the flyby of mars. ont before 9:00, rick burns how the public learns about history through film and television. american history tv, all weekend and on holidays too, only on c-span3. takes you on the road to the white house and into the classroom. this year our student cam documentary contest asks students to tell us what issues they want to hear from the presidential candidates. follow c-span's road to the white house coverage and get all the details about our student cam contest at www.c-span.org. >> coming up next on "the presidency," author catherine clinton chronicles the changing historical narrative about president lincoln's wife, mary. how mary would have been remembered if she died instead of her husband. also, why some of her critics

have labeled her is crazy. this is an hour and 10 minutes. honor andt only an privilege to introduce tonight's speaker, it is for me a personal delight because she and i were classmates in princeton's graduate history program many years ago. is the endowedon professor in american history at the university of texas at san antonio, and she's also one of the country's most distinguished historians of american women, the south, and the civil war. she's a proud daughter of kansas city, missouri, and she studied as an undergraduate, harvard, studied american history, and went for her phd at princeton, completing her dissertation on james mcpherson. her dissertation would be published in 1982 as the book

"the plantation mistress, women's world in the old south"" her first work to be characterized justly as pioneering. the book forces us to rethink ite of our basic assumptions permanently alters our understanding of the old south and women's place in by my count, some 17 additional books, and several of which -- of history books

course, she has published, "mrs. lincoln," which is available for signing after the lecture. this volume is an engaging, wonderfully written narrative that provides fresh insight into this complex woman. it is a triumph. according to pulitzer prize-winning historian joseph ellis, the biography is "distinctive for its abiding sanity. it's daft and in-depth handling of the white house years and for the consistent quality of prose." along the way, she has also written several history books for children and she has worked as a consultant on two academy award-winning movies. "12 years a slave" and steven spielberg's "lincoln."

she's been at commentator for documentaries. her lectures are often broadcast on bbc and c-span. before coming to utsa she taught at harvard, brandeis, the citadel, wesleyan, and queens university. belfast, northern ireland. finally, not long ago, she was elected by her peers and is now serving as president of the southern historical association. a richly deserved capstone recognition for her career achievements in her field of endeavors. so far. please give a warm welcome to professor catherine clinton. [applause] prof. clinton: i am worn out after hearing all of these things.

thank you, tom, for that very warm introduction. i'm very pleased to return to the smu campus where i have enjoyed my visit before. now that i am a texan, it is even easier to make my way here. thank you for making me feel some welcome. i am pleased to talk about a topic, mary lincoln's assassination. americans are nationally focused americans are naturally focused on remembering the legacy of the fallen leader. american historians called to fuel the insatiable hunger for new books on lincoln. but at this moment in lincoln's leg is the it might behoove us to look at the impact of lincoln's death 150 years ago and another key player in the civil war white house, mary lincoln.

not trying to seek equality, parity, or any other false construct for mrs. lincoln as a historical figure, but i do think a more judicious appreciation of her role in lincoln's life and legacy would be served by examining what i call a 3d approach. the three dimensions i recommend are, one, the experience of merry lincoln on the night of april 14, 1865, and subsequent trauma. two, the scrutiny and vitriol endured by lincoln's wife, particularly while in the white house, and carving out a place for herself as first widow. three, the character assassination. i hope to we've all these elements together to create a more three-dimensional look at her legacy. 16thull dimension of the

president's death are well chronicled trade -- chronicled. mary's side of the story remains relatively underexplored. although in new play, the widow this year.miere mary lincoln had influence over mostln's legacy, particularly his association with black rights as the martyr president gunned down by an opponent of the black vote. after11, 1865, two days lee surrendered to grant, lincoln addressed a gathering ground outside the white house balcony. lincoln knew that reconciliation between former enemies would be challenging, but he discussed the need for cooperation and mentioned the possibility of black veterans voting. lincoln ended his speech by suggesting there would be further developments, and historian vernon burton has

suggested, one man in the audience understood perfectly what lincoln intimated. john wilkes booth told his companions it meant black citizenship, and confided, now, by god, i'll put him through. that's the last speech he will ever make. recent scholarship has confirmed that lincoln's assassination was at a minimum politically motivated, and at a maximum a hate crime that elevated him to our first civil rights martyr. as burton reminds us, lincoln is part of a long list of martyrs who died for black voting rights. each -- these misguided attends to rouse the misguided south to carry on the revolutionary rebellion backfired, when his murder of the president on good

friday took on religious dimensions and mourners across the world from black easter forward linked his death to that of jesus. a mary lincoln it was terrible fulfillment of a premonition which had haunted her for years. it was the event which divided her life into before and after, a wound which would not heal. how did she experienced the death of her husband, something which nearly half a million wives had suffered in the past half decade? not well. indeed, extremely poorly. once this initial period of grief that signals that she would endure a loss of her protector as well as comfort and joy. lincoln and his wife had arrived late at ford theater on the 14, 1865.riday, april their entrance interrupted the action on stage, as the man struck up "hail to the chief," and lincoln and his guests

