency was and the role of the federal government was. he thought his role as president was to be the guardian of the federal government and do what he had done as governor of new

york, to go ahead and make sure that congress was not doing anything that would screw the country up. they were not going to engage in unnecessary social policy, unnecessary economic policy, he was there to keep them honest and do what he had done in these other positions and reform the broader system of confidence that he thought it undermined. susan: he used the veto 304 times. mr. stoermer: more than that. if you include pocket vetoes. 414 in his first term, which is more than all presidential vetoes combined before him. these are built like soldiers pensions.

he thinks this is just a way for guys in congress to the cable to curry some favor among their friends. he is the vetoing these things left and right. he has no problem in doing that. he has no real understanding given his experience, of how the legislative process works. he is not really about compromising with congress. he is not interested in having discussions about these issues. he cares about health reform making sure that tariffs are being lowered, maintaining the gold standard, that is a sounder economic policy. outside of that, he wants congress to stay quiet. ms. dunlap: the sad part about that, we had reached a point in our economy where tarriff reform is important because we still had tariffs that were way too high and it was hurting us internationally. probably some of the lack of that reform is hard the reason part of the reason that the depression starting that made his second term so dismal.

partly because they could not get tariff reform in place. he was not the negotiator. he did not know how to get things open. he burned the midnight oil. susan: this might be self-evident. we often saw them practicing hosting dinners to bring warring factions together under one roof. he had an acrimonious senate. did they use the white house to bring together any of the forces for compromise? mr. stoermer: less in this than previous white houses. like we said, one of his issues was tariff reform. she attends a senate debate. she is sitting in on the gallery.

it is our direct evidence of her political influence. other than that, they are using the white house for very different kinds of things. she is able to improve his standing in d.c. by standing next to him. he has a reputation of liking poker, he likes hanging out with his friends. he likes smoking. drinking bourbon. she socializes them. which gives him some political cache. but then when you're talking about the white house being used in the ways we've talked about, she is saying things like being involved in copyright legislation, focusing on intellectual property. in order to protect arts and authors. she holds a a reception at the white house for authors to bring attention to intellectual

property. ms. dunlap: to pick up on that, part of the reason why you do not see it is because cleveland would not have had it. he did not want her engaged. he didn't want to use her in that way or take advantage of what she probably could've done for him. if he had utilized her skill set, how first ladies have exercised before. susan: enormous public interest on this young first lady that people were very excited about having in the white house. he had a great tool at his disposal. he elected not to use it.

mr. stoermer: everybody knew it except for him. their editorials about this is his card to play. he is not going to play. he is going to veto as much legislation as possible. which continues to undermine his political capacity. susan: you write about the fact that he has strong opinions by the roles of women. was this framing his decision not to use her as a political chip? ms. dunlap: as part of his view that he didn't want her involved in anything political. even those things that he got involved with, which were not necessarily political,, you see in her letters that he is angry with her because of how much time she is spending with these organizations and not involved with things that she thinks she should be involved with.

mainly home and taking care of him. susan: we are now into the age of photography and we are able to show you images. and many more illustrations done by the media. this is also the first time in the series that we have video of one of the first ladies. this is from later in her life. we thought it would be interesting to show you what the first lady looks like later on in life. we're going to to watch that as we listen to a phone call. this is from matthew in new jersey. you are on. caller: hello. i am calling from the birthplace of grover cleveland. we had a memorial day parade. susan: how did you get the role of grover cleveland? caller: they talked me into it. or i talked them into it. mr. stoermer: how is your shape compared to the president?

caller: i guess he was a little bit heavier. i think he was a little bit shorter. mr. stoermer: he said he was five foot tall and four foot wide. susan: what is a question you have for guest tonight? caller: there was the question about veto. he was lucky because garfield and mckinley were assassinated. it was a tough time to be a president. i just find them interesting. i'm proud of the democrats. he was the only democrat at the time. i focused on that a little bit. over 50 years, there was one democrat. susan: thank you.

we talked about frances while she was not being used politically. she was influenced and image. one was carefully watching the united states. we're going to its return to the smithsonian and look the dresses she chose, and learn how she might have affected style in the country. >> the fascination with frances cleveland really extended to her clothes. she was a fashion icon. women emulated her hairstyle. she popularized everything she had and did. this is a dress from the second administration. this is the inaugural gown. this was her down from 1893. it stayed in her family and became the family wedding dress. the bottom of the dress is exactly the same. the top has been remade. it originally had a satin top with a large sleeve with bows on the shoulders.

lace was used to create new bodice to make it more modern. this was used by her granddaughters. a wedding dress and inaugural dress. let's look at some of her other clothes. even her everyday was very stylish. a lot of them look like something you could wear now. this is a jacket. black with beautiful velvet. it is definitely day wear. this is an evening piece. slightly more ornate. it would have had a matching skirt. daytime vest.

