the islamic population up there in chicago. i was there for 40 years. it started without 40,000 and in a year it was a budget of $1 million. and people saw that example more and more mosques wanted to be affiliated with that. they wanted to be part of the success story. so i believe it's changing. at s

nazi atrocities. get our complete schedule at c-span.org. and now joining us on "the washington journal" is a professor at the harvard law school, former democratic presidential candidate as well. before we get into our issue of campaign finance reform, you probably heard some of the first segment this morning talking about the issue of race on college campuses. you teach at harvard. what's your take on what's going on, what happened at missouri, et cetera? >> i think this a microcosm of a much more fundamental inequality, institutionalized, that has spread throughout our society. and my campaign was targeting that, the way we have let

democracy become radically unequal. that manifests itself throughout our political and social system. i think this is the critical issue that we have to find a way to rally political support to affirm the equality of citizens which has manifested the inequality throughout our society. >> how and why did you run for president? >> well, i think we have at the core of our democracy a failed institution, institution sitting right over there, congress. failed in the sense that it no longer represents the people. it is no longer representative because of the way we fund campaigns, because the way politically gerrymandering creates radical inequality and polarization inside the house. this system that we have allowed to develop has produced not a democracy, not even a government that can function. my concern is even though

candidates in my party were talking about the influence of money and politics, nobody was talking about how we could fix this crippled and corrupted congress. and that we need to fix at first if we have a chance to do the other things we're talking about. so what i wanted to do in this sprint of this improbable campaign was to in a very short time get to the level that would allow me to be in those debates and in those debates make this the issue the central issue that the democratic address. >> campaign finance reform? >> what >> that's what you say and that's the way it's framed. the way we fund campaigns is a critical part of why we don't have a representative democracy. 158 families have given half the money that's been contributed in this political cycle so far is the measure of the inequality, unrepresentativeness in our political system, but it's not

just that. it is also the way we allocate power in the house of representatives. it is just the way we suppress the ability of people to vote with voter id systems. we no longer live up to the standard of a representative democracy that respects the equality of citizens. >> at what point did this inequality occur? was it written into the constitution? is it the last 22 years? >> america is the history for striving for equality in so many dimensions. the framers of the constitution were not aware of the needs for racial equality. they certainly didn't even understand the need for sex equality. they won't know what% orientation equality was. the framers of our constitution were very sensitive to the basic quality of citizens. when madison described the government that the constitution would create, he said we would have a congress that would be,

quote, dependent on the people alone, an exclusive dependence. then after describing that exclusive dependence on the people he went on to say by the people, he meant, quote, not the rich, more the poor. their conception of the republic, the representative democracy they were creating, it would have a basic equality of citizenship. now what we have allowed to happen and i think really just primarily in the last 20 years is the evolution of all sorts of inequality in the basic way our government functions. and the consequence of that is a corrupted and crippled institution of congress. we have all these candidates promising the moon as if we lived in a dictatorship. yeah, we're going to have a $15 minimum wage. we're going to take on the banks and break them up. what you know and what we know

is we don't get change unless you actually get congress to enact it. and we won't get congress to enact it so long as congress is focused obsessively on what they need to do to raise the money to get back into power. >> why were you not allowed to participate in the democratic debates? >> i don't know. we launched our campaign against the background of the congress that the rules of getting into the debates were 1% in three national polls six weeks before the debate. we were told repeatedly those rules were not going to change. we didn't make that in the first debate. the pollsters wouldn't include my name the polls. if they had just included the names in the polls, i would have qualified.

okay. i didn't make the first debate. we got to the second debate. it was pretty clear we were going to qualify. monmouth had a poll. nbc had a poll. both 1%. but the three they would have counted all had me at 1%. then at the end of the week before i withdrew, the democratic national committee contacted our campaign to say actually it wasn't three polls within six weeks. it was three polls at least six weeks before the debate, which meant i couldn't have qualified. when i said i couldn't run because of this change, there was all sorts of outrage because of that. cbs modified the rule again and said it wasn't 1% in three polls. it was greater than 1% in three polls. so the goalposts were moved. had the goalposts not been moved, i wouldn't been here in washington today. i would be in iowa prepared for

the debate tomorrow. >> our guest is lawrence lessig. the forms are going to be up on the screen if you want to participate in this conversation. it's about campaign finance reform. it's about what he calls inequality in our political system and in representation and some of the other issues in the political arena. let's begin with a call from jack in hyattsville, maryland. jack, go ahead. >> caller: hey, good morning. thank you for the effort of the guest. what a noble idea to get the money of the politics. it could be doing just so much good elsewhere. and i think that as well as in the backdrop of things, so much that's wrong with the government hinges on this majority versus the minority and the short term, the shortsightedness of things.

the rules committee can say eight years from now when we don't know who is going to be in power, who is going to have the sway, let's write rules that would be fair and get rid of things like unrelated amendments to bills, forcing 1,000 page bills through in one or two days, the filibuster. something passes one house and it is not even brought to a vote in the other house. it could be so fair. and alien would look at this system, especially the fox in the hen house situation with so much money and special interests influencing these political officials. that's my comment. >> got your point. >> i think the point about short-termism is really important. this is a city where elections are basically every two years. what's happened is that the

campaign time has evolved from basically six months before the election to 24/7 from one election to the next. so no longer is there actually a time when congress gets to govern perpetually. they're in this constant mode, this constant permanent war mode, where they spend all this time calling donors. the estimates come from 30% to 70% of their time raising money. they're calling out the other side as being the devil. when you spend all your time referring to the other side as the devil, it's pretty hard to turn around and work with those people to actually get anything done. i think the critical thing we've got to be focusing on is how do we begin to get people who can think about what makes sense for america rather than what makes sense for my party to get control of congress in the next two years. >> sea of tranquility tweets

into you, in history when has there ever been equality? equality is only achieved with a planet of clones. difference is the beauty of l e life. and that is a tweet. if you can't get through on the phone lines and you want to tweet, @cspanwj is the twitter address. >> when i'm talking about equality, i'm talking about equality of citizens. and that idea is different from the idea that we are equal in our abilities, equal in our wealth, equal in our prospects, equal in absolute opportunity. we have all sorts of inequality in society and some of that inequality we should celebrate. we should celebrate the inequality that comes from hard

work. people should be equal before the law. people should be treated equally. in my view, i'm obsessed with equality not because i'm in some deep sense an egalitarian. i believe in it. i think it is important. the reason i care about equality is the corruption we have in our system right now is a product of the inequality in our system right now. if we could create a representative democracy again, one where congress wasn't obsessed with what the tiniest fraction of the 1% cared about, then we could have a government that would work again. the disease of our government is the cronyism that comes from the corruption of this political system. >> eric is calling in from arizona on our independent line. hi, eric. what would you like to ask? >> caller: i have a question and

a couple of comments. the question is, this is not a democracy. it's a constitutional republic. if he's so worried about the individual, that's why the forebears made it a constitution of the republic. i'm curious about what he thinks of benjamin franklin. thank you. >> i borrowed ben franklin's glasses. i'm a big admirer of franklin obviously, but let's be issue about this issue of democracy versus republic. the framers gave us a republic. by the republic that meant a representative democracy. it is one kind of a democracy like a red apple is one kind of apple. when people refer to america as a democracy, they should not believe america is a direct democracy. i believe in a representative democracy. when i say we don't have the democracy the framers intended, what i mean is we don't have a representative democracy because

in this democracy citizens are not equal. citizens aren't equal in the 345 districts in the house where the seats are safe seats, where the majority party basically controls that seat, whether it's a democrat or a republican seat, meaning 89 million americans have no effective representation in those districts because they know their views could never be representative because they're in the minority party. the way these are inequalities that mean we don't have a representative democracy, which means we don't have a republic anymore, which is why my book is called "republic lost." >> and this book is new? >> i wrote 70% of it and it just came out last month. >> still the name same?

>> yes. >> hi, john. >> caller: morning. my question to you is how are we going to stop this knowing the obama administration stopped the keystone pipeline, not knowing that warren buffet gave millions of dollars towards the administration. there's a railroad called the santa fe railroad that comes from canada all the way down to texas. all that oil is being pushed through the railroad. that's why the keystone pipeline was stopped. there's also congressman in washington that are taking money from terrorist groups. there's one terrorist group in pennsylvania. the only reason why i know that is because i grew up not too far from that area. how are you going to stop the situation of, you know, the corruption that is getting worse and worse throughout the united states and throughout washington

itself? >> it's a great question because it brings out exactly the problem with the current system we have right now. right now, whenever you see a decision you disagree with, we run to they must have made that decision because of the money. i think it is completely fair to point out whatever financial interest may have benefitted the democrats when he made that decision and the same thing the other way around. we have no reason to believe that the decision are being made in the interest of america as a whole. we have every reason to believe decisions are being made to benefit the funders. i own all you people, and i own you because i've given you money and i know you're going to return the favor in exchange. he's been in the system and he told us what the system was like, as if we needed donald

trump to tell us that. we all believe this government is corrupted, that these politicians are bought. until we change the way we fund campaigns, that belief won't change. if that belief doesn't change, whatever government does, we have no reason to get engaged democratically to respond to it. we just sit back in our cynical way on the couch saying that's just politicians in the way politicians are always behaving. >> are any candidates speaking to you? >> every one of the democrats have on their websites and in their policy papers policies, which if enacted, would address this problem. they're not out there explaining to the american people this is what we have to do first. it's just not credible to talk about breaking up the banks when wall street and the financial

industry is the number one contributor to congressional campaigns. when "the new york times" reviewed the health proposals of the different candidates and they talked about bernie sanders single payor health system, they were so derisive of what this proposal was they wouldn't give it a paragraph's consideration not because it was a bad idea, but because industry opposition would be so overwhelming that it would never have any chance of getting anywhere. if that's true, why does industry opposition matter so much? it only matters because of the money the industry puts into the system. until we find a way to address that fundamental corruption, we can't do the things that democrats are talking about. the democrats are the party of yes in this debate. we're trying to bring about changes. if you want to keep the status quo, this is a pretty good system for producing that because stalemate and veto is the default way the system

functions. >> lawrence lessig interned -- clerked i should say with justice scalia and with richard po posner in tchicago. some would say those are rather conservative credentials. >> scalia at the time would have a liberal clerk, which everybody else would beat up on, but i was the person in the chamber who was charged with making the argument from the other side. the great thing about clerking in the supreme court is 60% to 70% of those cases are unanimous decisions, so most of it has no political flavor at all. most of it is just finding out what the right answer is. >> did the other justices do

that? did they also look for an opposing view? >> when i clerked, it was a rare thing for a judge to do that. i'm not sure what justice scalia's current practice is, but most of the other chambers were pretty unified. >> you know judge posner. please comment on his cerecent doubts that the 14 amendment contains information on birthright citizenship. >> it is a completely destructive debate to be having right now. america is filled with americans who deserve to be citizens and we ought to be talking about the fastest way we can move the hard working americans in this society to becoming citizens and birthright is one way, but i think we have to talk about other ways too. >> tim is in west milton, ohio. democrat.

hi, tim. >> caller: hi. good morning. my question is, if the citizens united decision of the supreme court is the law of the land, should we all be paying -- shouldn't we all be paying off of the same tax schedule, corporations and individuals the same? i'll wait for my answer. thank you. >> it's a great question. it brings out really the fundamental protest in american history, which is no taxation without representation. that principle you might say in a world where so much corporate money is driving political decisions should produce a response for citizens to say, why should i be paying taxes in

a system where i'm not fairly represented? indeed, some conservatives in the reform movement, a guy named richard painter, who was george bush's ethics czar, now a professor of law in minnesota, has proposed a system to change the way campaigns are funded giving everybody a $200 voucher to fund campaigns. the name of the proposal is no taxation without representation act. his argument is in this system the representatives are responding to their funders of campaigns. so long as american citizens are not the funders of campaigns, we won't be represented. the only way we can be represented is if we are funders of campaigns. >> richard is in austin, texas. independent line. richard, you're on with lawrence lessig. >> caller: good morning.

i'm a retired history teacher, and what bothers me right now is we no longer have a government of and by the people. it's governed by the corporation. germany set up a system very similar to our system now in the 30s. they started killing off the retarded people. we put mentally ill people in prisons. they lived off whatever they could and were hungry. they did them under. then they came after the jews. my theory is the christian people in the united states are

starting to get christianity to go in the direction to hate others. >> any comment for him? >> yeah, we need historians in this debate because it is important to remember that what we look back at and call fascism really had two important -- many strains, but two important strains in it. one part is the racism that eventually manifested itself in the holocaust. many other people were targeted by fascists as well. but the other part of fascism, the corporatism in governance, was a part of fascism that america toyed with as well. the first new deal in the united states was the similar model of turning over much of the regulatory structure of the recovery act to private corporations and private unions

that would collude to try to write the rules that would make sense as they saw it for our future. now, of course, that part of the new deal was struck down by the supreme court. i think rightfully so, but we should remember any time we are tempted to turn government power over to private interests, private interests will overwhelm the government and steer government power in a direction that benefits them. this is what conservatives call cronyis cronyism. politicians are so dependent on campaign funds that they do anything they can to make sure that their funders are happy. what that means is the business model of corporations in america increasingly includes how do we come to washington and get special favors from washington to benefit ourselves so that we could increase our profit margin

substanti substantially. that cycle, economy of influence, that we have allowed to develop is something we have seen historically throughout our past, but it seems we never learn from that past and build the protections into the system to avoid it repeating itself. >> i'm sure you've seen this column by johnathan bernstein of bloomberg. lessig never gave anyone reason to believe he belonged in the major candidate candidacy. >> in the democratic party, as in the republican party, there's a fundamental fight about whether insiders should control or whether we should allow outsiders in. and of course the perspective

that i wanted to bring to this was not just one issue. it's not like i came in and talked about climate change as the most important issue or economic equality as the most important issue. my point was none of the issues anyone was talking about had no hope of progress unless we addressed this fundamental issue first. saying that requires i call out some of the most important and powerful people on the inside, like congress, as i've said here today. the failed institution in our government is congress. and if you depend on the insiders to make that point, it's never going to be made. that's the point. it's never going to be made. if we were in a completely well functioning democracy where the system was actually working and people were actually being represented, i would be in the school of let's just let the politicians deal with this. let's let the politicians solve

the problem, but we're in a system where the politicians cannot cure themselves. and what we need in that is an outsider who steps up and says here's who you we need how we ne system. the republicans seem to be open to this. i think the democrats should be more open to the idea that maybe it's time to bring a principle from outside this government to inside this government to restore it. >> would you consider running for president again? >> look, i'm going to do whatever it takes. i took a pretty substantial risk. the one thing we were certain of is it would be expensive and i would be ridiculed for doing it. i knew if i could at least get

into those debates we would have a chance to change the dynamic of this election. and what our polls showed us is that the voters, especially democratic voters, care deeply about this issue. really for the first time almost since watergate, there was a poll asking voters if the next president were certain to do just one thing, just one thing, what should that one thing be. by far the number one issue that democratic voters identified was fixing the corrupt way we fund campaigns. i'm going to do whatever i can to make this issue a central issue that finally our government will address. if that's running again, i would do it again in a heart beat. the thing i was most surprised about when running for president is how rewarding and how incredibly fun it is to talk to these voters about issues, whether it is in a group of 5, 20, or speaking to 100 people.

that interaction is the most rewarding thing i've ever done. >> is your go fund me still open? >> of course, the website still accepts contributions right now. we'll be closing down by the end of the month. but yes absolutely. >> jeff is in frederick maryland. republican. you're on with harvard professor lawrence lessig. >> caller: hey. i really enjoy your show. i think you've hit the nail on the head, professor. you know, we've got a lot of pundits and philosophers that are up there on stage. you're right in the fact they're all influenced by their funders, by their campaign funding organizations, groups, or what have you. i think that's what trump's success here is. he really isn't influenced by this outside entities. and he's a businessman.

that's what we need in this country. we've got some good people from good people running. we've got hillary and even bernie sanders has got a couple of good ideas. not many, but a couple, i feel. if we took all the ideas and just put a good businessman in the position of -- >> jeff, are you supporting donald trump at this point? >> i have to because he doesn't have that outside influence. >> and you like the fact that he's self-funded? >> caller: i really do. he might have some personal things that he's trying to put forth, but the fact that he is self-funded is really the way -- there's no big money behind him that's speaking for him. >> in fact, "the new york times" recently reported 158 families in the u.s. have contributed half of the campaign cash for

2016. >> i think this point is so fundamental and it's so clearly missed by people inside the beltway here in washington. i think this is exactly why donald trump is so attractive to many people on the right. they look at this system and they say these guys are all b t bought. some people say he has crazy about exporting a million people from the united states, but i'm willing to accept his crazy ideas as long as we have somebody that is not beholden to this money. this would be someone in government not worrying about what his funders cared about, but instead pursuing what he thought was the right idea. i don't believe in the things he's trying to push. but he's right. we have to have a government filled with people who are not

dependent on funders to get into government. the solution donald trump has is we elect billionaires. that's the idea we fought a revolution against. that's an aristocratic idea which we sent back to britain. so i think we need a system where representatives are independent. they're able to do what they think is right according to the views of the voters in their distri district. we need a system where we can elect ordinary people to government and the only way we can get that is if politicians begin to have the guts to use words that talk about the change that would make that possible. words like citizen-funded or public-funded elections, which would radically change the funders influence on our system now. >> caller: good morning. how are you doing? >> great.

