like he said all the things i would say. theh is basically i think russian is the most important element. if we walk around illuminating all the things we don't like about the past you'll find out you can't learn from it. there will be no i think it is essentially put some of these things in the forefront so we can talk about it today and relate their relevance to our present. motto is we need more history, not less. them i will try to make it quick. unless we can go over. >> i think it is a good idea to

keep it quick. i don't have much time to yield. >> that gentleman got to something i wanted to ask. i was watching and and it reminded me of this film called triumph of the will. they have some of the same principles applied. aboutk they are talked differently, there was a clear cap. if they ever died, the re-ignition of it. howery -- how are we able to the birth of the nation in the same vein as the triumph of the will.

-- all of them reframe it as an epic struggle. anyone can say -- then you have stalin, which is not so great. if you are living in germany and hitler, don't forget, was democratically elected. crazyated this dictatorship. intriguing enough to become a photographer. her photography of nubian warriors really interesting. she liked warrior dudes, i guess. a lot of everything.

at the end of the day when we look at history, he's a brilliant filmmaker. an incredible sense of cinematography. griffith again is an incredible filmmaker. for me at least, it should be copyright open source. it is already being revised. a difference frame of reference points are generated. we can't say this is all of a sudden going to be a pc thing. nobody should talk about racism.

i'm trying to push this as my own participation as an open discussion. for want to thank everybody joining us for this open discussion. >> we have been live from the national busy him of american history, with the history guys, as they taped their weekly public radio show. this is american history tv on c-span3, where every weekend you can find panel discussions, archival films, tours of historic sites, and lectures by college professors in their classrooms. and to watch any of the programs

we feature on american history tv, visit c-span.org/history. >> in november 1945, war crimes trials began in the room berg germany.- in nuremberg -- for the 70th anniversary of the trials, c-span's american history tv is airing an oral history interview with the former united states chief prosecutor. transylvania into a jewish family and immigrated into america when he was an infant. he enlisted in the u.s. army after earning his lot agree and as later assigned to set up war crimes branch to investigate nazi atrocities.

he discusses the war crimes trials and how prosecutors collected evidence. he also discusses how the u.s. felt with restitution toward jewish families who survived the holocaust. this is the second of a three-part interview and was conducted by the united states holocaust memorial is he him in washington dc. it is about an hour and a half. >> i want to go back to the beginning. were there any rules? >> there were no rules whatsoever. sending us out did not have the foggiest idea what we were supposed to do. we knew we were supposed to do something with war crimes trials. as an attorney i of course knew the rules of evidence. of course i know what

constitutes admissible evidence in a court of law and we were the evidence.ect >> how did you make of these things? >> we had to improvise. we didn't have a regular courtroom where you could call eyewitness. of course cross-examining or securing his rights. taking testimony from friendly witnesses, and affidavit. we would interrogate him privately in order to see if we can ascertain the truth. usually broaden an officer to or to take a .eparate deposition

that was the evidence we used. >> in terms of technique and writing reports -- stable was a more fellow. he was more cautious in his approaches. he was more exuberant in his descriptions. he would say these statistic -- the sadistic beasts are murdering people in cold blood and it is an outrageous violation of every act of human decency. you referred to the accused, you refer to them as the suspected and rank.als by name you don't describe anything in graphic terms.

the facts speak for themselves. we have a different approach. also some in our interrogation methods. >> were you reading each other's reports everyday? reportetting get back to every day. we have been back on the field from it and he would compare and i would discuss it together. we were bunk mates. we have to prepare more carefully. enough it was not somber in the sense that we never laughed.

we didn't take this lightly, neither of us. somehow it was just getting the job done. there were light moments as well. >> how would you prioritize the work? >> three or four would come in and these are ally flyer cases or atrocities of killing of hostages in different towns. a mass grave had been uncovered. i would go out and take the other one. we would compare notes more or less and that was about it. theou said you thought military trend -- >> they were in the nature of

military commissions, based upon the army standards of court-martial. they weren't trying to create new principles of international law by crimes against humanity. they understood war crimes because they were prohibited in the -- it was a manual of military conduct. if they knew war crime was a necessity, it was rape, pillage, plunder. these were codified as the rules of warfare. these were the things which came later. they were generated by the fact that people like justice jackson, as well as some of the other distinguished judges and lawyers who were represented on were people familiar with the broader principles and concepts of international law and justice.

