this could directly afelkt them. like maybe they are going to be the person in space. maybe in some of you are lifetimes instead of taking a flight from new york to london that typically takes about 7 hours, maybe some of us will take that flight in a space shuttle, which is about 40 minutes. that is -- there's no reason why that is not possible in the coming decade. people are starting to think about this differently. >> how about a round of applause for our guests? [ applause ] i want to thank our staff including the journalism institute for their work on today's program. if you'd like a copy of this program, go to our website at press.org and that's where you can also learn more about the

national press club. thank you so much for attending today. we are adjourned. [ applause ] on the next washington journal, grover norquist on the various tax plans put forth by the republican presidential candidates. and then associate director of no kid hungry discusses u.s. households that currently have problems getting access to adequate food due to a welcome of money or resources. after that politico reporter looks at the hillary clinton e-mail probe and what it means for her presidential campaign. plus we'll take your phone calls, facebook comments and tweets. washington journal live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. ahead of pope francis's visit to the united states, the kay toe institute holds a discuss tomorrow on the pope's interpretation of current global economic issues such as poverty

and capitalism. see that live at noon eastern on c-span. also tuesday remarks from john mchugh on the future of the army after serving as that military branch's secretary for the last six years. he will discuss budgetary challenges he's faced in. the light of sequestration and how those budget issues have affected his duties to equip the army. secretary mchugh speaks at the american enterprise institute at noon eastern. see that on c-span 2. both chambers of congress are in session. the senate returns tuesday to take another procedural vote on disaprue i disapruing the nuclear agreement. that vote comes up at 6:00 eastern. later this week work is expected on a measure that would ban abortions after 20 weeks. you can see live coverage of the senate on c-span 2. the u.s. house returns wednesday for debate on several bills, including one that would

direct the tsa to enhance the security at airports. thursday the chamber will start work on legislation to ban funding for planned parenthood unless they agree to stop funding abortions. the house is lyeive on c-span. a signature feature of book tv is our all day coverage of book fairs and festivals from across the country with top nonfiction authors. here's our schedule. near the end of september, we're in new york for the brooklyn book festival celebrate. ing its 10th year. near the end of the month, we'll be covering two book festivals on the same weekend from our nation's heartland it's the wisconsin book festival in madison. and back on the east coast, the boston book festival. at the start of november, we'll

be in portland oregon for word stock followed by the national book awards from new york city. and at the end of november we're live for the 18th year in a row from florida for the miami book fair international. that's a few of the fairs and festivals this fall on c-span 2's book tv. up next, a house education subcommittee holds a hearing on combat. ing campus sexual assaults. one of the topics discussed on whether cases should be handled by the university or outside law enforcement in the criminal justice system. this is about two hours and 15 minutes. >> good morning, everyone. the subcommittee on higher education workforce will come to order. i welcome everyone today's committee hearing we are in a different location and we are a little tighter in here today than we normally would be and ask everybody's indulgence as

the renovation work goes on in the committee room. we'll all be friendlier and kinder to each other today and closer to each other. i'd like to thank our witnesses for joining us for an issue that affects far too many student, campus sexual assault. earlier this week as millions of students stepped foot on campus, members of congress returned from their districts to continue their work strengthening america's higher education system. as we all know, that effort often requires difficult but necessary conversations about tough issues, which is why we're here today. every college student should be able to learn an environment that's safe and free from fear and intimidation. yet for some students, that is not the case. according to one study approximately 1 in 5 women in college has been sexually

assau assaulted. several universities including michigan and m.i.t. report similar findings and a number of recent high profile cases further highlight the scope and seriousness of this important issue. as a former community college president, mother, grandmother, i know i'm not alone when i say all of us have a responsibility to protect students from sexual assault on campus. as one university president claimed, the issue of sexual assault keeps me awake at night. i feel personally responsible for the safety and well-being of all students. another said i see the issue of sexual violence and sexual assault on colleges and universities as a matter of national importance. students, parents, administrators and policymakers across the country share the same sentiment and have joined a a national conversation about these heinous crimes and how we can better protect students. at the college and university level, efforts to protect and

respond sexual assault are under way. for instance, some colleges and universities now require u students to participate in seminars to help them understand what sexual assault is and how to prevent and report it. at the university of north carolina chapel hill, for example, the seminars reenforce safe campus culture and explain policies and procedures for respond i responding to reports of sexual violence. institutions are also improving how they support victims of (áápu&t, providing resources and counselling services to help students recover from such a a terrible event. complete their education and continue with their lives. just as important administrators are working to put in place a fair resolution process that respects the rights of the victim and the accused. at the national level, the federal government has been working with colleges and universities to prevent and respond to sexual assault for

decades. recently members of congress have introduced legislative proposals intended to improve protections for college students. additionally, new policies, institutions must follow. colleges and universities have rightly raised concerns about the administration's one-size-fits all regulatory approach. the administration has further complicated a maize of legal requirements added to the c confusion facing students, administrators and faculty and made it harder for constitutions to gauarantee safety. as dr. remove will explain during her testimony, the patchwork of federal and state policies has impeded the efforts of administrators and educators to prevent and respond effectively to sexual assault on their campus. as congress works to strengthen higher education, it must enis sure tough responsible policies are in place to fight these

crimes and support the victims. i'm pleased we have a panel of witnesses to represent all sides of this difficult, yet important discussion. your observations and recommendations are vital to our efforts to help colleges and universities provide students the safe learning environment they dezerserve. with that, i now recognize the ranking member for his opening remarks. >> thank you, chairman fox. i join you in welcoming our distinguished panel of witnesses. the subject of this hearing is extremely sensitive. as ranking member of this subcommittee, i believe that we must raise the level of awareness in our communities and throughout our nation about the seriousness of campus sexual assault and its impact on our victims. both women and men and their

families. these impacts are far reaching and include poor academic performance, stress, depression and abuse of alcohol and drugs. in addition to supporting the vi victim, we must also be sensitive to the rights of the accused. institutions of higher education must have processes that ensure fairness in handling the ae allegations of campus assaults and that campus investigations are consistent with our nation's long standing principles of due process. whatever system is put in place, we must ensure victims are not afraid to come forward. many victims are reluctant to report sexual assaults because of shame or fear of retaliation r or worried about lack of proof, uncertainty that what

happened constitutes assault or because the lack of information on where or how to report the assault in fear of being treated poorly by the criminal justice system. as a nation, we have made progress towards better understanding and addressing this serious challenge of campus sexual assault. for example, through the development of the task force o to protect sexual assaults, a a department of justice's office of violence against women developed a multiyear initiative to provide support to programs o to prevent campus sexual assault and their recent online resource for changing our campus culture. in the year 2007, the u.s. department of justice also funded a ground breaking study on campus sexual assault. the findings of that study were

staggering. let me give you some examples. amongst women in college nearly 20% will be victims of attempted or actual sexual assault. as will about 6% of undergraduate men. most victims are violated in their first or second year at college. the majority 75 to 80% knew their attackers, often a friend, a classmate. acquaintance or someone they dated. the study also confirmed that the risk of campus sexual assault for undergraduate women increases greatly with the consumption of alcohol and/or drugs. it's clear our concerted efforts are needed to deal with these serious issues. in addition to these federal efforts, i am proud to report that my own home state of texas

is responding to calls of action. starting this year, colleges and universities are required to inform. students of campus sexual assault policies during freshman orientation. schools are also required to review and update those policies every two years. students returning to class at the university of texas campuses this fall will also be participating in the nation's most comprehensive study on sexual assaults ever conducted in higher education. learning and safe environments case study will be led by researchers at ut austin school of social work and will include online questionnaires for students, surveys and focus groups of faculty, staff and campus law enforcement and a four-year study of entering freshmen to identify the

psychological and economic impact of sexual violence. the ut system is spending $1.75 million on this study. so i applaud ut's effort to address campus sexual assault and urge other colleges and universities throughout our country to join in the commitment to end sexual violence on their campuses. in closing, let us renew our efforts to support victims of campus sexual assault. we can't wait for yet another high profile incident to occur before we address this issue. i look forward to hearing what recommendations our panel of witnesses may have to reduce sexual assault on our college campuses and i thank you and with that, madame chair, i yield back. >> thank you. pursuant to committee rules, all members will be permitted to submit written statements to be

included in the permanent hearing record. without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other material referenced during the hearing to be submitted for the official hearing record. it's now my pressure to introduce our distinguished witnesses. the general council at dickenson college in carlisle, pennsylvania. previously, she was in private practice in harrisburg, pennsylvania, where she chaired her firm's practice and represented several pennsylvania private colleges, including dickenson. she is an active member of the national association of college and university attorneys and a member of the legal services review panel of the national association of independent colleges and universities. dr. penny roo is vice president for campus like at wake forest

in north carolina. she's responsible for the well being and safety of wake forest university students and their education outside the classroom and is nationally known for her creative leadership in strengthening campus communities. . ms. lisa mots is vice president of government relations for the association of university women here in washington, d.c. she previously spent 16 months serving concurrently as the interim director of the aauw legal defense fund. she has done similar work for the now legal defense and education fund and the older women's league. mr. joseph cohn is policy director at the foundation for individual rights and education in philadelphia, pennsylvania. he's a former staff attorney for the united states court of appeals for the third circuit and a law clerk in the field court of common pleas.