settled into seats in the presidential box. celebrated actress laura keene was playing a starring role in "our american cousin." presence turned the occasion into an exuberant, patriotic occasion. lincoln was a devoted theatergoer. mrs. lincoln was particularly relieved because her son robert had just returned home from active duty. she and her husband had fought bitterly over his enlistment, but harmony was restored with his safe return. lincoln had written his wife a playful note that day to invite .er on a drive their talk in the carriage outing was full of cheer, a quality that had too often

eluded them in the previous four years. the president's courtly attentiveness enhanced mrs. lincoln's romantic mood. while watching the play, she had been clinging to her husband's arm and teased him about what our guests -- about what her gue sts would think of her. she won't think anything about it, he said. those were his last words. john wilkes booth fired his pistol directly into the back of president lincoln's head. next he attacked germany knife.e -- with a booth hurt his leg in the fall from the box. everything went out of focus for

mary except for her husband's head, slumped forward on his chest. witnesses all agree that mrs. lincoln's screams alerted the audience. watching a doctor unable to find her husband's pulse, a doctor attempting mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, followed by lincoln's revived breathing, proved traumatizing, especially to his wife. during the ghastly scenes which unfolded, mary wondered aloud, why it was not she who was shot. this is actually prompted me to look at a counterfactual issue and an article entitled "wife versus widow." i would have history judged mary -- how would have history judged mary if it had been her who would have been shot instead of

lincoln? as attendance warmed his limbs, changed his dressing, all except mary recognize that the end was near. secretary of war edwin stanton took -- took charge, trying to organize an unprecedented manhunt two apprehend the assassin. the national park service preservation of the peterson home allows visitors today to reimagine lincoln's last hour as they enter the cramped bedroom at the rear of the house. many portraits included mrs. lincoln kneeling or sitting by the bed during lincoln's final moments. the truth was that she had been banished from the room. she wanted to remain by her husband's side but when she began to sob hysterically, she

was taken to a nearby parlor. mrs. lincoln realize that her husband was not getting any better, but worse. she collapsed to the floor in a faint. edwin stanton barked, take that woman out. do not let her in again. the deathbed of a loved one involved the most hallowed of 19th century rituals. mary's ancestors were scotch irish. attendingan america, a dying husband was a wife's most sacred duty and obligation, to present to her memory his final moments, to be there at the very end. everyone crowded in that room that night knew a wife's privilege. when lincoln's breathing became haunting and labored around 7:00 a.m., no one summoned mary. instead, the reverend suggested [indiscernible]

encircled their beloved leader. at 7:22 a.m., abraham lincoln was pronounced dead. stanton uttered his famous tribute, now he belongs to the ages. forgot in other words of mary lincoln, the wife kept -- the words of mary lincoln, the wife kept from her husband. she cried, oh why did you not tell me he was dying? her cry should be -- her cry could be heard outside the house. abraham lincoln was gone. it was in that moment the circle of men surrounding lincoln, expelling his wife from his dying bedside, that mary's the trailed again. she became an exile within her own historical experience. with her husband's death, mary was cast adrift, only able to imagine assuming her rightful place alongside her husband.

mary did not want to leave her husband, so she stayed on at the peterson home another two hours. abraham lycan' tatian soared -- abraham lincoln's reputation soared. his wife's reputation has tumbled into a deeper decline. the more a mortal he -- moretal he becomes, the [indiscernible] she becomes. she dedicated herself to keeping his legend burnished, his halo polished, but simultaneously she entered a series of crippling humiliations and losses. contemporary and scholars alike debate the relationship between lincoln and his wife, perhaps no

other occupants of the white house have endured such media attention until the kennedy white house of the 1960's, and the media industrial complex which followed. even this has been surpassed by the storms of speculation that engulfed the 42nd presidency, that of william jefferson clinton and his wife hillary, as a scholar of mary lincoln i am irregularly called by the press to ask, did mary lincoln ever throw a lamp at president lincoln, and other keen historical insights i'm not able to answer, but nevertheless, it's important to see that mary lincoln's relationship with her husband continues to fascinate and perplexed people. the questions would follow, did he love her first? did he love her best? did he love her at all?

did she nag and abuse him and give him no peace? was she a partner only for proprietary's sake? was lincoln's desire for male companionship purely spiritual, or was there a physical component? claims and counterclaims continue to shake, rattle, and roll lincoln scholarship. as we try to examine the facts of the lincoln courtship, naturally disputes iraq. i'm happy to answer any questions about this. it's a rather intricate and hotly contested -- i would .uggest nevertheless fate,o intertwined their allowing the currents to stir within them and they flowed together forward. mary was her husband's sounding board for every speech. she was deeply partisan, blindly loyal.

advice would flow freely as they read the papers allowed to one another daily. mary believed she had married a diamond in the rough and she spent a good deal of her energy polishing that dimon. in 1950 -- in 1858, lincoln confided to a journalist that his wife had insisted that he would eventually be president of the united states. even marries critics gave her credit for playing a crucial role in the rise of lincoln and political fortunes in the 1850's. the polish ligon had acquired may be credited to the influence of his wife.

