brought to areas where they were growing and making sugar. it was a huge business. argued it was a new enterprise. >> american history tv come all weekend every weekend only on c-span3. >> 40 years after the first full-scale engagement between u.s. troops and the people's army of vietnam, the vietnam archive at texas tech university interviewed veterans from the battle of ia drang valley. it was after these battles the north vietnamese forces began engaging in guerrilla warfare. the americans, outnumbered by the army, prevailed, but at a heavy cost. next, an interview with captain ed "too tall" freeman, a helicopter who flew his unarmed helicopter into landing zone x-ray to deliver ammunition, supplies, and to rescue wounded soldiers. >> we are commemorating the

anniversary of the battle of ia drang valley. >> we are in washington dc. it was in major freeman, think november 1965. you for joining us. i want to ask you about those days. could you tell me about your training for those types of missions? you had to throw some things out the door and improvise. tell me what you bought into the battle. major freeman: experience. i did not have the privilege of training for the assault. by commander did. --my commander did. they trained for two years. this was a brand-new concept of warfare as far as the army was concerned. i was already an experienced power prior to coming to that

organization. i ran for a year in tactical mapping. an experienced pilot prior to coming to that organization. iran tactical mapping. i had been in south america for four years doing the same basic job. host: and you had experience in korea? major freeman: yes, and i felt the sting of battle when i was very young. host: did being on the ground in korea, seeing battle in that sense, help you in those days in november, supporting? -- supporting the colonel? major freeman: absolutely.

i understood war better than when i first encountered it. host: tell me about bruce crandall. how was he is commander? major freeman: he was a tremendous leader, to the point of being a little dangerous. we were coming back in one evening from an operation. we had been inserting troops. we were empty. we renew this one village. we normally receive fire from that village. he came in on the radio and said to the other pilots, take over the flight, follow me freeman. we peeled out from the organization and flew around a village. we landed.

i asked why we did that. he said to draw fire. he was my friend and also my commander. he was trying to draw fire, at which time we could've called in gunships to take care of the problem. i said we could've found other ways to draw fire than that. anyway, that is an example. host: he was a good leader. how about communication? you'll have to talk to each other when you are flying. how important was that? major freeman: we work together really well. we were in panama together. he was in costa rica, and i was in nicaragua. we went to advanced engineering schools together. i watched his kids grow up. both of our families grew up

together. he is an outstanding individual. >> what did you know then about colonel moore? major freeman: i didn't know much. most of the time, we were almost assigned to him as each units, depending on numbers, was assigned to a battalion. i got to know him really well. i am an honorary member of the first in the seventh. after the battle, he called bruce and i in and made us honorary members. i signed a document. i have a medallion. my number is 11. bruce's was 10.

we were honorary members of the first. host: what was he like on the field? especially for those three days. major freeman: he was firm and believed in training above everything else. when you have that, it makes for a better battle. your soldiers are very disciplined. i compared it to what i ran into in korea. mix of people. i had some soldiers who were not trained. i'm not badmouthing anybody. it was an entirely different situation, to be with a trained and skilled organization versus one that wasn't. host: what were your preparations? four november 12 and 13.

what were you all expecting? major freeman: i don't think we expected what we got. our intel said there's suspected enemy activity in the area. that suspected activity turned out to be three regiments. they met us. they were on the fifth lift. not one round was fired for the first five times we went in. -- four times we rented. -- went in. on the fifth one, they arrived. they announced their arrival and really worked us over. host: told me about the first time you'd got fire. major freeman: you almost get complacency. you are doing this for four trips, and you are like, i guess they went home. suddenly, they open it up.

it begins to tighten up, and you begin to reassess your position. we lost quite a few helicopters. there were damaged beyond repair. some of the helicopters could not make it back to the pickup zone. it was a fierce battle instantly. it was like turning a switch on. host: what was coming at you? what was being shot at you? major freeman: ak-47's. some machine gun fire. 90% was ak-47's. they travel light. that is their primary weapon. occasionally, you would enter an area with light machine guns. ok julie you would also run into 51 caliber machine guns. i did that once, in the ia drang valley. one knocked a hole in the main rotor blade you could put your fist through.

