the project titled explorations in black leadership was a collaboration between university of virginia professors phillip leaf letter and julian bond. next we hear from supreme court justice clarence thomas. he talks about his upbringing in the segregated south and the influence of his grandfather on his career. this program is about 90 minutes. justice thomas, thank you for being with us on explorations in black leadership. >> thank you. >> i want to begin with a question about brown v. board. i know it was decided the year before you entered elementary school but did you have some sense that this was a big deal? >> well, not at the time. the big deal was merng the multiplication table and how to add, those sorts of things, but as the years went on, particularly '56, '57, you got a sense of it because there was quite a bit of talk about it. my grandfather was very involved with the naacp, for example, so you heard that.

you also heard, as i mentioned when i wrote my mem wires, that we saw the impeach earl warren signs and i always wondered who this earl warren was. later on of course i would figure it out, that it was the chief justice of the united states and he was in trouble in part because of brown. >> i guess there is no way i could say did you ever think that you would be sitting in the building where earl warren worked. >> not only didn't i think of that, i didn't think that i would ever see the building where he worked. >> now, as you found out what it meant as you grow older, did you have some idea of what it might mean, what it could mean as opposed to what it may have turned out to mean? >> you know, my grandfather was an interesting man, he of course, dominated our lives and he felt that as these rights were vindicated that we had an obligation to measure up to use

them. i will give you a separate example. when the savanna public library finally desegregated and we were allowed to go to the main library, his point was that we were obligated to use it. that is, we had to show up no matter what and we had to read books because we finally had a right to do so. so when it came to education, as the rights became available, we had an obligation to use them properly so he would say to me in 1964 when i went to a seminary which was previously all white, he said, don't shame me and don't shame the race. in other words, you have to perform. >> do you think that the brown decision had something to do with opening the doors in the seminary that you attended? >> oh, i think the seminary -- i think it had an impact in lots of ways. absolutely. that was 1964.

that was ten years later and things were changing slowly, but absolutely. i think it got the ball rolling, i think it changed attitudes, it changed the legal arrangements, people like phyllis cravage who is on the 11th circuit now, she was on the board of education in savanna and started moving things in that direction back then. so in talking with her and people like ww law in savanna and previously before that saul c. johnson who ran the informant in savanna, absolutely. there was a combination of things that moved us in that direction. so, yes, it did have an impact. >> but yet at the same time you've been critical of the jurisprudence that created brown. >> oh, i think the -- not critical in that sense. it could have been stronger in the sense that, i mean, we all when we do opinions you look at another opinion and you say, well, i don't agree with this

approach or that, but, no, not with the bottom line obviously. >> so what do you think it has turned out to mean, the brown decision, all these years later? >> oh, i think it really did something that was -- could have been done back when plessy was decided in the 1890s and that is to affirm something that is clear in the 14th amendment and that is that all citizens had the same rights, all citizens of the united states. and made it possible i guess in a practical way for us all to have -- or at least have the possibility to have the same education. i mean, you know, if you look, for example, i happen to be a big sports fan and when i grew up games like georgia/florida meant nothing. it meant nothing because those schools were segregated. now, if you had savanna state playing south carolina state, that meant something, or florida a & m came into town, that meant something because we had some connection with them, but now

when you watch the georgia/florida game or you watch the alabama game you have such a large number of black athletes involved so you can see that even there just from a perception or just sports or entertainment standpoint it's quite different. similarly now when you visit the campuses, i go to university of georgia, that's a campus that was not open to me and so i think it's changed quite a bit. >> you can trace all these to brown? >> oh, obviously. i think that that's the beginning. that's something that could have been done years before. >> i've read, i think, that you think that brown is sort of a precursor of affirmative action, that it opened the door. >> no, not really. >> no? >> no, i don't think so. i don't think i've ever said that i'm not quoting you as having said that but just that brown happened and then the enforcement of brown or the carrying out of brown opened the door for a kind of -- of racial

spoil system. >> no, not really. i think that, yyou know, that's -- you know, you can debate that, but that's sort of the structural injunctionhrb you -- the remedy is something where you set up a broad system rather than deal with the case before you, but that's not -- i don't think that's accurate. >> okay. i stand corrected. now, how do you think brown impacted your life. >> you talked about these private schools which are not touched by brown that were open to you because of brown. what other ways do you think brown affected your life? >> oh, i think just sitting here. just the fact that we're here. i mean, just think about it, to the extent that people have sentiments that were inconsistent with the constitution that were somehow enforceable either by custom or by law, brown was one of the major pieces that began the

erosie erosion of those customs and those attitudes, whether it's in parks, public facilities, whether it's in public accommodations later on, but it changed and, i mean, i was right there in the late '60s and it was just beginning to change. it wasn't changed yet, but just think of something as simple as being able to go have a burger at one of the big boy's in savanna, you couldn't do it. yes, i mean, it's changed tremendously. i think you can't overestimate the -- overestimate the significance of it. >> who are the people who have been most significant in helping you develop your talents? i know the influence your grandfather had, but are there other people besides him? >> you know, i would have to really stay close to home with that because, you know, as the years have passed and i think about the people i've learned about or the people who have

been -- participated in my education, et cetera, it all goes back to the most crucial parts of my life and those would be people like my neighbors, my cousins. these were uneducated people. in liberty county, you've been there. >> right. >> you've been around bryan county and rural parts of chatham county and those people have more of a direct influence on me. now, nft educational arena i have to start with the nuns because the thing that they never bought into was the sense that somehow we were different and we were to be treated separately. their expectations were that we were going to parochial schools and we would learn the parochial school curriculum and there were no excuses. so they had an influence. but then it goes on from there and it gets a little bit easier once you start there. >> when you picked out for

special mention was sister mary virgilis. tell me about her. >> she is still alive, in her mid 90s, she is an irish immigrant who went into the convent in 1931. she was originally as far as our diocese were concerned she was at augusta at immaculate conception and went to savanna. i'm mat lat conception and savanna were orphan ajs and they got out rid of the orphan ajs and became grammar schools. she was unyielding in her attitude that you would do well. it was consistent with my grandfather's attitude. i'm a kid, 12 and 13 years old, i want to do what 12 and 13 yerltds to, i want to have fun and my grandfather's view and hers was that we did not have the luxury in the '50s to have fun. that we had an obligation to

perform and to do well. >> a moment ago you mentioned neighbors, what about neighbors, what did neighbors do for you? >> that's a really good question, it's fascinating, nobody has ever asked me that. what they do is they reinforce. the people around you reinforce. for example, if you're learning piano or an instrument or sports, it's called repetitions, repeating it over and over and over and over. well, neighbors tended to reinforce what you were getting at home, what you were getting at school, what you were getting at your church. the positive things. what you got at the carnegie library in savanna, it was all the same message. so my cousin hatti or ms. mariah, ms. beck, ms. ber trued, miss gladys next door, it was all the same message. >> in addition to your grandmother and grandfather they're helping reinforce what they're telling you? >> yes.

