this was argan bilson. >> in november 1945 or crimes began in nuremberg. the trials lasted until 19 the six. americananniversary history tv is erring in history interview with the former chief prosecutor for the united state.

he was born in transylvania to a jewish family and immigrated to america as in the. illicitly army after earning his law degree. in this interview he discusses the anti-semitism the eighth and his memories of time europe. this is the first of a three-part interview. about two hours. >> the company benjamin. that i needed a middle -- middle

initial and i have none. by the time i got out of lost i wish benjamin varo pharrell. where were you prior to law school? >> we came his immigrants to the united states was raised in new york. my father got a job as a janitor. those were my earliest recollections. from there i went to new york public schools my parents divorced when i was six. seventh to brooklyn and that's why started. and speak english and they wouldn't take me to the goal. was merely new

york. school with an accelerated curriculum. from there i went to city college. >>t was your major customer sociology. i was always interested in crime prevention. maybe not related to my early recollections of a highly dense primary health kitchen. if you look at a map of crimes it was live. there were more crimes there than any place else. stimulated my interest in crime prevention. >> or even only child? >> know i had a sister. >> did you booklet with his aunt. >> yes. lived happily ever

after. my parents were related they were assignedho to marriage and birth and it didn't work out. >> let me to go to law school? >> i always wanted to be a lawyer. i don't know where it came from. somehow i always wanted to be a lawyer. is any particular interest in law >> yes. i had no interest in taxes. i have no interest in corporate law. i was immediately involved in criminal law. i did write well and one of dollars in. then i went to work under one of the student aid work professor of criminal law.

the important for my later career. >> when you are in college the word started. >> law school. recall december 7. i mean the u.s. involvement. it was on in europe, but the u.s. involvement began when i was in college. i remember the day when everybody went down. >> read conscious of national socialism and what was doing in germany are going to harvard? >> only a yes. but there was then a large movement to stay out of the war in the early years. inclined toore pathetic to that movement than to anything else. there was a general awareness of secretion of the jews i remember

a protest rally took place in to protestere garden the boycott against germany for the execution of the jews. it was only when i go to harvard that this professor began to receive report of the atrocities of poland. he then invited by the un's war crimes mission to be the american member. he funneled those reports to me so i was very much aware. we got those reports and 40 and 41. they were quite detailed in the size of the massacres. we did not have the details of leon told the and making matters that a pair. but we knew there were being rounded up and sent to can. nowo give access to mark >>

i did not hear that until years later. we didn't have the characterization until later. >> when did you enlist? >> there's another story there. i still don't go into the army immediately when the war broke out and i tried to get into different branches. first applied for intelligence i knew french. i thought that would be helpful. but my parents and not been citizens for 15 years so i was disqualified. and i tried to get the air force and 1st avenue is too short to be a pilot that i turned the navigator and they change the rules and their reapplied and i failed on one of my eyes.

when i tried to take training exercises of all of that was going on i was still in school. story of very strange some of the watching over me. i tried to get never went to the service until he got out of lost and then went back to my draft word and i was so concerned that nothing in happened in the draft or came up to see me when i said i have been called up with one on? he received a letter from the in the middle my first year sing it would take another month or two and that should give me at the hermit so i didn't have a complete disruption. in the granite that a month off and i would go in. but this member of the draft or came up to me afterwards and energy to law school russian

mark i was very puzzled by that question told the into the student at yale law during world and neverbeen wounded been it will go back to lost in his letter that ruined. he just wanted to protect me from that kind of area. it was strange. i #four #again but reached his why did you want to go and? i could'veis -- >> stayed out of the war. in fact one of the first doctors i was having trouble with my summary i always had a nervous,.

i always felt that i did not want to anyone else to die for me. so i was trying to get it. >> where did you first go? >> the army recognize my talents so they made me a private in the artillery. i was in the supply room as a typist. i couldn't type. fact they did recognize my talent. within 30 days they made me a private class. that reagan 18 month of the general. three years later and still corp. will. regimentation. particularlymy not

the american or german. the dehumanizing rossa take place in army where it are the training person you do is take human beings and make robots out of them. i refuse to become a robot. that cause me in this grief in the army. i was always being reprimanded sentence ap. i refuse to march so that was the dumbest thing i've ever heard of the next lane to my first sergeant that the reason was in roman times when the soldiers had to carry the shields on the right side of left side or over there had an march in formation because they were being attacked with peers from the hills. they did move in formation spheres in a trade and therefore was important that they move the unit and i said that was important. i set up were going to attack

the romans was is on held enough should march. but the guys a machine gun in your marketing and nation he will kill you all read what you have to do is not arch of. ok wiseguy in the kitchen. likely more latrines and more slop than anyone else. it's very good training for later life. it made my resentment greater. i'm absolutely anti-militaristic. think the notion of training human ability -- being to push a button and fill hundred thousand people and think nothing about it is apparent the thing to do. incidentally that's exactly what the german did the concentration camp in me. dehumanizing shave off their hair give them a number lose their identity until you break the human spirit. it didn't work with me. >> how long did you say?

>> power to basic and carolina which was great. marginal day through all those absolutely ridiculous things that you do and i kept on saying there's a war going on is there nothing i can do the sides march? ok wiseguy back to the kitchen. it was a form of torture. it was a terrible time. the major that time on examining board had been my classmate at harvard. he said next me some of you horse.ere of course had a problem passing a that was never called. getting ready to go overseas my

first officer called me and said you want to be officer is your feet patiently torn up and through the trash can area i tried every means to get out of that out it. they called me and and threatened to marshal me for showing this was next to the out i was a wrong outfit. we went on the first wave we

were supposed to go in very soon. when d-day came around i was at the lanes and in england waiting the invasion. map that went over couple of my captain was a new captain and he said you stay here. again it was one of those times when somebody reached out and i was left. went.ey across days later when by that time the germans have retreated from the beach and i was perched on top of the hill manning machine gun to make sure we didn't get any attack the

rear. the war then was just chasing the germans germany. the general's tactic was to pursue. we had no way of repelling the germans. off we went. then of course i was with the all that all across france. and i found out when i was finally discharged i've been in five campaigns that was every campaign in europe. but i thought it must there for me to be shooting people in the head. >> no. the outfit was pursuing we were but we didnk fire

shoot down on lanes. usually american planes. we did not color only ireland. in alanes that were coming gadget that was posting about the signal telling her american in either they forgot the signal where was off the plaintiff been damaged in any case we shut them down and had to go out on several occasions and pick up pieces of american wires in public and find figure out to identify them. fireworks very nice. i don't go to the july celebrations. i don't like fireworks. i was in an outfit commanded by

into semi-. many of the people in the army carryovers from the first world war to get a job. a lot of redneck very frequently owes referred to as jew boy given some of the dirtiest assignments i was told your harvard man do it again. they put me through it again and again. they thought that was great. they absolutely resented any effort of mine get out of the out become an officer anything that i area there's a lot of antagonism between me and the carefully talk about typical of other outfit. it was great to for this one.

