words for bombs. as i have had so many times, if anyone questions are good faith i would ask them to meet us and find us in the appointed place and appointed chair. >> "history bookshelf" errors on "american historytv". next author alan huffman is featured with his book "sultana: surviving the civil war, prison, and the worst maritime disaster in american history." alan huffman was interviewed in

2009 by the bbc's katty kay, who was guest host on the "the diane rehm show." this is about 50 minutes. ♪ katty: thanks for joining us, i am katty kay of the bbc sitting in for diane rehm. on april the ninth 1865 general robert ely surrendered -- robert ely surrendered -- robert e. lee and the sultana

sank in the mississippi river. alan huffman tells us overlooked story. thank you so much for joining us . we will be opening a phones a later on in the program, and comments to alan at our e-mail address. let's start by describing what you have on the front of your book, a picture of the sultana. describe it to the audience. alan: the boat in the painting is in flames in the middle of the river, and you see a lot of rescue boats and it is night and you see people drifting down the river clinging to debris. it evokes what was going on. the river was full of people. there were 2400 people aboard a boat that was supposed to carry 375, roughly. after it exploded and caught

higher, you had people and horses swimming in the river channel, and in some cases there may have been eight or nine guys hanging onto a horse from id. the channel, trying to get to the banks. people drowning each other people floating on debris, there was a lot going on in the river that night. katty: and the boat itself, tell us about the sultana. alan: it was a large steamboat that was designed for transferring cargo up and down the river, but during the war most of the steamboats there wasn't a lot of commerce, most of the steamboats were used for troop transports, there were contracts with the federal government, and in this case that was how this disaster came about. the owners of the self and a and then -- owners of the sultana and the captain of the sultana were bringing these soldiers home from the war.

that's what was happening, they were being paid by head and they managed to fit.400 on. katty: so -- to fit 2400 on. katty: so that was how this happened, they were getting paid by head? alan: yes, and you can imagine there were already 100 passengers on the boat when the soldiers were marched aboard, so i am sure they were quite amused as they watched the overloading of the boat in vicksburg. the boat has three or four levels, if you count the pilot house. the had it open deck and then you had then the state rooms you know, that ran down the center of the boat. katty: where the richer passengers would have been? alan: right, and then coming you had steerage, where the rest of the lower-class citizens were done with the members of the crew of the bow, and if you have

a state room, the officers would have been crowded into that area, and the decks were completely covered with men. katty: was it a luxurious bow, the -- boat, the sultana? katty: -- alan: from the accounts that i read, it was not the top-of-the-line, it was just a typical steamboat that was meant primarily for cargo and also for passengers. katty: so it also had a dining room, that kind of thing? alan: right, and it would have had nice touches in the state room and nice china, most steamboats did, and chandeliers hanging in the hallways and that sort of thing. by our standards today, it would have been a very nice boat tribute there were more lavish boats of the era. katty: and when it took that fateful journey that night in april, was it still a fairly new boat, had it been around for a while? what condition was it in?

alan: it was a good condition it was only a couple of years old. but it had a couple of problems. one was the overcrowding, which was causing the decks to sag, and the crew of the boat were very concerned about that, so the actually had hastily reinforced the decks with beams to support them because there were so many men standing there. the other was the problems with the boat's boilers, the boilers were fired by coal furnaces. the boilers of the sultana had already exhibited problems. katty: even though they were already a couple of years old? alan: right, it was a new design, and innovative design that was lighter weight, and it was later discontinued. so it was known at that there was a problem with this type of boiler, and in fact, the boilers had sprung a leak on the way from new orleans to vicksburg,

but the consensus was that they had needed more work. katty: now when you take an airplane and there is the tiniest maintenance problems it takes more than an hour and you usually have to change planes. it seems that there was a potentially dangerous problem on board this boat, but she sailed anyway. alan: yes, they knew about it but they kept a secret. some of the people on board the boat, some who were more curious, they heard hammering going on down in the engine room and they checked it out. they came down and they saw them working on this patch on the floor. if you try to get off the boat. some perhaps did but some moved to other sections of the boat because they perceived that there might be problems around the boiler. exploding boilers were not new. steamboat travel in the mississippi river was very dangerous by nature. katty: [indiscernible] alan: yes, absolutely, the

average lifespan of a boat on the river was about 10 years. they were dangerous. so these guys saw that work that was going on and they moved to the other side of the boat. they knew. they tried to keep it secret because they wanted to get these passengers. two other boats left vicksburg the same day empty because they were unable to get passengers while the "the new york times -- while the sultana was overloaded. katty: set the scene, while the sultana was there what did the mississippi river look like in the mid-1800s? alan: it looks similar to what it looks like now, but there is not as much development right on the river down there. that at this particular moment, the city of vicksburg would have been ravaged by the war from continual bombardment in 1863 and there would have been a lot

of boats tied to the wharf and the river, which was at flood stage, was very high. it would have been full of logs and the breeze of the -- logs and debris that was bumping up against the boat. when the river reached flood stage, it was just insane. there were whirlpools coming up everywhere, there is the image of the river, old man river this lazy river, but all it takes is to stand on the bank during a flood and watching it is the last thing -- watching it, and the last thing you think of is an old man. it is a very, very dangerous at river at any stage -- dangerous river at any stage but especially at flood stage. and the people on this boat were the last people you wanted to subject aboard -- subject

to this kind of situation. many had to be carried on board. katty: tell us about that night the sultana leaves of vicksburg very crowded. what happened? alan: it stops en route to memphis in helena, arkansas, and at that point, the only known photograph of the sultana is taken by a photographer named t. w. banks. katty: so it is midnight? alan: this is the day after it left vicksburg, it docked there to i presume a take on more coal, because that is usually why steamboats stop, to pick up passengers or discharge cargo. even at this point the sultana did have cargo that it was bringing up river from new orleans. you mentioned that lincoln had been assassinated, it was

carrying the news of the lincoln assassination, and that was one of the ways a news traveled during that time period. it stopped in helena arkansas, and the men rushed to one side of the boat to be in this photograph, everybody wanted to be in this photograph. then it headed up north. it got to memphis around sunset. the men were told to stay on the boat but nobody was going to -- these guys have been imprisoned, they had been in war, this was the first minute that they had had in any city of any size, and they were getting off the boat. and they did. they were going to saloons and going down the river in memphis and they actually had a hard time to get the men on the boat. an interesting little aside, they didn't get all of the men back on the boat. one tragic little side story is that this guy at miss the boat and when the sultana docked on the other side of the river to get more coal he paid of bowman

to take him across the river and he was very proud. katty: and he didn't get home? alan: exactly, they thought their troubles were behind men. the thing that interested me the most about this story was that the disaster was just the climax of basically a staged experiment in human survival. these guys at them through the war, they had been through these terrible prison cap's, they had been through train reqs on the way to the prison to the docks and then many died in basically holding camps waiting to get on the boat. they thought at this moment they were home free, their troubles were behind them. so by the time they departed memphis, the boat pulled away at about midnight, they went to sleep, you know, feeling like they were on their way. katty: alan hoffman is the author of "sultana: surviving the civil war, prison, and the worst maritime disaster in american history," and we will be opening the phones later on in the program we have the

phone number or you can send us anime l with your questions and comments for alan -- send us an e-mail with your questions and comments for alan. we are going to take a quick break. stay listening. ♪ katty: amazing. poor things. alan: the guy that got the man to row him across the river, to the boat, he died. katty: yeah, yeah. and he paid money. he should have stayed drunk in a saloon. a very good argument for staying drunk in a saloon. [laughter] katty: dino sandra managed to get through? -- did you know that sandra managed to get through? >> i think she did.

