landmark cases, the book, features introductions, backgrounds, highlights and the impact of each case, written by tony morrow and published by c-span in cooperation with cq press, an imprint of sage publications incorporated. landmark cases is available for $8.25 plus shipping. get your stay at www.c-span.org /landmarkcases. announcer: next, a panel discussion on the people's temple. the community in guyana. a 1978, more than 900 people died in jonestown. the panel includes two former members of the people's temple. and two authors of a book on the subject. the california historical

society hosted this discussion. it is about an hour and a half. >> i want to welcome you all to the california historical society. we are deeply honored for our dear partners and friends. the san francisco public library, you cannot ask for better friends. this is part of the one city, one book extravaganza. it allows us to present this incredible panel today.

a special thanks to jim jones junior, who had hoped to be with us today. he was unable to participate due to health reasons. the california historical society is honored to hold the people's temple collection. it was chosen as the repository in 1983. we have worked with many survivors and many historians and students who want to learn about what happened in jonestown. we are proud to be the largest repository of these materials.

the digitization of super eight films. a broader collection of materials. we invite you all to research it. all of our panelists have taken advantage of this collection. preserving fbi files, photographs and other items. we invite you back to our library over my right shoulder. it is the portal to our remarkable collections. jamie henderson has laid out a number of pieces from the collection.

some of the letters that david used to write his book. you can hold history in your hands. i will introduce my colleagues. get the conversation going. we can take questions later. we are deeply honored that c-span is here. you will have found little pencils and blank cards so you can ask questions.

feel free to jot one down. part of our team will come and collect the cards. we can answer a lot of questions in good time. john cobb. he is one of the few surviving members of the people's temple. he was born into the temple. his family was part of that first pioneering effort who moved out from indianapolis to redwood valley in california.

he was a member until the group's tragic and in 1978. he was in georgetown with the basketball team. he lost 10 members of his family in jonestown. he is currently writing a book about his story. we are all wishing him well. to his left, marshall kilduff.

he walked over from the chronicle building on fifth admission. he has a long career of writing mostly for the chronicle but also a very powerful piece that was not accepted by the chronicle. he has given voice to politics and government, development, city affairs. as a native of san francisco, he went to palo alto. he can integrate depth of narrative. he co-authored suicide cult, history of peoples temple and jim jones. mr. talbot, author of the book. as the generations fade those who actively remember being here in that november of 1978. season of the witch is the book. by david talbot.

is being read widely this week. he was the founder and editor-in-chief of salon.com. he figured out the web long before anybody else. are you wearing your glasses? >> i have sensitive eyes. >> he has lovely eyes.

he created a whole new way to consume knowledge. after leaving salon, he increased his reputation as a historian. we are welcoming in him into the fraternity of historians. he just finished a book on the kennedy brothers. he has worked at mother jones and rights for the new yorker, rolling stone, and many other publications. eugene smith. he had just turned 21 years old prior to november 1978. he wrote, jonestown was the force that sealed me and

dictated my immediate future at that time. my only responsibility was to survive. there was no place to hide or disappear. smith lost his mother, his wife and his infant son that day. he has spent the rest of his life dedicated to remembering and persevering. he must bring us knowledge from the depths of his heart in his memory. he turned to writing. his recent articles include one for the jonestown report. he is also an work on a book.

please join me in welcoming them. [applause] i will ask david first to provide a brief historical context. share with us the time, as you so beautifully show us, after the summer of love and the rise of the counterculture. it helps us understand the rise of peoples temple and the reverend jones. talbot: my new book is about the dark history of the cia.

the context for people's temple is that you really have to look at what was going on in the city already. the social disruption and the redevelopment the tour at the heart of black san francisco. that was the seed in the garden for jim jones two establishes political roots in this town. he couldn't have done that if the fillmore had not been hollowed out by the san francisco redevelopment agency. it tore out the heart and soul of what was once known as the harlem of the west. a vibrant middle class black community.

my own son, joe talbot, is making a movie to continue that legacy. to this day, you have a defining -- a declining african-american population. it has been robbed of its portable power. -- political power. when jim jones came here from redwood valley, he was moving into a political vacuum. he became such a powerful force because he was a master of manipulating people. finding out what politicians weaknesses were. what his turn ons were at exploiting them. he delivered bodies and votes.