it did not apply to all officers but it certainly to my first a measure who would them. with you to get involved with the war crimes team russian mark it was before we reach look number. luxembourg. i was called in the open and as ayour being sent out big shock and surprise to me because i try to get out and couldn't. i've been warned over shipped out of the box. then i read the third army headquarters of the judge advocate center.

i was told i'd been recommended for transfer from washington ms the unit had been instructed to set up for crimes branch and the colonel told me that the unit was given to us what's a war crime? he had no idea what was meant by war crime. said that down your about to get an education and he set down and i explained to them because by that time i was quite an authority. i don the research. i read everything that had been written about work in the first world war and my job was to make summaries of everything that have been written in all book. i was the only one who knew anything.

what does that mean? kernels and ive was the only enlisted man was assigned to that out it. who werels were people shellshocked mostly take officers. i don't recall that time that any of them were lawyers. they certainly had no idea about work arms. some of them i never saw sober some were obviously shellshocked. i said to the kernel we need help. we were beginning to get words of various crimes against american iron is that it been shut down places that have been liberated and mass graves. first a few days the reinforcement arrived and it was a fellow who was a much bigger

than me he was a year-long graduate. instrument engineer battalion redmond busy building a bridge. mud and hered with stood at attention of diluted me. duty i reporting for said get off that i'm just a orbital. originally was just the two of us. what did you do? the wenvestigation would liarsreport of american would come down amid killed by the populace down below. report anded such a gone through military intelligence down to the war

crimes unit. whatever do then is getting 3g and take off for the location very often by myself. or i would have a jeep driver. i would arrive at the site and go to the nearest authority of burger meister police chief and say we have a report of war crimes being committed here to know anything about this sit down and write out an affidavit. describe everything you know. if you lie you will be shot. to to arrest everybody with some 500 yards this case and bring them in here and sit down and have them right iatements explain to them learned german it mentally but at that time a german was very broken it was yiddish mostly. i managed to make myself understood enough to get the job done i would say it's a million is english and german and

thatin to these people they need to sit down and write out exactly what happened. anyone lies will be shot and they would stand at attention tremble and sit down and write and i would say keep them apart. i would like statements and linger read them area pretty soon. 75 statements you get or even telling you the same. but with the 40 unit was happen. on this date allied english on down to american liars were they were beaten or taken to the gestapo and there were many such cases. then i would go to the gestapo importers and see if i could catch the man. i would capture the records and find out who was in charge then

go find the bodies of the amount. sometimes it didn't myself sometimes a cold graves administration sometimes i would stop the germans insist are digging. body of ther the camera crew take pictures watch the announcement identify them in the right to report an issue an arrest warrant to arrest at that time zones prisoners of war were being captured and identified. that kind of an investigation i could do it myself and i did. eventually the people were caught. eventually sometimes a matter of weeks or months. united states army war crimes began as's where we active poetic justice.

the first war crimes trial was one or number to listen to how -- it took place indachao before we ran to the concentration. that was a big operation. >> how many trials were there don't have the exact number because i left the trials were early on when i was there. there were still going on my year so later was prosecuting a number. the trials were still going on. you be some idea of labor those trials i thought they were terrible. there was a resemblance to the due process. i must confess i was partly guilty of response for that kind of behavior.

cutd an assessment in my the and he insists the online usuallywas the mayor ended up with a confession. it was not that i'd shoot them at get it but he certainly was under the impression that if he continued line that would. under those circumstances i would always tell them that bring in about certain until them to get the confession again. themselves the thees were officers procedures were informal. we to me guilty ones to let

loose. i was not very impressed the quality of the work done at dr. al. is that this is a disgrace. we've forgotten ideals. most of my more interesting apprehending minor criminals are collecting there were massacres of civilians in different towns mass graves. nothing nearly concentration camp himself. no.efried? >> i was mad. i don't recall ever having any sense of the year. some outrage, it was not vengeance.

but i was quite determined and it was a job that i realized had begun. there was no time for fear. nor was there any. i don't know that emotion. >> did you actually have authority to go into a some say accordinging you? >> to my rank i have no authority whatsoever and i was aware of that but i had more authority than anybody else because nobody else knew or cared what i was doing. i gave myself that authority. i had written out an authorization request on the commanding general saying all units are requested to give all assistance to t5 and it who was conducting

war crimes investigation and using that to go to a kernel and me theant you to send company of troops to surround this area. whatever it was a needed to do. sometimes the kernel know i would say the woman call them no respect had whatsoever for military or the area and the higher the rank the more content. it invariably worked very well. i know difficult the in -- i wanted no insignia -- i wore no insignia. the colonel said i realize this i want to give the

stripes and he made me a sergeant. such a strike and i threw my trashcan i said i'm sorry sir but the stripes only interfere with my work. cannot command the authority that i need to do the job so you excuse me if i don't wear them and he was very insulted by that and i think the final act that he did before he was transferred the left instructions to have me reduced to private. i refuse to wear the strike. all of my work pictures you will never find any insignia on me. was your reason for not doing the strike is you can do your job #>> absolutely.

again it was the question what authority did i have? the job had to be done so i got job done than i did not pay any attention to the absence of rank. me toanted to promote start a long before and i refuse. us to give it to him. laugh that was before the tribunal where did you go then? i will describe to you the earliest crimes investigations which were killing of hostages shooting and belgium down flyers. first --o the mall i was much involved

with later. we did not know those names. we knew it was a concentration camp the third army headquarters. said so-and-so is approaching an area in which they believe there is some tracing. horrible.ions are that would come to me i would send going on to the hill to investigate that. later on we had others. i was very eager to go out because it was the most aryans and no one else they want to do going out men's i would get there as fast as i thought we could. find out what unit and bill the camp. immediately do would be to secure the record.

there was in every camp in office. seized everything in it area nobody and nobody out records confiscated and secured. death.d the there were long big black box found. they had a report on the name of all the inmates of their were killed. their put down next to the date the name the date of birth of the inmate in the number. deathhe reason for his and they were all obviously fake typhoid shot trying to escape. those books then became the basic evidence for what happened

in the camp. then i would follow that up by bringing in witnesses from the survivors to take statements from them describing what happened in the camp. that usually took several days. basis of the big picture if you go back to headquarters write a report an issue arrest more. >>. again. you said there was a prisoner there have been bearing material. i'm not sure was there and back. i was moving very quickly from one can connect. as soon as i secure the evidence had there was another camp i raced off because if he didn't do that everything was destroyed. ineric and army would come and destroy everything they could. so i was moving from one camp to another.