katty: great. >> [indiscernible] katty: she must be out. i e-mailed the school and tell them that -- and told them i would be out at 12:30. >> standby. ♪ katty: welcome back, i am katty kay of the bbc. i am sitting in for diane rehm. i'm joined by alan huffman, the offer -- author of "sultana," actually, i should give the full title, which is "sultana: surviving the civil war, prison, and the worst maritime disaster in american history." this is not just the story of all of the lives that were lost,

but this is also the story of the people on the boat before during, and after. alan: that's right, the most interesting thing that hit me about this was that these guys were on their way home when this disaster had occurred. it had already been through the mill and had fought through the war and had seen friends and compatriots going down around them, and managing to survive that and then being imprisoned in a squalid prison camp were people died of disease and injury and starvation, thousands died of starvation in these prisons, and these guys survived that. then they are loaded on these trains, and there were three train reqs are along the way and they were finally released. her men killed in the train reqs. it just goes on and on. finally, all they could think about was that they just wanted to get home and then they could finally get on the boat and it is just taking them home and they have no idea that the worst is ahead. so the idea that i had basically

followed a few, just a small group of soldiers, that you could just get to know and follow them all through these series of trials. what i did not foresee going in was that living the rest of their lives was going to be its own survival trial, and that the book was going to link than in that direction as well. i idea is that i was going back to the original opening of the story and building up towards the climax aboard the sultana. but there was so much that happened after the boat that was also interesting, you know, i ended up following these three guys to the rest of their lives. katty: we are going to talk about those guys for just a second, but i want to backtrack to the actual moment where those boilers explode. those boilers on the sultana. alan: ok. it was a terrific explosion that sent many, many people flying through the air, hundreds of feet into the air, many people were killed by the

explosion. some guys survived and didn't know what was happening, even after the hit the water. they would try to swim back to the boat, but when they did they saw that the boat was on fire. so basically when the boat -- when the boilers exploded, it sent, you know, embers raining down all over the boat, so there were little fires that were just spreading all over the boat in every direction, so there was no sense in swimming back to the vote at that point. katty: and what caused those boilers to explode? was it what you mentioned earlier? alan: that was the consensus. there were inquiries into it, they boilers were salvaged after the boat went down when the boat was exposed, and i think the consensus today -- i mean, there were certainly conspiracy theorists that believed the boat was sabotaged -- but the consensus is the type of boilers were very conducive to having

sedimentation. the river water had mud that would flow through them and it could cause a blockage and make one of the tubes overheat. not to get too technical for you, but there were flaws in the designs of these particular boilers, that in all likelihood, caused the problems with the boat, a cause waters to careen -- the careening of the boat, and because the waters to go to one side. katty: not to interrupt, but how did most dime? -- die? alan: most died from exposure, the waters were not particularly cool, but it rained heat out of the body out -- out of the body very fast, and swimming does that more.

katty: and how wide with the river have been at that time? would it have been possible for people to swim to the banks at that side? alan: it was about five miles wide, it's a you had the currents to deal with and the darkness. so if you are flying through the air and landed and you don't really know where you are in relation to anything except a burning vote, it was a very difficult swim. it would have been under the best of circumstances. these guys were very weak, again, and many of them did not know how to swim. of course, even if you knew how to swim, and everyone around you did not know how to swim, then you are going down too. katty: they are going to pull you down. you said that you focus earlier about some of the people in the book. let's focus on romulus. alan: romulus i really feel like

i became friends with in the course of this book. one of the things you have to keep reminding yourself about is that most of these guys, what they had been through, this drama that would be enough for 100 lifetimes, were not yet 21. they were young. that had been through all of this. and romulus, that was the case with romulus. he was 20 years old. the thing that attracted me about romulus was that he and his buddies -- buddy, just another farm boy from down the road had enlisted together, and they fought together, and they fought in the cavalry together, and they ended up in the same prison camp. so their stories just unfolded in tandem. then they both were loaded onto the sultana, and they both survived, and they both went home, back to their family farms, and tried their best to create a normal life. katty: when romulus signed up

and it listed for the union army, he had already lost relation to it, hadn't he? alan: that's correct, he had five brothers who it served in the union army, and one was killed in kentucky. so he enlisted soon after. you know, it is easy to imagine that may be that had something to do with his decision to do that. maddux, that is his friend, john mack x -- maddox you know, his friend, john maddox, he decided to sign up as well. katty: and maddox was just 17? alan: that's right. and there were raiders in that area and that prompted a lot of young men to join the military. katty: so they joined the military thinking they were protecting their homesteads. do you think that was a motivating factor? alan: it was certainly the case

for people who were joining, there were bounties to be paid for people who join the military as well, so their individual motivations, i would like to think that, based on what i know about romulus, that it was more personal. katty: did he have a bit of a swagger about him? alan: yes, definitely. he was obviously a very driven guy to be so young. he never had experienced any of this before hand, being shot at by a the person or being denied food or medical treatment, all of the things he was about to go through, but he honestly has what it takes. it is one of the reasons that i wanted to explore these guys' st ories, because you are always interested in exploring how the world was over thing at you and they continue to survive because you want to know how. katty: what was it about these characters, romulus pabst in particular, that made you want to follow them -- made them able to survive?

alan: i think that romulus was able to obtain focus. threat is a big problem when you are thrown into a survival situation, and anyone who panics is going to make bad decisions. sometimes people who don't panic make bad decisions. there is no template for surviving that will guarantee you every step of the way, but romulus had a very even temper, and based on everything that i saw a, even-tempered people tended to size up the situation around them and pay attention to how others were reacting and take that into account. and romulus, i think it was his even-tempered disposition that help to more than everything. there is no discounting a luck. you know, if you were sleeping above the boilers on the sultana , the odds are that you were not going to survive. or if the sniper had focused on you, or anything that was beyond anyone's control. but what i saw again and again

was that there were people who were able to recognize the situation around them and that it had changed and they were able to adapt to that, and i think romulus was a very adaptable person, and that had to have helped him. katty: another person who survived was jay walter elliott. alan: yes, j walter elliott -- j ay walter elliott was another person from louisiana. katty: he grew up not far from romulus? alan: that's right, he was almost right on the road. he was a couple of years older. elliott was a captain and he earned his promotion and he agreed to take an appointment over the u.s. colored troops as they were called, because it was not exactly a plum assignment. they were not treated the same way as mainstream troops, and they suffered a lot at the hands

of their own army. so he was given a promotion for taking assignment. unlike romulus and john maddox, they basically kept their experiences to themselves up to the war, there is fortunately a lot of records that allow us to trace their stunning trajectory of their experience at what they were nothing kind of people who were long-winded and told anyone who is nearby what they had experienced. jay walter elliott was that guy. you know, fortunately for us because a lot of the details that we know are because of people like jay walter elliott, whose idea -- identity became a survivor of sultana -- the sultana, and he took that opportunity. one of the challenges was to compare notes constantly. katty: so what actually happened

to the three people on that night on the sultana that we know? alan: we know that they clung to debris. jay walter elliott breeds superheated steam from it -- when the boilers exploded, they released all of this steam, so anybody who is nearby would have had scalded lungs, and that was the case with him. friday was an john maddox were not in that part of the boat, and so their goal was just to get to shore and just to swim and they were trying to get to the crowds of drown her's. neither of them mentioned this, but most of the people that did survive who knew how to swim did so by waiting until the moment of the crowds of swimmers who had drowned each other subsided somewhat and then they would make their move. katty: waiting on the boat?