>> caller: okay. i keep hearing the republicans say we're going to make america great again. when you have white supremacy, slavery, and racism ever since george washington, when w america great? thank you. >> yeah. this is a great, great question. here's what i think is great about america. it has had at its core ideals that it has not yet lived up to and as martin luther king said in his speech at lincoln university june 6th, 1961, he said america is a dream and the dream is expressed in the sublime words of the declaration which said all are created equal. that equality is something that we have not yet achieved. in my view the great injustice of american history is race

inequality for 400 years that been fighting in america this should have been obvious from the beginning, the equality of people regardless of race. that is the great injustice of america. but in the context of that injustice, what we have also held is an ideal, an ideal that we are constantly aspiring too. a dream that king said that is not yet realized, but that we will still fight to realize. the campaign that i was pushing was an expression of that ideal. i believe that the core value of a representative democracy is equality, and i wanted to have a campaign, a rally, around the idea of equality. the equality that would end the incredible injustice that makes it even necessary for people to

rally around a slogan like black lives matter. the inequality that makes it so the vast majority of americans don't believe that their government has anything to do with them. those inequalities are completely anathema to this core value at the heart of our constitutional tradition, and what we need to do is continue the fight for that core value. that is the greatness, that we have that ideal at the heart of who we are, even if we haven't yet come close to representing it in the practices we've built. >> stella tweets in to you. doesn't your idea for campaign finance reform take away my right to spend what i want wherever i want? >> no, it doesn't. the way i've been talking about this issue and the way frankly most progressives talk about this issue -- in my view the

solution that we have to be fighting for is not about restricting anybody's ability to speak. it's about increasing the opportunity of more people to participate. so i support, for example, the idea that richard painter was talking about. where we take the first $50 of everybody's taxes and rebate it to them in the form of a voucher which they can use to fund campaigns. that's not restricting anybody's speech. if you return that first $50, what you have done is you have now increased the number of people who are speakers in the funding stage of political elections. if you change that dynamic and you made it so candidates for congress were worried about what a million people thought rather than what a thousand people thought, you would produce a congress that was much more spon responsive to the people. i believe that the decisions in

the supreme court that have led to the creation of the super pac are mistaken. i think the supreme court is going to fix that within the next five years. i don't believe that it will ultimately be necessary to do more than do the core thing i think we must do tomorrow, which is to change the way campaigns are funded by radically increasing the number of people who can participate in the funding of campaigns but bottom up public funding. >> brenda, petersburg, virginia, democrat. you are on the air. >> caller: good morning, america. and good morning, world. first let me give you a little biography. i have three things i want to talk about. mr. lessig is completely correct. i'm a black woman, single parent, retired schoolteacher, who grew up under segregation and jim crow.

i was against the vietnam war. i was against the draft. but right now we need to bring back the draft since we're getting ready to go to war. i need to say something. mr. lessig is absolutely right. we do not have a representative government. i taught sixth grade history. i keep next to me a sixth grade history book that has within it a copy of the constitution. every time somebody starts talking about the constitution i open a book and see what they're talking about. these people are always talking about the constitution having never read the constitution and never read anything in it. the black lives matter movement, i told you how i grew up. black lives do matter. when my father who was a world war ii veteran came home from world war ii, he was not allowed to take care of -- participate in a g.i. bill to buy the house

he wanted to buy. generations later we still do not have that wealth in that house. now every time i write to my congressman about an issue, what i get back is thanks for that letter. send me money. i never hear anything else from them. i never see any results except send me money. >> brenda, we'll have to leave your comments, stand there, and get a response from lessig. >> the point she's making is absolutely right. something we have to remember as americans is we have failed to achieve the ideal, the very core idea of america, and know part of america h -- no part of america has suffered this more than african-americans. there are 1,000 remedies we have to immediately undertake to

make. the way to get there is to remind america of this core value, this core principle, that we ought to celebrate at the very beginning of our republic the value of equality was the central idea. my colleague at harvard, a woman named danielle allen, an african-american political theorist, wrote a fantastic book called "our declaration." the core value in the declaration of independence is the value of equality. that value ought to be our constant charge. how do we achieve it? because if we achieved it, we would have a government that was representative. if we had a government that was representative, it would not be the insane dysfunctional crippled institution that we see in washington right now. >> bill shirts, texas democrat, you are the last caller. >> caller: yes. i want to ask the guest -- he started out with the congress

campaign six months prior to the electi election. well, i was in army for 22 years. when i signed a blank check for the government to basically take over my life, i was on call 24/7, 365 days a year, for 24 years. so how can these guys just work approximately half of three years, go home and campaign day after day, week after week, get months of not even working in congress, and still say they're working for the people. >> bill, we got the idea. lawrence lessig. >> first of all, bill, thank you for your service. something incredible to keep in focus, the people who dedicated themselves as you did.

i think that's exactly the question. it is astonishing to me that people are not outraged at the idea that they spend as much time as they do raising money to get back to congress. if but we have that system in washington right now. what we've got to do is build awareness of why that is a corrupted system. that begins by politicians having the courage to call it what it is. not the fantasies that we're going to automatically amendment the constitution and somehow that fixes the problem. they have to have the courage to use the words that america needs to hear. change the way campaigns are funded so they are not dependent on this tiny fraction of the 1%,

so they are dependent on all of us the way madison said it would be. >> a multitude of interrelated problems. which one would you have fixed first, money, gerrymandering? >> i would start with money because if you solve the gerrymandering problem without the money problem, you have increased the cost of elections without changing who is paying for elections. solve the money problem. solve the gerrymandering problem. the citizen equality act had three parts. number one, change the way elections are funded. number two, change the way districts are drawn. number three, end the way we suppress votes in america so that everyone has an equal freedom to vote. those three changes in the

citizen equality act would in one fell swoop bring about a representative democracy, no #h 1b #american lives matter. thanks for being on the program. >> thanks for having us. >> on the next washington journal, melissa yeager with the sunlight foundation looks at a recent report detailing the growth of online campaign ads. and why online political spending is hard to track. then charlie savage of the "new york times" discusses president obama's executive action to close guantanamo bay. after that bob weiss of the alliance for excellent education exams a new report showing a degrees in high school dropout rates. plus your phone calls, facebook comments, and tweets. "washington journal" live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. the florida republican party is hosting the sunshine summit, a gathering of presidential

candidates in orlando. on saturday we'll hear from bobby jindal, chris christie, rick santorum, rand paul, john kasich, and carly fiorina live starting at 10:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. also satisfied martin o'malley, hillary clinton, and bernie sanders taking part in a debate from drake university in iowa. live at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span radio. and on sunday we'll show the debate in its entirety at 4:00 p.m. and the debate in its entirety at 4:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. american history tv this weekend. >> setting out boundaries, political boundaries, state boundaries, community boundaries for the future and for this territory going forward. >> lectures in history with iowa state university professor

carlton bass magian. an act and our new series "road to the white house rewind." >> senior citizens against the kids? no, no, no. i missed. let them have it. oh, i see. >> i don't know if you made it special or what. >> you told me to sit facing the coke machine. that's what you said. i just do what i'm told. >> a look back at the 1992 presidential campaign of bill clinton during a visit to franklin high school in new hampshire. on real america, marking the 70th anniversary of the neuremburg trials. >> my captain, who was a new

captain on that job, came and said you stay here. again, it was one of those times when somebody reached out and i was left. and off they went, and it was several days later, it was a week or so later, before i went across and rejoined my outfit. >> a former chief prosecutor for the united states bowho emigrat to america. he was assigned to set up a war crimes branch to investigate nazi atrocities. get our complete schedule at c-span.org. two things are very different. first of all, we have a justice system that does not -- these

trials were not held to according to what we consider to be modern law. no one has a defense -- there were no lawyers, by the way, i should say at the time. the courtroom was an extremely unruly place. that's one piece of it. we don't believe in witchcraft. >> sunday on "q&a," stacy talks about her book on the salem witch trials. >> i mean, the interesting part about the accusations, especially given the way we think of salem, is that wealthy merchants were accused as witches, sea captains were accused as witches, homeless girls were accused to be as witches. this is not an incident where all the victims are female.

we have five male victims. and we didn't burn the witches. we hang them. there was so much encrusted myth and so much misunderstanding here that i felt it was important to dispel. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern. michelle malkin, your new book sold out. what happened at disney? >> disney workers were summoned into this meeting room. a lot of them had just gotten off of a project where they performed with excellent skill, and a lot of them assumed they were going to be rewarded somehow. and it was a horror story that no hollywood writers could conjure up. in this case the reality was so much worse than anything they could have imagined. they were informed that they were going to be laid off, but even worse -- and this is something that has been repeated over and over again in american companies over the

of decades, it's been sort of like the dirty little open secret of the information technology industry, they were told that they were going to be forced to train their cheap foreign replacements from india as a condition of receiving any kind of severance pay. this is not some sort of aberrant outcome of our current immigration and entrance policies. it's actually built into the law that created the h1b specialty worker program, and we blow the lid off, my co-author and i, in our new book, and i think that it is -- we have been told and it's laalready been writ than t timing of the intobook is very fortuitous, in some ways providential at a time when the issues are finally coming to the fore and where there's a growing awareness of this practice and

the devastating impact that these policies ever having on the best and brightest workers in america. >> well, your co-author is john miano with the center for immigration study as well. how does the h-1b guest worker program work? >> the way it works is actually a three-step process. first the employer has to make out a labor condition application in which they certify they're going to be paying the so-called prevailing wage and that they're not going to be adversely -- they're not going to be violating certain rules. unfortunately, this step is just a paper shuffling exercise. once it's submitted the department of labor is required to approve all the labor condition applications as long as the form is filled out correctly. then when that's approved and you can pretty much guess it will be automatically approved, they submit the actual visa petition to uscas and if they approve it, they go to the state department to get the actual

visa. >> and how many workers are coming into the united states and where are they going? >> there are about 120 to 130,000 coming a year. >> i thought this was capped at about 65,000. >> see, that's the little mistake is that they don't count all the visas in that cap. so there's a base cap, a 65,000. there's an additional cap of 20,000 for u.s. graduates, and unlimited for people going to academia and research, and the reason why they do it that way is because you can say, oh, we've been capped for all these years. well, in reality the number of visas has more than doubled since the 1990s. >> in your book, michelle malkin, you write the manufacturing of a crisis, there is no stem short akage. we repeat, there is no s.t.e.m. shortage, science, technology, engineering and math. >> this is one of the keystone

issues of the entire debate over the last 25 years. this month, november, actually marks the 25th anniversary of the creation of the h-1b program, and all along there's been this underlying premise on the part of both big business and big government cheerleaders for the program that we need to bring in these -- we need to have this huge pipeline, and it needs to be increased and in some cases many of these political crap weasels as i call them, that's the subtitle of the book, the bipartisan crap weasels in washington who cut the back room deals to do things like john said, to have the unlimited number of people coming in under the h-1b program who are hired by academic institutions and research institutions, and it all -- it rests on this presumption that there are not enough american

high-skilled workers doing this job, and we trace the history of a lot of the advocacy research. much of it which was born inside the government bowels to bolster this claim that there were not enough native-born and legal permanent residents already here to fill these jobs, and it's not true, and the fact is that outside of sort of the d.c. front group, front groups of lobbyists, this constellation of lobbyists and special interest groups who masquerade by these patriotic names. we basically catalog where these people are coming from, where the money is coming from, and we highlight a lot of the shoddy advocacy research they're doing, but when you look at independent academics, people who don't have a vested interest, people who are nonpartisan, it's clear from

all of the economic evidence, just simply looking at wages in this country in these particular sectors that there is no shortage, and, in fact, we've had a lot of data come in over the last couple of years that indicates that you've got millions, 11 out of some 15 million americans who have these so-called s.t.e.m. diplomas who aren't able to find work because they are undercut and underpriced by the h-1b visa holders. >> the numbers will be up on the screen if you would like to participate in the conversation with michelle and john, co-authors of "sold out." michelle malkin, my guess is that crap weasels was something that you put in the title of this book. what is a crap weasel? >> look, it represents this creature in washington, elected

official who says one thing to get elected and then turns around and not just does another thing but completely betrays the base of voters who sent them there in the first place. well, that pretty much covers 99.99% of washington, doesn't it? >> exposed how beltway crap weasels cooked up the gang of eight's comprehensive immigration reform. everyone in washington pretends to agree america's immigration system is broken and needs to be fixed. john? >> well, it's interesting you mention that because somehow we've been sold that this bill would actually reform the immigration system. in reality is comprehensive reform didn't reform anything, and that's how essentially washington works, they've distracted the public by creating a bill that doesn't reform immigration, calling it immigration reform, so there's absolutely nothing out there to reform immigration. and one of the obvious examples

of that is the bill that created the current immigration system in 1952 was 120 pages long. comprehensive reform in 2013 was 1,198 pages, and that wasn't 1,198 new pages. that was 1,198 pages on top of the 120 pages and on top of everything added over the decades. >> okay. got two articles here that i want to push back just a little and get your view as an immigration lawyer and somebody who is with the center for immigration studies. first of all, here is debunking the myth that immigration harms america. this is put out by several groups, including national association of manufacturers, u.s. chamber of commerce, fwd forward.u.s. sponsored by facebook. cta, use to be cea, the consumer electronic association, et

cetera. myth, lowering the number of immigrants would free up jobs for american workers. and they say fact. immigration helps create jobs for american workers. >> where is the evidence? anyone can just say that. i mean, immigration itself isn't just going create a job. there has to be other factors as well. >> such as? >> you know, what is the type of immigrant? if you import a -- someone who is a panhandler is an immigrant, to go one end, that person is not going to create a job. so there have to be certain -- you have to qualify it more than immigrant creates jobs and that's how they express it. >> and a the other thing, too, that is important in the book, really one of my core missions as a journalist over the last 25 years is to help people since that synthesize information. the synergy we had came from my