these additional labor camps all around many of them i would go saveone camp to the neck usernames i recall the come to mind. in one of those camps one of the inmate came to me as soon as i came in and that i've been waiting or you. he said come with me. he took a shovel and he took me out of the room which was the office we walked away into the camp. itt to the electric fence

that the whole it was right to the post of offense that the whole of it to get a bundle wrapped in red. he said let's go back to the apparentlypened it the ss particular camp have their own sort of social club where they went drinking at night and membership was evidenced by little identity card. photographstheir and check out how many times they tended the at the name of the man and the date of earth as well as the membership. filled gotands were another card. was told to get a

new one and destroyed old one. every time he did that he ran the risk of being killed. he save the money put them altogether and buried them knowing one day there would be a day of reconciliation. and so he risked his life every hope that there would be freedom for him someday. and identification of every man have gone through that. was it like for you to go i'm suree camps? >> that everybody by this time missing the photographs of one of a look like. bodies lying the dust naked little items loving on. many of them not new moving some of them stirring. men weighing 5060

medical troops came in at the same time people were being hosed down all that with one and then of course the piles of bodies stacked up like cordwood and on the cards that were dragging them to the crematorium. i remember all that very vividly towards. is worthyk me i think human beings who been so dehumanize that in their appearance they looks like

rodents. there we go on all fours hands turned laws looking potato deals just like rat grabbing trying to find some bit of food stacking in dutch stuffing it into their mouth quickly. beings withinn dehumanize by these terrible i always marveled in later years when i would meet people who are didn't recognize but i knew they'd been through that and they would say to me quite normal. i knew they couldn't be quite normal. if you touch some spot the crack will show. this whole process of what happened to human being struck me as more terrible than people who were on the verge of death are dying.

camps was terrible. they were killing people by throwing them off the cliff into and of courseow the mass graves everywhere. there was tightness in the camp. i could not spend the night there and get out as best i could. i did my working got out. dysentery. people lying around in their own though in the bunks one top of the other 345 and upon everybody is take throwing up of events. andstench in the disease the despair of someone holding

up a hand for a glass of water or drink. it's really quite unimaginable that peopleern mind could subject other people to that kind of treatment. it's something i will never ever from. >> monitor questions. did you have to leave? >> not to get away from the scene. the work was so overwhelming. it was though i just of the wall to cut it out. as to go ahead and do it had to be done.

i left the conditions were such a was dangerous to day. but only after i'd done what i had to do. with the prisoners ever in any conditions of the could be talked to a smart >> many of them those of the ones from whom i collected sequence immediately. some of them were in very good shape. such good shape they went chasing after the ss. an ss man trying to escape murder by the prisoners chasing him. on in a civilian jacket an attempt to escape and he said i saidake me prisoner show me your papers and he showed me and i could see was an

ss, said these are not your i said i don't take civilian prisoners of? and that that point these two russian inmates come across that that took it out the solemn coming in the reign of the meiji there were troops moving up to the front and just as he ran in from the g one of the men shot them in the back fell in front of the truck that hit him. in the truck driver jumped out and said i will happened he jumped up from the trap and i said keep moving and rolled them into the ditch. themselves were on a rampage soon as this for open. any german who was within reach

route the day the strip their homes read their women in their many whown there were were quite capable still working and thinking and talking. those who seem to be knowledgeable and better educated i tried to catch them describingatement some of the torture mechanisms chains and walls that shot people against. fore was an ample field credible reliable testimony from the inmates himself. i collected that whenever he could. common >> itather depends on how we say.

the person who could hardly lift her head had no healing of revenge. two were not that we. they wanted to kill as many germans as they could get hold of. i've seen them beating inmates to death burning them alive. it was a very gory business. feeding guards. they beat them up not to kill them if they wanted to burn them alive. i suppose as a soldier and mother tried to stop them but i was usually loan the tanks and coming gone those who have been able to lead flee fled. they were seized by the inmates and take care of.

i met the russians outside of dharma. we were sort of fraternizing. why don't you asked them what they did? kill them. and they did. we had a different approach to were american>> soldiers overshot? >> i never saw that no. set perhaps in combat. they were fired at him should the five i am sure there were casualties of any such exchange. but taking out assessment for revenge i never saw an execution.

nor do i recall having heard that you fusion. there were many women a lot of children. boys children who were born in the camp. in these labor camp there was all network read outside the main camp different distances whatever they did by way of work and sometimes they were small children doing things curling wires where little hint was better than a big one. there were gypsies as well. very soon you have a gypsy with a wagon and the horse.

>> did you go into minicamps? one camp to the next as fast as i could. was important to get in his last as possible. otherwise the word -- the evidence was destroyed. by the summer got up to the windowmess the main there was in the splinter glass lab. every file cabinet in every there washem filled nothing there. not that there been much there in the first place.

it was very important to preserve the evidence in some of weekly. >> what then happened? he was doing the same thing from someplace else. we would leave the office of the review them occasionally we would go out together. you cover this october that. then we would come back to our we usually took over german concerns. we had a room in a desk in a typewriter. i would get back to whatever notes i have whatever documents i had and write a report that would say on certain date u.s. thereroops enter the camp

troops encounter the following scene. originally 50,000 in may 12,000 10000 and been marched out that they or. the officers were so and so immature and was going bodies were stacked in front of the crematorium. it exhibits one through 10. issue orders immediately to have them put on the list and sent for registry of war criminals and aspects. have them distributed to all members of the u.s. army. the goal of my investigation was to describe what happened and collect edible evidence admissible in the court of law could be used to convict the persons responsible of a known

crime under international law. that was the objective and that's what we did. there were a few of us. but the total number was never more than half a dozen or dozen who were competent to know what representative work time and to error report would stand up and court of law. that then became the basic materials for the prosecution to come in and say to the defendant >> you spoke for the war crimes team. >> we were the war crimes team. there were a few officers around for decoration. sinai here. that was it.

one thing that comes to mind what struck me at the time was the mayday celebration in the concentration camps. where the inmates were celebrating their liberation. there was a big tribunal. they were broken down into national. yugoslavs. the members the group marching and they had the flag. the city were they? those of the jews. there was the anti-semitism

still in the camp after liberation. another events strikes me as noteworthy as the camps were being liberated germans tried to move the inmates out. those that were still able to walk in work. they let others to behind to die. marching and they took them to the woods. faltered there were shot. i was able to all of this trail through the wood of mass graves

and i would get the nearest farm. and i would say let's go. we would go out to the woods and there would be newly dug up lays and i would say get some shovels. bodies of people who have been shot in the head usually the skull blown off. lightly covered six inches of dirt something like that. i could follow the trail of crime being committed all along the way. there was nothing you could do. we were trying to overtake the column. some other units of taken over. one of the difficulties are remember was to resist the

temptation to try to read some of these people. we all carried emergency rations of chocolate bars like a brick that we carried in her belt in case you really got a jam you could do with the bayonet. if we fed them it would kill them. a lot of gis were giving away whatever they had. they ate a can of sardines of them. you have to begin by feeding them soon for week a very light soup until their stomach adjusted. it's hard for me. where do i draw the line to mark there were mass bodies everywhere. we buried them outside the camp.