alan: as people were piling into the water, they were taking each other down, and so was use all that happening if you had presence of mind, you would wait. it is hard to wait on a burning boat, right? there is all of this chaos going on around you, but if you wait until the largest numbers rounds, there were waves of people going in a drowning, so if you waited until your moment in the fewest people were on the surface of the water, and then dove in and got away from the boat as quickly as possible that is how they must have survive. jay walter elliott musto floated on a mattress for a while and then continued to drift with debris and then was found on some timber where he was eventually rescued. katty: i am katty kay from the bbc and i'm hosting the "the diane rehm show." if you have any questions or commas, you can phone us or you can e-mail us. we are going to go to the phones

now to diane in glenwood indiana. diane, thanks for waiting. diane: hello i have a question my husband has a, i think, third or fourth cousin who was on the sultana, and i was wondering if there was a record of who was on it and if you could find that information? alan: yes, there are records of who was on the boat. the best source that i found is from the guy named jerry potter, who actually found what he thought was the remains of the boat in an arkansas field back in the 80's, but there is also a book of survivors' accounts by a guy name chester barry. diane: b e r r y? alan: that is correct, but there is a list of survivors that are there, and it is actually, there is a complete list, as far is it is known. some people got on the boat

without ever being recorded. some people were recorded as having died who actually survived, there were a lot of mistakes, so it is very good advice to cross reference, but chester berry's book, i think it is called, " sultana -- "sultan a's survivors," that can help. katty: all right diane, i hope that helps. and let's get a little closer to home with washington, d.c., and we are joined by covers rick snyder. rick: i am actually in arkansas, taking care of my babies. katty: so that is why you are calling from arkansas. rick: just about two weeks ago i filed one of these resolutions in commemoration of the april 27 anniversary of the sinking of the sultana.

i don't think that congress has really done much about this throughout the years, as your guests know. there wasn't much appetite at the time of the sinking for remembering these kinds of events. the nation was tired and lincoln had been assassinated. i think as we continue, people don't realize the tremendous tragedy that occurred on the mississippi river. i just wanted to know that it is h.r. res. 329, and people will be a find it online. katty: government, you are calling from arkansas, but how much do people from your area know about the sultana? rick: those people who know about the civil war or who are more historically oriented, they are more aware about it. there are lessons to be learned, as in regards to contractors and

contractors who can rip off especially in the context of war. i think it is fair to say that in the states where the sultana went down, we are probably much much more familiar with that than the history of the titanic, even though most people know about that, there were more lives lost on the mississippi river on that night in april of 1865 then there were lost in the titanic. i put my resolution out there and i think there are lessons to be learned from this event, not to mention, remembering the suffering of those poor pows who got on the boat and they lost their lives in the river. katty: covers rick snyder, they can so much for joining us from arkansas. we will be taking a quick break. you can join our conversation with alan huffman, and his book is "sultana: surviving the civil war, prison, and the worst maritime disaster in american history." the phone number here is available or you can send us an e-mail.

you can also find us on facebook or you can send us a tweet. do stay with us. ♪ katty: we should get into what the congressman was raising about how so little was raised because of what was going on at the time. great, thank you. thank you. did sandra managed to call the babysitter? sandra: the phones were out. katty: the phones were out where they? center: -- sandra: yes. katty: thank you. >> -- and by the end of her foundation and find a set and the berg -- and by the annenberg foundation, find us on

annenbergfoundation.org. >> next, we are joined by a guess who writes in "the atlantic" that talks about national oligarchy. join us on the next "fresh air." katty: there are a lot of good e-mails. ♪

>> standby. ♪ katty: welcome back. i am katty kay of the bbc, i'm sitting in a for diane rehm. i am joined by alan huffman, he is author of "sultana: surviving the civil war, prison, and the worst maritime disaster in american history." i have an e-mail here from thomas mcqueen who writes from arlington, texas, asking if we could discuss the lifespan of an individual from that era, and how common were boiler explosions?

was the boiler exposure completely independent of the boat overcrowding? alan: those are great questions and as i mentioned earlier lifespans were measured in years rather than decades usually less than a decade. there were a lot of hazards on the steamboats in the mississippi rivers. there a lot of snacks, steamboat boilers would explode, just problems in general. the cause of the explosion of the boilers have been debated ever since, but the cause that is the most credible to me is that the boat is very top-heavy after it unloaded its cargo in memphis, with all of the men on the deck, that it caused it to careen from side to side as it was crossing these flood currents, and as it did that, it caused gaps in the water that was moving through these tubular boilers. the best theory that i have heard that may have caused the boilers to get overheated in

certain places and to put pressure on what was already a problem where they had patched it, so the likelihood is, there was some connection. but the boat had had boiler problems before. alan: let's -- katty: let's go to dan in jacksonville, florida. dan, you're on the air. dan: thank you so much for taking my call. katty: you're welcome. dan: i am very excited about this book because there is very little written on the sultana. in 1961, there was a book that featured a small picture and the account and almost nothing since then, so i deeply appreciate that finally someone has put something together. katty: dan, that is exactly what every author wants to hear. we have other people writing in as a saint that they know so

much about the civil war, but so little is known about this. why are there so little details about this? alan: i think it was what the congressman had mentioned, there was so much information going out and the president had just been assassinated, and there was significant loss of life from the civil war battles. then there was the issue of that this was a story that was not a recoverable to hear because the people that caused this to happen were the military who had just won the war, and they were not a comfortable target at that time. i think for all of those reasons, it just sort of slipped through the cracked. again, going back to congressman snyder's comments, i think the lack of accountability and the lack of awareness are, as always, linked. there was no real accountability for what had happened on the full tannic, even though there

is clear evidence of the bribery that had led to the loss of life. katty: hannah, you are from michigan, you'd join the program, but you do know about somebody who had written the sultana from direct experience. hannah: yes i did, and hello to alan, i read your book and my great, great grandfather died on assault hannah and i am heavily immersed in this event ever since i found that out years ago. -- died on the sultana, and i am heavily immersed in this event ever since i found that out in your's ago. i have a group of friends who get together on april 27, we tell stories about her ancestors, we talk about the prison situation and such, and there is another meeting coming up in knoxville on april 24 and 25th of this month. i know i will be there and i know the alan will be there as well.