immediately prior to joining fire, mr. cohn served as the interim legal director in nevada and utah. i now ask our witnesses to stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. you may take your seat. before i recognize you to provide your testimony, let me briefly explain our lighting system. you have five minutes to present your testimony. when you begin, the light in front of you will turn green. when one minute is left, the light will turn yellow. when your time is expired, the light will turn red. at that point, i will ask that you wrap up your remarks as best as you are able.

members will each have five minutes to ask questions. now, i want to recognize ms. ska due to for her commentscaduto f. >> good morning, i thank you for the opportunity to be here today. as a higher education senior administrator with a long history of involvement in the issue of sexual misconduct on our nation's campus, i'm here today because we share the committee's commitment to educating our nation's students in safe and supportive u environments. american colleges and universities are happy to work in partnership with the government and others on finding solutions that will help bring about cultural change and put an end to this most serious problem. as we move forward, i want to take a few minutes to share with you some of the challenges

higher education is facing in our efforts and to propose some ways in which our government and this subcommittee can further help us achieve greater success in preventing and responding to sexual violence. as i make my comments, i will use my term victim out of expediency and because it's referenced in the campus save act but without personal preference as to terminology. first, please recognize that the reports of sexual violence we receive on our campuses are not straight forward or easy to resolve. the sexual violence claims we see most frequently do not involve force or attacks by strangers but between individual who is are acquainted, where one or both are intoxicated, and the primary issue is whether con extent to a sexual act was given. we're left to resolve word on word conflicts between two people whose memories may be impaired and where there are no witnesses. add to this the fact that reports may not be made for days, weeks or months following

an event and i can hope you see the complexity of resolving such issues in a a manner that the parties believe to be fair. while speaking of fairness, colleges and universities are committed to providing fair treatment to all of our students including not only victims, but also to those accused of sexual violence. the changes over the last four years have resulted in complexities and challenges in maintaining the necessary balance. for example, on a small campus removing an accused student from a class in order to keep the student away from an alleged victim before any determination of responsibility can be made may result in the accused student being forced out of a class where there are no other sections or being forced out of a class shortly before graduation. we're also trying to navigate the complexities of title ix laws as well as state laws simultaneously and without the confidence that we can do so to the satisfaction of all. employees duties to report under

various standards differ what and how we're supposed to advise victims of options o of moving forward when they report a sexual assault are just two examples of those complexities. additionally, the current laws and guidance do not appear to proceedings are not equipped to replace law enforcement or judicial functions. the members of our campus communities expected to meet and discharge the new standards for claims are faculty, staff and historically students, not judges nor lawyers. to support colleges and universities efforts to improve culture around this serious issue and to help us in our efforts to hold violators accountability through processes that are fair and impartial, i recommend the following four points for your consideration. first, pause and considering legislation that adds additional requirements to those already complex network of federal and state laws, regulations and guidance until there has been an opportunity to evaluate whether

the efforts to date are working. as a reminder, the regulations went into effect july 1st of this year. second, consider creating a safe harbor for higher education that does relieve us from accountability for failures to comply, but which provides us with certain presumptions of good faith when reviewing our conduct. for example, when we are aplieg fact-based tests by various laws such as in deciding whether to investigate or a victim's objection, if we miss the mark but have found to acted in good faith, provide us with protection from penalties or administrative action. third, if new requirements are considered at some point in the future, ocr should follow, notice and comment requirements of the administrative procedures act. the title ix guidance put in place since 1991 was done without notice or comment from parties outside the agency

depriving colleges and universities, victims and survivors and other interested parties of the opportunity to provide put that may have been helpful in improving clarity and alignment with existing laws and regulations. i'll leave my fourth point for your reading. thank you for listening and considering my perspective as a higher education administrator. >>. >> thank you, chairwoman fox, ranking member and honorable committee members for the opportunity to testify about this critically important issue. the higher education community takes the problem of campus sexual assault very seriously, and we are working diligently to manage systems fair to all students. these are not new issues for us. it's been a priority for decades because of our genuine care for the health, safety and well being of our students. currently, we must address

sexual compliance responsibilities under a swirl of regulations. this one size fits all creates challenges to impede our effort to prevent and respond to sexual assault. added to these challenges now are state legislatures that are enacting statutes creating a patchwork of conflicting regulations. prevention and education efforts are critical to reducing incidents of sexual violence. many campuses imply online modules allow new students to participate in prevention, orientation and beyond. online training programs educate faculty and staff to whom students might report about where to turn. according to the cdc, bystander intervention training are promising practices, but have not yet been validated through rigorous design. some more grant support is needed to conduct evaluation research in had this growing field. at wake forest, we use prepare

peer educators to deliver situational programs to put incoming students attitudes to the test and really get them to think. a highly engaging peer theater program reenforces those messages and is followed by an online curriculum that uses scenarios highly relevant to students. this program will also give us benchmark attitudes that we can use to assess the effectiveness of our programs over time. after students have time to navigate the social scene, they will participate in a program. in their residence halls on intervention training using the step up model. surveys are another growing practice. these are used to assess perception of and experience with sexual violence and these surveys are designed to provide an institution specific picture that in turn enables leaders to coordinate with the community to strengthen e prevention efforts. one survey imposed on all

institutions would not accommodate the wide array of campus environments. they range from four-year residential like my own to community colleges and primarily online universities. each institution should have the awe tommy to develop the best survey. although prevention strategies are in place, sexual violence will still occur on our campuses. student affairs administrators are committed to being fair and balanced to all students engaged in the conduct process. kr critical to this process is the widely established practice of confidentiality for the victim and accused. one of the reasons a student will choose an on campus practice over report iing to th police. one of our most important points in trauma informed work is to allow the survivor the right to choose the path to follow in. the wake of an incident. some may want to report to the campus, some may want to report to the police or both. some may only want support. the institution really needs to

respect that source. to take the decision out of the victim's hand by mandating that a report to campus automatically is turned over to police will create a chilling effect on the willingness of victims to come forward. exactly the opposite of what we want to happen. the confidentiality of our conduct processes guaranteed creates uncertainty about their fairness. we know that. most recently towards the respondent, but it's important to reiterate the processes are structured to be fair and ek equitable to all parties. in the recent "washington post" foundation poll, 84% of current and recent college students said they are very or somewhat confident in the school administration's ability to address complaints. we are not a court of law. ours is an educational process intended to derive at a fair outcome for all parties. at the core of this distinction is our standard of scrutiny. of the evidence.

i think i speak for most colleges and universities in saying we do not need more regulation. e we need more consultation. guidance from the department of education coming without notice often does not help us navigate these waters. i strongly believe it is important to provide opportunities for public comment and discussion where the full complexity of the issues can be explored from those who know them firsthand. in closing, i must express deep concern about the narrative from the media that colleges and universities care more about their institutions, reputation than the rights and experiences of our students. nothing could be further from the truth. instead those of us who handle incident us of sexual violence are professionals who share an overwhelming commitment to strike the delicate balance in today's legislative environment to preserve the educational rights of students, to manage conduct and above all to prevent sexual violence.

thank you. >> thank you very much. ms. maatz, you're recognized for five minutes. >> good morning, on behalf of the more than 170,000 members, over 1,000 branches and 900 college and university partners of the american association of university women, i thank you for inviting us to testify today. my remarks are informed by my 12 years with auw and my tenure as the executive director of a domestic violence program re recognized by excellence and also at whitten burg university where i was a a hall director that responded to incidents of sexual assault. i can personally attest to the fact this is not a new problem. when campus environments are hostile because of sexual harassment and violence, students can't learn. it's that simple and that devastating. schools have an important and necessary role to play in

addressing this epidemic. why? because student rights to an education free of sex discrimination are on the line. auw has identified the need to end violence on campuses. our own research revealed that two-thirds of students experience sexual harassment. 1 in 5 women said they had been sexually assaulted in college. this impacts both men and women and students from all walks of life at all types of schools. title ix provide the very tools schools need to improve campus climates for everyone. 1972, title ix is a a law that prohibits sex discrimination. the law requires schools to take steps to eliminate sexual harassment and violence, prevent reourns, and address impacts on individual students on the campus. this includes evaluating current practices, publishing anti-discrimination policies and implementing grievance procedures providing for an

equitable resolution of complaints. schools must provide accommodation for students such as adjusting housing arrangements and providing academic support. actions that schools are uniquely situated to provide. all schools should have a title ix coordinator as well as monitor patterns and address systemic problems. these requirements are not new, but date back to the laws first regulations back in 1975. since then over the course of republican and democratic administrations, the department of education has continued to provide technical assistance and guidance that promotes compliance with the law. schools also follow a consumer protection law known as the clery act that requires colleges and universities that participate in financial aid programs to disclose crime statistics and security information. originally passed in 1990, it was updated in 2013 as part of a bipartisan reauthorization of the violence against women act. these updates require schools to report additional crime