journalism bre journalism background and being able to tell stories and john with his analytical skills and the depth of knowledge he has about how all of the immigration so-called reform sausage making has occurred in this town, and part of that entire kabuki theater involves these advocacy groups that pose as neutral number crunchers, and so we have what i think is a very important and enlightening section on one of these very prominent groups. it's the partnership for -- national partnership for a new economy, and in conjunction with not just, you know, from my perspective as a conservative journalist people on the left, but people on the so-called right. big business interests. conservative think tanks, and they come up with -- they just pull these figures out of the

air, and then have them regurgitated by bill gates or mark zuckerberg and they march up onto capitol hill and not only do they claim that there's a tech worker shortage, but they also say that h-1b actually magically creates some random multiplier of jobs, 10, 20, 50 times, and it really takes even just a basic knowledge of things like, yes, regression analysis. i know your eyes are glazing over, but it's important to understand how they cook the books. >> some of these groups' names include compete america, council for global immigration, information technology industry council, and things like that, but then on the leftish side of the spectrum is the american immigration council, and they say before the employer can file a petition with the u.s. citizen and immigration service, the

employer must attest that employment of the h-1b worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of similarly employed u.s. workers. >> actually, they're quoting from a different statute, not one that doesn't apply to h-1b. that's 8 usc a-5a. as i said, wh en they make thos attestations, they are required to approve them as long as the form is filled out correctly. >> it's part of the entire smokescreen that goes on. they assume your average, ordinary american doesn't have time and is not interested in knowing the distinctions between a labor certification application and a labor condition application. and so it is part of the big fat lie, and we bust all of these myths in a chapter on all of the

talking points that you always hear that somehow american workers are protected, not only with regard to so-called nondisplacement clauses but with recruitment conditions as well. and it turns out, of course, that many of these things that they claim protect the entire class of american workers only apply to a tiny, teeny, tiny, tiny amount of businesses in this country, and then for the businesses that they do apply to, of course, they've got the lobbyist in the back room trying to make sure their special preference or special loophole is built into, oh, i don't know, the gang of eight bill and it's 6,000 pages or whatever it is. >> let's take some calls. let's get our callers involved. the book is called "sold out." steve is calling in from phoenix on our democrats line. please go ahead, steve. >> caller: good morning and thank you for c-span. my question is to both guests, not trying to beat up anybody,

but the question is where is the supply? it's all about capitalism, capitalism is about gathering market share. it only seems reasonable to me that in the desire to lower the prices, we're going to get the lowest price labor. it worked so good with the palette maker and forklift driver why not work up the chain. that's my question. it worked down below, why not up above? >> what i'd say is you see it's coming -- that the big businesses coming at the american worker from all sides, that, you know, we've seen it, as you're describing at the low wage, and most of the public debate is on the low wage, low wage immigration. should we have some sort of amnesty for illegal aliens, but the problem of americans in tech industries being fired and replaced by foreign workers really hasn't hit the news until recently. >> and the other thing i would

add, too, is that this comes up a lot because, of course, there are a lot of fissures on the right side of the aisle between libertarians who join with sort of open borders folks on the left and this is all in the headlines of the papers today about where does the gop stand. i think our feeling about the h-1b program and all of these foreign guest worker programs is this is not capitalism. this is cronyism. this is american businesses, the creme de la creme in silicon valley using the power of government to rig the game, and, in fact, in an appendix in the book we reprint the e-mails between google and apple fixing wages. they want to fix wages and they want to fix their pipeline for this, you know, cheap foreign labor supply that's undercutting americans. >> well, in fact, this headline came from this morning's "usa today "more temp workers might come to u.s.

congress is considering legislation to allow u.s. employers to bring in thousands of more unskilled foreign workers for seasonal jobs that last as long as ten months at a time. i know that's not what your book is about, it's about the h-1b program that everybody seems to support. what about the issue of unskilled workers, bringing in more? >> they're facing the same problem as the tech workers are. i mean, the reality is not everybody in the united states really has the skill to become a computer programmer, and so there are going to be people who are going to be in america who are going to be doing labor -- manual labor-type jobs, and i mean, if we're going to do anything about poverty, we have to improve the conditions for them, and in theory the free market should allow that to happen, but congress isn't allowing the free market to work by bringing in more foreign labor. >> we already have 66,000 visas that are issued for nonagricultural season workers

and another 117,000 every year for ag workers. in the same way that these tech companies are always talking about a shortage, you also hear that in the agricultural industry as well and it's just a suspect. >> i saw an article recently in a newspaper where the writer was saying that paying someone $13.59 was an absurdly high wage. i mean, that person could barely make it by on that. and that was for agricultural work. >> carrie is in canton, north carolina, republican line. carrie, where is canton? is that in the raleigh durham area? >> caller: no, no, that's right beside asheville. biltmore house area. up in the mountains. >> okay. >> caller: michelle, my best friend would be so jealous if he could even know i get to talk to you this morning. >> good morning. >> caller: being that said, i

have pros and cons on both sides of this. >> sure. >> caller: i can listen to the democratic party and some of the latino groups and they say, well, we're pretty much trying to blackmail the country into accepting amnesty. on the other hand, i can see a man from san salvador having to walk 2,000 miles across a desert because he knows once he gets to this country he's got a job. when he looks at our inner cities and sees most of the population of our inner cities won't walk across the street to get a job, i can see why he wants to come. i mean, i'm torn both ways. i grew up working tobacco, tomatoes, beans on the farm. that's how i worked my way up to get a skilled trade job. i'm a transmission mechanic. 15 years ago i went to a seminar which they said that the average age of a mechanic today is 46 years old. it just -- i can look at the

universities and see where the government has actually failed, not only us, but our children. >> all right. carrie, we're going to leave it there and get a response from michelle malkin. >> there's a lot there. i think i would approach it in this way, and certainly as a child of legal immigrants to this country, i understand what he's saying about america as a beacon for people who want to come here and work hard, but we already have many processes in place to bring people here who have something to contribute, whatever part of the pay scale we're talking about, and the fact is that the number one problem in terms of immigration enforcement that this federal government faces is that they're completely overwhelmed. we go into great detail, gao reports and inspector general reports and every single agency

of the immigration enforcement bureaucracy. they're creaking. they can't even enforce these basic american worker protections in h-1b and b-1 and the eb5 program which is selling green cards to the highest bidder let alone the problem, the ongoing problem of the illegal immigration situation, and so not only do we have to fight this compulsion that both parties have, and i think that's one thing that's really distinctive about this book is we go after republicans probably even harder than the democrats, and it really does transcend all of these party lines. the inability of the federal government to do its basic duty. every single one of these immigration and entrance programs should put american workers and american citizens first. public safety, national security, and economic security. >> i want to show charts from

bloomberg. here is a cluster of skilled foreigners. it says that in total employment, 22% of the raleigh durh durham, north carolina, area is for skilled workers is held by h-1b visa holders. it says that most of these folks come from india. you can see there that the vast majority of h-1b employees come from india, and then china is next in the line. and then who is employing them? and these are some groups that, you know, at the top that maybe we haven't heard of, and it begins with tata consultancy services limited and cognizant tech solutions u.s., the two biggest employers of these h-1b and i want you to address that. we have i think one more chart? no, that's it? yeah, we have one more chart and

this is the jobs that the h-1b visa holders are holding. systems analyst, program and computer related, university educational, electrical education. but tata consultancy. what is that? >> tata consultancy is a division of tata which is like india's mitsubishi, but they are in the business of moving jobs out of the united states to india, and so what we've seen -- what the h-1b program has done is created the business of importing foreign workers and moving jobs overseas. so what tata will do is bring in a few people into the united states, like five or six, to then send 30 jobs overseas. so you will see five or six people in the united states on an h-1b visa and there will be about 30 americans that lost their job and the rest of the business going to india. >> william is calling from minneapolis. william, you're on the air,

independent line. >> caller: thank you, peter. like you very much but i think you really have to make an effort to get more callers there. >> you know what? you are absolutely correct. >> caller: okay. i like you. michelle, i don't usually agree with you on things but i have to agree with you on this. i like to think i live in the h-1b capital of america which is minneapolis, and we have target corporation and best buy here and all the employees in their engineering is all indian. and they overstay their visas and never go home. it's never even addressed in immigration. all they talk about are the mexicans or hispanics coming across the borders but the true illegal immigrants are people who come over on visas and get these high tech jobs and high jobs in corporations like best buy and target corporation who i don't think you guys are aware of -- >> we're aware of them. oh, yeah. >> oh, yes.

>> caller: and they overstay their visas. >> all right. we got the point, william. thank you. who wants to answer that. >> i think probably a little bit of both of us, but, of course, in minnesota you've got senator amy klobuchar there who is the co-sponsor of legislation on capitol hill that would greatly expand the number of these h-1b visas and he hit on exactly something that is the theme of the introduction of the book. one of the things that we find has been a flaw in much of the reporting and it has improved over the years is that even "the new york times," which is playing catch-up on covering these issues treats it as if this is something new when, as we have emphasized, this idea of bringing these people over here, making american workers train them, and then watching these american workers have to see these replacements go back to their home countries carrying all the knowledge they imparted with them as a condition of

receiving severance has happened at disney, southern california edison, cargill, harley-davidson. it is a massive harbor story and the fact that the caller disagrees with me on most things but that we can come together on this, again, shows you just the very interesting fault lines here, and it's going to make a lot of people vulnerable. hillary clinton, we talked about tata consultancy. as a senator brought tata to buffalo as part of this government deal. they said they were going to create american jobs. it created ten. meanwhile, in the back door tata was petitioning for 1,600 h-1b visas. where is the democratic outrage of that? the party of the people, the party of the workers. >> from "the new york times" large companies game h-1b visa program and jobs leave the u.s. this is julia preston writing. she says that many of the visas are given out through a lottery and a small number of giant global outsourcing companies has

flooded the system with applications significantly increasing their chances of success. john in ka tab what, virginia, democrat. >> caller: thank you for taking my call. i want to say, michelle, i live in virginia and i work -- and i am shocked at how many indians are living in this area that bought houses and stuff like that, and it seems to me that we've seen a lot of young students graduating universities, working at sam's club or costco and they can't get a job and they have $80,000 on their backs. it really bothers me that someone tells me that we don't have enough employees. we can train our young students another direction and we can give that job that would bring in overseas. here is the thing, most of these companies, they care about the money.

instead paying the americans $80,000 or $90,000, they'd rather pay indians for $40,000 so they can save $50,000 for their pockets. and most of all i heard a lot -- i don't know if it's true or not, there is a lot of corruption about these visas. it's not only here. the people that they bringing, they're not qualified. they have to retrain all over again. when these guys get in the system, guess what they're going to say? can i bring my cousin? he's in india. it's amazing to me what's going on. >> john, we got the point. the salary, is he right about the salary differential? >> yes, that's correct. the h-1b program allows the employer to pay a prevailing wage. it's the 17th percentile of u.s. wages, the 50th percentile is the median. what we'd normally call the prevailing wage.

although one thing i would like to say, that he's focused on the indian aspect of this, which certainly is a problem, but the problem with the h-1b program isn't in india. it's right over there on capitol hill with americans who are largely european americans, not indians, and they're the problem, not the indian companies. >> is he right about corruption or is it a gaming of the system? >> well, it's not -- it's not even a gaming of the system. the h-1b program is working exactly as it's designed to do. that's one of my issues. i'm glad to see "the new york times" covering this issue, but i think -- but my biggest objection to "the new york times's" coverage other than it being new to the issue is it's portrayed as exceptional. this is exactly how congress set the system up and how it's working. the only thing that's not working as its designed is that the news media is starting to cover it and they haven't been doing it in the past. >> we are talking about the

co-authors of "sold out" and david is in chicago on our independent line. >> caller: as an american tech worker i want to thank you so much, john and michelle, for writing this book. it's about time the word gets out. i'd like you to discuss how these trade deals have -- inveigled foreign guest workers whether it's the -- the fact we're -- and secondly discuss the three executive actions that the obama administration wants to do in terms of spouses of h-1b work permits, the fast track green cards and the opt, if you could do that and the total number of h-1bs. >> a lot there. a lot of acronyms, david, and we'll get john on it in a second. what type of tech work do you to? >> caller: i do data center network cloud with nascent cyber

security, i'm very skilled, well trained and i'm making wages i was making 20 years because of the wage suppression and wages have been flat for tech workers since 2000. we know there's no shortage. if there was a shortage of s.t.e.m. workers wages would be going up. certainly that's the argument for paying executives high compensation because there's not enough talent. well, if that were the case for tech workers, wages would be going up like they did in the '90s, but, in fact, they're not. >> all right. we got it. john? >> well, i think david is saying h-1b is just the tip of the iceberg. there are other ways foreign labor is coming in in this area of technical workers. one of the issues he raised is trade deals. the inside lobbyists are using trade deals as a means to bring foreign labor in, that the u.s. is locked into giving at least

65,000 h-1b visas every year under a treaty, and now under this new -- the transpacific partnership, they're also trying to slip in more foreign labor. then i'm just going through the list, the other thing we could add is that there's -- the executive actions are going on. obama this year started allowing spouses of h-1b workers to work. industry lobbyists have sought that in the hopes they can eventually turning h-1b in a two-fer where they can get spouse and get the spouse -- both spouses to work on a single visa. another one we have is the -- what's called the optional practical training program which is a student visa. in 2008 microsoft came to the department of homeland security secretary at a dinner party with the idea of using student visas as a means to get around the h-1b quota and dhs worked in

absolute secrecy to produce the regulations and the public didn't even know these were being considered until dhs put them out without notice and comment, and so essentially we had the situation where microsoft was telling dhs to do regulations. they just did it and dropped it in, and i have been involved with that because i had a court case that got those regulations set aside but the obama administration's response to that was, oh, well let's just make the student put out new regulations and let them work longer. i haven't seen hit all the different ways that are being used to admit foreign labor here. >> but they are detailed in "sold out." gene is in dublin, virginia. hi, gene. >> caller: good morning. thanks for c-span. i'd like to relate two things and get a comment. first one is i'm a former -- i'm a refugee from the big blue oval in dearborn and when i was looking for a new engineer for

my group, i went to my hr person and all i got was h-1b visa people. now, i've worked internationally most of my life. if i was still working i would be in brazil this weekend, but they -- i went to -- i'm far from xenophobic. i went to my hr person and said, hey, here in dearborn we are surrounded by universities that are turning out -- making out pretty good engineers. can we find at least one american to which i was told, quote, h-1b visa people work between $9,000 and $14,000 a year cheaper so that's who we hire. the other issue is i now have graduate students who were showing me e-mails from i.t. companies that are literally based within miles of where you guys are sitting, one of them being tyson's corner, and in the e-mail it says, quote, come to work for my i.t. company and i guarantee you will be accepted at one of these two universities

and if you look -- and one of them is based also in tyson's corner. they're unaccredited universities. basically what they're doing is using the student visa system as a scam to get around the immigration workers and get i.t. workers in the company. by the way, this i.t. company -- i did a little research because i do policy work, my undergrad is engineering but i do policy work, and this company has government contracts. >> all right. gene, we got the point. tyson's corner, of course, is here in the washington suburbs, a high-tech area. >> yes. we have an entire chapter in the book on how the f-1 foreign visa student program has been exploited as another one of these alternative channels to bring in all of these cheap foreign students to work, and that's tied to the optional practical training program. and i think it's interesting again to note that these calls are coming from the democratic line and the independent line