the trenches. i don't think these will those earth. one of my employees became a key man in one asleep organizations. his wife did not know why we were in germany that i will you why. i took the money to or some the camps. this appraisal crosses on them or that's it that's a lot of baloney. the film names of inmates who died at the camp of the mark it was a nightmarish world. something surrealistic about it.

you can >> do you consider the liberation actual liberation? >> it was real liberation. the troops were moving forward and they stumble upon many of these camps. they did not know there were there. in some cases they had report. we knew they were there. what we didn't know was all of these sub-camps scattered all around, i have a list of over 1000 concentration camps run by germans and german industry, and the germans themselves did not know. we had 300 or 400. the so-called small camps had a couple hundred people in them, they existed everywhere and they

were similar. people were dying, they were killed, they were lying around. >> were you told to not feed the prisoners or did you learn this? it.e learned there was no time to sit down and have briefings. it was a very mobile and hectic atmosphere, tension and movement and trauma. if you gave somebody some food, you gave it to them and saw them choke and drop, you did not give it to them anymore. it was pretty well known that the medical men that came in, they began with intravenous feeding and tea and a little soup and that was it. we saw what was going on. >> how would you describe the mental state going through these camps?

you were blocking yourself from feeling anything? benjamin: it was interesting, as i look back on it. the human body has a capacity for survival which enables it to mechanismssulating to prevent yourself from going mad. not recall feelings of rage. i do not recall feelings of fear. i do not recall feelings of hatred. do recall the urgency of doing something and getting the job done before it's too late. as bestbout my business i could and i did it, i think, very well, by putting myself into a mental cocoon which was barriered by an ice ,hich just enabled me to go on

and that ice barrier lasted until it melted, but as long as it was necessary to do the job, as a self protective device, i think. >> now you've gathered all of this material, and the war crimes teams have a lot of this evidence. now what is going to happen? benjamin: the higher headquarters have to decide what to do about the trials. the president has declared we are going to have war crimes trials, henchmen have been put on notice they will be held accountable for the concentration camps and whatever else they did. the government said to act. they were not -- governments had to act. they were not ready to act. the army already had these records, we had the prisoners, we had to do something with them. groupwas a 12th army core

. the general i wanted to be transported to his headquarters. i said, i don't want to do his work anymore, i want to do yours . i want to get out of the army. i recall having nailed up the sign, headquarters third united states army, war crimes trials dock out. liberated by the seventh army, not the third army, but we were occupying, general patton was there. these army officers who had been assigned not because they were lawyers, but because they were at liberty and they needed staff and they had nobody else, and they were going to set up tribunals. these were military tribunals. they're not to be confused with what happened later at the international military tribunal at nuremberg.

these were military style tribunals which existed under the laws of war for a long time. they were staffed by military officers similar to a court-martial. offices, ahave three colonel, major, captain. highest-ranking was the presiding officer. prosecutors were selected by the judge advocate group grade sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't. then they had all these nice reports prepared by me, by a few other guys. another lawyer came on board. they did all the work. they would have these reports, and based on those reports, i would draw the indictment. the indictment would say that s.s. major so-and-so is indicted

for mass murder in such and such camp during such and such period. the evidence is photographs, statements from the survivors, affidavits of witnesses who were there. on the basis of that, the defendant would be asked how do you plead. they would say not guilty. all right, let's proceed with the trial. and they proceeded with the trial. for example, if we're telling stories, i arrested a woman in a town near franklin. it was a typical allied flyer case. in a allied flyer case coming be taken into custody and killed, that was the orders from berlin. this allied flyer came down in

this town and the townspeople began to beat them up. eventually he was taken by a fireman or s.s. man and they split his head with a crowbar and killed him. i knew who that was, and i got a hold of him too. one woman was beating the flyer on the head with a shoe. i think it was her mother who testified against her. she said, i told my daughter not to do that. she said, what is your daughter's name. where is your daughter now? i got a hold of the daughter and i said, you were beating this guy with the shoe? not me. i know it was you. it was your red shoe. you beat him on the head with the heel of a red shoe. that's true, that we had just been bombed, i lost my children, my husband was killed. she was quite an attractive

young woman and i thought, if i got the guy who split his head and the whole mob was beating him up -- i put her under house arrest. i happentrial came up, to be there. -- happened to be there. we got the trial on. of take a look. sure enough, i stop this lady there and i stop the guy who did the job. at a certain point -- the trial did not last long, less than a or two, and that was it. this woman fainted. i said to the doctor, i know that woman. what's wrong with her? he said, she's just pregnant.

one of the prison guards. there's the story. was she trying to avoid a death penalty by getting herself impregnated? what she in love with and it -- with an american g.i.? i think she got 18 months prison sentence or something like that. the guy who split his head was sentenced to death. i don't know if he was executed or not. they did execute some, but not all. those trials came to an and while we were at nuremberg. -- end while we were at numeral dark -- nuremberg. they got orders from the pentagon, the presiding judge said they were crime -- war crime trials are over, go home. and that was the end of that. that's i you deal with war you deal with war crimes.

there were many thousands of verynals, but there were few indictments and fewer trials and fewer which had any significance. these were based on military pattern of military trials against american soldiers for violating the rules of the way ory code and one another, that was the closest analogy to it. significance in international law, no political significance really. hoped it would be more than that but by the time i left the army, it was quite obvious that these trials were not to be given any historical significance at all. they are an earlier record of what happened in the camps which

were liberated by the americans. our goal was to try only those commanding officers in the camps which had been liberated by the american army or those that committed crimes against american soldiers. this probably got into those allied flyer cases. mistakeu think it was a to have these trials based on court martial law? benjamin: wasn't a mistake. anytime you bring anybody to justice, even if it's an inadequate court, it's better than not bringing it to justice at all. as a lawyer it seemed to me it's not something we ought to do. the british favorite that. the russians not only favored it, they did it. , sometimesk justice just, sometimes unjust. i'm sure they killed people who were undeserving, but if you

adopt the theory that any person who sales on a pirate ship must ofect to hang, it was a form rough justice, and i'm not sure the detailed justice in the so-called military commissioners of courts was any better in the long run than allowing a rampage , as the russians did, in cutting it off. army.out of the great day of my life, i was so eager to get away from germany, i never wanted to hear the name german again or germany again or camps or army again. and home i went. and ihome for a few weeks got a telegram asking me to come to washington. expense, please at our would you kindly come to washington, we would like to talk to you. signed by colonel mickey marcus. he later became quite renowned

as a jewish general, west pointer, who went to fight in the israeli army and unfortunately, he was killed there. waras recruiting for the crimes trials, which were being set up at nuremberg. he had somehow gotten wind of was i had been doing and i one of the few people who was qualified by the legal training to withstand war crimes and my experience in the field. job was -- originally he wanted me to go back to the trials, but he was working out of the pentagon. i want to go see him, and i never met him before and he said, benny, we want you to go back to germany. i said, you want me to go back to germany?