it was consistent. they were my neighbors and in the south of course when anybody could tell you what to do, you know, anybody could tell you to go to the store to buy some enough, some honey bee snuff or whatever they wanted at the time, some stand back or some anacin that they took frequently, and then they could -- i remember one day i was on east broad and henry street just down a few blocks from our house and we were cautioned never to cross the street against the light and of course i'm a kid so we crossed against the light, you know, there was no traffic so we ran across and out of the back window of the because you heard this voice, i'm going to t.d. on you. >> uh-huh. >> that was the worst voice ever to hear. that was ms. gertrude. and before we got home, i don't know how she got the message to my grandmother, but before we got home she had informed her that we crossed the street against the light where monday

we we -- where upon we were informed that your grand daddy will deal with you when he comes home or she said your daddy will deal with you when you get home and that was the worst threat you could ever have. >> did these people feel free to discipline you as well? >> oh, yeah. they didn't have the need because they knew the father of my grandfather was more than enough to discipline us. if they had to, yes, and then we would get a second one from my grandfather. >> oh, boy. do you remember a specific events, historical or personal that you view as critical to your understanding of american society and history, events from the civil rights movement, events in your neighborhood, events in savannah, something that let you know where you were, who you were, what was expected of you or not expected of you? >> you know, i -- that would be hard. i don't think it's more a specific event. i think it was a daily event and

it occurred with the neighbors or with the teachers. it's a small world. we lived a short walk from our school, our grammar school, and even shorter walk from st. pious to attend high school, the farm in liberty county was a 45-minute drive even in that traffic on highway 17 and it was all the same, the same attitudes, the same culture. so i don't think of anything as one sporadic event occurring that shaped me. it was a continuum or a continuity of events, a series of events in our lives, our daily lives, that had the greatest influence. >> you write about your grandfather being called boy by a white woman and struggling to restrain himself from stabbing a white man after another assault. what effect did these have on you? >> you know, i don't know, as a kid i think it had a great affect on my grandfather which in turn had a great effect on me. he was an independent man as a

result of things that happened in his life and he was a man who thought that, you know, when you talk of freedom, he talked of independence, that is, the ability to do for yourself, the ability to grow your food and he was a very active member in the naacp, we went to meetings, we went to 4:00 meetings on sunday, he would take us along because we have to learn. he thought that we should learn how to read so that we weren't like him where he was -- had to work with his hands. he wanted us to learn how to work with our minds and be -- but i think it had an influence on him because it wasn't that he had an assault from the man on his ice truck, it was that he confronted him and said some unpleasant things to him and my grandfather's reaction was intensely passionate, that he wanted to -- he felt like he was going to harm that man. the boy incident was different

because we were there. the first one we were not there, that was just an account that he gave us. we were there as little kids and to watch him first look at us and then look back at her, then look at us again, and then know -- it's almost as though he made a decision that i have got to raise my boys. that discipline to imagine knowing him, the discipline it took for him to do the right thing and the responsible thing. >> do you think he looked at you to test what your reaction would be to this insult he had received, or to see whether or not you had noticed it and absorbed it in any particular way? >> i think it was a blow and i think that he noticed us as we noticed him and as little kids, you know, i think you think, now what are you going to do? and how are you going to deal

with it? you are the greatest man we know. and it would stump people -- they would see him emboldened by those things and do something in the wrong direction that can ultimately be self-destructive. he did the hard thing to hold his discipline and it's a levssn to see, to my brother, even when you might see strongly be something or feel justified in doing something that could be self-destructive that you must do something that's more prudent and ben firm in the long run. >> i'm maybe putting too much into this. sort of an exercise in self-control. >> that's right. >> look at how i'm reacting to this. this is a lesson for you. >> remember what he said. that's precisely the point that i'm making. remember as i said earlier am my memoirs he always said to us that i will never tell you to do

as i say, i will always tell you to do as i do. that is a hard burden to put on yourself. >> yeah. >> because we did indeed watch him. we were kids, we were always around him. it isn't like today where parents are hauling kids around to soccer and -- it's like the parents are working for the kids now, it was the other way around when we were kids, we were like the little ducklings following the leader. >> were there any incidents in the news when you were growing up in savannah that let you know who you were and what some people thought about you or how you ought to think about yourself? >> oh, you know, i can remember being herded into our little den, that's where the motorola tv was and the news was a big deal in those days and we all had to watch what was going on in little rock, and being horrified and later on we would see the hosings and we would

watch what happened in birmingham, the fire hoses, the dogs, things like that and it really absolutely had a tremendous impact on all of us. >> i'm the same age as the little rock nine and they had a big influence on me because they were my age and i saw people like me, in birmingham i'm guessing in '63. >> i was in the eighth grade. >> so these are children roughly your age. >> yeah. >> did the fact that these young people were doing this speak to you more profoundly that it might have done had they been older people? >> first, yes, i was in the ninth grade when that happened. in ninth grade as a young kid you begin to feel your oats a little bit. >> right. >> and you begin to have the sense that we should be to go something. and i can remember my grandfather distinctly telling us, no way, you are not old enough. that your job is to go to school. your job is to learn. that's what all of this is

about. and so, yes, i mean, you saw it all. you saw other parts of the country and you also read about what was happening in savannah. the lunch counters, the kids interest savannah state with the sit-in, my grandfather in hush-hush conversations to use his property for bail working with the naacp. and it can't but have an effect on you. >> a few minutes ago you mentioned wesley law who was long time president of the naacp in savannah, a man i knew fleet i thinkly but an impressive guy. did other people who sat in this chair said there was a man in my town who was a leader in race matters, civil rights things and he was pointed out to me as somebody not that i ought to imitate but somebody who was doing things for the race was mr. law -- >> he was revered in our household. in the w.w. law we called him.

he was a mailman and he was very active. he was a leader. he was someone who was very supportive and, you know, we disagreed on things, some matters years later, but those disagreements didn't change things with me and how i looked at him. but he was just a man who stood up when it looked like it was dangerous to stand up, you know. he was one who said this is wrong and i'm going to work to make changes. the other people that i didn't know who were revered in our household, again, phyllis and aaron -- aaron kravatz was a local lawyer in savannah and allowed blacks to use his law library and his daughter phillips kravatz, they were revered in our house and there

were any number of others who would fight back or who would actually show up to the meetings and that's what my grand if a father would talk about, who showed up and who didn't show up, who had property to use for bail money and who refused to allow their property to be used. there was another gentleman in our area sam williams who was a friend of my grandfather who was also involved. so these people are held up to you as exemplars. >> exactly. >> they're doing things and not necessarily that you have to do these things but they're doing things that are admirable and setting an example for others and the ones who don't do these things are in effect letting the community down. >> i think his -- it was different then because they didn't always agree on what it was they should be doing. >> sure. >> and as you remember years later when some of us became very radical we actually were critical of the sort of go slow approach or people working within the system, but my

