bozeman, montana, i've seen people who are using that broadband connection to build businesses that in a previous era either would have had to migrate to one of the coasts or would have withered on the vine. but because of that connection, they're now able to innovate. i think that's something that's really powerful, especially in rural america. >> watch "the communicators" tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2. recently c-span's "american history tv" has been airing a selection of oral histories with african-american community leaders. the project titled "explorations in black leadership" was a collaboration between university of virginia professors phyllis leffler and gilliland bond. next we hear from mary futrell. she talks about growing up attending and later working in segregated schools and her efforts at desegregation. this program is about two hours.

>> mary futrell, thank you for agreeing to spend this time with us. >> it's my pleasure to be here. >> we want to begin with some examination of your background and education. who are the people in your background who helped to shape you as you were coming along as a youngster? >> as i reflect on my background i would think the first person would be my mother. she was not an educated woman but she believed very strongly in education. and insisted that my sister and myself, that we study hard that we do what we needed to do. she believed that we had the potential to do the schoolwork, so she insisted that we concentrate and focus very strongly on education. she was a no-nonsense county of parent. the report card had to be turned in, she wanted to see the homework. she would visit the school any time. even though we didn't have a car she'd change buses two or three times to come see how we were doing and to interact with the teachers. the teachers that i had and in particular a teacher that i had

named miss jordan who was again a no-nonsense teacher but a very caring person. miss jordan always used to tell us, don't ever put yourself down, that you can do it, take your time, and put forth the best effort. my teachers also taught me that education was absolutely crucial to anything that i or my classmates wanted to do in life. and so when i look back i look back at the teachers i had at robert s. paine elementary school. i look back at the teachers i had at dunbar high school. and how they set very high standards for us. they helped us to achieve those standards. and they worked very closely with the parents, with my mother. they understood that she had to work. but she work the with her. i also think the community had a tremendous influence on my education. i grew up in the ghetto. but the neighbors didn't say, look at these poor, from a single-parent home, et cetera. they were like extended family and like parents as well.

unlike today. if we were outside playing and they felt we had not done our homework, we were told "go in the house and do your homework." you did not say no, you did not talk back. you went in the house and you did whatever you had to do. they also would talk about our grades, if we were in activities at school they'd come to see us, encourage us. it was that extended family, it was my mother and it was the teachers and the schools who just insisted that we meet the highest possible educational standards. >> the kind of encouragement you got from miss jordan, was that standard you think among black teachers in segregated schools at this time? was that what other children were getting too? >> yes. and again, you have to remember, i was not one of the affluent, quote-unquote, black kids in this city. i was a very poor child from what they now call a dysfunctional family but i didn't realize i was from a dysfunctional family. the teachers all insisted yes, you can learn. yes, you will learn. you are going to learn. they were there to help us, encourage us, teach us. so i think the teachers made a

tremendous difference in the lives of the children in those schools. our schools didn't have the supplies, we didn't have the equipment, we didn't have the nice furniture and things that the other schools had. but they didn't let that stop them. they said, regardless as to what we do or do not have, you still are able to think, you have a mind, you have a brain, we're going to help you develop that, we're going to help you learn. that's what they did. >> this kind of community support you described a moment ago, people in the neighborhood watching out for you, telling you, telling your mother when you didn't go to school. >> right. >> those kinds of things. how important was that feeling, that everything in this area wanted you to do well? >> julian, when i look back on my life, it was very important. because my mother worked all the time. my father died when i was very young. and she decided not to go on welfare. she decided she was going to work. so she had a steady job but she also worked all these piecemeal jobs. cleaning churches and short order cook, whatever. we were alone a lot.

if it had not been for caring neighbors who looked after us not only to make sure we were well fed and safe, but to also say, you have chores to do, you have homework to do. if you don't have home work, you have books you can read. to make sure the report card -- they looked at our report cards like my mother looked at our report cards are if we did something wrong they corrected us. they would make sure my mother knew what we were and were not doing. it wasn't a tattletale situation, it was trying to help us and trying to help the family. i've often looked back and thought about the fact thatfy had not had that kind of extended family from the community, where would i be today? i don't know where i would be today. >> at the time, did you think it was unusual? did you think it normal that your next-door neighbor and the people up the block looked out for you? >> i thought they were being very nosey, i thought they were intruding, they had nothing to do with me, i was not their child, that was sometimes my inner feeling. but i also had been taught, you don't talk back to your elders and when they tell you to do things, you're supposed to do it. when i look back now i'm very

grateful for the fact that they were the substitute family for me. because my mother didn't have a lot of relatives in lynchburg. it was my mother, my sister, myself. she raised two foster children. and we were it. and so the neighbors became that surrogate family. the neighbors became the ones who were there looking out for her. at the time i resented it. i didn't want to do what they asked me to do. thank god i did. >> you've mentioned several times that your family was poor, father died early. >> yes. >> mother had to work. >> yes. >> not only a regular job but other jobs. what effect do you think this had on shaping you into the person you are today, the person you became? >> well, my mother believed in hard work. she taught us to believe in hard work. and let me share a little story with you. when i became the president of the nea, my husband and i moved into a new house and my mother came up to visit me and to help me -- help us get settled. and i thought that was an opportune time to tell her what i thought about the way she had raised us. and i told her. and i said to her, i thought you were too hard on me, i thought