he said, yes, we need guys like you. you are going to go back there, we need you. i said, in order to get me to go back to germany, you have to declare war on germany again and be losing. i said, otherwise i don't go back to the army. look, you can't do this. we need you desperately. all these years they did not need me at all. andaid, you know the field you have the right attitude and the right experience and so on. he said, you name your terms. any terms you want. i said, i want go back into the army no matter what because i don't trust the army. you go as aill let civilian and give you a military rank. i said, what rank? he said, i'll make you a kernel. i said for three years the colonels had been sticking it to me. is for me.s

telephoned to i the young lady who had been waiting patiently for 10 years and i said, how would you like to go to europe for a honeymoon? she said, this is so sudden. ice plain the situation and said, i will take the job -- i explained the situation and said, i will take the job for 6 months. and say, io marcus will take the job for six months as a civilian with the rank of full colonel. he said, you've got the deal. draw up the papers. then i got intercepted by a call from also than a candle -- co lonel, would i come and talk to him. he said, i'm going back to nuremberg. the international military tribunal is already in process. justice jackson is there. i'm going to take over after him

and we will set up a series of subsequent trials. i'm going to be in charge and on each staff, and i've heard about you and i would like you to come with me. i say, what have you heard about me? he said, i've heard your occasionally subordinate. i said not correct, i'm usually insubordinate because i will not follow orders that i think are stupid. but i've also been checking up youru and i don't think going to give me stupid orders. if you don't, you cannot get a better man. he said, you come with me. i called marcus and said, i'm off that army job. it turned out that he was an excellent lawyer and he was much engrossed in the old problem of who do you try if you've tried these few leading germans or you have the entire hierarchy of german life also responsible,

that industries, industrialists, the s.s. people, the doctors, the lawyers, all of them conspired together to make it possible for hitler to do what he was doing. to approach was, we have reach out into all the segments of german society in order to demonstrate how it really worked. it was quite fascinating, and i took his word quite seriously. i said, what do you want me to do? i said, with got to get the evidence. i'll go to berlin. you go to berlin, set up an office in berlin. i went to berlin. my wife i had to leave behind. set up the office of the chief of counsel for war crimes, berlin branch. to show you how my arming -- army training stood me in good stead, the first officer they assigned me was in the cellar of on the floor i

found a picture of president truman lying in the dirt, no frame. i said, get me a picture frame. , and ihe picture frame put the picture in and i wrote on it, to my friend benny from harry. a put it on the wall. named terryend freedman. he could've given me that picture. i called up the commanding kernel and said, i'd like to talk to you, colonel. he said, who is this? said, i'm here on assignment from the president of the united states. i want you to come over right away. yes, sir. we have five or six rooms here. we need proper quarters. how are we going to get our job done? sir, andyes

immediately i got a whole building or half of a building right next to general gray's headquarters. we had a staff of about 50 people. the germanall archives, most of the staff were german-speaking, former refugees, many of them jewish, who knew the german scene. we had the german foreign office archives. we had 8 million or 9 million bunkerrty erecrecords in a in the woods. underneath were these tremendous nazi party files. the s.s. was there. we sent this crew out to scour for incriminating evidence and outlined exactly what evidence we are looking for. murder, crime, rape, burning, destruction, racial -- we did not use the word genocide in those days.

two things were necessary, and this is important and the public doesn't know it. to have a successful war crimes prosecution, you need one evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that is specific, known crimes have been committed, two, you need the defendant. if you haven't got both together at the same time, you've got nothing. to bring the two together was not easy. you had the evidence, you didn't have the man. he was in argentina somewhere. you had the men, you do not have the evidence. you knew he was guilty as hell but you did not have the evidence. this crew, which my wife shortly joined, she came over with the first ship load of wives allowed to come to germany, scoured the files and began on the basis of what was coming in to break down the type of cases we might conceivably put together in a

short period of time. we were under great time pressure, which is often forgotten. we had to do this on a limited budget within a fixed period of time because the political scene was changing and we wanted to get these trials over with. the prosecutors were like me or even worse because i knew very little about germany, i did not even know the language properly at the time. the others who came in were from mississippi, arkansas -- they had the funniest idea where germany was. we had a very mixed crew of prosecutors. this process began between berlin, primarily, and nuremberg. a coordination between the two. it was in that context that this plane was flying back and forth.

that's another story. we sent out crews to various parts of vienna to wherever the information came in, and justice jackson had collected a tremendous amount of information in paris from captured nazi archives. our job was to sort out this tremendous, all the german records -- and the german were terrific with records, except the secret ones they destroyed. all this together and understand this and see how it , and this being done by a group of inexperienced young american lawyers, that's the job we had. >> how many months did you have to do this? the time between -- we open the berlin branch and the

first trial went on, i don't remember specifically now but i would guess three months, something like that. 3 or 4 months, something like that. and ready to go to trial, and submit all the evidence to the accused. there's been a lot of misunderstanding. it,ice jackson dealt with the international military tribunal, which was the court that the russians or the french or the british or the americans also dealt with, it's true, it was a trial of the victors only against the vanquished only. we did not try americans that nuremberg. tot has subjected us justified criticism. but the reason for the criticism is that such trials are tainted. it's very difficult to have a fair trial. we tried very hard and i think succeeded.