grandfather's attitude was that you should do something, you should not just sit and do nothing and you didn't have to always agree on what that something was, but you don't just accept the status quo because you are lazy or you are fearful and they were put up -- they were shown as examples of people who actually took the risk and made the effort to do something. >> even if it's something that you didn't necessarily agree with, they were doing something. >> they were doing something. >> as opposed to those who did nothing at all. >> exactly. >> let me take you back to the time when you were at immaculate conception seminary and you hear the news of martin luther king's assassination and a white seminary says this s.o.b. is finally dead and you described that as a final straw in the interview that the did with the san diego tribune in 1998. what did that do to -- it seems

to have set you off the path to the priest hood. >> i had been -- that was my fourth year in the seminary and i was always a little bit -- not always, but that year i was beginning to be a little shaky about it, but actually what he said, that's good, i hope the s.o.b. dies. that wasn't so much that i was following every move of dr. king because there were others at the time, you know, this is when you were beginning to get this sort of beginning of the black power, malcolm x had been around and there had been more dissension than people talk about today but there was, as you know, some dissension, but that wasn't it. it was more -- it was deeper than that. that this was a man of god who was, again, whether you agreed or disagreed, was doing something right and he was doing something for good. why would a fellow sem nare yan

wish him dead. and that was the end of it. i had already been having some difficulties with my vocation and this was the end. at the same time something else was happening, this sort of racial awareness, the fact that as you got older and you thought more deeply in talking with a fellow sem nare yan who was also black and white a bit older and the more i thought about it i thought that the church should have been doing more to point out that this is morally wrong and objectionable and of course that was not the case, at least as you saw it. it probably was, but i was looking at it from my very limited perspective at that time. so yes, it was the end of my vocation that day. >> then you write later or talk later about an experience at hole yie cross when you joined a protest in harvard square in 1970 and then began to ask yourself, again, according to this interview in the san diego

union tribune, why was i doing this rather than using my intellect. explain these circumstances. >> well, that goes back to my grandfather. he said that, you i couldn't figure out why i was there and i was very upset. if you were a lot of these college campuses and you're like 19, 20 years old, a lot of us were upset and but there was more to it. let's go back, harken back to the point made about him, the lady insulting my grandfather in

front of us. he had to make some decisions. he had to react in a different way in a way that he felt was constructive. and again, that example is there, what would he do? what would he expect and i think he expected much more of me. >> did you have a sense that what he expected of you, what that was? you were protesing something in harvard square and you said to yourself, my grandfather would have wanted me to do something else. what was that something else? >> he wanted me to go to school. he did not have great confidence in my at that, at this point, baugh because i had become quite radicalized and he did not understand that, but he would want me to go to school. and he would want me to learn. because he never had that chance. and a gift that i did have was

the capacity t ability to do well in school and to learn. very rapidly. >> so, even though he may not have known you were in harvard square marching up and down, he wanted you to be in the library and the classroom paying attention to what you were in school for. get some benefit out of being there. >> you know, we all have kids and they go off. you know, and we still have expectatio expectations. i know i always dragged around what i thought his expectations were and i think i referred to them in my mem ors as a brooding om any presence. it was the 25th anniversary of his death. this week is the 40th anniversary of the assassination of dr. king and it's just, there's some things that always are there. that date. is always there. and very poignant.

the events of 1968, april of '68, are always there. poignant. the assassination of bobby kennedy is always there. in 1968. the assassination of john f. kennedy is always there. some of these big events like the death of my grandparents and that ones i've mentioned, are always there. there are some others. you never kind of forget them as reference points, so, the person of my grandfather, even to this day, never evaporates. it's always there. that's why when you ask earlier about the early influences, i go right back to that source. because you read mitchy, thomas e qui nas, your philosophy professors, you meet people over the years. you read all sort of books. and what i found is that i have

no sort of intimacy with them. i see the written words, the thoughts, the ideas, but the person whoa, the whole person is back home. it's my grandparents, really. >> so, in spite of the reading of the education you've had, but college at yale i'm guessing, that this is is an ever present influence on you. >> most dominant. >> despite the fact that he passed away 25 years ago, still the most dominant. it's a remarkable tribute to him. >> well, i think, you know, the as i nibz my book, that he was the greatest man i've ever known. he did the right thing when it was easy to do the wrong thing and i think that it's easy today to vent, to be upset.

but it's not always the rigts right thing. you and i saw a couple of guys we knew at bar and they had a beef with each other, we'd try to figure out a way. your kids or grand kids are having a disagreement, you pull them apart, say, what's the right way to deal with this. i think that's what he was trying to show us with his obserown life because there were lots of insults that just sort of nipped away at him the entirety of his life. and yet, he showed us how to deal with that and continue on in the positive and constructive way. so, yes, he sits there as that great model for me. >> so, you found a way not to be dragged down, but to push on. >> that's right. hold himself right and proud and to achieve and accomplish in spite of it all and to figure

out a way to get his boys to do the same thing. >> let me shift gears a little bit. how did you choose your career? >> you know, i was in seminary and i had in law school, i spent a lot of time. i'd always felt that those of us to whom much is given of him, much is expected. and we'd always, whether we had corn or beans or peas, we always took it to those who needed extra or needed something. and so, it became natural in someone who was going to become a priest, it was a calling, that you would help other people. why else? how do you show love? but to reach out to those who are less fortunate. and so, you started tutoring. i worked in community programs. even in college. in law school. mental hospitals. we did the free breakfast

program and that's the more radical days. and so, when i got to law school, i worked in those days, we talked about being in community. >> what was a decision to go to law school? again, is it tied to helping others? >> going back to savannah. that's the point i was going to get to. it was a part of that voe kcavo. when you cease being a priest, how do you now help? what was going on in savannah in 1967, '68, '69, what was happening? you know, society was changing. resisting. still unfairness and another name you may remember from savann savannah, from georgia, bobby hill. my hero, my model. i didn't know him that well because there was you know, of course other problems, but from a distance, that was the model to go back and be a part of that ian fletcher, gill jones. >> yeah. >> that was my goal to go work for him. >> that was a path, integrated

law. >> that's right and i was in that firm, clarence martin was in that firm. he's since passed away. fletcher was there. bill coleman jr. was there for one year. i was there that summer. it's just roy allen, who passed away. he was also there. carlton stewart, who's in georgia, he was there. >> i severed with roy in the legislature. >> my point is that my specific goal, i have never worked for a law firm other than that. my specific goal was to go back and be part of that firm. >> and how did that not happen? >> i worked during the summer of 1973 and reef reached the conclusion it was not the right place. it was heartbreaking and caused further distance between my grandfather and me because it was clear then i would not be returning to savannah at that time. >> i wondered, was there another