yet her husband's elections put her under the microscope, as press coverage became relentless during the winter of 1860. those who wish to set a house on fire began with the thatch. the first lady became an easy target for the lincoln presidency. she felt herself in a fishbowl. one journalist recalled, she drives down pennsylvania avenue, the electric wire travels the news to every hamlet in the nation. when the lincolns arrived at the white house, area lane, president james buchanan's niece iste cattily, mrs. lincoln awfully western, loud, unrefined. journalist william howard russell found the attendance was very scanty. the washington ladies have not yet made up their mind, is mrs. lincoln going to be the fashion? they miss their southern friends and draw comparisons between them and the vulgar yankee women who are now in power.

some of the earliest press reports portray mary as incapable of measuring up to refined eastern standards, and mrs. lincoln was quite offended by these cold shoulders and very intent upon proving her critics wrong. the first lady believed the white house should be a shining symbol of a great nation, especially when peril abounded. the executive mansion was shabby. her springfield relations came and complained it was no better than a second-rate hotel. congress had approved $20,000 for white house refurbishing. it was considerably less than appropriated to andrew johnson's family, who would next come in. mary lincoln sought the advice of the commissioner of building for the district. woo wood was a former hotel and tour

operator. he had been drafted to assist the lincolns. he wheedled for permanent appointments. he peddled his influence. he pocketed kickbacks. in may, 1861, when particularly outraged new york reporter voiced disdain. she say thousands and thousands of dollars for articles of luxurious taste. her kinswoman who accompanied her on this trip was adamant in her cousin's defense. 1/100 ofnot indulge in the extravagance with which we were credited. suffering troops were new colors named after european battles, and she designated this with the seal of the u.s. on each piece. presidential china was nothing new. this was the very same pattern i saw that was selected by first

lady michelle obama at the inauguration luncheon for her husband in january 2009. what is remembered as neither mrs. lincoln's taste nor patriotism, but that she ordered a second set at a cost of $1100 emblazoned with her own initials. grimsley insisted this was not paid for by the district commissioner, as was most unkindly charged. lincoln's rival, the secretary of treasury, fueled rumors about mary's extravagance and i natural irregularities. he regaled his daughter with tales of mrs. lincoln's avarice, her overspending, scandalous reports about mrs. lincoln, and lincoln himself emanated from the treasury department. newspapers full of allegations fueled the controversy, and gossip had a field day. the first lady may have been compromising the ethics to which her husband subscribed, particularly frugality, but this

no evidence to suggest she participated in any criminal looks -- criminal conspiracy. would was investigated for bad financial practices, removed from office. naturally, not only was this called a conspiracy, but there were those who intimated there was an intimate conspiracy between the two, and critics continued to spread stories to such a degree that the editor of the "new york herald" complained about the abuse heaped on the first lady, but she remained in the center of media controversy and bad press. even her husband's staff referred to their boss' wife as hellcat. she suffered, we know, severe mood swings, first after the death of willie in february, 18 62, and then following a head injury from a carriage accident in june, 18 63 -- a carriage accident, by the way, which happened when the carriage was sabotaged. it was assumed this was an

attempt on lincoln's life, but instead, his wife had a life-threatening injury to the head, and thereafter, her own sons that she was considerably altered. in 1864, when she went on another shopping spree in manhattan, the papers took aim. listen -- mrs. lincoln ransacked broadwayury of the drygoods stores. washington political hostess marion clemmer aims complained while her sister women scraped blinged, the wife of the president of the united states spent her time rolling to and fro between washington and new york, intent on extravagance for the white house. the "new york times" reported austerity campaigns among the well-heeled ladies. they boycotted imported fabrics for the duration of the war. mrs. lincoln countered by talking to congressional members who said it would bolster the u.s. economy if she were to buy foreign goods, and so indeed she did. she invested in her own agenda and demanded and received

confirmation that what she did was to actually be a patriot during this time. she was quiteat worried at the debts she had run out. she saw the reelection campaign in 1864 quite crucial to her personal relations as well as the relations of the nation. the questioned debts she feared would not come through when her one.nd but with her husband's death on the heels of surrender, mrs. lincoln became notorious, eccentric, derided. her bad press during the war was nothing compared to the melodramas as a widow. most prominent, claims by her husband's former partner that lincoln's sweetheart from new salem and rutledge was the former president's one true love. equally damaging work claims by lincoln's business associates that the president's widow was a blackmailing harridan

besmirching her husband's memory in 1867 by trying to pond her jewelry and wardrobe with the old clothes scandal, as the press dubbed the episode. political enemies suggested she did not deserve sympathy or financial support when lincoln died. there was no widow's pension. her husband's estate was tied up with lawyers for two years. she was in a state of severe dislocation following her husband's death. once her older son robert married in 1868, she took her son tad to europe for education. robert'seturned to home in 1871, but shortly thereafter, tad fell ill, and his death hit his mother and brother very hard. a few years later, mary lincoln endured and embitter and alienation from her only went in 1875, he committed his mother against her