this would have a matching collar. you can wear this with a shirt and skirt. it is 100 years old now. one of the earlier dresses, this dress was on display before even that. we change them around. this was a reception dress she would've worn during the second administration. the 1890's are when sleeves become larger. this is a beautiful skirt and bodice. a matching evening gown. large puffed sleeves. trimmed in lace and butterflies. a description at the time talks about the butterflies.

looking as if they would alight from her shoulders. you can see the damage that light will do. this is why we rotate them. velvet was originally this color. over the years of display it has faded. susan: i'm curious about how this 21-year-old, whose family finances were rather insecure, developed this taste and style. ms. dunlap: sometimes it is just innate. she seemed to have had it. there was suggestion that her grandfather, who had lost his adult children, was interested in taking care of his grandchildren, provided money to pay for her. cleveland was not as wealthy as many presidents who own large amounts of land. he was not a poor man, either.

one she married him, there was money to purchase nice clothing. she set some trends. the one she is the most famous for, getting rid of the bustle. it was a wire contraption that was on the back of your dress. it had gone out of fashion. a french couture decided to bring it back. he could sell more fabric because you needed it to drape over this metal contraption. it was from the waist and over the hips. it was a slow-moving washington. reporters were looking for a story. they would say let's say she has quit wearing a bustle. the public believed it. the ladies had all their dresses remade. when she came back and went shopping, she asked for a bustle, and they said we heard that you have quit wearing them.

since we have heard that everyone has quit asking for them. but if you won't want, we will get one for you. she just looked at her and said, if they say that i stopped wearing a bustle, i guess i have to stop wearing a bustle. she all her clothes remade. mr. stoermer: i think is a remarkable reflection of exactly how important all that coverage is. they can use the extra ones as catchers masks. she is a baseball fan. susan: we should make the point that women's dress reform was very political, because the clothing women were wearing was restrictive and there was a movement to release woman from these restrictive clothing. it was a battle of the conservatives view versus the liberal view. did she get involved in this at all?

ms. dunlap: she didn't get involved in it directly. it is interesting. you look at photographs at her she is dressed very casually. she is still wearing a dress. she's in a bathing costume. she is wearing what we would describe as a simple shift. away from the corsets, the ornamentation. when she was in public, she was going to dress in a way she thought the public would expect her to look. susan: let's go back to phone calls. caller: hello. i am just calling to say that my husband and i own the house that the cleveland's rented for two summers in marion. they came to marion because richard watson gilder had given a talk at wells college and had met mrs. cleveland. she her husband was under a lot

of stress. when they found out that there was good fishing off of marion they came during the summer in between his two terms, and they also have the only child that was born in the white house. their oldest daughter was supposed to have been named after her. there next daughter was named after marion because they loved living here so much. they also had receptions here and were very accessible to the people of marion. the people here are very fond of the memories of the cleveland's. susan: what is the house like today? is is still in the style of the time? caller: it has been added onto. they lived in it when it was more like a farmhouse.

i actually have quite a few photographs of them sitting on the porch. later on, it was made into a much larger house of the shingle style. it was very popular for houses on the water. so it changed. actually, grover cleveland wanted to buy this house. the owner named a high price, so he decided he was a frugal man and decided not to buy it and went down to born and bought a house there. >> you may be getting phone calls from our guests here to see those photographs. thank you for your call. and sharing your own personal connection. we're going to quickly run out of time on this important term of the cleveland's. how involved was she at all in any of the aspects of his

presidency? ms. dunlap: the biggest issue probably the time was the copyright that she was involved in. mr. stoermer: i think you are right in terms of her influence. she is going far beyond just the kind of parlor politics of having people over and talking to that retail politics. she is doing things like going to rallies to support this legislation. she would go there to make sure she was being associated with this legislation. ms. dunlap: there is a connection between what was going on in marion massachusetts, and the support of the copyright. that was where the owner of sentry magazine and his wife and artists, had salons. that is how frances met joseph

jefferson and mark twain, and well-known writers of that time. that is why she got involved in that. she became very supportive of the copyright. i guess we should tell your viewers that the issue of the copyright is a part of the tariff issue. american writers were not able to get royalties if their works were sold abroad. what the effort was was to get these international protections for american authors so they would be able to get their royalties when their works were sold internationally. mr. stoermer: the major political issues of the day, the huge debate over the gold standard versus replacing it with something that was based on silver, or legislation regarding the native american lands and assimilation that any kind of legislation dealing with the

massive increase of immigration she is not involved in any of that to any extent. there is one particular story during the first term in 1887. the new york fire department asks her to go and come up to be a part of a public event. she writes back saying that she is not going to attend. it is her view of the role of first lady to not engage in these kinds of public ceremonies without the presence of her husband. the head of the fire department gets ticked off about this and writes the president. he responds directly to him saying i agree with her decision, however it is up to her. if this is her concept of what the role of a first lady is, i support it.