1975 was a key turning point. george moscone a narrowly won due to voter fraud. san francisco has to analyze what it did to the african-american community to allow that redevelopment or negro removal as james baldwin called it. >> i am often reminded of that wonderful james baldwin quote that american history is more beautiful and more terrible than anything written about it. the horrors of urban renewal. targeting the

japanese-americans. also the african-american communities. they had moved into some areas that had been held by japanese. an incredible cycle of displacement. in comes a man with great charisma and charm and power. i like to ask john and eugene to share some first-hand experiences. john: my experience is unique in that there are probably two or three other people that were born into peoples temple who are still living.

all of the things that i've read have been factual things. what has been missed was the day-to-day occurrence of peoples temple lives. several people made that temple function. it would have functioned perfectly without jones. toward the end he was just incapable of doing anything. how do people live? why were the people there?

it was not a mindless cult. many people i know who are still alive today are very successful. we were able to integrate back into society. because we were not that much different at all. a lot of people say was involved politically. that was the driving force. i look at the same things happening today. the things that people are looking for today, education, health care, housing, being able to put food on the table. once you became a member of the people's temple, you did not have to worry about that anymore. everyone wanted to make the world a better place. but those basic needs were provided for you. at some cost, yes.

i have talked to a person that i knew whose family was part of peoples temple for about 20 years. i saw her a couple of years ago. she said, johnny boy, i wish there was something like peoples temple today. kids today need that structure and purpose. there were a lot of terrible things that happened. but the reason why people were there was the functionality. it has really been missed. what has driven me to write is that the people who are no longer with us, their story has never been told. they died and were labeled as people who were casualties. some of the people didn't want to be there. i will expose a lot of that in my book. had they have the choice to leave, they would have. but there was so much more that

was missed to that whole story. the craziness of jim jones has been repeated endlessly. i feel that where we are in our people are our time, ready to hear what else happened there. what are the facts? that is what has driven me to write. i was born there. i had a different understanding of it. i saw it for what it really was behind the scenes. a lot of people came in and saw jim jones as a prophet, a world healer, whatever, i don't know, god. i never saw him as that. a lot of the things that he perpetrated that he could do, i knew from day one that he wasn't doing those. that's not why my family was

there. my mother wanted a better life for her kids. my father eventually followed us. there were other reasons for it. basically, that is my story. it would be a lot different from what is out there so far. >> i would love to come back to some of those stories about the day-to-day life in peoples temple. we believe that we were all created equal. eugene: i came into the temple when i was 15. in detroit we were part of aretha franklin's father's church.

we have been catholic, we had been baptists, we had been nondenominational. every six months, it was a new religion. i revolted around 12 or 13 and i said i'm done with this. she had heard about jim jones. i went to hear him speak at irwin junior high in fresno. i didn't really come back and i was 18. -- i didn't really come back until i was 18. then i moved into a commune in san francisco. i stayed behind stage initially. for me the temple was a candy store in the sense that there were no limits on what i could do. there was no limit to happiness. no end to my learning.

in seventh grade i was already reading at a 12th grade level. so coming into the people's temple at 18, them having a printing press, having a woodshop. having a construction crew. it all seemed normal. what made it seem so normal is that you can see this county at a meeting or willie brown would have a meeting or jane fonda. something about this has to be real. so you assumed. what happens after a period of time is that jim jones became background noise. what you felt responsible for were the other people there. the other people there were your family. people stay because they didn't want to leave their family there alone. they didn't want them to be

abused or possibly hurt. or interrogated because you left. some people stayed out of guilt, some people stayed out of responsibility. some people stayed out of love for other human beings that they had no blood relationship with what they felt entitled to protect them and be at their call, so to speak. we never called old people old people. we called them seniors. they were the repository of knowledge. when an elder person spoke, you are expected to listen. if they needed assistance, you are expected to assist. they passed on their knowledge to us. and we passed our knowledge to the younger ones. jonestown was a little bit different. getting there was an adventure. being there was an adventure. a lot of times, you were working .n adrenaline

