neutrality and policymaking. >> when it item is presented to the commissioner, that document should be made available publicly. i think that would provide an opportunity for everybody to comment on exactly what we are thinking. it would allow people to hone in on issues that we consider problematic. right now we have people that raise concerns, but they often do not know what is being put forward. that is problematic, from my point of view. i would rather people not spent time on things that do not need attention. >> "the communicators" monday night. >> next, west virginia university professor krystal frazier examines the simulation -- circulation of

goods and people from the north to south. the emmett till case is highlighted. prof. frazier: good afternoon. welcome back. thank you for paying attention to the e-mails that i sent out. they were reminders about your papers. we are fortunate to have this collection of newspapers. be sure to use those. just because it is a black paper in the south, it does not count for your southern majority paper. remember that. please pay attention to the of that coming out. the gospel choir concert is april 23rd. that can count as a cultural immersion activity.

you can consider that one, and remember to ask me about the ones you have in mind. you did a lot of good work over spring break and answering your questions. we will talk about that today and talk about emmett till. i want to back up to where we were before spring break. we were talking about the world and vibrance created. we know the great migration happens around world war i. we talk about all the ways that we can learn about the world and why people are migrating. we talk about terrorism and problems trying to find jobs and steady work. we can see the images here of young children.

knowing that it is the case that children are moving with their families. this comes from the new york public library. there was a motion talking about african-american movements. people are traveling via trains going north, to get to places like cleveland, ohio, which is called "alabama north." in these new migrant communities that are called black woodchopper leaves -- metropolis . we are able to get things like "ebony magazine," and we see spaces like black churches and the new black voting block so that politicians have to pay attention to african-americans that have voting power in ways that they did not have when they were in the south. when we look at this book, there

is a good moment to understand what happens in the second wave of the migration. he is born in 1945. he gives us a portrait of life inside african-american communities internal moments within the moment of segregation so that we can understand what is happening through the 1940's and 1950's. with the second wave of the migration, we get higher numbers of people moving out of the rural south so that we can get a portrait of life where people are leaving these spaces where they are having to work in agriculture, or other areas that are not very profitable. listen to this number, the statistic. in 1940, the beginning of the second wave, there is a much

smaller number of african-americans working outside of agriculture that we see in 1941. there is 20% of black men working in agricultural labor. by 1945, that number goes up to 41%. that is quite the difference when you think of the number of people going. we get cities like detroit where the number of black people quadruple. that is a large number. while there are people going away, and there are many people going away, those who are in the south are still affected by migration. b are going to take a moment to look deep into these families to think about what the world is like for children who are in communities where they have been affected by migration.

let's talk about what else the author shows us. we hear a lot about this term "congregation." turning inward to strengthen african-american institutions and people. tell me, what are some examples of the practice of congregation in the memoir? carlo? , the ame -- >> the ame church. prof. frazier: prof. frazier: the african-american methodist at the civilian church. very much show. -- very much so. he shows is not just the spiritual aspect but the cultural aspect. what else?

>> wenzhou lewis, i think it was, was fighting, they gathered around and talked about -- prof. frazier: so, it was not just home with your own radio. everyone came together and were excited. why were they excited? what does this represent? i have from north carolina and grew up liking duke, which is a bit sacrilegious to like duke and chapel hill at the same time . people thought it was crazy, but i did not go to duke or chapel hill. it is not like the same kind of strong connection that people had to joe louis. what is the connection? why do people care about joe louis? what does he represent for them?