i am not exactly sure that was her decision. [laughter] susan: did they travel during the first term? ms. dunlap: they had a very successful western and southern tour. this was the first time since the end of the civil war where a president embarked on this extensive tour of the south. they were told to get some bodyguards, to get some protection. she writes letters saying it is been a wonderful and terrific tour. the crowds were enormous. mr. stoermer: the people of st. louis make coins with her image on her to hand out.

susan: we are up to the 1880s. grover cleveland stands for reelection against benjamin harrison. what were the issues? mr. stoermer: the biggest issue at this point is the economy starting to teeter. the major part of the issue is really about making sure that so they can shift the monetary standard to silver, they are republicans were going to get back into the white house to do that you have to get back in new york. benjamin harrison ends up being this compromised candidate. he was a cold fish the political

cartoonists having their way with him. they depicted him in this huge overcoat and old-fashioned hat to suggest he is wearing his grandfather's clothes. his grandfather was william harry harrison, a former president. he is the sort of person riding that connection into white house. but the important thing about the election in terms of the understanding of it, two things. it is the first of the big-money elections. this makes campaign finance history. the republicans put $3 million into the race and they forget about the popular vote. they want to focus on winning new york and indiana. $3 million is enormous. more than what has gone into an election up to that point. then there is the issue about what are you going to do about

grover cleveland's greatest card. a republican once said of the time it is one thing to go after grover cleveland. it is another thing to go after both. what they do is, we are back into this bareknuckle time of politics in which the republicans bring up the story that he is abusing frances. susan: rumors of spousal abuse during this campaign are brought up on facebook. true or untrue? ms. dunlap: i'm convinced it is untrue. she loved to go to the theater. grover love to veto legislation. he didn't always go with her.

a lot of times she went with a member of congress or someone who was on the white house staff. the story is that a supporter from congress took her to a play, came back, had a nice chat with the president, but that is allegedly when he beat her and beat her mother. nothing was said initially. there was a minister for massachusetts who started saying these vile things from the pulpit. much like the situation with the illegitimate child, kind of what we would call getting out in front of the story, frances writes a letter that is sent to the papers. she is not supposed to be political. she supposed to stay in her sphere. this letter goes out over her signature that says i wish that

all of the women of this country were as fortunate as i too have a kind and caring husband. here is the interesting thing about that. even though it is her signature, it is not her handwriting. if you look to the actual letter, it is not her handwriting. it was written by daniel mach, the chief of staff. susan: it was crafted within the administration. mr. stoermer: there are these contradictions with grover cleveland. the way the democrats use her during the election obviously you've got to tamper down this particular issue. this election is in fact the one in which the image of the first lady is employed in political ways more than any other election in american history. her image on one particular camping piece in 1856. lucy hayes was on a poster.

the democratic party is rolling out frances cleveland. susan: donald writes -- here his/her quote. she sounds supremely confident. ms. dunlap: it sounds confident. to be honest with you, the moment they hit new york, she started to campaign for him. mr. stoermer: part of it is that he didn't lose the 1880 election. he won the popular vote. he actually outpaced harrison by tens of thousands of votes. but he was swamped in the electoral system. he's the only president other

than fdr to win more than two elections. susan: the republicans were ahead of the democrats in doing this electoral college strategy. it worked for them. mr. stoermer: absolutely. susan: we have another smithsonian video. this will talk about the political partner and the roles that it late in the election that year. ms. graddy: frances cleveland is so popular. people are imitating her clothes. her hairstyle. they are wanting a piece of frances for themselves. they thought she was someone we know. pictures of the first lady became extremely popular. you can purchase your own picture of mrs. cleveland to have in your home. based on these pictures, advertisers and manufacturers make an array of souvenirs. you can purchase and have mrs. cleveland in your house, in your home. you can purchase the small painted glass portrait. you can have plates.

mrs. cleveland can convince you to buy a product. this is the first couple together. she is used in campaigns. while we have grover cleveland running for president, we also have mrs. cleveland running for first lady. this is a set of campaign playing cards were you are electing the president, the vice president, and the first lady. this is frances cleveland and the second administration. it looks little different. she is not the young ingenue. she is a confident matron. this is a pretty piece you could have in your home. notice the same image is used in this ribbon. you can have a souvenir from the world's fair, commemorating their visit to the fair.

susan: so they are moving to new york. why are they going to new york for their next stop? ms. dunlap: it was probably a good place for frances with her interest in the arts, and cleveland got a job there. he worked for a law firm. the attorney for jpmorgan, and several other extremely well-known and financially well-off and influential people. he was considered at council. he wasn't actually practicing law at the practicing attorney as much as overseeing activities within the law firm. susan: the suggestion was it was the way to reclaim the white house. mr. stoermer: they went right back into it. the fact of him winning the popular vote continues the democrats into thinking they're going to recapture new york.