the army was another shiite trial. the judges have to be army officers who are available to hear the case. them could you describe the incident that have been -- incidences.e many i'm supposing you are referring to a dramatic one i mentioned in other contexts. coming into camp was always chaotic. bodies were strewn all over the place, troops were chasing the germans, inmates have captured the germans and were busy beating them were killing them. people were dying all around. what i would do as a matter of procedure, i would immediately try to read that tried to -- the meeting we try to seize the

try to -- immediately seize the records. i would seize whatever would be relevant for a war crime prosecution. there was an inmate and a favorite position in the hospital for the kitchen. he would say,-waiting for you. him tol going out with the electrified fence and his digging up a box of records which he had kept. -- those records were records of all the ss men, identification cards, who had entered that camp at who had left the camp and had their photograph on it. it had their identifying numbers

and addresses, date of birth, things of that kind. and he was supposed to destroy that, whicht do meant every time he saved one of those records, there were hundreds of them, he put his life in jeopardy. he was ready to do that, knowing what they there would be a day of rep -- a day of recognition. of --it was a reflection a day of retribution. it was very moving and dramatic for me. there was some other incident a few weeks ago. introduced that analyze, i admire his courage. but i never knew who he was. i said he was a man whom i didn't know. and then a few weeks ago i received a letter from a professor at the american university of paris who had

written a book. in that book he had described -- i think the book was called in the service of stalin. he had described how communists had gone to spain and had fought on the side of liberating forces. france, butd into the germans seized them and sent them to the concentration camp .o be killed or worked to death one of those persons was in the , according tolin the book it was the man who handed me those records. it identified him by name and by another man in the camp who had sent regards in france, who had also been collecting and hiding

the death books, registering the exceptional deaths. those files were also turned over as half of the commanding general, and that is the way i assign most of the -- most of my receipt. couldd him to see if i get a copy of that record, which the man had kept with him all these years. years later we had the coincidence coming out of the blue. the identification of the man who saved his represent one of his close buddies. >> let's go to after the war. presumably are going to come back home. >> as the nuremberg trials wound in two was engaged

activities. the hope and expectation would continue to war crime trials. we had a very small sampling. we only tried 22 of them. what about the rest? we had a records. we knew where they had been. all the other 12 subsequent wireless -- subsequent trials had similar fallouts. we set up a special projects division. gertrude was engaged in that activity as well. with various german prosecuting agencies to see if they would take those files and act on them. we were trying to publish the records of the nuremberg trials but subsequently came out of the green.

we also had a complete german text, which was never published. the army decided it would be too expensive. i was doing this wrapping up thing and going forward to resuming a normal life and starting a law practice in new york. one day i had a visit from a man who was general counsel to the joint distribution community. this was the only leading one at assistanceroviding throughout the world. all in germany. their headquarters was all in paris. and their director was a man by the name of dr. joseph swarts --

dr. joseph schwartz. problem and we a would like to help you help us with that problem. the jewish government had persuaded the u.s. government to enact a law providing the restitution of property, which had been stolen or confiscated from the jews. all covered not only jews. law wasision of that the property, the unclaimed property which had been taken which were no look at those there to file a claim should also be restored. the property passes to the state. but there is a principle of law that says you may not be the

beneficiary of any unlawful act. theirnnot inherit property. if you murder the jews, the state that is responsible can hardly be the recipient of the property. don't forget germany surrendered unconditionally. and the only government there was the military government. the united states was responsible for the military government law in the u.s. zone of germany. and number 59 said that a successor organization shall be appointed to cover the jewish property. the jewish restitution successor organization. organization, which exceeded in getting that into law, didn't know where to begin. they said we would like you to

be the guy who sets this up. i was in with the u.s. army. this was all military occupation at the time. we don't think anything will come of it. but we have a moral obligation to try. and of course we don't have any money to put into this. have enough to pay your salary for the next six months. would you undertake this for us? i said i would have to talk to my wife. we have been in germany for two years. my good wife gertrude said look, you know this business better than anybody else. they thought it might take two years.

she said knowing you it would only take one year. a jewish restitution successor organization, knowing nothing would impress the germans more than being a director at the general. that is how it began. i was hired for that job in august 1948. and we had an immediate major crisis. law required all claims be submitted by the end of that year, and of december 48. months in which , trained staff locates the property, submits the claims , this was a long

step in a judicial process. the first thing they did was recognize that it was impossible. i resigned from no member -- from nuremberg and i went to see the general. i had known general clay from before. i had been head of a branch in berlin. have this problem, i need an extension of the law. i said i can't locate all of the confiscated jewish properties. time with nohs staff, no money, no nothing? we discussed the problem and he said i don't want to extend the law. the sooner we get this problem over with the better it will be.

