would you say? is it a cathartic experience for them? >> i think it can be. it runs a wide gamut of emotions and reactions, as you would expect. some people have told their stories over and over and over again. they have made it a point to go into schools, to give speeches where they discuss their experiences. for some this is the first time that they are really opening up about it. and it's a very delicate area for most people, as it would be with such a dramatic event. >> are the speakers primarily survivors and are they primarily people who have already given an oral history? >> yes. they are survivor volunteers and all have provided oral history to the museum as well. >> how do you think the oral histories overall have enhanced our understanding of what

happened during the holocaust? >> i think the oral testimony in general can act as a powerful complimentary and complicating factor to or perspective to more traditional primary sources such as documents. historians in the past have been hesitant or weary of using testimony as a primary source. i think that has changed a lot over the years. and that historians are realizing the incredible value and utility of this lived history. it may not be -- it may contradict the historical narrative. but it certainly complicates it and adds layers to it. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> my name is kurt klein. i was born july 2nd, 1920.

in a town called waldorf, which is very close heidelberg in germany. >> tell me about your parents and your family. >> well, i grew up in the post world war i era. of course those were really difficult times. and my parents were struggling to get along during this economic chaos that existed during those times. you may remember there was this very serious inflation. ludicrous in a sense, such as has never been seen before or sens sense. i believe that made it very difficult to carry on in anything at all.

my father had a business made extremely difficult because of the economic conditions that existed after world war i. he was a broker for hops and tobacco and grain that he would buy from the farmers that lived in the town we lived in. and he -- and my mother helped him all she could. and of course they, along with so many others, were just struggling to exist in those days. but still you might say i grew up in a middleclass family. of course after going to elementary school in this town,

it was expected that i would go to high school in heidelberg. really it was then perhaps on a somewhat higher level than high school. but those were of course already quite eventful times. and i grew up amid all of this chaos of the different parties, of the republic fighting each other. and from my earlier childhood on somewhat the formation of the nazi party and how they gradually gained strength. and there were early on perhaps times when one didn't take them all that seriously. but it soon became apparent that they were a force to be reckoned

with. >> in your life, tell me about how this affected you. >> well, it affected me in the sense that later on, especially when people were won over by the nazis, they no longer were our friends or neighbors, as we had were been used to it. and it also represented an ominous threat. because early on hitler and all the others made it quite clear how they felt about the jews and what they would be doing to the jews. but it also meant that sometimes -- you would see all of these slogans on the walls.

many of them directed against jews. so you have a feeling, even earlier on that you were truly being singled out. you hardly knew for what reason. but you knew that all of this prop began dan was directed against you. and it made it difficult at times to carry on because you obviously -- in my father's case, i don't know the details but you couldn't do business with people who felt that way. nevertheless, things were still more or less all right until hitler actually came to power. but i could see that the nazi party was gaining strength quicker than the others.

but actually nobody believed that they were capable of doing the things which, in fact, it turned out they later did. >> did you lose friends because of this atmosphere? >> once hitler was in power. i don't remember losing any earlier. but once hitler was in power, there was a gradual alienation from the rest of my schoolmates. some of them were better than others. but many of them initially apologized for some of the things that hitler said he was going to do, assuring us that he of course didn't mean people like us. my parents or our friends. and then gradually you could almost see the direct relation of their in doctrination of the hitler youth of how much more

hostile they became until, in the end they stopped talking altogether. or they might perhaps taunt you. even then it was well-known there were concentration camps. and they would say things to the effect that if you behave you might be all right. but if you don't, watch out. you might all wind up in concentration camps. after which they of course didn't -- i mean, long before then they had stopped associating with you. at first these people had been in my house constantly. and i had been in their homes. and they had eaten in our home. and i ate in theirs. but there was really no difference. i grew up considering myself a part of that scene.