>> rachel out left -- racial uplift. prof. frazier: sure. it is an image of an african-american doing well. what else? nicole? >> when his mom was basically on her deathbed, they were all in the house, rattling around, talking about the good old days, and waiting there with her as she passed. prof. frazier: this is a grandmother who raised him. you see this relationship with people who are not just in his nuclear family. this extended unit. it is a really rich narrative. we know it is a story that

people can read -- elementary school children read this neighborhood. let me ask you this. what is missing in the story? what don't we really here from him? what are some elements that are lacking? >> i would say that balance is missing. prof. frazier: we talked a lot about racial terrorism across the south. there is not much of a depiction of that. we do not hear him talking about racialized terrorism. if he is for in 1945, then we can bet that he is alive when emmett till is murdered.

he is about 10 when emmett till is killed. people talk about emmett till being very important to the start of the civil rights movement, but we will be discussing for much of the rest of the semester. we have been building up to our appreciation of the civil rights movement. we have been talking about movements when we study the new negro movement and talked about garvey, the renaissance. we have been talking about a buildup to the civil rights movement. there are many that will talk about emmett till's murder

as they decision to work for justice. but, in the narrative, why do you think he is not talking about racialized violence? what is his goal in doing that? >> sh showing there were good times to be had, it was not all bad all the time. prof. frazier: right. he is showing to show -- try to show it portrait that is not commonly known or depicted. but, it means there is more research for us to do. we know the case is that violence is a significant part of the experience of the people in the segregated south. when emmett till is killed, his death is something that is made

very public. his mother in her bravery held an open casket funeral for him. 50,000 people coming to the funeral. to see his body. it is a magazine based in chicago that publishes this picture. people are able to see this around the world. there are newspapers that are trying to show how the united states is a troubled place in the middle of the cold war 1955. things are looking good for the united states internationally, and african-american activists play on that. we can see in this bottom picture here, a protest that happens in new york in october. it is not just people in the south.

his mother is able to do what she does because she is an chicago. she is able to put pressure because of the insistence of black politicians and the media space that comes out of chicago and migration. a sociologist, who is also a movement veteran, part of the student nonviolent a coordinating committee, from mississippi talks about the young people who come of age and decide to become acted as a result of what happened with emmett till. that cannot be all of the story. there are other parts of their lives and experiences. what we will do is use history his murder as a window in

which we can explore african-american family life. that is my area of personal research, look at african-american families. i think it is the case the african american families need to be listed among the other institutions such as black schools are black churches that are part of how we understand the roots of the civil rights movement. we will look at his back story. what happened after his death and and back to his death. we will turn and look just at his life and the family world in which he was raised. we will look at some people stories, and think about the fact that emmett till's family is part of a collective that create a trance regional system. the families are in more than one place. some of you may go home for the

summer to visit relatives, or like me, i will travel to south carolina over the easter holiday. i'm so excited. i want to go to the beach. yes, be happy for me. i will bring some sand back for you. my family is in south carolina. i'm born and raised in charlotte, north carolina. lots of times in the summer, we go to south carolina to visit my grandparents. this is an old tradition. my parents didn't send me home, much for the same reason for parents not sending their kids home in a 1920's. i'm not quite that old. there is this image of an old train to think about people charlie. this is an image that we analyze prior to spring break. these migrants are on their way to chicago. i what you to think about emmett

till's family. we know his grandfather migrated in 1924. he went up to chicago -- the chicago area. it was a sleepy town, they said. it got the nickname "little mississippi." he found a job at the core product refinery. he called his family. we talked about this chain migration. he said to them, come on up. this is emmett till's grandmother and mother. she is born in mississippi but raised in chicago. in chicago, she meets lewis sttill, emmett's father. emmett till is born in 1941.

he is a baby boomer. people born during the time of world war ii. his family is a part of this microworld -- migrant world. they moved to chicago, and he is raised in chicago, raised until he is killed, but he is a chicago kid. just like other migrants, he knows things about the south and learns things about the self from the family members who are from the south. he actually visited the south before his fatal trip. he had done so as a toddler. he did not have the mirror that, but he had migrants around him all the time. there are lots of mississippi people there. he also learn from people and his family. his mother would talk to him about the south. she grew up visiting chicago and there were lots of things in chicago that were similar to the

south and lots of things that were distinct. one in particular is a really rich church community. she goes to the church of god in christ, where his grandmother was a founding member. you read about him saying that she took it relatives, friends and relatives, and even some people that they did not know. that is what they did. she said it was the sort of underground railroad. think about all the stories that you would hear of people escaping rationalized -- racialized violence. many people found that the promised land was not as promising as what they hoped. i call that "jack crow," the northern version of jim crow. emmett would have learned things

about the south, but as his mother said, he could not know in the same way the other southern children did. let's look at some -- when we think about this network, we can look at sylvia's. have you ever been? ms. sylvia is from hemingway south carolina, a small town. you read this in my article about her mother, how her mother migrated. her mother was from york, and what she was gone, sylvia and her sisters stayed with her grandmother. her mother leaves because her father dies. sylvia is only six months old. she goes to new york to work and send some money home so that they can expand their property.