i expected to fall any minute. it did not hit any sparks, so it just made a terrifying noise. most the time it was ak-47's. host: let me ask you about operating in that environment. when it got, like you said, instantaneously very dangerous. very lethal. first of all, for yourself, how do you continue to fly? you are under orders. you want to support people on the ground. what are you feeling when you are coming in to x-ray and you are really getting into it? major freeman: training. the only difference between a training mission and a combat mission is bullets. the combat mission has bullets. your mind yourself that you cannot change what is going on about you. i always have the mindset that

it's more honorable to let the enemy kill you than to kill yourself. if you get carried away with fear and anxiety of what's happening, you can hurt somebody, including those around you. you make mistakes. stick to your lesson plan. fly the ship at all costs. to the last second. continue to handle your equipment as it is needed to to make a successful approach. sometimes that can be pretty , tough. there is horrible terrain and tall trees everywhere. x-ray was just a little shorter than a football field. the trees were 250 feet tall. very tight and confining, because you have to have some skill, a lot of skill to get in and out of there successfully

without damaging the aircraft. host: was fear a part of your day? major freeman: absolutely. but controlled fear, again, you go back to i cannot change things. if you do not, it will devour you. another thing i had i did not , expect to survive. and had been in tremendous battles before. whom i do say that i'm the chosen one, and i will be spared? i will tell you, two things in a situation of combat. you need skill and need luck. it's like "texas hold 'em", and both of those are involved. i think that they play an equal part, possibly. skill is a must if you will

successfully perform the duties assigned to you and do it safely. it would be a shame to splatter a load of troops all over the if the mission was to get them into battle. at least let them get in there and let the enemy take care of the problem. host: when did you realize you would probably not survive this? when did you have this realization that i am not going to survive this? i am not the chosen one. did you have that thought? major freeman: i walked down the peer in mobile, alabama. i'd been to war before. i got on a baby flattop. i explained to my wife, there is a good chance i won't return. take care of the kids. don't expect any miracles. i walked away.

my oldest brother was with me. he said it must be exciting knowing you're going off to war. i said yes, i am about to pee in my pants. i was so excited. he meant well. it was exciting. the most exciting thing that has ever happened to me was being in a formation with 100 helicopters going to battle. i've never smoked marijuana. if you want a high, get in a 100-ship formation of helicopters. host: told me about sunday, tell me what it -- what evolved. tell me about what bruce did. major freeman: it was a normal, supposedly, operation. we did everything the same. we prepped the area with artillery. we arrived 30 seconds after the last white phosphorus if the ground. we did that exactly.

host: more you down to the earth at that point? major freeman: yes. this was the first landing in that area. we did this and came charging , we're not disappointed was surprised that nobody was fired back at us. host: so moore and dyland were in the first chopper? so you are number two? major freeman: yes. i had company commanders. and i'm not sure of the names of a lot of them, but there were a number of them, all uniformed. the first inform soldiers we saw in the country. before that, it was guys in pajamas. black pajamas. they called them "pc." they were rice farmers during the day and pc at night. they would lay down, they would

pick up their gun. they would go harass americans. host: what do remember for the fifth time when it gets hot. you all were beginning to extract, or were you still landing? going back-and-forth? major freeman: after the fifth landing, we all left backed the pickup point. he called colonel morgan and said no more helicopters need to come to the landing zone. i'm a little smarter. i know he had to have ammunition. basic load was 100 rounds per person. it doesn't take long to unload 100 rounds of ammunition with m-16's. so, i knew it wasn't going to work.

i knew something was going to have to go back and if anybody was going to survive. without ammunition, the enemy would have killed every member of the organization once they ran out of ammunition. so, we licked our wounds and decided which helicopters could and could not fly. got everything rearranged. we decide this will work, that will not work, you take this one and i will take that one. we assigned the helicopters. after 45 minutes, and the time is kind of blurry, we got a call. he says, "i need one volunteer to come into landing zone next and bring up water ammunition, and take out my wounded.

