everyone at abc stood back and let the fire burn. >> on c-span's q&a. coming up, next, author gary may talks about someone alabama and its role in the 1965 voting rights act in the south. he discusses the movie "selma" and argues about historical inaccuracies. he is the author of "bending toward justice: the voting rights act and the transformation of american democracy"." this hour and 15 minutes of event was hosted by the american folklife center. >> good afternoon. i am from the house historian's office, and i'm part of the oral history team. today i brought in three oral history video clips to share leading to the voting acts right of 1965 before turning it over

to our speaker. to provide background, in 2012 house passed our office to compile oral histories from current and former numbers of congress involved in the selma to montgomery, alabama marches. we have been conducting interviews related to the civil rights movement with members of congress, their family members house staff, and house pages. we wanted to use our oral histories in a creative way to connect the dots the an event that happened in the country and the corresponding legislative response. we created a documentary short. the documentary is in its final stages of production, so i do not have it today, but the three clips are brought would give you a taste of the documentary. the first is of representative

from missouri. the second is cookie roberts, the daughter from louisiana, and the final one is frank mitchell, the first african-american page in the 20th century for the house. these are special because they provide personal memories of the voting rights act, while allowing us to develop a deeper historical meaning of the legislation as a whole, which is what her documentary aims to do. we are excited to watch the full documentary in time for the anniversary on august 6. it will include archival material of the events in selma some provided by the folklife center collaboration which we are grateful for. enjoy the clips and look for the debut of bridging history: selma and the voting rights act of 1965 on our website. we will also announce it on our

twitter page. [applause] >> television was full every night of the violence against the african americans. and to their marches. martin luther king and his friend john lewis. people being eaten and sprayed with water hoses. they had full cawdor -- bull co tter sang lead to those puppies go. the dogs would go and fight kids and people. frankly, that was one of the things that carried that particular civil rights bill.

people said, we cannot have this. frankly, the country is literally being torn apart on this. johnson warned, as i mentioned earlier, that this was going to turn south republicans for 20 years, and it still is. i the time we passed the 1965 civil rights bill, it was at a climax. everyone knew was going to pass. most people accepted it. not with great enthusiasm, but they accepted it. there were rumors that it might add racial consequences, but they did not believe it.

>> of course, the house and senate were not on television or radio. the word would have to spread. people would come to the gallery to listen, because he was a fine speaker. the night before the debate on the voting rights act of 1965, we were at home in the summer. i had graduated from college the year before and was living at home. i think my sister was also around. we were having dinner. we started needling my father on speaking on the voting rights bill. he was whipped at the time. we said, you are a leader. you need to speak on this. he said, stop giving me grief. i'm going to vote for it.

it is going to coause me difficulty voting for it because of representing norlin's and neighboring parishes in louisiana. i will do that, but i will not speak for it. that is political suicide. we kept at him, and he finally said enough. we were finally quiet. we did not come to congress the next way because we did not expect him to speak. he was on the floor and heard a fellow louisiana resident give a speech saying there was no discrimination in the state that blacks could vote in louisiana as easily as white and he could not stand it. he got up. he gave what many people thought was the best speech of his life

for voting rights. it was quite a moment. that piece of legislation is the signal piece of legislation in the civil rights movement. it had more effect than any other piece of legislation. >> i remember that i was around for the voting rights act of 1965, also for medicare. because i was in the cloak room we never really got to -- it was not like cnn or c-span or you could watch and listen. we had speakers were we could hear the debate, but the phone was ringing, and i had to answer the phone and go to the floor to tell someone they had a message. there is no time to absorb it. he just remember that it went on.

for me, i think that i felt like those kinds of things, the legislation, was more historic and more important than anything about my appointment. i looked at my appointment as making sure that i did a good job so that whoever was number two with not have to wait as long. >> thank you. to continue, let me say that we will hopefully be able to see this entire documentary sometime this summer. please welcome betsy peterson who will introduce our speaker. [applause] mrs. peterson: thank you.