never thinking that i was going to be singled out for something like this. and i saw the gradual evolution of how all of this changed. it was be willedering to someone grow up amid the turmoil of that period. >> what was high school -- tell me about what kinds of things did you do as a young boy? >> well, i -- actually, i did all the things that any young man does or likes. i engaged in sports, just as the others did. i liked soccer. i liked books quite a bit. that helped me later. also, when i was sort of shut

off from the outside world. but even early on i liked books. and i belonged to an organization of young jewish young people. we went on hikes very often, mountain climbing, swimming, skiing. we did all the things that young people do. liked movies a great deal. american movies in those days were quite popular. and i read books also by american authors. i remember such things as jack london and mark twain, of course. huck finn. i did all of those things. in that sense i had a normal

upbringing. and later on when all the other boys turned away from me and there were very few jewish friends in the town that i lived in. there was nobody exactly my age. but there were some other boys close to me. but no more than two or three. the rest of my jewish friends i found in heidelberg, which was of course large enough to have a larger jewish population. and that to some extent made up for my not being able to associate with anybody in the town in which i lived. and i have some very fond memories, for instance, of this organization that i mentioned of going off into the mountains and going hiking. sometimes for a few day trips. staying in youth hostels overnight.

those are all things that sort of made my formative years quite interesting. and to some extent enjoyable. and that went on even after the nazis came to power. but it stopped when i was approximately 14. at that point my father was no longer able to send me to high school which required tuition. so it was thought best that for jewish young people at the time it was quite common to learn a trade. and so i thought about what i would like to be. and since i had always liked books i chose printing as my vocation.

and i did, in fact, get a job in printing in the town where i lived. in fact, it was on the same street where i lived. and this man was quite willing to take me on. and i worked there for a number of months. and then the authorities heard about it and made it impossible for him to keep me on. so then i had to stop that. and i later on worked for a jewish firm that was still in existence at that time which was a tobacco factory where they actually made cigars. and i found some sort of a job until the time that i in fact, left germany. but it was becoming more and

more evident that jews should leave if anybody at all would have them. and not very many countries would have them. it wasn't quite that easy. but especially young people. it was suggested for young people to leave because there was obviously no future for them in germany. and so we too came to that conclusion. and since we had some relatives in the states seem to be a natural place to go. in retrospect, i know that must have saved my life. my sister, who was older than i was in nurse's training in germany. she also decided of course that

it was time to leave. and as someone vouched for her and so she came here a year ahead of me. and had she not been here i would not have gotten out. because she was able to go after people and ask them for the necessary papers that one needed in those days, an affidavit of support. . so she did that for me. so that by 1937 i was able to leave also and come to buffalo. at that time my sister lived and so did various other relatives. among them an uncle and aunt and their daughter, whose house i then stayed the first few years when i came to buffalo.

i also was able after a couple of weeks to find a job in printing again so that i could continue that training. and that is in fact, what i made my career. there were of course -- when i was still in germany, you could see the gradual more and more repressive measures of jews. the thing that i remember so well is being in school and having to attend -- it was mandatory. to attend at these propaganda

films that revenstahl did in those days. and i still them vividly. i could see it firsthand how films like that affected the young and how they questioned obedience to the nazi cause. but everybody was affected by them. the older people too. and you could see that the more that this propaganda worked on them the more they believed it. i remember attending such films or listening to the speeches on the radio. and i was a teenager then.

wondering how did i ever get into this position. i don't know such people as they described. and i -- how is this possible? and how is it possible to have all of this venom directed at you when, in fact, you haven't done a thing and you just lived a peaceful life. my parents were simply law-abiding citizens who were struggling to get along in a very difficult economy. and that of course was very, very puzzling to me. but the point i was trying to make was that the nazis knew there was no one else how to use the power of the media to sway people's opinions. radio had come into its own during my early childhood. and they used that for

propaganda purposes as no one else had before or since. and that's however they were able to sway people and get them to do the things they did. >> okay. let's move forward now. you had been talk building you in buffalo. >> right. well, in buffalo, i was in printing. and i gradually improved myself a little. i found some other jobs in printing. and i of course at that point from then on both my sister and i were trying to make it possible for our parents to follow us.