i don't want to extend the restitution all. i said i will make a deal with you. i will only come back to you if possible. but i will try. in order to get it to him i need money. i need staff. i said you can't ask the jewish organization, that you know spend every money to raise, to save lives and move them out of here. i said i think we can take the money out of occupation. the united states army is running on occupation funds. can't get you know i

occupation funds because it requires approval. the russians have to agree. i don't think the french will agree and i don't think the british will agree. i said i have another proposition, let me borrow the money from the american segment of the occupation funds and when i get restitution i will repay the money. thatd i have a memorandum says you can. whatever money you need to get going, but i need to get this over with. i need enough funds to get this thing growing. how much do you need he echo said one million marks. one million marks was a lot of money.

already ready to sign. german investigators, using my old army authorization for the and into every real estate in germany with instructions to copy down the names of any property in 1933. they have stamped aj on the property, meaning jew, so you could identify. they claim the property of the big not see leader. then we set up in nuremberg.

they were mostly drivers. i know the latvians, they were busy killing jews before captured by the americans and used by the americans. my furniture across the street to this club. a big hall. with aa dance hall typewriter on every table. as they came in from the field they brought the claims in, we had a secretary sitting there typing. i took an eight hour shift. another man by the name of dr. george weiss and laid ahead of the austrian operation, he headed the shirt -- headed the

third. we unloaded all the claims into a u.s. army ambulance and the was a claim center where we had to file these claims. we filed 173,000 claims for 173,000 pieces of property. said we don'td need an extension, we filed everything. l is only beginning of the process. -- that was only the beginning of the process. was forced to sell his property under duress was authorized to file a claim, setting down all the facts.

that then went to a restitution agency, a special judicial type of agency. hear thed counterclaims, because the person who bought it would say wait a minute, i paid fair value for it. was the neighbor next door, i wanted to help him escape so i gave him 100,000 marks, the property wasn't worth 80,000. he sent me three letters when i was in broken when -- when i was in brooklyn. who are you to come claim this property? he said look, i bought the roof.ty, i put on a new the roof cost him more than the property was worth. there was a mortgage on the property. process began, there were two or three claims.

it passed through several hands, it was a complicated legal process. if any party was not satisfied with the decision of the restitution agency, they could restitution court. they could file an appeal of the judicial system in germany. was a final court of restitution appeals, composed of allied judges. they sat on the court of restitution appeals and they legal arguments and factual arguments and all of these cases before rendering the final binding decision. their decisions were all published. this long legal process began. we needed the people who managed it, the people who could repair it, hundreds of businesses of all kinds which had to be

managed and run. it never happened before in history. nazi partyll the files. we hired nobody without a security check, which meant a limited selection. files, tonazi party which i had free access. it was a very interesting legal to try to create precedents by giving a few legal questions, which came up very early on. how history might have been quite different. the first key issue is at what rate of exchange would you have to repay? if a person enters into a thatact under duress, when

arrest is removed, he has the option of undoing the contract. he has to get what he got. that is not something invented by military government. what happened was that when the property was transferred, let's assume the jewish owner received 100,000 mark for it. existed.no longer was convertedark at a ratio of 10 to one. he received a 100,000 mark and was given back 10,000 deutsche mark's. the german said wait a minute, i give you 100,000 marks.

if the jewish owner had been required to give back 100,000 marks, was the property not worth it. pay back 100,000 deutsche marks, which was an awful lot of money. i had a lot of problems with this. i take this case to the court of restitution appeals. who bears the burden of the law? the jewish victim? didn't have to be jewish. the victim of knotty persecution? see.t have to be a not to my mind the risk of the currency devaluation should not risk -- should not rest. he would have had it the valued.

there would have been no restitution program in germany. give you another case. the german jews had mostly fled. they were organized in what was good minded congregations. entities ingal germany. the jewish congregation had all been resolved. they consisted of old age homes, large buildings. the previous owners were scattered all over the world. they were in shanghai, where they could find refuge.

some small groups had reconstituted themselves. they came into munich. very few members have been part of the conversation before. from other places and they reestablished themselves and said we are now the congregation. been forced having to survive using all kinds of means or less than the most honorable pupil somewhere bunch confirmed by being arrested from time to time on various charges. we set up a new congregation, we are claiming restitution of the property. and i said hold on. not claiming restitution of the property because i am the successor organization designated by military government law. --y said no, this is our con

the cemetery is whatever it was in some of them are valuable properties. long story short i argued that case and i remembered quite dramatically, because i addressed the three american judges. please the court, i stood on this spot, literally the same spot, and argued thenst the not sees, prosecution of the nazis who had murdered the jews. i never thought i would stand here and argue against the jewish community. but i have to. those who are entitled cannot speak for themselves. those who are entitled were scattered everywhere. itself proclaimed group was not subject any kind of controls.

