smaller and the rate you get to is going to be lower. >> i have to introduce you to my wife, i think, because we're out of time. >> i don't have to say when. whew. >> 25 basic points next meeting. >> thank you to the panel. >> thank you. american history tv airs all weekend every weekend on c-span 3 and in primetime on weeknights when congress is in recess. we cover all periods of american history and a wide diversity of topics. at our website, you can watch all of our programs, find our tv schedule, see youtube clips of upcoming shows, and connect with us on twitter and facebook. this is american history tv, only on c-span 3. join american history tv on saturday november 7th, for tours and live interviews from the national world war ii museum in

new orleans. we'll explore the u.s.s. tang submarine experience. and we'll take your question for historians joining us from new orleans throughout the day. world war ii 70 years later live from the national world war ii museum beginning here at 11:00 a.m. eastern here on c-span 3. this monday, on c-span's new series "landmark cases," but 1830 the mississippi river around new orleans had become a breeding ground for cholera and yellow fever, partly due to slaughter houses in the area dumping their by-products in the river. the other houses took them to court. follow the slaughter house cases of 1873. we're joined by paul clement and michael ross, author of the book

"justice of shattered dreams," to help tell the history of this time period in the south, the personal stories of the butchers, as well as the attorneys and supreme court justices involved in this decision. be sure to join the conversation as we take your calls, tweets, and facebook comments using the hash tag landmark cases. live monday. for background on each case while you watch, order your copy of the "landmark cases" companion book. it is available for 8.95 plus shipping on c-span.org. american history tv was live from the camp sumter civil war military prison in andersonville, georgia, for a ceremony commemorating p.o.w.s who died there. our guest eric leonard, the former andersonville chief of

interpretation and leslie gordon, university of akron history professor. this program is about three hours. good afternoon. you're watching american history tv on c-span and you are looking at a historic image of camp sumter, also known as the andersonville prison. now we take you live to the andersonville national historic site and cemetery in andersonville, georgia, for the next three hours taking your phone calls and watching a commemorative funeral for the 13,000 prisoners of war who died here. joining us is eric leonard. he's the former chief of interpretation at the andersonvil andersonvil andersonville historic site. we are also opening up our phone lines so that you can join in on the conversation.

if to give us a call and ask questions, 202-748-7900 in the eastern time zones. if you want to send us a tweet, do so @cspanhistory. thank you for joining us this afternoon. >> it's my pleasure to be here. >> let's start with what is andersonville for someone who does not know. where does it fall? >> it's important to start with this idea that military prisons and prisoners of war are not part -- often are let out of the mainstream telling of the war because quite frankly there's no winners in this story. this isn't a battlefield.

it's something entirely different. valor and honor take different forms here. in the standard telling of the war, there's an acknowledgment, yes, there are prisons, prisoners of war, and then you move right back on to the battles. often there's -- in addressing this story, there's an acknowledgment of it and then no detail and then you move on. andersonville has a name brand recognition, a notorious nature the public often don't necessarily know any of the details beyond the name and something unusual took place there. >> so let's start with the ba c basi basics. when was it built? what was its purpose? >> in the fall of 1863 as the exchange system of the previous two years falls apart due to the presence of black soldiers in

the field and the question over how to treat black soldiers, the confederacy is faced with a problem. they've been consolidating their prisoners holding them primarily in the richmond area and 10,000 prisoners in richard -- richmond has a drag effect on that community. if you're in the confederate army or the government, those resources should go to the government to fight the war. if you're a civilian, you're thinking to yourself my family is hungry. why am i having trouble getting food? then prisoners in richmond -- richmond is one of the primary military targets in the war. there's a lot of fighting around the city. having union soldiers in richmond makes that target everyone more attractive, and so

the solution was to move the prisoners away. in november of 1863 there's this idea that southwest georgia is a very safe, very insulated place. it's far, far from the fighting. it's serviced by the railroad system of the south and this is an agricultural bread basket. food should be readily available. officers come here, locate a site in that expedition to find a site in some of the same modern concepts. we consider this idea of not in my backyard. the orders to locate a prison, specify an area that's essentially 100 miles north and south between fort valley, georgia, and albany, georgia. those are fairly big communities. you'll notice the prison didn't end up particularly near them. the county seat of sumter county