and the republican line, and we really think that we've struck a nerve here because if all we do, if all we can serve to do is amplify these voices of america's best and brightest -- this is not news to them, but what this is is really a wake-up call to the beltway, to those crap weasels, i'll say it one more time on c-span, to talk about this collusion, and i think that this is really one of the key, key issues that's a breakout issue for this presidential campaign cycle because it's talking about how the donorist class has bought both parties, and the testimony on the ground from workers like this engineer shows two things. not only are these american workers being devastated, but, of course, all of the h-1b visa holders who are used essentiallies a indentured servants and are being exploited as well needs to be shown, too,

and so we have a whom chapter on that. very perverse practices and they call them names like handcuffing and body shopping and really, of course, sabotaging the original intent of the program in the first place. >> michelle s there any relationship between this book and your earlier book this year which was on innovators and american manufacturers? >> that is a really good question, and the answer is yes. in part, i have been thinking about delving into this issue for a long time because, of course, my first book was in 2002 was "invasion" which was about the illegal immigration aspect and all along i had wanted to get here, and it really was just providential that the two of us were able to get together on this. but when i talked to anthony, the head of mag light flashlight and we talked about this back in may, he was such a fierce proponent of american companies hiring american workers, and this is an immigrant who came here from croatia for the

american dream. he refused to outsource. he knew the best and brightest were right in southern california and really that just spurred me to tell the other side of the story. these two books i think are flip sides of the same coin. >> jenny, springfield, virginia, here in the suburbs, independent line. michelle malkin, john miano co-authors "sold out." >> caller: i'm really glad i have a chance to speak to both of you and the host. please don't cut me off. we just went through an election cycle, and the polling -- the phone calling from the different candidates, and one of the things that was really stressed about how our american students are so under educated and that we really need to compete with india and china and, you know, i'm talking about the democratic party telling me how our students aren't really getting the math education early enough. well, you know, then they go

ahead and say about they can't compete in the work environment because of their lack of education, and i happen to know because i have children who actually are educated as, you know, engineers and really the real world of what they go through, and what i saw was, you know, they're saying that we have to compete, and i'm like what about the kids who are g d graduating from the top universities in the state of virginia. why don't you take your message about how under educated these kids are as they graduate and go on to graduate school in degrees in engineering and degrees in figuresic and they can't get jobs but yet you have people being brought in. >> jenny, we have a lot there on the table. michelle malkin, any response for her? >> that's as trenchant a commentary as i have heard, more

trenchant than anything you will hear from most of these candidates who continue to buy into the myth of the american tech worker shortage and at the same time are doing the bidding of these companies who want to staple green cards to every foreign student visa, and, you know, even among the candidates who are sounding the sanest on this, donald trump, for example, we point out that he's got a terrific immigration reform plan, not only on illegal immigration and the southern border but also with regard to h-1b, the most detailed we have seen, he consulted with someone who we think has his head screwed on straight more than any other on capitol hill, jeff sessions, but even donald trump has sort of paid lip service to this american tech worker shortage and talked about the need to import untold numbers of these foreign students. there's another aspect of the education part of this, too,

that we delve into in the donor chapter because you have bill gates wanting to open up the floodgates to h-1bs, and with another side of his tongue, talking about how we need common core, and common core, of course, supports the myth that there's american tech worker shortage, and in the meantime what is it really doing? a lot of the independent academics who were behind the scenes here in d.c. where all the back room deals were cut on that racket say that all it will do is lower standards, particularly now in math and science, which they're working on. so in essence, he would take this common core scheme, which he's poured hundreds of millions of dollars into and put the american students at the disadvantage that they're not at now. >> from your book, clinton foundation donor and corporate mogul donald trump vaulted to the front of the gop pack and the top of the polls in 2015 by

spotlighting brutal crimes by illegal aliens against americans, but while vowing to build a trump wall on the southern border, the "celebrity apprentice" star espoused a path towards legalization to illegal aliens we deemed outstanding. that sounds a lot like the amnesty path of his rivals. linda is calling in from knoxville, a democrat, hi, linda. >> caller: i'm another liberal democrat who never thought i'd be agreeing with michelle malkin about anything but on this one, we do. >> yes. >> caller: there was an episode of "the west wing" about this in the mid-2000s that dealt with h-1b visas and it fingered congress as the villain. there's so many things here. i'm a high-tech worker. these people who are coming in on the visas are victims, too. you mentioned that a little bit earlier right after i called,

and what they -- these people, what they want more than anything is to stay. they have to be here. so this makes them ripe for all kinds of exploitation. the salaries that they are purported to be getting, they don't get those salaries. half of that is skimmed off by the agencies they have to go to on the way here to get here, and if they make any kind of waves about it, don't pay it, they never get a chance to stay or to come back. >> linda, what kind of work do you do? >> i'm a -- i don't really want to -- >> then you don't have to. don't worry about it. let's get a response about this agency issue from john. >> well, it's said most of these companies are coming through -- most of these aliens are coming through companies that are in the business of importing workers and basically taking a cut off of the top of the salary. that's not the way the system is supposed to work.

but one of the things i'd like to say, we have a liberal democrat here and probably have had conservative republicans speak, this is an issue that essentially everyone in america agrees to except a small elite and yet while liberals, conservatives, moderates all agree that americans should not be replaced by foreign workers, most of the presidential candidates right now support replacing americans with foreign workers. it's shocking. >> actually, of course, this is broken out into the open now and we'd like to think that part of it is sort of the "sold out quctiout" effect of the open warfare you have between cruz and rubio over issues. cruz is attacking marco rubio for all the water he gathered on the gang of eight bill and rubio points out as which did that until recently ted cruz had supported the quintupling of the h-1b visa. our shared attitude is if everybody gets to the right

position, if every one of the gop candidates, well, the democrat candidates, too, that's not going to happen, adopted jeff session's platform on reforming h-1b if we could finally produce some kind of real results, not just fake, phony, called reform over true comprehensive, pro-american immigration enforcement reform, then we'd be pretty happy with that i think. >> jim at fern hollow tweets in, michelle malkin ragging on masty, evil corporations and the left still hates here? gosh. and jody says, michelle malkin, you have finally woken up. there are liberals saying the same thing. union people, you know. susan is also calling from knoxville this morning on our independent line. >> caller: hi. >> hi. >> caller: nice to talk to you. this is a real burning issue and has been for some time among tech people, and quite a few

people in my family are in engineering, physics, so on, so i have known about it, but also this is happening in health care such as physical therapists. physical therapy assistants. there are pockets in knoxville where all the hospitals physical therapists and the aides are all from the philippines. yet, i know two families whose girls have gotten out of physical therapy school, which now takes a master's degree, and can't get a job. this is true in so many industries, and it's so detrimental to the united states. it really needs to be a big issue. >> either of you? >> well, i can say that h-1b is primarily in the -- used in the tech industry, but it is used in all industries as well, and as you say, physical therapists is one, doctors, even accountants. so the damage is very widespread.

>> and teachers, too. we actually have a section in the book that talks about that. and, you know, fun fact about h-1b, you know, it's sold on capitol hill as, you know, for the bright specialty workers who are entrepreneurial who are going to come here and create new businesses. you'll hear this propaganda from h-1b promoters on both sides of the aisle all the time, and yet it covers things like supermodels, and there's an interesting special interest story behind that, too. >> "sold out" is the name of the book and donald is in south bend, indiana, a democrat. >> caller: yeah. i'm sitting here watching this, and i'm just skeptical of miss malkin's -- i don't know. i'm just skeptical. i mean, i have seen you talk a lot of times on fox news, and i

don't know what to make of all this. now, okay, primarily the reason why i called is because, well, what do you expect? i mean, that's capitalism as you and your friends on fox have been trying to tell us in labor, that if a company wants to come in, i mean, if they want to hire somebody at a low cost, i mean, labor is cost. you know, forget about their family and everything, they have families. they don't care. it's about cost. so now that it's happening to people who are working -- and don't get me wrong, we need programmers and, et cetera, people white collar jobs and careers, but now that it's happening to them, well, you know, hey, you know, welcome to my world, you know? >> well, a couple of things.

we challenge the leaders of the h-1b racket and the funders of it and the promoters of it across party lines, and i don't agree with everybody at fox news about everything, and i know that rupert murdoch probably doesn't agree with what i'm saying and yet i have gone on as many venues and we've tried to reach out to as many people as possible. we already addressed the fact that this isn't any kind of capitalism in the form that i ever support, and i have long been an outspoken critic of the kind of crony deals that we see not only with regard to h-1b but whether it's green cronyism, the cronyism that was embedded in the health care bill, and i think that this is where there are shared interests among so many of the callers that we've already heard from. i understand he's skeptical.

he thinks that i have an agenda, but the fact is as a journalist who has been out of the closet as a conservative for 25 years, you can take my biases and judge them against the evidence in the book. just judge the evidence. we cite everything. we urge everybody to do their homework, not just the journalists here in washington who should be covering it better, all of those campaigns out there that are crusading for the american dream and the american worker, but it's important as a functioning of a healthy republic that citizens be informed, and this is our educational and evangelical mission. >> john, this tweet from i love politics, h-1b lies told by ceos to congress. u.s. workers are not available, not able to do the work, unwilling to take the jobs. >> he's basically summed up the nonsense. one of the things that we haven't mentioned is i used to be a computer programmer, so i

saw what these callers and what the tweeters are saying firsthand. right now if you're trying to find a computer programming job, it will be really tough. >> why? >> because they just simply aren't out there and they're not being advertised. every so often i go into dice.com to go look for computer jobs in my area. it's rare you find any. occasionally it's one or two and the only listings are agencies, you know, who submit a resume and maybe we'll submit it to someone else. very few real jobs that i can actually find, so if i were back as a computer programmer, it would be really tough. >> dana, chico, california, republican. hi, dana. >> caller: yes, your guests have done a really good job of explaining the problem, and it's an eye-opening thing for me to know about all this, but my question is what is the

solution? is the solution to force companies to raise wages so that they're forced to pay everybody those high wages? would that cut down or help the problem or is the problem education? what's the problem and what's the solution? >> michelle malkin. >> before you fix a problem, you have to know just how bad it really is, and that was the purpose of the book, to really shake people and wake them up to the depths of the problem, and we have our own comprehensive immigration enforcement reform plan. it's the very, very last section of the book, and it takes a comprehensive look at what needs to be done on many, many levels. and i think the immediate thing that the next president do should put a moratorium on all

of these programs and reassess, you know, how exactly they're working, who is being hurt. of course, it's hard to do anything with regard to the foreign guest worker rackets when you've got upwards of 30 million illegal aliens here, 40% of them who are visa overstayers with the government having no way to track them down and make sure that people who should leave have already left, and then john can address some of the reforms with regard to h-1b but, you know, the problem of duel intent is one of them and making sure that the prevailing wage is actually the prevailing wage. >> caller was asking what he can do. the first thing is to be informed, and one of the things about doing the book is you can explain things that i could not possibly explain on this show. for example, we talk about how regression analysis is used to come up with these bogus statistics about the visas creating a job. that's one or two college

lectures. we could put that in the book and explain how they get these numbers. so you can -- so from the book, this is a shameless plug i guess, but you can get informed about what's happening and understand the whole scope of the problem, and then once you know the problem, vote. you know, find out where your congressman, where your senator stands on these issues, and if you're senator and congressman support replacing americans with foreign workers, vote them out. and call your congressman, write your congressman and senators. let them know you don't support replacing americans with foreign workers. the same thing with the presidential candidates. let rubio and company know, you do not support replacing americans with foreign workers. >> and from "sold out," a quote by representative -- former representative tom davis on big tech's push to eliminate h-1b caps altogether. quote, this is not a popular bill with the public, it's

popular with the ceos. and jim from lodlodi, ohio, on independent line. your the last caller. >> caller: i never realized really how big the problem is but it's very personal to me and i believe that she's right, michelle, that both the immigration laws and these problems that you brought out here are -- you know, they're interrelated, and the reason is my wife is an immigrant. she stood in line and she came from korea. we got married and i had to wait for her for two years to be able to get here, and she finally became a citizen and we had two daughters, and one is now a -- she was a high up graduate at purdue as an engineer. she's 30 years old now and gone back to nursing school because she can't get a job that she had like to have with her degree. m my other daughter is an

international politics and journalism and right now she's working on computers because she can't find what she would like to do, and i knew there was a problem, but i never realized just how bad it is. >> all right, jim. thank you very much for calling. final word from each of you, john? >> well, i'd say this book describes the problem that essentially everyone can agree on, and i hope not just from the intrinsic interest in promoting the book, but this is an issue that's been near and dear to my heart for 20 years, and, you know, this has been a labor of love to get it out to the public so you can see what i have been fighting for for 20 years, and i hope that you will read it and will join the fight with me. >> this seems to me like a kumbaya moment on c-span to have had so many folks call in across

party lines who understand just how daunting this problem is, and i really want to underscore what john said about translating this into votes. i mean, that's where the power is here, and we tell the story of dave bratt here in virginia who was able to topple eric cantor and all of the money, much of it coming from big tech propagandists who wanted h-1b and the gang of eight bill. it's extraordinary. we see that as a sign of hope that it can be done, that the people's voice, the workers' voice can be heard and just address the caller as a last thing, i think it just underscores another thing that's so important particularly to me and that's the idea that we can -- so many of us can unite behind this message that pro-american is not anti-immigrant. >> and finally, this tweet from kq spp thank you so much. you transformed this democrat midsummer about garage invent s

inventors, your earlier book. no #h 1b #american lives matter. thanks for being on the program. >> thanks for having us. >> on the next washington journal, melissa yeager with the sunlight foundation looks at a recent report detailing the growth of online campaign ads. and why online political spending is hard to track. then charlie savage of the "new york times" discusses president obama's executive action to close guantanamo bay. after that bob weiss of the alliance for excellent education exams a new report showing a degrees in high school dropout rates. plus your phone calls, facebook comments, and tweets. "washington journal" live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. the florida republican party is hosting the sunshine summit, a gathering of presidential candidates in orlando. on saturday we'll hear from

bobby jindal, chris christie, rick santorum, rand paul, john kasich, and carly fiorina live starting at 10:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. also satisfied martin o'malley, hillary clinton, and bernie sanders taking part in a debate from drake university in iowa. live at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span radio. and on sunday we'll show the debate in its entirety at 4:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. eastern over on c-span. and baker says to him, well, i want to be a congressman. i think you're just using this as a steppingstone to the senate and george h.w. bush, says, no, no, i'm not using it as a stepping zone to the senate, i want to be president. he had a sense of destiny.

>> saturday night at 10:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2's book tv, the conversation between pulitzer prize winning biographer jon meacham and former president george w. bush about the life of the president's father. also on saturday it's the louisiana book festival including keith we will don medley talks about his life and adam rothman and his book "beyond freedom's reach." and sunday night at 9:00, former congressman patrick kennedy shares his personal journey with mental illness and substance abuse. >> i really was convinced that no one could pick up on the fact that, you know, sweaty palms, i was perspiring, i was, you know, furtive and moving around in an agitated way. i totally thought no one knew.