you were too demanding of me, i didn't get a lot of new clothes and my friends and others had new clothes. and i said, matter of fact, my older sister got more new clothes than i did, clothes oftentime did fit, they were homely looking. and i just felt that was the time to tell her what i thought. and she didn't say anything. you know, and i said, well, i finally got it off my chest, i was feeling pretty good. julian, the next morning, i don't know about your mother but my mother had a way of saying, let's sit down and talk. when i sat down and she cupped my chin in her face i knew i was in trouble. what she said to me was, i knew that you had potential but i knew if i didn't hold on to you that you would go astray. she said, i didn't know what was going to happen to me, i didn't know whether i was going to live to see you become an adult, whether i was going to die, i didn't know what was going to happen. she said, i had to make sure that you and ann and marianne and my other foster sister, that you were prepared. she said, i felt that you had potential. a mother, she said to me, knows

her child. i knew you had potential. and i had to make sure that that potential was developed. so she said, i had to teach you the value of work. of hard work. teach you the value of sacrifice. teach you the value of believing in yourself. and that you could achieve, if you wanted to achieve, and not let your circumstances control you. she said, i had to teach you to use your mind. and to develop it to the best of your ability. i had to teach you to be able to work with different people and to think for yourself at the same time, not to be overly persuaded by other people. by the time she finished, obviously i was in tears. because i had never thought about it from that point of view. she basically was saying to me, i had to teach you how to survive, because i didn't know what was going to happen to me but i wanted to make sure that whatever happened, you could stand on your own. and when i look back, i am a very hard worker. i laugh and tell her all the time, i took after you, i'm a workaholic r. i love to study, i love to read. i think i took that after her as

well. i'm the kind of person i will help someone else and i will do for others. that i think i got from her. much of who i am today i am because of the way she raised me. and she also said to us, your circumstances do not have to control, you can be anything you want. but if you want to stay in a certain place, you can do that too. but i want you to move forward. so she believed in me and taught me to believe in myself. and so when i look at where i am and the things i've accomplished in my life, i give a lot of the credit to her. >> do you have any idea why your mother thought -- every parent thinks their child can do anything. here your mother is living in this segregated system, limited by her own lack of education. >> right. >> what made her believe that you -- not you her child, but you, a black child -- could rise out of this, out of this segregated system? what made her think that you could surpass the circumstances of lynchburg? this racial caste system? >> i think you would have to look at her background and her mother and her father both died before she was 10. and we talk about that often.

she's been more open about her family and the latter years than she was in the early years. she talked about the fact that they had a nice home. and that family was together. the mother was a housewife, the father was the one that went to work. all of a sudden everything changed. all of a sudden they were orphans. here were five kids with no mother, no father. they had to go back to their relatives. and their entire lives changed. they didn't have the nurturing, they didn't have middle class, they didn't have the things they'd had before. and how she did not let that stop her from believing that she could have a better life. she deeply regretted the fact that she was not able to get a high school education because she had to go work. but she said, i realize that my working and that my believing in myself and that by believing in others and trying, that i could make my life better. if i had a dream, if i had a goal, if i just was determined. so i think a lot of what she did for us, and especially for me,

and she work the in white people's homes as a maid. and she made very little money. and i remember a lot of times, julian, the food that i ate was the food that she brought home from where she worked. and -- but that was the way we survived. otherwise we wouldn't have had any food. but she taught us, you don't hate white people. don't hate them, but you can do better than what you've done, you can do better than what i've done. what i've done i think is good but you can do even better. she just knew her children. and she felt very deeply that i could do a lot better than i was doing and she was determined to make me succeed. and that kind of determination worked. and how she knew it, i don't know. i guess it was a mother's instinct. mother's intuition. >> what did she and what did your teachers tell you about limitations or lack of limitations placed on you because of your race and because of your gender? women, expectations for women were very different then than

they are now. what do you remember about any limitation or lack of limitation because of your gender? >> well, i think that when i look at race and gender, i te attended segregated schools all the way up there undergraduate college. and i remember when i was in high school i signed up for the academic program. and i attended an all-black school. and when i went back to school the next year, i was not in the academic program. i had been taken out and put into the vocational program. and i remember asking the counselor and the administrator why. and -- because i was a kid who always asked why. and they said that they were trying to put me in a program to help me get a job because i probably would never go to college, because my family was too poor. and i remember how devastated i was. because again, my mother is encouraging me, you can be anything you want to be, don't let your circumstances hold you back. and so i went ahead -- my mother didn't know that she could go to the school and insist that i be

put in the academic program. so i ended up in the vocational program. but again, trying to make the best out of what i had there. but it was interesting. because in schools in those days, up until about the tenth grade, most of the kids were in the same classes as related to english, math, science, history, et cetera. so it was that core curriculum that was there. and i did very well in those courses, as well as in the vocational courses. and i remember when i was -- i think it was a junior in high school, they gave a test. and i came out number five in the class. and the teachers and everyone, they were shocked. so then they switched me over to the academic track. by then i didn't have the background. but i also remember those teachers going out and it getting me money to go to school. i did not plan to go to college. my mother simply did not have the money. they went out and they collected the money in the neighborhood to send me to school. i remember the night i graduated. they didn't tell me, they told my mother, they didn't tell me.