opportunity for you legally in savannah besides the hill law firm? were there others, did you a approach them? >> i tried in different ways. i wrote letters and you know, called around and the answer was no. nor were there any opportunities in atlanta. that's why i didn't wind up in atlanta. i just as i've said, you know, i had received a series of rejections from atlanta and that is why i wound up in jefferson city, missouri. >> when jackson stopped being mayor after two term, no law firm in atlanta made him an offer. he had to go to chicago. any ways, so you end up in jefferson city, missouri and you're doing as i understand it, mostly tax work and other kinds of things? >> i started out with criminal appellate court. we, that was the beginning. it was really interesting because you show up, of course, you have to pass the bar exam. i lived with mrs. margaret

wilson that summer, which was great. a great learning experience in many ways and in september 17th, i argued my first case before the supreme court in missouri, so, you can imagine what i was like. i was 26 years old and but the job was great. it was an enormous amount of work to do and this was purely, it's a one of these swim or sink situations. there was very little supervision because people didn't have time. the great part about it was that it was the work came to you in an indiscriminate manner. it just poured in and you just did it. the other great part was that i worked for a person who was a good man. so, the, even today, i advise

my -- or any kids who ask me for advice to work for the person, not the job because again, it's sort of like learning from my grandfather. you can learn so much by observing a good person and having a good person work supervise you. >> and that was john dan forth? >> just a wonderful man and one thing he did, he never mixed the politics of his job. with the function of the office. so, we were never confused. and we never had to change things because it might be in his political interest. >> you know, he strikes me as an unusual person not necessarily in missouri, but an unusual person generally speaking. he's deeply religious and he seems to me to be a person who works his religion, uses, lives it in ways that others say i'm a christian really don't. >> he is a deeply religious man. and he did not wear that though

on his shoulder, sleeves, when we worked for him and we knew he was a minister, but never saw it. and it was only years later when i saw that. but he is just a good man. >> now, is there a point in your life and i want to take you back to school days, where you think to yourself and maybe not articulate it in this way, you say to yourself, i am a leader. other people follow me. other kids follow me. is there a moment or time or a place or an occasion where that strikes you? >> no. >> not in grade school, not in high school. >> i was never a leader in that sense. i didn't run for office. i one a vocal kid. just quiet and didn't ask any questions throughout my years in school. i wouldn't be one that i would point out that led anybody to do anything. >> well, in college, aren't you active in forming the black student group?

>> that was because i could type. had my typewriter. >> like the one who becomes the secretary. >> that's when i became the secretary because i had a type writer and i could type and edit. >> there must be some reason people looked to you for this. >> when i first arrived on campus, the head of the black student union was wonderful young man named arthur martin and he heard that i could type and i was a transfer student. i hadn't be therein the year before, so he brought over the proposed constitution and told me the changes they wanted to make and it was a handwritten portions. he said, would you type it up? and i said, oh, fine. so, i sat at my smith corona and typed and made the edits, that was it. i was reliable, let's put it that way. and this is something again that came from my grandfather. he said take the tractor, back the field and plow. he would go back and inspect

later on. you have to be reliable without supervision, so i was reliable in that way, but no, i would never, you know, my classmates, to this day, i was probably one of the least likely people to see leading anything. i was just, i just wasn't, i didn't see myself that way. >> so, never a time when you said i can lead people to do something. i can, i have the ability. within myself to get others to follow me and i don't mean follow you blindly, but to follow you. >> no. i was more independent. i was, i would think things through and make my own decisions. probably wasn't a great follower either. if anything, i was, i would say i was independent. more like my grandfather. i would participate, but i was a part of lots of things. i was a part of the black student union. i was a part of some other organizations. i was a part of the school newspaper.

so, i did all sorts of things. but i would not have pegged me, the only thing i could say about the leadership part of it was that i thought for myself. i liked to think things through and i loved the idea of talking and persuading. i think we've kind of gotten away from that in a society. >> that's a little bit of what i mean. talking and persuading, so, here's, you have an idea and a way of thinking and here's another fellow or classmate or student who thinks differently or doesn't think quite the same way and you can convince that person. >> try. >> you can try. isn't that some aspect of leadership? >> well, if you define it that way, yes. i love that though. i think that's a part of being educated. a part of the discipline of education. i think it is the most wonderful thing to open up the mind to really think that look, you don't have to agree with me, but let's talk about this. let's talk about whether it's

philosophy or history or art. let's just talk at it. it could be politics. the constitution. because what the way we've kind of gotten now is that we, it's almost like we have it's become a religious thing. that we, there's a religiousty to the opinions we have. i remember in law school, we would go over and get a dollar pitcher beer. back in the days when i enjoyed beer and we'd talk and the ideas were free flowing. i found those to be wonderful. next to the old coffee shop. so, if you define it as willing to change and debate ideas, then yeah, that's a part of leadership. >> and do you think or i was about to say, don't you think that people said, oh, clarence thomas thinks this way and about that. interesting, you need to talk to him about this. >> you know, it's interesting. i think they didn't say that politely and call me clarence then, but the, they said go talk

to him because he's got some ideas. i was interested in you know, in someone had a good argument, i was interested in looking at that argument. and taking time. i think that's fascinating. it's a fascinating part about meeting people. because they might come from a different part of the country. they have a different sort of education. they think a different way and it made education exciting. and i think when someone comes in, they have all the answers, that's a boring person. because you, they are just sort of preaching to you, where as i was more interested in just processing it and thinking it through, so i think wouldn't say that generously, he has some good ideas, but didn't say he thinks differently, might want to go over and say something. >> when you get to the eoc, you're leading an agency of 3,000 people and just by nature of the job, you're a leerd. did you think of yourself in

that way? i know you're a modest guy, but -- >> realistic. >> didn't you think that i'm in charge of this. i run this. >> well, it's like actually, it started department of education in 1981. about this time in 1981. and all of a sudden, you show up, you're in your, i was what, 32 years old. and there are eight, 900 people in this organization. some pretensionness and i said, what am i going to do now? you're sort of selected and put in charge and again, it is sink or swim. and then i go to eeoc, within a year, less than a year and it's really a spread out organization with any number of problems. and now, you must swim. and what you borrow from are the people that you respect. i mean, i respected and admired

the way senator danforth did things. i didn't have seize sort of lit news tests about people. i didn't put people in boxes. there are some people who didn't per fom and you dealt with them as individuals, but didn't put people in boxes, so, yes, when you were thrust into a leadership position and required when in these positions to do the job the best you can and you must be comfortable. >> one is you said you're selected. and you're selected for some reason because people say, he can do it. he can do the job. and then you have the job and you have to demonstrate that you can do the job, so, you weren't just picked willy-nilly. get that guy. somebody saw in you that some quality of leadership. >> i don't know. you know, the, i'd like to think so, but i just don't know.

i had been around washington long enough not to be presumption to think somebody saw something particular about me. >> nobody's going to say, give him a job, he'll mess it up. nobody's saying that. >> you know, maybe, i don't know. but the once i'm there, then i think you're obligated to perform. my view is very simple about these jobs. that is that you are required to whether you're put in a position to do the job as best you can. and a part of leading is leading by example. so, if you expect other people to put the hours in, you put the hours in. if you expect other people to be fair to each other, you have to be fair. if you expect other people to be disciplined in decision mayking you have to be disciplined in stigs making.

i had a simple rule, one of the hardest things to do in these jobs is to terminate people. you can ask any executive. bring a person and terminate people. over the years, whether i was at mt. sano or at the department of education on the hill, where ever i was, it always bothered me when someone had to work themselves into a frenzy to terminate a person. to imagine they're angry with the person. like a pep talk before a football game or something. i always thought that you have to do what you have to do. and you could do it in as pleasant a manner as you possibly could. leaving that person some measure of dignity. and that's a simple thing. i always thought it was very, very r important, but yes, i was put in these positions and once in those, i think you have to learn how to lead or you should just simply leave.