we were talking young, 20-year-old officers. never a shot fired. they had just come out of the fierce fight. not a soul moved a muscle. i don't blame any of them. i said, i've got it. i started walking toward my helicopter. it was already loaded. i had planned that this had to happen. as i crawled in and hit the starter, frank marino, angel kuba, they all started crawling into my helicopter. that was my crew. my crew chief my gunner, my , copilot, who shared my cockpit with me. i said to get out of the helicopter. he said, no, we are crew, we are going with you. i look at him i said frank, this , will be the longest day of your life. i said it may be the last day of

your life. he said i know that. i asked if he was still going. -- going to go -- going? he said yes sir. 14.5 hours after that, i set it down. i missed a gap. as i did this, bruce came running out and said i'm going too. i asked what happens to the company when you get zapped? he said we will worry about that when it happens. so, we joined up in formation, and my last flight was at 10:30 at night. it was the two of us over the trees with a flashlight. let me tell you about the flashlight. back up one minute. i was an instructor for two years. one of my jobs, one of my tests was to bury a six cell flashlight in the ground and

turn it on and put it near the side of the runway on a training field we had and turn the light on and take the helicopter to 1000 feet above terrain and give it to the student and shut the engine down. his job was to do a 360 degree turn. when he stopped, i wanted to see the light shining between his feet. if you didn't do it, you got a pink slip. nears that day, everybody forst knows about pink slips. anybody who has ever flown. host: so you are prepared. -- were prepared. major freeman: i was prepared. i wanted to be in total charge of that equipment. i could make it almost talk. i told bruce i was the greatest helicopter pilot. and he was second. [laughter] we will argue about that. i was prepared, i could make it do what it was capable of doing.

that is what i record of my students. that was called insurance. if you know your machine and had -- operate it and anything that comes between, you can identify how to prevent catastrophic failure. host: when you took back off, how many guys did you have to support? you did major freeman: it was a 14 hours. 13 minute flight, each direction. we flew 14.5 hours. i do not remember. they put a number about 30 that ie vacuum it. i could not count. i can tell you, i was in the hospitality room. 20 guys walked up and said without you, i would have died in x-ray.

i said i wish i could remember your name. i can't even remove your face. host: so you wait for them to do their work in the back, unloading, and you go. you are holding in the cockpit. major freeman: never got out. i stood on the skid and took a leak. you never know. beans, and hen of did the same for me while i can of beans. you never know what is hit. something will break or come loose later. , you just drop it and let maintenance people look at it and figured out. obviously, sometimes they will shoot the tail rotor off. we have fuel lines, and always in the belly of the fuel line, we had a sub ceiling feel system.

a fuel system that would only go down to a third of a tank that would seal itself. if you're in a helicopter, nothing but fumes of jet fuel hit you in the face. it was a matter of seconds until we hit the big ball of fire and it was over with. that is exactly what you're thinking. why it doesn't blowup, i don't know. it's spewing fuel. we are running the engine at 900 degrees centigrade. that is quite a bit of fire. fortunately, it did not. host: so you are going out, can you describe the evolution of that day after you and bruce decided to continue to go back? what happened? major freeman: give me that question again. host: as you go through the day, when you and bruce make the decision to go back flying, what happened on the ground? what are the differences?

what did you see is the day went on and then into the night? major freeman: at night was the biggest fireworks you've ever laid eyes on. we would ask to lay down protective fire when we come in on the shore. infantry would start shooting at the enemy to keep their heads down. we would be offloading injured soldiers. it was a blur, basically. i can't even recall 15 hours, other than the fact that a couple of times, the c rations, we would eat, and taking a leak from the skid, because we could not waste any time. they needed every round of ammunition and every band-aid and first aid kit we could muster and all the water we can haul. those troops needed it bad. we wasted no time shoveling in and out. host: what do you remember about

colonel moore? he was on the horn with bruce, were to -- were you talking to him as well? major freeman: i monitored all communications. we may not tell other pilots that. it gets cluttered if you have too many people chatting. so come we would take 1400 pounds of fuel follows, don't talk. we don't describe everything, because it is better. yes, we discussed -- colonel moore would tell us if the lz was hot or warm and advise us. he would tell us to move to the west side a little bit, because we have a push to the easter -- east or whatever. he was air traffic control, so to speak.