it was known as the -- case. if that case had gone the other way, all the jewish properties in germany, which had brought -- which had belonged to congregations would have disappeared. we had several cases like that, which were decisive on how this program was to be carried out. we had good luck. more than good luck we were on the right side. thebeing able to carry up program for the recovery of thousands of pieces of unclaimed jewish property -- i don't want to run too long, but i think it may be of

historic significance. in the end we surrendered and did it and an interesting way. because of these problems of currency conversion and because the germans resented having -- they hadir homes invested all kinds of things and there were no substitute. housing was in great demand. againsts resentment whichtrange organization, comes along and insists on taking the property back and only paying a small fraction to what had been given to the property. had been taken from them -- discriminatory taxes. it got to be a very bitter business, and it was generating anti-semitism in germany, which

didn't need any and tyson's -- anti-semitism generated in the immediate postwar years. the jews were being moved out of germany from the camps to israel. which itself was destitute. there was no place to put them. prefabricated. no water, but in open fields. that calledituation for immediate action, i had to generate money at once by every possible means. so i had to devise new techniques. let me give you a specific example of the type of problem. where a womanse

had acquired the home of a jewish neighbor. i don't remember if it was 1937 or 1938. probably earlier than that. no claim had been filed except for the jewish success organization. we asserted the claim, she made the usual arguments. was hoping my jewish neighbor, what do you want, who are you? we said nevermind. we are going to give you back 1/10 of what you paid. it so happened she was the aunt of an american army general who not only was an american army general, he happened to be the commanding general of the district in germany that was where he lived. he call me up and said what do you think you are doing? my aunt is no not see. they didn't file a claim because they were grateful to her.

do you, filing a claim and dementia gets out of her house? and you are offering her 1/10 of what you paid for it. i said, sir, i'm here to carry out the law. is what is provided in the law and i think the law is correct. i negotiated with your aunt and i negotiated with others. we try to be fair in our and adhere to the last drop of blood and pound of flesh. i will simply carry out the law, which is a military government law. that's what i intend to do. please advise accordingly. john mccloy is in the high commission of germany. mr. mccloy got on the phone with

me. he is raising holy hell. he says you are doing much worse than the nazis. all she did was help her jewish friend. he is very distressed. mccloy, as a good lawyer you know well that the transaction in 1938 was a duress transaction and avoidable at the option of the person whose property was taken. mustrcise that option as i to require the transaction be rescinded. i'm sure it is with yours. he said i will call up the general and tell him.

that is what happened. eventually we settled. we had this problem thousands of times again and again. wenot only took time, but are not getting the money we needed for these urgent tasks of saving lives. i decided to take another approach. and that was to try to sell these claims to the german government. global settlements. i went to the finance ministry and different german states. i said look, we have this problem, we are generating a lot of anti-semitism. we have to solve this problem.

solve it isggest we reassigned the claims to you, so we are not an official ares by beneficiary- not a by way of -- you need to make that sacrifice to maintain peace in your life. the first suggest and we made was frankfurt was nearby. there are some funny stories -- that was the first settlement, 25 million marks. the state agreed to take assignment for all of the claims -- in exchange for 25 million marks down. berlin.did that with

a very difficult problem. the manager urges a man whose name you will find in your archives. a very moral and righteous human being come a very strong sense of justice, and was very helpful foronnecting the appeal slave laborers. i had great respect for him. you will carry out the law as it was intended to be. he said i will not be able to carry it out that way for political reasons. it is important justice be done. you do it. i said, half pity.

i can't do it. anti-semitism it was causing. he said, you do it. i never settled. we settled everyplace else. this is an illustration of a andicult political problem an economic problem as well. and then the states went on for many years. by and large it was a fair and sensible arrangement as i look at it now in retrospect. to getway -- was a way the gun out on a legal path. it was found to be insurmountable. it had many such problems.

let me tell you another problem, which was a very fascinating problem in a way. the problem is what do you do about jewish cemeteries? i know nothing about the orthodox jewish rituals. strict guidance who are responsible -- a strict guidance over who are responsible. had their own cemeteries, every congregation had a local cemetery. sometimes it was a significant plot of land. so i set up a council headed by

the chief rabbi of israel at the time. rabbiwas another german who represented the jewish communities in germany. these three were to give me the guidelines of what could be done with a jewish cemetery. provideuctions were we strictly -- is we abide strictly to these rules. once a jewish cemetery always a jewish cemetery. you can't do anything with a land in which somebody is buried. you must leave it lying there. all of the jewish cemetery had been desecrated. it can be sold, providing it is

not sold for a profane purpose. a hospital is not a profane purpose. gambling casino certainly is. we had to know what was being sold and for what purpose it was being sold. let me just take a minute or two for a very amusing story. we had a situation of a cemetery in the old town. and on catholic town. there was a jewish cemetery. a man wanted to use part of the cemetery, which was in the center of town by the time the years had passed.