i am betsy peterson the director of the american folklife center at the library of congress. i want to welcome you here. i'm looking forward to our reason tatian, and i promise that i'm the last person to speak before then. before i introduce dr. may, i want to thank the production crew briefly. they work behind the scenes and are crucial to making these events possible. let's give them a round of applause. all of the programs that are sponsored and produced by the american folklife center present a platform for artists and community members of all kinds, stripes, from all over the country to share their

research artistry, and traditions with the public. these programs provide an opportunity for the american folklife center to build our collections at the library. they are recorded on video and become part of the permanent collection. these turn off your cell phones. in addition, the videos are webcast on the library of congress website and distributed worldwide through platform such as youtube so that we can share this with other people around the world and for future generations. today, we are pleased to have coverage from c-span's american history division. these programs are critical to allowing the american folklife center to share its mandate and to preserve and present cultural transitions, multidisciplinary scholarship, and impacting our

world today. our speaker is dr. gary may. he is a native californian and educated in los angeles. he has a phd in american history from ucla and taught at colgate university before coming in 1975 to the university of delaware where he talked recent american history for 37 years before retiring last january. he is the author of 5 books, including many which have been auditioned for a possible hbo or netflix miniseries. his most recent book, "bending toward justice: the voting rights act and the transformation of american democracy" was published in 2014 and is available in paperback it was cited by justice ginsburg

in her dissent in shelby county versus holger. the decision that has begun to gut the voting rights act and is a sobering reminder that the fight is never over. bill moyers said. you will not find a more compelling story of the men and women who struggled for the right to vote or a more cinematic rendering of the political battles or the long campaign to subvert it. kerry may has written a book that could change this country if every citizen would read it. today he will discuss "bending toward justice" and how the movie "selma" portray the civil rights movement. let's give a warm welcome to dr.

gary may. [applause] dr. may: thank you betsy, for that introduction. and to others here who invited me to be with you. more importantly, thanks to you for the work that you do preserving the american past not simply for historians, but for all americans and anyone who loves american history. it is a pleasure for me to be here today. i am not entirely a happy person , and i will explain why.

this is probably the most personal talk that i have given of the many talks that i have done about the book. if you had told me a year ago that i would be giving a talk critical of "selma" the first film that puts african-americans at the center of their history they were the heroes of the civil rights movement, but for so long hollywood for trade -- portrayed that story in a different way. if you told me i would be a critic of this film i would've said you were crazy. i know the director, not really well, but we have had

many conversations. she has the story right. this is going to be a historic film. in some ways it is, but sadly there are flaws. what is ironic is that i should have expected it. most historical films are not entirely accurate. it may be unreasonable to expect that. a filmmaker is an artist and can take liberties with the facts but it is my view that if you are dealing with history, you should be held to a higher

standard. you should really try to get the story correct. why agonize? it is just a movie, after all. what i have found is that many people, in particular young people, my former students learned history from the movies. we like to think that they are inspired to go read more when they have seen the movie, some teachers that are here are chuckling -- it does not happen. basically, my students to know some thing, or think they do about freedom summer, learned about that from mississippi

burning, a horrendous foam that i will be talking about. i am not alone in my concern about historical films. a great philosopher once remarked that historical movies are a pack of lies about events that never happened, d told by people who were not there. i would not put "selma" in that group. it is not "mississippi burning." the irony is that for years i taught courses about film in american history. i showed my students "jfk" and "all the president's men" -- and "mississippi burning."

i should've suspected that something would go wrong with "selma." hollywood's manipulation of history began in the year of silent film -- in the era of silent film. "the birth of the nation" was released in 1915. he told the story of the civil war and reconstruction from the perspective of someone born in kentucky and the son of a confederate soldier. the heroes in the film are the ku klux klan that rescue the southerners from black dominance during reconstruction. one horrendous scene depicts the

south carolina legislature where the members, black members, are lounging in their chairs, eating fried chicken, and drinking whiskey while leering as the white women in the gallery who are observing events. when the legislature passes a bill to legalize interracial marriage they go berserk with joy. 15 years later hollywood gave us "gone with the wind" in 1939. a continued the racial stereotypes, or i should say racist stereotypes. it would be continued for the

next 50 years in films, even in television. hollywood's recent treatment of the civil rights movement has not been much better. alan parker's mississippi burning was released in 1989 and tells the story of the investigation of the murder of the three civil rights workers in mississippi. the heroes of the film are 2 white fbi agents who ultimately use brutal tactics that make a mockery of the civil rights movements's nonviolent approach. parker was attacked by historians. he admitted that the film was "very obviously fiction."