will to an asylum, ostensibly for her own safety, but it was an act which caused incalculable damage to her esteem, and it also created a very permanent stain on her historical reputation. not only the headlines in the 1870's, but i found more than 100 years later when i went on my book tour, the first question i was always asked was, "was she crazy?" in the 1920's while lincoln biographers gathered momentum, his wife languished. mauro claimed to begin to look as if there were a conspiracy of silence. he discovered mary todd lincoln to be one of the most lied about women in the world. had thethe 20's, they publisher's hyperventilation to get the story across, but 1928 was a very good year. it was when her knees published the true story of mary, wife of

lincoln, and these volumes were intended to contradict the harsh, unsympathetic portraits of lincoln's wife in three via's work. these studies were taking aim at negative images projected, executed, and supported by william herndon. certainly for the 19th century, this lincoln biographer proved a most persistent and damning critic of mary lincoln. the reverberations from his charges are still very much with us. the personal antipathy between lincoln's law partner and lincoln's wife mary has been well documented. she was the social center of springfield during that time. we have records of her many balls and parties, cramming 300 people into that house. you can see she was quite a hostess if you go to that house in springfield, but there was no record of herndon being invited to the house. in november 1866, he gave his , ands speech on lincoln

and rutledge, ushering in the itsedge industry in perhaps most enduring legacy. for mrs. lincoln, this was a full frontal assault, a shattering blow. the aforementioned volume were joined by other rehabilitative byks, including studies william evans and carl sandburg , and jean baker, 1987. however during the late 20 , century, there was a rejection of revisionist interpretations and replaced -- as the harshest critic. he places blame for misery within the marriage which he says is a given on mary. his thoughtful and important studies of lincoln, he frequently introduces mary lincoln and her shortcomings.

and the disastrous effects on her husband. beyond the confines of marital relations. for example, he's a just and order to avoid conflict with his difficult life link it an inordinate amount of time away from home. such a tactic may have made his unfortunate marriage tolerable. it deprived the children of much contact with their father. lakin's absenteeism may seem striking but it might have been only a strategy for success. the absence of context leads to a rather biased view. he comments that the few surviving letters between the lincolns's do not suggest a deep love on either side. it goes on to state the most markable feature of that correspondence is it sparseness. i agree. there is a sparseness, but most of us in the field know that there was a burn pile outside of the springfield home. also, i would disagree, one of my favorite letters is when lincoln is a you are free of

headaches and then he goes on to ask mary have you weighed yourself? i always thought what kind of , couple would be seen is not compatible when a wife would jolly with her husband about her weight. in the 21st century, there's been a new detractor. as argued, he uses the familiar historians.mer he compares her to a psychopath like hitler. he proclaims the marriage of mary and abraham ranks as one of the worst marital misfortunes in recorded history. hyperbolefor

represents as much of a problem as does his death before his book was published. mary lincoln's cross to bear is a popular refrain echoing down , through the ages of lincoln scholars. i would suggest that -- if mary lincoln had died in 1865, perhaps not in assassin's hands, but quietly in chicago, what would her legacy be? excuse me. in dallas. [laughter] certainly, her early demise would have spared her the scandal. there would have been no battles with debates on the congressional flirt disparaging her.

there would be no spiritual photographs of the lincoln. there would have been no commitment to bellevue. and asylum in illinois. perhaps she would have been showered with praise, but it was not to be. the final years of her life were filled with memories of loss. citing the indignities. thank you. fighting the indignities. her reputation would fade with her depth. biographers would resurrect her. only to knock it out again. think you so much. in 2013, a headline in new york magazine anoints mrs. lincoln the first lady of depth. the indictment that some historians have leveled against her, are disproportionally harsh and also employed that lynn of hindsight. -- lens of hindsight. for example, this is my particular favorite, mary

lincoln shopping spree in the months leading up to the -- lincoln's assassination. most egregious cases, he has been a he -- has been quite unfair to the subject. mary cannot have a timeline. as to when her husband would be murder. she did not know about this. she was compared by the american press most lavishly in the 1980's. mary lincoln was not addicted to shoes. [laughter] however, her cereal and multiple glove purchases were nothing short of a mania. that i am willing to concede. incredible indictments continued that she was a scheming criminal and disease person. in a 2003 volume, her physical ailments at the end of her life one scholar suggests that this stems from the effects of

syphilis. there was a harsh 19th-century cure for friend ariel -- venereal diseases but this is not mary's problem. instead, her back and eyesight and many other attributes began to fail. equally debilitating, the estrangement from her son. her only remaining child. the fading memories of a happier day and the long drawn out deterioration of her physical stamina. and, her mental facilities. mary lincoln's character had repeated relentless, assaults. withinh lincoln was gone a bullet hours, mrs. lincoln's suffering stretched out for another 16 years. clearly, sometime she was able to find some light in the darkness areas and beat back her despair, obstacles would intervene. she embraced the final escape of

death and anticipated a reunion with her husband. that might have been the end of it if mary lincoln could join the company of sarah, and florence harding. strong-willed first lady who faded into obscurity. because of the rise of her husband's reputation, she is periodically reviewed and unpacked. she has always been judged by the standards of cross examiners. once again, her character is proverbially toasted on coals. i'm always very fascinated by the scholars who invest so much in lincoln. and his greatness. his foresight. his wisdom. yet, how is it that he was such a hapless victim in his choice and character with his wife? we have to recognize that her central role to his stability and her fostering his political prosperity was perhaps a choice, indeed a wise one on his part.