america sits seven miles south of where we're at, and that's a fairly well established community. there's 20 people living at the andersonville station, the train stop here. those people don't have political power, and there's willing landowners, who are absolutely ready to make the -- two of them make the deal. on paper, they're supposed to receive a rent of each about $50 a year from the federal government for leasing their property to build this massive facility. it's envisioned as a prison, 16-acre square, that is designed for a capacity of 6,000 to 10,000 prisoners. that's the number of prisoners already being held in richmond, enlisted prisoners, privates, corporals, sergeants. the intent is to move them from

richmond to here. construction begins in early 1864. by the end of february, prisoners are en route and then arriving here and the prison comes into being. >> 6,000 to 10,000 prisoners was the original intent. how many prisoners eventually ended up there? >> at its height, the one time capacity in the middle of august 1864 there's over 32,000 u.s. soldiers being held inside the prison. by that time, the original stockade had had a ten-acre expansion. that's built in the month of june and opened on the first of july. >> and so mr. leonard, could you follow up if you have that many people in such a confined space, what's living like there? give us a sense of the conditions and eventually what ends up to the prisoners there.

>> this is a forested part of south georgia, so to construct the prison, slave labor is used to clear cut the forest. the pine logs are rough hewn. the interior of the prison, the first prisoners that arrived describe it as a place where construction debris is clearly evident everywhere. there are stumps. there are branchs. it's a very disturbed place. there is no shelter. prisoners improvise shelter out of the debris that is present. one of the routines of the prison operation is a wood gathering details are allowed out daily. when you're gathering that wood, you're looking for two purposes. obviously one was firewood for

cooking, but larger pieces of wood, castoff debris, that's shelter building material. >> don't forget folks watching at home, if you want to contribute to the conversation and ask questions about the conditions at andersonville prison, how the prisoners were treated, now is the chance to do so to talk with our guest eric leonard. if you live in the mountain and pacific time zones, 202-748-8901. go ahead and make those calls. if you want to tweet at us, you can do so @cspanhistory. let's pretend i'm a prisoner coming to the prison. what's my day like? how am i processed into there and what happens to me after that? >> in the 14 months of the prison's operation, the answer to that question changes

dramatical dramatically. for those initial prisoners who arrive in late february of 1864 it seems strange when you know what comes later. they see andersonville as an improvement. it's better than libby prison or bell isle at richmond. it's an improvement. the weather in south georgia seems nicer. they've got a change of venue. they're kind of excited about that opportunity. as prisoners arrive, every prisoner that arrives here and leaves here does so on a train. the train is integral to this story, and when you're offloaded at the train station, the train itself, the train tracks, the train station are almost a half a mile to the west of the main prison compound, the stockade. and so there's a march, what some prisoners refer to as 800 paces to hell later on.

then outside of the gates closer to the main compound you're counted out. you're assigned into detachments and squads because roll call is a critical part of the daily experience of the prison. roll call is how the confederate command determines how many prisoners they have and what their disposition is. so they're counting the number of prisoners in the hospital, the number of prisoners inside the stockade, they're making daily lists of the number of prisoners who arrive, number of prisoners who transfer out, the number of prisoners who die, and they separate that out from the number of prisoners who die in the hospital and the number of prisoners who die inside the compound itself. >> as far as being in the general population with so many people, we can talk a little bit more at length about this later on, but give us a sense of

health conditions. were there clean facilities? give us a sense of what living like was on that front. >> one way to start with that is the hospital. in 14 months, there was a hospital. it's in three different locations. then there's sort of a fourth adjunct to that. for the prisoners, there's a separate prison facility for the prison staff. that was a compound frame with two-story structures. where the prison hospital starts is inside the compound itself. there's a sequestered area with tents and separate toilet facilities. and by may the confederate command has realized that's not a good idea. it's not working very well, so they move the prison hospital outside of the stockade itself

downstream of the prison. that is a compound that's fenced and has again tents as hospital wards. their perception is that moving it out of the prison compound and next to the stream will be a healthier space. it's important to note that the stream that they've moved it next to is the stream that flows through the hospital -- the prison compound itself. again, as originally built, 16-acre square, the creek, what we call prison branch or stockade branch today, enters the middle of the west side of the compound, flows through the wall. the creek is literally the single most geographic feature of the prison because it is the plumbing. the intention is prisoners will collect clean drinking water at that west side of the prison.