succeeded by being very careful to make sure that the trials were absolutely fair, and they were. you've heard my criticism of the army trials. the nuremberg trials were not a joke. they were already unfair trials. they were absolutely fair trials. gave the defendants all the evidence which we intended to use against them at least 30 days before trial, the court room was open to the public, including the german public. everything was recorded in english and in german. the records were available to anybody who wanted to read them. the judgments were read in open court, the defendants were all represented i counsel of their own choice, -- by counsel of their own choice, which was excellent former nazi lawyers. rial --d the kind of t

although the nuremberg trial had to take a step forward in some directions to develop international law and although they were trial by the victors, and although some of the victors themselves came with dirty hands, there was no excuse for the accused. the fact that a member of the jury was a murderer himself does not excuse the murderer who sits in the dock. my experience with those trials -- if a person can be objective about it -- they were the biggest advance from criminal law than it ever been taken to that time. >> you sat and watched the nuremberg trials? benjamin: i was in berlin working, collecting the evidence and running the office. it was a big office with a lot of things going on. the records were found in the burnt out gestapo headquarters

in the basement, one copy out of copies at thatd time were accounting chronologically the murders in all the towns by these special , and yoution squads had to have staff to do that to organize. we had trials against the high command, against some s.s. but we had not planned a trial for them. researchers came in with these folders with these daily reports, how many jews they killed in which towns and the report would rate, we entered the town of so and so but in the first 24 hours we succeeded in eliminating -- they always used euphemisms -- 14,312

jews, 816 gypsies. they sent that to berlin. they would consolidated from all these units in the field and issue a report. said they didn't know. all the ministries were getting copies of these reports. he gave it to me. i said, my god, we have a chronological listing of mass murder. i flew down to nuremberg and i presented this to the chief of counsel and yet to decide if it was going to be tried. he said this was terrific, where can we use it? i said, it's a separate trial all by itself. we have the name of all the commanding officers. 12 different 10 or units under them.

he said, we don't have staff anymore for that. you've got to make staff. he said, maybe we can pull somebody off from somewhere else. somebody's got to do it. he said, could you do it? i said, sure i could do it. he said, you've got your other job. i said, i've got it all lined up. so i became the chief prosecutor for the united states and what the united press called the biggest murder trial in history, 22 defendants convicted in murder of over a million people, mostly jews. i was 27. let me add another interesting point. there were 22 defendants. there were 3000 german officers who were engaged for a least a period of two years doing nothing else but killing jews and others perceive to be enemies of the reich. we tried 22. we only had 22 seats in the

dock. if we had 21, we would have tried 21. we knew it was only a small sampling of those responsible for mass murder on a daily basis, but that's all we could do under the circumstances. our option was to do nothing, but to do that much. and we did, and we establish the record. all theot punish guilty. those 22 were convicted, 13 of them sentenced to death. actually executed and some of them are practicing law in germany today. evidencee documentary chronicling specifically which killed how many people, what types of people, in which towns. i had very little staff. i was the chief prosecutor, i

had three assistance. -- assistants. 22 defendants were entitled to defense lawyers of their choosing. i decided i was going to prosecute the case without calling a single witness. wasreason i did that because the documentary evidence spoke for itself. it was absolutely reliable. it was their reports from the front. at that time i could have had available 1000 witnesses, any one of them would have come in and swore under oath that that particular defendant murdered his mother, his father, his children, and he witnessed it. i would have no trouble , not that they would all be lying, but that's the way they felt. camps.n and out of the

i decided i wasn't going to do because they would not be telling the truth. their own emotions would be such that their memory would be distorted and the testimony would be vulnerable. i decided to go to trial on the documents alone. never had happened. gave the defendants all of my records, these whole reports, 30 days before trial and i said, prepare your defense. when i opened the trial, immediately they challenge the validity of the documents. they are fake, they're forgeries, the russians fabricated them. the usual kind of business. i had been very meticulous with those files. they had immediately been taken into custody of an american colonel. he was put on the stand to testify that he had been responsible, put in the sack, and he had guarded them and knew where they were found and how they were found, identification,

so-and-so. very clear they were not going to get away with that excuse. after three days, i rested my case. these are the defendants, that's his report, dated such and such which says we killed 90,000 jews as of this time, there's the defendant, that's the charge. i don't need any more evidence. that's it. i went down the list. in three days i rested the case. no trial at nuremberg anywhere had been done with such speed and economy of means. than the fun began. you never saw such a pack of lies as these guys burnout. if the report said on july 12, killed 3412der 10a people, jews, the commander

said, that was my commander but on that day, i happen to be at my grandmother's funeral in berlin. here is a report from the funeral parlor, with 46 witnesses, who saw me there, including the general, and when i got back, what did i discover? no one would tell me what had happened. and here i am for the first time being told that jews were being killed when i was in there. i was appalled. andg they came with excuses. uys who for years -- guys who for years every day had been killing jews had the gall to say it was the first time i have heard about this. they found some alibi backed up by hundreds of affidavits, witnesses of all kinds. the defense lasted 6 or 9 months. months they came in with all

this baloney. the judge, much to my he passed what he called the penguin rule up to and including the sex life of a penguin, it's admissible. i was furious. these guys were lying. i wasn't going to take that. i called in our investigative division and i said, these are the defendants, this is their home addresses, what we know about them, i want you to go to their homes, begin on the roof, the chimney. terror the house apart. take up the floor or basement and bring the all the evidence you have. every letter. everything that's been written. we start screening all the information. where was he at different times? sure enough, i find letters p

was supposed to be at his grandmother's funeral. she died 50 years before. he wrote home to his wife saying, did we have a day today, i was swimming in jewish blood. all the rest of it, all the rebuttal. then i went on with the rebuttal. you were at your grandmother's funeral? what was her name? when did she die? is at the same one who died 12 years before? you have two grandmothers by that name? did you write this letter to your wife? rebuttal. with the the rebuttal lasted six months, until we tour this apart. when we got all through, they were all convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, and the judge, a devout catholic, superior court a pennsylvania judge, went off into a monastery for a week

to commune with his conscious faith and hend his came back and began reading the sentences, for the crimes of which you are convicted, this tribunal sentences you to death by hanging. you have seen the pictures of it, the panel doors open, prisoner step back, the doors close, and he struck down into theseison on one of elevator strata the next one would come up. for the crimes for which you are convicted, this tribunal sentences you to death by hanging. in after the other, 13 times a row they chopped them down and sentence him to death. day.t dramatic you interrogated these men. what was it like? benjamin: i tried to avoid

interrogating them before trial because i had interrogators for that. anyd not want to have personal feelings interfere with my judgment. i wanted them to be tried for what they did. they could justify themselves on trial, and they did. explained this was necessary for the good of germany. defendants, father of five children -- i went down to talk to him in the death house. well, maybe he wants me to take a message to his wife or children or something like that. i would have been glad to do that. jewsstified killing 90,000 on the grounds that it was for the good of germany.