there are some adjustments they can do in order to get back into the white house. cleveland is going to be the candidate. what are the kind of steps they really need to take to shore up the electoral vote so they can get right back there? susan: she gives birth to the couple's first child. there are a number of questions. wondering about the baby ruth candy bar. what is the story? susan:ms. dunlap: the story there is that the first candy company about the candy bar. we should say that ruth cleveland tragically died in 1904. she would have been about 12.5 years old. the candy bar came out in 1909. there have been a lot of songs images, just as they used mr. and mrs. cleveland.

songs, images. mr. and mrs. cleveland and baby ruth. in the 1892 election. the phrase has been out there and the candy company took that name. susan: you referenced her interest in the kindergarten movement. the kindergarten movement was a big social movement in the country at the time, which was designed to do what? annette b. dunlap: it was designed to help americanize immigrant children and their mothers. it was the idea of being able to put children into a school setting in which you could begin to teach them their numbers, their letters, to speak english, american customs, american patriotism, and then it was also a tool with which, as the children were learning, that the mothers would learn along with it. and back in that sphere of influence, the mothers would take that knowledge back and bring it to the husband and to all of the children in the family. susan swain: because we should say, about immigration in the country at this time, it was a critically important issue, and lots of waves of immigrants coming in. taylor stoermer: oh, it's extraordinary.

it's the -- it's the greatest -- it's really the greatest period of mass immigration in american history in terms of the percentage of the population. it's 500,000 -- throughout the 1880s -- it's 500,000 people coming in every year. and they're germans and they're irish, there are a lot of catholics. of course, there are eastern europeans. and then the west coast, there are a lot of people coming in from china who are working -- who are working out there. but the demographic change that the american population is going through and the kind of challenges with the growth of the cities and this major movement from a mainly agrarian population to one that is really based in the cities and is focused more on manufacturing is having a major impact on american culture and on how you're relating to it, on this big question of, how do you assimilate these immigrants to make them good americans? how do you deal with temperance as a political issue? because you don't want to actually tick off people who will enjoy a pint or two at the

end of the day. so these kind of issues that are coming up are the kind of things that women like frances are in their sphere really trying to tackle head on, especially when you're talking about what's going on in the city of new york and in bigger cities in the northeast, what you're doing with the people who have the least resources among them. and the kindergarten is really one way to get at it. susan swain: she remained interested in the kindergarten issue throughout her life. is that correct? annette b. dunlap: she did. she actually had a kindergarten for ruth and for two of ruth's playmates, who were daughters of cabinet -- well, daniel lamont was back again, sort of this chief of staff, and then bissell was the postmaster general. those men had had children about the same age as ruth, so there was a kindergarten in the white house for the three of them. and then frances was also very active in higher education, as well. she was instrumental in the founding of douglass college which was the women's college that's now part of rutgers in new jersey.

and then she stayed very active with her alma mater, wells college, for 40 years as a trustee. susan swain: the 1892 election was a rematch between harrison and cleveland. let's just talk about it from the first family's perspective. first of all, the first lady mrs. harrison, died just before the election. is that correct? taylor stoermer: yes. susan swain: and how did that affect the election overall and the president's interest in campaigning? taylor stoermer: how did that affect benjamin harrison's interest in campaigning? benjamin harrison was never terribly interested in campaigning, but this certainly does -- this certainly does put a -- it does put a little bit of a -- it really impacts him negatively in terms of pursuing with any kind of gusto what's going on. taylor stoermer: but the major problem isn't necessarily what's going on with harrison, but -- who has also suffered some major defeats during his presidency. the major issue is the economy is going to tank, and there isn't anything that he can really do about it, that and the

republican party is splintering. there's still james g. blaine, who's hanging around who had been his secretary of state. he resigns right before the end of the harrison presidency and or to see whether or not he can get one last bite at the nomination apple. and so the republicans are splintering among themselves whereas the democrats are finding a better recipe to go ahead and coalesce. and so the -- so the '92 election is really taking -- the backdrop to that is the crumbling economy and the crumbling republican party. susan swain: so in 1892, frances' prediction becomes true. with this economic uncertainty in the country, president cleveland is returned to office. but it is a tough second term that we're going to learn. and soon thereafter -- and this is one of the most fascinating presidential stories -- we should make the point -- and this is pretty obvious to presidential history -- that the only president in american

history who has served two non-consecutive terms. so he was president number 22 and number 24. he gets two numbers in the line-up. but soon after, they discover a spot in his mouth, this prodigious cigar smoker, and it leads to an interesting story of which frances cleveland is very much involved. tell the story of his surgery. annette b. dunlap: okay. as you said, he found a soft spot in his mouth, and he called his doctors because it bothered him, and they decided that it was probably cancerous. frances was pregnant at the time with their second child, who would be the only child to be born in the white house, as the caller mentioned earlier esther. and the original plan was for them to go to a rental house that they had been renovating, again, in the cleveland park section. and then, all of a sudden, you get this announcement in the paper that they've changed their plans, that mrs. cleveland wants to take her baby to buzzards bay -- this is their place in massachusetts -- for the summer so that ruth can enjoy the winds