in the middle section of the prison, perhaps they'll bathe, clean themselves in the flow of the creek. and on the downstream side the creek is channelled into a structure that is a toilet. the intention of all of this is the flow of the creek will flush the toilet. the success of that is designed on an understanding in the 1860 of germs an bacteria, which is to say no understanding of that at all. what they don't know when they do this is they've create ed th perfect breeding ground for disdi dysente dysentery. >> we have calls. go ahead. >> caller: yes, sir. my question is why does

andersonville have such a bad reputation nationally in the overview of the civil war prisons in regards to elmira, which had a very severe death rate? just 4% or 5% less than andersonville, yet there was plenty of supplies available from the north with railroads that would supply the prisoners, yet andersonville gets such a bad reputation. >> it's really easy to answer. andersonville is the deadliest place on american soil. 13,000 american soldiers die here in 14 months. that is a death toll that cannot be compared to any other place. percentages are a trap. they've been used to create a sense of false equivalency. 3,000 men perish in a year at elmira. that is a grievous loss.

it's hard to defend. there's a complex of serious reasons why that occurs. in a single month, the month of august 1864 in andersonville, 6300 people die. survivors spend the rest of their lives coming to terms with what happens to them, what happens to their friends. families who lose their loved ones here struggle with what was it for. while 13,000 men die here, nearly 30,000 live. that's probably the bigger number. the survivors of this experience after the war comes to an end, they really struggle with what did it mean. how does it fit into the larger victory? it's not a traditional battlefield. there's not this sense of valor for your suffering.

in fact, prisoners of war until considered to be cowards, to be failures as soldiers. in that survivors' guilt is really something union soldiers struggle with immediately after the war's end. >> our next call, connie raleigh, north carolina. good afternoon. >> caller: yes. mr. leonard, i have a question. i recently watched the ken burns documentary on the civil war. and they stated in that document that the superintendent or the warden of andersonville was convicted of war crimes and he was hanged. i'd like to know what his name was. can you verify that for me, please? >> that's absolutely true. this is captain henry wurts. he's assigned here in march of

1864. he serves -- the command structure of the prison is in many respects dysfunctional by design. when you explore it, it makes no sense. there's a colonel that commanded the entire military complex here, because this is a really big place with at times thousands of confederate sold r soldiers here or moving through. you have supply depots at the train station and then the massive infrastructure to run the prison. you have a colonel in charge of that. underneath him, you have a series of departments that are essentially all overseen by captains. a quarter master for the non-flood suppliesupplies. a commissary for food. there's a chief surgeon who oversees the hospital operation. then you have this captain. his job is to oversee the operation of the prison. separate from that, the guard

forces that are here through most of the prison's operation are georgia reserves. a kind of form of militia. these are not combat ready troops. these are teenagers. these are old men who have little to no training, little to no discipline. then they were assigned on duty as guards at the stockade, captain wurts has authority over them. wurts is often absolutely frustrated with the quality of his guards. they have no discipline. they don't follow orders. he complains about them constantly. his hands are tied with that command structure. he's dependent on the quarter master for supplies, the commissary for food. so that roll call they're doing every day, once they have the roll call, they forward the number of prisoners to the commissary and the commissary officer has to provide the food

into the prison. food was delivered once a day. henry wurts is still on station, still here the first week of may in 1865 as the prison is essential lly blown to the wind. there are no prisoners. the guard staff is gone. the colonel fled to florida the week before. henry wurts is still here. that leads to his arrest on may 7th, 1865. he is transported eventually first to macon on to chattanooga and then finally washington, d.c. after his arrest and during that transport period, his escort at one point in chattanooga turned him over to the guard house, the federal guard house in chattanooga. that was a mistake. when the captain, who is escorting him, comes back, henry wurts has been beaten. he's been recognized by the men who were once in his care.