after they moved into the white house whatever liabilities presented during the civil war, she was the lifelong companion with whom he hoped to pursue his dreams and spend the rest of his life. i intended to make some historical restitution with my 2009 biography which was written on the foundations of previous work. i'm indeed indebted to that work. more importantly i undertook the , project with the framework of what may be called a hostile work environment. to lead up to the lincoln bicentennial. when it seemed that mary lincoln haters were out in full force. we can never truly restore a reputation because once you are smeared in the headlines the correction is on the inside pages in smalltime. it remains valuable to expose the naked conspiratorial plot. the fascination in american -- assassination in american

history has complex dynamics which reflect tenacious patterns of folklore and storytelling but in the centennial season, we should recognize that they are layers upon layers of truth meaning for us to excavate. not all truths will be self-evident. certainly if you will be equal to the fictions we continue to tell ourselves. i have come to accept that not all truths are politically correct. as historians, we should strive to the very awkward intersection when new truths might emerge. the past is always before us while historians continue to debate clash interpretations. it is my hope that more than a century and a half after the tragedy, abraham lincoln assassination we can put our new to take in the fact that discrediting lincoln's life, tumbling her reputation is a blood sport that has passed its due date.

in 2015, can we shift our attention on to the private, rather than the public tragedy of lincoln's passing? abraham was gone. his wife and sons like thousands of americans were bowed down from loss. mary lincoln spent the rest of her days struggling with grief. today, we can recognize our battle and commit to rebuild. mary lincoln reflects more about our own times than those of mrs. lincoln. as a biographer, i say, let us now praise difficult women. thank you so much. [applause] prof. clinton: thank you for the applause. >> we have our fellows.

they have microphones. during the q&a, if you wait for the microphone to get to you so all of us can hear your questions, that would help a lot. prof. clinton: please, i did shorten this talk to make it something that i hoped would provoke questions. i see we have a hand here and a hand there. >> this summer i visited robert todd lincoln's house in manchester, vermont. a wonderful place. some of the literature i saw let me to believe that there was a reconciliation between he and his mother. indeed. when the lincoln child was born. robert's daughter mary was born.

it was a child that mary lincoln very much was attached to. she believed it was named after her and ignore the facts. the child's mother was named mary. [laughter] estrangement from the grandchild seemed quite difficult. robert did indeed when his mother returned from her european sojourn -- the year she was released from the asylum, she first went to her sister's home in springfield and then she went abroad saying that she heard being recommitted. indeed, there she was, a very intelligent well-educated woman of wealth and she thought privilege and she found herself locked away. her legal rights were taken away. she thought to get out of the asylum by hook and crook and by writing to lawyers and getting herself free. then she escaped and went abroad.

she did come back when she was ill and we know that she cap in kept in touch with robert and found that she was following his political fortunes because another president lincoln was something that many of the party faithful were trying to promote. she was someone who is willing to completely recolor the relationship again and again. they did not have a close relationship. robert did indeed bring the own mie, the young daughter to visit her grandmother in springfield. we know they did see one another during that period. >> i have read that mary lincoln was very well read and view knew politics very well. did the politicians of that time know that she had this ability

and that it was influencing the president, and did that have anything to do with how she was perceived? prof. clinton: i argue in my book and in subsequent articles that she was indeed a very political woman. as my good friend at the university of virginia reminds us, there are parlor politics as well. other people have written about pillow politics. i think mary really exercise a very strong tongue. very strong-minded. she was the daughter of a politician. her sister in illinois had married a son of a governor. her sister in kentucky and the a had married the son of governor. she was used to being around politicians all the time. it greatly surprised me to discover lincoln ran for election in illinois, early on, he was criticized as being part of the bluebloods. he married into the todd family. he had access to political circles.

mary frequently wrote about it. there were rumors of a dual lincoln undertook. to defend his honor when it was assumed that letters were written in the newspaper anonymously could have been written by mary todd. indeed, we know that she probably write about politics. she held grudges. i emphasize that. there was a scene in the movie "lincoln" that she was seen in the balcony counting the votes in a small notebook. in a way that screenwriters do, that was transposed from mrs. lincoln sitting in the balcony counting the vote when her husband was being considered for senate. she found that he lost that vote and they went on and she held it against his wife because she believed that his wife had influence. his wife is something new the -- someone who knew the politics of it.

i found that very interesting to see that even in a senate vote count, in illinois, this is something that she was very invested in. when she was a young girl she would sit on the bench next to the judge. she would hear trials and she was really quite engaged. i think that was seen as very sharp, threatening. when he was elected president, his circle was quite concerned because she exercised such influence. there was a politician in norman who wanted to be on the inner circle but she remembered how he voted a few years before, and she found lots of interesting things to write back to her husband when she was in new york before going to washington. , she did give a lot of political advice that we do not have too many of those letters. as i said, they were perhaps burned. we also know that robert, her son, was a very private person. we know he solicited letters. we know that the many letters that he solicited have not yet turned up.

there is all of this rumor about the great -- filled with ashes. i do think it is safe to say that he was a victorian gentleman. who believes in privacy. he was most angry when his went public. she did clearly often write compromising letters. she wrote letters and told people to burn them. quite clearly, she was someone who was well aware that she was outside the circle of politics. i find it interesting whenever i go and find first lady books and first lady issues. saturday night live. the cartoonists. she frequently appears there. often, she is someone who has exceeded her feminine here and i think that is something that she quite clearly did. and was perceived of at the time.