there was a certain urgency to it. you are being awakened out of a dead sleep and running to the pavilion. were they under attack? were they going to take the children? were they going to bomb us off the map as if it never happened. even if you knew that, there was a certain fright. night, we were going through all these potholes. these potholes which is huge. you could not see the jungle. it was only 20 yards on each side of you. you only see what was in front of you. you could hear the pavilion miles away. people yelling and screaming. it was very close to venezuela. it was a disputed area between venezuela and guyana. by having a rigell -- a

religious community there, it justified guyana seizing that particular property. jumping off the trailer and going to the pavilion. same people you had not seen for years or seen people you thought had left but hadn't, seeing my wife who was just weeks away from delivering a baby i not see my mother in over two years getting there and acclimating was easy. staying there was difficult. >> marshall, you started work in 1976.

a reporter for the chronicle. investigating the peoples temple church. wanting to write about it for the chronicle but not accepted. how close the chronicle editorial leadership was to jim jones. publishing his article. marshall: if you are trying to get me fired, you are doing a very good job. [laughter] a quick note of contrast between these idyllic and full enclosed life in the church and the way it looked to uri or at least to a reporter was nothing like that. hostile, verys

enclosed, didn't want to deal with the world except on its own strict and structured terms. it went everywhere on its own. about -- thelks totally homegrown or unopened organization. it was especially true if you worry -- were a reporter. can i look your temple? can i meet your people? very difficult to be a historian. very circumscribed and bounded world. the chronicle, the church's

-- they flattered the hell out of my boss. a new guy on the job would want to know that and be accepted. when i went to the church, they sat me in the front row right next to my boss. it was very clear that the temple was in charge of the deal and don't worry about it. the aspects of the church that were very troubling. your life was really not your own. they broke up families. your money got turned over. if you are a woman, you are at a special disadvantage, to put it delicately. it was not always as idealistic as you may hear.

as this came out, the church ran away. they went to guiana because their time was up in san francisco. the politicians so what they wanted and they took what they wanted. then when the whole thing fell apart, you can't blame me. david gets into this big time in the book. it is a whole other side of the story. this forgetfulness and choosing what you want to remember. that is one of the worst parts about this experienced. there is no memorial in san francisco to this thing. when the bodies were brought back, those that were not claimed are now in a corner of the oakland cemetery. what could be more distant, kind of disembodied, pulled away from

the story than that? a lot of political figures are still hard at it. there are a lot of names that have gone through this story. in my mind, they have not accounted for it, to put it politely. the story continues to have fingers into the present. san francisco is in a lot of --mble a lot of tumult right now. the dollar signs are bigger. could something like this happen again? could someday show up with an answer? claims of future good things. taken at face value but never examined.

that is where i look for this story. the peoples temple itself, it is now u.s. post office. it was a big, federal kind of story. the only congressman ever killed in the line of duty was leo ryan and jonestown. this stuff is still buzzing around in many different forms. that is my story. >> thank you all for that description. we will continue our conversation up here a little bit more and then take questions. i am struck by this remarkable confluence of issues like

slavery and poverty coming out of the powerful, tumultuous time of 1948 to 1978. two years in california time is about 20 years somewhere else. the social changes that all of you lived through. it's manifest here on the tip of his peninsula. why someone like harvey milk or george moscone.

coming from a very progressive tradition. and milk's fighting tooth and nail, for a role in the governance in the city. all of this took place at the same time culminating in an opening for someone like jones to move in. what i am loving up the conversation so far. is about the yearning for community from dislocated people. eugene, i was struck by what you said. it was a candy store. you had a library, a pending press, food. i think some of those basic needs, and, john, in terms of what you said, wouldn't it a nice if kids growing up in the

mission or really anywhere in the bay area didn't have to worry about those things? so in terms of how the peoples temple encompasses all those stories, the very personal as well as the very political is at the heart of what we are trying to present to people today. john, i'd like to come back to you in terms of the missing stories. they made their own community within those spaces, whether it was here or up in the redwoods or down and down in guyana.