during his transport to washington, d.c., they end up shaving the beard off of his face so he's less recognizable because 30,000 men lived through this. they recognize him immediately. they're the ones in trying to figure out who to blame -- there's a larger command structure at andersonville, but prisoners don't see that. they see henry wurts every day, and they tell stories of the dutch captain, one of his many nicknames. he's tried at a military t tribunal in washington, d.c. from august 1865 until october. he's put to death november 10th, 1865. he's often described as the only confederate soldier to be put to death or tried for war crimes. that's not true. he's absolutely, positively the most famous. by the time of his execution,

he's the third confederate captain to be tried and executed for war crimes in 1865. >> mr. leonard, we are asking people to give comments and questions on facebook. claire larson writes in this morning on facebook saying there was a movie called "andersonville" and asking you if it was an accurate portrayal of the legal proceedings that followed the war and if it accurately conveyed the true nature of the internment. >> reporter: there's two films about us. tnt did a 1996 mini series about the prison that focuses on prison life and dramatizes a fairly early infamous moment in the prison's operation. the camp raiding and the prosecution and execution of a group of prisoners known as the raiders. separately, there was a stage

play in 1970 that was turned into a pbs film starting william shatner called "the andersonville trial." that was a dramatization of henry wurts. it drilled down to something -- it's a 14-month story and they drill down to something that is over and done one month before the worst moments of the prison's history. it's a very dramatic story. the story of the raiders ultimately has a very nice, neat, narrative arc. a beginning, a middle -- finally

their execution by fellow prisoners at the permission of not simply the prison authority but the confederate army all the way to richmond has okayed that. that's got a nice beginning, middle, and an end. the prison of war experience, the day in and day out of it nobody wants to watch it. you're hungry. you're dirty. you have to go to the bathroom. there's a lot of just sitting around and waiting on a fate that is very uncertain. and so the tnt film, the background detail is stunning. it's absolutely -- when i watch that, that's what i key into because it is a very accurate portrayal in the background of how people were trying to live here, struggling to survive. >> you're watching american history tv on c-span 3. we are learning about the andersonville prison and its role in the civil war.

our guest is eric leonard. you can call in and ask him questions. number is going to be on your screen. you can tweet us and facebook us too. lee in winchester, virginia, thanks for holding on. go ahead. >> caller: yes. hi, mr. leonard. i had a great uncle who was brought to andersonville. it's an open park, i believe. the days and times you're able to go to andersonville, are you able to get records and copies of your ancestors being there and the burial site? >> as a u.s. national park site, andersonville is open to the public daily. it's closed only three days a year and that's thanksgiving, christmas day, and new year's day. the grounds are open 8:00 to 5:00. the museum's hours are 9:00 to

5:00 -- 9:00 to 4:30 excuse me. the park maintains a database of people buried in the national cemetery and that includes the andersonville dead. there's a listing of andersonville prisoners, the dead and theeq> there are also listings, partial listings, of prisoners of war in other areas. the records are at the national archives. the most important historic documents for documenting union prisoners of war is their service record. the national archives has that. some of those records are starting to become digitized and are a little bit easier to access than writing or e-mails or going to the national archives. especially for the survivors, but even the dead in that

service record is a slip. it's a memorandum, a prison of war record. it identifies the capture date of the individual, often their circumstances of capture. it lists the various places they're held prisoner. one of the important things to remember is with most union prisoners held at andersonville this is one of at least three, sometimes as many as six, prison facilities they're held at in the space of a year. it's the biggest. it's the most famous far lot -- for a lot of reasons, but it's not the only one. so those national archive records are the first source, but during a visit you can use that database to look up a person. often, we do have copies of the service record or other items. this was an enlisted prison.

what's extraordinary about these prisoners, they're not famous people. they are the working men of the u.s. army, the marine corps, the navy. they're privates, corporals, sergeants. they're ordinary men. what's extraordinary about them is how ordinary their lives are after this thing that they experience. >> san jose, california, this is david. go ahead. >> caller: yes. hello. good morning. i was told that there was a medical doctor who would examine the prisoners before they were admitted to the camp and that supposedly he was a free mason. therefore if there were any free masons among the union prisoners of war, he would extract them from the line or pull them out of the line and they were not part of the population there at andersonville. is there any basis in fact to that? >> i can't recall if it's the doctor. the surgeons here change over

time. however, it's clearly documented -- this actually makes the story better. georgia officers, main line infantry officers of georgia who are free masons, they recognize the ring, they recognize the signs. these men, who under normal circumstances have -- their job doesn't bring them to the stockade. they walk in with care packages and names. many prisoners diary accounts -- prisoners notice this. after the war, i want to be a mason. that fraternity is one of a very small number of routes that mercy is being allowed into the prison and that's very important. thank you for bringing that up. >> that was david in san jose,