it was made primarily for a white audience at home and abroad. our heroes are still white parker said. in truth the film would probably have never been made if they were not. in 1996 we were brought "ghosts of mississippi" by rob reiner about an assassination. as you probably know he was the naacp field secretary, and the bravest man who ever lived. in the first five minutes he is seen. he is shot dies, and the focus is on the white prosecutor played by alec baldwin, who

ultimately tracks down and prosecutes the killer. breaking news, i just learned that rob reiner will be working on a biography of lyndon johnson , starring woody harrelson as lbj. we will see what he does with that. in 2009, when i began working on "bending toward justice"," hollywood was talking about making a martin luther king film, perhaps focusing on the voting rights campaign in "selm a." steven spielberg bought the rights to the speeches of king from his heirs. oliver stone expressed interest in making a film about the

assassination of dr. king. god knows what he would have done with that. apparently, he has discarded that idea. in october of 2009 "selma" got a director. lee daniels announced he would make a film about the voting rights movement. liam neeson would play lbj robert de niro would play george wallace, and the strangest casting, as the brutal sheriff of selma a hefty man who used to dress like general patton would be huge act when -- would be jugh jackomen -- huge

ackman. daniels said that it is really a story of lyndon johnson. martin luther king is a part of it. it is really the arc of a man who starts out as a racist, and is forced to look at himself, and ultimately sides with king. reading this, i shuddered. of coarse lbj is an important personality in the story, as is dr. king, but it was suggested to me that daniels, if he went forward with the focus on lbj was following in the alan parker "mississippi burning" tradition in which the real heroes of the civil rights movement were whites government officials and

dr. king and the others would be marginalized. as i worked on the book, i discovered that the story of the struggle for voting rights was a much bigger story. it began years before dr. king went to selma in january 1965. time and time again i was struck by the courage of the citizens of selma, and the others in the student unbridled coordinating committee who came to work for voting rights. while "bending toward justice" covers legislative maneuvering the relationship between dr. king and president johnson, as well as the renewal of

provisions of the act in 1970 and 1975, and 1982, and 2006. above all, my book is a people's history of the voting rights act. the people who risked everything . men, women who risk their jobs their homes, and very often their lives in the struggle for voting rights. it is a classic example of the collective movement of people to bring about change. president obama, the former community organizer when sir mark, changed is not come from

washington, it comes to washington. this is the story that i focused on. the men, women, and even children who fought so hard. among them were teachers who had been reluctant to join the fight because their jobs were dependent upon white school boards, white run school boards. they had the most lose. their students continually chided them how can you teach us civics when you cannot vote? on a friday in january of 1965 selms'a's teachers, 105 of them dressed as if they were going to

church marched on the courthouse where the register's office was waving toothbrushes a sign of their commitment to spend the night in jail if they had to. not long afterwards, the students took to the streets. 161 of them carrying signs reading, let our parents vote. selma's sheriff clark charged them with truancy and force marched them out of town, pursued by police, state troopers, and his own private posse. they were beaten, shocked with

cattle prods, and many fell to the ground unable to move. one of these students looked up and saw a police officer forcing her to rise, jabbing her in the back, saying you want to march? i will teach you how to march. she could not move. she told him, you might as well kill me. i can't get up. fortunately, the officer went after other people. there are many others whose courageous acts i could tell you about that still fortunately, daniels could not raise the money to make his film

about lyndon johnson. he finally fell into thousand 13 -- in 2013 to ava to make a film. an interesting choice. an african-american woman who produced a small, independent films. but she seemed bright to me as she began to discuss her plans for the movie. the title of the film she pointed out was "selma." her emphasis would be on the unsung heroes of the selma voting rights movement. may i say, my people, the ones i was writing about, this would not be additional biopic as

hollywood calls it where the main character becomes the superhero and his life is covered from cradle to grave. she would focus on a period from january to march, 1965, the period that gave birth to the voting act. she said she had revised paul webb, shifting the focus away from lyndon johnson to king. she wanted to show king asked human being. a great man, yes, but one with flaws. which she was able to overcome to achieve so much. again, she was going to highlight the people, the unsung heroes of selma.