then she comes home, and when she is home, sylvia is older. she had spent some time in new york and learning beauty. she meets someone to marry, and then her mother takes care of sylvia's children for some time while her husband and her set up "sylvia's." sylvia is only able to do that because of her mother's assistance. and, her mother was only able to do what she did for the family -- she was not leaving because she was tired of the rough life -- she was trying to make a better life for her family. her goal is not necessarily even to get out of the south, but rather to make where she is a space that is viable for her completely. she leaves and goes north, and we see this network expanding

and this pattern repeated in that sylvia is able to do that herself and build this empire. children, then, i really central to the economic independence that we see these families built . when we observe them, "get a portion of african-american life that is more complex than that of simply a set of parents and their children. if we're going to understand the way the african american families are working, then we need to look at this in extra-nuclear context. we see this intergenerational connection, and people who are not necessarily living in that same household. let's look at a few other

examples. clyde brown is a famous author -- claude brown is a famous author. in a memoir, he talks about his experiences with truancy as a young child in york. this is of a very powerful that the court system even recognize they could send children home. one reason that parents might send it kids prof. frazier: send -- might send kids home during the summer is to keep them out of trouble. he hated it, he did not let the food. he did not like working in the sun. he confirmed what he assumed about the migrants that he knew. he thought they were in, backwards and that his parents mine were stuck in the cotton fields of south carolina.

on the other hand, we have charles, pictured in the last, singing with the sncc's fingers. he is from tennessee. he talks about not being too impressed, and how he appreciated the independence that his family had, and that they were led land owners and able to have more freedom than the people he knew in the north. this is true for another man abraham, from georgia who says the same thing. he felt like his cousins were always working for somebody. he felt that his community was more involved with entrepreneurial activities. it is not such a one-sided thing where the south is bad in the

north is good. remember, i told you we would look of the complexities of that. when you look at african-american families in this kind of way, we can see more of that story. we will come back to this in a second. i think these two examples are interesting because congressman john lewis, who you have probably seen a lot in the news with the recent anniversary of the selma march. he is one of the elders still around that participated in the protest. congressman lewis is from alabama. in choi, alabama, he went to school with a principal who was his uncle. he had uncles who migrated to buffalo, new york. these articles used to come home, and when they did so, they would share with him all these experiences and made him see

the north as this magical place. he was really intrigued, so his uncle takes him north. they go and visit. he sees things that changes his mind and shapes how he sees alabama. he says, i cannot really see alabama in the same way. he encounters that not on a business trip or future, but really in the space of his family, the people who are flesh of his flesh, look like me and they are encountering life in this way, whereas i'm encountering get in a different way. i think another story is really interesting wel as well. what state is she from? louisiana. she is from louisiana. her cousin, barbara, what's to come visit her.

barbara's caretaker is saying, no way. why did they say you can go? because the north is supposed to be better? my fingers are making quote sciigns. school is out, it sounds really good. emmett till said he wanted to go south, he was going to stay with his uncle. it is logical. what is the answer? kevin? >> he didn't want her to have the experience of the north similar to one of the ladies --

they figure that she was to outspoken and she might get killed. prof. frazier: that is what they say that carolyn. you can't go down because you will get in trouble down there because you won't know how to behave. her cousin barbara, they don't want her to come north because what will happen to her? you are onto something. say it again. she might get uppity. >> there was a certain culture and the south that you had to i hear to -- adhere to. going north, they learn to have this language that did not appreciate the south anymore its culture. prof. frazier: let's unpack some of what you said there. isthere is his expectation of how you are supposed to behave