it was a hundred years ago. he said he wanted to use it as a customhouse. right on the east german border. they said customhouse? that is ok. a germanic telegram. they are building a customhouse and digging up bones. the contract was clear. there was a certain area where -- they were going to have a little memorial park next to it. the cemetery had been desecrated completely, but we are going to have a park there with a plaque, and the customhouse was built in whereea on the blueprint

there were no graves. that created a major problem. injunction,ediate i'm on my way home. got back to nuremberg or frankfurt at the time, i said how far has it come? building. a one portion was over the grave site. i you can't do that. ,he jewish community came to me you can't tear that building down. life will be unbearable. i said let me consult with the

council. they went into a meeting at a conference and finally came up with a solution. you may not have anything on a cemetery except for a jewish prayer house. a big building. we may not know much about engineering. better look some more. and then some genius came up with a solution. build the prayer house under the building. so that the building rests on top. so that is an idea.

anybody who ever views this tape, i reckon they go check it out. houseorner of the customs there is a small room, which is , built inouse accordance with specification and laid down in israel with inscriptions on the wall, with stained-glass windows. there is room for a torah. that was built under the customs house. it is the world's most unknown, unused synagogue that ever existed. i went to check on that 10 years and i started with a customs house.

you turn to the right three blocks. i want to see the synagogue in this building. they said this building is the customhouse. i said there better be a synagogue in this building. upstairs call somebody and they said oh yes, they took me down to the basement and kick some boxes away. he opened the door and said this is what you are looking for? i said that is it. i said has anybody ever used this? he said no, never. keep on doing it. go to visit the customs house and check out for me, they are bound to do that forever. let me tell you another story about forever. how long is a cemetery to be maintained?

worked outthings we as they would be responsible for the maintenance of the jewish cemeteries. law a cemetery is only maintained for 20 years. every town has their own cemetery and every resident is entitled to be buried in that cemetery. germans are very orderly people. after 20 years they are required .o take away the tombstone saves money, saves ground, and some emotional sentiment. as we are reaching the end of , i said nowperiod you take care of the cemeteries. jewish law requires a cemetery to maintain forever.

forever costs money. .ou have to cut the grass it costs money. we are not going to pay that. why should we treat you better than we treat our own? it got to be a very emotional argument, a very dramatic argument. the germans were finally persuaded to accept the jewish ritual. they do maintain the cemeteries in perpetuity. this was also part of the restitution. i convinced them by slamming on table the bones i brought from me -- i brought with me from auschwitz.

>> tell me about the cultural restitution. >> since the jewish restitution's jewish success -- was authorized to claim all unclaimed jewish , it also recovered many thousands of jewish cultural objects, which had been assembled by the germans. taken from all the occupied territories. rosenberg was the nazi ideologue named in his honor. they were to go sees all jewish cultural objects. the nazis had various plans for them. these were eventually assembled in a big warehouse under the

custody of the united states army, and they turned it over to the jewish restitution success organization. our first goal was to try to locate the owners. plate,e was a kiddush which i do find out where the man was or if it came from a congregation that still existed. we did the same, incidentally, with individual properties of restitution. we are called the equity procedure of getting the property back to real owners. to our first goal, restore to the rightful owners. usually you couldn't tell.

tothe next goal was to try distribute them wherever they were needed for jewish reconstruction. a separate entity with set up by the jewish organization, called jewish cultural reconstruction. and the professor of columbia university was a member of our board of directors. and what of the persons who first came to germany to help guide us with what to do with these things. fellow and i did not know enough about cultural life and germany. we set up these cultural reconstructions. then we broaden experts from israel. a gentleman who came in from the withm in israel to help us

all of the crowns and all of the objects. we also had people restoring them. i learned that a scroll can be hasared, but if the scroll a certain word, it cannot be repaired, and it must be buried in israel, and all of these steps were followed very precisely, and i was very insistent on that. the law has been laid down by the rabbinical council, and it have to be strictly observed, and it was. the school of scribes set in paris and they repaired those scrolls that could be saved and the rabbinical council would