actually our organization does keep a roster of those who were on borard, at least as well as we know. the whole truth, we will never really know who all was on the boat but if you were like me to check the roster to kiev someone's ancestor is on, you can e-mail me -- roster to check if someone's ancestor is on, you can e-mail me. katty: say the address again? katty: my e-mail -- hannah: my email is -- katty: so if anyone wants to get in touch they can get in touch with her. hannah, thanks so much for calling in. we have an e-mail from charlie who raises points and touched on the conditions of the prison camp. he points out "the prisoners had

been weak after being kept at prison camps and at andersonville. there was an overwhelming feeling for the southern prison camp and the south was unable to feed its army of it keep in mind, the north didn't feed or keep confederate prisoners well." alan, is that the case? alan: that is true, and it is true that both sides were overwhelmed by prisoners of war. no one really thought coming. once grant ceased the exchange program, then the southern prisoners were in it or worse conditions because they weren't in a position to feed and house and clothes these people -- clothe these people. andersonville stands apart in terms of the depravity of the situation there and the numbers that died there. so yeah, there was plenty of blame to go around for the

mistreatment of prisoners of war during this time. and that really wasn't what i was interested in pursuing. when i was there and doing my story, i was interested in finding out just exactly what these guys were going through. of course you can't talk about that without also addressing why they were going through it, but no, he makes a very good point and i think that is an accurate statement. katty: when you talk about what these guys were going through and why some people survived and other people didn't survive having gone through prison camp having gone through train crashes, having been gone through the sultana, you write in the book at one point that survival is not an achievement it is a process. what do you mean by that? alan: we tend to think that survival is someplace that you get to. you know, that you are reaching shore on a capsized boat, and therefore it is over. but you never know where you are in the process of survival.

these guys could have said, you know, once they were released from prison, that they had survived. he has survived prison and war and yet they had a train wreck ahead of them and beyond that, a steamboat disaster. you never know where you are. you can always get worse. you don't know whether you have experienced the worst at any given moment. so that's why i say that it is a process. some of these guys survived the war, the prison, the train wreck, the boat, and then they committed suicide tenures later because of everything that they had experienced and it was just weighing them down. you know, the way they reacted to the time after the sultana was just as dramatic and telling in many ways as anything that have happened before. katty: how did the three that you really followed, elliott romulus, and maddox, how did they differ from each other? alan: elliott was more different

than maddox and romulus. it indicates that the other two were mostly concerned with just trying to go back to the world that they had left behind. basically, moving back to their farms. romulus married and had five children, and there is a photograph of him standing in front of the farmhouse that he built with a picket fence and some maple trees that they obviously had planted on the lawn. you think, this is the place that he must've dreamed of when all of this was going on. this is what he must've hoped to get to one day. he got there and he lived to be an old man and he didn't talk about what he experienced much. katty: it doesn't sound to me like it surprises you that he got there. alan: no, it doesn't, because maybe the vision of that place is what kept him going, and i think that he did keep -- he did

stay on an even keel. john maddox, on the other hand, whose life ran parallel, up until that moment, had a completely different aftermath. he married five times and he never really worked again and he had a lot of physical problems. he also lived to be an old man, also on a farm down the road but it was a complete different aftermath for him. jay walter elliot as i said earlier, this was his identity. he wrote extensively about it. he moved to alabama after the war with the freedmen's bureau and married several times. he had constant health problems. katty: do you think that any of them, and you mentioned elliott's health problems, suffered from post-traumatic stress? alan: oh, absolutely. there was no word for that at the time, but they clearly did. how could you go through this and not suffer some degree? that was just one thing, one

more thing that you had to deal with. katty: let's go back to the phones to steve in king, new hampshire. steve coming up joined the "the diane rehm show -- joined "the diane rehm show. " steve: thank you so much, this is one of those great tragedies and is there an effort in museums to collect artifacts to maybe memorialize this? it seems that someone found something in a field in arkansas. is there any effort to explore this to awaken some interest in this? alan: i do, there is no concerted effort, though, to excavate the vote. and i will get back to that in just a second, but there is a website, sultanadisaster.com, a guy by the name of david markland, who is part of the group that was mentioned earlier, sultana survivor

descendents, he has put together a website to document artifacts that may be found. katty: are there any remains, in fact, left by the sultana? alan: the boat is buried under a farm field in arkansas. katty: because the river has moved? alan: the bend in the river has moved and the sediment has covered it up as a result. there was a type who wrote a story, a guy by the name of jerry potter whom i mentioned earlier, and there was a farmer who found what he believed to be the remains of the boat. they found basically some burnt timbers and some iron near the surface, but they never actually excavated the boat, the feeling being that doing so would be prohibitive, considering the likelihood that most of the artifacts that have burned on the boat. the whole would still be there -- the hull would still be there, but it is also a grave. this has prevented anyone from

actually excavated the boat. but what i would like to see hopefully, in going back again to congressman snyder, is, i think, is that it is important that this event be recognized, and centrally because no one was held accountable, which does sort of stick in your craw a little bit. this was brushed under the rug. but i also think it is just something that is a fascinating story that should be known, and it should be well marked. katty: i am katty kay and you are listening to "the diane rehm show." do call us or send us an e-mail. let's go to miranda in cleveland, ohio. miranda, thank you for waiting i know you have been very patient. >> thank you so much, i am a retired coast guard officer and most of these cases are just generally referred to in terms of numbers and basic data, you

know why it is lost and whatever, but i wanted to make two points. number one, the type of boiler used in these vessels was called a fire tube boiler, and they are inherently dangerous, and for that reason, they were subsequently outlawed in that point in time. this was done by the state inspection service. every time i hear about a ferry blowing up or burning, say in india or overseas someplace, i was wonder if it was the same kind of conditions that were alive and well during the heyday of steamboats on the mississippi river, because there are so many parallels involved. at the time of the sultana accident and the years prior and the years after, there was very little regulation on the part of the government, and when there was regulation, there was very little effort to take action against those who violated it. i was wondering if you could comment on those issues? katty: good point.

alan: actor, very good point. and the -- actually, very good point. and the sultana was investigated in st. louis. there were inquiries after the disaster because it passed inspection. it then sprung a leak on its way back up the river, so obviously, the inspections were >> -- lax. yes, these types of problems were known with these boilers and they were outlawed after that. but i think, in general, i think at that point in time the issue was just getting people moved as much as possible and no one was paying as close attention to the safety issue as they should have been. katty: given that the safety issue was very clearly documented, and you know about it and we can find out about it a couple of hundred of years later, why was there not more

accountability at the time? it must've been even easier for people back then to say, this is what happened and this is who should be held accountable and this team should -- this steamship should not have sailed? alan: i think it goes back to the idea that the public appetite to know. it was much more important to think about this as a tragic accident and put it behind you than to somehow think that -- katty: even though somehow people knew that the boilers were unsafe? alan: right i mean, several of the people involved unloading the boats commented and there were several people who had inspections, but no one was held accountable. for example, no one went to prison and for example, i think some people lost licenses that were later reinstated. there was nothing ever really done. i don't think there was a lot of zeal on the public's part. this was not something they really wanted to delve into that

moment, which is unfortunate and one of the reasons that the story got lost to history. katty: so the inquiry itself was a casualty of war? alan: yes. katty: one person we haven't mentioned and we should probably talk about before we go with the captain of the sultana. what should we know before i go? alan: captain mason was a captain and some of the crew members were arrested because they according to the charges actually caused people to die as they took over a boat. captain mason died on the boat. katty: alan huffman is the author of "sultana: surviving the civil war, prison, and the worst maritime disaster in american history." thank you so much for joining me in the studio. alan: thank you for having me. katty kay -- katty: i am katty kay for the "diane rehm show." [indiscernible]

katty: it was great that we had that congressman collin. -- call in. alan: and you knew he knew what he was talking about. katty: i've got to run because of got to go rescue her. thank you so much for coming. alan: thank you. >> on "history bookshelf," here from the best writers of the past decade at 4:00 p.m. eastern, and to hear more stories anytime, visit our website. you're watching "american historytv," all weekend, every weekend, on c-span3. >> considered under rated -- underrated by many firstly historians, carolyn harris took up paintings and she was

interested in women's issues and help raise funds for johns hopkins university's, on the condition that it it women. she was the first president general of the daughters of the american residue -- american revolution until she died in the white house. caroline harrison, on c-span's original series "first ladies: influence an image." examining the private and personal lives of the women who were in the white house. on sunday as it :00 p.m. eastern on "american historytv." >> each week, we bring archival films that tell stories of the 20th century. >> it is the annual wild pony island roundup on chincoteague island.