i had an older brother who came to the states about a year after i did. although he initially settled down. and i forget the exact sequence. first in new york, then in boston, and back in new york again i believe is how it was. and we of course tried very hard to get our parents and follow us. but those were difficult times here also. and it was not easy to get the necessary papers for my parents. at least it was difficult to convince anybody that there was any immediate urgency about getting them out. the answer usually was, yes, in due time. after you have established

yourself you will see them also. they will follow you. and so while we continuously worked on it, it really nothing that much happened. and until really until november '38. then people began to take some notice. and of course there was absolute panic among the jews in germany about getting out. unfortunately, my parents hesitated a little too long about registering at the american consulate in s tri ck guard. she had a very high number which made it impossible for them to

contemplate leaving immediately. there were many attempts that we made at the time to have them leave on the basis that we -- the children were asking for them. but as we eventually found out, you needed to be a citizen in order for i believe it was called form 575 or something like that. which meant that some people were allowed in outside the order. but basically they had to adhere to the quota system and the high priority numbers, which of course everybody wanted to get out at the time. so this went on and on. but in each letter it so happens

that i have every letter that my parents ever wrote to me during that period, from the time i left them. and each letter would be full of some news of moral repressive measures that were taking place. so that before, for example, they had written to us that now they had been forced to -- my father had been forced to sell his business. and the nazis had effectively threatened jewish businesses anyway. and had, through their boycott, pointed out to the german population that they ought not to buy from jews or associate with them. and those measures were of course felt in pretty short

order. so that there came a point when my father was forced to sell his business. and a very short time later, also the house that they were in because she simply couldn't keep that up. and after they had already made the arrangements and were telling the house. but the man who bought it was not going to move in until the following spring because he was going to do some renovating. and so it became an agonizing decision for them should they stay in that house throughout the winter largely without heat or income, or should they avail themselves of whatever was offered to them in very run down dilapidated part of the town also. and should they take that while

the taking was still good. this is what they were agonizing over at the point when crystal happened. after that they were under orders to move. all these decisions were taken from their hands. and as it wound up, they moved in with another acquaintance, a jewish lady, the wife of the owner of that cigar factory for which i had worked and where my father had subsequently worked for a little bit in the office when he could no longer have his own business. she had an old house somewhere in another part of the town and they were ordered to move to

what was really above a stable -- it had been a stable. it was not then anymore. and just one room. of course during crystal we were to find out that some of the -- some of my schoolmates, one in particular, had become the leader of this gang of hoodlums who had invaded my parents's house put them up against a wall and proceeded to smash all their furniture and everything they could lay their hands on. and they took my father with them that night. and he had to spend some time in the local jail but was released a few days later probably because of his age.

but that was by far the better part of what happened in crystal. because most men were simply sent to concentration camps. but what i was going to say about the gang that invaded my parents's house, this was then a boy who had been in and out of our home, had eaten at our table. and he let this gang in really making threats towards these elderly people, defenseless people. and treated them in the most abominable manner and vandalized the place. >> you were hearing all of this as it were through the letters you were receiving?

>> yes. . some of them were mailed references that my papers were able to make. but we could usually learn to read between the lines. we knew what they meant when they made references. for instance, they let us know their furniture had been smashed because i still remember my mother used the phrase that they now were possessors of many furniture. all of this was actually confirmed to us by an uncle of mine who was fortunate enough to leave after those times. and because he had a daughter in england and a very influential son-in-law who got them out. and they eventually wound up also coming to buffalo where i

lived and where they had a son. so they were able to fill me in on some of the details of what happened. >> what did you do now? this is after crystal. tell us about you briefly so we can move into the more experienced for you. >> well, i should, however, also mention that we kept on trying by every means to get them out. but at every turn something else happened. and the next thing that happened was in 1940. in the fall of 1940, we received a letter from a relationship in switzerland who informed us --

that he said, you will of course have read the reports in the newspapers of what has happened to your parents, along with all the j with he s of the province of baden and paldamen. and at the local authorities they were told within 20 minutes to two hours to pack up a few things and take along with them. and they were deported to the south of france to a camp a that had at one time served as a refugee camp for the civil war refugees that came from spain. it was the pyrenees and spanish

border. they were simply dumped there without blankets, without adequate food, without anything. and the germans told the french to take over. of course it took a long time until we then established some direct contact with my parents. at first they couldn't write. those things took weeks and weeks in those days. also because there was a war going on already at that time in europe. in '39 of course added to our complications when the war started. we again were setback, incredibly far back, as far as as trying to help them to get

out of there. because known escape routes were out of question. you could only find certain ones. and then only if you had quite a bit of money. they were just for the passage and everything else.. but at any rate, being in the occupied zone of france was at the same time they were selling grated. men were in a different camp than women. but they were usually once a week allowed to visit each other. and of course we got their letters and we wrote to them. we were able to do that. and this is quite a record of what went wrong in those camps.