>> he's interviewed by democratic representative jim mcdermott from washington state. book tv, television for serious readers. so to all of you, thank you for your support and to the kids for just saying no. thank you. my hope is that the women of the future will feel truly free to follow whatever paths their talents and their natures point to. i think they thought that the white house was so glamorous and your role was so -- what you did was so glamorous, your life was so glamorous, and all they saw were the parties and meeting people and, you know, and i have to tell you i never tell you i'

never worked harder in my life. >> nancy reagan served as long-time political partner, ferocious protector and ultimately as caretaker for ronald reagan. she was involved with key staff decisions, policy making and campaigning. she made drug use her initiative with her just say no come campaign. nancy reagan. this sunday night on c-span's original series, first ladies, the private lives of women who filled the position of the first lady. from martha washington to michelle obama. sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span 3. benjamin netanyahu was in washington, d.c., and accepted the 2015 irving kristol award

for work in public policy. this is an hour and fifteen minutes. >> ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats and turn your attention to the screens. >> if you believe subversive truth, that a free society is necessary for human dignity and human potential, if you believe that ideas matter -- >> the american enterprise institute stands at the center of a revolution in ideas of which i, too, have been a part. >> that civil debate and intellectual courage can change the world. if you believe that we should see our fellow citizens not as

liabilities but as sets, that the social safety net is a great accomplishment of our free market system, but that our main goal must be to help the poor lead lives of dignity, self-reliance and independence. if you believe that real social justice should not depend on politics, that we should be fighting to make the starting line more equal. if you believe that american leadership remains the key to a free world and lifting billions out of tyranny and poverty, that american greatness is not just about our past accomplishments but about the high expectation the world still has for the united states, if you believe

that our best days still lie ahead of us, then you are not alone. [ applause ] good evening. i'm arthur brooks, president of the american enterprise institute. i'm so honored to welcome all of you to the aei dinner and kristol award lecture. do you believe that america is a force of good in the world? before you say yes, consider that this is a very serious commitment. it is to say that our ideas of democratic capitalism are good for us and good for others and thus as generous, decent people we're willing to share these

ideas. we do not deny america's errors but still see the motives of our nation as fundamentally just and the net effects of our influence is making the world a better place. i believe these ideas are fair and right because i've seen the evidence all around the world. one week ago, my aei colleagues were in an indian slum in mumbai. that's the area featured in the famous movie slumdog millary. i walked for hours in the narrow alleyways among pottery factories and plastic recycling plants with a 34-year-old man by the name of krishna. he started out with nothing, dirt poor in ways that we cannot imagine. and has pulled himself out of poverty with a small business.

krishna is truly proud of his success and i asked him his secret. his answer, entrepreneurship. . and what does that mean? build something, earn a living, serve others. build, earn, and serve. where do you suppose he got these crazy ideas? he'll tell you himself from america, he's never been here before but he knows this. this is what we stand for. this is our ethos spreading around the world, lifting up people like him in countries like his. krishna is not alone and is not an isolated case. since 1970, two billion people around the world have been lifted out of absolute poverty and billions have seen democracy for the first time.

why? two reasons. first, they saw how we live in the united states. they saw an open society, the rule of law, property rights and the rewards of entrepreneurship and hard work. our freedom, prosperity and by copying these ideas, the inspiration and drive that makes this country so great, they threw off the chains of poverty by the hundreds of millions. second, they saw that america is a servant leader nation. we have a military diplomatic and cultural commitment to sharing values and the system around the world. usually peacefully. but when necessary, with force. but it can only happen in the future if we retain confidence in the greatness of our nation, believe in the goodness of our value, learn from our mistakes and maintain a commitment to serve the rest of the world. and we need one more thing.

we need friends. we cannot honor our commitments to the world by ourselves. we need friends who share our values. we need outposts of democratic capitalism. we need people who believe in equality, freedom and fundamental potential of every single human being. friends are very hard to find in the world today. too many nations are silently glad we lead and find it pretty convenient to free ride on american strength, enjoying the benefits while grousing about the morality of our cause and the principles behind our leadership. for others, american values are a threat to their power which they maintain at the cost of the poor and oppressed, so when we have a true friend, a collaborator nation in the optimistic joyful experiment of building a better world, it's important to celebrate that and that's what we need do tonight.

no nation in the world is a better friend and partner to america and the fight for freedom and democratic capitalism than israel. no nation mirrors our values more faithfully. israel is truly america's sister nation in the fight for a better, more just world because like the united states, israel is a beacon of hope and a model for its neighbors, its region and world. tonight, we will have a conversation about this friendship and its future with israel's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu. he receives the irving kristol award honoring our friend is our commitment to our nation's own values. and that is a can commitment

that i know each one of you probably shares. before i invite prime minister netanyahu to the stage, i want to hand the microphone to bill kristol. following this, he will say a word about the council. ladies and gentlemen, bill kristol. >> thanks, arthur. it's an honor on behalf of the family to join in welcoming all of you to this irving kristol award dinner and a particular honor to welcome the prime minister of israel tonight. my father would have reproved of approved of the choices of the prime minister, of prime minister minister netanyahu. i say this, mr. prime minister,

not on my own authority but on that of my mother. so you can be sure it's tracked. arthur asked me to say a word about my father, since many of you, an increasing number as time marches on, did not know him personally. but let me try to capture him in my own words, but of those of our guests. here's a letter he wrote to my mother little over six years ago. dear b., i was saddened to hear of irving's passing. he was a man of talent and exceptional humility. his intellectual contributions will be felt for many decades to come. his principles made him a mentor to three generations of thinkers and influenced presidents and prime ministers alike. no less important as he made his way in the prestigious circles, he remained the proudest of jews

setting a powerful example. i will always treasure my conversations with him throughout the years in which his eyes twinkled and wisdom shone. deep respect, benjamin netanyahu. thank you, mr. prime minister, for that wonderful condolence letter which meant so much to us and also i think was an accurate portrayal of my father. for those interested, let me refer you to a website. irvingkristol.org. this guide to my father's work is the work of the foundational government which is put together curated websites to voters with c contemporary thinkers more easily accessible to all of us, but especially to students and future general races. this project isn't directly

involved with or connected to aei. not affiliated, but it turns out to be in a way an unintentional tribute to aei. it's amazing how many of these thinkers, these important and influential thinkers have been affiliated in one way or another with aei. i'll mention only james wilson, walt t walter burns, leon diamond and many more who you could find at contemporarythinkers.org. i think one of the other websites that's going up is devoted to the work of charles murray. it's reminds me of how central aei remains to american public life over the past several decades. but you're not here to hear from me. difficult as that is for me to believe. and you're not even here to hear about aei, as difficult as that is for arthur to believe. you're here to hear from mr. benjamin netanyahu, the prime minister of israel and perhaps the pre-eminent leader in the

free world today if we're still allowed to use that term, free world. i'm happy to use it here and when i see prime minister netanyahu, i think of the free world. so i say thank you for honoring us by your presence and i'm pleased to turn this over to the chairman of aei's chairman of council, george priest. [ applause ] >> thank you very much, bill. as bill mentioned, i'm the chair of aei's council of academic advisers. i'm the official host of this event, believe it or not, and i've done absolutely nothing to prepare for it. the principle purpose of the event is to bestow the irving kristol award. we've seen bill, his son, and the wonderful tribute to irving,

but there are also other members of the kristol family here tonight that i would like us all to recognize. bee kristol, irving's widow, with whom i served for 18 years on the council. she was a member longer than that, but we're very happy to have her here tonight. [ applause ] we also have with us lelizabeth nelson, bill's sister and susan, bill's wife. we're very happy to have them, too. now, many of you might think that tonight's event is just a big d.c. party with a prominent speaker followed by dancing. that's wrong. now, it is that but it's also an

academic event. the council of academic advisers of aei comprises a set of academics from leading universities around the country. assembled by aei to serve two duties. first, to review the work produced by scholars, to make certain that work meeting academic standards. these are not the standards of dissertations. but the job of the council is to make certain that the work of aei scholars is solid. that's it's defensible and persuasive. aei scholars know this standard and more than meet it. the second job of the council is to select each year, the person most deserving of the irving kristol award, which as arthur mentioned, the highest honor bestowed by aei. aei has delegated this task to an academic council so this

group of academics can select that person quote, who has made extraordinary, intellectual contributions, social welfare of political understanding, as did irving kristol in a number of ways. the council of academic advisers this year has chosen to bestow this award to benjamin netanyahu, prime minister of israel, and mr. prime minister, we're very honored to have you here to receive this award. as arthur mentioned, tonight's program will consist of a discussion between prime minister netanyahu and danielle plutka, ai's director of defense and foreign policy studies and considerable intellect. danny, i am certain, will raise many important issues with the prime minister. but i would like to address to prime minister netanyahu with

all humility, in order to set the stage, a question that i think was raised and discussed by members of the council and is, of course, a broader concern to all of us, including to all citizens around the world. how is it possible to achieve peace in the middle east? 20 years ago, at around the time of the first -- i asked this question to an israeli friend of mine who often teaches at yale and who was later the chief justice of the israeli supreme court. it's common maybe just for americans to believe that wars have a beginning and an end. although, of course, the recent american experience in afghanistan and iraq may be changing that view. but i asked my israeli friend, when will there be peace between palestine and israel? and my friend answered, we've been fighting for 2,000 years,

why should it end now? there was probably a deep truth to that point, though it is not an assuring answer to all of us today. but i would like to put that as well, with all respect, to prime minister netanyahu. and danny i'm sure will have other questions as well. this institute, the american enterprise institute, is committed to promoting through its studies the benefits of free markets, free trade, open interactions among citizens as to how best to improve their lives. there is an old saw in the political science literature that provides that democracies do not go to war against each other. there's no strong theoretical support for the proposition beyond the idea that citizens voting democratically would not support destructive wars. now, of course, the proposition

has been belied imperically. hitler was elected democratically and particular by the palestine israel dispute today. one can view a citizen that elected hamas as a functioning democracy. the more important generalization might be that wars do not occur and have no reason to occur among countries that embrace the market order. in the context of market economies through destructive war and combat that cannot be achieved more sustainably through mutually beneficial transactions in the market. and so again, with all respect, i would put this question to prime minister netanyahu. why shouldn't israel promote a lively economy for gaza and the west bank? put them on their feet in economic terms. i believe that a vibrant palestinian economy would change the relationship between israel and palestine.

i very conscious of the security concerns that remain. which are not at all trivial. but i believe that they will deminnish every time as a gaza and west bank economy develops. as an example, the settlements become not a colonialist intervention, but money to buy palestinian services, just as a small town in america welcomes the arrival of new neighbors. i'm sure that danny and many others in our discussion tonight, we are all looking forward to the remarks of prime minister netanyahu. thank you. [ applause ] >> and now, ladies and gentlemen, the main event. this is the largest in aei history. why is that? perhaps you think it's the food or the band. you'd be wrong. our amazing team has assured us it's very good because of our

honored guest. few leaders are important as benjamin netanyahu. we are fond in america of favorability ratings and polls. so it's noticeable that he is currently polling better in america than our own leaders of either party. [ applause ] this, i suspect, presents an interesting opportunity for the prime minister given that we have an election coming up in this country. prime minister netanyahu has been an unflinching supporter of the democratic capitalist values that we share at aei and in this room. he has not had simply a political, but also a great economic career. he was the finance minister of israel that helped manage israel's transition from a good and successful country to a wildly successful start-up nation and all along the way, he's maintained toughness for his country and our shared cause in a part of the world that is

frequently pretty hostile to both. benjamin netanyahu is an unapologetic friend to america. not democrat america or republican america or jewish america, but to every single one of us. his accomplishment in politics and world fairs, his accomplishments are well known and too numerous for me to list. it is our honor to have him as the awardee of the irving kristol and ward and hear his thoughts in an interview. ladies and gentlemen, please welcome with me prime minister minister benjamin netanyahu. [ applause ]

>> yes. >> can everybody else hear me? i know you're here for me. here we go. it's my opportunity to sing. we apologize for that momentary

disturbance. mr. prime minister, you've been welcomed only three or four times already. let me welcome you again. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> i have to say, i'm not used to receiving awards in israel. especially not from the media. i do get them from the public on election day. but it's very moving for me to be here. i do remember irving kristol as a great intellect. as a fearless intellect. political correctness was thrown out of the window. he called it like he saw it. and he had a profound influence on many. had a profound influence on me and i consider myself honored and privileged to have spent many hours with him. i think he's left a great legacy and he's left a great family. and i want to especially welcome

his wife, bee, i've read her books recently, a book, believe it or not, on semitism in britain, can you imagine? a tremendous book. this is a tremendous family. it goes on in the next generations. i am deeply honored to have received this award from you. thank you. [ applause ] >> i don't think anybody sitting here in this room would underestimate the affection and respect that the american enterprise institute, our entire family and community has for the irving's legacy, so, thank you so much for saying that. now let me pick up on our remarks. just a quick, brief word. for those of you who have been with us for many years, in years

past, we have had our honorees give a speech from the podium and this year, we asked you to have a conservation and thank you for doing that. we thought it would be more interesting, more enlightening perhaps for some of us and in addition, it would provide an opportunity to hear about a range of issues that would be of importance to everybody. but perhaps, more importantly, i think there are some who may with a little disappointed that i'm not going to interrogate you in washington style about a variety of issues. i'd like to remind our guests, aei is not a news organization. i may disappoint you. i am very sorry. but we're a think tank and we're interested in the big questions. and i hope that if we can take something away, it will be some big answers. >> well, i hope this catches on. it's wonderful. >> we're all about leadership. mr. prime minister, you've said israel has always been pro american.

israel will always be pro american. you yourself spent many years in the united states as did your father. tell us a little bit about what is at the heart of israel's and your affection for the united states. >> common values, first. i think the values of freedom. free societies. the idea of individual choice. that is enveloped the collective purpose. i think that defines israel defines america. these are two societies built on a purpose. on the idea of freedom. as spoken in the congress a number of times, and each time, i look and i see the emblem of moses in the american congress. and it says a lot. it's the, the idea of the promised land, a land of freedom.

freedom of bondage. freedom to pursue your future. so, i think this is the, the identity of conviction. but there is something else that i think has to be seen in an historic context. we were a people scattered among the nations. we had no capacity to defend ourselves and by accident of historical regularity, we should have disappeared. most nations that existed in the past do not exist today. and certainly a nation scattered from its land and becoming utterly defenseless, subject to the whims, worst whims of humanity should have disappeared. we gathered our resolve, came back to the land of israel, the promised land. rebuilt our country when we repossessed the power to defend

ourselves, but it was said here before, all power, all countries, all power even great powers need alliances. we need an alliance, too. we did not have that alliance in the first half of the 20th century when the founding fathers of zionism identified the threat of anti-semitism in europe, we had no capacity yet to build our nation, we built it having lost 6 million of our brethren and i believe that in the united states had been the pre-eminent world power in the first half of the 20th century, things might have turned out differently. and yet, israel was born in mid century. the united states became the global power at that point.

and what a difference it made. it made a difference for the entire world by guaranteeing liberty, by facing down soviet totalitarianism. it made a difference for us in that we had a partner. and i think that not only the common ideals of israel and the united states, there were mentioned here, but i think it's also the role, the active role of the united states in defending liberty around the world and standing by its allies. in this case, the best possible alley, the united states and israel. i think it's made a world of difference and i met on this alliance. i wouldn't sell the united states short. i wouldn't sell israel short. and i would not at all diminish the purpose of this alliance.

i think it's pivotal for the future of our world and if you ask me about it, i'll tell you more. this is what i believe. [ applause ] with a sore throat. >> i've got tissues right here, too. >> that's all right. >> like the united states and -- >> okay, sure. >> like the united states, which was founded on a big idea and on a by a group of people seeking freedom, israel, took into consideration was founded on a big idea, but the country's come a lopg way since 1896 when huds el word the jewish state. is zionism still is animating idea of the state of israel? is there another direction that israel goes in? where does israel go in the 21st century?