i assume they didn't tell me because they didn't know how much they were going to collect. the night i graduated they walked up on the stage and gave me $1,500 to go to school. and i was flabbergasted. i remember one of the teachers said to me, apply anyway. and i was like, why apply? i'm not going, i don't have any money, why should i apply? she insisted, apply anyway. so here were the administrators and other people telling me i couldn't. but here were my teachers telling me i could. and not only saying you can, but all along insisting that i do the best that i could with my studies. and then saying, here's the money to go. now it's up to you. >> do you think this is because -- this difference in what administrators and deepers are telling you, was it because the teachers knew you better than the administrators? >> i think so. >> and the administrators are thinking they're doing you a favor. >> right. >> they're helping you. >> right. >> you can't go to college so we're going to make it possible for you to get a job. >> right. >> it's amazing to me looking at that you didn't say, they're

right, i'm not going to college, so -- i'm surprised you even applied. >> you've got to remember, for a long time i didn't think i was going to go. i did not plan to go. until my teachers came to me and said, you apply. i said, i'm not going, why? i assumed i was going to graduate, get a job probably as a secretary or receptionist or something, and that was going to be it. i assumed my life was going to be lynchburg, virginia. the teachers came and they said, no, you apply. but they didn't tell me what they had planned for me. and some of my teachers still alive today, by the way, when i go back to reunions i see mrs. watson, i see miss jordan -- miss irving, some of the other teach hoarse worked with me, who taught me. and they sometimes are surprised at how appreciative i am. but i said, you have to remember that if you had not intervened, where would i be today? i think the answer to your question is, yes. i was in their classrooms every day. they had a chance to get to know me, they had a chance to get to see what i could do, they knew

what kind of person i was. the administrators saw me periodically. and they maybe knew me because i was a cheerleader, because i was in student council. they didn't know mary. we had one counselor for the whole school. counselor saw me maybe my junior year, when i moved from eighth grade to saw me, maybe again in my junior year. i didn't go to the counselor. i didn't have a lot of problems or anything like that. i just sort of counseled myself in whatever i had to take, i did it. the teachers were the ones who worked with me and who knew me. some of them were in my church. a few of them were in surrounding neighborhoods. so they knew my mother and everything. so i think it was because they were the one hot knew. >> there's a sociologist namedal done morris who has this theory that black communities in this period were a community which upheld and reinforced not only mom and dad but church, school,

every institution upheld and reinforced the need to struggle against this segregation system. not necessarily by marching and picketing and so on. but surpassing the circumstances. was lynchburg like that? did lynchburg, black lynchburg, sort of push you -- >> yes. >> not just you but other young people as well? >> yes. lynchburg was the kind of community -- a very close-knit community, black community was. and i was growing up -- i grew up in a time where there was one black dentist for the whole city. there was one doctor. i think we had a lawyer. so the prominent people in the community were the teachers. and the religious people. and so when i went to diamond hill baptist church i was going to church with also the people who taught me in my school. and they were very supportive, very involved. and they didn't let the segregation stop them. i remember one time when i was at dumas high school, we had asked for improvements to the school.

the city told us they couldn't give them to us, they couldn't afford it. and yet the next year i remember very distinctly they brought those brand new things to the high school. at that time it was considered to have the state-of-the-art gym and all these different things and classrooms. they had told us there was no money. we didn't have the up-to-date class books, textbook. we didn't have the up-to-date equipment. that wasn't simply lynchburg. when i moved to alexandria and started teaching i was surprised in alexandria the black kids would get the textbooks that were being used by the white kids and after they finished we would get them. we would get the hand me down equipment. i remember one year we asked for workbooks so our kids could have practical experiences. we were told they couldn't afford them. but when we went to a meeting at the white school, there they were. so what the community said, despite these enequities, despite this discrimination -- we knew it all exists. i remember the buses being segregated. i remember going to work with my mother to help out and we had to go through the back door.

and i remember saying, why should we go through the back door when the bus stop is closer to the front door? so now why do i have to walk all the way around here? my mother would simply say, just go through the back door. whenever i got a chance i'd sneak through the front door. once in a while you get caught. but we were aware of all these things. the parents and the community would say to us, don't let those kibs of things hold you back. life is going to change, things are different, you can be and you will be -- so they pushed us. and so that's the way it happened. >> in some of the research we prepared for this, i saw that you described yourself as an introvert. how does an introvert become a basketball player and a cheer leader? that seems to me like the opposite of intro version. >> when i was growing up, julian, don't fall off your chair laughing at this, my name was bony maroney. my nickname was skinny minnie. my nickname was see mo.

see mo holes than clothes. my friends made fun of me, even today, they see me. i tended to be shy from the perspective of the material kinds of things that i did not have and my friends did have. so i would not come forth. but once i got in is group, i was okay. for example, when i was -- when i tried out for the cheering squad, i didn't make it. the first time, i didn't make it. but you know what i did? i stayed every day and when they practiced, i practiced. finally, throughout the year, i had observed kids would drop off. so i was put on because i stayed there and i practiced, i made the team. being a cheerleader and being part of the basketball team and being part of the student council and business leaders of america, those opportunities gave me a chance to grow and to open and up to have more confidence in myself than i'd had before. because when you're black, you know what poverty is, even if it's among the blacks. there were black hot had more than i had. nicer home, nicer cars, they had

money, you could tell by the way they dressed and the way they acted that this was another class. and here i was over here. even then there was discomfort. but those kinds of activities helped me to discover who i was. and helped me confidence in who i was and who i could be. again, teachers encouraging me, get out there and run. doesn't matter if you're skinny. they used to tell me that i had bird legs. doesn't matter, you get out there and you play, you do the best you can. doesn't matter, you get out there and you be active in the future business leaders. you're a good student, you can do this work. so that was how i began to develop as a person and to become more outgoing. >> now is it fair to just guess that it is teachers who served as models for you choosing to become a teacher? >> yes. >> at both high school and college? >> yes. when i went to school, i was as i said absolutely shocked that i got to go. i didn't believe it. i don't think i even believed it until i got there.