john: a week in redwood valley. i am probably 13 years old. i saw jim jones, i didn't see him as a father. i just saw him as a man. we were a family. two of my sons married to his daughters. i saw him behind the scenes a lot of times. i wasn't apprehensive about him. i talked to him on a daily basis. i was acclimated to it to where it was my lifestyle. a good friend of mine lives in atlanta. he grew up watching us. he joined the temple when he was

12 years old. he was a foster kid who came to redwood valley. he said, john, a lot of people for you guys were treated special. you guys were held in such a high regard. we were talking about our schedule. monday morning started off very strictly. go to school, door things as a regular student. i was a three-star sports star. i had practice after school. come back on do more work and monday. probably hang out with jimmy. tuesdays, same thing. go to the church. study. see the teachers or whoever was there. we were very well educated. on wednesday night we had meetings. we had temple meetings that lasted, oh, god, late. after school on thursday.

thursday night games. friday we would play games. games, we were not supposed to go to these games all the times, but our parents made sure we had that experience. get on the bus in redwood valley and come to san francisco. have a meeting friday night in san francisco. after the meeting friday night in san francisco get back on the , bus go to los angeles. saturday morning, we all get off the bus. play some basketball. get something to eat. services saturday, all night saturday with our friends in l.a. get back on that bus and get back to redwood valley. about 3:00 in the morning on monday morning. that was our life. that is all i knew. it was normal to me.

it served me well as a got older. very disciplined but was also fun. you would not being beaten to do it. you doing it with hundreds of people your own age. they were your friends. so everything that you did was fun. it was fun to go to san francisco and los angeles. see all these places. it is what we did. at the same time, it kept us out of trouble. we saw a different lifestyle. some people thought we were being programmed and eat down at the same time. not one on one per se. he had his indoctrination and meetings and whatnot. i'm sure a lot of people were believing that and listening to it. but we were not there for that reason. we were there for a purpose for our families. trying to make a better world. we didn't see color. and we treated other people that

way. we had friends outside of peoples temple. surprisingly, i am still friends with them now. until i got older, i didn't see what the other people were experiencing. all these other negatives are documented in many of these books. i'm not trying to retell the story. i'm trying to tell a whole different story about what life was like in the sample. -- in the temple day-to-day. >> it was one of many communal experiments. cesar chavez had his own commune. it was increasingly insular. increasingly paranoid.

he had his own white night versions that were different. a lot of the people who went through social justice movements in the 60's wound up in this fortress of people sample. -- of peoples temple. many increasingly saw in many movements. california has an amazing history of communal and social experiments. john: you were not privy to a lot of things unless you a member, but once you became a member they would open up to you. i had friends who would come and visit on sunday. they would come and visit on their own.

conduit.ad you as a it wasn't like you had to be a member to get in. wanted -- if you were a reported at -- if you were a reporter and wanted to get a story, that was a different thing. if you just wanted to walk in off the street and come to a service, you could do it. david: when you hear about other religious groups and movements, do you ever wince? does it seem not lesson that you need to learn to talk about? my concern is that so much of this is repeatable. by talking about it and writing about it, does that give people

more awareness of their world? john: when people have their minds made up, they are going to believe it. that is just people. that is instinct. david: so much for journalism. john: you will have to grab and find things out for themselves. i would say that any group, for , when theythere start saying you can't do this or you can't do that, that is where flags go up or it there. if you don't have the right to go to a traditional type group, go on sunday if you want, laying down all of these rules you have to abide, that is no longer a church. they take your life away. that crosses a line. and that is one of the problems. eugene: it is complicated because the temple had a lot of

facets. i had just graduated from high school when i moved to san francisco. my day was a lot different. my day started at 5 a.m. i was on a construction crew, in fact i was in charge of the construction crew. in san francisco, we would be building crates to send equipment over to guyana. if you can imagine the materials for 1000 people, it was phenomenal. when i was on construction los angeles it was completely different. we were either refurbishing the homes are remodeling homes.