>> having not had a state for 2,000 years, we have secured it again, but we have to assure the jewish future. that's what zionism is about. giving the jewish people the ability to have their own independent state, but you know, this is an ongoing effort. the challenges keep changing. what you want to make sure is that you have the inner strength to confront these challenges and also, to make these alliances that i talked about. nobody makes alliances with the weak. and nobody makes peace with the weak. so, the first obligation we have to further the future of israel is to make sure the country is strong. strong militarily. but that's expensive. i hope you know that. it's very expensive. so, the only way you can

actually fund israel's defenses to safeguard the jewish future is to have a very vibrant economy. the only way you're going to have a very vibrant economy is to make sure it's a free market economy. that is something that i've devoted a good part of my life to do and i think that we're successful in doing that because in israel, what is happening now is that we are harnessing is power of innovation to free markets. if you have technological brilliance, but no free markets, it's not going to go anywhere. the former soviet union had incredible physicists and mathematicians but they were

utterly useless. if you put them on a plane and took them to palo alto, they were producing value in three weeks. israel had incredible technologists, incredible scientists. incredible. but we had to liberate our markets, which is a process i had something to do and as a result, israel is becoming i would say the pre-eminent or one of the two great centers of innovation in the world. and as a result, the our ability to make alliances is shifting. we are now in a extraordinary relationship with two small countries in asia. india and china. and japan. together, we account for roughly 2.5 billion people in the world. now, they're all coming to this new israel, you ask where is israel going. in the century of conceptual

products and knowledge, the ones who will prosper are those who can innovate faster. israel is a speech innovator. we don't have that large a number of innovators, but we have a very, very large number of very fast innovators and our culture promotes that. so, i think israel is moving into a leadership position. i'll give you a number to illustrate this because i think it's important i take this away from general concepts and make it concrete. in 2014, as a result of a deliberate policy that my government is leading, israel had 10% of the global investments in cybersecurity. that's 100 times our size.

in 2015, we tracked that number. we received double that amount. we received 20%. of the global investment in cybersecurity. in cyber, we're punching 200 times above our weight. this is an indication of how you can increase your capacities and how you can harness your innate ingenuity, both for national power and international connections. i read a book by a wonderful writer named will durante. well, he wrote some 12 volumes on history. and towards the end of his life, i think in the late '60s, he wrote a small book. it's 100 pages long. and it's called, "the lessons of

history." well worth reading. i suggest aei reprint it. it's tremendous. every sentence is potent and pregnant with meaning and insight. i want to give you the good news and bad news. the bad news, if i have to, if i can use the word crystallize, what durante is saying, he says that in history, numbers count. that is, big nations overcome smaller nations because you know, they have bigger gdp, so they can have a bigger military and so on and so on. and then i think on page 19 or so, he says, there are exceptions sometimes, where nations can harnness the cultural force.

and he says the young state of israel may be an example of such an exception. well, half a century later, i think we proved the point. so where do we go? we maintain the defenses of the jewish state. we develop its economy. we allow our ingenuity to flourish. we become a technological powerhouse and we hope na that the great battle between modernity and evilism, that if that's the case, we all win. [ applause ] >> there is a battle, though, going on in your part of the world. and if you talk about democracy being the idea that made israel strong and the markets and capitalism being the idea that will propel israel into the 21st century and beyond, there are other ideas at play and a lot of people who suggest that --

throughout the region and are tyrranizing many of the people in the middle east, that are founded on an idea and that as many drone strikes or air strikes or even ground wars that happen, without having an idea to substitute their, you cannot win. as the leader of the only truly democratic market economy in the middle east, what is the idea that is going to beets this? is it democracy? >> it certainly created freedom. i think there's a process in which the arab world and parts of the islamic world move towards the idea of greater freedom.

it's not automatic. but it's certainly a good contrast to the kind of tyranny they're experiencing now. and the brunt of the savagery is inflicted on muslims right now. millions have been displaced and hundreds of thousands butchered, so they have a good idea of what they don't want. i actually think that sometimes, in these kinds of battles, it's first of all important to win physically. win. fight. i mean, combatting -- you had denounceification after you won. you have to win. it's very important not to allow these beasts the freedom to prowl. because what they're doing is they're emptying parts of the middle east you have these two human streams fleeing the ministry.

i spoke to david cameron, prime minister of britain and to angela merkel in the last few weeks and i said, i don't want to talk about isis. that's politically loaded. you can ask me privately later. but i wanted to speak about boko haram. i wanted to speak about al shabab. you know, there must be at least 12, probably closer to 20 leaders of african nations who came to israel just as asia is coming to israel. and they only want three things from us. israeli technology. izzy israeli technology and israeli technology. the african states come and say we want israel the technology and agriculture and health care

and irrigation, whatever. and they all come down to one word. so, i suggested to some of the european countries, a simple partnership. consortiums to deal with individual countries, help them with their security. the islamist movements in africa. they could be defeated today, they can be defeated. be a lot harder tomorrow and my point is, in addition to the battle of ideas, there's the battle. you have to win the battle. and the earlier you win it, the cheaper it will be. the longer you wait, these forces will dissipate because there is no hope, there is no

future for a world of darkness. it may take decades. it may take half a century. naziism was defeated but it claimed the lives of tens and millions of people and a third of my people. i think defeating them early is important. we'll defeat them in the battle of ideas but let's defeat them on the ground as well. [ applause ] >> i hope you won't mind if i press you on this question because there are plenty of voices, i would say growing in volume, both in the united states and i think even in israel who suggest that we are better off with the saddams and the assads in place to tamp down on the islamists who rise up and that secular dictatorship is really the solution we should look for for the rest of the middle east.

others say that democracy is only fertile ground for islamists to rise up. where do you come down on that? >> well, i went to serve in the united nations 100 years ago as israel's ambassador and there was a woman there. her name was jean kirkpatrick. [ applause ] and i had read an article that she had written called "dick tart for ships dictatorships and double standards." she said we are committed to the larger battle of soviet total tearism and for the larger goal to make arrangements with secular dictatorships.

that's basically what she said. now, mind you, saddam was horrible. horrible. brutal killer. so was gadhafi. there's no question about that. i had my own dealings with each of them. but i do want to say that they were, in many ways, neighborhood bullies. that is, they tormented their immediate environment but they were not wedded to a larger goal. the militant islamists are iran leading the militant shiites, hezbollah and islamic jihad or hamas and even though hamas is a sunni. or the militant sunnis led by daesh. they have a larger goal in mind. there goal is not to merely conquer the middle east. it's the conquest of the world.

it's unbelievable. people don't believe that. they don't believe it's possible to have this quest for a caliphate in the 21st century but that is exactly what is guiding them and against this larger threat that would present two islamic states, each one of them seeking to arm themselves with weapons of mass death, chemical weapons in the case of isis, nuclear weapons in the case of iran. that pose as formidable threat to our world. therefore, if i have to categorize those threats, i would say that these are the larger threats and it doesn't mean that you have to form alliances with secular

dictatorships, it means you have to categorize what is the larger threat and that is something that i think is required from all of us. political leaderships involves choosing between bad and worse. i seldom have had a choice between bad and good. i welcome it when it happens but these are by far the easiest choices it's choosing between bad and worse that define as good part of leadership. and i think i know how to choose that. [ applause ] >> let's talk about syria for a moment and then i want to talk about iran. syria is spiralling out of control. the situation seems to be going from bad to worse. when you think about this, how do you see the implications for israel? how do you see this affecting

israel? how do you see solutions that israel can effect? >> i have this weakness. i've done a lot of economic reforms in israel. i think about 50. a lot. you can ask me later about them. >> i'm not taking this hint enough. >> well, they want to have dinner. but i want to tell you about that. so these economic reforms, the most difficult problem, contrary to what people think, is actual conceptual. it's getting the concept right, getting the idea right, especially if you can borrow it from others and see where it worked. and then you just have to fit it to your own country. and then you have the battle with all of the vested interests and so on but i find that particularly boring. it's the first part, deciding

what is the right thing to do that always takes the largest effort and also the greatest intellectual investment. and it's pretty easy to do in economics. it's pretty easy to do in education. it's pretty easy to do in other things. if i see a situation where i don't have a clear concept, i don't charge it. in syria, i do not see a simple concept because you choose between a horrible secular dictatorship or two other prospects or that would be by iran and you'd have iran run syria, a horrible prospect for us, or daesh, which is also touching our borders. when two of your enemies are fighting each other, i don't see strength in one or the other.

i say weaken both or at least don't intervene, which is what i have done, not intervened. i have acted several years ago -- and i think i was the first count to do that, to put a military hospital ten yards away from the border with syria and we've taken in thousands of syrians, children, women, men, amputated, horrible conditions, given them treatment in israeli hospitals. we never showed their picture because if their photograph was seen and they were then rehabilitated and they go back to their villages or towns, they would be executed on the spot. but other than that, i have left the internal badland in syria untouched because i'm not sure what to choose and you have to openly admit it.

but here's what i do define in syria. i don't want syria to be used as a launching ground for attacks against us. and i have said this to vladimir putin when i flew to moscow to see him. i told him, here's what we do in syria. we will not allow iran to set up a second front in the golan and we will act forcefully and have acted forcefully to prevent that. we will not allow the use of syrian territory from which we'd be attacked by the syrian army or anyone else and we have acted forcefully against that. and third, we will not allow the use of syrian territory for the

transfer of game-changing weapons in to lebanon, into hezbollah's hands. and we have acted forcefully on that. i made it clear that we will continue to act that way. i explained that to putin. i said, whatever your goals are in syria, these are our goals and we'll continue to act that way. and i think that message was received. now, there is talk now of an arrangement in syria. and i spoke about it today in a very good conversation i had with president obama. and i said that any arrangement that is struck in syria, if one is achievable -- i'm not sure. i'm not sure humpty dumpty can be put together again. i'm not sure syria as a state can be reconstituted but

whatever arrangements are made in syria, that do not iran's aggression to us directly, that doesn't oblige us. we have very clear policy demands in syria. we keep them and we'll continue to keep them. firgs and foremost and on that we'll continue to act forcefully. [ applause ] >> i know you want to talk about the economy but let me ask you quickly about iran. otherwise, the audience won't forgive me. the iranians are certainly embroiled in syria but these have been pretty good times for them, actually. we see them interfering in yemen without too much push back in

bahrain. in lebanon, of course, they are still active in the west bank and gaza. they are everywhere without very substantial push back. do you see iran as being constrained or in some way moderating its actions because of the joint comprehensive plan of action, better known as the iran deal? how do you see iran's ambitions playing out? >> it's no secret we had a disagreement, president obama and myself on the nuclear issue. that deal was signed. i think right now we have to concentrate on three things. the first is to prevent iran from violating the deal. i was concerned with two things about the deal. one, that iran violates the deal. the other that iran keeps the deal and within 15 years they have a clear path to producing the enriched uranium for a

massive nuclear arsenal. i thought and i'm still concerned with that aspect of it but right now we are in agreement that we want to keep iran's feet to the fire. we want to make sure they don't violate the deal. and the president and i spoke about that today at some length. so we'll cooperate, first of all, to make sure that iran doesn't cheat and, believe me, he has a proclivity for cheating. that's the first thing. the second thing is, we have a vested interest and by "we" i mean the united states and israel, not only israel, to prevent iran's conventional aggression. remember, iran is not only arming hezbollah, as i've described, trying to build a second front in the golan. supplying hamas and gaza and islamic jihad with the technology of attack drones,

acting in yemen, trying to undermine jordan. you name it. also building an arms industry 50,000 man strong that produces submarines, satellites, precision rocketry and many and iran could pursue this aggression if it's not met with force. so i think the second thing, other than keeping their feet to the fire, is supporting your allies and the most important ally and the most important countervailing force is the state of israel. support israel. if i can be subtle enough. and the president and i have discussed today a memorandum of understanding for american military support for israel for the next ten years.

imagine the middle east without israel. i have to be diplomatic. now imagine a middle east with three israels. one in afghanistan, one in libya, one near yemen. it's a far different situation. the support for israel that i'm talking about is the united states supports israel to the tune of $3 billion. okay? you spent on the wars in afghanistan and iraq a trillion and a half. so that's 5 centuries worth of support for israel. i think secretary carter said it's something that we deeply

appreciate but it's also a very solid investment in american security as well. we're an ally that doesn't ask for any american troops. we never have and we don't intend to. we can defend ourselves. we just want to have the tools. so i think the second thing in finding iran is giving israel the tools to defend itself and deter iran. there's a third item that i think is essential. iran is not merely practicing aggression in the middle east. iran is building a terror network in both hemispheres, adding the new terror cell roughly every four weeks. when i say both hemispheres, that obviously includes the west hemisphere, this hemisphere. i think the terror network that is growing rapidly should be torn apart. so three things. keep their feet to the fire,

support your allies, this ally first. and third, bring down that terror network. i think that's what i can say about iran. it will be left to history to see if iran will modernize and reform under this click. i have my doubts. i hope i'm wrong. i suspect i'll be proved right. but i'll be delighted if the google hits take over iran. that has not yet happened. >> i think we'll all be delighted. normally i would cut things off because we're about to run out of time but i want to press you on an issue that i know you're very reluctant to talk about and that is israel's economy. >> i love that one. >> you said ask me about israel's economy. you tell us. what do you want people to know? what do you want people to take

away? >> i think the supremesy of free markets is not self-evident. i think it has to be explained. i think the task of leaders is to get things conceptually right. but the second is to communicate it effectively. when i became finance minister in the midst of a crisis in 2003, we were in a horrible crisis. our economy was shinking, gdp was shrinking, terrible unemployment. most people thought it was because of the -- or the collapse, the nasdaq bubble bursting and so on. that had an effect on us. i thought that certainly contributed to it, but i didn't think that was the major problem

and so, i had about three weeks to come wup an economic plan. that ultimately made many, many changes in israel. but i thought no less intensely about how do i communicate this to a country that doesn't have lemonade stands when you're a kid? you have little cards. that when i was a child and you could see this was a nick fighter and a mistier area fighter. that's what we traded as cards. didn't have lemonade stands. we had a fairly semisocialist economy, so, how do i explain the idea of free markets in their centrality in today's world? and so, three weeks later, i'm at a press conference and i said i want to fall back on my first day in basic training in the israeli parra troops. the commander put us in a straight line and he said you're

not going to take, you're not going take a race. but it's a special kind of race. each man look to his right. you are the first man he pointed to me, put the guy to your right on your shoulders. and the next guy did that. and the guy after him did that. and i got pretty big guy. was heavy. the next guy, was the smallest guy in the platoon and he got the biggest guy on his shoulders. and the third guy was a big guy and he got a small guy and so on. and then commander blew the whistle. i barely managed to move forward. the next guy, the guy next to me, the small guy with a big guy on his shoulders collapsed. and the third guy took off like a rocket, you know, and won the race. i said in the modern economies, all national economies are pairs of a public sector, sitting on

the shoulders of a private sector. in our case, the public sector became too big, too fat and we're about to collapse. so, we have to put the fat man on a diet. and we have to strengthen the guy at the bottom. give him a lot of only in his longs, lowering tax rates, and third, we have to remove the obstacles, the barriers to the race. barriers to competition. by the way, this became known as the fat man thin man. thing and taxi drivers could repeat it. but effectively, we ended up doing that. we constrained the growth of public spending, lowered tax rates. i had a big argument about that. they said who's this guy loafer, i said, no, his name is laugher. laugher.

we actually tried it and it works. worked for us. big time. and we instituted a lot of reforms. i mean, even earlier as prime minister in my first term, i removed you know, all constraints on foreign currency exchange and that was supposed to collapse our economy. of course, everybody was warning me that a mountain of mown would move into the country. you know, and so, we did all these reforms. and the consequence of that was that we grew at 5% a year for a decade. exception of 2008. we still grew. but we grew at 5 a%. per decade. and we have now overcome past many leading economies in the world.