and the breeze. and so frances and ruth depart and they go on a yacht of their friends, and they go up to buzzards bay. and then that same yacht commodore benedict's yacht, comes back and grover cleveland gets on it. in the meantime, to dispel some rumors that he may be losing weight and they're saying, well, he's losing weight because he's sick, they're saying that he's on this diet program and that he's kind of like the 1890 version of weight watchers, the banting program. and so he gets on the yacht. they perform the surgery on the yacht. and he's basically gone for a month. and so the press starts to say what's going on? where's the president? they're asking her questions, and she's kind of putting them off, and she's saying, oh, he's just having a good time fishing. he needs the rest. you know, things in the country have been terrible. he really needs this time away. and finally, he arrives and they're sort of able to cover it up with the press.

and then he has to go back for a kind of follow-up operation to get fitted with this rubber jaw, and, again, the press is looking. there is a reporter who eventually broke the story. but the administration unfortunately, discredited him but she was very complicit in the cover-up. and there's one really good quote out of that, and that is she wrote to the joseph jeffersons, who were friends of theirs that were in on all of what was going on, she says, "this morning he had a peach. wouldn't you think a child would have more sense than that, given everything he's just been through?" susan swain: they were worried about infection from eating any fruit. annette b. dunlap: absolutely. susan swain: this is really an incredible tale. the president off the coast of the united states being operated on for cancer surgery, having his entire upper jaw removed later fitted with a prosthesis and all of this essentially hidden from the press. taylor stoermer: and very explicitly so, between somebody like daniel lamont, who -- he was the chief of staff and really amounted to his press secretary, and frances being --

i mean, talking about -- he's just off on a fishing trip really covering every step that they can, even though there are rumors that slip out. susan swain: but his motivation, as i understand it, was a fear that eh economy would tank further. taylor stoermer: this is the issue, is that there is a bigger policy matter at stake in terms of what's going on into the american economy, that right then, that the markets are very jittery, the vice president, adlai stevenson, who was the grandfather of the later candidate adlai stevenson, was not somebody who was seen as being reliable when it came to the markets. and so cleveland and his supporters firmly believed that any kind of hint that the president was in danger at all in terms of his health would actually send the markets even further into the tank, all the wall street investors would go ahead and pull out and accelerate a panic that was already in full swing. and so they had to maintain stability in the markets.

and the only way that they could do that was to keep this completely secret. and we're not even just talking about a little secret, that they make sure that they do the surgery so there is no external scars, and he gives an interview to a reporter three days after his second operation. susan swain: with his rubber jaw? taylor stoermer: with his rubber jaw. annette b. dunlap: right, to make it look and sound like he's perfectly okay and everything's normal. susan swain: it must have been a skill just to learn how to speak with that. annette b. dunlap: yeah. susan swain: marvin, los angeles. thanks for waiting. you're on. marvin: yes, my question has to do with what mrs. cleveland did after she left office. the next democratic first lady after leaving office, mrs. wilson, got very involved in international affairs and attended democratic conventions and so forth. and, of course, mrs. eleanor roosevelt, the next democratic president, also was involved after the white house. and, of course, jacqueline kennedy worked to save various places, like grand central station.

did frances folsom cleveland get involved in any way? did she attend democratic conventions? did she use her influence in any political way? susan swain: thanks, marvin. and we will get to that story in just a couple minutes. thanks for asking that question, because it's an important one to understand her influence over time. patricia, gloucester massachusetts, your question? patricia : oh, hello, susan. i never miss your fine friday night program. susan swain: thank you. patricia: i've just written a book about my grandfather, william woodward baldwin of baltimore, and there's the chapter that i've written about grover cleveland and frances folsom, because cleveland appointed my grandfather an undersecretary of state in 1896. and his wife, katherine willard, was frances folsom's closest friend at wells college in aurora, and they often visited the clevelands at the white house. and frances folsom was the godmother to my father in the white house, and i still have the long dress.

my question is this. katherine willard's aunt was another frances, frances willard, head of the wctu. so how did her friend, frances folsom, and cleveland feel about the temperance movement? thanks so much. susan swain: thank you patricia. some real interesting personal stories tonight. it sounds like you want to make that connection, as well. annette b. dunlap: well, yeah, i definitely want to make that connection, because i lost track of katherine willard and wells college has lost track of katherine willard, and she and frances were, indeed, very close friends. and frances did introduce katherine to mr. baldwin, by the way. frances was the matchmaker. frances took a temperance vow when she -- probably about the time she joined the presbyterian church, which was at the age of 14, and she honored that up until the latter part of her life. susan swain: however, she, unlike the hayeses, allowed... annette b. dunlap: she allowed -- susan swain: alcohol to be served in the white house. annette b. dunlap: absolutely. she served alcohol. she had some very fine wines