-- we were refurbishing homes donated by members. they were literally hundreds of homes. on the jobsite by 6:00 a.m. if there was a meeting in san francisco, we would leave friday night to be in san francisco by saturday morning. we do not work on saturdays. we didn't work on sunday. but coming back to get to los angeles, we would leave san francisco at 9:00 on sunday nights. get back to l.a. that morning. get directly into your work clothes and go to work. it was a very involved environment. a very pushed environment. in terms of people coming freely, that happened on occasion but a lot of times they were stopped at the door. i know this because i worked on security at one time as well.

wednesday nights were always for members only. those nights will be different from the other nights. saturday nights was open services. people were invited to come. and you would be searched. sometimes, a person might be assigned to you to see what you are about. who brought you. who would vouch for you. if you always a line. it might not be the line you i'm not sayingt that i agree with that or that i think is right. the other thing was, when new members came, i was observed for a long time.

i was called to the third floor and told you are not to be running through all those girlfriends. you're going to work for the cause. you are going to be a socialist. my life to change our ways. what i did keep was perseverance and focus. , i will alwayso be associated with jonestown and the people's temple and jim jones. the burden for me is always to set an example, all the time. coming back to the u.s. was just

horrendous. we were on the news, we were in the newspapers and magazines. we were all considered crazy. that wasn't the case. people's temple did not attract ignorant people. it just did not. >> obviously eugene and john know many more people than i do. but the people i interviewed were incredibly bright, they were politically sophisticated. for me, it was very enlightening. i was very politically active in the prisoners right movement. soledad brother, working with the black panthers. i understood that power of

working together. having a political vision and working together and wanting to change so much that was wrong in american society. as certain point, this visionary movement, we were losing our leaders, they were being assassinated. the war in vietnam kept grinding on. the racial situation in our cities was getting worse there was a poison in the atmosphere. that is the way it felt to me at the time. we lost to martin luther king, bobby kennedy, john kennedy, malcolm x.. there was a yearning for a new leader to take control.

there were a lot of people who size him up as a charlatan right away. if you read his correspondence, and one point he is endorsing nixon. when he came to san francisco he was courting liberals. i don't think most of the people in his movement were cynical. i think you were responding to real needs. it does feel very warm and embracing. it is taking care of the basic human needs. the basic human needs that society should take care of. to this day, our society does not take care of these needs. so i totally understand what the attraction was. being in environments that took care of basic needs. that there was a corruption that set in at the top. whether jim was getting into drugs too much. he saw the drugs becoming a bigger and bigger influence on

his father. by the time he got here to san francisco, there was a bubble mentality. a fortress mentality. there were gay activists to work closely with harvey milk. harvey was cynically using jim jones to get those votes. he said go pick up those posters but don't talk to anyone because they take everything you say. at the same time, their letters right here in the files of harvey milk later when people's temple went to guyana, is writing to joseph califano, calling it a beautiful retirement community. the politicians were taking advantage of what jim jones could deliver. jim jones was delivering all sorts of things.

he was delivering women to george moscone. he knew what the mayor's tastes were in women. everyone was implicated, willie brown, dianne feinstein. we have to separate what the dream was and how it did take care of people but also be honest about the corruption that did set in their. >> i'm sure you have documented this very well in your book. it has been documented over and over again. he would use whatever platform he needed, he could tell you what you wanted to feel and believe.

i am not trying to take away from that. i am getting older. at one time i was one of the youngest surviving members. now i am 55 years old. i just felt there was a side of the story that people did not research. who cares about what happened to day-to-day?

how did the people interact? jim jones, hands were as soft as a babies. things got accomplished in that group. it was very well named, the people's temple. sons and i were his personal aides. he was very drugged out. when they told him never again leave jonestown, his life was over. i said to them, jim, you can't even go to georgetown anymore.

once you leave this commune you will be arrested. you had to hold him when he walks. he was out of sight sometimes. when he came in to talk, people would say what the hell are you talking about. there was nothing to talk about. there was no more need for faith feelings, no more needs for offerings. no more need for trips. no more need for him to grandstand. we had crops to plant and cattle to herd, irrigation that we needed. for the first few months we had

no power. then a generator came and we had power. in the jungle there were no lights. you couldn't see her hand in front of your face. if all these amazing things are happening, who was doing it? not him. not to take anything away from the story of jim jones. i would never take anything from that. but there is also a whole other side of this story the people that made this thing transpire. they could have succeeded very well. some of us discussed that. we almost got to it at one point.