he explained when he was asked why did you kill the children, he said, i was interested in the permanent security of germany and if the children grew up and they knew i killed their parents, they would be enemies of germany. dolways insisted that my men it in a humane way. if i saw they were enjoying the work, i took them off the job. i instructed them, if a woman -- an infant child, t play let her keep the infant. into the child and kill the woman at the same time. i went into the death house. i could talk to him through a small opening. i asked him if there was

anything he wanted to say to me, or anything he wanted me to do for him. america the jews in will suffer for what you have done to me. there was not the slightest sign of her morse. on the contrary, i'm sure he went to his death believing that what he did was right. burial,ctures of his where his gravesite was surrounded by a large group of nazis giving the hitler salute, the final greeting to their fallen comrade. themselves, were educated? ledamin: these crimes were by very well educated,

distinguished, german, cultured citizens. they were kind to their cats and dogs, they all loved water -- wagner, and they killed human beings like they would be flies. >> how did you make sense of that? benjamin: if you begin with a certain premise it follows logically. if you begin that let us say lice are unhealthy, you exterminate the lice. if you begin the premise that areain types of people parasites, which represent a threat to a healthy body, then you exterminate them. and you exterminate them completely if you can. follows logically. the danger is the premise on which you begin, when you stop and fail to realize that all

human beings should be entitled to a minimum standard of human dignity and you begin to consider yourself a superior race and the others are there to serve you, that's what follows logically. most of my life i'm spending now trying to change that way of thinking in order to recognize that all human beings should be treated as human beings. >> so education of a wide sort never made somebody rational except in that logical way? a processeducation is which has many forms, many ways. some people you can never educate. there was nothing i could have done to change his way of thinking. others were even worse because they denied it and they knew it was true. >> people either denied it and the few admitted it and nobody was contrite? benjamin: nobody was remorse. my biggest pain in this whole experience was the absence of remorse. a were sorry for themselves.

what could youd, expect, the jews brought it on the sorts, this was of sentiment, almost universal. it would be unfair to those few people who felt otherwise and tried to do whatever they could to help, so i don't want to paint a whole nation, a whole people with one brush. but it was so widespread. , he hadhe defendants the decency to try to commit , and heunsuccessfully did not ask for clemency at the end. only one who showed any sense of countries and, for which i admired him at least to that extent. but the others, i hear it for the first time, i don't believe it, just happen, you are persecuting me, what else could i do, superior orders, it was necessary, and all of that.

to educate people, but if you don't try, then we are all in danger everywhere. let's go back to the fairness issue for a moment. who paid for the defense attorneys? benjamin: the defense attorneys were paid for by the united states out of occupation funds, i must admit, but it was all expenses were paid. guesthouse, the place where the defense counsel had their offices and witnesses were kept were excellent accommodations under the circumstances at the time, they were fed, they got cartons of cigarettes, which was in great demand at the time. the defendants were given every possible right of trial and the presumption of complete innocence, and they had to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. so they were absolutely fair

trials. if i ever commit any crimes i hope i get the same type of fairness. >> the trials were conducted under the same rules as the nuremberg trials? benjamin: the charter of the international military tribunal defined the crimes but left it to the court themselves to lay down their rules. but since the judges were all theinguished, they knew rules of evidence. they knew what was a fair trial and they had to merge different systems, the french system, for example, was different from the american and the british. it was necessary for them to come up with rules of fairness, which they did very well. at nurnberg we had the benefit of their rulings. in addition, we developed our own rules as we went along, all of which were published in a big volume by the united states government. .his information is available

the fact that the rules did not exist in advanced did not mean -- i felt they were unfair to the prosecution. after all, the defendant is the guy on trial. i did not really mind it too much. >> can you comment on what became emphasized in what became deemphasized in these trials, and why? -- isin: is not so matter not so much a matter of emphasizing one against the other. the first category that you mention, crimes against peace, or otherwise known as aggression , that has been perceived as a time ase -- for a long

the greatest of all crimes because it encompasses all the other crimes. when you commit a crime against peace, the war that follows invariably involves killing large numbers of people and the rape and devastation in every crime you can imagine takes place in a war. committing a war of aggression is the most serious crime that any head of state can commit. this was known after the first world war. efforts were made at that time to bring the kaiser to trial for aggression against little belgium, for example. this was debated by international lawyers. the kaiser himself had fled to the town of holland. the dutch refused to extradite him because there was no to try the head of

state. the international lawyers who were dealing with him said, all right, in order not to have retroactive justice, they will not try him for the crime of aggression because it had never been declared to be an international crime. they would charge him in the treaty of versailles of crimes against the dictates of the human conscience which had been referred to in the hague , but that of 1899 wasn't good enough because the head of state had never been tried. a never was put on trial. when we got to nuremberg, justice jackson, who was a look,class jurist, said the time has come for the law to take a step forward. the principle of non-retroactivity is a principle

of equity. you don't charge a person with a crime that he did not know was a crime. invading a neighboring state, a friendly, neighboring state is a crime, didn't everybody in the world know that? to declare that a crime does not violate any equitable principle, particularly in light of all the precedents we have. we have the hague agreements in the kellogg-three help. jackson was aware of that. he said, the time has come, and there's nothing unfair about trying these guys for the crime against peace of committing aggressive war, even though aggression was not defined. jackson said that in his opening statement. i know in elephant when i see

one. see one.phant when i he was taking a step forward to keep up with the common sense of mankind. it was based upon the long tradition which had already been established that the medieval notion of warfare does not apply in modern times. that was the first and most important principle out of the nuremberg charter. incidentally, these principles were affirmed and they were affirmed by the tribunal, which inmined the thing, and connection with crimes against humanity they interpreted in a very restricted way. the second one was the crimes against humanity. that connotation had never existed before. and the theory behind it was that when crime has reached a certain magnitude that they shocked the conscience of humankind, they are crimes not

really against the state, when so many murder someone in new york, it is the state of new york against so-and-so defendant, but it's a crime against all of humanity. all of humanity has the right to be the plaintiff. that also was a step forward. but it was not an unfair step forward great it was a necessary step forward, if you are going to have a civilized international society, and the medieval notions which were perfectly ok that perhaps when a king lived behind the castle walls to not apply. crimes against humanity was another step forward. the third category, war crimes, that was a cinch. the hague had defined things of that kind.

there was a restriction put on by the international military tribunal, a tribunal itself in reviewing its jurisdiction said we have the right as lawyers of international lawyers of great to examine the charter and see whether the charter is an exercise in creating new law or whether it is a legal instrument which we are bound by. it enunciates principles of law which should be binding and are binding. they said, because of the wording of the statute -- and it in an accident, really -- order for there to be a crime against humanity, it must also be linked with one of the other crimes, crimes against peace. the killing of large numbers of people without a war would not be a crime against humanity. that's what they held. some of us who have been

involved were shocked at that interpretation. we said, that's wrong. you made to tell me if killer hills all these -- kills all these jews and he's not at war with somebody else -- we change that very specifically by a controlled counsel, the government agency for all of germany. ers,isting of the four pow and this control council enacted controlled counsel law number 10, which corrected that and said very specifically, crimes against humanity are not linked to any other crimes. that meant that if you killed your own nationals and the crimes were of such magnitude as to shock the conscience, that it becomes a crime against humanity which is a different international criminal offense. that was then confirmed.