in the south. they do not want barbara to go north and get in her mind that she can act like carol and everyone that she can and counter, and take it to the south, and be in this unsafe space. there are african americans in the south who are bucking the system the whole time. they say, you will get out there and get in trouble. and, this concept of naacp -- we know this quote comes from clarence strider, a sheriff who is in charge and runs the trial for the murder case of emmett till. his quote is where i got the title for the article that you read. in his mind, black people did not think about what was going on in the south. they were content until they went somewhere else and had outside agitators giving these

ideas that something was wrong with white supremacy, and something was wrong with oppression. they did not need the assistance . we know that is nott accurate. that is part of the dynamic shaping the children. when carolyn sees these cases unfold on tv, she has a new sensitivity. she is able to think about them in a way that connects them, not just to another child, but a person in her family. you think about it. when you lose a loved one it hurts more than one maybe someone else loses a loved one. you can feel sorry for them, but when it is your family especially her child, the index can be quite severe. she is able to think about what is happening in a way and her family. it shapes who she

these are two southerners with a powerful understanding of what happened. she grew up in mason, oklahoma. an all-black town. she has family in texas in a predominantly black area of san antonio. she goes to boston later in life in the 1970's and talks about how in boston it was the most dangerous thing she encountered. she grows up and she was -- people were often afraid. they were made to feel afraid because of the violence they encountered. when she learned about emmett till's death it wasn't particularly riveting. it was rather something that was in a pattern.

it was not as if you were a northern person not exposed to those dangers and was unaware. she grew up knowing in the same another the case for mr. cotton here. he grew up in mississippi where -- home of oprah and home of macarthur cotton. when he grows up there he is also in this taste -- this place where violence is always occurring. they did not really have fantasy ideas about the north. they also came from --they were people who were activists. when the spellman family migrates because her finally -- go to greensboro north carolina. and the getty connecticut. it is in connecticut where she encounters

black people not too keen on the struggle. who do not have the same kind of critique of society that she was cultivated to create as a child growing up in the south. all these and people are part of the till. -- generation. dr. george ladner. recognize his name? he is the author of your textbook. he is a sociologist. dr. horton is a historian. they came together through the struggles and dr. horton notes that in the case of emmett till's murder -- >> he highlighted -- to not only

devote his life to being an academic but further himself to the cause and the movement? prof. frazier: specifically he talked about trying to understand what could be the case to create this space where a child could be murdered in this way. he is trying to figure it out. he says let me try to get this. ladner says that when emmett till was killed something rattled in her. seat about the north had a different experience and admit for her if this can happen to a child for the north it can happen to anyone of us. lewis says it just kind of knockdown all the excitement i had from the brown decision which was 1954. and it just happened. we talked about the trauma of the year 1892. 296

when lynchings. the elation of saying for many people to say the federal government is on the case and we are going to fight this and we know that desegregation efforts are not just about let's getting everyone in the u.s. to sit around and hold hands with rather citizens try to get full access to the rights that should come a citizenship. full access to citizenship. for freedom of being. expression and self-determination. when this case happened on the supreme court level he was really excited. but it just kind of smashes him if this young child can be killed in this kind of way. and these murderers get these reports and they say we

have to get the chicago out of him. get the chicago out. so these people say they are going to employ themselves in this fight. i think they had some of -- somewhat of a unique perspective in this kind of second-generation migrants. they enter a world of migrants. they are listening to the conversations of people who are transplants. much like you might have friends who are second-generation nigerian or second-generation polish. is a different perspective than what their parents may have. we know they are connected to their families and different reasons. when people don't migrate, they

leave their families behind all the time. sometimes that happens. talbert says that. what does he say? would you write for? it? morgan? >> he would always have a place to go to kind of escape. but on the other side it is like his family will go there and not come back. prof. frazier: you have some cases of people who are going and the effort is to go away. some people get lost in the mix. and in the case of spellman she had family migrated from oklahoma-texas area out to california. they were part of the divine movement and in that movement they chose their names. they did not come back into her world until recent years and her daughter was married. they