statistics on domestic violence and stalking and provide ongoing sexual assault prevention and bystander training campus wide. this public report of a school safety effort is valuable to students and parents and provides insights to school working to improve campus safety. title ix are long standing complimentary law that work together to ensure they have a clear course of action when sexual violence occurs. appropriately schools are not in the business of imposing criminal punishments. those decisions are best left to authorities in charge of criminal investigation and prosecution. if a survivor chooses to pursue that course. the school's civil rights immediatings represent parallel yet equally necessary paths. laws and legal precedence spell out schools to be fair, prompt and impartial in all disciplinary u proceedings. title ix echoes these requirements. similarly, the clearly act

requires processes be fair, prompt and impartial and both parties receive timely notice regarding the outcomes of proceedings. there are next steps that congress can take to help schools and students in their effort to end sexual harassment and violence. the time immediately following an incident is especially critical for survivors. they need access to a safe space, medical and counselling and information about their rights and where they can seek additional support. schools should ensure an adviser is available o to connect survivors to resources. the au wrk supported outreach and support campus act would ensure schools take these critical steps. in addition, climate surveys can help schools better to understand the die nynamics beh reported and unreported incidents of sexual violence. schools need information in order to effectively combat this epidemic. when done well, surveys provide transparency crucial for safety and a useful tool to fine tune their response. the auw supported halt campus

sexual assault violence act would also require surveys at all schools. finally we urge congress to provide additional resources for the department of education to support coordinators and other stake holders on laws and best pr practices. there were schools working diligently to respond to incidents of sexual violence and technical assistance can help them make real change. further with more attention to sexual violence, we have also seen an uptick in complaints and unprecedented number of schools are under investigation for title ix compliance. they need additional funding to provide ongoing technical assistance for schools as well as to hold bad actors accountable. we all believe, i think, that a single incident is one too many. when it interferes with a student's education it adds insult to injury but we have tools to make real change. we look forward to working with you as you reauthorize and consider this important topic. thank you.

>> thank you. mr. cohn, you're recognized for five minutes. >> chairwoman fox, ranking member, honorable members of the subcommittee and members of the committee at large, thank you for the introduction. i'm the legislative and policy director for the foundation. we're a nonpartisan nonprofit organization dedicated to defending student and fak culty civil liberties on america's college campus. i thank you for the opportunity to discuss this critical issue. one of the core constitutional rights that fire defends is due process. universities are both morally and legally obligated to respond to known instances of sexual assault in a manner reasonably calculated to prevent its occurrence. for more than 50 years, courts have held that the constitution requires public institutions to provide meaningful due process protections to accuse students. fire believes that these twin

obligations need not be intention. access to higher education is critical. the stakes are extremely high for everybody in campus disciplinary proceedings and it's essential that no student's education is curtailed unjustly. while efforts to address the campus sexual assault have focused on eliminating bias, far too little attention has been placed on preventing bias. against the accused and even more insufficient attention has been placed o on addressing what i call the competency gap. the difference between what college administrators are equipped to do and what the department of education's office for civil rights is demanding of them. campuses are ill instituted to ajud indicate allegations of sexual assault. while college and universities have a role to play in tackling the issue, we must make sure that we are assigning themselves responsibilities they are capable of performing well.

having defended due process for 15 years, fire is convinced that colleges are simply unequipped to serve as investigators and fact findings in these challenging issues. rape is a crime. it should be treated as such. using amateur systems is insulting to victims and disastrous to fundamental fairness. unsurprisingly injustice for both victims and accused is common place. sound public policy requires adjudicating these cases in courts after professional investigations. only courts have the power to take violent predators off the streets. after all, a student who has been ex. peled but not jailed is free to commit rape again. complicating matters further, in the april 4th, 2011 dear colleague letter which did not subject to comment under the administrative procedure act, the agency mandated that

institutions adjudicate cases using the low preponderance of the evidence standard. since issuing the 2011 dcl, ocr conducted 130 investigations. several of which have resulted in settlement agreements. . to the best of fire knowledge, only one investigation is looking into whether the disciplinary process is biassed against the accused. the resulting perception of top down federal bias against the accused is inescapable. i would like to briefly address three bills currently pending before congress. the campus safety act, safe campus act and there are aspects of each that fire supports. on the positive side, all three bills aim to increase the involvement of law enforcement. if our goal is to implement a serious response to a serious problem involving professionals in the criminal justice system is necessary. fire has multiple concerns about casa. it provides no due process

protections for the accused. none. conversely, the safe campus act both include important procedural safeguards that will benefit accused students and complainants alike. what's more, it would repeal the preponderance of the evidence mandate, provide crucial rights to assistance of counsel and require institutions to turn over inculpatory evidence to both sides. to encourage more complaint nants to report to proper authorities, it prohibits institutions for taking action on complaints unless they choose to report the allegation to law enforcement. fire agrees that punitive measures should be waved if they do not report to law enforcement for investigation. we strongly urge congress to amend the language so accommoda accommodations may be made available regardless of the decision to report. while colleges have proven incapable of determining the truth or falsity of accusations, they are well equipped to secure

counselling for victims, provide academic and housing accommodations, secure medical attention and provide general guidance for students as they navigate the criminal justice system. they should perform these regardless of the decision to report the incident. the bill should be amended to encourage them to do so. i provide a detailed analysis of the bills in my written testimony to the committee. to sum up, there's no simple solution to the problem of sexual assault on campus. but low eriering the bar findin guilt and eliminating criminal due process protections by doing that we're creating a system that is impossible for colleges to administer fairly. congress can help reverse the trend by taking all interests into. account. to accomplish that congress should include the aspects of each bill in a comprehensive measure. thank you again for the opportunity to address you and i look forward to answering your questions. >> thank you very much. i would now like to recognize

the chairman of the committee for five minutes. >> thank you, madame chair, and thank you for holding the hearing. thanks to all the witnesses for being here. i picked up a theme, if i can use that term, when i was listening about complexity. somebody used the word swirl of regulations and a patchwork of regulations and ms. scaduto in her four recommendations, the one says harmonize standards, obligations, expectations under title ix and clery. it does seem to me that it is confusing because you have different statutes with different requirements and i have great confidence that everybody in this room sitting up here, sitting there or

sitting in the gallery, so to speak, wants to find a way to eliminate sexual assaults on campus. and should it occur to make sure that we are holding perpetrators accountable and we are providing support and protection for victims. but it does seem to be complex. so i'll just go to you, ms. scaduto, in part because i lived in carlisle for awhile. it's a a beautiful part of the ko country and of the state and my son graduated from carlisle high school. i've got this tie, i just have to fwo to carlisle. are you concerned that the emphasis that's being placed, the focus that's being placed on complying with these federal laws and regulations detracting from your ability to do what's

in the best interest of your students? >> yes, we are. i think it's a concern shared not only on dickenson's campus on carlisle, but on campuses around the country. if we were able to har mmonize, and we understand that the promulgation of regulations is done with the best of intentions in protecting our students and it's a goal we support. but when we are spending our time trying to harmonize our compliance with the various statutes, it takes away from where i think we as educators excel and that is in educating. and that's on the side of prevention and training that the doctor spoke so eloquently about. when we have different reporting requiremen requirements, for example, under clooer ri and guidance, we have the same group of employees who are interacting with the same students, but we are getting

different standards with who must report and what they must report when they learn of an incident of sexual misconduct. and when that type of analysis detracts from getting the report made and responding to a a student in need, it's problematic. there are ways to improve harmnization such as the notice and comment period that could be used by ocr when it enacts new guidance because even there there's distinct differences between that and the regulations. so yes, the disharmony does prevent complications and take us off the real important work we need to do around this issue. >> thank you very much, i u yield back. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i now recognize the ranking member, mr. scott. >> thank you, madame chairman for calling this hearing on preventing and responding to

sexual assault on college campuses. this issue of campus safety is foremost in the minds of american families as they send their children away to college. congress declared september the national campus safety awareness motto help bring awareness to incidents of campus rape, mass shootings and other forms of violations. congress required institutions to report campus crime statistics and to publish campus safety and security policies. we know the issue of campus sexual assault is complex. nevertheless, once the school knows or reasonably should know of sexual violence it must take immediate and appropriate action to investigate or otherwise determine what occurred. unfortunately, campus sexual assault is usually addressed only after there's an alleged incident. we have to have meaningful

procedures to hold accountable those who commit sexual assaults, but we also must do more to try to prevent them from occurring in the first place. one strategy is to educate young people about healthy and safe relationships before entering college. to teach safe relationships act of 2015 introduced by senator tim kain of virginia would require that health education in public secondary schools include learning not just biology, but also safe relationship behavior aimed at preventing sexual assault, domestic violence and dating violence. currently federal law does not require sex education classes to include information regarding these relationships, which can prevent sexual assault. there's also a study published in the june 2015 new england journal of medicine that found that college women who participated in an intensive program showing students how to recognize and resist sexual

aggression reduced their chance of being raped by nearly 50% and attempted rape by 62%. we know that funding is also an issue and funding is needed to implement educational programs and robust enforcement of all civil rights laws on campus. over the department of education funding has decreased and flat lined over the years and the staffing level is the lowest it's been in 34 years despite having a record of 10,000 civil rights complaint. we can also do more to train campus public safety personnel and support evidence-based research to strengthen college safety and security and have a clearinghouse for relevant campus public safety information. as an example, the national center for campus public safety in january 2015 conducted its first pilot program offered in a course in rich mondmond, virgin