and if we continue to adhere to free market principles, and encourage innovation and open new markets with ease, new product, new markets, deregulation. and infrastructure. which we're investing in mightily. then i think israel has a brilliant economic future. the thing that i have to tell you that is that although our gdp per capita is rising rapidly, we have a small gdp. we have 8 million people. we can be number one in cyber. we are. we can be number one in many other things. but we're small. and therefore, we have to compensate with other means. among others, the american

military assistance, which is invaluable. but i think, but i think that the race that i described, the thin man fat man race is is ongoing. you always have to improve the performance of your economy. you have to make sure the government does not interfere with ingenuity, but actually promotes it. the thing that i have to tell

you, though, is that although our gdp per capita is rising rapidly, we have a small gdp. we have 8 million people. we can be number one in cyber. we are. we can be number one in many other things, but we're small and therefore we have to compensate that with other means. among others the american military assistance, which is invaluable, but i think that the race that i described, the thin man/fat man race, is always ongoing. you always have to improve the performance of your economy. you have to make sure that government does not interfere with ingenuity, but promotes it and you can never rest on your laurels. you should always hone your

competitive edge. this is not something that consultants tell you. it's some things that leaders israeli/palestinian conflict. the core of the conflicts in the middle east is the battle between modernity and early primitive medievalism. that's the core of the conflicts. the core -- [ applause ] -- of the specific conflict between israel and the palestinians is the persistent palestinian refusal to recognize a jewish state in any boundary. this is why this conflict persisted for 50 years before there was a state, before there were territories, before there were settlements. if that were the core of the conflict, the settlements, why

did it take place in 1920? jews were murdered for what. that continued 1921, 1929, 1936, 1939, 1948. what was that all about? 1969 -- 1967. for nearly half a century we were being attacked because there was a persistent refusal to accept us in any boundary. well, we got into these territories as a result of the conflict, and what our propganda has done -- because we left gaza completely, every last centimeter, and they're still firing rockets at us from gaza. when you ask them why are you doing this, is to it liberate the west bank, and they say,

yeah, sure, that too, but no it is too liberate palestine. so now i turn to the other guys to the palestinian authority, not to hamas. at least they don't practice violence, which is important. and i say, well, what about you? are you willing to recognize the jewish state? are you willing to recognize the fact you'll have a nation state for the palestinian people? how about a nation state for the jewish people? after all, we've been there for almost 4,000 years and we recognize there are two peoples there. we're willing to make the deal.

are you willing to make the deal? are you willing to recognize the jewish state? because there's no point in making another palestinian state, another arab state, that will continue the battle from improved lines against the jewish state. are you willing to end the conflict? give up the claim of the so-called right of return. make peace. you know what happens when you ask them that? they move. they say, oh, we're willing to recognize israel. i didn't ask israel. i said are you willing to terminate all claims to the jewish state. you won't flood us with refugees. are you willing to do that? and the answer is they're not. we will have peace when the palestinians will accord us what they ask us to accord them. we're willing let them have a state of their own. they have to reconcile themselves to the fact that we have a state of our own and it's here to stay. that is the core of the problem. in the middle east, modernity against medieval, israel against

the palestinians, the persistent refusal to recognize the jewish state in any boundary. i hope that changes, but i have my mind on making sure that until it changes that, yes, we work out the economies to great at least an economic vested hope in the future. if the palestinians follow the prescriptions i've given here for market development, they'll be better off economically and we'll move two steps closer to peace too. thank you very much. thank you. [ applause ]

[ applause ] >> ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the formal part of our program, and we move on now to a delicious dinner and dancing and a safe drive home. god bless america. god bless israel. and god bless all of you. [ applause ] on the next washington journal, melissa yag wert sunlight foundation looks at a recent report detailing the growth of online campaign ads, online political spending is hard to track. then charlie savage discusses president obama's executive action to close good juan tan moan bay. after that, bob wise of the alliance for excellent education, examines a new report

showing a decrease in high school dropout rates. plus, your phone calls, facebook comments and tweets. washington journal live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. the florida republican party is hosting the sunshine summit, a gathering of presidential candidates in orlando. on saturday, we'll hear from bobby jindal, chris christie, rick santorum, rand paul, rick kasich and carly fiorina live at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. saturday, democratic presidential candidates martin o'malley, hillary clinton and bernie sanders taking part in a debate from drake university in iowa live at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span radio. and on sunday, we'll show the debate in its entirety at 4:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. eastern over on c-span.

>> having business before the honorable supreme court of the united states thooz give their attention. >> americans, tonight our country faces a grave danger. we are faced by the possibility that at midnight tonight the steel industry will be shut down. therefore, i'm taking two actions tonight. first, i'm directing the secretary of commerce to take possession of the steel mills and to keep them operating. >> in 1952, the united states was involved in a military conflict with north korea and at home a dispute between the steel industry and the union had come to a head. >> the korean war was a hot war. and they needed steel for munitions, tanks, for jeeps, for all of those things that you needed in the second world war as well.

so if the steel industry went on an industry wide strike that, was going to be a real problem. it's basic to the things that an army and navy need and air force needs to fight a war. >> to avoid interruption of steel production crucial to the military, harry truman seized control of the mills. and as a result, a pending strike was called off and steel production continued. however, the steel companies led by the youngstown sheet and tube company in ohio disagreed with the action and took the lawsuit all the way to the supreme court. we'll examine how the court ruled in the case of yungz youngstown sheet and tube company versus sawyer, the impact on the steel industry and the person from the north carolina law school and william howl, political science professor at the university of chicago and author of "the wartime president." power without persuasion and

co-author of "while dangers gather." congressional checks on presidential war powers. that's coming up on the next landmark cases. live monday at 9:00 pm eastern on c-span. c-span3 and c-span radio. for background on each case while you watch, order your copy of the landmark cases companion book. it's available for 8.95 there are plus shipping at c-span.org slash landmark cases. >> a signature feature of c-span2's book tv is our coverage of book fairs and festivals from across the country. with nonfiction author talks, interviews, and viewer call in segments. coming up, book tv will be live from the 32 nld annual miami book fair. the coverage starts on saturday, november 21st at 10:00 a.m. eastern. authors include representative john lewis discusses i had book, "march, book two."

peg pegy noonan who talks about her book, "the time of our lives." judith miller joins us to discuss "the story, a reporters journey." and ted koppel on "lights out: surviving the aftermath." on sunday, speak with the authors live. first, p.j. o'rourke takes your calls. then msnbc joy ann reid will take questions about barack obama, the clintons and the racial divide. join us live from miami on c-span2's book tv starting november 21st. be sure to follow and tweet us questions on twitter. next a discussion about the upcoming 2016 presidential elections and what american muslims can do to get involved in public policy. this was held by the muslim public affairs council and the new america foundation.

it's an hour and a half. >> there is no introduction for me. i was told i could introduce myself which was an honor. and dangerous proposition. i want to thank everyone for coming and thank you, america, to work at new america and not in this building. after i left, they moved to nicer headquarters which is not in any way a reflection of my contribution to america. i'm a life long lakers fan and they have flown me to los angeles on several occasions. that means a lot to mechlt los angeles is my mecca. so, you know, we're here to discuss the domestic and foreign policy agenda of the american muslim community.

we are here to discuss the domestic and foreign policy of the community and we are the only demographic that has been excluded by high office by a leading presidential candidate and we are one of the only demographics whose shorthand is a name for terrorist, and that despite the fact that we are late into the second term of the -- i was hoping i was the first person to make the president joke, and i don't know, i just got here, but hopefully. i am. finally, muslims in the lead. this panel is different than the previous ones, and this one is open to media. if you are muslim, you know what it's like to be recorded so behave normally like you would anyway, and there is media here and i was told to let you know media in the back is open and eager to speak to people after the panel if there is anything you would like to contribute or add or provide to the conversation. i will introduce each of the four amazing panelists and each of them will have five minutes

to make an opening presentation and the whole point is for you to ask questions, this is a panel whose whole purpose is to get us talking about our domestic and foreign policy agenda in our communities and talk about where we are going to be in the terms of the upcoming election, 2016 election, how we are going to do something about it, and ask your questions and debate and see this as an opportunity to think through out loud with the smart people in this room what we can do and should do and shouldn't do. beginning and starting on my left, alex cole, brings more than a decade of experience. i am just going to give a brief biobecause i know we are running late, and my apologies. i am a representative of the muslim empire. and our next panelists -- oh,

here, my apologies. ajdurrani, empowering and motivating grass root entities, established to improve and increase political awareness, especially the muslim, arab and south asian populations. finally, an international treasurer, and she is the associate and counselor to the united states senator, spencer abraham. please give them a round, our amazing panel. we will start with alex who has a presentation and then we will move on from there, thank you.

>> i promise it's a short presentation. there are three slides. i actually spoke at this forum last year, and was there anybody in the audience who was here for that? oh, good. i was worried it was going to be three quarters of the room. i brought different material this time from a really extensive research project that i did about a year or two ago on how to improve perceptions of american muslims, so as we are talking about elections, as we are talking about policy reforms one very important thing to keep in mind, policy is born of

perceptions of people. if fundamentally a group of people is viewed positively, the policies that are created that impact that group of people are going to be much more sympathetic to its interests, think of groups of people that are revered in american society and the policy outcomes that those groups experience are much better than those when the group is fundamentally viewed more negative tea, and this is not news to anybody in this room, american muslims are viewed very negatively, and we did a thermometer poll listing off a

dozen different groups of people in america and asking people how do you feel towards these different groups of people, and unfortunately, american muslims ranks last under every other religion in america and other groups that are sometimes viewed negatively like latinos and gays and lesbians. so what do we do about it? first we have to get real about understanding what is the problem. what does the audience thing? what do americans think and policymakers think that drive those negative stereotypes and perceptions? second, we have to test different messages that will address those negative perceptions. first, going to what is the problem? this is one of the problems.

two-thirds of broadcast news media in america associates muslims and islam with extremism and terrorism. yes, i'm in a pylon with ben carson and marco rubio and donald trump and criticize the media and say it's their fault for everything. in this situation, what is so damaging about such negative media coverage, most americans don't know a muslim, and in the absence of personal experience, media fills that void so stereotypes portrayed by the media and hollywood are what people walk away with. so what do we do about it? first, to address terrorism, and i want to preempt this, the question has come up many times before in forums like this, well, should we even respond when the community is unfairly accused of being involved in terrorism? and my emphatic response is we have to, and the audience already believes that so if we ignore it they will continue to believe it, and that may not be fair, but if we want to change the audience's mind, that's what we have to do. i am jumping to the answers we tested a whole bunch of different answers to make them feel different, and there was two messages we found most effective when you are trying to do that. both of them work because both of them focus on security. too often the message that people will use is we need to -- it's the kumbaya message, and we need to embrace everybody in america and preserve civil liberties and that's why we can't have over aggressive surveillance policies that target one community of people, and that falls flat because it doesn't address the audience's realistic concern about

terrorism and their own safety. so we're in a better place when we use messages like this. the first one here, we are stronger and safer together in a face of a threat when we stick together, and the job for americans now is to remain united and that means not targeting innocent americans because they are muslim what that is doing is saying we should not single out a single group in american society because that makes us less safe, we are stronger together. see how different that is than we shouldn't just single out a group in american society because that's the constitution, and in this context, they are not thinking about the constitution but safety and that's where we need to meet them. and another one that is effective is offering an

alternative solution to surveilling one community or tactics that you might use against an entire community of people, and we should target terrorism on evidence and not based on their religion. why does that work? it's intuitive and makes sense. should we have a scatter shot approach and survey millions of people or go after those who the evidence tells us are probably guilty? that makes more sense, and it makes more sense in terms of that's a more affective way to get to the security outcome that we want.

so when engaging in this conversation, when it's necessary, those are two messages that are highly affective to use. so last point -- that's how we counter the negative. you also counter the negative by promoting the positive. fundamentally, what is the best way to tell the american muslim story that will fundamentally make people feel better about the entire community? we in a series of more than a dozen focus groups around the country tested this question, gave participants a whole bunch of different stories about american muslims and then isolated the elements of those

stories that seem to ingender the most positive feelings and we found the most effective ones are stories where you talk about a person's heritage, the contribution that they are making to society, and where you invoke a shared value, and when you skip any of those things, the story and total is not as effective. i will dwell on the first one. so when you are doing focus groups with people on a topic like immigration and how people feel towards latinos, which are a central character in the debate over immigration policy, everybody has a story or at least a stereotype in their head about why latinos come to america, and it's to make a better life for their family and it's the american immigrant journey golden dream story and it's actually very positive and one of the most effective messages that the immigration reform community has. the challenge here, when we in focus groups showed people pictures of muslims and said why did this person come to america, they were like, i have no idea. when we press them, they are like, i don't know if they came to make a better life for their family or if they came here to carry out a terrorists act. in a situation where you don't have some kind of personal experience, you fill it what whatever the media is saying, so if they are telling you stories of muslim equals extremists, that's how the story gets

populated. and if you say this person came to america because they were making a better life for their family, or, shocker, they were born in america, they were born in columbus, ohio, that really rocks people in the head, that challenges -- that populates that little blank slate with something positive. that's an essential part of the story and if you can incorporate a contribution that person is making to society, are they a doctor, that's helpful, and then finally invoking some shared value, the other undercurrent that i did not talk too much about are concerns that american muslims are culturally are an other, so muslims evoking american values, they also believe them, and it helps people understand this is a community of people that i

fundamentally share the same values with, so there's a whirlwind tour of a couple thoughts on how to fundamentally improve the way people perceive american muslims which will help to pave the way for the kinds of electric -- electoral outcomes. >> thank you. >>. >> it's good to speak to you. in the name of god, the merciful, the mercy giving. thank you so much back for this opportunity. actually, i want to do -- i have so many thoughts and ideas inspired by the greatest speakers. this is the topic given to me,

what does effective muslim americans look like? i chose three different examples, and one is 1990s, one in 2005, and one in 2015. so how many of you know that muslims are the core of that campaign? you have heard it anywhere? well, i forgive those who are not born yet in 1995 or something. so this was the shape. well, going back a little bit, the campaign was funded by mosque, and that lady sitting over there with the islamic foundation, they brought the mosque of chicago together, and it was $50,000 for this campaign, and we started the bosnia task force which was based in sound vision, and we aligned ourself with a national organization of women now, and

we have demonstrations in 100 cities, and we lobbied in congress, and it went to the house and the united nations, and first time in human history, not in geneva convention one or two, it's the first time in history when rain should be a war crime, and it went on, and total cost, $50,000. second, i'll take you to illinois became the first state required by law of the state to cover all young people under 18 with health coverage, and that campaign was brought and worked with united power, and thanks to the interfaith interaction, the muslims were the core group, and there were labor unions, and united power, it went to the assembly, and then the governor signed that and then the program was there, and total cost of doing that, $10,000. emphasis, mosques thinking together, and working in

alignment with other groups. i will give you one more example, which is current of this year, and i work on different causes and i have not found a cause more difficult to work on than this, and again, it was the mosques that came forward who asked for something to be done on this particular issue.

well, i wish i could incorporate a little more. anyway, if it can come through, that's great, otherwise i will continue without that. again, it was the chicago community that got together, and provided initial funding and we thought since it's not done on tv how do we handle that? one of the things we did is we went and brought -- we had a conference at harvard university and yale, and then there was a conference sponsored by the bosnia task force, and then there, seven noble peace back

laureates helped. more and more mosques and more and more cities are open towards engagement once they understand what you are doing and what your agenda is, and it's not broad or vague, and they can figure out in a ten-minute board meeting, and if they understand that they will move forward with it. so if elections are coming we need to think of mosques in america more like black churches, what would it be like without black churches? many of the black churches file the certification just to maintain their independence, but given 80% of all activities can be done with 501c3. i understand not all mosques are the same, but this is a major unit of activism, and that's where all the papers are districted and that's where a community comes to know what are the current issues, and these

bills don't come one year, and they continuously come in the parliament of the world's regions, and i he said thank you. each of these have continued year after year after year. and islam phobia is hitting the mosques, and how we can translate that into activism in the future, and this is the islam now, and so they're sick and tired of it, and they are looking for people, honest voices who look at hate as one secretary, and more and more people are doing, and i have 100 imams that signed a statement on that. these are serious concerns, there are thinking what they can do looking for resources. so those concerned about future

engagement, i think if you understand the mosque vocabulary, and talk about what the phobia is doing to mosques, and translate that as being directly connected to radicalization, so if america understands the vocabulary, and if we can connect that, there

will be a greater opportunity for organizations and entities to have a more successful program. thank you. >> thank you. >> aj durrani.