they run wild in great herds at the national wildlife refuge here. once a year, their numbers are thinned by the half-century old is. they will be driven ashore to auctioned, but first local youngsters in a chance at bronco busting. if they succeed, they get to keep the pony. this one is not up to the test. this time. crowds align the shore for the seagoing stampede as the herd is a driven across the shallow water to the corrals. wild descendents of a noble and ancient lineage, they are prized breeding stock. after this event will be a grand auction where bidders will be

traveling for thousands of miles to bid on the horses of chincoteague. >> presidents dwight eisenhower, john kennedy, lyndon johnson richard nixon, gerald ford, ronald reagan, and george h.w. bush all served in world war ii. up next, university of kansas history professor theater wilson talks about their wartime experiences and how that later influenced them as commanders in chief. the library hosted this event and it is about one hour. theodore: since i didn't live during the event, i very much appreciate henry's introduction and i am delighted to take part in the celebration of the end of world war ii in europe, and in

particular, tonight in europe. it is sponsored by the truman library institute and the kansas city public library. institutions -- these are institutions with which i have enjoyed the past opportunities to operate and for which i have enormous respect as sources of intellectual inquiry in this region. one caveat before i take you back to the america of 1941-1945. the title of my lecture is a gloss on tom brokaw's best seller that came out years ago called "the greatest generation," which defined the sacrifice of americans in the cauldron of world war ii as a presumably never to be repeated phenomenon. historians are made uncomfortable with such words as greatest and never to be repeated, because of arab sensitive focus on context --

the cousin of our sensitive focus -- because of our sensitive focus on context. we normally dock comparisons of presidents for generations. nevertheless, i am convinced that the contributions of those ordinary americans, among whom were ordinary eight men who were later presidents who had served in world war ii, had picked up weapons in america's struggle against tyranny, are all labeled as remarkable and even great. the conflict that happened 70 years ago that we are acknowledging this spring still holds a unique fascination today. i historian noted that the politicians and the media felt compelled to make comparisons with world war ii as an instant

reference point in a crisis or conflict. this is even though both the world order and warfare itself have changed. why is this so? icom a 41, can assume that following the extended 50th anniversary commemorative celebrations of the events in 1974 and 19 75, for which i had experienced the prototypical 15 minutes of fame by appearing for six minutes on the today show to talk about the run up to d-day that interest in world war ii would die away. not so. witness the films and greatly understood cultural references and the books about the war. a historian argues and again i agree that the cause is because

we now live in a demilitarized society. despite more than a decade -- society, that, despite more than a decade, we have not experienced conflict. the effect on individual psyches , this is been marginalized by those not directly affected by military service. although american involvement in various levels of conflict has been a notable feature of this period since world war ii, the experience of war -- and the experience of war has largely been compartmentalized due to changes in the nature of warfare and the abandonment of the principle of military service as a basic civic duty. to quote my ku colleague, adrian

lewis, "the most significant development in the conduct of war in the 20th century was the elimination of the american people from the conduct of the wars from the united states." i'm confident that adrian would incorporate the first 16 years of the 21st century internet generalization. in sharp contrast, world war ii, even for those who did not have family members in uniform, generated such direct involvement in the war in such deeply felt engagement with the issues and concerns of the day that as beaver concludes, "no other time marked, changed or ended so many people's lives as world war ii." two -- they were americans who lived or served as a standard of

direct of immediate involvement with moral choices, deceptions of sacrifice, and a struggle against forces seen as a threat to personal freedom and indeed the survival of nations. of course, their memories of wartime, perhaps predictably ignored or romanticized negative aspects of a "good war." waste and corruption associated with the drive, laws of deferments and military assignment, widespread flouting of the price of administration gray and black markets and so forth. what is true as well is the near universal commitment, for waging and winning the war.

a creation in 1940 of america's first peacetime draft eventually saw some 15 million men and women don uniforms as facilities or volunteers between 1940 and 1945. with very few exceptions, and their participation, weather as soldiers, airmen, marines or sailors, represented acceptance of military service as a necessary obligation of citizenship. locating responsibility for administering the draft of local boards within -- more than 6000 of them. reinforced a sense of obligation. of servicemen and women, obtained the right to grant about training, the food, drill sergeants, privileges according to officers, the list is endless.

the great majority and during whatever challenges were thrown at them. -- endured whatever challenges were thrown at them. we have a couple of examples of how that was pictured at the time. one being young men going into a recruiting office. and secondly, going off to basic training. these slides offer -- sorry, the next one. this slide, if you can read it offers a bare-bones summary of the circumstances of military service of americans during world war ii. note in particular the dramatic extension -- expansion that occurred between 1941 and 1945. more than 50 million americans served during world war ii from a total population of 132 million in 1940, and 139 million

in 1945. assessing the engagement of civilians of the work effort while problematic on statistical grounds, supports the claim that world war ii represented a "total war." engaging on a daily -- daily basis on concerns, the citizens and passions of american people. and that the demands of the world economy, average hours worked per week sort. laws for child labor were relaxed. women and minorities flew from custodial positions to factory lines. retirees and disabled that needed skills returned to the workforce. in 1940, 8 million americans were still unemployed.

by 1943, there was not. memorable for many was the rationing system affected by the office of administration beginning in 1941. along with enforcing price controls, the opa rationed a wide range of familiar necessities such as meat, said best sugar, coffee, goods, cheese and valued items such as leather shoes and nylon stockings. over the next four years housewives became accustomed to creating rationed coupons for pounds of ground beef. to ensure an adequate supply of rubber and war related production, use of automobiles limited driving and forced many cars off the road.

the ubiquitous radio announcements and posters, when you write alone you ride with hitler! urged drivers to arrange carpools. rationing of tires only ended in december 1945. similarly important for reinforcing the concept of popular participation in the war effort where the recurrent splat drives. with announcements urging citizens to collect tinfoil and turn in scrap metal. one of my strongest childhood memories is my proposal that families rubber in a bag. an idea vetoed by my mother. [laughter] studies have shown that rationing and recycling,

especially when championed by the unending barrage of messages by every means of communication, created -- maybe to a few of you -- rita hayworth, that's right. when i taught on world war ii, the male students found this very popular and very attractive. but anyway, this barrage of communications, stressing the necessity for sacrifice proved effective in causing ordinary citizens to see themselves as serving as, "a fighting unit on the home front." today we look back on the events of 70 years ago with clear vision, but perhaps having lost the intuition of what those turbulent years meant.

emotionally and in moral terms for the human beings caught up in them. this is the context in which one career u.s. army officer, and army air forces major, and a u.s. navy puts you in kernel -- platoon colonel, four u.s. navy officers and a naval academy cadet, experienced and survived the war, and subsequently served as president of the united states. it is clear that wartime service and views about whether on and america's ultimately victorious struggle in concert with allies to it to feed the access powers -- to defeat the axis had an effect on their career. i generalization about the

nature of that influence is not easily discovered as i wound over the last several weeks. the eisenhower's military career, stretching over four decades, is best known to all here tonight. born in texas in 1890, he grew up in kansas. he went to west point, graduating in 1915, spent world war i as a training camp commander. he attended the general staff college. graduating first in his class. served as eight to the former aef commander general john j christian.