served at some good state dinners. cleveland, on the other hand enjoyed his whiskey. susan swain: so the difference between her and the previous administration was she wasn't imposing her views through the white house. taylor stoermer: right, it's not a broader public policy issue for her. it's just a personal issue for her. and the woman's christian temperance union wasn't just about temperance. i mean, this was actually -- the wctu were actually her biggest critics in the first term about the kind of clothes she was wearing. annette b. dunlap: yeah, they didn't like her sleeveless dresses or her low neckline. they said she was being immodest. taylor stoermer: and she ignored them. susan swain: to look at her approach to her job as first lady during the second administration, we have this quote. "i find myself very busy with my social duties beginning again and two babies. i give so much time to the children because i won't be cheated of their babyhood by anything, much less not worthwhile things." susan swain: whitney zatskin asks on twitter, "frances cleveland held weekly white house receptions on saturdays for working women. did she continue that during her second term?" annette b. dunlap: no, she did not.

she really scaled back the social calendar. she did what was absolutely necessary from a diplomatic standpoint during the typical washington social season, and then they tried to actually get out of the white house to this rental house that they had in another part of washington. susan swain: there was concern about the safety of the cleveland children during that time. people were beginning to feel as though they were the nation's kids. how did the clevelands approach this? annette b. dunlap: well, that is interesting, because that's also part of the reason why people decided they did not like her as much. and that, of course, then deflected to him, as well. she started closing the white house gates so that the public could not see the children or her when they were out on the grounds, ands he also uncovered a kidnap plot, which made her even more vigilant toward the children. susan swain: we have another video. this is on the cleveland children from the smithsonian. lisa kathleen graddy: white house children have always been popular with the public. when frances cleveland became first lady, of course, she was a

young bride, and she didn't have her first child until they had left the white house and were living in new york. and their first daughter was named ruth. lisa kathleen graddy when cleveland successfully ran for president again in 1892, both baby ruth and the harrison's grandchild, baby mckee, were a part of the campaign. and this is a piece of sheet music. the lyrics talk about baby ruth and baby mckee vying for who will be the next child in the white house. during the second term, the clevelands had their second child. her name was esther, another little girl, and this is a doll that belonged to esther cleveland. you can see she has eyes that open and close. the public was just so fascinated with them that every time they went outside, mrs. cleveland was afraid that people would actually try and pick up children, take them away from their nurse, pass them around, and wanting to play with them, kiss them, hug them.

they felt as if the first children were -- belonged to them, in a way, just as the president and first lady did. they were a part of the extended american family. it's one of the reasons that the clevelands actually had a second home, and they only stayed in the white house during the social season and had a private residence the rest of the time to create some privacy for them and for their children. susan swain: so her approach to protecting the children made her less popular with the american public. the economy continued to be very, very challenging. so by the time the clevelands finished their second tour of duty in the white house, what was the american public's view of them. taylor stoermer: very dim, for the most part, especially of him. the economy was in the midst of the worst depression in american history up to that point. it lasted for five or six years, with unemployment above 10 percent. it raised -- it got as high as 18%. and he was seen as being able to do absolute nothing about it. and, in fact, he was able to do very little about it.

and then his great card that he had to play, frances, was seen as being much more withdrawn. these questions about the security of the first family as being kind of owned by the american public creeps in for the very first time. there's a reporter who actually snips a lock off of ruth's hair while they're out. and so there are really great concerns about the security. the white house staff -- security staff goes from 4 to 27. and, again, they spend much more time outside of the white house. so she's seen as being much more aloof and -- from the american people. she's not the same first lady that they came to expect during the first term. so you combine these two things together, they can't wait to get out of the white house by the end of their first term -- second term. susan swain: zara is watching is us in maplewood, new jersey. hi, zara, you're on. zara: yes, i wonder if cleveland is buried in princeton, new jersey, along with ruth?

annette b. dunlap: yes, and frances. susan swain: yes. zara: and it's just very plain. it says cleveland and it says ruth and it says frances. and i had no idea, but i sort of figured it out. susan swain: well, thanks for that question, because we're about to learn the story of their post-white house years. he was a new jersey native, he was born there, but was raised in new york, was the governor of new york. after he left the white house for the second and final time, how did the family decide where they would live next? taylor stoermer: frances decided. annette b. dunlap: well, the story that's kind of interesting is that she said that they had -- because they couldn't go out and look for property on their own. they had agents going out and looking for them. and then, finally, they -- the story is that they both came down for breakfast, and one of them said to the other one well, i've had an idea about where we should locate, and the other one said, well, yes, i do, too, and they allegedly both at the same time said princeton. and so cleveland contacted the president of princeton

university, who then found the property that they purchased called westlands. susan swain: and what was their life like there? annette b. dunlap: it was probably the best from the time they got married. they were a real family unit. they got very active in princeton university. as i mentioned earlier, frances got involved with the growing number of women who had graduated college. she was involved with trying to get a college for women started. they adopted young men who were princeton students who didn't have family close by or have money and provided -- you know opened their home to them, provided support to them. cleveland worked with the equitable life assurance association. that was sort of his job. he wrote articles, worked on his letters. susan swain: and had more children. annette b. dunlap: and they had more children. they had -- when they left the white house in 1897, frances was pregnant with richard, who was their first son and fourth child. and then in july of 1903, she