>> good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. the topic i am going to be talking about is best practiced on strategizing priorities and agenda moving forward with the 2016 elections and it's really appropriate because the organization that i belong to is really involved in engagement and participation. the survey that was done a few years ago identified muslims and in general asians as being in the united states among the most affluent and educated communities, yet one thing that distinguishes them from other similar communities is their apathy towards political involvement and that's not just voting but engagement and participation and that's basically what i'm going to be talking about.

you talked about islam phobia, and a week ago today, there was an election in houston, and there was a muslim, a sal taeugs and also the president of the islamic society running for the second highest position after the mayor, and unfortunately he was not successful and lost by a narrow margin, and nobody identified him as a muslim and said if you elect him, sharia is going to be the law or running our budget because obviously sharia can do everything in our part of the united states, and the reason is engagement. the muslims of houston at least are no longer identified as terrorists, and they may bg the doctor next door or the professor at the university or the job lady who is at the election booth who asked you, can i see your papers, please. that's my story that i will go

forward with. i have a bunch of graphics and i will go fast because i have a short period. what is our strategy? educating the community. if you just tell people go to vote, nobody does, but when you engage the community, inform them and educate them about the importance of engagement in the american political spectrum, they coupling out to vote. we provide a whole bunch of workshops and i will go over that in more detail, and what you are trying to do is to engage them and persuade them rather than just asking them to become a voter. the other thing i want to talk about is the agenda for 2016, which is strategies, and i will show you on the map, muslims are scattered throughout the united states but we are also

concentrated in some areas, very strategically, in those swing states that can be the difference in the upcoming election. so what is this, it's a nonprofit organization, and we have introduced what it stands for, but it has a 501 advocacy. it's not a new organization, and part of it is 10-years-old and we have officers in several cities, several of the critical states, and officers in florida and an office in houston and new york and philadelphia and an office in michigan, and we shall hopefully have an office in ohio and columbus in 2016 as well as california and new jersey. emerging waters, which is educating waters getting them to understand why it's important to be involved in the american

political spectrum, and the participation is involving and engaging in the major political parties, and it's really difficult to say that you are part of the spectrum, and you have over 200 young people who have graduated from our program and when you look at the muslim community, it's more like a red bar bell. the guys standing in front here right now and the younger people, and yet for the younger people, through the basic social media, they are getting information, but for the majority of the other folks, the american regular process of engagement does not work with them, mail ads or television, you have to contact them and approach them in the way they understand, and that's where we have the emerging data program for them. so what is our strategy?

the 501c3 engages in education, and we have young people informed about the politics, and then in houston, we buy radio time, one hour on several radio stations, and there's chinese radio stations, and bangladesh radio stations, and then the community understands the election and will come out to vote in larger numbers. and also we take our newspaper ads in the newspapers. we also get involved in leadership in the political structure, which is how do you get with the republican and democratic parties so they understand the communities have a say, and are the challenges, apathy, and funding. you need to hire staffers to get the work done. and we just cannot get excited four years from when the presidential election occurs, and oh, yeah, this is the time we need to work, but we need to

work every year. the advocacy part is to promote those areas we are interested in, like mobilization and legislation in florida, it comes up every year and every year because of the collaboration with the political parties over there, we are able to get it down. support mainstream legislation, and muslims cannot be identified only as a single factor community, surveillance, terrorism, we need to say, yes, we are part of education and part of health care and so on, and we do polling to identify in the muslim community what are the important areas we are wanting to focus on. for the political action, all parties are local. we gather money and give it to

candidates who are like-minded and we participate heavily in local races. pictures of our involvement. who governs us? you always think of the presidential election, but, no, there's a city government and a county and a local and district and school board, so when you look at the ballot in any major city, you are like 50 people you are going to vote for and one or two you have interests, and that's the education you give to people. the other thing is, elections not only occur in november, and there are the primaries that take place, and that voting percentage is low, 10% or less, if we can mobilize people, we have selected the candidate in november, so primaries do matter. here's a newspaper ad we took

for the elections, and we have found that when we take ads in ethnic newspapers it has a far larger impact than if we bought time on television. the last part is party organization, if you don't get involved in a party you can't get our candidate to become a viable nominee in the party, so we idea the structure of getting people elected and the structure of getting delegates. one thing i did not mention, i am what they call a comedy man for the texas democratic party out of about 200,000 voters within the area, so i'm not just a muslim candidate who happens to represent muslim voters, i represent the democratic party in that area. and this is a ballot, and the last election, those things that are ser kuled in red are muslim candidates running for office. we have five muslims who have been e elected to the state executive level. and then delegates out of texas alone there. over the last three presidential

cycles the muslims in the democratic party have had more national delegates from texas than any other state. the road map for 2016, we need the identification of communities, and specific states, and a dialogue with national campaigns and development of local leadership that can work within the state rather has not the central organization telling them what to do. our demographics is focused on where muslims are in critical mass and we are looking to acquire a list of non -- muslims who are nonmuslims, who are citizens but not registered to

vote yet, and then boots on the ground, you have 20 hire people, you can't have everybody do it on a volunteer basis like i do. this is a map of what the presidential election looks like. the democrats have 237 electric trul votes, and then the republicans 206. and texas is a large red state for the republicans, but there are other states like florida and others that have -- and ohio, we have -- and virginia, we have muslims that can have an impact on the upcoming election. this is a map of the fourth largest county in the united states, and in there are whites,

and muslims there, and look how the map changed over the last 30 years. this is what it looks like now. this is where if you focus on areas where muslim concentrations, we can have a look like in houston and that's our strategy. we have moved from voting two to one for the republicans against clinton when he won his election, to presently right now, and we're 2 to 1 voting for the democrats. so the nation has turned towards democrats, and i'm not pushing the democratic party. we have offices in these states and we are looking to open in places like ohio which can have a major say as far as the next election is concerned. thank you very much. i don't have any slides, but i do enjoy sitting on a panel with such experts where each one of us, i think, talks about a different aspect of advocacy. i think my presentation fits quite nicely into all of these comments. i would like to drill down a

little bit, specifically on the 2016 elections, not just the presidential, but of course one-third of the united states senate is up for election as well as all 435 members are up for election, and all the state and local level races are also going on. what does effective advocacy look like? i would like to start by saying this, effective advocacy can be a traditional way and nontraditional ways, so first, of course, and this applies to every candidate out there, and as a community you can submit a questionnaire, and most campaigns and candidates do accept questionnaires but they don't always answer them, so impact together with other muslim organizations can lead in developing a questionnaire and submit those to the presidential candidates. the second way of effective

advocacy, frankly as a muslim american who is interested in politics, show up at a town hall meeting, and show up at one of the hundreds of events that go on every year with candidates, particularly now in this intense season of presidential races, you can personally meet, and in the presidential party one of our 14 lovely candidates, and in the democratic party, one of the now three candidates. meeting that person, and i can give you hundreds of examples of that, whether it's bernie sanders and the woman standing up recently at a forum, or, you know, the questioning of donald trump at his forum. so show up at a town hall forum and ask a question that is relatable to most americans, but represent your community proudly. the third is more of a strategy

thing. be proactive rather than reactive temperature get out there and continue to educate like the panelists talked about today on a continuous basis. don't wait for a crisis to happen, and that's very offensive to muslims in america, so try to be proactive about your agenda. another way of affective advocacy is open letters to candidates, certainly working with the media, and working online with blogs and working with news letters and others. open letters to a candidate. you ask a candidate questions and you expect them to answer. we do that publicly. that puts more pressure on a candidate to respond back to you. again, these days anyone can have a place. can you write. can you draw. you can use any manner as a community. do not feel like you have to be appointed spokesperson of your

community. you don't have to. you have that power in your very own hands. i would encourage you to develop relationships with the media. i know we have media here in the back of the room today. i swear they are all living, breathing, thinking human beings with hearts and they will listen to your stories. whether they're your personal stories or concerns. they tlik engage with individuals. and the more you build up relationships with the media, starting with the locals and the state and the national level, that is extraordinarily effective for your community. i know probably in the question and answer i'll hear a lot of complaints about how your voices are not heard in maybe main strooed stream, particularly on television and talking heads. the muslim community understands

but you very rarely see an american talking about that. there needs to be more than that. you establish relationships with the media. with the people in the media who are responsible for putting people on television. they're called bookers. they're nice, young men and women who work 24/7 for very little pay. and they're always looking for people who have expertise in different areas. i think alex, you had mentioned some of the talking points that alex presents today. can you always read up on it. again, something that we sneed a one page talker on a particular issue. a one page talker on current events. a one page talker on muslim americans and their contributions. that helps. because that gives a more confident and organized message that when you do go out and

speak and advocate and talk to your politicianors write them in the papers or blog or go online, you're all on the same page representing that issue. another important thing, again, alex -- you touched on this -- very important for the american latino community to relation to the american community at large. and what am i talking about when i say that? much of this phobia fervor emminates because americans think muslims are the other. very psychological thing. i'm not a psychology majer and never was. i was a political science major. but much of this is psychology in the american psyche. so part of this is when you're talking to politicians, when you're talking to the american public, when you're talking in the media, you have to use language that relates to them. so what do do you? you start out with the original grounding. islam is one of the great, great

religions in the world. judaism, christiancy and islam. you're going to bring the temperature down a little bit. you also could talk about specific ideas certainly within the faith that people have great misconception onz. can you also talk about current events. so let's faulk abotalk about 9/. people want to talk about 9/11 where many of the islam phobia started. the 19 hijackers, none of them were american you muslims. none of them had american citizenship. and, in fact, none of them intergrated themselves nor buried themselves into the american muslim community y? because had they, our community would have said what are you doing here? where is your family from? what village do you come from? why are you not in school? why are you going flight school in florida? they would have questioned them. those 19 hijackers never were

born in michigan. they were never in places in which there was a high concentration of muslim-americans. so you really need to push back on this idea that somehow american muslims were a part of 9/11. now has radicalization increased since then in this country? absolutely. for a variety of reasons. but that's an important thing to gain ground. other idea is using american lexicon and american ideals. so, for example, there was an interview and sad that he doesn't believe, his personal belief is that a woman should not be elected or hold office as president of the united states. i am a republican and i made a statement. seen i was called by the huffington post and npr and others to make comments about it.

they reached out to me. and i said, yeah. i find it a problem. the comments that i made, well, it started with the u.s. constitution article 6 of the u.s. constitution says there shall be no religious prejudice. then i went on to use examples of two american muslims in the united states congress. both who swore and took an oath to uphold the u.s. constitution. but wait. i'm not done. he actually took an oath of office and it is owned by who? thomas jefferson. how more american can you get than that? >> and so with dr. carson again made a comment about the different pyramids, i'm of the

egyptian heritage, i couldn't take him on on that one. i thought let him swim into the sea for that one. i think people realize. so i think what you need do when speaking to politicians and speaking up about these issues, particularly in this tike r cycle and it's only going to get worse, the 2016 cycle, that you relate somehow to american ideals. one thing i probably don't have to tell you is now this is no longer a 24-hour news cycle. now it's four hour news cycle. something happens, it goes online. you'll see it maybe on the "nightly news" at 6:00 tore 10:00. tomorrow morning on the front pagest "post" or "the times" or the walt journal, that's where it will be. right now the cycle is four hours. you better get on it and you better bond to it quickly, particularly when, again, it is politicians running for office to make these types of comments.

i will say please do not criticize. so please take the opportunity to also commend and thank candidates when they do stand up and support muslim americans. there will be no religious cap for anyone serving in the government. and so people need to reach out to carly fiorina and tell her thanks for. that finally ashgs little bit about beyond. i know part of this is what can you do for effective advocacy in 2015 and beyond. let's go to the top. whoever is elected president, this community must, must be sure that white house position, they deal with outreach to the arab and muslim community is stacked. usually they combine arab and muslim americans. i can tell you in the bush administration, we had that

person. there were certain people within the bush administration but it was always an arab muslim american. i can not say for the same for this administration. with someone other than the next man or african-american or jewish american or let's j go down the line. that should be something we look forward to 2016 or beyond. whoever is president in 2016, impact can lead the way. keep a resume bank of individuals that are highly qualified and want to serve in the u.s. government. i'm more than happy to help with you training session onz political appointments and how you get that, strength, power being appointed to very political positions throughout. and foonll lfinally, i would sa whoever is elected president, please try very hard to keep that person, he or she, accountable, accountable to their campaign promises they made and accountable on their

policy aspect of issues that are important to this community whether they be domestic or i.?ational. so with that, i am certainly happy with the rest of the panel to answer any questions. thank you. [ applause ] >> so we're going have a mike going around the room. so we really like your questions, comments and thoughts. please just when you stand, identify yourself and we're going by the jeopardy rule which is questions should in be the form of questions. so, with that, floort is opthe is open. >> hi. i'm a middle east policy analyst with the friends committee on national legislation. thank you all very much for being on the panel and giving comments. i had a quick question and maybe i'll direct this to a.j. on, you know, it's really great that we live in d.c. and surrounded by, you know, politicians and we're

all in this space and i deal with this policy every day. but when it comes to our community where we need the grassroots power to actually get policy done, how do we deal with the general apathy that is taking place in our community that i know whether it's care, i helped start a youth leadership in houston where i'm from, and it's still very, very difficult for us to get people engaged and sign up for the programs. and, so you know, can you talk about putting the programs in the mosques or starting sunday school classes or putting ads in your local newspapers, but there is still a very, very large divide in actually having people in community involved in this. so what are your suggestions practically speaking on apathy? >> okay, i'll go first. >> thank you for the question. this is something i speak about when i'm up there. onest reasons we try to get the community involved and engaged

is to get them to run for political office at the lowest level. there are thousands in houston and about 10% of our community. our population is less than 1% or 2%. and many times it's not that difficult to get someone elected to them. they're in areas where there are majority of republicans. but we obviously many of us happen to be democrats. so we get democrats elected in republican areas. we then turn around and go to democratic and i can remember when they get elected. that is one way we have 300 delegates from houston to the state convention where we have 70 judge that's are muslims. that's one area we have to focus on. you're right, you were part of the program last year and you're

doing one this weekend. it's grown to 50%st number of applicants or 50% more than we had last year. >> there are many communities and what i have seen is that it is substantial amount of activism in the community. but there is a question. i see a good number of hyperactivity. people are doing more of what they were doing. fear has worked substantially. and this one person who speaks up and the board is hey, this is politics, you cannot do it. the board freezes. so education is needed. a person is looking toward

politics, it can be done. i would also say, you know, i have written a lot about mosques. i don't want to go through all of that. you can google me on those issues. some mosques are better than others. working with those mosques to open ut the rest of the mosque will be a good strategy. when the president of the mosque or board member and we do this and we do this and achieve this, their organizations will accept. i have also found that the regional organizations which are developing like in chicago and the islamic population up there in chicago. i was there for 40 years. it started without 40,000 and in a year it was a budget of $1

million. and people saw that example more and more mosques wanted to be affiliated with that. they wanted to be part of the success story. so i believe it's changing.