for training for campus officials including title ix coordinators, legal counsel and others. let me ask just a question to all of the witnesses. some have alluded to some of the things we can do. can the witnesses talk about -- i know we're going to talk about what to do after the fact, but what kind of strategies can can we do before. the fact to reduce the incidents of campus sexual assault? >> that's an excellent question, thank you so much for asking it. working on relationships and students understanding of safe relationships is key. and doing that before they get to college is also important. auw's research shows sexual harassment and bullying is prevalent in k-12 schools starting with preschool. so having conversations about safe relationships, having good curriculum about how to talk about those issues, and also encouraging students to look at themselves as someone who can

help, to look at the bystander intervention kinds of models have been really successful. the cdc studies have shown that when you do relationship education and emphasis on safe and healthy relationships, you do start to erode campus sexual assault. so you do need to start young. it needs to be consistent. it needs to be ongoing. and it's something that we need to get behind. >> are you familiar with senator kain's bill? >> i am familiar with the bill. >> can you make a comment about it? >> it is a bill that auw supports. it's smart to look at this curriculum across the country. right now since we know we have this epidemic of campus sexual assault, starting young is great. doing it in high school is fine, but i would submit you probably need to start in elementary school. >> let me just add briefly that the research is inconclusive because rarely do we have the opportunity to do random

assignment of subject to group, which is where you can get rigorous testing. so more support for research in this area would be useful. we have what we know and what cdc calls promising practices, e don't actually have proven effectiveness. >> thank you, madame chir. >> thank you very much, mr. scott. dr. rue, you mentioned the importance of prevention and education efforts on campus in reducing incidents of sexual assault. do you have written evaluations that you can provide us on the results of those efforts? and, could you give us just a thumbnail of the greatest -- what have had the greatest impact on the campus safety climate from what you have experienced? >> yes, ma'am. thank you for the question. the two most promising practices are bystander intervention training and social norms

training. bystanderer have vengs training, people learn the steps it takes to disrupt or interrupt what locks like it's going to be problematic behavior. the truth is peers are often able to do this but they need the courage to essentially change the code, if you will, of what is agreed upon as acceptable social behavior. this is effective. we haven't had studies so we call a promising practice. the other practice is the social norms practice and what social norms does is look at the gap between what people think and what people think other people think. and it really contributes to thinks such as rape myth and so when you can ask through research does a woman drinking too much suggest that she wants to have sex? you can actually measure that and you'll find that people think other people think that. but they don't think that

themselves and so you can go back to your campus with that gap and combat those norms that are actually creating a hostile environment. >> thank you very much. mr. cohn, in your testimony, you make the important point that rape is a crime and should be treated as such. how could using what you call amateur systems on campus lead to injustice for both victims and accused students? >> thank you for the question, chairwoman foxx. the primary way that the way the status quo works harms both the accused students and the complainants is that we get unreliable findings because the people adjudicated cases don't have the right tools to do it. the same people would be fine on juries are doing -- you have deans of physics departments, english professors and sophomores trying to fig our yut o wut a rape occurred. without forensic evidence,

ability to put witnesses under oath. they're doing it without rules of evidence to make sure that relevant information is included and irrelevant is excluded. the idea that they're going to get it right consistently with all of those limitations is a fantasy. so, the primary thing that we can do is make sure that the -- that we ask people to play a role that they're comp tent to fulfill, one that takes advantage of the skills and what they bring to the table. and works together. and that's what i mean when i say that amateur affects injustices. >> thank you very much. miss scaduto, you mentioned that you're a negotiator and rule making process for implementation. could you tell us a little bit more about that experience and how you believe the funt for stake holders to contribute to the regulations resulted in clear and transparent expectations for schools

specially in contrast to sub regulatory guidance? >> happy to do so, chairwoman foxx. through the negotiated rule making there was a group of i believe 14, 28 with the alternates very much part of the process and we representeddy vur gent points of view. however view being equally committed to dealing with the issue of sexual violence. we had higher education administrators like dr. rue at the table, counsel like me. we had security officers from higher ed. we had survivors and victims of rape. male and female, both represented. we had advocacy groups at the table. and we did very hard work. we came together over a three-month period and we looked at proposed language proffered by the department of education and we had the opportunity to talk about whether we should drill down in a particular area

and impose a single standard on a particular issue, and talk about as dr. rue mentioned earlier, the fact that we need language which is fluid because colleges and universities are so different across this country. large, small, public, private, online, commuter. all those different issues. and it was very difficult work but i am confident that the product we ended up with at the end of that process was a better reflection of the wider community in rules and regulations that work on college campuses than without it. >> thank you very much. mr. hinojosa, recognize you for five minutes. >> thank you. my first question is to miss lisa maatz. you state in your statement that you read to us that current law requires schools to respond to campus sexual assault because a student's civil rights are on the line. you also said that a school's

civil rights investigation and any law enforcement criminal investigation represent parallel and equally necessary paths. can you please explain the parallel tracks of title ix enforcement interact as compared with criminal investigations and why is it so important for the victim to be able to decide whether he or she wants to pursue a criminal investigation as opposed to campus disciplinary process? >> well, i think -- thank you very much for the question. i think there is great confusion between what a criminal process looks like and what the civil rights process is supposed to look like. collegeampuses are not supposed to be nor will we expect them to be enforcing criminal law. what they're doing is looking at civil rights. has title ix been violated? has a woman in this case been -- has her education been impacted and therefore she can't obviously take advantage of her

civil right to a sex discrimination free education? schools can't send people to jail. you know? schools really look at enforcing student code of conduct. and, you know, before when we were talking about the notion of kind of amateur courts, i do take exception to that on behalf of schools because they have been dealing with their enforcing and the code of conduct. they know how to do that. where there's confusion, i think, when it comes to campus sexual assault schools are supposed to be dealing with the civil rights impact not just on the individual student but how it impacts the campus as a whole and that's different than the criminal proceedings that we have talked about. >> thank you. miss dana scaduto, you said that colleges and universities are very concerned that despite their best efforts to follow

applicable laws and guidance, achieving full compliance is not possible. and you also said proposing creating safe harbors for colleges are not held liable under title ix if they can show good faith efforts to meet the requirements of conflicting provisions. can you help me understand how creating such a safe haven would reduce and help prevent instances of campus sexual assault? >> certainly, mr. hinojosa. it's my privilege to do so. let's take the example, there are a couple of examples i can give you. if you take the ocr guidance, in it, we are supposed to advise a victim of her rights to report. clare uses the language to advise the victim of her right not to report. is there a sbepded difference between those? and when you put those, you take that and you put it up against a

state law where if you take clear ri an you have to advise an individual of her right not to report but there's a state law that mandates reporting of felonies by the institution, have we created a conflict between -- in executing on a plan that everyone wants the same outcome but we have this swirl of differences? and we are not quite sure how to comply with all of them. and in our best efforts to do so, if we err by reporting under the state law when we have cleary telling us to -- advise a victim of a right not to report, provide us with protection and support that if in our best efforts to comply we miss the mark, that we won't be held accountable for penalties or agency action. that's just one example. >> thank you. mr. cohn, time is running out, and as i heard your presentation brought back memories of what is approximately 20 years of

service on this committee. congressman woman patsy mink of hawaii led a group, members of congress, to focus on title ix and there was a mind-set throughout the country, especially from some certain states that wanted that title ix removed or weakened so that it wouldn't be a problem for them. their mind-set, women were not supposed to have the same opportunities in sports. now that we're dealing with this, you talk about allowing schools to set a higher burden of proof in these proceedings could make it more difficult to punish offenders. how does that contribute to making campuses safer? >> i think -- thank you, congressman hinojosa, for the question. i think reliability in outcomes makes campuses safer. and when you reduce the amount of certainty, the fact finders need to hold without providing

them the tools you're not really making campuses safer. at the end of the day, foent forget, someone expelled from a campus is not removed from society. they're still free to walk the streets. the campus isn't safer, either. the truth of the matter is the schools need to not be indifferent to claims. need to make sure to provide the kind of services necessary to make sure that complainants can get an education the next day and not tied necessarily to being a fact finder. >> i want to go on record of disagreeing with you. facilities under investigation right now has doubled, tripled and quadrupled so i think that we really in congress need the address this. >> the ranking member's time has expired. >> i yield back. >> dr. row, you're recognized. >> thank you. thank you for the panel. this is an incredibly complicated, difficult situation. i think probably i'm the only one sitting on the dias except

perhaps dr. heck who's examined women for sexual assault and has testified in court is my lifelong job as a obs trirn gynecologist. it is an incredibly difficult, complicated issue you all are dealing with. miss scaduto, you brought out a couple of points that hit me, requirements we have from the state if i examine a woman in the emergency room, i break the state law if i don't report that. if this is a student. they are in conflict. and i think it puts a great pressure, i mean, on you to know if you oar doing the right thing and i know that -- i'm going to ask mr. cohn in a minute about this. we certainly want to protect the rights of each one but i can tell you i've dealt with patients over decades who have dealt with the consequences of sexual assault and how you deal with it and i mean it changes -- it is life changing. i mean, forever.