it got that serious. had that whole thing is able to go on, my own sister told me personally that she didn't want to be there anymore. she wanted to stay within the organization. but she wants to do it in the united states. david: may i ask a question? i listened to that final fbi tape. it is chilling. i shudder thinking about it. there is an amazing woman, christine miller, who stands up to them at one point. she is the one woman who confronts sam and says, let us not do what you are about to do. and one point, she seems to have people coming to her side.

she is such a forceful and passionate woman. but someone stands up and starts to shame her. she loses her momentum at that point. the power shifts back to jim jones. it is one of those what-ifs that you have to think about. what if she had been able to persuade the crowd? why do you think more people in the crowd that night did not respond to her pleas? eugene: any young man that would've stood up and supported her would've been gone. the basketball team was gone. they were ready in georgetown doing importing. and but it would've been any challenge to him publicly would've been gone. there was no one there to take

up the mantle. there were meetings before that. in july and august, other members challenged jones. that was the last meeting. anyone that could challenge them are been able to control him, they were gone by then. john: i know the timing for congressman ryan and that group was done. they should have been allowed access at any time they wanted. the people that would've stood up to jim jones were not there. we will carry that for the rest of our lives. stephanie, my niece, the only reason she is alive. people left there all the time.

people weren't just kept in there like a concentration camp. that particular time, i had never heard that place that quiet. you could hear a pin drop. everyone stopped working. all 900 people came to that meeting. we were going to play basketball. my sister said to me, take stephanie. i would feel better with her being out of here. stephanie is alive today because of that. she has a beautiful daughter. she is alive because of that decision. there were one of two of us who would leave. they didn't like being in jonestown.

anyone who would have stood up to jim jones, that other people felt safe with, they were all gone. >> people came in to say goodbye to you because they did have a premonition? >> i think they just felt like who is going to handle jim jones now? they saw us oppose him. stephen, we know you're right. we would be the mediators. even when he asked us to come back, we told him no. why should we have to come back.

i don't know if anyone has read about this, but at the time this all happened, tim jones and myself went to the police dated. -- the police station. he said, we heard that could have been shots fired. we said, get us the right away. like i said, christine stood up. a lot of people think that there was mass suicide, murders. a lot of people have such a devotion to each other. a lot of the kids sat together in a nursery. if one of your kids died, a lot of people weren't going to leave their family there. were some people forced to die? probably. but i think more people did because once you see your loved ones, you are not going to walk away and leave them. i know for a fact, one of the people who got away, she was like my sister. she told my sister, we're getting out of here. >> eugene and then we'll get to of those great questions. >> when they said they were going to the jungle -- understand, this was a triple

canopy jungle. in the daytime, it was dark. there were poison frogs. anything that was brightly colored was probably poisonous. it was all kinds of species of ants. going into that jungle at night, if you are running there for safety, imagine what you had to be scared of. this jungle was not friendly in the daytime. and if you didn't have a full moon even when you came into the opening you couldn't see anything. >> a series of really interesting questions i want to telescope out a little bit. perhaps for marshall and david but as well for john and eugene. to what degree did the average san franciscan know of the experience of the people's temple, and in what ways? >> if you buy david's book -- >> it will be for sale and he will sign those. >> how would it be done appropriately, fairly?

there is an awareness but what really happened, how did it work out? today i heard of the radio, 35th anniversary of dan white suicide. if you are running there for safety, imagine what you had to be scared of. this jungle was not friendly in the daytime. and if you didn't have a full moon even when you came into the opening you couldn't see anything. >> a series of really interesting questions i want to telescope out a little bit. perhaps for marshall and david but as well for john and eugene. to what degree did the average san franciscan know of the experience of the people's

temple, and in what ways? >> if you buy david's book -- >> it will be for sale and he will sign those. >> how would it be done appropriately, fairly? there is an awareness but what really happened, how did it work out? today i heard of the radio, 35th anniversary of dan white suicide. moving back to the original recently are here, i don't believe there is much consciousness about something as meaningful as this. bad news is not something you want to go back over. it is not like you have a world war ii. it is not some occasion that marks a dark chapters and. as you can tell, it is a very complex thing.