and was general douglas macarthur's chief aid in the philippines. he was called to washington after war broke out in europe. he served in various staff positions, promoted to read your general in september 1941, he was appointed chief of the war division after pearl harbor. dispatched to take command of the newly created european theater of operations. assigned next as supreme commander of the north african theater of operations, and ultimately to the post of supreme allied commander of the allied expeditionary force.

in which capacity, he oversaw the normandy invasion, the operations that led to the ebay -- the day. to see pictures of the signing of the surrendered documents on may 8, 1945. eisenhower's primary roles in world war ii were those of a planner and military diplomat. dealing with prickly personalities within the u.s. army and the anglo-american alliance, patton and montgomery in particular. though his leadership divert -- deserved acknowledgment. the wartime experiences of eisenhower's successor as president, john f. kennedy present a dramatic contrast. a sign of a prominent family and 1940 harvard graduate, sought first to join the army but was rejected because of chronic back problems. he volunteered for the navy in 1941. family influence led to an appointment or assignment in the

secretary of the navy's office. the attack on pearl harbor however, caused the young one to take officer training and then to a trust -- request assignment to the motor torpedo trading center. he commanded three pt boats from december 1942 to february 1943. and then having been promoted, was dispatched to the pacific. on august 2, 1943, kennedy's draft was conducting a nighttime patrol near georgia. when he was rammed by a japanese destroyer. despite reinjuring his back, he assisted the surviving crew

members to reach a nearby island. the group was subsequently rescued and kennedy was awarded navy and marine corps medal. later asked how to explain his heroism, jfk said "it was easy. they cut my pt boat in half." after brief services command of another boat, he returned to the united states in january 1940 four, and filing extended treatment for his back injury, he was retired from active duty in late 1944. linden johnson -- lyndon johnson, his naval career encompassed six months on active duty.

he spent less than two months in active theater operations. born in 1908, he won elections to the u.s. house of representatives in 1937. in june 1940, he was appointed lieutenant commander in the u.s. naval reserve. immediately after pearl harbor lbj was assigned to the office of the chief of naval operations. with responsibility for investigating roadblocks slowing the production of ships and aircraft of the navy. that led, in may 1942, to an inspection trip to australia and new zealand, during which according to the presidential library website, he took part as an observer in a number of bomber missions. one mission, about which some controversy has arisen, resulted in the award of the silver star, given as a result of his decision to participate as an observer in "a hazardous area bound combat missions over hostile positions in new guinea."

in july 1942, president roosevelt, having band federal legislatures from serving in the armed forces, required lbj be removed of active duty. he remained in the naval reserve however, until two months after his accession to the presidency. one more. richard and nixon served -- richard nixon served in the pacific as well. born in 1913, he graduated from a quaker founded college and with the aid of a scholarship was admitted to duke law school. following a short time of practicing law in his hometown he accepted a job in the office

of administration in late 1941 but disgusted by what he encountered in washington -- as he later confessed, desiring to obtain a war record to support his political ambitions, nixon was inducted into the u.s. navy in august 1942. he was commissioned as an ensign in october 1942. after a brief time i a naval air station in iowa, he requested sea duty. he served as the officer in charge of a combat -- air transport command. in locales subject to japanese bombing, nixon never saw,, earning two service stars for " efficient performance." returning to the united states

in august 1945, he served as administrative officer of the alameda california naval air station, neighbor -- later function as a negotiator terminating work contracts, and then resigned on january 1 1946, munching his first campaign for house of representatives. of the u.s. navy officers, gerald ford compiled the longest record of service in the combat theater. growing up in grand rapids michigan, ford was an outstanding athlete, and chose law school at yale over a professional career. shortly after pearl harbor, he enlisted in the u.s. navy reserve and was commissioned an ensign.

he spent 10 months at a physical -- as a physical training instructor in north carolina then seeking sea duty in june 1943, he joined a newly commissioned by aircraft carrier , the uss monterey. serving as athletic director and gunnery officer and then as assistant navigator. during 18 months avoid -- a board the boat, he took part in numerous major naval actions earning the asiatic pacific campaign medal, the nine engagement stars. nearly swept overboard during a massive typhoon in december 1944, and heavily damaged the uss monterey, he accompanied a vessel back to the united states and spent the rest of the war in duty with training command. he was relieved from active duty in early 1946.

there's a picture of him aboard the monterey. our other naval officers, jimmy carter was 17 when the united states entered world war ii. following studies of georgia southwestern college and georgia institute of technology, where he joined the rotc, carter realized a lifelong ambition by being admitted to the u.s. naval academy in 1943. an honored graduate of the annapolis class of 1946, he spent 12 or at sea, then transferred to the submarine service and applied its engineering prowess to the navy's new year submarine -- nuclear submarine program.

his father's death in 1953 caused carter to resign his commission, returning to georgia to take over the families peanut business. -- family's peanut business. although ronald reagan is best known for his wartime participation in making training films, patriotism infused movies, and talking war bonds, his involvement with military service was more expensive than any of the president's we are considering with the exception of eisenhower. born in illinois in 1911, reagan enrolled in a home study u.s. army extension cords in 1935 while working as a radio broadcaster. he then enlisted in the army enlisted reserves as a private assigned to truth b -- troop b and the officers reserve corps may 1937.

prior to moving to california to pursuing a california -- hollywood career, he transferred to the 323rd cavalry. he was ordered to active duty in april 1942. despite repeated requests for assignment to a combat unit, poor eyesight ruled out overseas service. given his background and popularity, the af arranged for reagan transferred to the cavalry -- from the cavalry to their forces for the purpose of assignment to the first motion picture unit in culver city's, california. serving as executive officer reagan was promoted to captain in july 1943.

by war's end, his unit had produced 400 training films for the army air forces. i will pull up youtube to give you a sense of what one of them was. typically it worked find whe -- worked fine when we tried. here we go. [video clip]

future president captain ronald reagan's stars in this fly boy at that, "how to write in a i a zero -- how to identify a zero." he plays a pilot who cannot seem to identify enemy aircraft. >> look at that plane. that's no zero. that's ap 40. lucky thing he missed. look, he's coming back. like to take another shot at it? ok. you've got it coming, do you? stop waiting to get your

recognition. >> undaunted, reagan takes to the air again, shoots down the zero, and comes up aces. for those of us who grew up in this era, that was probably number 13, in the desert east of los angeles. all of these that we watched we tended to recognize. an aviation writer said, he was part -- he wasn't a pilot, did

not go overseas and did not shoot down enemy planes. still he was part of the air force's story. reagan was discharged in december 1945, and his reserve commission automatically terminated april 1 19 53. at the time of his graduation from fight -- flight school in july 1943, george h.w. bush, then 19, was the youngest pilot in the united states navy. the day bush graduated from andover academy in 1942, he enlisted in the navy. first assigned at torpedo squadron bt 51 as a photographic officer, he joined the u.s. san jacinto, piloting a torpedo bomber and eventually flying 58 combat missions. the san jacinto took part in such operations as the battle of the philippine sea, and other important engagements in 1944 and early 45.