life changing. so how you deal with this is incredibly important and i think the start you all made is that early on is education is absolutely the key to prevention. and i know dr. rue, you mentioned a couple things that intrigued me about how you prevent that and the results i mean, the incidents lowered greatly. i don't know whether the incidents is greater now or just reporting it greater. i have a feeling it's just reporting greater. i think the crime has been there all along. i think it's just been grossly underreported. so a couple of things that i'd like to know is, and i'll start, mr. cohn, with you. is it your absolutely you're right to gather this information, i have done it meticulously before is difficult to do to protect the rights of everything involved. ms. maatz, we are dealing with a civil rights issue and a criminal issue. when do you determine to turn it over?

it is a criminal act. >> i think that's really one of the key questions in this debate is when's the appropriate role of law enforcement here? i'm glad you zoned in on it. at the end of the day, mandatory reporting doesn't require a complainant to cooperate with the investigation but the law enforcement is aware of it to reach out and offer the services that they provide. we know and it's a fact you have 72 hours to get a rape kit done. 48 hours to get blood collected to show whether someone was drugged against their will or perhaps so intoxicated they couldn't have possibly consented. once that time frame elapsed, the window is gone for that physical evidence to help a claim. we believe that everyone will be helped getting the require professionals plugged in as quickly as possible. that's the way to build trust with law enforcement, is to make sure they get the information as fast as possible when they can take the best and strongest actions on behalf of victims and

help the falsely accused to have information recorded quickly, too. it will help everyone. >> we have seen over time where with new dna evidence and new evidentiary things we have had and people have been falsely accused and obviously you want due process for everybody. dr. rue, to you, at wake forest university, what resources do you have for a student, either male or female, after this occurred? i can tell you, as a physician, it's absolutely critical. >> thank you for your question, representative row. i agree with you that it is a life changing event. i have sat with many, many students in that process, both men and women, quite honestly. and it's devastating. we do have 24/7 on-call confidential advisers that are available to go -- wherever the student is. if the student is in the emergency room or if the student is gone to student health.

we have 24/7 student health and we have 24/7 student emts on campus and we have a nice safety net right there. the most critical link is our confidential adviser. this is the person that reaches out and establishes trust. if the first questions someone is asked by their friends are about their own behavior, they are likely to completely shut down. and so, if we can get that person as fast as possible to our confidential adviser who is trauma informed in the counseling techniques and create a bond and then accompany her or him throughout whatever process is, whether it be sitting through a police investigation, whether it be going to the housing department to make room changes or to the academic adviser, and that bond is the most important bond. and it's the most important role on campuses today. >> my time's expired but one other thing for you all to think

about is how can we streamline this so you're not checking boxes but taking care of students? that's where the resources need to be and i see it all the time where all this con flab of things you have to do takes away from the real resource which is taking care of the student and the patient. i yield back. >> i appreciate your commitment. >> thank you, mr. roe. dr. adams, i'd like to recognize you for five minutes. >> thank you very much, chairman foxx, ranking member hinojosa, for holding this important meeting. my thanks also to the witnesses for your testimony and special shout-out to dr. rue from wake forest, partial in my district. campus sexual assault is a very serious issue. it affects entirely too many of our students. and to be clear, even one student is too many. and so, while i believe prevention through education is the best way to combat this growing problem, i appreciate your speaking to that, we must still deal with the incident that is occur.

unfortunately, that's nearly impossible to do with all of the differing ways in which institutions of higher education and law enforcement agencies handle sexual assault and it's becoming more complicated with efforts to weaken title ix. although north carolina has -- does not have a significant number of incidents currently open, the case open at the university of north carolina chapel hill is particularly disturbing and i'm disappointed that there's a case that's open in my city of greensboro at the university of -- at gillford college. i spent 40 years as a faculty member on the campus of bennet college, a small women's college, primarily african-american women in greensboro. i had ongoing concerns then and i still do. and there are many things i could talk about surrounding sexual assault but i want the hone in just for a moment on the affects of women of color. according to the centers for

disease control, approximately 34% of multiracial women, 27% of alaskan native american indian women and 22% of black women and 14.6% of hispanic women are survivors of sexual violence. ms. scaduto and dr. rue, wake forest university is liberal arts institution with pretty good resources i think. can each of you speak to your campus initiatives that address the need for cultural specific prevention, education for your minority students who might be dealing with the weight of other issues like racial discrimination and economic disparities? >> yes, thank you, representative adams. i appreciate your question. we do take our responsibilities to all students very serely. we know one size doesn't fit all. with our african-american students, we have a peer

mentoring program that creates a very tight knit bond with well resourced upper class students and an increasing number of first-generation students, students who didn't attend college and first in the forest programs to help the students navigate, as well. we do try to utilize the best research to understand differential impact and also to get within the peer culture because that's where these things occur. so the use of peer educators is our most important tool. >> thank you. >> i can say that the programs at dickinson are similar. we have specialized training for african-american men in healthy choices and healthy habits called mandatory. we do many of the same things that dr. rue is doing. there's no question but that we can do more. in cultural specific impact. but right now, we are putting in place the issue is so pref veva that the issue is getting all of the students trained, using

things like green dot and healthy relationships and sexuality training on the campuses for all students and i do imagine that as time passes we will become more proficient looking at specific communities and how they're impacted. >> thank you. ms. maatz, do you have any recommendations if colleges with less resources, less staff, are able to provide comprehensive prevention and response? >> well, number one, i would always encourage colleges an universities not reinvent wheel. there's community vftss, rape crisis hotlines, domestic violence shelters to help with prevention programs and confidential advisers which is a great best practice. the other thing i would say, though, specific to women of color is we need to be really sensitive, especially about mandatory reporting. we know that there are issues in terms of gender bias in policing and racial bias in policing and

for women of color to mandate to report to law enforcement is a great to way to ensure they don't report to anybody, that they don't get any help or support. so we need to be culturally competent about that and sensitive and a reason there's a letter to department of justice asking them to create new legislation to deal with the different thing that is women of color are facinging. >> thank you very much. i'm out of time. madame chair, thanks very much. >> thank you, dr. adams. mr. guthrie, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you all for being here. i appreciate it. it's important for us to move forward on this as we have higher ed reforment i'm in the situation, i had a daughter just graduate from college and i have a son in college and before i came here planning our college tour from my senior in high school. my little girl. so when we leave camp and drop them off, those day that is crush us all, and drive away, we want to make sure that we are

doing everything we can here and you're doing everything you can to make sure they're in a safe police and this information is good for us. and you look at harmonizing requirements. i was in state senate and now here that when there's a requirement added or things done, it's because something happened and so we're reacting to something that happened in trying to prevent it moving forward and sometimes you get different bills that happen at different times and different requirements and should be an opportunity to sit down in the higher ed reform and say what is this report trying to accomplish? and what is it trying to prevent? and how can we harmonize them and do them together? that's important to do. ms. scaduto, you talked in your written testimony, i believe, about some of the requirements that established by the administration that don't necessarily comply or difficult to work around -- with nontraditional campuses and students. would you care to talk about how that's difficult? we need a system to take care of

that but we want to see how they make it difficult to comply. >> higher education would greatly appreciate framecorks rather than -- it goes to what dr. rue said earlier. one size fits all. take, for example, the differences in how you -- in training or education of different constituencies on different campuses. let's just take, for example, if it were determined by good research that having students in a chair to receive training on sexual -- on violence prevention is the best method. but you are a commuter campus, you are a community college. or your students don't live there. you don't have the opportunities to reach them outside the classroom as you do on a residential campus f. you're an online school and there was an online school represented in negotiated rule making and her perspective kept popping up. i have to admit i was like, oh,

i hadn't thought about that. we need standards for reaching them rather than a -- other than brightline tests. even a question of what is a student? if you're a -- if a student is taking a class as an adult learner taking a class, that part of the cohort that raises the risk of sexual violence on your campus or is it the 18 to 22-year-olds who live in residence? these are all complexities about the differences in who we are as institutions and how we most effectively reach those who need the information if we're going to engage in cultural change and cultural shift. we have to have the flexibility on the various campuses across this country to reach those different audiences and different ways. >> and, dr. rue, i was going to ask you to elaborate more on your prevention because that's where we want -- we'd love to -- we want to get to zero. we have to have systems because we are not at zero. but elaborate on the preventions you mentioned earlier and then the ones you think are most

effective to students. >> right. i'm going to turn to some work done by the centers for disease control in this and they have nine principles of effective sexual misconduct prevention programs. the first is it's comprehensive, multiple methods, not a one-shot deal with varied teaching strategies. some learn through active engagement. others learn theoretically. others visually. sufficient dosage. opportunity over time to deal with these issues. theory driven. they have a foundation in theory. that they foster positive relationships. they're not focused on whatnot to do but instead what to do. that they're timed to developmentally appropriately. if you're just getting ready to graduate versus just arriving, those needs are different. socially, culturally relevant as representative adams suggested. that we understand the different

backgrounds that students bring to us. and that there's an outcome evaluation as well as well-trained staff. that's what the cdc has. we strive for all of those. i will say that without getting into the curriculum, it is difficult to deliver over long periods of time. we are usually working with a voluntarily workshop format for students and prevention programs and i would say curricular innovations in this area would be welcome. >> thank you. the day you drop them off and drive off campus, like i said, you're crushed and they're leaving home and also excited for them and you want them to have the experience of a lifetime and want it to be safe and secure so thank you so much for that. i yield back. >> thank you, mr. guthrie. ms. davis, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madame chair. thank you all for being here today. i appreciate that.