invited -- they were invited to the wedding after the family was contacted and introduced themselves again. they were then able to reconnect. migration can send people far away and never be a part of lives again. but we also see the circulation that james gregory talks about. this recirculation of items like i love when i can go to new york and quebec with my cool whatever i got in fashion and come back to charlotte and visit family members. i have family there to travel and bring stuff back. that is something we can think of today. for this time period, to look at these migration networks and looking at a child in 1950's, what a child is able

to access in mississippi as opposed to chicago could be very different. maybe there is materials that they want to have access to the family never has to bring back. those little items. what else circulates in this migration world? >> newspapers. prof. frazier: news is circulating. the circulation of ideas, thoughts, activities. you get exposure of a new way of thinking. and then what else? when we were in class last we listened to "move on up a little higher." now, "in the upper room." the old woman singing gospels. it is a product of this migration moment, right? music

comes out of this migration r ight? what had a music in particular goes in the making -- yes, what to the blues look like? wise a part of the migration project? >> the majority of the southern blues comes from field songs gospel church songs and after the great migration a lot of these artists like muddy waters moved to chicago and he got electrified in chicago clubs and it turned into a different type of music. acoustic stuff. prof. frazier: that is what we can work with. later electric guitars and not just acoustic guitars. maybe they did not have electricity where you work mississippi so you had a style

of music that was born and a new experience in chicago. he brought a lot of the old experience with you and that helped to create this world that can birth this kind of music. so we get to jackson and she sings "in the upper room" with a background that is riveting in which he begins to the background part in the basing the lead part, it's a remix. that is a part of heidi get the music you have today with all the remixing. it started in this migration moment. what else in terms of ideas come out of this migration? yes? we have items ideas. i say there is another 'i'. we do have financial

institutions. we talked about whole church is moving. and support for organizations that are working in the south getting funding from the north. what else? we have been talking about them. individuals. yes. individuals are moving. if you look at the preston family we have a mama living in the south and others living in the north and the kids would move up a little while and then back to the south again. this movement of individuals. with is this me for identity? i don't know that a claim that with all those i's. ideas come individuals, how does it shape identity? is in it --emmett till

southern? they were from chicago. when you raise your hand is a you are from charleston, west virginia and some people consider it the south. and i know because i'm a real southerner from north carolina. is a debatable? i saw her shake his head. one? -- why? >> even if she resides in chicago she brings all the pack in terms of the south and experience and he is immersed in that. if he is in mississippi they are bringing all that baggage from jim crow and slavery up with them to then molded into this new northern experience. prof. frazier: what is the baggage? >> institutionalized violence. prof. frazier: the impact of what happened to them and you said tradition. traditions don't

necessarily have to be baggage and baggage does that have to necessarily be baggage. you bring the collective of whoever you are to the new space. are they northern or are they not more than? private northerners now? emmett till's cousins who are your age? are they northerners? >> when it did go down and he lived with a white woman he was killed. i think he was not raised to know that that was bad. where he lived and grew up he had a white girlfriend or he was mixed with white people. when he did go down to the south he did not know. he was insulated from other racism. prof. frazier: when you say the white girlfriend, even though he did not have one, he could've known one? where it was not as big video --

as big a deal? he said that made him more than. remember when i also said -- anything else? all right. remember when i said before we don't have to live in either or./or. we saw chuck in that picture. she said you don't have to do that. you don't have to have either/or. maybe it is not just one of the other. maybe there is a lot going on. till's mother said she prepared him with the talk. she said this is summer camp or our kids. it's a summer camp as they are going to get so we're going to take them and talk to them and what did she tell him? >> [indiscernible]

they are not the same they are in chicago. he had to watch himself. he liked to talk. he did not grew up in the atmosphere of not being able to talk to white women. he grew up in an atmosphere where people were integrated in it was not such a big deal if they talked to a white woman for a white man. prof. frazier: but he had some freedom that maybe his counterparts did not have in the south. if that is the case for this question of identity, you might think of himself as a northerner or maybe not as keen on thinking about it. his mother said in this little one horse