resign -- would advise where they were needed. their congregations in other parts of the world that did know where they would need it, and some of them were known as remembrance scrolls through different communities throughout the world. and we did the same with ceremonial objects. we returned them when it was and in the end, we silver,d tons of broken knives, forks, dishes, plates, all kinds of bits and scraps. the question is, what do we do with that? i was very careful, and i found a jewish silversmith in london and i said, all right, we will send it to them. they cannot be repaired, we cannot find the owner, nothing can be done with it, so we will smelt it down and give the

proceeds to jewish charity. veryught i was being a clever. i went to the board of directors in new york where we had our annual meetings and i went to the great details and i was feeling a very cocky and very proud of myself and i said that we had gotten 50,000 dollars or something like that from the silver scraps that we sent off to the silversmith and the goldsmith brothers in london, and they smelted them down, and they sent us a proceeds from london, and we give them to the charitable organizations, whereby the first person raised and he was less elderly then, he is still living, and he -- mr.r. benjamin: benjamin ferencz, you took these holy objects and you sent them to a crematorium? from that question that i

was cooked and i tried to explain it the best that i could that it was not really a crematorium, it was our way of trying to carry out our assignment and we realized that benefitingcould be those who survived, and i don't think he beat came -- i don't think he forgave me for that, that we became very good friends after the years passed. there was this problem in dealing with a new area that had never been done before. we had paintings in which we had disposed of and there were all kinds of things and it was part of the restitution program. >> [indiscernible] benjamin: he was there for a relatively short. of time, but knowing the jewish communities of germany really well, she was helpful to us in identifying various ceremonial objects, she knew what period

they were from, what might it mighteen from -- what it have been from, and let me tell you another story of collections. among the collections were, of course, many jewish books. old jewish books, you know, and they were of great value. collecteds had also such books, and i mean german universities, german churches, part of their religious studies, and the nazis had picked those of. there were institutions that have legitimately acquired those books and they were quite valuable. one day, a jewish rabbi, a , i think his name was bernstein, pulled up with an ambulance to the back of one of these archives and selected some of the most valuable jewish books and filled up the

ambulance and put them on a ship smuggling immigrants to israel, palestine as it was known. so these were books which had belonged to legitimate german institutions and they had been lawfully acquired, so it was a case of unlawful confiscation. one day i got a call from general mcclay, and he said, benny, you've got to come up, we've got a problem. i have his captain and i'm about to court-martial him for stealing german jewish property. and he said, we have a restitution program here and we are restoring property to those from whom it was unlawfully taken, so it doesn't mean you can go off and steel property from the germans and i am going to court-martial him and i said, don't do that, for god sakes.

there are mitigating circumstances coming he thought it was jewish property, he didn't know, i did know, and i said, i will get it back. and he gave israel me a long list rims about 10 or 12 pages of different books of which i know nothing. and i meetisrael with the government officials there, and i was in contact with the finance ministry mostly, and general mcclay says i have to make restitution of this property. where is it? and they said, it is in mount scope us, and i said will let's go up to mount scope us -- well, let'si said, and get mount scopis it.

and they said, we can't go up there, the arabs are up there, so we can't get there, and i said, so when can i get up there? the war isid, when over. so i called back to berlin, and i say, sorry, general, they are ready to make restitution, but the arabs are there. i can't go up there until things quiet down and then we will get restitution. that, and he left shortly thereafter, and to my knowledge, that has never been settled by way of restitution, although we did have such a problem that the hague had ,egotiations with the germans and a german society of the templars made some kind of a deal which may have incorporated some of these books, i really don't know. of the germanase organizations required to make restitution's, and whether they made it or not really don't know and i cannot say. >> [indiscernible]

benjamin: what do you mean? >> you said you were going to -- benjamin: we were going to stay in germany for one year but we stayed in 10 years, and after 10 years i have four children, and we decided to resign from his organizations and returned to new york, but i did remain as an advisor for very many years after that. >> what was life like for you and your family there? a colonial, was cloistered existence, and maybe you should ask my wife to hear what it was like from her point of view. recognize, the first german elected to my house -- german and let into my house, was a professor who had worked out -- walked out of the german may tell youbut i about that when i tell you about the hague negotiations. kindt was a very colonial

of existence, the americans only fraternize with americans, everything was very cheap, -- americans, with everything was very cheap, it was like living in india. executions, and before the execution, i said -- i've received several death threats, and after those death threats, i would take my name off of the door. but it was comfortable in the sense that we could travel. it was a nice country, it had young,untains, we were but it was not a happy place to be. you always felt beleaguered, sort of, you were surrounded by persons who regarded you as a firm in the years before and suddenly, they had never heard of such a thing -- you as a kind