i was in love. i thought, this is going to be amazing. in which began the cast of "selma" and i saw characters that would be betrayed. her husband sam had been devoting rights movement in selma for decades. sam died as a result of working so hard, his business was ruined and his last days were spent in a nursing home but the fire still burned. people would come by to say hello and he would say, are you registered to vote? a vote list people -- a votwleswseless people, he said, is a hopeless people.

one saturday night, the telephone rang and there she was. she thanked me for sending the book, she said she liked it. i told her i was thrilled with their plans for the film. got selma's brave citizens would finally get the attention they deserved. i offered to help her in any way i could. it seems like she had the story right. was i hinting that i wanted to be the film's technical advisor? [laughter] hank out with brad pitt and oprah winfrey? yeah, probably. probably. but she did not make the offer and i did not ask. so blame me!

maybe if i had said, look, you really should have a historian look at the shooting script just to make sure, but i didn't do it. and i regret that. then in the summer of 2014 when the film began to shoot, she called me again asking if i had an electronic version of "bending toward justice" and that david wanted a copy wanted to distribute it to other members of the cast. i said, yes, i do. i would be happy to send it. and i said jokingly, do i get screen credit? and she said what? for reading a book? she was laughing and so was i.

i said, no, no. at the end of movies you see this little part with the director thanks their grandmother -- x is me -- and the caterer who feeds the crew. but that was it. i thought after that since i wrote "bending toward justice" and taught courses on film in american history, that it might be interesting and fun to write a book about the making of "selma." i ran it by ava and she thought it sounded interesting, too. she referred me to a vice president at paramount who seemed open to the idea also.

i am getting closer and closer to brad pitt and oprah winfrey at this point. in november 2014, i was invited to new york for screening of the film. i also hope to meet ava at the same time. she was there, she introduced the film and later took questions. the audience seemed to be young independent filmmakers and some members of the internet press. they adored the film and gave it a standing ovation. i stood, too but my legs were shaking. i left the theater without meeting ava.

she was mobbed by her fans and i spent a sleepless night during about what i had seen. i felt "selma" was too critical of lyndon johnson who was a difficult man with an ego obviously, the size of texas itself. the committed to the voting right still. -- but committed to a voting rights still. the odd thing was that when lyndon johnson came on the screen, the audience hissed him. of course, the most serious problem was a strong implications that lbj had conspired with j edgar hoover, head of the fbi, to destroy dr. king by getting a taped together

and recording dr. king's sexual escapades and sending that tape to his office and eventually his home. that had not occurred and that was one of the major problems that provoked historians outcry. i was especially upset because selma activists had been ignored. amelia borodin, a longtime leade, of the voting right movement, only had a few scenes. nothing crucial. where were the teachers? who risk their jobs. where were the students who were

run out of town and beaten? they were not there. of course i understood this was not a documentary. that a filmmaker with a $20 million budget, really very small, could not get everything in that repeatedly, ava had said this film is a love letter to the selma selma activists -- selma activists, so i thought they deserved some screen time however brief. i think it was maybe 15 seconds of screen time. there were other problems. bloody sunday, the most important event contributing to the passage of the voting rights act, while shown on the screen -- well-shown on the screen and

you may think i am nitpicking but i will try to defend myself. in the movie, bloody sunday is shown as occurring in real-time. in other words, the networks break into their normal shows to take it to selma, take it to the edmund pettus bridge and see that terrible event. that did not happen. it took hours for film to get to new york. in fact, abc interrupted its sunday night movie of the week "judgment and nuernberg: a film about the not to bore trials." and that's important because people watching "judgment at nuremberg" and the scenes from selma were stricken.