at the last flight in at 10:30, he says, i can survive until daylight. i wanted to get out and go kiss him. i didn't. i knew better. tell thing.n't we went back in and landed. vomited, i did the same thing. and at daylight, crack of day, we started all over again. we flew all day that day and the following day. we did this for three days. host: the movie portrays bruce vomiting. he is accosted by another gentleman. did that happen? major freeman: yes. that was the medevac who refused to go in. because it was hot. in defense of those pilots, i

know some good ones. it was not their policy, but headquarters policy. i wanted to transfer, if you could land in a hot lzr wanted to be in that outfit. i thought why are you here if you cannot land and a hot landing zone? that did not make any sense. i can't blame the individual. bruce was going to go over and maybe shoot him, and i took the gun away from bruce. i explained that we don't shoot our own. i said i was going to shoot both of them if they kept messing around. i was passed, too. it blew over, and nothing came of it. bruce was hot. and i can understand. i was passed -- angry. sometimes, you cannot change things. you change things if you can. you have to know the difference. host: november 15. this is colonel moore said this

is one of the worst days he had ever experienced in combat. it was the most difficult time of the entire three-day battle. the dawn attack was tremendous. he went out first light. what did you see what you got there? major freeman: everywhere you looked, people were killing each other. a sea of that -- a sea of people killing each other. the fire was solid. the tracers, you could walk on them. it was a strange eerie feeling. knowing that you are going into where they were in very close range to us. again they did not keep their , heads up too long. they knew that helicopters were their lifelines. they worked hard to keep the

people from trying to kill us. some of them got through, of course. we always took some rounds. but it was an eerie feeling. host: tell me about sleep deprivation and how you work through the stress? major freeman: i was not exhausted. because my mind wasn't working well. i couldn't remember what i finished. i went in and i lay down, and immediately i was in la la land, drifting. it seemed like i was there 10 minutes or less. next thing it was daylight, and some recently got a go. i felt a little better, but not a lot. combat is a strange animal. it is a strange thing that does different things to different

people. it treats people different. not all are the same. >> how did it treat you? major freeman: again, i called on my experience from korea. i accepted that this was probably the end. i got through to a little better than i would have if i'd been out there the first time. host: what did broken arrow look like? can you describe it? major freeman: airplanes came from all sides. some are ridiculous, because a jet would come by, and the bomb would scoot across the area into someplace else. the jet is not a close air support machine. there is a man and his head, he agrees.

it is too fast to support ground troops. they would miss their target. f 104, or was an whatever you had during that time. do this. in the bombers is skipping. they skipped down to the bushes. ineffective. i thought it was almost the end of the world. they were stacked up. every aircraft available in the country of vietnam came to our a when that happened. there were formations of aircraft circling, waiting to come in and drop the ordinance. but still the a when he was the best and most effective when available. --a-1e. i don't know the but the name paul now -- napalm out. the japanese kid.

his mother called me probably a year ago and we chatted. i did not know what to say. he died the next morning. host: for the first time she called the? major freeman: yeah. it was chaos. it was almost like a movie scene with the amount of aviation that was trying to get in there to support the operation. and there were a lot of them dead. a lot of damage done to the enemy. host: tell me about joe galloway? major freeman: i did not have much contact with joe until it was over with. we used to drink a beer or two together. i have noted -- known him all those years. got to know the real well. is a straight arrow in a very bright man. very clever. very intelligent. good person.

a good human being. after the battle he said he took you to the tent. what do you remember about the troopers and him on the 16th when they came out of there? asor freeman: it's the same we lifted them in. they came in anti-and extracted them, which we did a lot of times. look about different a young gis in their eyes. , i'd of a ever changed expression. a big square jaw. i think he's a good actor maybe. he don't show very much emotion. certainly not amongst his troops. just steely eyed and squared

away when it comes to that because you don't want to let shed offis emotion onto his troops. i believe i might be right on that. joe was a happy-go-lucky guy. and still is. phoenixr night at the only have the medal of honor society meeting, 77 of us showed up. we presented joe with a journalism award from the medal of honor society. he got up and made his speech -- the army the way gave him a bronze star. he says by the way, i should've gotten another metal for writing around with that -- riding around with freeman in vietnam. host: tell me about the movie. how is that changed inks for you? -- things for you?