town in mississippi is not have the same kinds of markers that you are familiar with. we started our semester and we talked about the ways to break down segregation and to not just think about whites-only, colored only bathrooms and water fountains. let us say it all together now. when we think about jim crow we're not to think about segregation. we are also thinking about congregation. and what we think about separation, we're also thinking about subordination. we are not just looking at black and white people being kept from one another. but rather this effort to basically reinforce to

say that people are under. that goes back to what was expected of a young man like emmett till more thoughts on that identity piece.? will be looked at how he was the right people in the south how did they see him when he goes? >> just kind of wild eyed kid. he just did not know how to deal with being in the south. he had these ideas that he could talk to anyone he wanted to. he did not grow up feeling that he had to be segregated to the people he talked to. he did not quite understand that. that was the one thing that separated his identity. i think you really understood, all i don't know if

you give it a whole lot of thought. it was no big deal. prof. frazier: let's go back to charles over here. you say not that big a deal of how he was thinking about himself in these ways. >> that are not too many -- with a concrete sense of identity that we might want to retroactively impose some kind of significance on it. i don't think he actually had a conception of what that meant. prof. frazier: his mother said that there children in the south have do something -- have something deep in their consciousness for understanding their place in the south. maybe we can frame it in a different way. because even if they are not thinking about them selves in terms of using the word

identity, how do they understand themselves? what does and moody say? she grows up in mississippi and is troubled. she is very troubled by these discussions that are around your after the murder of till she hears. adults being quite about the discontent and the horror and the anger. she said that is one i began to hate white people for what they did and black people for what she saw not doing much about it. she has an awareness and she is kind of oblivious. to nasa think about things. we have these young people for not having themselves out loud self-concept is kind of average 14-year-old. it's that kind of freedom. is that something that people in the violent areas of the south are afforded? whenever we talked about baptisms? when these young people are having to recognize

their space in the social hierarchy really early. babies a lot of them. my nieces are little. i would hate for them to have to have this kind of awareness. maybe we can deal with less concrete terms and identity. an awareness of what it needs to be in that kind of space. what does that do there for some of these young people who are like emmett our carefree? is mama said she knew what he was talking about. i notice a yes ma'am and know certain i will be polite and i won't do this. but he did not have the kind of consciousness that some of his cohorts had. many children went home to their families homes in the south and were not abused in the same kind of way. and they were plenty

aware of what they should do and not do. they would not have done what he did. some of that can be his personality that we can all agree that it's difficult for a child have that kind of fault. even his uncle pleads with the murderers and says could you maybe just rough him up or he learned his lesson. we understand. that is not how that works out. let's talk a little bit more about the young people who are little sized in this moment -- politicized in this moment. who are now forced to think about themselves when they had not thought about themselves. what of those examples? >> i think it was it happened to a kid from the north. if again happen to a kid from up there it happened to anyone down south.

ignorance will not protect you. being a child without protective. prof. frazier: what about the being a child part? i give you some background in the article. do you remember, nicole? is he seen as a child? >> [indiscernible] no, i don't think so. prof. frazier: i think you are right. how is he viewed? >> they are acting like he is a grown man, threatening their territory or way of life. he is not afforded the status of a child. definitely not. prof. frazier: he is not seen as a child. he is seen as this kind of man figure. we talked about the photo, the stereotypes and

architects that are shaking -- shaping the way african-americans are seen. lots of her rapist myth and we have to protect our white womanhood. you don't get to come down here and act like that and think that is going to be weight to make it ok for you to behave. so then this makes other people outside the south have to ask this question of who am i? and it makes them have to think about what they're going to do and what they're going to be. when) till is killed and carolyn season and carolyn is an indiana having header cousin barbara visits. she understands that it could've been somewhat and her family. is not just that this is

a child my age or this could have been my cousin. it could've been someone i know. it could have been someone close to me. it could of been me. -- have then me. they gives an understanding of how this group of people comes to work. i am not arguing that there is no civil rights movement without the murder of till. but i think emmett till becomes a name because there are other people who died. when they are dragging for the bodies of james chaney and andrew goodman in 1964 they find other bodies that come up south of the river. people who just go missing or supposedly went away are trying to leave. their bodies are in the river