it was of course a catastrophe that this happened to them. it still made it poblg for them to perhaps get out easier than if they had remained in germany. because they could go to the american consulate in marseille if they were summoned by the consul. they were allowed out of these camps. somehow or another, there was always a flaw, a new complication. and this went with on in an absolutely crass way. at every corner there was another obstacle. and we had passage for them many times. and they had to let those terms expire because the papers

weren't ready. and so they were moved -- my father was sent to another camp, sent to marseille. and so it went on and on. and they could, in fact, with the right papers, have left by way of spain and portugal. we had a portugese ship in passage for them several times. each time something -- they could never get clearance on time. and this went on and on. in the meantime, this was now running into 1942. and by the summer of '42,

actually perhaps five, six is weeks later, one of my letters was returned. from there. address unknown. left no forwarding address. as we found out through a tracing bureau after the war, they were, in fact, deported to auschwitz. along with all the thousands and thousands who were there. this also -- this time was the time when i was inducted in the army. so that it all a happened together. and i recently found a notice

from the state department that reached us in november of '42, a time when i was already in the army that said that they were now pleased to let us know that our parents had gotten clearance. this was three months after they had been deported. to auschwitz. but at any rate, i was inducted in the army. and to me it was a great relief. and also perhaps a source of pride that i was able to finally do something about this. here we had been literally paralyzed for years, always at the rim of the -- whatever authorities were in charge. and now i was finally able to

fight this big evil. and i was in the army and actually never finished basic training before they found out that i had language capability. in those days of course they were looking for german-speaking personnel. and german-speaking personnel no doubt they could trust. so that i was pulled out away from the unit that i had been assigned to in those days and sent to a military intelligence training center in maryland in fact. in which we were assigned to these different jobs of either prisoner of war interrogation or

some military government or some other activities. and i wound up with a unit that was charged with prisoner of war interrogation. and we first went on maneuvers. this was in '42. no, this was '43. and later by the end of that summer, we were sent overseas. then i spent nine months in northern ireland where i was assigned to the unit that i went through the actual battles with. namely, the fifth u.s. infantry division. and as such was a tattached to

regiment. i interrogated for whatever tactical information they could give. and that's what i did. i went through the various kpaepbs. campaigns. i went through normandy. not too much after d-day. and went through the various campaigns and also in luxembourg and later on in germany and first in the north in the rural area. and then another time more in the south. but at one point we were called -- i belonged to patton's third army. we wound up in czechoslovakia.

this was now towards the end of the war. and we were in a town called ilnoramheim. these were the final stages of the war. it was becoming quite obvious it would soon be over. but reports reached us that the town a few miles away surrender they were flying white flags from their houses, so it became my job along with a very small medical detachment and the military government detachment,

to go to that town and take the surrender. it was my job to see if there were still any germans, soldiers, prisoners, i mean soldiers there. and we went to that town just about three jeeps on the evening of may 6. and the military government, colonel, took care of the civilian surrender with the mayor of the town whereas i went about my business looking for germans and i only found a few in a german field hospital. they had converted a school house into a hospital. and i found a few of them and made arrangements, made some mental notes what to do with them the following day.