we dealt with a lot of campus issues around sexual violence and i understand that campuses have been dealing with them for many years but in terms of the visibility and the issue, it followed to a certain extent looking at sexual assault in the military. and we introduce add number of bills to try and get at this issue. not so easy and i have a few colleagues here from the armed services committee that know and understand that. one of the things that we have been talking about here which was really critical was the support for victims. men and women. to have access to -- you mentioned a trauma informed but a highly professional individual who really can help victims navigate the system and provide the kind of onyxes available to them that they have, whether it's, you know, reporting or

non-reporting and what that means, actually, for them. so i was just wondering in terms of what you have seen and the campus -- the safe campus act or other acts, are there some that you think actually would make it difficult for a student who chooses not to report to have those services, to receive those services? are there bills that actually do tie the opportunity for victims to be informed by someone who really is highly trained in this area and quite frankly i'm not sure that we're there in terms of the highly trained but at least we know where we have to go with it. anybody want to respond -- do you see that? >> if i can respond real quickly. congresswoman, the safe campus act as the provision that would limit campuses response if a student doesn't respond and f.

immaterial f.i.r.e. is asking for congress to -- on that student's decision. but we do think it's generally a good idea to have campuses make hur that police are investigating so we think it is a good idea to limit the punitive responses that a school can make. >> i'm going to respectfully disagree. >> yeah? >> yeah. we know that -- again, that ability to navigate to that confidential victim support person is the most critical thing. and if universities are mandated to report criminally we know it's going to have a chilling effect on people even getting to the very first resource to help. the truth is people do -- most students do not want to go through a law enforcement interview. our experience teaches us that cops look for violence for signs of struggle, for weapons. they don't understand the nuance

of campus sexual assault. they tend to minimize. if you have read the boom missoula it is a beautiful picture of what happens when individuals report in that setting, the kind of questions they're asked, the doubt that's cast upon them and again it has a chilling effect and it causes many to shut down. so i can't support it. >> ms. maatz, the harmonizing issue that we mentioned earlier in terms of how universities, how institutions deal with this. >> well, i think the mandatory reporting absolutely has chilling effect. i think if you're looker a way to have students not report just to the school and law enforcement, make it mandatory. part of what we're trying to do with title ix and the cleary act is create an environment on campus that supports reporting. if it's going to be supportive of students it needs to be helpful to them. and that kind of reporting not only helps that individual student and setting the tone on campus in terms of creating a safe --

>> i think what's important about that, as well the s.o.s. act i authored with snofr boxer basically has i think actually brought about a number of special advocates onti:jz campu and university of california system and others and i think you've mentioned many schools have them. i think the real -- >> thank you for that. >> -- key for that is the level of training and military system, as well, the fact that people generally become more knowledgeable about this process which has been a very well-kept secret in the past and is i think has contributed to the fact that it's a fearful system and that's what we're trying to get away from. >> that's right. >> thanks to your work on the military, our rotc programs are among the best partnerless now. they are part of our sexual misconduct working group helping in lock step with their training resources and it's a great partnership. >> thank you.

>> thank you, ma dram chair. >> thank you. dr. heck, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madame chair. thank you all for being here and discussing this critically important topic. like the gentle lady of california, i was struck by the similarities of campuses and experiencing within the military which in and of itself experiencing an epidemic of military sexual assault. and both dr. rue and ms. scaduto, in the comments you talked about things similar, not straight forward or easy to resolve, doesn't involve force of strangers. word on word conflicts. may not be reported for days, weeks, months. where the survivor has a right to choose a path in the wake of an incident, some reporting"ds÷ campus or some to law enforcement, similar to the military unrestricted and restricted reports and in a restricted report it is not referred to law enforcement but allows the victim to take part

of the supportive services needed to help them heal. has there been any review of what perhaps might be best practices developed within the military? realizing that we are not fully there yet either. but any best practices implemented in the military l's response? >> i'd have to say, i need to learn more about what they have done an i'm eager to do so. thank you for that referral. >> i think, dr. heck, a thing i would say is that we have seen an increase in the reporting. in the military. and part of the reason for that is because the conversation is being had because there is now a top down as well as a bottom up kind of conversation being had and there's training going on and that makes all the difference in the world. the prevention is key and i think those are all good lessons to use for campus sexual assault. >> thank you. >> i don't know enough about the military practice to weigh in on there but i can say is that one interesting parallel is that

last year we heard a lot of chatter about how the military tribunal should not be adjudicating the matters with the potential for bias there and instead removed to civil courts. essentially the same argument i'm making to you today which is that campuses maybe not adjudicating the facts with the potential for bias and conflicts of interest instead and relying on professionals and courts. >> thank you. a question for my own edification. so if a victim on a campus chooses not to report to law enforcement, but comes to the campus authorities to resoouf the supportive services, does that automatically result in that case going forward for a disciplinary hearing on a college campus? >> no, it does. the best guidance we get on dealing effectively with survivors of sexual assault tells us that they need the control to decide how to go --

if they want to go forward, when they want to go forward and how they want to go forward. although the guidance is inconsistent, we get guidance both from orc and under the regs that mandate that we give them the options and tell them. an it's funny as i listened to the conversation from congresswoman davis and others about the use of report, it's banging around in my head because we use report very specifically on campuses. and a report means someone comes forward and telling someone. that's a report. and that's it at its essence. and if they do that, then we wrap our arms around them as a community and make sure they get the resources they want, they know their options and if they want confidential reporting we can direct them in that. if they come to us and they tell us, that report does not move forward under most circumstances whether it's internally through our conduct processes or erks ternlly but law enforcement or both without their consent and

participation. there are exceptions. as you can expect, i mean, you're lawmakers. you know there are exceptions. if we have an ongoing threat to our community, we might have to move forward without the consent of the person who brought the report forward. and that also is an example of why safe harbors are important. if we're being guided by the wishes of the victim, but we have an ongoing threat on our campus and we make that decision to move forward, being protected from action by administrative agencies would be helpful. >> great. so as a father of three, one who -- a daughter a graduate of college, a daughter a junior your and a son that started the freshman year, i thank you for what you're trying to do to make the campuses a safer place. thank you. i yield back. >> thank you, dr. hex. plmpbt desaulier, you're next. >> thank you for having the

hering. i think the hearing helps to draw attention to what's i feel is a real urgency and i think everyone else does. i hear a great commonality in terms of our desire to take effective action. and we're struggling with what that is. and also, as a parent who's dropped two kids off at college that rite of passage that all of us have shared and the convey answer of that trust that we put in the inls tuitions that we leave them at and the expectation they will not just educate them well but a provide a culture they feel safe and not put in the situation of either being a victim or ap2,m bystand. so my analogy and i appreciate the last two comments about the analogy to the military, alot of this conversation reminds me of the early '90s when i was in local government and the clinton administration bringing up domestic violence and the conversations we have had remind me very specifically of the

challenges and even though everybody wanted to stop it, we've got to be careful of approaches because we're all subject to subjective opinions about the relationships between men and women. so, to miss maatz or dr. rue, anyone else, cdc when they look at the history of, for instance, domestic violence, no analogy is perfect but we know a lot in the 20 years from 19194 when the federal government took a leadership role and passed the violence against women act that was reauthorized. not dissimilar, certainly. i remember talking to mandated reporters then, particularly educators in high school struggle with many of the same issues you do and although in the community i think they didn't have some of the maybe the cultural or professional insular -- not insular, that's a poor choice of words. maybe you understand what i'm

getting at. the uniqueness of academia at a college campus. >> right. congressman, i share your sense of a flashback in many respects. when i was the executive director of turning point which is a domestic violence shelter and program in ohio, it was during the o.j. simpson trial. it was during the first efforts to pass the violence against women act. and so, it felt like there was kind of a national teach-in on domestic violence and people were talking about it. and i see that bright spotlight today on campus sexual assault. i think many of the same things are happening. it is being very much driven by survivors and advocates who feel the time has come. and i think that that also is very similar. i think we can take some lessons from that. we have a lot more data after 20 years, we have a lot more data about how violence occurs. we have police, law enforcement that are a lot more -- have a lot of data and experience dealing with it. prosecutors, as well. but i also would continue to

stress talking about campus sexual assault we want to be mindful of the fact we're dealing with that as a civil rights issue and we need to be really concerned 0 of an access to an education that doesn't contain sex discrimination. we know too often that survivors will have problems oftentimes, drop out. that obviously is an interference with their -- with their education. some of them because of the some of the posttraumatic stress and other issues they have had, grades go down and then lose scholarships and they're not on campus so it is something that we need to be mindful of. there's the criminal element we need to talk about and need to harmonize and same time they're separate and distinct and equally necessary paths. >> i appreciate that. i'll let dr. rue respond, as well, because you were relating to my initial comments but we know from domestic violence and as you comment said of the

causeality and the multigenerational aspects of this. the sooner with we get the regulations right and the federal government does have an appropriate role in it making sure that role is effective, i think is what we're all talking about. dr. doctor? >> i appreciate the earlier representative who brought up the issue of earlier education. we sadly know through our incoming student surveys that students have already been in abusive relationships. they have already had relationships that were controlling, that left them with self doubt and unable to stand up for themselves. so, we do support and we do understand these as multigenerational issues. if students don't have excellent role models to look to, where do we find that? so we would love department of education to engage the k-12 system in these conversations, as well. >> thank you. thank you, madame chair.