on a mission against the japanese radio side in the boating islands, his squadron encountered heavy aircraft wire. -- fire. his engine caught fire. tragically, of the avengers, three men crew, he alone survived. after a brief. time in an inflatable raft, he was rescued by a submarine off station -- on station off the islands and was awarded the fine cross for heroism under fire. following his recent is san jacinto, he logged more flying time until his squadron was sent

back to the united states. he was then assigned to a training wing, and following japan's surrender he was released from active duty september 1945. so what do we make of the disparate circumstances of what these individuals experienced in world war ii? blood can be said about the war's influence on their outlooks as president -- what can be said about the war's influence on their outlook as president? in this collective engagement of americans in this global conflict, tell us about the attitude of the american people of these attitudes today? their comments about the experience tell us something about how it affected them. president bush was interviewed by tom brokaw, spoke of the application to read the letters -- obligation to read the letters of enlisted personnel in his command. when i learned about the diversity of our great country i gained and in the into the lives of my shipmates, and i felt richer.

son of a prominent senator and accustomed to wealth, he was convinced that the experience of combat broadened my horizons. he said, "i think i would be a better president because i was in combat," he also admitted, "if i'm ever in a position to call the shots, i'm not in a rush to send somebody else's kids into the war." his predecessor eisenhower voiced similar sentiments, observing "humility must always be the portion of any man who receives a claim earned in blood of his followers in the sacrifices of his friends." i also said -- eisenhower also said, "i hate war only as open as a soldier who has lived it can come only as one who has seen it brutality, its futility, it's stupidity."

president johnson observed, "the guns and bombs and rockets and warships are all symbols of human failure." richard nixon said, "the greatest honor history can bestow is that of peacemaker." beset by critics during watergate scandal, he took a step -- tougher stance, noting "i believe in the battle, and that it is the battle of the campaign or this office." optimistically, gerald ford proclaimed that valley forge in 1976, " independence has to be affected as well is declared. freedom is always worth fighting for and liberty are ultimately belongs to those willing to suffer for it." ronald reagan voiced the same views.

though the tone is different. " i believe with all my heart that our first priority must be world peace, and that use of force is always and only a last resort, when everything else has failed." speaking before the u.n. generally assembly in 1987 he asked, "cannot swords be turned to shares? can we in all nations not live in peace? in our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much united all the members of humanity." he then said, echoing what would be in the movie "independence day," , " i occasionally think had differences would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world. and yet i ask you as not -- is not an alien force already among us? what can be more alien to the universal aspirations of our people than war and the threat of war?"

echoing the 1930's, reagan observed, " the martyrs of history were not -- the honor people who gave their lives to the nazis did not die in face -- in vain. where is the road to peace? it is a simple answer, after all, you and i have the courage to say to our ever -- enemies, there is a price we will not pay. there is a point beyond which they must not advanced." as we know, all but jimmy carter, who has stated he is most proud of the fact that he kept our country at peace, he said, " we never went to war. we never dropped bombs. we never fired a bullet. but all of the others did find

it necessary to send americans into harms way." interestingly, carter used rhetorical advice -- device employed by psychologists and tacitus william james and 1909 the quote, " moral equivalent of war." they found in warfare, conceptions and tradition of service and devotion of fitted -- physical fitness and exertion, a universal responsibility that is now being taught by european nations practicing universal military duty. in an address about the need for a collective response to the energy crisis, president carter

argued, then decision about energy will test the character of the american people and the ability of the president and congress. this difficult entries -- will be the moral equivalent of war except we will be united our efforts to build and not to destroy. in a letter from the 26-year-old john f. kennedy, two hits sometime girlfriend, arguably represents the most frank response to the circumstances in which the future presidents found themselves. he wrote "the war is a dirty business. it is very easy to talk about the war and being -- beating the japs. to anyonewho talks like that should consider his words. we get so used to talking about

millions of dollars that casualties; and the bucket. but the people deciding the wise and wherefores had better make sure that all this effort is heading for some definite goal that when we reach that goal, we may say it was worth it. or if it isn't, the holding will turn to ashes" ." generalizations from such testimony are not easily appealed. one can say that all of these men emerged from the war possessing awareness that the enormous power, that america's mobilization had conferred on their nation. their views about how best the united states should address

these world went world affairs very significant. looking to the future, all regretted the threat to americans at -- security and humankind's survival ushered in by the funeral pyres of hiroshima and not the sake. perhaps most important for these eight men and the generation of americans that live through world war ii, was their participation in an enterprise greater than their personal concerns. and generating collective energies that proved birth -- both exhilarating and daunting. testimony to a sense of solidarity of shared burdens, of

willingness to sacrifice, and of generally accepted goals for families and communities and the nation, infused the collective memory of world war ii's meaning. president kennedy explicitly referred to that spirit in his inaugural address. many of us here tonight will remember the phrase, "and so my fellow americans, ask not what your country will do for you ask what you will do for your country." but earlier in that speech kennedy proclaimed, " let the word go forth from this time and place, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of americans, born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage, and unwilling to witness or permit

the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed." in one way or another, all of our presidents who have served in world war ii, expressed similar convictions. have their beliefs been rejected or allowed to erode? if one looks at the trajectory of military service, in the united states, and the basic civic duty over the past 70 years, possible case can be made for that contention. proposals for creation of a system of universal military training, thought to be a slamdunk during the war, were eventually rejected and replaced by a limited selective service system that provided military service to an estimated 7 million americans prior to the drafts's termination in 1973.

for most of its 25 years of existence, the draft was generally accepted, in part because educational and other exemptions made avoidance of induction relatively easy. but the demands of the vietnam war led to widespread opposition to compelling military service. along with president nixon's desire to tamp down antiwar protests, a presidential commitment concluded that demographics -- that is the enormous number of young men from the baby boom, costs and moral and ethical concerns demanded another approach. that led to the all volunteer force. a mechanism by which the nation for the past 40 years has

staffed its armed forces. in many ways, given the evolving nature of modern warfare, the aes has proved to be an effective instrument -- has proved to be an endaef effective instrument for enhancing those serving in the armed forces -- armed forces and retaining personnel. but in concert with other changes in american society, can be argued, that the avs has contributed -- avf has contributed to lack of understanding of the man's place upon those who serve in the armed forces. in her persuasive study of the avf's origins, beth bailey, has written their proponents of the avf, instead of framing the debate around notions of citizenship and obligation, are around concerns about the shared burden of service and social equality emphasizes the power of market economics.

selling military service as a job, with benefits and opportunities for enhancing qualifications in both military and civilian steers, was the approach adopted. she observes "if we want to understand meeting of citizenship -- meaning of citizenship, we have to think about the race and rights and -- ways and rights and obligations of citizenship has been negotiated around russians of military service. consider a few recruitment slogans. 'today's army wants you,' 'be all that you can be.' it's not just the job, it's an adventure. get an edge on life. the result -- one as observed,

with a citizen soldier, the armed -- army went away. americans were disconnected from the wars that the united states was fighting." a sharp decline in military service shown in this is notable. another major -- a measure of engagement would be concerned with the greatest generation. is the number of veterans in congress. in 1971, veterans comprised 72% of members in the house and 78% in the senate. 10 years later, that number dipped to 64%. in 1991, president george h w bush sought congressional authorization for the use of force against iraq. the senate claimed 70 veterans out of 98 male members.

of whom 28 senators possessed active duty status overseas in a combat zone. notably, the combat that including members of service in world war ii, split the early for and against the resolution bush wanted. former student of mine, captain daniel ferguson, now teaching at west point, has written, "the two sides divided largely along party lines, but united there a common experience of military and combat service, the outcome was a war by a slender majority. but the process of debate did a great service to the american public, and fulfilled the senate's role as the world's greatest deliberative body."

in 2003, that did not happen. with world war ii vets and many others gone. after the election, resulted in the 114th congress being made up of 81 house members who have served or are serving in the u.s. military, and 16 in the senate. overall, less than 18% of the total in both houses. still, the ratio of veterans in congress is significantly higher than the percentage in the united states population serving in the military. from the 2010 census, only 7% of americans claim military service . the numbers are hugely skewed with those over 65, seven times more likely to have served than those under 35.