california. mr. leonard, as far as safety within the prison walls, how did that work having so many people confined in one space? >> there's little to no internal policing enforced by the confederate guards. what the guards do is the guards man the two entrance gates off the west wall. a north gate and a south gate, and they're named in their relationship to the creek. one is north of it. one is south of it. there are 52 towers around the stockade wall. what the guards do is keep you in. and so internal policing is left to the prisoners. if that sounds like a recipe for trouble, it is. camp robbing is almost constant part of the prison experience. early in the prison's operation,

raiders are raiding. it's a verb for camp robbing. raiding isn't what we think of it today. someone is stealing something from someone else. social networking in the 19th century sense. not facebook and twitter. but as a prisoner the more friends you have, the closer you stay together, the more likely it is your stuff is going to survive and no one's going to steal it and you're going to survive if you have someone else watching your back and looking out for you. >> let's go to charles in glen allen, virginia. go ahead. >> caller: yes. i have a question about andersonville prior to it existing. the north and south had prison exchange agreements. the south didn't have facilities or food and clothing to supply large numbers of prisoners whereas the north had unlimited supply and the north had more troops and the south had a limited supply of future troops.

and it was a war maneuver strategy brought to lincoln by his generals. stop paroles. stop prisoner exchanges. the south doesn't have the troop to replenish these. andersonville wouldn't have existed or chicago, elmira, or new york if not for lincoln's war strategy. >> it's not lincoln's war strategy. the cessation, the end of the exchange system, ties into the evolving nature of the war following the emancipation proclamati proclamation. the union army starts enlisting african-american men not simply by the thousands, but by the tens of thousands. and this creates a question. it's a cultural change. how do you treat these men? in the spring of 186 -- around that same time in 1863 the army, the lincoln administration are struggling with the changing nature of war.

they bring in a legal scholar by the name of francis lieber to develop for the first time a written law or code of war. they're taking evolving military tradition from 200 years in europe and in the united states the revolutionary war and their codifying it. the lieber code is critically important and often overlooked in american history and in world history. the geneva conventions copy entire sections of the lieber code, and so the lieber code survives in spirit today in these humanitarian protections for prisoners of war. buried within the lieber code is a very bold statement that in a sense is the first equal rights policy of the united states government. soldiers regardless of their

color are to be treated equally. it was a line in the sand and it was very provocative. the confederate army, the confederate congress, all adopt reactionary policies to this that state very bluntly captured black soldiers are to be treated as slaves and repatriated to slavery. and that policy is for months just talk. in charleston following an assault, 35 men of the 54 in massachusetts are chaptured. they're not killed. they're captured. what to do with them is the tipping point. the governor of the state of south carolina wants to try them

for war crimes and put them to death. the confederate army is decem r desperate that that not happen. the confederate government is desperate that that not happen. so these 35 minuen end up in th charleston city jail, which still survives today. throughout 1864 as the prison crisis, the prisoner crisis, gets worse and worse, every time the two sides negotiate, the united states representatives are very clear. all you have to do is treat them equally. that's it. the exchanges die on that one issue alone until really the very end of the war in the beginning of 1865.

>> mr. leonard how was segregation treated there in andersonville? what happened with blacks that were there? >> in the battle of lusty, florida, one week before the prison essentially comes into being, u.s. ct regiments fight a rear guard action that is instrumental in allowing the union troops, the bulk of the union troops, to retreat from the field. this is a confederate victory. approximately 50 prisoners are taken. they're not initially brought to andersonville. they're moved there at some point in the spring. they're kept separately. they live within the stockade as a group. later on they have a major among them, a white officer, major archibald bogle. his rank is disrespected.