beforein in the years and suddenly, they had never heard of such a thing, so nevertheless, they were not unhappy years, but we were determined to leave before the job is really done. -- was really done. >> [indiscernible] nobody could live in germany without seeing black-market activity, everything was run on the black market, i mean, there were rations and you could choose between bread or beer, but there was an official black-market in berlin, for example, where in order to attempt to curb the wildlife market, they could bring their stuff to the central black market, it wasn't ca the that, it was called

exchange, or something. cigarettes were currencies. people literally worked with you for cigarettes. it was very grim at that point. >> was black-market helpful? it is hard to answer that question. i did have a discussion with dr. schwartz in paris about that. it is interesting you should raise it. the jews would receive an equivalent of care parcels thatving various things they needed, sugar, coffee, clothing, material to make things. it was sending in mostly cigarettes, because that was the most negotiable item, and i discussed that with joe shorts schwarz, from a moral

point of view. i said, and don't you think it would be better to set up soup kitchens? he said, no. he said, i think, first of all we get much more bang for our buck this way. this is the currency of trade and it is cheap and you can buy . lot with it it is an he said, outlet for their emotions, and this will take them out of this atmosphere. my concern was that their moral standards would be destroyed by engaging in illegal activities and that there was no respect for the law. i couldn't persuade him at the end of it, and in retrospect, he was probably right, because people, in order to survive,

legality was irrelevant. they did whatever they had to do in order to survive. ,n that kind of an atmosphere the thing that i had to do, since i was a lawyer, in notions of strict legality, it was unrealistic and perhaps unfair and i was overly concerned about that. anyway, the black-market did in time disappear and i am not sure that it did any big harm things,, but it changed a lot of german goods were exchanged for cigarettes. but i don't think it had any permanent significance. >> deed -- did you witness any -- [indiscernible] benjamin: oh, of course. i had no personal relatives of somen in the camps, but

cousins of my wife were there, and the conditions were very rough. but not as compared to the concentration camps. but everyone was very eager to re-create their lives. , anywere remarrying survivor was remarrying and raising children as quickly as they could, a defiance of that hitler was not going to succeed. >> what was done to help the victims with their own injuries? bejamin: that seems to me to perhaps the most important or oft to the most important ways in dealing with holocaust problems. war, war begins with is a form of holocaust. the next phase is to hold

accountable those who brought it on with the war crimes trials. the third phase is trying to what had been taken, that is the restitution program, and the fourth phase is the victim, what about the victims? in the courtrooms you think that the punishment is given out, but it is not over. orminals can be punished killed, but it doesn't make a big difference in terms of deterrence, but what do you do about those who survived? this was a problem that was not addressed by military government , except in the very crudest way in seeking compensation in the time at them -- the camp. they suffered all kinds of losses. if you are approached it legally, then it required a much more extended approach.

do you want me to tell you about that now? i will to you about how it began and how it was approached. notion that the individual an old notion. it was quite obvious to anyone who was concerned with the subject people had begun to write about it in israel and the united states about compensating victims of personal injuries. eager to reenter the family of nations. there is a devout catholic who had been saved by jewish friends when the not these were trying to drive the man out as mayor of cologne. he was very eager to find some

way in reaching out to the jewish communities. he was able to do that through a banker in london. established first contacts , thishe german government is the post-nazi government, saying, let us try to arrange something. they were involved very early the banker had been involved in a very different that a quay and the first question was, are the german serious -- in a way that was -- the banker had been involved in a way that was very serious, and the first question

was, are the germans serious? that you the idea shall not steal, and they would kill the victims and get away with it, and that was the same thing with compensation, and restitution programs. what compensation is payment for individual injuries sustained. the individual had to clear it with his government, which was conservative. socialists were more inclined and they themselves had been nazi victims. the first thing that was necessary was to test their sincerity. a compensation of and they didarks, not know what it was, because it

was so huge, but he was able to give them assurances that he would have the negotiations be , theus and eventually agreement was reached that we would and negotiations. at the negotiations would have three parties, one, the german government, and by that i mean the west german government. the east german government never answered. communications were sent to them, but this only began after germany was restored to its 1951.ignty around before then, there was no government to deal with. the agreement was reached that a negotiation would be entered into on neutral territory. no jewish organization wanted to go into germany. i said there were three parties.