what was going on with the time, what do we feel about those times now? >> take us back to those years, the average san franciscan of that time, what do you think they knew? >> i think they were pretty confused. there may be some awareness that it was a political force, especially in city hall's. he was on the housing authority, came to meetings. a couple of buses would pull up, he would show up, there would be enormous thunderous clapping for approval of the minutes. this guy ran the show. there were news stories towards 1977, 1978 towards his

influence, questions about his background. people, even his allies, knew there was something off about the guy in terms of how they dealt with in. milk was a big fan publicly, but i'm not sure he knew better. there were others walking the landscape now took part in it, too. kind of saw the dark side and went along with it. >> one of our questions is that the chronicle wasn't doing its job. marshall is the best person to testify. he finally found a way to get that story out. the city editor, because he was compromised by jones, was basically spiking the stories.

people were being compromised. people in politics and in media. today, the city is going through its own great agony now of addiction and displacement. i still don't think we have the information that we need to have in this city, the political leadership that is really addressing those issues. finally, i want to say that there was this sheek syndrome at the time. people have their own stories to tell which is always interesting. this woman told me that her mom

was a crazy liberal, a free spirit, and she took me as a little girl to people's temple meetings. i think in those circles, jim jones and the people's temple seemed really cool. it was integrated, it was progressive, they had great music, i'm sure a lot of the church services were wonderful experiences. if you weren't a reporter snooping around -- a lot of people felt welcome there and felt this was part of something that they wanted to be part of. >> a professor of history at usf, you get a speech over at uc berkeley, and he said in the 60's or 70's, if you are black in america, the people's temple was really the best place for you to be. i'm sorry, that was you. i agree with you. as far as the opportunity that it offered. jimmy and i, when we came back in 1978, 1979, and we bumped

into willie brown at the fillmore. he takes off his mercedes and he is gone. >> he didn't apologize at all about it. >> one of the questions from the audience is what more can be done to bring accountability to political figures like the brothers brown. one of the questions from the audience was, what more can be done to bring accountability to political figures? >> everyone has heard the word untouchable. these people have been in these positions for three decades. it would be difficult if not impossible to make them feel any

remorse or responsibility for what they did 30 years ago. i have to say, any person who thinks the same way they thought 30 years ago is not growing up. a player are not the same person they were or support the same things they supported 30 years ago. another thing is that people's temple did not attract ignorant people. in terms of finding things on people or compromising politicians, there were people that came in and joined the temple that knew how to do that. there were people who are gifted at whatever they were gifted that and those tools were used. >> there is what in particular about the doctrine in particular. i think if you have gotten

enough of the flavor of this commitment to social justice and providing needs and to having the socialist aspect was huge. this was a long, continuous, interesting train which i think john picked up, as well as the leadership in the church picked up on, a very rich tradition in black churches as well as progressive churches of the united states. it was a really potent stew of those spiritual but also very liberal and progressive's. the questions i think are interesting, one wants to know how much was religion part of a daily existence.

others were how the people's temple experience thinking through and after jonestown in november of 78. had a change religion in san francisco. there is a number of questions about religion. did it change religion in san francisco while it was happening and in the aftermath, and then a little bit about religion and the life of the church. >> depended on when you joined people's temple. if you joined in the late 60's, early 70's, it was a religious base. fundamentalism with healing. if you joined from 1972-1975, it was a social movement. if you joined between 1975 and the end day, it was about getting away from this racist,

oppressive system, this capitalism gone wild. depending on when you came into the temple dictated how you responded or what you heard and didn't hear. if you came in with a fundamentalist belief that healers heal, that is what you stuck with because that is what drew you. if it was about political causes when you came in, that is what you heard, that is what kept you there. that is all you heard and you dealt with that. you didn't hear any of this other stuff because it was all background noise. you knew why you were there. >> once he saw his power grow and how much he could get away with, his indoctrination changed.

i would hear him at home preparing what he would say day today. it would go from talking about religion to social issues. it changed fast. >> marshall and david, in terms of how people's temple changed the face of religion, the practice of religion, do you have any thoughts on that? you chronicled the demise of the iris cap machine and the clashes that brought. >> i think one of the interesting things was the relationship between jim jones and the other african-american pastors and ministers in the area. i think eugene and john can probably talk much more informed about this than i am, but i did find out some interesting stories about the tensions.