today, despite the confusion any, the factmong m is it is a legal right of nations to intervene to stop crimes against humanity, and i think it is a legal duty on their part to intervene to stop crimes against humanity. that has tremendous consequence for the development of a peaceful and law-abiding international society. quick lecture, sorry. >> can you talk about the review of all of these cases and what happened to the sentences? let me clarify what has been a frequent misunderstanding. i'm not talking about the army trials, where the trials were declared to be over b ty the

pentagon. those who were still in prison, i don't know if they serve the sentence. some of them were hanged after that. the trials themselves ended. the subsequent proceedings under the direction of the general -- and there were 12 such trials -- had to be reviewed, first by general clay, who reviewed them and confirm the sentences as being fair and correct, but the death sentences had to have a tpecial order written ou directing that the men be executed. were about 15 or 16 death sentences pending, of which 13 came out of my trial. when john mccloy came in as high to replace general

clay, general clay apologize to him for not having that in rid of this nasty business. an appeal pending before the u.s. supreme court and he could not act until that was settled. the appeal was rejected by the supreme court of the united states. mccloy had been the assistant secretary of war during world war ii. he was a bright as thing wished, establishment lawyer from new from originally philadelphia, and he knew nothing really about the specifics of the trials or those particular accused. he was familiar with the overall trials and had ordered them in the department of the army when he was assistant secretary of war. so he had his legal department study all of these records. and he did something else, he appointed a three-member panel, to review the,

cases and make recommendations as to what should be done. the members of the board, the principal officer was judge peck of new york, who i think was jewish. there was one man from the state department and there was one who was a professional and i'll adjust. professional. their specific instructions, which is not generally known, d, youi dug out later, sai are not to review the correctness of the decisions in any case that has already been determined and is binding. the only thing you are to examine are the personal circumstances of each defendant family his health, his

condition, or differences in the severity of sentences for the same crime. he wouldt off easier, recognize that as being inequitable. it was not a part in committee. ardon committee. they had no jurisdiction to challenge the validity of any of the decisions of the tribunals. not generally known. the panel set down in munich and begin to go over these files. peck and the others and i said, i know this was a difficult job, i was executive counsel. said, i'm thoroughly familiar with all of the trials,

and should you require any information or assistance, i met your service. in a letterack which i recently uncovered saying thank you very much, but no thanks, we are only going to hear from the attorneys for the defendants. we don't want to hear from any attorneys for the prosecution. andrised me at the time annoyed me at the time, i must say. met, they peck panel had a few meetings. the summer that way, and then they made their recommendations to mr. mccloy. report,ued a clemency which i will give to the holocaust museum, which i'm sure you will find in the archives, in which they confirmed three or

four of the death sentences, commuted the rest, usually to life imprisonment, lowered the sentences on some defendant's. the only defendant against whom there had been a judgment of forfeiture of all of his assets was the multibillionaire. they gave him back all of his that., and that was that evoke a tremendous outcry from the nazi victims benjamin: as a result, mr. mccoy has not been in the good graces of either the nazi victims or the church organizations. i feel -- and i have given the documentation to the holocaust memorial museum or i will -- that he got a bad rap. he was unfairly judged.

he was criticized, including in a book by william manchester -- which attacked him in a very harsh way, i think. for having released the german from prison and having given him is very sizable fortune. he was condemned as having that -- done this as an act of political expediency in order to will the germans back into the allied camp to help fight against the russians. i am absolutely convinced that was not his motive. and the reason i am convinced of that is simple -- i'm a man who looks at the documents. before i talk to him about it, i looked at the documents and i found his instructions to the board and i found papers about the clemency board's recommendations that were secret. and the instructions they indicated that they were not to

challenge these verdicts. we are not reviewing the validity of the sentences or reject them. we are only taking into account humanitarian considerations that may be applicable. then, when the clemency board recommended a reduction of sentences for various people, he checked all of those recommendations and in many cases he was more harsh than the clemency board had been. -- ve my friend here, if this man is trying to do something as an act of political expediency all that he have to do is to accept the clemency board's recommendations. they are independent people. or he can accept the german arguments that death penalties have been outlawed in germany under the constitution. or accept the pleas of the various german peace groups and

the religious groups and the anti-nazi groups who were besieging him. instead of that, he ordered four of them to be hanged. he did not have to do that. and he increased the sentences on several others. a man who was determined to win the favor of germany, either he is a full to do that or he has other motives. i am convinced that his motivation was humanitarian and sincere and i know from having seen him very frequently during that time that he was torn by emotion and having to go over this he had never caused anybody to be hanged before. it was not an easy thing for him. so, the harsh criticism that he was merely willing the germans at the expense of the jews is a mistake. the statements that he made to the germans. the pressure he put on the germans. they paid more than they wanted to pay. host: why do you think he has

received such a bad rap? benjamin: it is easy to criticize. it fits into a preset pattern. the americans are wooing the germans to get them to fight the russians. that is the manchester pattern. it should be examined in that light. many people share that view. it is a political thing, not based on fact. he has also been criticized for not bombing the real lines -- wits. i discussed it with him at some length. long after the event. i do nine treat on him. recognize to be a personal decision that he alone had to make about the life and death and other people. i felt that was something which should not be a result of political pressure. when i discussed with him the bombing of the lines, i said you realize that the jewish community is in an uproar because of your failure to do that.

what was going through your mind? he said is very simple. first of all, the british are anti-somatic -- anti-semetic and they didn't want to. we had used british bombers for that kind of an operation. long discussion with the president's jewish advisor. about this whole issue. they were also strategic reasons. you had to bomb them from a height that was also inevitable that you would hit -- if you start bombing the barracks of inmates, what is going to be the response, politically, on the u.s. bonds jewish inmates and auschwitz? there was another strategic consideration. bombing the lines was a waste of time because they could be repaired immediately.

if you bomb a few miles of row lines, so what? they come with the train and they put a few down. they won't change anything. they'll start killing them faster. in my judgment, and not only my judgment, we took this up to the highest level, that was not the thing to do. it was not in the interest of them. let them do it. would you like to talk to them? he said no. i had a long discussion later with him about the clemency action and the releasing of the german. i said he had made a mistake. he sent me a note and said if i -- ithen what i know now probably would have done it differently. i said, can i publish that? he said not us long as i am alive. i will now give that information to the holocaust memorial museum. and you now have it on tape. >> next weekend, we will airport

to have this interview. in the second part, he talks about the war crimes trials and how prosecutors collected evidence against nazi leaders. he also discusses how the u.s. dealt with restitution toward jewish families to survive the holocaust. on "they night communicators" creating something -- the recording association of american ceo joins us. by the technology reporter for politico. >> most people do not realize that they are being paid this much for youtube and as such were some -- spotify, but you hear artists withdrawing their music from spotify and insisting that is on youtube. people do not understand where their money is coming from. more educated artists