he's thrown into an enlisted prison. he is denied medical care. he camps with the black soldiers. the following henry wurts's appointment as the commandant of the prison, the black soldiers are used as slave labor. every morning they line up and they count out and then they walk out. think about this for a minute. if you're a white soldier from iowa or indiana, prison is like an amphitheater. you have tall hills coming up from the creek. everybody can see that happening. those black soldiers are being treated than you. you are stuck in here. what you want is to not be stuck

in here and they walk out. they're being put to hard labor around the prison compound, and they are subject to punishments straight out of the plantation. if they refuse to work, if they give lip, they are beaten. they are whipped. and they are whipped in front of the other black soldiers. an extension of that is if you're a white soldier observing the prison operation, what you know of slavery before you came to the south to fight the war is what you read in a novel. if you attempt escape, they hunt you down with dogs. that's straight out of ms. stow's novel. a number of prisoners come to realize, wait, we're not slaves, but we're being treated like slaves. you build an empathy there, but

the black soldiers are being used as slaves for the prison operation. >> caller: i have a question about the trial of henry wurts. there's reports of many federal soldiers that wanted to testify on his behalf. they were not allowed to testify during his trial where other federal soldiers that were never in andersonville were allowed to testify against henry wurts. what do you have to say about that? >> a good example and leslie gordon may speak to this later today, sergeant major robert kellog of the 16th connecticut infantry, his entire regiment is held here. when he is released in exchange from south carolina in late 1864, he goes to camp parole.

he turns his journal, his diary, into a book. it is published in march of 1865 while the prison is a functional place. because of that book, he is called to testify. kellog testifies as both the prosecution and the defense. both sides speak to this one individual soldier and say we trust everything he says. he's very blunt about describing the conditions. he has a very specific story about henry wurts, an almost humorous merciful story that happens with kellog where he is out on a wood gathering detail. he asks permission to use his pocket knife to dig up a root as extra food. he's given that permission, but before he's done, he's told to leave. when he approaches the prison gate, he realizes he's left his pocket knife behind.

only a sergeant major would do this. he goes to the first officer he sees and says, sir, i need to get my pocket knife and it's henry wurts. an individual prisoner walking back to the south gate entrance with henry wurts on horseback. everybody notices this. the place kind of stops in that minute. captain wurts cracks a joke. they think you're up to something, he says. that's in sergeant kellog's book and in his testimony. when we think about the trial, 150 witnesses testify over the three months of the trial. the bluntest of them, the most

accusatory of them tend to be the 50 or so confederate officers, confederate guards, confederate officials, and confederate civilians. they're the ones that speak very plainly to break downs within the chains of command and in assigning responsibility. >> here is evan from indian wells, california. evan, go ahead. okay. let's move on to joanna. hi there. >> caller: hi. i have a question. i'm going to tell you my story. i had a great, great uncle who served in the union. and he was under george custer at richmond.

then he transferred down to andersonville. he was there from july to november until he was pardoned up to maryland because of his dysentery and malnutrition where he died and that's where he's laid to rest. it's interesting. i did get my uncle's civil war records and they're phenomenal. if anyone is out there to try and get records, they are there. they're very detailed. they're excellent, but my question is while my uncle was down at andersonville, during that summer, some of the union soldiers were stealing from each other food, whatnot, just survival type things. and a book i have on andersonville lists my uncle as being a judge during the trial of these soldiers. i was wondering if there could

possibly be any sketches or photographs available of any of those kind of trail incidents with the union soldiers? >> within andersonville, there's really the only one trial, the trial of the raiders, which takes place in the last days of june 1864, so there aren't any drawings of that. especially in the later prisoner memoirs published by the 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s they talk about the raiders in great deal. what there are drawings of is the execution of the raiders. in a place where every day was like the day before and the day after and the only thing that's really different is what the weather is, the execution of a small number of prisoners by other prisoners, that's a big deal. 23,000 people watched that.

there are drawings of the gallow structure itself. there are contemporary drawings of the men being hung. there are many drawings a generation after the fact of that particular moment. >> james is up next. hello. >> caller: hi. earlier this year, i went to andersonville with my boy scout troop. i want to hear about the barter system they had between the prisoners and the guards and also the raiders were buried separate from all the other graves. can you tell me about that? >> absolutely. officially, according to policy, regulation within the prison, prison trade -- guards trading with prisoners is prohibited, which means, of course, it happens all the time. there's a pretty slick black

market, especially early on in the spring and summer as prisoners are leaving the compound on wood gathering details or paroled prisoners who are doing work outside the main stockade. they will often interact with civilians, women, coming to sell vegetables. we have descriptions of sweet potato pies being sold. if you're a prisoner coming from the battlefield that spring or early summer, you may have greenback u.s. currency, union currency. that's an illegal object in the confedera confederacy. you're not supposed to have it, which means there's an amazing black market. the confederacy managers a store in the prison during most of the operation. a georgia officer is bringing in goods and selling goods. one of the photographs of the

prison clearly shows this sort of lean to structure. that's the tipping point. the street off the north gate, it's original name was north street. it becomes known as market street because in addition to the store, prisoners are creating their own stores. they're trading real estate within the prison. if you have a skilled trade, say you can repair boots or repair watches, you're doing that. one of the prisoners who does testify for the defense claims that it's possible to get a dinner. there are prisoners making food and producing food. there are barbershops within the prison, so there is a free market economy. and it's a reminder that we perceive andersonville as a hopeless place. these men have ingeneralije ind.