and my mother got some other -- we didn't have a car, she got someone to take me down. again, you've got to remember, i'm getting there -- and i'm going to be honest, i thought, i'm going to go here but i'm probably not going to finish. i don't have any money. my family can't afford it. so i probably won't finish. but this was my strategy. you go and stay as long as you can, and i majored in business education for a reason. if you don't make it, at least you will have some different skills and some new skills that should help you get a better job. and if you do make it, become a teacher. i wanted to be a teacher to give back to the profession that gave so much to me. and i felt, if those teachers can make that much of a difference in my life, then i can make a difference in the lives of other children. so that was my strategy. >> i don't want to go right away to this, but obviously you had to be learning things then, both high school and college, that affected the leadership position you much later come to. >> yes.

>> what was it then -- student government -- was it it then you think that helped you become the lead are you're later going to become? >> well -- i think one wassing when confidence. another one was the ability to work with people. learn hogto work with all kinds of people, learning how to listen, learning how to appreciate different ideas and not look at the source of the idea but the quality of the idea. i think it was -- how do i phrase it -- being able to motivate people. because i became the captain of the cheering squad. and so being able to motivate, being able to lead, being able to get people to do things. i think a major part of leadership is being able to persuade people to do things. having the will and ability and desire to do things. and so when you're out there and your team is losing and you've still got to cheer, you've still got to play, or you're competing for these fdla awards, student government awards. even though you don't win, as long as you've done your best. a lot of those things helped. also church. in church, that was the first

time i stood up and spoke out. you know, and it was little things like you maybe would say the 23rd psalm or the lord's prayer. having the courage to get up and speak out. being in a school play. those kinds of activities give you confidence and give you the ability to get up and do things that later you take for granted. i tell people all the time, what i have learned and what i have done as a leader started back in lynchburg. started back at virginia state college. where i was given the opportunity or opportunities to be out front and to do things. i had to grow, like anyone else. i was not -- i don't think i was a natural leader. i had to acquire skills and i had to grow. and so i was also willing to learn. willing to study. willing to listen. and so those things helped me later. >> how did you overcome defeats? you know, you apply for a leadership position or you want to win a prize and you don't get it.

it happens all the time to everybody. but how did you overcome those defeats? >> you know, when i was in high school i was selected to be -- i think it was either the vice president or something like that for the student government. it was taken away from me. the reason it was taken away was because i wasn't there at the time of the election, and i wasn't there because i was off cheerleading. and they told me, you weren't present so we gave to it someone else. no one had told me i needed to be there to win. i was upset but i said, life goes on. if you really believe that you can be a leader you come back -- first of all, you stick with the organization, then you come back and try again. when i became -- first started getting involved in the association, a lot of people don't know that i ran for the virginia educational association's board of directors. and they refused to put my name forward. i don't know whether it was because i was black or because i was a woman or what it was. but they refused to put my name forward. then by insisted they put my name forward they refused to put

the vita information forward. when the ballot went out with accompanying documentation all they had was my name and where i taught and the association to which i belonged. they didn't talk about anything i'd done. but my opponent, there was this long page. and they didn't send it out, i had no chance to correct it. and i decided to challenge it. and i was -- i feel sometimes like gore feels. but people were very angry with me because i had the audacity to challenge this election. they told me, in all the history of the vea, no one had ever challenged the election. and i said, well, if i had been treated fairly and lost, i would not have challenged. i said, but i was not treated fairly. first they didn't want to put my name on the ballot, i had to fight for that. secondly, when they put my name on the ballot they didn't put any information about me. so i fought it. i had to go before the entire general assembly, virginia, vea general assembly. and they -- i was surprised when they ruled in my favor. i thought i wasn't going to win.

and i'm going to confess and say that after i made my speech -- during my speech, i was so scared. i had to prop my knee against the podium to keep from falling down. i was so scared. i was afraid i was going to fall down, how scared i was. when it was over i went out in the back and i got on the steps and put my head down and covered it up because i was so sure there was going to be this huge resounding no. and they came and got me. they said, mary, you won. and i said, what? and they said, yes. i said, no, you're kidding me, i couldn't. this had never happened. what they basically did is they refused to honor the election. and they september it bant it b. and then they said my opponent nor i could run for it, so they selected somebody else. but you learn how to survive. you learn, julian, if you believe in something strongly enough, that you're willing to go back and keep trying. you also have to believe in yourself. and if you've done things and you've done it fairly, you have to stand up and fight for

yourself. and when you grow up in a segregated society like i did, you learn how to fight early. so when i look back at all the things i experienced in lynchburg and virginia state and other places, i had learned at virginia state to be a fighter. to stand up. i had learned in lynchburg, unknowingly, to stand up. and so you don't let defeat stop you. you come back and you keep trying. and if you believe in it, the organization or the onseptember or whatever, you have to stand up and fight for what you believe in, even if you're not the person up front. you support who is up front. that's basically what happened. >> speaking of segregation and a segregated society, do you remember the brown decision, may '54, do you remember hearing about it at the time? >> no. >> just passed by? >> no, you have to remember in the south in those days, a lot of that stuff, no, you would not get a lot of coverage. we didn't have tv and it wasn't really on radio. i vaguely remember -- i tell you what i remember. i remember the schools being