>> let me ask you what you see as the difference between vision, philosophy and style? how do these interact for you? vision, philosophy, style. >> wow. >> how would you define vision? >> how would you define vision? >> i guess for me, i'm not that creative. i had a say, just take eeoc when i was leading there. i had the sense that an organization should no matter where it was going, some people might have different policies. but the machinery of it should work. that processing should work. that you get in your car and you might decide to drive drive over to northwest, but wanted to work to get northwest. i might decide i want to go to northeast, but in both cases, our expectation is machinery of our vehicle works.

that's what i thought about eeoc. first of all, let's just make it work. and so my view was to have an organization that worked and that the people who were the -- it's not me. i was political at that point. the people who were integral were the career people, so, where ever i was, whatever i was doing, the career people have to buy into it. it was their organization. their careers. some of them had -- it was more that. and also, to make sure we have tens of thousands of cases coming through. how do we process these? there's going to be a tiny fraction that we disagree about, but the overwheming, we all agree on, these people need to have the rights within them and of course, there are glitches along the way, but if there was

a vision, it was to have the machinery work. to have it work consistently to statute and to have the people who would there as career people to be the major players. >> and then philosophy. >> you know, i don't know if i had a management philosophy other than that a job worth a good one is worth doing well. and that everyone should be treated fairly. i was not one of these people, i'm not real tolerant of people who don't do their work. i'm not going sit here and tell you that. i'm not tolerant of me not doing my work. my view is more like my grandfather's. you are here to do a job. and you'll do it. if you're not going to do it, you're not going to be here. on the other hand, if you do your job and do it well, i am your best friend. so, my best managers always had incomes that exceeded mine and i

would send them off to harvard to enhance their careers in different ways. i also had these wonderful programs when you run a fairly decent sized organizations, you have some latitude. you put say women or minorities in programs that would enhance their careers. and these weren't like say giving preferences. it was getting that pool ready. expanding it to move into upper management. whether it was at eeoc or other agencies. and the good news about that is that in the long run, it actually worked. that they went off and did other things. and people were taking them away from us. so, i felt that you had to, my philosophy was i treated people the way i wanted to be treated and i treated the organization in a way that i would want a manager to treat an organization of mine if i had one. >> and what about style? >> my style is pretty much low key. i'm a meat and potatoes guy.

i don't mean a dietary wise, i'd be bloated, but i'm straightforward. you know, some people tend to be flamboya flamboyant. i'm not that kind of person and don't pretend to be. what you see is what you get. i'm going to tell you exactly what i think. i'm not going play games with you. and i do believe that it is critical as a manager for credibility, for the organization, to level with you. if you want to be positive, that you tell them in a measured way exactly what you think in a positive way. if you have to bring unpleasant news, there is a decent way to do it. without destroying another human being. the other thing that you know, we had a very, we had the most the first population wise, organization probably in government. so, one of the things that you

had to be clear about was that we start on a very human level. we are dealing with human beings. everybody's a human being here. i don't pigeon hole people. you don't treat blacks a certain way, hispanics another way, native americans another way. people who are disabled. people with disabilities another way. a human being is a human being is a human being. yes, people have particular problems, but that doesn't identify them. they are human beings and i found that worked far better than putting peemg people in different pinlg lgen holes and treating them acard cordingly. >> some characterize the making of leaders in three ways, a, great people cautious great eefrts, b, mooumts back leaders ar the con fluns of events creates leaders appropriate for the times. does one of these fit you?

we've established you're a leader. >> oh, i don't know. inn i just have to take that as a we'll assume that i am, but i, you know, i think that at times, things are demanded of people. and either say no and think about your life. if there were things that were demanded of you at a certain time. the, i remember when and i relate this in my book, when i got here, i spoke with justice and i said, boy, you know, i'm sitting here talking to justice marshall, i'm like a kid, you know, wow. two and a half hours later and what was supposed to be a ten-minute meeting, you know, during that two and a half hours, he said, i said to him, that if i had had a courage when he was going around south arguing these separate but equal cases and eventually leading up,

that i wish i could have been there with him, but i don't know if i would have had the courage. he just sort of the leaned up in his desk and said, i had to do in my time what i had to do and you have to do in your time what you have to do. and i think it might come down that that. that for leaders that we're called on to do certain things at a certain time and the i do see it as a calling more than ambition or anything else. i can't say it's planned. i don't know which of the definitions fit. i think they all might be right. to a certain extent. i think it might be an uncertain calculus that leads us where we are. >> do you see legitimacy as a leader grounded in your ability to follow your vision or in your ability to articulate the agenda of a movement? >> well, for us, it's different here. at the court.

when i was at eeoc, it was leave leading people in a direction and one of the most gratifying things was when i was leaving eeoc, have people who were somewhat reluctant and reticent when i arrived to be so suppo supportive. just endearing and loving. because we had gone in the right direction. and whether no one else knew, they knew. and that's all that mattered. now, up here, this is different. this is more monastic, it's quiet, just like this room. we work alone. we have law firms. i work at home. it's more contemporary. this is different. you just think of this. one of the greatest paintings in my, that i think in the u.s. report is dissent in plessy

versus ferguson. quiet, alone, but stood there like a monument to what is right and then one day, what? it changed. >> right. >> everything changes. so, leadership becomes more like what my grandfather becomes, a pillar, a rock. you think it through. you make sure it's right. and leave it there. maybe one day, it will become a touch stone for some movement as the dissent in plessy became. >> don't you believe that in plessy, in that dissent and in your work today, that part of what you do here is to try to convince your colleagues that what you think is the correct way to go as a posed to what they may think of something different. that you try to achieve through these con ver sayses that you have and through the writings of your opinions. that they should join you. they should sign on with you.

i mean, has to be a lot of that going on here. >> it happens in specific cases. and it happens over a common tenure that we have. the what's justice white said when i got here that what matters now is what happens, what you do here. this is sort of, this is an intramural institution in that sense. the members of the court and the professional way, live with each other. it's a family. there's a sense of knowledge of each other and intimacy with each other that is unusual in organizations. we're not fighting for a promotion or the corner office or anything. it's all about the work. so, the relationships do matter. and up here, one of the things that really matters is your credibility with your colleagues. your honesty with them. how you treat them. how they respect you and you respect them.