and there is a whole song that talks about ♪ in the mississippi river and the mississippi river ♪ i can do my usual singing with this voice i'm sorry. they talk about all the bodies coming out of the river. now they tell us it's not an anomaly. he is not the only person to be killed. cap radel people in particular ways. -- it rattled people in particular was. even though he grows up in philadelphia and later joins he talks about knowing about atrocities across the south and that when till happened, he is in philadelphia. when the case happens it does not necessarily bring us something surprising to him. he

grew up in philadelphia with migrant family that parents from virginia. what is the concept of his place where he learns about politics and can critique thi ngs.? the barbershop. the partnership is -- the barbershop is it on your list of immersive experiences. don't go in there and say i'm in my african-american history class but you can go and experience the glimmer of what we are talking about. i love the barbershop. the people are like the people we studied history. all kinds of dignitaries and non-dignitaries and al qaeda working-class people in business professional people. you got a lawyer in the shoeshine man. you got the pastor and the prophet man from the court. they are sitting around and there are

lots of different migrants and their talking. he is listening because he is a youngster. he is listening to the conversation. he learns about the south from that world. the south is not something foreign to him. hall she is a part of the movement and she does work with movements but she had not gone south. she said i knew southerners because any of their family members. i have seen them in my father's church. i knew the south. those people were maybe still southerners. and i have lived in new jersey for eight years and i was in rochester where they say the snow was made. and i am real southern on my sleeve. i try to work in my accent. but i wonder if there is a point when the people become northern. what is that happened? or does that happen? to southerners just

remain southern? people work hard to leave their heritage behind. that might require cutting off your family. you cannot go home anymore. going back to how these young people are politicized. it can't just be about the moment of till but this broader concept of these trans regional families. we have people like mr. cleveland sellers who is now the president of voorhees college. he used to be -- he was from denmark, south carolina. he talked about till. he is from the uppers of in that area is not a heavy area for lots of activity where he was from. he says till riveted him. it shocked him. there was

another reason why even among people who were aware of racial atrocities and it seems kinds of things, who are not surprised it happened. i don't think we want to be desensitized to our murder or death anytime it happens. people are saddened and i like, wow, that happened. what is another thing that makes his story so powerful and poignant. what is another reason that we have it have such a big effect? >> it made a lot of newspapers. prof. frazier: it may newspapers and those really matter. maybe there were some tv clips. the media part really matters. it is not the same kind of exposure of other people that have been killed and other places of the south. they are not getting the same kind of exposure and the impact cannot be as broad. that

is why i told you i think the way migration is important to how what we call the civil rights movement unfolding in the ways that it does. we get these in the south and outside the south. it helps to nationalize the movement, a movement that is already a national movement. there are people who are affected by what is happening in the south outside of the south. and there are plenty of places of segregation in the north that are what we call de facto. not legalized places but in practice. like the southside of chicago were african americans were forced to take housing because they were not able to get a loan. they will not rent to black people in these places. restricted codes and ways to excludes them them from what their

white migrant counterparts were able to do. in many other white counterparts go home. it creates for us this world where children 's political sensitivities are being heightened and shaped within the family context. i think that helps us to think about how we can appreciate african-american families write a long time session -- right along side schools and churches. we have portraits of people having a mass meeting in a church. right? that is easy to see. and we know about -- we're increasingly learning about groups and the work of student activists. and we're getting more of a appreciation for why it might be that elders who we see in these

portraits. why might that be the case? why? >> your elders have experience in the younger generation is trying to change this culture change this world. a lot of them did not grow up in this kind of world. they have no sense of what it is like to be beaten or anything like that. prof. frazier: by the time we get to this cohort of this generation and about five years around emmett till's birth, they are these college-age people. in the 1960's. yes, they get inspiration and they have the fire of youth. if they had not experienced abuses they certainly did in the