closed in appomattox. a lot of concern in appomattox. i remember the brown decision when i went away to virginia state college. and this is why i remember. they asked all of us, when we went home, to bring back the books that we had in high school, to give to kids in the state who were not allowed to go to school because the schools had been shut down because of brown. and i was astounded. because appomattox was right next door to lynchburg. and so here you are saying the schools are going to be closed. and let's give them our books, our old books. and so then in college, that's when i really learned about what had happened with the brown decision. my schools had not desegregated until i was well out of high school. well out of lynchburg. i think it was four, five years after i left college that my schools finally desegregated. my sister went to desegregated schools, i did not. >> you don't remember discussion

among your teachers -- >> no. >> -- in 1954 -- >> no. -- about what this might mean? >> i'm not sure it was even discussed. you have to understand at that time also, if they discussed it, they may have discussed it among themselves but i don't remember it being discussed as part of a lesson. i don't remember that. >> because you did not go to integrated schools, until you go to graduate school, how has the brown decision affected your-? it didn't affect the education you received. what effect has it had on you? >> well, first of all, i think it affect the me as a teacher. because the school where i first taught was segregated. and then they desegregated the school. i think it affect the me as a student in graduate school because i was able to go to george washington university, university of maryland. i even took courses from uva. and if thatted that happened ten years ago, ten years earlier, i would not have been able to do so. it affected me by really focusing on equal educational

opportunities and that you shouldn't judge a person's ability to learn by the color of their skin. and so when i finally taught in those integrated schools, i treated my children as equals. and i say to my children, that's who they were, that they can learn just like anyone else. i tried to use the opportunity to help all sides learn more about oned on. respect one another. appreciate one another. and understand that we can learn. because you've got to remember too that i came along at the time when basically the impression was, we couldn't learn. that we didn't have the intelligence to learn. and i can remember sitting in classes and the white kids thinking that the black kids couldn't learn, the black kids thinking that white kids were arrogant and racist. so as a teacher you're trying to bring all that together. i appreciate brown because i think that brown did what should have been done at the beginning. all children deserve an equal opportunity to be educated. and be educated at their maximum potential. brown helped us achieve

desegregation. i don't think we've achieved integration. there's still too much segregation in our schools. and i think we still have a long way to go. but brown opened a door. a lot of people don't know, for example that brown also helped desegregate schools for children with disabilities, special needs. when relook at children like ryan white who had aids, one of the things he used to open up the door was the brown decision. as a sick person, i have the right to go to school. so i have deep appreciation and deep respect for the brown decision. because i think it has changed the face of not only education but the face of america. >> now, you said a moment ago we've desegregated but haven't integrated. what is it going to take to achieve an integrated education or an integrated america? >> oh, that's a tough one. if i knew the answer to that question i probably would be the richest person in the world. we still have a lot of work to do, i think, with changing attitudes and changing behavior. if you look at our schools and

you look at our churches, i still think that in many ways they're two of the most segregated institutions in this country. i'm a religious person, foot-stomping southern baptist. i believe in god but when i go to church, very few white people in my church. if i go to a height white church it's just the opposite, very few black people. i keep asking myself, if god treated us all as equal and we're all his children, why are we so significant yeah gated? schools are segregated by tracking. if you look at the gifted and talented, primarily white, maybe asians, maybe one or two african-americans or hispanics. you look at the academic program, a little more integration. if you look at the general track, it's primarily hispanic. you look at the vocational track respect that's still primarily black. especially black and brown males. and so one of the things that we talk about, for example, with

the standards movement -- i keep asking people, if we want children to meet the same standards, when are we going to change the schools? because as long as this structure is in place, you're not going to meet the standards. and these children are going to look as though they can't learn. it's not that they can't learn, they're not being taught. the basic math, the basic science, the basic english, the basic whatever. so a lot of it has to do with politics. a lot of it has to do with educational policies. a lot of it has to do with attitudes that we still have. but what america has to understand is we're becoming more diverse, not less. i read a study from ets that shows that by the end of this decade we will have somewhere between 55 million and 56 million children in our elementary and secondary schools alone. the vast majority of the increase will come from african-american and hispanic-american backgrounds. same thing at the college level. so the question becomes, can america expect to continue to be a leader and not educate those

children as well as it's educating the whites and the asians, et cetera? can we? and the answer, in my opinion, is no. i think we need to do a better job of desegregating and integrating our classes. we need to do a better job of integrating our teaching force. we need to look at the curriculum. and the focus should be on helping people develop their intellectual potential. just as it was when we were in those black schools. >> now, what has been lost? it was a great victory to do away with segregation. but also loss involved in this. >> yes. >> jobs lost, memory lost, history lost. what was lost in this transition from the segregated society to the desegregated society? >> you mean as far as education is concerned? >> yes, education or generally. but education particularly. >> i think -- i think that if you look at what's happening in some communities now, a lot of the black parents are saying, we want to go back to the neighborhood schools, we want to go back to these schools, even

though they're segregated. they're looking at how they were supported and encouraged and how they were -- it was insisted that you learn. and what a lot of the black parents and hispanic parents are saying is that we don't see that same kind of push in the schools today. now, there's blame on both sides. blame on the side of the schools, blame on the side of the parents. because you go back to what i said. my mother was a major force in making sure i did what i was supposed to do in schools. the teachers were as well. but we look at what i see as being lost is the kids who were at the top academically, i don't see them at the top academically. i see them at the top athletically. but not academically. and i would say to i do, we can do both. and so i think that one of the things that's been lost is, where are those black kids and those hispanic kids and those poor kids who were role models when i was coming along? and why can't we have that now? and how do we do a better job of