and i remember i got a note once from one of my colleagues, i'm not going to give the name, but it's not justice scalia. saying that you're a wonderful colleag colleague. i understood what that meant and the feelings were much yul and we don't often agree. mutual respect. i respect my colleague's right to disagree with at any time and they in turn respect mine. and you earn that from them. so, it's the credibility that then becomes the engine to be able to persuade them because they know you're not playing games, you're not twisting or shading. that it is about the integrity of the body of your work and your thinking that's important. and there are times again, purely intramural, when that changes minds. when they know they can read

what you have written and they know that that's precisely what you think. there's no ulterior motive. no distant agenda. it's about these cases, so, yes, it does matter, but i don't think it's a tactical writing of an opinion. it's a body of work and a body of the way you conduct yourself. >> a case comes before the court and involves some issue you feel strongly on and you want to take x approach and you find your colleague, y, wants to take the other approach and there has to be some back and forth between you. where he's trying to bring you to his side or her side and you're trying to bring them to yours. that must occur. >> well, not probably as much you think. we've been here a long time. >> but i'm not going say, if i

were here and i'll never be here, i wouldn't say, clarence thomas won't go for this. i'm going to say i'm going to bring clearance thomas over here. >> i could bring you a long a little and you can bring me a long. there will be some common ground, but at some point, if you have an approach that's fundamentally different from my approach, we're not going to coincide. if you decide to drive northeast and i decide to drive northwest, we're both driving north, but not together. so, i mean, the but you learn how to live with that, but what happens over time is that sometimes, we see, well, maybe you have a point. not in this specific case, but over a body of cases. and you've tugged each other a little. so, we're sort of not necessarily heading in the same direction, but heading closer, in a closer direction. does that make sense? >> yes. >> and the, but i think what's

crucial up here gimmicks, we hear each ore, we look at the drafts, talk to each other and so, it always, you put all your product on the table. face on. for example, if i'm drafting an opinion and i send that, that draft goes around to all eight of the other members of the court. doesn't just go to one or two. if i disagree about something, the way it happens is that i write a letter, for example, dear ruth, that's to justice ginsburg. i don't agree your reasoning in this opinion for these reasons. okay, justice white used to end his letters by saying cheers, byron. but it's always warm, friendly, cordial like that. and then she might say i'll make some adjustments to accommodate your point of view. but so, it's all constant back

and forth. and over time, we've been together now for 15 years. so, over that time, we have to learn how to respect and work with each other. >> each of these, your colleagues, is exhibiting some kind of leadership. trying to steer these maybe these parallel courses to become closer and closer and you and all of them engage this this i would guess fairly routinely. >> every day, every case. the thing that's really interesting up here and this goes back to the process of education, too. the truth seeking effort. the it's really hard. you know, i've often said this job is only easy for people who already have the answer before they start. or for people who only have one point of view. or no authority to make any decisions. the rest of us, it's really hard.

because what you're trying to do is to find the right answer that is not right just because you feel it's right. it's not just your personal opinion. that's easy. the hard part is what is the right answer under this document and the, that's a little hard. and i think my colleagues, justice powell said when i first arrived here, he said that when you reach a point when you think you belong, it's time for your to leave. so, the process cancels some humility that it is a lot harder than looking at a bottom line and saying i agree or disagree. >> in your years here, and i know you probably don't like to talk about individual cases, but has your search for truth in case taken you to a place of surprise? >> yes. in many cases. the it takes me in places that

are not necessarily consistent with my personal opinions as a reaction to things. what i do with my clerks, saw one young man come in here a minute ago, he's one of my current clerks. i tell them up front what my initial reanchor actions, my feelings are, and tell them to watch me the way we watch any grandfather, when that lady came, you watch me and make sure i do not put that in that opinion. do not allow me to do that. and there's a discipline. just like he had to have a discipline. i have to have a discipline. because the interesting things that the, these opinions, have been shelf life and just like plessy had a long and unfortunate shelf life and that opinion did not have to be written that way.

but at any rate, the i try to not allow my personal views to drift into the opinion. except in the appropriate way with respect to jurisprudence. >> do you have a general philosophy that guides you through life and if so, how has it sustained you through moments of challenge or moments of al n alienati alienation? general philosophy. >> i think that you know, i'm religious. even when i thought i wasn't religious, i was religious. and faith, just the start parts, it's what's allowed me to survive in lots of ways. even in my mem wors, i mention when ever there were slights, i went to the chapel and over the year, even when i wasn't going to church, i would make visitations. the as far as the way i deal with other people, i believe very strongly that you do unto

others as you have them do unto you. i treat people the way i want to be treated. i don't care who it is. a person could be picking up trash or arguing before the court or whatever. i think that these, that people deserve the same respect that i think i would deserve if i were in this position. so, beyond that, i mean, there are other things that i could get into, but those are central to me. >> how does race consciousness affect your work? do you see yourself as a leader who advances issues of race or issues of society or both? and is there a distinction? is there such a thing as a race transcending leader? >> take the transcend. i think there are some things common to us all.

and when i found myself in seminary as the only black kid in savannah, in the late '60s, that i had to find things that we all had in common. that's been true throughout my life. my grandfathers used to say when people were quick to dismiss somebody, well, you could find good in everybody. there are exception, but you could find good in everybody. lincoln is said to have said that i don't like that fellow. that means i have to get to know him. i think you can find something that we all have in common. you asked a few minutes ago about management style at eeoc. i've looked at any person i came in contact with. what do we have in common? and we worked from there. we established that foundation.

now, with respect to race consciousness, there is, we're race conscious. we're race conscious society. we look at each other in we segment the population. we fragment the population and there's of course as a member of our race, there's been a treatment. i went back and found the plantation i'm from. it was there, just a few miles from where we farmed. not even a few mile, but i've never been allowed to go out. that's a history. that's odd, it's there. now, how do you deal with that? you can deal with it by focusing on that and put yourself right back. to where you came from. limit yourself. how do you get broader than that? and the i like to start as i said by thinking about what we

and folking on what we have in common. what transcends race. recognizing that race will always be a conscious part of the way we live. >> following that, do you have a different leadership style when you deal with groups that are all black, mixed race or all white? >> no. >> the same with the groups of falling into each category. >> i mean, when i was at eeoc, i had my standard civil rights speech that and i remember getting up at a conference in hawaii. and looking out, oh, my goodness. this is a totally different population. than my standard speech. addresses. you had hawaiians, japanese, you had samoans. the speech doesn't match the audience, but obviously, there's

some tailoring you do, but i think the core message is the same and i stay consistent. even with my log notes, i don't change them for law clerk's black or a female or asian. >> author's quote, william allen, he writes of a danger and thinking quote, in terms of race or gender. until we learn once again to use the language of american freedom and an appropriate way that embraces us, we're going to continue to harm this country. is there a danger of further deviciveness when we focus on the concept of black leadership? >> oh, i don't know. that might be going, i know bill allen. i think he was probably thinking much global or higher level.