they not, what is happening to america? always becoming out to germany? and the next day, they dropped everything. they went to selma and joined dr. king. they went to washington, d.c. to pick -- to picket and the siege president johnson. i went home and there is an e-mail from the publicist at paramount. how did i like the movie? well, what was i going to do? was i going to only emphasize the positive? the most important thing that african-americans and finally heroes of their own history and just omit the problems? or somehow spin it in some

deceptive way? i finally wrote a long and candid e-mail about the problems as i side -- as i saw it. i wonder, you've got to prepare -- i warned her, you got to prepare for reaction among historical immunity -- community. it has happened before certainly with mississippi burning and you've got to get a variety for this -- you got to get ava ready for this. she never responded to that e-mail. i waited, sent another e-mail, nothing. well, i would not be thinking out with rad pitt -- brad pitt. i probably should have written ava.

and i again blame me, blame me. i should have done it! but she was very busy, she was showing "selma" select audiences around the country. really it was too late, although, there was still time to go to that lyndon johnson and j edgar hoover seen and just slip it away. i think had that occurred, she could have avoided much of what occurred. "selma" was released on christmas day, 2014, and soon the critical voices were raised. mine among them. it is hard to say no when "the new york times" calls and wants your opinion. i was one of the few historians who would actually see the

movie. i was not alone, obviously, the great biographer king david carroll was talked to and taylor brandt certainly but they had not seen the film. i was the only one who had. i also wrote a piece called "dr. king goes to hollywood," which "the daily beast" published on january 2, 2015. that same day, i received an e-mail from ava. she was shocked and could not understand why i had written that bad piece. i wrote her and i said, please, understand that i agonized for days about what to do.

what stuck in my mind was the young woman i wrote about going student group who had been so badly beaten. this was just not the full story of selma without those students and those teachers. i wished her the best of luck and i was confident her career would flourish, as it has. i never received a response. a few nights later, i saw "selma " again and i saw no reason to change my mind about the flaws. i was ready to leave my wife loves to watch credits right to

the very end and they ran for a long, long time. and there at the and was a section labeled "the director wishes to thank." very small, though, so we peered and there was -- what i later learned, her parents, david's parents, john lewis, andrew young, others, and forth from the bottom gary may. i felt bad. but i still believed that selma has important flaws. in some ways, an unfortunate conclusion. because dr. king becomes a superhero in this film. it leads people to believe that change is only possible when the

hero comes along and selma shows that is not true. that average people working together, fighting together can bring about change. can be their own heroes. apparently, ava recognizes that there were problems with the film. the dvd has come out and there is a second disc with special features. in that section, she does state the film's "a piece of historical fiction." she said she was not trying to capture all the facts but rather she wanted to represent the truth of it all. i am not quite sure what she means by that because there is

also a guide for teachers, and students are asked to discuss the difference between fact and truth in historical fiction and the usefulness of both the study of history. huh? [laughter] it is clear as mud. still, it is possible that selma's real power is stronger than its flaws. that by showing the bombing of the 16th street baptist church that killed four young girls, by

showing the assault on peaceful demonstrators in marion, alabama , which led to the killing of jimmy jackson i alabama state troopers. and above all, bloody sunday the event that was critical in the passage of the voting rights act. and successful march at the and from selma to montgomery. these powerful images perhaps could contribute to the passage of the new voting rights act that was introduced into congress just last week. those events had a profound impact on the passage of the original act in 1965. maybe, if enough people see the film and are moved by those images, we will have a new voting rights act. i certainly hope so, although it is sad to say that the new act

has no republican cosponsors. the republican party played a key role in the passage of the 1965 voting rights act. the voting rights act was written in the office of everett dirksen, a republican minority leader, and without his help and the help of others, the act would not have passed. one of president obama's favorite quotes of dr. king's is the one that comes from dr. king's speech to the marchers at the end of the march. on march 25, 1965, the "-- "the ark of the is long but it bends toward justice."

to which president obama added -- "here is the thing, that ark does not bend on its own. it bends because each of us, in our own way, puts our hand on that ark and re-bend it in the direction of justice." that is all of us in washington, d.c. to hollywood. to buy. [laughter] -- t y. -- thank you. [applause] >> we have time for audience questions, so please, pipe up. here is a chance to talk to the almost friend of brad pitt. [laughter] mr. may: i imagine he's not a very interesting person. [indiscernible] mr. may: yes.