training the teachers and preparing the teachers, how do we do a better job at nurturing the students so that we have that kind of integration? how do we do that? i see in our society -- and i have the opportunity to travel a lot internationally. america is more integrated than any other country in the world. more countries are becoming integrated. when i go to england, when i go to the netherlands and france and all those places now, they're far more integrated now than they were when i started going in the '80s. but no one is like us. we represent every country in the world. so people have a lot to learn from us, we also have a lot to learn. when i look at society in general, society i think has to accept the fact, we're not going to change, we're going to become even more desegregated, even more integrated. we're going to be part of a world where we are the minority. and that world is a very culturally diverse world. and so if we're going to be global leaders, we have to make

sure that our children, our citizens, understand what it means to live in a multi-cultural, intercultural type of global society. and help us deal with that, those changes, as we move forward. >> now, that's a big challenge and it's a challenge that calls upon leadership. from time to time i've heard you say that one aspect of your leadership is being open to different opinions and so on. do you think you have a leadership philosophy? if you do, what is your philosophy of leadership? >> well, i think that my philosophy is basically, if you're going to lead, you have to get out front and be willing to take risks, you have to be willing to listen, you have to be willing to do whatever you need to do to achieve the goals that you've set, you have to be willing to work with all kinds of people, and you have to be basically determined. i'm a firm believer -- it doesn't have to be my idea all the time when it's out there.

if you've got a better idea, okay, let's put it out there and let's try to make it work. how do i motivate other people to make this idea work? to me, that's leadership. and i find so many times that people have a vision but they don't know how to implement it. or they're able to mobilize people but they can't articulate what the vision is. doesn't do you any good to have a vision if you can't get people to believe in you and follow you. when i think of leadership i think of people who have a decision, they're able to articulate it, they're able to get people to work. and they're willing to put forth whatever's necessary to make it happen. >> now, you have those attributes. and you've talked earlier about how others -- teachers, parent, community -- helped to reinforce those attitudes in you. but why doesn't everyone have these attributes? why does mary? little mary have these? and not these others? >> i think we are different people, i think that a lot of times people have these

attributes and they don't recognize them. a lot of times maybe they haven't been given the opportunity to come forward. i think that -- i think leaders come from many different perspectives. i don't think that one person necessarily is going to do everything. if it's only mary, then it's not going to work. other people have to believe as well and persuade them to come along. i've also -- i'm also a firm believer that you won't get the job done unless you include other people and listen to them and involve them rather than tell them what to do. >> it's obvious from the high school leadership positions you achieved that you were a leader then. but did you ever begin to say to yourself, or maybe you don't, i am a leader? no, i don't think so. i don't think so. >> but obviously others thought of you in that way. >> yeah. >> or they wouldn't have chosen you for these positions. >> yeah. >> when did you ever begin to think of yourself as a leader?

>> a lot of things that happened to me, julian -- chappy brand used to say, don't knock on the door of opportunity then when it opens say, wait a minute, let me get my back, when you bend down to get it somebody else is going to walk through. a lot of what has happened to me is i've been in the right place at the right time. >> surely, but you had to be in that right place. >> right, right. you know, this is kind of awkward for me, i have to say. because i view you as a leader. i knew about julian bond -- >> that's kind of you to say but this is about you. >> i know but i'm trying to make a point. the point that i'm trying to make is when i saw people like you and martin luther king and coretta scott king, you have to remember, i'm looking at tv. i'm listening to the radio. i'm hearing -- i go to virginia state college and martin luther king comes to my campus to speak. well, these are the kinds of experiences that gives you the courage and gives me the belief and says to me, you can do that. >> somebody else sees martin luther king speak and they say, hey, i can never do that. >> right. >> i can't talk like that i

can't speak like that. >> believe it or not, i couldn't either. >> somehow now that you saw him and you said, something in you said, i can do that. >> because i'm thinking, here's somebody who's -- from my neighborhood, if you understand what i'm saying. and that person could do it and they're standing up. maybe i can do it. and so you don't really go out and say, i'm the leader. but i think what happens is as you work with the groups, as you work with people, you sort of emerge. have there been opportunities when i've wanted to be the leader and i wasn't selected? yeah. have there been opportunities when i selected to be the leader and i wasn't sure i could do the job, yeah. what you try to do is when you're out there you have people who can happy you especially address those weaknesses and things that you have. when i became the president of the vea, i had not planned to be the president of the vea. and a lot of the blacks came and they said, we've been merged now for i think it was like ten years or so. we go back to this gender issue.

we think it's time for vea to have a black president. so my name was one of the ones they put forth and they also put forth a man's name. what i was told was, you should step aside. because you have not paid your dues and you're a woman and a black man should do it first. well, i must confess and say that really irritated me. because i remember asking the question, how long do i have to be around to pay my dues? because dues don't mean paying your money. and i said, well, what is being a woman have to do with it? and so i decided to run. and i was surprised when i got elected. they called me in my school and told me. i thought they were playing a joke on me. i hung up the telephone and went back to my class. they called again and i refused to go to the telephone, i was sure i didn't win. they told my principal to come get me and tell me i had won. when i ran for president of the nea i hadn't planned to be the president. traditionally it's the vice president who runs. for whatever reason the vice president decided not to.