>> why was robert not buried with the rest of his family in springfield? prof. clinton: why was he not what? >> why was he not in tuned with -- entombed with the rest of the family in springfield? he is the only member of the children not there. prof. clinton: because mary harlan lincoln, his wife called very much resented the way in which the lincolns exerted influence and she wanted him buried in arlington and saw to it that he would be the one lincoln not buried there. so, this was something -- also, jack, the son who died tragically is also buried there. i believe. we do have the two mary's in a way people who -- mary todd lincoln -- sorry -- not use that

phrase. mary todd, it's mary lincoln after she's married. in my book, i make the point, there's not a single time that she ever use the todd name and -- in a signature, and not even in a monogram. todd became a really important addition to her name in the early 20th century when the todd family again to emphasize dolly todd madison and mary todd lincoln. mary lincoln was someone i very much we can appreciate, and had a very distinctive persona. she said that she picked out senator harlan's mary for her son and then when senator harlan's mary was married to her husband and began to exert some influence over boundaries with her mother-in-law, she very much resented that. they really got to the point where i would argue that that was one of the reasons why she was placed in a private asylum,

not a public house, but a private house. robert was caught between a difficult situation with his wife and his mother. her breakdown occurred 10 years after the assassination and her breakdown occurring at a time when he was ill-equipped to handle his grieved ravitch mother in his home with his life -- ravitch mother in his home with his wife and children. >> it was unavoidable to not be touched by her reaction because we are in dallas after all and president kennedy was shot here. in the head. the widow had to accompany him back. prof. clinton: absolutely. >> they were both from blueblood families. prof. clinton: i would say there are many parallels.

i would say, interestingly, the way that chocolate -- jacqueline was assailed in the press was an interesting parallel. there are many interesting parallels. when i was writing this book i was very struck by the pillaging -- not the pillaging of the , but the ransacking of the press that went on to dig up dirt on the first lady, hillary clinton. i'm really struck by interesting parallels. in my book, i try to give as i , said, a remedial view of mrs. lincoln in light of what i felt was a century of his ear. -- dispute. however, there was some things i hope that i found and one of them was of course the treatment at the time which was an unprecedented. there was no other first lady that underwent the kind of scrutiny that she did in the white house. >> i think the other parallel is both presidents were at pivotal stages in civil rights

development. prof. clinton: that could be also true. i think people forget how hated lincoln was in 1864. running for reelection. not just the south, but even in new york city and the republican party. i would find letters were people -- where people would regularly referred to him as ape lincoln and use epithets. i think that was something i was quite struck. the disrespect. also, i was once visiting the town of lennix, massachusetts, where i did a biography of another difficult woman, sandy campbell. she lived in that town. i saw a portrait, a beautiful wedding portrait of a japanese bride and a very aristocratic new york husband. i look them up and they were good friends and might have even been eleanor and franklin

roosevelt attended the wedding. i was thinking, what would have been like if franklin roosevelt had married a japanese bride? [laughter] prof. clinton: and he had been in the white house with the first lady on that infamous december seventh day. i think we need to do parallels and imagine that mrs. lincoln was viewed as a southern belle married to a republican president. that, so many members of her family were serving in the confederacy. in the rebellion. all of her letters, incoming, were read. all of the correspondence that left the white house was read. otherwise, she was viewed as suspect within her own home. she was intensely loyal to my husband, he was probably more judicious in allowing her sister into the white house. senators came in and started raising a ruckus i interrogating

-- by interrogating her sister and she only stayed for a short time because it was viewed as so destructive to have the wife of a confederate war hero. visiting his white house relative, his closest sister. we did have this problem that the mary lincoln character had similar problems and i think the way in which she -- there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that if everyone is always asking me if she was crazy, i think now historians in the turn-of-the-century are dealing very sensitively with the fact that abraham lincoln clearly suffered from melancholy. at a minimum. several times during his life was confronted with crippling depression. he was -- when he was in springfield, his friends worried about him. they went to his home and took

away his razors. they visited him, doctors were a great comfort to them. he often try to get a post in south america to escape. not often, he went tried to out. once tried to get we know that he was someone who felt himself mercurial. he had been abandoned. his mother died. his sister died. he clung to marry quite seriously. he saw her as someone who truly believed in him. and gave him, i think the anchor , that he needed to rise. he could rise untethered because she always told him he was the best. and that the little giant, stephen douglas, was no giant at all. she was quite partisan and her views. i think there's some people down in front.