it seemed to me on the one hand, the people's temple was delivering more than the african-american churches that had been there for some time in some ways. that is one reason why people's temple was able to make roots in this wounded community. there was more energy there, people's temple was more mobilized politically, there was more a sense that they can do something for you. there was a resentment on the part of other african-american churches and there was this upstart and just moved in. he is white. that was weird, wasn't it, i think for a lot of the african-american leadership? they became compromise later on as well. >> there was a resentment, a new

guy in town. there was some recruiting, some enlarging of the flock that he needed to do here. he would pay bills at other churches, he would flatter them with letters and calls. taking 10-20 all ladies back to his church when he could. it was a very skillful marketing job and he was very tough-minded about this. as far as the exposure of the church, the endgame diminishing the role of religion and san francisco, that is a big topic. i would hesitate to play reverend here and know what

long-term affect the people's temple had on religious life in san francisco. i would like to think not a lot just because of the downbeat kind of history we are citing here. but i'm sure it made a lot of people cynical and doubtful about religious leaders for a while. >> we are to give you the last word. some questions i didn't get to, i'm sorry. i want to re-welcome you back to your library, the toys made from the workshop, the reverend jones robe is out. some powerful artifacts. >> i think the issue is this. you have a white man coming to town.

he is bringing 70 to 100 people per bus. all the kids climbed up top. nine 100 people on those buses at any one time. he is getting accommodations. he is having conversations that people always wanted and could not get. he is cutting deals when i asked for the same deal and couldn't get it. this guy over here, jim jones, is not only poaching their members but he is giving them a reason to leave. the end play is, not only did he

poach them, not only did he get accommodations, but that he is on the housing commission, which is a powerful position in san francisco. >> a lot of patronage. >> i think back and i started going to college, i was kind of like, i don't want to talk about it. somebody many kids that i met my age, 50% at least knew all about the church. in the bay area it was like some young people about it and their parents wanted them there. the article came out and it was a good article. it was funny because i was like, what article? all i heard was your name. i was like oh, this article. >> i want to thank all of you in the audience and my four amazing panelists, delving into the subject that i think is noble work that the california historical society is honored to do. there is no one simple, easy answer. but between and among these four

amazing souls, i think we have had a pretty amazing time. thank all of you for coming. [applause] we will adjourn. talk amongst yourselves, talk to us, by david's book. members of the historical society, if you buy it tonight, just for you -- 20% off special tonight. if you're not a member, my staff can totally take care of you. thanks from all of us and good night. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015]

>> come into this house and there is so much to do, so much coming at you that there is no time to think or reflect. >> we are here digging up soil because we are about to plant a garden. >> i will not be satisfied nor will my husband until every single veteran who wants a job has one. at the end of the day, my most important title is still mom in chief. [applause] in 2000 eight, michelle obama became the first african-american first lady when her husband, barack obama, was elected our 44th president. her focus has been on current social issues such as poverty, education, and healthy living. addressing childhood obesity. michelle obama, tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's

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america opens her heart for those who long for life and and the pursuit of happiness. ♪ >> she was such an authentic person. i always thought there was more to the story than anyone had uncovered, certainly than i had written about. she became the first modern first lady. project,ff, important and she wrote her book as soon issue she left the white house. modernlly invented the first lady. >> tonight, historian betty discussed her book, first ladies, giving an inside look at the marriage and political

partnership of lady bird and lyndon johnson. >> lady bird johnson is an important -- a perfect example of the inclusion, those women saw something in those men, the toition, the opportunity really climb and make a mark in the world and they married in spite of objective -- objection. she is a good example of that. that is why i decided i had to find out more about her. >> each week until the 2016 presidential election, american history tv brings you archival coverage. next, on "road to the white house rewind" we look back to the 1988 campaign and republican donald rumsfeld discussing his presidential aspirations at a meeting of the eastern states sign council. mr. rumsfeld dropped out of the 88 presidential race about three weeks after this event. [applause]