than the specificity required for say black leadership. i think that's more bill's a very -- political theoryists and philosopher. but i think that you have to recognize that there are race specific problems. and that the specific problems to say native americans or whites or elderly people. but i think that we can, find now ourselves that way. if you hook at the 14th amendment, it doesn't break those groups. take the amendment that does the hard work in the area of race. it gives us rights at citizens. it speaks of persons. and what we were arguing for is that we were actually being denied the fullness of the benefits of that amendment. whether it's in brown or in any

of the other cases and so, the i think that the constitution gives us rights as citizens and we should make the argument or have the discussion on that level, but you have to recognize there are specific problems for members of different groups. understand that. but i think as a matter of constitutional right, it's on a hire plane. >> do you feel black leaders have an obligation to help other african-americans? is there a point at which that obligation ends and one can pursue his or her own ambitions? >> first of all, let me just say, i haven't had those ambitions. i know this sounds odd, but my life has been one of doing what i was supposed to do and doing the best job i could and the rest just happened. but let's go to this point. i think we are obligated to help people. and certainly those who are less fortunate and i can be more

specific. kids who look like me. who come from my neighborhood, i have a special affinity for, but my view is i help anybody who is trying who is less fortunate ch we have this week, this wonderful organization that i've been a prt of since i've been on the court. and underprivileged kids. they've been abused. they've come from difficult circumstances. and it's a way to help kids. who were, who are in the circumstances i was in. at their age. and some a lot worse off. so, i think it's not just black, it's not just women. it's not just hispanic or mixed race, it's everybody ch we are obligated to help others. >> you've written about the destructiveness of slavery, segregation, talked about damage done. can the playing field be levelled by and if, and can

government level the playing field and can it do so without breeding the kind of dependentsy you've also talk eed about? >> that's hard. and that's the one that has you pacing the floor at 2:00 in the morning. and worrying about it and certainly when i was in the policymaking role. i was worried about that endlessly. how far can you go without your solution becoming as harmful as what you thought the problem was. and my grandfather, isn't that fascinating, he used to go off in the woods early in the morning and come back later and he never had anything. didn't kill anything. he was, had his gun. across his shoulder and just come back and then he'd go and have breakfast. he said he was just thinking and these were the same problems he was thinking about. how do you help without hurt in?

but i do think, i think we sometimes ask the wrong questions. there's a lot of harm that you know, whether it's a broken family. it's crime. it's habits, it's just negative influences. devastating. and i remember trying to talk quite a bit about this when i was at eeoc. i don't talk as much about it now, but i do think that when you create these head winds, that prevent people based on race from accomplishing things, that government has to cease dha. that. that you have to rectify that, you have to remedy that and we attempted to do it in specific areas when i was at eeoc. i don't know how far you can go, how global you can make that without running into constitutional limitations. and i also don't know how far you can do doing that without creating or causing additional harms. the, i can remember when i was at the department of education,

i write about this in the book. that the effort when we were in, to desegregate the universities in the south, but one of the other efforts as corollaries of that, was to basically desegregate the black clengs fand not, there was a sort of this sub lynn limbal or implicit argument that they had to be eliminated. like savannah state or langston university for example. the smaller ones. and i thought why would dwrou that? to rectify a problem? further example is my high school. in savannah. turned out all these wonderful kids. first 98, 99th percentiles i saw on psats were there. all black high school.

well, that was closed in 1973 because of what the experts said. in part. the social stipulation, that is it was all black. to me, the remedy came worse. than first of all, i saw nothing wrong with the school, but that's of an absurd president clinton but i don't know how far you go, be u the constitution has strict limits. it says citizenship and person and i think we have to be very careful we're not locking in perez dense that in the long run will do greater harm. >> justice, i can't remember who said years ago, if you want to get beyond race, you have to go to race. >> that was justice black. >> okay. i don't know what that means. i think it means that you can't talk about remedies unless those

to race, unless those have some race consciousness in them. >> you know, i read that and read it and reread it and i don't know. how you get -- in order to be dry, you must be wet. i don't know that. i don't understand, i don't know how you can have just, but at any rate -- >> great case. which i know a little bit about par disversus alabama. state trooper case involving the exclusion of blacks from the state trooper ranks and the case went through several, several rulings in which courts ordered alabama to do this. and alabama just wouldn't do it every time and finally, after i think three higher court decisions, said to alabama, you will hire one black state trooper for every white state trooper you hire. >> imposed a quota. >> so, i think that's what it means. you had to go to race as a

remedy. >> i think sometimes, when you have a specific case, and i assume that was a class. >> yes, i think it was. >> the remedy. the courts have imposed specific remedies for that. now, you or i might disagree, but if somebody's foot's dragging, sometimes, a remedy has to be firm and clear cut. now, that's not global. that's the specific case. >> just this case. >> and it's just saying this because now let's say they had been cooperating and done what they were supposed to do. it might be that it was inappropriate. now, i don't have the answer as for all these cases. i tend to be reticent to having lived in a race conscious environment. where we were actually excluded because of race. to now say somehow, i'm comfortable, counting by race. i think that we can build in to that constitution certain exclusions that will compact the

hardest. >> what do you see is your greatest contribution as an first amendment leader? remember, you can't deny you're a leerd. >> i don't think in those terms. i think that when you are called upon to do a job, you do it the best you can. and then when when it's over, you go away. and you just be grateful for the opportunity that you had to do it. that's it. i don't look back and wonder about legacy or whether or not how i'm going to be treated in books or anything like that. i think that that's just thinking too highly of yourself. i think it's about the job and the cases that you sit on. that you try to just make sure you do it right. that's it. and you know, my grandfather as i said to you, when i went to seminary, he said, boy, don't shame me and the race.

and to just do your job. just do it confidently. i don't do any more or less. i don't play games. i don't do things to be flamboyant or draw attention. i just do my job. the proof of the pudding, all the talk about style, this and that, when we're long gone, the proof is in the u.s. reports. we don't have a clue what style is, what we know about it is that in plessy versus ferguson. now, neither you nor i know the circumstances in this country, 50 or 100 years from now. we don't know which cases are going to jump out of those u.s. reports and be the determining case. i live with -- principles have a much longer shelf life than the

sort of fads that come on. whether it's socially or otherwise or political. it is critical, all they want to do is to do this job in a way that when i look at the bus to my grandfather overlooking me, know that he would say it's a job well done. that's it. no more. >> and so, when you're writing an opinion, are you conscious of those 50 years? that have yet to come? sq>> i'm anxious this is going be here a long time. and i don't know to what use it will be put. but that you might be that's a very good question, by the way. i tell my law clerks that we're not writing current events. we're writing for much longer period. again, look at plessy. i'm not saying that anything that i have written rivals the dissent in plessy, but i will say that these opinions have enormously long shelf life.