it was the time of the nation at risk report. it was the time of all the -- the beginning of the national debate around education. and folks came and they said, look. we don't have time to educate somebody to step in and to help the nea deal with these issues. we need somebody who knows the organization and who can hit the ground running. and so they asked me to be the president. and i said, okay. i'm not sure that this is what i want to do, what i plan to do. and that's the way it happened. being the dean of the school of education, i did not plan to be the dean of the school of education. when i stepped down as president of nea i went back to school to get my degree to figure out, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? that was my strategy. five years later i'm the dean but i hadn't planned to do that. when you say, are you a leader, sometimes you say yes. because of the experiences you've had. but other times other people say yes. and then the question becomes, do you want to honor what those people are asking you to do and

try to do it? am i making my sense? >> you're making perfect sense. in some ways this is kind of a chicken/egg situation. the head of the vea is a leader. because that person is head of the vea. >> right. >> but you don't get to be head of the vea unless you're a leader. >> right. and you got a whole lot of leaders there. >> yes, indeed, you do. important leaders, people who have served in education for a long, long time. i'm curious. when the two organizations merged, the black and white organization merged, my memory is that in georgia when this happened, they agreed that one year a black person would be the president, the next year a white person would be the president, and carry this on. why did this not happen in virginia? >> because virginia was the first to merge. okay? and when we merged and again, i go back -- i was not part of that. i had not become a teacher. but they merged, they were in the process of merging before i became a teacher. and i came in as a teacher afterwards. but by the time they merged, i found out later they were the

first. and david johnson, who just stepped down, executive of the vea, he's talked to me about this. and they talked about the mistakes that they made in the merger process. and one mistake was this rotation. and some people thought that was a mistake not to put that in, others thought that it was not. because right now we've got -- we've had three black presidents of vea. elected through process. we also gave up the buildings. >> mm. >> yes, they sold the buildings, they sold everything. i've heard vea folks say that was one of the biggest mistakes they made, they should have kept the building, because that would have given them more space, more property, strengthened the financial base for the organization. >> sure. >> i don't know, i think they gave all the documentation to virginia state. but that's basically what happened. and as others merged, they looked at what had happened with vea. and then the others decided to

go every other year. as i've talked to people in north carolina and tennessee and georgia and other places, and i said why did you come up with this system, alternating? and they said, because when we looked at what virginia did and you went years without having a president, i was the first black president, they said, we didn't want to make that mistake. now, they had blacks serving on the board. they had a strategy where -- so the ones who were vta served on the vea board for a certain period of time, then it was a natural rotation. and so ours has evolved more naturally as opposed to the other way. now, there are pros and cons to that. >> sure. >> i've been in some states where when the black president is in office, only the blacks are involved. and when the white president's in office, only the whites are involved. i remember saying to them, what kind of organization is this? this is your organization but yet you're only involved when certain people are in office? it doesn't make sense. it took us a long time to get a black president, i think it was 1973, but all the people were

there. >> yeah. >> so that's -- we were first. you didn't realize that? >> i didn't realize that. i remember horace date in georgia was head of the black teachers uta, and the merger, and i wonder whether or not -- i'm struck by something you said about the building. because strikes me that this property is so important. >> yes. >> so few black institutions and organizations have any property. >> right. >> even though we have ancient organizations. >> right. >> i wonder if in other states property was maintained or reta retained. but this is a subject for somebody to right a ph.d. thesis on, the history of these organizations. >> some sold off both and built a new building. what we did is we sold off the vta building. >> when you become active in the vea, there's a minority caucus. >> no, there was not. we formed it. >> you formed a minority caucus. the minority caucus must have been controversial. >> yes. >> it must have been people who said, don't do that, you're

separating, you've just integrated, now you're separating again. >> right. >> how did you overcome that? >> the caucus really did not come into being until about ten years later. because remember, when we first merged the two, we had built into the constitution, built into the governing documents, that blacks would be on the board as well as whites. over a certain period of time. then what happened was as the blacks began to realize that their numbers were fading on the board and that they were not being replaced as they thought they were going to be replaced, that they felt there was a need for a minority caucus. but it wasn't just the governance. it was an issue around that time we were very upset about the desegregation of the schools and the fact that a lot of african-american teachers and principals were losing their jobs. very concerned about so many of the school buildings either being closed or being converted to something else. very concerned about the historical aspects of the education of blacks just not being included. and i remember being -- we met

in a hotel room. and it must have been about 15 or 20 of us. and at that time, see, here i am this little scared person trying to figure out what's going on. and so we agreed that all of us would of us, we stand up on the floor of the bea and we would make these speeches and some of the people wouldn't do it. they promised they would, but when we got there, they didn't. i remembered that i stood up and gave a speech and afterwards, a lady came up to me, said i don't know how you read your speech. your hand was shaking so violently, there's no way you could read it. that's how scared i was. a guy named reggie smith was one of the leaders of that movement. shelby gus and fritz turner. and it still exists, by the way. >> how do you deal with those people who said, hey, this is just a separatist thing.