those six men in late june when a rival gang is created to put an is committed to put an end to the camp robbing, the regulators, quite frankly they're a vigilante gang. they go to prison command saying you have a problem, you'll let us fix it if you let us identify them. the regulators go around saying that's a raider, that's a raider. those prisoner trials dismiss most of them, about 70 or so, and accounts vary, are made to run a gauntlet back to the prison and they're severely beaten. one of the prisoners through the gauntlet dies because of the injuries sustained. that leaves six. and the so-called ring leaders

of the raiders, one of these soldiers has been a prisoner in andersonville for two weeks. he's not a ring leader of anything. he made a powerful enemy. those men after their execution, because of the dishonor of their act, stealing from other prisoners, beating other prisoners, they're executed for that. they are -- in a sense, they're disho raably discharged and executed. who is doing the burying at andersonville? prison labor. those six men are buried in dishonor. black soldiers dying at andersonville are not buried separately. they're buried in the trenches along with everybody else. to the prisoners doing the burying, a black soldier who's died is a soldier.

those six raiders, they lost the right to be buried with their fellows and they remain today segregated graves away from the other graves. they are separate in their dishonor. >> you were talking about prison life, mr. leonard. in our world the word deadline means one thing. what was the deadline of andersonville prison and why was it famous? >> the deadline doesn't originate in anderson but it is an invention of the civil war military prison system. prisons north and south have deadlines and those deadlines take various forms. at andersonville it's a simple fence, posts with the boards connecting them. in some places over the creek, sometimes the deadline is not obvious. sometimes prisoners steal the boards for firewood or for shelter building. and the recall is of course if

you cross the deadline, guards can shoot you. and yet the photographs taken in august of 1864 that illustrate the prison at its height clearly shows shelters tied to the dead line. and so andersonville is also a place of great contradiction. in some of the northern prison it's a ditch or a line of posts where at night they put candle lanterns on. a line that if you cross you're going to get shot at is the sort of thing that should haven't any ambiguity. clearly sometimes it does. >> next call is mike from california. you're on with our guest eric leonard. >> caller: thank you for the program. i find it interesting and helpful. i have a two-fold question. i wanted to know what happened to the prison site when the war

ended? was it left or torn down and the fields farmed? what happened to the prison generally. and second, i know there was a photographer, and i think his name might have been radell and he came and took pictures of the prison after the war ended. i wonder if there's any magazine article or book that described that. >> the ghosts and shadows of andersonville is a book that -- it's a valuable book because it's not a narrative history of the prison. it is exploring various components. there's a chapter in that book that focuses on, you know, our traditional pronunciation. it's andrew jackson riddle. he's a photographer. those photographs aren't after the prison. they're smack-dab in the midding, right about august 16th, 1864. and we don't have him to ask,

but in a sense those pictures were probably taken for propaganda purposes. a weak before there had been a terrible flood through the middle of the prison that had breached the wall through the cre creek. that's not shown in the photographs but the photographs very carley show how tightly pack packed the prisoners are. you can see what is essentially a brand-new reconstructed structure that channelled the creek through for the toilet. and so the humbling thing in those photographs is the men sitting at the sink, at the toilet. they were captured for posterity doing something that none of us want to be photographed going. that's part of that. now in terms of what happens to the prison after, it's left in place. there's an army guard here,

very, very quickly. and there's an army quarter master expedition that arrives here in late july and stays for about three weeks into mid august. that quarter master expedition is commanded by carpet james moore who, by this time, has already established two battlefield national cemeteries in virginia. and they -- their focus is not the prison site. there are two risks at the prison site. but the army guard that accompanies them is protecting all of the property. that expedition that establishes the cemetery, they take the original boards that just bore a number and replace them with wooden head boards that bear number, name, regiment and date of death. and accompanying that expedition very famously is calara barton.