>> thank you. m. salmon, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. my first question is, is there any data out there that we can access that would deal with a victim that has initially chosen not to report to law enforcement who later regrets that and decides they want to report it to law enforcement and they want the individual prosecuted? is there any data on that? >> congressman salmon, interestingly enough, there is an absence of that data. we don't know when a prosecutor chooses not to bring a case forward why they made that decision all the time. sometimes it could be because of outdated modes of thinking about women and stereotypes but other times it could be spoilation of evidence. we don't track that. that's a major concern and

that's one of the reasons why we think it's so important to get the right medical and -- >> well, and i guess that's one of my big concerns. i was talking to dr. roe when's dealt with a lot of victims and had to examine them and deal with them and court proceedings. and a lot of times later on an individual who decides they don't want that person prosecutes decides they do. maybe -- and i have these concerns about going to the university or the college and maybe the counselor or adviser leaning on them, talking them out of prosecuting because of concern for the alleged perpetrators career or education. whatever the case may be, i worry about the fact that an individual who decides initially not to prosecute or not to report to the law enforcement all the forensics is-and then several months or years later

they decide within the statute of limitations, i want that individual prosecuted so they're not going to do that to anybody else and then the forensics is not there because it was never reported to law enforcement and the people that ended up dealing with it didn't have the capability to even put a case together in the first place. >> one other critical aspect of mandatory reporting is that there's no way to build up more trust with police than to work with them. you know? we can't fix a problem if there's a problem in the criminal justice system, it needs to be tackled directly with the criminal justice system. concerned about the chilling effect of a police officer pick up the phone and say to them, i heard about your complaint, is there something i can do to help, we'll never get beyond the barrier of helping that system. they can only do that working with trust and hopefully more prosecutions and convictions if law enforcement is brought in faster. >> it seems to me that the dialogue here today has been much more a focus on helping the victim cope and deal and that's

all incredibly important and to deal with the aftermath and go forward but i don't hear a lot of dialogue about justice. i don't hear a lot of dialogue of keeping evil perpetrators off the street so they don't do it to another girl. i have two girls that graduated from college and i'd be livid in a perpetrator that sexual abused numerous girls and they decided not to report that kid is out there seeking to harm other girls and my girl ends up getting -- i might be pretty ticked off that that guy is let -- allowed to keep perpetrating the crimes. >> one other thing needs to be said about justice. people say this isn't a criminal justice issue and the panel isn't going to send someone to jail. that's only partially true. the dean doesn't sentence someone to 20 years in jail and important to hear, as well, the transcripts of the hearings are

admissible this criminal trials and admitted across the country. a prosecutor can independently decide if they want to click print and use everything said against an accused student. there's tremendous 5th amendment considerations here so justice really requires meaningful due process which i'm so glad is part of the conversation now. >> can i just interject because that was one of my other questions. talk about due process and a fundamental right here in the united states for anybody that is accused of crimes. can you tell me the difference between preponderance of the evidence and beyond a reasonable doubt? >> sure. >> that's very fundamental. >> which is almost near, you know, near certainty. preponderance of the evidence is 50.01% more like think to have happened than not. the difference certain is somin mall it really amounts to just what hunch you believe more. that's not a problem in civil

courts all over the procedural protections going into play. discovery, lawyers, rules of evidence, subpoena power, all of those things. but when you ask people without the other tools to then just decide who you agree with more, that's where you get an injustice. it's when you decouple preponderate. >> i have to disagree. preponderate is the standard that precludes giving presumption for or against either party. it is the most equitable. any other standard has already tipped the scale on who to believe. >> it's not only the most equitable but the standard that most schools have been using throughout the years and not new or different. the other part of the preponderate standard is that it's what's used talking about, for instance, title vii cases, civil cases, dealing with these kinds of issues and both have a civil remedy and maybe also could have some criminal

implications. so the reality is this is something that schools understand, that they have been using for a long time and there's plenty of guidance from the department of education as to exactly how they should be using it. everything is about being equitable, fair and impartial. >> mr. salmon's time has expired. mr. jeffries, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madame chair. i thank the distinguished ranking member, as well, for his leadership and the witnesses here on such an important topic. i want to start my questioning with mr. cohn. so it's my understanding you advocate for weakening the title ix process in the context of investigating campus sexual assault. is that accurate? >> no. i mean, i wouldn't characterize it as weakening title ix at all. there's things schools should be doing morally and legally to make sure that campuses are safe

places. fact finding just is not really one of the thing that is are equipped to do well. >> okay. so but the title ix process provides for campus adjudicat n adjudications but you contend that those adjudications are ill equipped and therefore should be abandoned s. that a fair characterization of your position? >> i think that would be a fair characterization. there's a long track record of the injustices of accused and complainants when amateurs are handling these matters. >> you have a greater degree of confidence in law enforcement and the criminal justice system to handle these issues? is that true? >> so there's no doubt that the criminal justice system is imperfect but that's a -- for trying to fix and improve that. i have greater confidence in that system provides real tools and the actual structures that make sure that everyone's rights are taken into account. and that's so important because i want them to get it right. i want to make sure that if

there's a rapist on campus there's actual consequences, that take them off the street and protect people. >> you understand the criminal justice system isn't per if snekt. >> absolutely. >> there are examples in the criminal justice system of people who have been sentenced to the death penalty who subsequently been found to have been innocent. true? >> there's no system that is perfect. but the criminal justice system is dramatically better at doing this than campuses, again, because of the tools they bring to bear. >> the reason the criminal justice system -- >> not very good and awful. >> the reason it's imperfect, would you agree, the context of human ir ror and whenever you have humans involved in the absence of adequate training, sensitivity, preparation, mistakes will be made. >> absolutely. but that's why we have so many procedural tools in the criminal justice system to try to balance that out so individuals biassed

can't control that entire process, why we have meaningful appeals afterwards in the system to provide additional levels of protection for error that don't really exist in campuses where the appeal often goes to the same person that decided the case and so why the safe campus act is about no comingling of responsibilities. >> ms. maatz, could you comment on whether you think there's meaningful protections and or safeguards in the campus process as it relates to sexual assault outside of the availability of the criminal justice system. >> there are. that's the point of title ix and the cleary act of colleges and universities examine those situations when they occur an ento respond to them and respectfully i would say with mr. salmon's bill if you make reporting mandatory to the police, you have weakened title ix. end of story. you have already said it's not a parallel process. that's not it going to be an equal process in terms of the emphasis. so, that is a bill i think that

would weaken title ix an a time, quite frngly, when we need it to be strong and as much technical assistance as we can get from the department of education so schools can be the good actors they want to be. the reality is within the system they're supposed to have prevention training ongoing. they are supposed to be training the folks who will be hearing these kinds of issues. and they have a choice as to what kind of format they'll use in terms of administration hearing or student code of conduct. there's flexibility here so that they can match it to their school, match it to the circumstances, match it to their community so that they can get a just result. it is supposed to be impartial and fair and i do believe that it is. >> thank you. i would just note in closing azumi time is about to expire that it does seem to me the extent of imperfections in the extent of the campus adjudication process to mend it not end it. address issues perhaps indemonstratic to the fact that

human error exists in all contexts just like it exists in the criminal justice context. but we shouldn't abandon the entire process, particularly given a long history of a parallel process. the criminal adjudication process, the opportunity for people to pursue vindication through the civil adjudication process and which you pointed out uses a preponderance of the evidence standard the same exact standard used in the campus adjudication process. thank you for your testimony. i yield back. >> thank you very much. mr. alan, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madame chair, and thank you all for coming and sharing a -- of course, my kids say i'll old-fashioned. back in my day we didn't talk about things like this other than i'll tell you this. growing up, if i ever did anything to harm another -- a

woman, i had to answer to my father. and it was -- even my little sister, she could hit me and i couldn't hit her back. that's the way i was taught. i have three grown daughters, and, of course, for disclosure, i have a son and he attended wake forest university. and we were on the parent's con sell and i'll tell you this. they showed a film there to the parents council they show every freshman at wake forest college with the problems of alcohol. that was the scariest thing i've ever seen in my life. i tell you any freshman that saw that was prepared to see the consequences at least of misbehavior. having three grown daughters, you know, i understand -- i mean, when your kids go off to college, you pray they'll live through the experience, you know, because it's just -- you know? i mean, they're free to do things that -- of course, i went to college so i remember things