>> i have an ancestor who was in the medical community in washington, d.c. he was in medical school. it was part of our family lore that he was one of the physicians that came and treated mary lincoln. prof. clinton: i'm sure he was. everyone wants their family lore. >> i have not found any proof of that, but i was wondering if you would comment on what the medical community did for her at the time? prof. clinton: to comfort her? >> what did they treat her for? prof. clinton: there's a lot of debate over what kind of medication she was on. i found when i was working on her grief and her medical issues, there are no records. one can explore them. i was most struck by the fact that oliver sacks was writing a series of articles in the new york times at that time about taking medication and it seemed

to me that he was describing some of the symptoms that mrs. lincoln had been accused of. as evidence of her insanity. at her insanity trial. she thought she had an indian inside of her head pushing needles out. as i read that i thought, who has not had a migraine? [laughter] it's a very interesting way in which people are trying to express themselves. i came to the conclusion that maybe some of the problems were that she took medication and perhaps also indulged in alcohol. the mixture of alcohol in the specific drugs can actually lead to the kind of hallucinations that did indeed make her at -- plague her at certain points. also, of course, she had anxiety attacks she had hysteria, i am , perfectly willing to concede that these were episodes, but,

we recently recovered through the intrepid scholarship of a scholar named jason emerson some letters that she wrote from inside the asylum. but, i find it so interesting because he published his book on -- of her letters, called the "madness of mary lincoln." he read the letters one way and i read them a different way. i think we can agree to disagree on these kinds of issues. some people suggest that she was plagued by mental illness. she was in the attic sometimes elar other times. again, i say, really? have you ever had any adolescent women in your home? i just feel as if some of the medical analysis of text is exaggerated. just as i'm sure my critics think that i am always looking on a very positive light to try and give a contrasting view. but i say that i write and i create within the context that

i'm given. that is, again, what i would explain to people i was writing on mary lincoln, they would say, who is that? lincoln,ay mary todd and the next question would be, where she crazy? i would try to write in the context of whether or not she was what was the context or , medical issue? she often wrote melodramatically saying i'm looking out at the water and thinking of taking a walk and never returning. there is an issue that her son allegedly thought she might commit suicide which was why she was committed in 1875. but my view is i think she was a candidate for suicide it would have happened much earlier. we don't actually know much about suicide, it is something that i took up as a subject after i worked on mrs. lincoln. i'm now working on a project on insanity.

suicide, and union soldiers. during the american civil war. there is so little secondary literature to look to to trying to diagnosis. i think we are going to keep diagnosing mary lincoln and finding new illnesses. there was a wonderful program put on by the state of illinois. the bar association in chicago. they brought people in and put mrs. lincoln on trial. trials andoing looking at the evidence in light of our perspectives today. it was quite compelling. at one point, i talked to a psychiatrist. at one point, i talked to a psychiatrist, who was passionately saying he knew exactly what mrs. lincoln problem was and she had been , massively overspending her husband's budget. a judge said, excuse me, i am in

court every day. i would say, if you are going to put people in overspending your four budget, the city of chicago would need to build many more asylums. we did joke about it, but not. in other words, there is a double-speak going on. we watch it in presidential candidates and issues. in the 1860's, and i think we see it in the campaign now. >> [indiscernible] prof. clinton: it is such a pleasure to meet with her because it is such a thrill for a biographer to meet with someone more test with the person you are living with then you are. she really went to understand and inhabit mrs. lincoln.

to really try to get a feeling for her. i was completely mesmerized by what i thought she showed four -- were dimensions of mrs. lincoln that i had not imagined. of herht, the depth disturbances, especially in the early scenes of the movie which were really powerful and quite wonderful. i also thought the costumes were fantastic. i worked with the costume designer and tell a story that i found one of the dresses at the chicago historical society that was the mrs. lincoln day dress. it was amazing how they made the cloth, made the dress. sally fields put it on, it did not look right on camera. they remade it. that is on the cutting room floor, because that is what happens in films. but sally field did such a magnificent job inhabiting that particular role and i was very grateful to be invited, in a

small way, to have any influence. because all the books written about lincoln are out there being read by a hungry audience here and elsewhere, but the power of a film portrait is quite important and i was really pleased that she did such a wonderful job. not that i did not like the mary the empire layer. [laughter] i thought anything getting , people reading about campaigns against slavery is really powerful. also, mrs. lincoln was interested and invested in politics in that film and i think that showed and it was one of the few portraits that show what i suggested in my book was central, that's a lot of her unstable behavior near the end of the fact that her husband

sent her firstborn into uniform with the person she referred to "that butcher grant." it was really a brawl on the homefront, and i think it was captured well. >> i know that robert lincoln had money. i am not sure if he did when mrs. lincoln left the white house. he did not come to her aid at all? prof. clinton: robert had no money, he was a law student. he was waiting to inherit from his father. it was in the headlines, how

much they had. later, of course, through his he was assistant secretary of state or war -- of war. he had actually been with garfield, physically, at union station when garfield was assassinated. he was later on his way to buffalo with mckinley. so -- there are rumors about robert lincoln. his support of his mother was that he was a dutiful victorian son who found his mother's behavior -- she would not leave the white house for weeks. they went to chicago where she was clearly in grief -- in mourning. disproportionate. she was desperate about money. he had to live with her during a time when she was most erratic and quite imbalanced. my good friend said she suffered from financial bulimia.