a party, of israel was and at the time, the state of israel was a new state and there were a lot of enemies against it. purported to speak for jews who were not in israel. who would speak for them? both jews were not there -- most polishre not there, jews, german jews, russian jews. they had a genius to put this together as a conference on jewish german claims against germany. conference and it kept the name conference, and it consisted of a collection of the leading jewish organizations in the world. it had central british fund, jews of argentina, the jews of

france, they all came together and formed a new york operation and they were going to be the third negotiating parties so that the germans were negotiating with all of the choose in the world. the negotiations would take place in a secret destination in a neutral country. to give you some idea for the there was a big outcry in the jewish community, particularly in israel, that it was a betrayal of jewish honor. you are selling my mother, you are trying to get money for blood, those who do this will be betrayed by the germans, and there is no good german except for a dead german, we don't want their lousy money, we don't want anything to do with them, you are a betrayer of the jewish people.

there was a busy engagement of smuggling jews into palestine at that time, and that group felt strongly about that, to the bombt that they did send a -- in a in anti-german german encyclopedia, and the bomb exploded and killed two policemen. they had sent a letter bomb to the head of the german but to give you a little closer feel as to what this is like, the preparations for this meeting took place at the grove in her house in london for about a week -- grovner house in london.

i was there as claims counsel because i knew about restitution and i knew about what happened and all of that, so i was a expert.- an i can think of so many better experts, there were learned international lawyers, but we had a crew that was working in london trying to prepare the opening statements seen what we are asking for? wife and i had parachuted out of a plane into berlin from a recent time before, i was not eager to fly to her ever the meeting place was supposed to be. i said, look, tell me, i will get there by train. left there,hen we

you will be given an envelope and don't open it until you get to the taxi, and when you get there, open it and follow the instructions. we were under the security of the israeli secret service, and i opened it up and it said proceed to holland. i thought it was a strange way to go to brussels, and there i checked out at customs and i came in and they looked at my passport and they said, just a moment, and they had some men come out of the back room and he said come with me and i sat in a big, black buick and off we drove into the night. and after a day and a night i can, excuse me, can be -- you tell me who are you and where are you taking me? the duchess secret

police and i'm taking you to a secret meeting site. when dawn was breaking, we , andd into an old castle it seemed to me that i had seen ss men with police dogs there, i thought that the group had been executed and i thought i had walked into a trap and that there was a nazi underground as well, but as i looked at it a little more closely, when i realized i saw the s as police, it was the dutch police t --he police,it was the dutch and it was not a trap. i came in and checked it at the front desk, and the castle had been converted into a first-class hotel, and i checked into the hotel.

told to open the drawers, and there is a policeman's station on every floor, and if there is anything strange, immediately alert them. the jewish delegation came in he -- and the leader received a normal envelope would that had blacke powder at the bottom with a detonator. itwould kill anybody to had in his hand or anybody nearby, and that was intercepted by the dutch police, the israeli police, i think it was. we were told, because folk, because we knew that a member of a gang had entered brussels looking for us and was waiting in holland. they had been tracking him.

so it was filled with a lot of apprehension. there was a plane coming in with two is really delegates that had crashed over frankfurt, and it crash landed but it had killed everyone on the plane. we don't know if there was any connection and i don't know to have just beeny an unfortunate coincident, and i hope it was, but it was an area of high tension. when we appeared, there were people marching in the streets, threatened to kill anybody who's connected with the negotiations. so that was the way it began and what we were trying to do was to create the sense of justice from germanuries, and the coin a term that literally meant but you can'tin,"

make anything good again. was a moral obligation as well as a legal obligation when you injure someone, there is a duty for you to try and make recompense as best you can and try to heal them as s2 can, and that continues to this day -- as best as you can, and that continues to this day. no one had ever done this before. no one had ever sat down after a war to provide individual compensation to the victims of not only that war, but the persecutions related to it. to work out the principles and set up the machinery and to put paths and tolative let it be decided on an enormous scale, i mean, millions of claims, jews and non-jews. jews were the primary targets,

and the gypsies were close behind on the knotty extermination programs, but many othervery victims, including german victims, and it would be a mistake to disregard them, and we didn't disregard them. compensationhe laws, it would indemnify them, and they all have equal rights under the law, jews and non-jews. >> [indiscernible] benjamin: let me give you some idea of the legal principles involved. first, what do you ask for? andad global sums in mind, we thought of 3 billion marks going to israel to help cover some of the costs that they had incurred in absorbing the thegrants of not persecution, trying to rehabilitate them. it was a global some, which at

that time was vital to israel. germany had no money. germany was devastated. how do you pay it? it must be paid over a period of to 12 years. the claims was to give $5 million for compensation to the helpoutside of israel to with organizational assistance. then we had from these payments, incidentally, that is really railroads were billed, the israeli electrical system in germany, and if anyone had been to israel, they know that all of the taxi cabs were built by mercedes, and it was a great help. it is ironic that the state that was