i did i shouldn't have done. new anyway, let me just say this that would it be appropriate, like i said, i knew the consequences of my actions. could colleges and universities -- and i know it's very difficult to get in wake forest, for example. i mean my son thought it was a great honor to attend that university. but i mean, can you read the riot act to the young men and just say, you know, these are things that if you do you won't be here next semester? dr. rue, would you -- i mean, is that -- i mean, looks like to me that this is a university -- the universities should set the pace on this and say, there are some things we're not going to put up with here wake forest. can you comment on that? >> i'd be happy to. i'll go back to cdc recommends. parental voice is one students

tune out at this time of their lives as they struggle for independence and to find themselves. what we would say is that -- and research shows -- if you approach men as brothers and boyfriends of people who might be assaulted, what you get is their empathy. and empathy is a much more powerful motivator than fear of some consequences and you know 18-year-olds think they're immortal so -- >> right. bullet-proof is what we called it. >> there you go. we -- we believe that engaging men in the prevention effort as coaches, as peers is way more powerful than finger wagging them. and mobilizing their maturity and their ability to care for their dear friends who have been assaulted, so treating them as potential allies rather than as

potential perpetratorspowerful. >> when my daughters have a date, i put the fear of god into them. that was the wrong idea? >> with you, sir, i think it might work. >> well, obviously, you know, we were vs. fortunate. but i have eight grandchildren and three on the way and -- >> congratulations. >> six of them are little girls an i have a 14-year-old and she is nearing high school now so i've had my little talk with her and but, you know, it seems to me that in so many cases that young men just don't know exactly right from wrong. i mean, they -- they've been raised in an environment they don't have a value system and then they commit a horrible thing and it's like, what have i done here? they really don't know until the consequences are forced on them. so i would please just let, you

know, your fresh men class know, i know that alcohol -- they showed us a film in high school, the state patrol did, about driving, you know, and of course, we didn't have texting back then or phones but basically not paying attention and the consequences of that and that stuff -- it does register and at least, you know, someone will know, gosh, i didn't know there was anything wrong with this. these are modern times or whatever. so, but anyway, anything else that ms. maatz or mr. cohn you would like to comment on how we -- we got to stop it. >> yeah. >> how do we stop this? >> well, and i think you have hit on a tee point in terms of getting men involved an enthe reality is when you're doing this kind of programming, men as allies not acusing, pointing fingers. we know that this happens. here's what you can do about it because you have sisters, you may have daughters, because you have friends that this could impact. that bystander intervention in

particular can be particularly effective with men because they can distract, they can have another conversation, and that peer pressure, you know, never pressure, you know, never underestimate the power of peer pressure. right now in some terms it's working against us in terms ofv the norms and stereotypes, and we need to make it work for us. and i think working with men in the process is a great way to do that. the other thing i would say is you need to bring in other folks from the entire community. not just athletics departments but the entire community. >> mr. cohn, i have to ask you to put it in writing, thank you very much. >> mr. cohn, is the problem that you have with the campus judicial process, is it the standard or what you consider to be a flawed implementation of the standards they use or both? >> i think both. >> so, it certainly seems reasonable that a school for its

own purposes might want to use a preponderance of evidence standard. or even a lower standard, perhaps a likelihood standard. i mean, we're talking about a private institution. and if i was running one, you might say oh, even if there's a 20% or 30% chance that it might happen, why wouldn't this institution use a lower standard than a preponderance of evidence. >> private institutions operate under different rules because the constitution doesn't necessarily apply. so that question's been answered in the public institutions in the due process is paramount and requires reasonable determinations which you don't get in the even lower standards of preponderance. prior to the deecht education -- >> so the lowest standard you can use under due process is preponderance? >> the lowest that can you use in a court -- >> but i think we're talking about, again, you're saying it would be a public university, can they say we want to use a

reasonable likelihood standard for purposes of expulsion or whether a student -- >> i don't think that would have any chance of satisfying a due process challenge. >> but a preponderance of evidence would. >> no, the preponderance of the evidence can in some circumstances pass and fail in others, depending on what provisions it's coupled with. >> it seems like we ought to provide more of a legal framework then that allows a reasonable standard or preponderance of evidence standard. if there were ten people accused and under a reasonable likelihood standard one or two did it, seems better to get rid of all ten people. depriving the life and liberty. we're talking about chance offing to some other plaanother.

gay men are more than ten times more likely to experience sexual assault than heterosexual men. what steps can schools take to ensure that sexual assault response teams and outreach is done in a culturally competent way regarding potential victims of sexual assault, including those who are marginally compromised and identify as lgbt? >> those statistics are horrible. the whole continuum of violence is something that we know lgbt people experience at a greater number. we have a tool that we can use for students to file a grievance if they'd like, to seek assistance. we've talked about having these advisers that can be helpful to students, telling them what their rights are, what the

process would be, helping them understand and talking about whether they want to file official charges or not. and all of that needs to be culturally kcompetent and understand that sexual assault is not just a heterosexual phenomenon. >> and along those lines we were talking about engaging the men. i want to talk a minute about male victims as well. what additional steps or outreach needs to be done with regard to reporting for male victims for whom there can be a whole other set of issues, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual assault or abuse? >> well, i think there's a variety of things that can happen. but i do think in this instance, technology is our friend. making sure that information that is culturally kpe tent on these issues is available to students, sent out to them regularly, that's on the website. that's available in the student code of conduct, in the health center, in places where gay

students socialize and congregate. making sure all that is available is huge. >> is it important to show that the potential victims of sexual assault can be of all genders and all sexual orientations as well? >> absolutely. so when you are dealing with the folks that need to be trained, that needs to be understood. how it applies not only in sexual assault but harassment based on gender identity as well. >> thank you, i yield back. >> thank you, madam chair, thank you for holding this very important hearing. thank you to the witnesses for being here as well. i'm the father of 12 and 11-year-old daughters and an 8-year-old son. we have several different college campuses in my district as well. you know, to reiterate what many of my colleagues have said, when parents send their children off to college, they deserve to know

that they should be safe. and frankly, if even one student doesn't feel that way or isn't that way, that's one too many. i wanted to give mr. cohn a quick chance to respond to the comments. let me ask the question this way. what can, given your testimony, what colleges and universities do to improve their disciplinary processes in an effort to be more fair? >> you know, our plan a would obviously have them not be doing that. our plan b will be where campuses are still adjudicating these cases it's important to include real, meaningful protections like access to counsel. they're not in a category of schools trying to sweep it under the rug, but they may not make the case technically well. so having a lawyer who can speak up for the victim is also helpful to them, to make sure the questions they want asked gets asked. that's number one. the no commingling rule.

so the person who does the investigation is not serving as judge, jury and fact finder. they can ensure that you have the right to question your accuser. it's important. we know that the ability to a confrontation type of clause is what helps us find truth. so there are ways that we can make it better. but i want to be clear about one last thing. we are not talking about expelling someone so they can go to another school. that is not what's going on. when students get expelled, it tracks them for the rest of their life. forget about getting a security clearance in this town. and, again, the statements are admissible against them in criminal court. you're having 18 year olds talk on the record about felonies that can put them in jail in virginia or missouri for the remainder of their lives. >> reclaiming my time, we all recognize that this is a serious, important crime needs to be dealt with, needs to be dealt with in a way that practically works.

i wanted to talk just a second and as congress is working through these issues, of course we have to deal, we have to work through the intersection of sort of local law enforcement issues and the campus-based disciplinary processes that are in place to deal with student discipline as well. and our legislation needs to recognize and accommodate those differences. so could we get some testimony on how to work through that? >> i'd be happy to at least pile on, if you will, on the issue. the goals and objectives of our internal discipline processes are different than those of the criminal justice system. and i think what's been lost over the last four and a half years in the efforts of government and other interested parties to make sure that there's accountability for sexual violence on our campuses is the waters are muddied right now about what is the purpose of an on-campus disciplinary

proceeding. i will not call it a judicial proceeding. we're not going to find someone guilty of a crime. we're going to be looking at conduct in the framework of our campus community and campus culture. as congress moves forward, as ocr moves forward, we need to tease out, and i address that in my written comments to the sub committee, we need to tease out, what is the purpose that you see for an on-campus discipline process. i can't speak for dr. rue, and i'd ask her to answer quickly on her own behalf, but i believe there are very different purpose, and please keep in mind that not every incident of a violation of our sexual misconduct policies is sexual assault. >> would you like to respond? >> yes, certainly. again, we are trying to determine whether or not we have a safe and effective educational environment and whether our policies have been violated. we are perfectly comfortable

with individuals choosing both pathways, choosing a criminal justice pathway and this pathway. but our goal is to make sure we can remediate our own environment if needed through understanding what the risks are. and to making sure that we are lowering barriers to individuals reporting right now. because that is our biggest concern. we know that the incidents established by polls and studies is nowhere near the number of reports, and we'd like to close that gap. and we don't believe that approach would do so. >> thank you for your testimony. >> thank you. the gentleman's time has expired. ms. bonamici you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. thank you for having me join your sub committee today. this is a topic that has been