so, it is critical that they not be based on shifting sands of fads and what's popular, but rather principles that are locked down. and that will be here when the tides turn. the tides turn or the wind blows in a different direction. 50 years from now. deal with that. >> in his book, race matters, cornel west writes the crisis of leadership is the symptom of black distance from a vibrant tradition of resistance from a vital community bonded by ethical ideas and from a credible sense of political struggle. do you see a crisis of leadership in black communities today? and if you do, what makes this happen? what contributes to it? >> you know, i don't know. i just see leaders. if you look, my goodness, we have gentleman with some you know, mixed race.

had a great chance to be president of the united states. you've got maybe it's different, i think the current governor of new york is black. current governor of massachusetts. we've had the governor of virginia. you know, yeah, there are problems. but you know, i think, i'm more optimistic. i think the problems are of just, they're heartbreaking. you know, i go back to sa vvann, just breaks my heart, but it's been breaking my heart for most of my life. you know, that you can't persuade, that you can't, even with people close to you, say, look, you know, like my grandfather, said the library's open now, you can go. but i don't know. i'm not going to condemn leadership. i don't know that well. i think that if you say that, often enough, the young kids who could be the leaders might not want to be.

or might feel that it's too steep a hill to climb. but i see the young kids, i see on these university campuses in there might be a gap or there might be not a great leader in this particular locale, but i see another generation of leaders coming up well trained and ready to go. i don't know. he might have a point that i'm missing, but i don't feel that negative toward leadership. >> what kind of leaders discuss contemporary society demand, and how will future problems demand different leadership types? i don't know we can't predict the future, but who do we need now? what kinds of leaders do we need now and we might need in the future? >> i sometimes think -- and this is just my perception.

i have no particular skill or certain knowledge to even comment on it, but my own personal concern sometimes is that people find out through polls or through fingers to the wind where people are going and then they jump in front of them and call themselves leaders. i don't think that's what a leader is. i go back to my grandfather. i think you've got to have some principles that you believe in that are important to you. in order, as you say, persuade people i think you certainly need the ability to communicate to them, but you know above all when it is not looking real good, you need some courage. i remember this wonderful quote that i won't get right but churchill after his wilderness years and his political career

is supposed to be over and he's going to be named prime minister. he's going to buckingham palace. he's quoted as having said something to the effect it was as if my whole life was a mere preparation for this moment. you know, i don't know. i think that things you do need in these jobs is courage. i think you need to hold, even when you're being tempted by praise, you need to remain firm in principle. when you're being beaten by criticism, you need to be principled. there are things when you were in liberty county, you were not safe. you know it and i know it. what propelled you? what was important to you? why was it worth the risk? what called on you to pull that courage up to go in a rural area where if you got isolated back

up in those woods, it was going to be difficult for you? what is it that gave my grandfather the courage to strike out on his own? i don't know. or when he went to get his business license. i think there was something that was in you that said no matter what i'm going to stand up. and i think leadership perhaps first and foremost requires fortitude. >> do you think that something was conviction, the conviction that he stood for something that was right and just? >> yeah. >> and therefore had a responsibility to demonstrate it to others? >> i think so and i think it was even beyond that. i think right and just may cover it because right and just includes raising his voice, right? it includes showing how you can live as an independent black man in the segregated south and

showing how a motherless and fatherless child could survive. i think it was worth it to him. and for me -- and i borrow this from that movie "saving private ryan" where captain miller is asking sergeant ryan right at the end of it, he asked him these words or told him, earn it. earn this. and with my grandfather, what i've got to do and what i've got to do because of you and other people who risk it, you've got to earn it. you know, you do it not do in a sense that you're mimicking or you're being control or we agree, but there is -- just like the library, when you people fight for us to be in the library, how do you earn it? how do you say to them thank

you? do you say thank you? or do you go to the library and use it? in the sense that it was for him that he was doing the right thing for him and us that we earned the right to benefit from the right thing. >> are the values that you talk about teachable? we know they're teachable on an individual basis, your grandfather to your and your brother. but are they teachable on a larger basis to children in a classroom to older children? can you transmit this? >> you know, i've traveled all over this country, and i've been in all sorts of environments and some pretty depressed. and i think that when kids look you in the eye and you sit down and you talk with them and you explain to them -- you don't have an agenda. you just care about them.

they can sense it. i remember sitting in a room with black law students at the university of georgia, and after a couple of hours of just talking they understand what you're saying. but what we almost have to cut through or peel away are the layers of negativism and cynicism and mistrust. that's the unfortunate part. but as soon as you connect on a sincere level and you tell them this is not about you agreeing with me, this isn't about you having a particular point of view, this is about you thinking about your lives and the fact that now, the mere fact that you're in law school, you're the leaders you're it, they do get

it. they believe. they want to believe, but you've got to give them something to believe. i quote a janitor just across the street when i was in the senate one morning when i was coming in all down in the mouth and despondent. he made it clear to me you cannot give what you do not have. so you go to these kids and you don't have anything constructive. you have nothing positive. you're worried about your own sort of self-interest. they sense it. you've got to have it to give it to them. and the bottom line answer is yes. you can influence them. will you influence 100%? no. but you can influence the 20%, the 30%, the 50%, the kids who will be the leaders. you can also do it by showing how much you care about them and how sincere you are about their ideas and the fact that you're not requiring them to agree with you on the bottom line but to be

independent and have their own thoughts. >> justice thomas, thank you for being with us. hello, this is hillary clinton. i want to thank you for letting me speak with you about an issue that is central to our kids' future and critical to our fight to restore this nation's economy. sho solving our nation's health care crisis. >> the future is created every day. the future is not something that is out there waiting to happen to us. the future is something that we make. >> i believe there's a good possibility that sometime in next 20 years we will have a woman president. >> hillary clinton experienced many firsts in her role as first lady. she and husband president bill clinton have been political partners since law school.

as she considers a second bid for the white house, her story is still being written. hillary clinton, this sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on "first ladies, influence and image, examining the public and private lives of the women who fulfill the position of first lady." on the eve of the american revolution, williamsburg, virginia, was a bustling capital city home to politics, trades people, and a large enslaved population. american history tv will return to the williamsburg of the 1770s on december 5th where we'll be live from the historic district. we'll see revolutionaries and british loyalists mingle on the streets, the house of burgesses where george washington once served.

we'll hear about colonial slave life, hear from a master black smith, and go behind the scenes of williamsburg costume center. and viewers can ask questions throughout the day. live from colonial williamsburg saturday, december 5th beginning at 11:00 a.m. eastern on c-span 3. on road to the white house rewind, we look back to ronald reagan's presidential campaign announcement in the 1980 election. the former california governor talks about the economy, taxes, energy, and foreign policy. ronald reagan won the 1980 republican presidential nomination with george h.w. bush finishing a distant second. he went on to defeat incumbent democrat jimmy carter in the general election carrying 44