" this new generation belongs to a post-cold war society which he knows little of military discipline, wars, and conscript armies, and may appear self-evident or maybe self-righteous." at this point, you may be asking, so what? the response to -- from the gate presidents would be to recall the interwar years when america's armed forces were similarly marginalized, when starved of funds for money station, the u.s. army ranked below romania in size and capability when war began in 1939.

they would also say that today's military challenges demand a ready force of sufficient size and flexibility, fully supported by the american people and congress to be known and an interest -- meet known and unanticipated challenges around the globe. thank you. [applause] >> thank you, ted. i wish i could tell you about this topic, but he does have time to answer questions. if anyone wants to ask, please come to the microphone and dr. wilson will respond sincerely. >> my question is, what is your personal opinion, giving all you told us, what would be the value to our society and nation if we required two years of the

mandatory service to do something -- military, something that would include and further educate beyond what we are getting in high school, with regard to citizenship. the kinds of things that boy scouts teach. a dedication, a passion for the country, what would be the impact on the demographics of our society? theodore wilson: i would add -- : i would add girl scouts of w -- as well. i am in favor of some kind of national service. i think it would offer an opportunity for young men and women to engage in communal activities that would be very significant and part of their own development, and also for the nation. i have to say, i do not see in

this environment that the united states congress or probably any president is going to push that button. but i do think that we have lost something in the sense of having a common experience that many others would argue the same thing -- a common set of experiences, whether it is something like the conservation corps, or any number of other activities. >> my neighbor is a scoutmaster, was found of saying, there is a basic disconnect between those that are serving and those who are servants. which i think speaks to what you just said. >> i was noticing the technical difficulties here which brings me to my question.

not to devalue any based service, but because of technology, is there more expected of the lowest ranking person in the military, as far as actual confident -- confidence and ability to work alone, or without direct supervision then maybe in the past because of technological demands, being so much greater that what is expected? theodore wilson: the all voluntary force overtime has led to significant improvement in both the educational qualifications, and the training available to enlisted personnel. you have to go back to the 1930's, the typical person volunteering -- because a lot of people volunteered for the army, from the depression, the average educational level was seventh

grade. and we now have mandated, at least graduation from high school. >> president eisenhower wanted -- warned about the military-industrial complex. this gentleman talked about the level of education and technical knowledge needed. could you comment on the fact that in previous generations there was a time when even that seventh grade person would have been doing things like cooking or noncombat, or construction, and that has been outsourced off the books to tdr and

halliburton, and other entities that are the industrial part of it? and how does that affect -- the fact that they are in so much more than active-duty service members? theodore wilson: yes, that is one of the realities of over the last 25 or so years that has developed. we go back to colonial times when there were settlers, when supplying the military forces were private entities. i would offer a comment first. i always use the term military

industrial educational complex. i'm not saying that in a printer or it is way, but the reality is, since world war ii -- page or at it way, but since world war ii, the involvement in this enterprise and the benefit from this, was researched through federal grants and the construction of -- on the ku campus you know the history department is located in the bunker, largely constructed with federal funds. but i think your point is well taken, the avf works in part because of the outsourcing and certain types of activity, even war zones, through private friends like halliburton and others.

that's true. >> do you think this was a conscious decision, that congress and other governmental agencies made, or do you think it was in response to the fact that there were not a lot of guys going involuntarily command the service -- to man the service. theodore wilson: rates and recruitment has fluctuated -- significantly over time. it was difficult at first years to get traction. and not sure i can answer the question, that is not my area of expertise. my sense is this is a way of following this notion of marketing -- market economics. all duties that are supposedly a nonmilitary, not directly combat related are outsourced. what happened in world war ii -- well, go back.

in world war i, the relationship between combat troops and support personnel was roughly one to one. by the end of world war ii, it had swung the other way. there were three people behind the lines supporting the one person on the frontline. partly because of demanding technology of the war and war zones. that has continued. that shift of combat from combat personnel to combat support personnel has continued. >> as i was listening, it seems like right now we are actively participating in what eisenhower was talking about.

we are more enmeshed now in military-industrial than we ever have been. am i wrong? theodore wilson: no, i think you're right. i think more overtly perhaps. it has been around for a very long time. >> to what extent is our military today, in its ability to adapt to the new requirements of the new kind of warfare, been influenced by the changes that you have talked about in society? being reflected also in the military, in terms of the commitment to protecting jobs security, etc.

in the military, -- but what i'm getting at is the difficulty within the military as well as in civilian life in terms of the military-industrial complex, to adapt to the new demands in terms of the army. theodore wilson: this is the best prepared military force in history, there's no question. it is a force that has made use of all of the armed services made use of increases in technology and a very effective way. partly, that is because of the shift from manpower to the technology support, or men and women power. partly, for understandable reasons, it is the reflection of the longtime american aversion.

there is this effort for all the good reasons, to try to ensure that the guy writing -- riding in a humvee, if he goes over an iud, is going to survive. one of the problems has been in recent years, there has been a difficulty in getting training personnel, especially junior officers, to sign up for tours. there are efforts to try to deal with that by providing bonuses and other kinds of mechanisms

that typically one would find in the business world. >> thank you very much. [applause] we will see you next time. >> considered underrated by many first lady historians, caroline harrison was an accomplished artist who took up china painting and carried that interest to the white house establishing its china collection. she was interested in women's issues and helped raise funds for johns hopkins university on the condition that it admit women.

she was the first president general of the daughters of the american revolution until she died in the white house from tuberculosis. caroline harrison on c-span's original series, "first ladies: influence an image," examining the public and private lives of the women who filled the position of first lady and their influence on the presidency romp martha washington to michelle obama. sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span3. >> each week, american history tv's "reel america" brings you archival films to archive the story of the 20th century. >> hawaii is swept by campaign fever. it's the former territory's first election as a state with 81 offices open and hotly contested from the legislature to the governorship. candidates for governor are republican william s grimm and democrat john burns.

hawaii's voters are faced with the first opportunity to participate in the nation's government and responded with a record ballot cast by 93% of those eligible. winners of the top post -- governor william quinn republican and a roman catholic. the gop and democrats each control one house of the legislature. result generally reflects hawaii 's melting pot of very races and religions. elected to congress, the first japanese american, and outstanding war hero, and daniel in a way -- daniel inoue. as the first asian ever elected to the senate, hiram fong, chinese. >> you are watching american history tv, 48 hours of programming on american history every weekend on c-span3.

follow us on twitter for information on our schedule of upcoming programs and to keep up with the latest history news. >> next, university of michigan professor and author pamela bradwein explains some of the federal court cases that attended to uphold rights for freed slaves in the southern slaves -- in the southern states. justice ginsberg: tonight's lecturer is professor pamela brandwein. she earned her master's and doctoral degrees in sociology from northwestern. she is a highly regard