she would spend and then she would sorrow. the old clothing scandal was because elizabeth had come to chicago to visit her. and elizabeth had been such a great confidant and friend, but she happened to be in chicago and she saw and auction, a charity auction, for the children of civil war veterans. the orphans. at this auction was a dresser she had made for marina davis. >> "washington journal" -- mrs. lincoln vowed she would never wear anything but black again. so she was traveling with several dozen trunks of her white house goods, which was completely legal at the time. she took away her private goods. at that time, people gave the president carriages, clocks. this was part of the general -- not bribery, but part of the

protocol that went on during this time. she had trunks of clothing she would never wear again. and there she was with her two sons and they presented to her the idea that these could be sold anonymously and they would make money for her because she was waiting for the estate to settle. the old clothing scandal was so awful in the headlines. robert was particularly furious with her for going to new york, for trying to sell her clothing for having them put on display on broadway. here is the first lady's wardrobe, exposed. it was a horror for him. she never ended up making any money on the sale and she never did anything that alienated him him even more,ng and alienated the affections of

the government at that time, because there was a campaign headed by charles sumner, a fan of hers, to get her a pension. she eventually did get a pension, she was the first presidential widow to get a pension. i think he financially was not in a position to help his mother, he helped her as much as he could at the time. he could not give her what she needed at the time. >> i thought at the time when she was selling her clothing and jewelry she was destitute. did she have a woman friend that was a champion for her? one friend who stood by her? prof. clinton: i think her friendship with elizabeth is poignant because elizabeth was the premier dressmaker in washington at the time. an african-american woman who bought her own freedom and worked her way up. elizabeth keckley was someone who was her confidante.

to say "friend" is a complicated issue, because they had an employee-employer relationship. but she went with her to chicago and she was very much her champion. she published her own story in order to set the record straight on mary lincoln, because most of the staff in the white house, the african-american staff, thought of mary lincoln in a supportive way. she challenged the protocol by taking an african-american woman in through the front door. complaining to the doorman who turned her away. publicly embraced the woman in front of the white house, which caused a scandal. she was someone who let elizabeth keckley influence her, but when the book came out, and when robert went especially ballistic over this issue of mrs. lincoln's life being exposed to her dressmaker, she disavowed her.

they never met again, never spoke again. they died alienated and that, i think, was a very sad thing. her own older sister, elizabeth, who had been a substitute mother for her was probably her closest confidante. she returned to that home of her sister in springfield. the same home where she was married to mr. lincoln and she died upstairs from the parlor. in a very, i think, sad way. no, i don't think she had a best rent and championed that we hoped she would be served by. >> [indiscernible]

prof. clinton: there was a parade of lincoln scholars who wanted to know the exact influence she did or did not have over the emancipation proclamation. i could find no information that would lead to my belief that she played a champion of the emancipation. but i would say her visiting visiting contraband camps, her relationship with mrs. elizabeth keckley, shows she was very strongly in favor of a pro-anti-slavery policy on the part of the administration and she championed her husband on that. she had two grandmothers who had freed all of their slaves, that was something she spoke about. all of this evidence is post-war. chahas her chapping --

mpioning her legacy afterwards. however, she was the one who gave a cane to douglas. she gave artifacts to elizabeth who gave them to wilberforce later. much of the memorabilia that when out at that time when out to african-americans, because mrs. lincoln, in 1865, began a very deliberate campaign of linking her husband's legacy to that of african-american freedom. so i cannot really give an answer to the emancipation proclamation question because i did not find any after digging, but i can say i do believe she did much to elevate her husband's reputation as the "emancipator," for good or ill. [applause]

>> this holiday weekend, american history tv on c-span 3 has two days of future programming. 1:00, thenoon at years ago, rosa parks defined a city ordinance for blacks to leave seats on city buses to leave white passengers. we will reflect on the boycott and see what role lawyers played in the protest and the civil rights movement. we will hear from the attorney for rosa parks and protesters. at 6:00, on the little-known aspects of union general ulysses s grant and robert e lee. america" a report on nasa projects. just before 9:00, writer and award-winning documentary

filmmaker, rick burns, on how the public learns about history through film and television. american history tv, all weekend too only on c-span 3. a"sunday night on "q and tyler able talks about the second volume of "mr. pearson's diaries," which give an insider's take on washington, d.c. from 1960 to 1969. it was just remarkable, all the things he did. sometimes he would criticize themselves in the diaries. if you read it that carefully, you would come across places where he said, i think that column was too strong, i should not have said it in that way, or lyndon will get mad at me for the way i wrote that column. but, he needed to be told what i wrote.

>> sunday on "q&a." you on the road to the white house and into the classroom. this year, our student cam documentary contest asked students to tell us what issues they want to hear from the candidates. get all the details about the contest at c-span.org. on december 1, 1955, rosa parks, an african-american seamstress, it refused to give up her seat. her actions sparked a year-long action in the region. to commemorate the 60th anniversary of roe some parks' defines, the national bar association hosted a series of events. visit dexter avenue king memorial baptist