gave birth to their last child another son, francis grover cleveland. susan swain: and how long after that did the president die? annette b. dunlap: he died in june of 1908. susan swain: how did he die? annette b. dunlap: he probably had cancer. it sounds like he probably had stomach cancer. and it was a slow, drawn-out painful death. and they -- he died in the house there at princeton. susan swain: there are a number of allusions drawn between this first lady and much later when jacqueline kennedy for her youth, the public's obsession with her, and also the fact that she -- when she became a widow she remarried. taylor stoermer: right. susan swain: what's the story of her remarriage? i'm not sure if you know this better than annette, but how long after his death did she remarry? and what was the public's view of this? taylor stoermer: i think she married in 1913. it was about five years. susan swain: about five years? annette b. dunlap: it was february 1913, yeah. taylor stoermer: right, to a professor at princeton, a

professor of -- annette b. dunlap: well, he moved to wells. taylor stoermer: well, he had moved to wells, right. annette b. dunlap: he went up to wells, yeah. taylor stoermer: he had moved to wells from princeton, but he was a professor of archeology. they had -- they were roughly the same age. they were only a couple of years apart from each other. his name was thomas preston. and they had a lot in common whereas she made a point of saying a little bit earlier that she and the president had very little in common, and he found boring what she found interesting. it's much different with mr. preston, that they had a lot in common in terms of their interest in traveling, their interest in the arts, their interest in sort of broader culture, the kind of things that really did bore grover cleveland, he found rather tiresome. there was a much different kind of relationship. susan swain: well, regina crumkey on twitter asks the important question. how public was mrs. cleveland's life after grover cleveland's death? annette b. dunlap: well, it was public in the sense that people were still very interested in her and she sort of had to manage the press.

it waned over time, but she was always still a news item, and she got active during world war i. she was active with an organization called the needlework guild, which makes handmade garments and gives to other nonprofits for giving out in emergency disaster situations. so people followed her. you could still read news items about her. but the obsession wasn't nearly as heightened as it had been during the white house years. susan swain: it's important to note that she continues to be against women's suffrage. annette b. dunlap: she was the second vice president for the new jersey association of anti-suffrage from 1913 until women got the right to vote. and then she went ahead and voted, but she still didn't think that women needed the right to vote. susan swain: and what was the public's reaction to a first lady who was campaigning so vigorously against women's suffrage? taylor stoermer: well, in terms of the debate over women's

suffrage, i mean, it's very interesting that there is this split even until the -- even until the amendments pass and way after, about whether or not it's necessary for women to have the right to vote, whether or not that really is an important part of a woman's role in life and the fact that the frances cleveland, although she exercises her own right to vote, that she still is part of a way of thinking about women and their place in american society that develops in the 1870s 1880s -- it's kind of first wave feminism -- about if you want to be the best woman you can possibly be, through education through understanding of the world around you, that is by exercising authority within your own special sphere, that you're not interfering with what men are doing. it's very consistent with what grover cleveland is thinking about what women should be able to do.

so her opposing for the rest of her life women voting, thinking it's kind of a silly, unnecessary thing, and then also her language -- her involvement in world war i and what she's doing in terms of trying to be very active in supporting american patriotism. the kind of speeches she's giving throughout world war i are extraordinary pieces of rhetoric and the kind of things that you would suspect grover cleveland would have no truck with whatsoever. she becomes a very different woman after her marriage to preston. susan swain: and on the personal front, she also helps to raise some of her grandchildren. annette b. dunlap: she did. richard's first wife was an alcoholic, and so there was a divorce, and so frances felt that it was important for them to have a maternal figure, and she was involved in the lives of those children. susan swain: we have an opportunity to talk with one of the granddaughters that mrs. cleveland -- who was then mrs.

preston -- helped to raise. her name is ann cleveland robertson, and here's just a bit of that phone interview that we had with her recently. susan swain: mrs. robertson, i understand your grandmother was very kind and even helped raise you, but that didn't keep you from getting a scolding from her when you missed a weekly family event? ann cleveland robertson: that's true. [laughter] that was the soul of my grandmother. well, this one incident happened on a sunday night in new hampshire in tamworth, where we go in the summer. and on sunday nights, we used to get together. the finley family, who introduced my grandmother and grandfather to tamworth, and the cleveland family, we would get together and sing hymns. and we all really enjoyed that. but each person had their own favorite hymn. but one sunday, i got together with a whole group and went bowling with my cousin and our