>> first, i would like to thank you for getting it right about the voting rights act. back in that time in 1964, i was a staff lawyer in the civil rights movement. page 50 of your book, you indicate that lyndon johnson four days before he met kink in the white house -- met dr. king in the white house lyndon johnson was never hostile toward the voting rights bill. he was a great supporter and we worked like crazy to get that done. i was a staff lawyer with responsibilities under harold green and it is too bad that harold green died before he

wrote -- before you wrote the book because he knew a heck of a lot more about the build than i did. it was a time when the relations between how congress and the executive work were not quite the same as today. in fact, in the civil rights division, we wrote virtually every speech of congressman. i wrote senator philips speech, the first speech that introduced the bill into the senate. we wrote the house report, we wrote the senate report. i mean the executive branch -- i agree with you that nothing would happen without the people who had been on the front line and spent all of their courage in making the case for it, but

the executive branch was not hostile to the voting rights bill. i am not sure i would agree that it was all written in the senate office but in other respects -- in line -- mr. may: while nicholas sasso back -- well, nicholas -- >> that's right. well, i have read your book and i thought it was wonderful and i'm certainly happy that you did get it right. mr. may: your name sir? >> steve. mr. may: t y very much. >> by the way, i was also on the brief in south carolina that upheld the voting rights act. i was lucky enough to get a pen. [laughter] mr. may: well, i cannot really

rip you that -- really repeat that, but the gentleman played a critical role. one of the unsung heroes of the story. i hope our filmmaker from the office of the house historian will be seeing you very quickly. any of the questions? -- any other questions? >> i would appreciate hearing from you in regards to the message that came -- that dr. king may have been getting from johnson in a public way. i lived in alabama during the time of the civil rights movement and my impression of my memory is how strongly the message was going all the time.

you have to be more patient, you have to realize the reality with which i'm dealing. you've got to be patient king. your people have got to be patient. not that things were not happening. those of us who read papers or saba news were not made aware -- or read the news were not made aware and that was a strong impression and i would like you to speak to that. mr. may: the question is -- what was the message that president johnson was actually sending to dr. king? wasn't it that dr. king, you must remain patient, we are going to get this done, maybe not this year next to her perhaps. we've got other priorities, medicare, education that needs to come first. frankly, president johnson was

often an erratic personality. one day, he could be -- one that he could become clearly positive about getting the bill up there now. another day telling dr. king you have to wait. on the third day, he told dr. king in a phone conversation which is taped, or you need to do -- what you need to do is go to the worst possible place where people are being denied the right -- i cannot put it like president johnson did, the wonderful, southern for an ocular -- for an ocular, to show how badly they are being treated and once this message gets across, even to the guy who drives the pickup truck, we are going to get this bill passed.

it is hard for dr. king. which lyndon johnson to believe or to trust. he knew -- and the president was saying, you have to pressure me. you have to find that place to create opportunities to convert the congress and the country and helping do this. of course, that is what led the first critic of "salama" is a unfortunately that it was the president's idea that dr. can go this,. -- that dr. king go to selma. when he was thinking that i assume, was that conversation in which the president encourages dr. king to create the conditions to pass the act. again, it was erratic.

when the president met with dr. king in december of 1964, at that point, he told him we are going to do this at some point. you have to be patient. that same day, he asked acting attorney general to cast of voting rights bill. the first thing that the president receives from the justice department, and correct me if i am wrong here, was the options that he was laying out in the first option was the constitutional amendment. it was felt that would be the only way to have a voting rights bill. an obvious see, that is not something the president wanted. and the last was legislation.

but that changed. events forced the change. >> is there any evidence that a film like "selma," although flawed in the way you presented, does impact people's interest in voting given the abysmal numbers of people who vote in this country? is there any way to measure that? or to measure any public response to an impact such as that? >> -- mr. may: the question is, is the anyway to impact the measure of "selma" on voter activism? that is a tough question. i do not know if social