bruce is really the focus. major freeman: bruce was down there. he was more of an aviation advisor. they called me and wanted me to come down but i didn't lose anything at fort benning, georgia except blood and sweat and tears. i decided that bruce can handle it and i did not need to go. i thought it was very well done. i enjoyed it. it was about 85% accurate in my book. i think most people i talked to would give it at least 85%. accuracy they sent me a copy of the script and asked for comments. the day, that i had was get rid of some of the profanity. in my case i have two young grandchildren -- granddaughters. they probably heard it before but ended up with and become an adherent out of the movie. i don't think they paid any attention to me because you probably have seen the movie and you notice they did not -- a

waste of effort when i made my comments. job updated a pretty good of making it. i did not approve of some of the things but most of the -- most of it was accurate. host: how about the ending when bruce came in? the greg kinnear character? he comes in and takes out on the third morning on the 16th? major freeman: he and i and the gunships? not true. you can't use a gunship when you have your own troops on the ground. the only time we could fire our machine guns that were on the side of each of our helicopters would be on the initial trip in. for the first trip in we would hose everything down hoping we could get any stragglers. other than that you can't come in their. you have got to have some pretty open area to host them down with. otherwise your own troops will

get it. that was -- it looks good on the movie but it did not happen. we did not stacked bodies up. we did not touch them. and you can walk on them because they were thick. we did not stacked them up. we do not urinate on mortar tubes either. inukhe diction of -- ch coming in with women reporters. host: was this reunion been like for you? major freeman: i have raced through my mind a few times. replayed it maybe. reruns. movie iot seen the don't think since the premier. maybe i caught it a little bit on tv one night, maybe the end of it on memorial day last year or whatever. was excellent that

they did that. i think it shows that we had a good side. i think at least it helped the troops because the troops took it in the shorts. our troops did not smoke marijuana. we were in a bar wire entanglement with 23,000 men. and you did not get out of it except in our helicopters. we did not go to town. there was a village 10 miles away. there was nothing there. i am not saying that people did not do this in saigon and whatever, not picking on saigon. but we did not have the opportunity for that. we had good troops, good american soldiers. they were fighting men and i admire them very much. i think they took of him rep and i hope this helped -- bum wrap and i hope this helps show the public we had some tremendous show men on our side. host: ok.

one of years from now and some is watching this, listening to this. what do you want to tell them about the battle? what you wanted to tell them about the men there in yourself? -- and yourself? major freeman: i would hope somebody finds a solution other than war. but i don't believe they will. i will tell you a quick story about my grandson. he is my fishing buddy. and he is now a schoolteacher. he went to college on a scholarship and played baseball. when he was about nine years old we were going up the river fishing in my truck. out of the blue sky he says, grandpa, do they fight wars on weekends? i said yes. we drove around a couple more curves. he said grandpa, to they fight wars on holidays? i said yes. another few minutes he says

grandpa, do they fight wars at night? i said yes. you didn't say something -- nothing for quite some time. he said grandpa, why do they fight wars? warid just enough about that he knew i had been there but nothing else. i kept my military life, i tried to keep it or for my children. it was just a job. i wish i would've known what to say to him but i stumbled through something to the effect of difference of opinion of beliefs of two different governments and they don't agree on certain items. i said that the -- does not make it right. freeman, we are about out of time and i would thank you for participating in this. you are more major freeman: you are more than welcome.

>> you were watching american history tv. all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook. coming up next on american history tv harvard university phd candidate loop willert talks about 19 century detective force -- work in that west. we interviewed him at the western history associations annual conference in portland, oregon in october. this is about 20 minutes. when did you first decide to focus her studies on the law and the west? lert: i started graduate school studying colonial america. but i was in laramie, wyoming explained to lessen the early 19th century.