square dancing friends and, you know, had a very good time. and i didn't think there was anything terribly malicious about that. but mrs. finley was my godmother, also my grandmother's closest -- one of her closest friends, and she called my grandmother the next day and said, "where was ann during the hymn singing? " and so my grandmother called me to her desk, and she said with a great big quiet smile that she would like to have me back in the hymn singing for the rest of the summer. but i think she really did do it only because my godmother, mrs. finley, who was a very dear lady, a very influential, quite famous lady, but she was very

strict. so my grandmother was trying to be strict with me. but i appreciated that and, of course, obviously went back to sing hymns for the rest of the summer. susan swain: now, we know your grandmother didn't drink, took a temperance pledge, but you also have a story about what happened when she was given some medicine? ann cleveland robertson: oh, yes. [laughter] oh, yes. well, one day, when my grandmother was older, and this was still -- and this was in tamworth, as well -- and i stopped by. i loved to see her. and i stopped by. she had a little porch right off her bedroom, and it had a lovely view of the mountains. and she was having her breakfast, and she was also taking her medicine with the breakfast. and announced with a laugh, she

said what she was taking, her medicine that she was taking with her breakfast, that was supposed to be good for her heart, was whiskey. and the strange and funny thing was that, of course, granny had always been a teetotaler. i think that she -- you know she allowed, of course, alcohol to be served in the white house, naturally. but she herself had never had whiskey. and i can assure you she did not like it as a medicine. so we thought that was very funny. she thought it was a joke on herself, and that was the way she was. she had such a wonderful sense of humor that she could laugh at herself, but she didn't appreciate the whiskey. susan swain: that whole interview was about six minutes long with ann cleveland robertson. she lives now in baltimore.

and we've posted all of it on c-span's "first ladies: influence and image" website. you can find that easily by going to cspan.org. all of the programs we've done so far and all of the videos attached to them are all there so if you're really getting interested in first ladies we're creating quite a repository there, with the assistance of our friends from the white house historical association, who have been our partners throughout this series. we have just a short time left. i want to get larry in from frankfurt, kentucky. larry, what's your question? larry: good evening. question predominantly for dr. dunlap and backing up a bit to the white house years. local history suggests that eleanor lindsay, who was the wife of kentucky senator william lindsay, a fellow gold democrat of president cleveland's, was a very close friend of frances because they were both younger women married to much older men. so i wonder if dr. dunlap knows about this relationship, and more generally, what was frances' relationship with the other washington wives who were mostly much older? thank you so much for taking my question. annette b. dunlap: well, i'm

sorry to say i don't know anything about her relationship with ms. lindsay, but i can tell you that she did an excellent job of having friendships with some of the older washington wives. and some of that was helped by the fact that one of those older wives, flora whitney, pretty much took frances under her wing as soon as frances came to washington as a young bride. and that opened the doors. and frances respected them, and they respected her, and they had a great relationship. susan swain: sheldon cooper on twitter asks, "did future presidents or first ladies ever invite mrs. cleveland back to the white house?" annette b. dunlap: yes, the tafts actually the -- thomas preston and frances cleveland for an engagement party in january, right before they got married in february of 1913. susan swain: and the press took a good view of her remarriage? taylor stoermer: yeah, absolutely. there was only one criticism in which somebody was saying, well, she now has feet of clay. she really should have stayed unmarried, stayed a widow. but for the most part, people embraced it, embraced her. she was back in washington a number of times.

she met margaret truman and eisenhower, and so she -- people really did -- she maintained really, her level of celebrity. susan swain: this is annette dunlap:'s biography. it's called "frank," which was her given name or her nickname? annette b. dunlap: it was originally a given name. well, it was a nickname. it was the name she went by until she got baptized in the church and -- susan swain: and what did grover cleveland call her? annette b. dunlap: frank. susan swain: frank. so in your closing paragraphs of this, you make the case that she has been somewhat lost to history, but shouldn't be. why? annette b. dunlap: well, because she was very strong in education, very strong in the arts, and those are things that we still think are very important today. susan swain: and how did she change the role of first lady? annette b. dunlap: she changed it in terms of putting education in the forefront and getting involved with education and taking care of children. she was really concerned about how children were cared for, and that was something she definitely emphasized. susan swain: and, taylor stoermer, where would you put her in the pantheon of first ladies we've been learning about this year? taylor stoermer: she's the first

celebrity first lady, the first national celebrity first lady. and i think when we're talking about the development of our understanding of the institution of the first lady, then she is the first one in which we get to start thinking about what really are the uses of that celebrity in good ways and bad ways, because there are concerns that have developed about the first family being owned by the american public, but also how that can actually be a positive tool of the broader presidency if only grover cleveland would have been able to see that. susan swain: and the story in that regard will continue. thanks to both of you for being here this week. we appreciate it. and thanks to our viewers for your participation. it makes the program so much more interesting. ♪

>> american history tv is featuring c-span's original series "first ladies: influence and image" at 8 p.m. eastern time sunday nights. next week, we look at caroline harrison. this is american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. all weekend, there can history tv is featuring the city of