movement. this leaves this middle space. working parent kind of people. if you were college-age or high school age, if you do not have -- you have less to risk if you do not have kids, if you do not have a house you have to maintain, if you don't have to make sure you have kid just get -- kicked off the property. this leaves a space for people who are active but maybe not in the same way we have to traditionally appreciated. if you look at they work of some people, one is talking about working people who are fighting and in the movement who also have to be valued for the work that they do. when you talk to movement that's like mr. macarthur cotton, he says, we won't have anything to do like our parents, he won't take credit for the work he did, but he talks to these older generations and i think it is an -- it is important for us to

think about the long civil rights narratives given professor hall provides for us. if you look at organizations that are already known and these spaces and congregations like the beauty shop that tiffany keele gives us. you don't necessarily think about them as movement spaces. when you look at these congregations in these places were african americans congregate. -- you can see ways for the institutions to help us in politics given it might not have been the case that lewis's uncle was thinking about how he was going to shape his nephews thinking. but since he was a principal, he probably has some kind of years -- ideas about thinking about thinking given he might have

just been answering john's call and request when congressman lewis asked to go to new york, but when he takes him, he has to be aware of how that might shape his nephew. right? then john lewis comes back, and he says with the murder i could not continue in that way. i had to make sure i did something different. i had to change things. i could not participate anymore. i could not be the way that i was. we want to think about how many -- in these family spaces. if we think about family as expansive and not just the nuclear network, if we think about how family actually is for many people in these african-american communities extended networks and what i call people who are behaving

like family but are not legal route -- relatives. they gives us another way to analyze what is happening here. we see this when we look at the work of activists. particularly in the 1960's, we have people who are not on the south. people who are not african-american who are coming and living in the homes of that family. -- black families. living in these spaces because there is no power johnson saying they are welcoming all civil rights movements at this you have to deal with people who want to work on voting rights. you can get your room from $50 a night. there is no such thing as that right? there is no welcome wagon. bob moses does not have a parade to say you are going to change u.s. history. that is not happening. right? so they have to be in those spaces that are intrinsic to the community this is a long . tradition of african-americans

working in a family network that are expensive and health to set up what movement activists are able to do. so, when you come back on thursday, because items -- because i am close to time, when i come back on thursday, we're going to explore the civil rights movement and i want you to think about this-the 1950's and 1960's we have been building . up to this discussion. the black freedom struggle and we said that the height in the 1950's and 19 six is as a time when there is a lot of action in the river. this moving river. we're going to build up from here think about it as a family . network. this collective of people that we've been investigating today. then we are going to turn back to after emmett till's death,

knowing we also had the brown decision. we will see a great film on a man named charles hamilton houston. he is one of my favorite people and 50 -- history. i love charles hamilton houston. we will all public about this long civil rights movement narrative. it does not just bring up. so when people even say emmett till was my spark for getting in the movement, i think, listening to their stories and there in -- reading their autobiographies and conducting interviews with them, and listening to their stories, i think that their family structures and their family experiences also have to -- helped to politicize them

even though it is an of important moment. so we're going to move forward and look at how these people and their parents are part of what we see happening in the 1950's and 1960's. how they make that moment of the cold war when we can maximize for justice struggles. so, i want you to read whatever it says on your syllabus and be real sure that you seriously consider my comments to you about your papers. i am looking forward to them. don't you think the proposal was really, really valuable? i would say so. it helps you to see what i want you to do and it helps you not here off and do something else. -- veer off and do something else. so, thank you for all your good attention and good work. any questions? all right, i will see you.

>> you are watching american history tv. 48 hours of programming on american history every weekend on c-span three. follow us on twitter. further information on our schedule of upcoming programs and keep up with the latest history news. >> monday on "the communicators." michael o'rielly on key issues before the sec like that he telling, regulating the internet, and the public influence on policy meeting. >> when an item is made for an open commission meeting and is presented to the commissioner level, that document should be made available publicly. i think it would provide an opportunity for everyone to know exactly what we are thinking. we want people to: it on issues we see is problematic. we have people who raise concerns regarding our items but they often don't know exactly what is being put forward.