she uses her power, her leadership with the missing soldiers office to invite herself on captain moore's expedition. and one of the dramas of that expedition is those two leaders, clara barton and carpet moore, are at loggerheads the entire time. they're fighting over who is going to get credit for the work at andersonville. and that speak to the two of them in quite frankly not flattering ways. the army does the work of using the captured records, the death records that they have with them with that expedition. dorence atwater, the most famous of the patrolled prisoners of andersonville, he served as a clerk in the prison hospital. he was within of a half dozen boys who were keeping the death register, other records of the hospital complex. dorence atwater is famous and rightly so for one of the

bravest acts of conscience in the entire american civil war. in mid august, 1864 when 100 men are dying a day, he thinks to himself, if my government knew, they would stop this. he commits an act of bravery. he makes the choice when the chief surgeon is not present to start copying the entire death register. it's a small office. his fellow parole clerks, they see what he's doing, they know what he's doing. they don't tell. a couple of them copy the idea. the difference is one like solan hyde copies the death register from his own state. dorence atwater was thinking about the thousands of families across the country who might not know otherwise. >> we are -- >> go ahead. >> i'm sorry to say we're just minutes away from special ceremonies there at

andersonville. >> indeed we are. >> we can take one more call. this is linda from jeffersonville, indiana. go ahead with your question or comment and jump right in. go ahead. >> caller: i had three relatives that died at andersonville. and when my husband and i went there to visit, i found out that they said that the section where men were buried standing up and that was because a lot of men had died at the same time and so they just buried them all together but they buried them standing up. u was wondering if that was true. and because the men died at the same time, was there a battle or an illness that swept through the prison. thank you. >> from the records that describe -- that provide us insight into how the burying was done, that's prisoners telling us. they're not burying them

standing up. they're burying them shoulder to shoulder lying down. they're digging a trench about three and a half to four feet deep. at times they're putting a board underneath and a board above the bodies. they don't -- maybe as many as the first 50 to 100 burials are actually in caskets. after that they realize they don't have time. so those boards provide a little bit of protection to the body, prevention of essentially the grave settling or collapsing. and each body is numbered. they put the head board with the number on it. august is the deadliest month. the death rate is highly variable until august. august is the perfect storm because of the heavy fighting in two places, around richmond and then as sherman is edging ever

closer to atlanta, the prison population is booming, the lack of an exchange or other facilities is starting to create a serious challenge. and it's in that moment when 1,000 people are dying a day, you're depending on their friends to identify their bod s bodies. there are no dog tags. it's during that moment they stopped putting the boards down -- to cut the boards to protect the bodies requires men that they need to keep digging trenches to keep up with the demand of the task. >> gotcha. i think we're going to have to leave it there. thank you so much for you participation educating us about the events of andersonville. we've been joined by eric leonard telling us about it. thank you for being part of our coverage today. >> it's my honor really. we're glad to have you all here.

the service that's about to happen is going to be really special. >> and we're going to take you to that service later on in the program. today we're going to talk with professor lesley gordon about other events. but for now we go to andersonville at the prison sit

site. good afternoon. if you can go ahead and take your seats, we'll get started.\ good afternoon. if you can go ahead and take your seats, we'll get started.s good afternoon. if you can go ahead and take your seats, we'll get started.

good afternoon again. i'd like to take this opportunity to thank the maneuver center of excellence brass quintet for their musical selections. their music continues to enhance our programs each year. [ applause ] on behalf of the national park service, i welcome you to andersonville national historic site and to andersonville national cemetery. my name is charles cellars and as the park superintendent i have the honor and privilege of serving today as the master of ceremonies. this weekend is the capstone event of the 150th anniversary of camp sumter military prison called andersonville. many of you have traveled hundreds of miles to join us today and on behalf of the park

we sincerely thank you for being here. i invite you to stand as the georgia army national guard advanced the color. after the colors are posted, please follow me in reciting the pledge of allegiance. will you please stand.

please join me in the pledge of allegiance. i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

>> please be seated. we now turn our attention to the arrival of the ceremonial casket executed by georgia state bag piper dan bray, deputies from the hall county georgia sheriff's office and members of the united states army, navy and marines.

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