we were not in any position to do anything right then and there. but we -- it was late in the day and the war was still going on. we still had received some shelling even on the way to the town. but so we decided to go back to our unit about 6, 8 miles away from there. it was getting dark. so, when we got back, i compared notes with the military government colonel and he told me that in fact they had come across a group of about 120 jewish girls who had been dumped into an abandoned factory by their ss guards and that we would see what could be done the following morning. and that was the first inkling i

had of that particular incident. the following morning i went back with a greatly augmented group of people, medics were there in great numbers and again with the military government colonel also. and i drove into that factory and i saw this court yard and there were some -- what i can only describe them as living skeletons walking around going about certain chores, such as getting water in the court yard, and over in a doorway i saw another young woman sort of leaning against the doorway and

she seemed to be in slightly better condition than the rest that i had just seen. and i walked over to her and addressed her, i think both in english and in german. because i assumed of course that she spoke german. and which she confirmed. i wanted to see, of course, where the rest of her companions were, and i asked her about that. she just motioned me in that i -- we went inside and that was of course a scene of devastation that nobody who has ever seen it will ever forget. these girls, young women,

mostly, were lying on scraps of straw that they had found, and in various stages of disease or close to death, and i mean, it was just simply something that one couldn't believe that anybody would permit that. and the young woman i had seen the there, did a most remarkable thing that really, i mean, it just shattered me. when we came into this large room where all of these women were lying, she pointed at them and then quoted some lines from

a well known german poem called the devine, and the words freely translated mean something like, noble be man she made a gesture, helpful and good. and that really simply devastated me. and i started to talk to some of them and one of them even addressed me in english and when i tried to reassure her that now she was all right, she went like this and said no, it's too late. too late. and in fact, i heard later that she did die only hours later. of course, our unit made immediate arrangements to take

care of these girls and we evacuated the hospital of whatever germans were still in it, and we took them to the hospital and where they came under the care and supervision i should mention perhaps that this girl i met first and who was my guide is, has been my wife for 44 years. and that we have eight grandchildren, three children, and eight grandchildren. but, this was still may 7th, and that was just when the war was coming to an end. and i mean, i was totally shaken

by this experience. but i had to go back to my unit because now all these german troops were surrendering en masse, and i really had my hands full for a few days. when i was able to get back to the hospital a few days later, i of course wanted to -- i saw all of the girls but i wanted to see this girl in particular, and i found that she had in fact also collapsed on admittance to the hospital and she was listed in critical condition. and at one point during that time the doctors wanted to amputate her legs but she wouldn't let them. fortunately she was right. despite the fact she was that

ill, we carried on for quite a lively conversation, and she -- when i was ready to leave, she gave me a few sheets of paper and they happened to be some thoughts that she had expressed on the liberation and what it was in fact was an ode to her liberating americans. and programs you can see why i became interested in her. she was an unusual person with a certain aura about her that i knew i had to get to know better. and from that evolved our relationship and i was able to visit her later still in the hospital even after i was

transferred from the immediate area. i would still come back a few times and later on made it possible for her to be near her where i was, and i found her some lodging. her and her friend in munich where i had been transferred after the war. our story sort of came to a climax when we married about a year later in paris. i had been -- i had gotten a leave from the army by that time and gone back to buffalo but i came back to paris and after great deal of difficulty with the local authorities there we finally got married.

and that is our story. it -- it's difficult to think back to those times and to think that we are really those people, but that is what happened to us. i've had some interesting experiences while i was in the army. among other things what happened to me was that i -- that one of the german soldiers that were brought to me for interrogation happened to be hitler's chauffeur, and he gave me the story of the last days of hitler and eva braun in the bunker in

berlin, which has gone down in the history books as being the definitive story of hitler's last days. he told me how he -- how hitler instructed him personally to dispose of his and eva braun's remains by pouring gas over their bodies in the courtyard of that bunker, because they didn't want any remains to fall into russian hands, the russians had of course taken berlin, were taking it shortly thereafter. and so he carried out all of those orders and that is the story that came down to me and i see by the history books also to others, that is apparently how it happened. >> he described to you the last days in the bunker?

>> well, he did but i don't have a very detailed recollection of that. it must have been chaotic but i really can't tell you details that you know, that would throw any light on it now. i do remember that he described his personal duties that hitler had instructed him to do, and so that that no traces were ever found by the russians of hitler and eva braun, his mistress. so that is the story of that. as i said before, unfortunately we found out after the war that my parents along with so many