how did you deal with that? >> one of the things i tried to do was to sit town and talk and i can be very emotional when i talk, but i had to force myself to sit dund try to get them to understand your side of it and see what's going on. what we found was that while there were a lot of people who were sympathetic, especially the teachers from the northern part of the state. we were able to persuade them to stand up and speak up. put a motion forward to force the dea to deal with what we considered to be the unfair dismissal of african-american teachers and principals and the pushing out of black kids out of school and we were able, we won, but it was a narrow vote. just sitting down and talking to people and helping them understand, a lot of them were not aware of what was going on. and so, when we began to share this information, reggie and

shelby and frit turner had collected data and were able to show that before, we had this many african-american teachers and this many principals, we had this many kids and now, look at what we have. but they sympathized with us and joined with us. there were people who were livid. they threatened to do all kinds of things and believe it not, they didn't walk away. >> a delicate line to walk in leadership. to have an organization with people who were opposed, at least separate if they weren't opposed and to be able to draw from both groups to get support, which you've done. now, how are you able to do this, to be on the one hand, a member of the minority caucus, majority white organization, how do you balance these? >> and i face -- i remember when

i ran for -- secretary of treasury and they didn't want to elect me because they didn't think i could do the job, be fair. i'd side with the minorities and i said, well, one of the things i decided to do is stick to the issues. because what they're trying to do is divert you from the issues. they could come down over here. and what i said is those of you who know me know that i will be fair and work with all the people because this organization remits whoever's president, represents all of you. when i was elect ed president o the dea and nea, i brought people together who were violently opposed to me. as well as people who were violently supporting me. i brought them together and we would sit and work on different projects. i remember having people say, i never thought i would be, only

support the people who supported you or only going to nominate black people. i said, no, in this organization, i want to views of all the members to be fair and so, i would appoint them to committees and task forces or we would go on delegations. i would also take the time to sit down and talk. sometimes, we'd get so immature, we'd refuse to speak to people. i'm so angry because you didn't spoth. no, you have the right not to support me. you have the right to support whoever you want. i may disagree your beliefs, but that doesn't stop me from being professional. i remember the second time i ran for president, a lot of people came up u to me an said wee going to support you because you did include us, you brought people together and that was how i did it. >> how happened to be at the dea at the time unionization and teacher militants, these are hot items all over the united states

and there had to be people in virginia and the national government, the federal government, who said this is just awful. this is terrible. and virginia prohibits ewunion saix of teachers. >> that came about when i was president. virginia is a noncollective bargaining state and when i became president, big state and i think it was governor -- looked at the area with the strongest contracts for all public employees. that was the northern part of the state and they picked arlington and while i was president, that's when they, the court decision came down. nullifying all the agreements and so, it didn't matter what we had negotiated. it was gone. we tried to ask them could we not simply live out the remainder of the life of the contract and the answer was no. as of this date, it's over. you have no negotiated agreement.

and we basically said that's not going to stop the organization from organizing, that's not going to stop people from coming together. that's not going to stop people from standing up for their rights and i used this as part of my argument. our coming together and bringing forth issues of relevance to organization and -- have strengthened profession and it's not just the collective arguing of bread and butter issues. equally important is are we able to provide quality education. will say if you belong to a union, you only care about your salary, you fringe benefits. that's not true. part of the whole process is to give teachers a voice and the decision making process as it relates to the progression, what's taught, where it's taught, the conditions under

which we work. the teaching conditions are the same taz learning conditions and use it for that purpose. there are a lot of people who still oppose to the unions. but if you look at the teachers, we're the most organized people in the united states of america, but other work areas have dropped. i think because we have balanced the issues. >> there had to be some teachers who said i'm a professional. it's only -- carpenters who belong to the union. not me, i'm a professional person. we don't have unions. >> and if you're in the south, you hear the organization referred to as professional organizations and they abhor the word, union. you don't hear the word youn on. then when we come together as a national body, here we are together and so, you're statement is correct.

there are people who have difficulty with the word, union and they have particular difficulty with the teachers organization being afituated with the aflcio and nea is independent, aft is part of the aflcio. if the merger comes together, nea will broebl go into the aflcio. what i hope and pray is that they never lose their mission and it's to improve the quality of education for the children of america. and i don't think they will. >> it's not really a part of what we're talking about, but why didn't that merger go through? >> my personal opinion, i don't think the leaders rushed it and it was almost like a done deal. as opposed to this is the strategy we'd like to use. get their approval, do it and come back. >> i don't know you don't want to say this, but you're saying this is a leadership failure. >> yeah. i've said that. >> okay. now, how does do leaders, let me ask you a different question.

people talk about leaders in different ways. there's some leaders who cause great events to happen. there are some leaders who come out of great events and there are some leaders that something happens and bam, a leadership fig yur emerges. do you fit into any of those categories? >> i probably fit into several of them. for example, i think that my talt chur as a leader was elevated because of a negative event and it was when the state support took away collective bargaining, it was the first time the teechlers had been led at a mass demonstration from a statewide perspective and a lot of people were looking at, well, what is virginia going to do. are the teachers just going to roll over and accept this and not doing anything? well, people were shocked when the teachers came together to protest what had happened as

well as the protests at the time that were enormous cuts being made in education. that was the first time it had happened. so a negative event helped to catapult me as a leader. there have also been situations where, you know, you're just in the right place at the right time. so i think there have been several instances where, if you put it all together, there is no one way to define how did you get to be this person. >> but, you know, regardless of which way you emerged, leaders emerge, in one of these following ways. it's fair to say each of these ways touched on you in some way. but can you look back over your life to date, think about that march in richmond, 7,000 teachers, think about the arguments that you had as head of the nea with william bennett. another negative event. has there been any common theme running through these things?

i'm not sure i am asking a coherent question. >> i think a common theme for me, and for what i've heard people say, is a willingness to stand up and to fight not only for what you believe is right but to fight for the quote-unquote the people. the people being the teachers, the members and the children. being willing to stand up and speak out for what you believe is right. and so when i look at the common themes and i look at -- and i listen to people and why they say they supported me or why they say they remember the things that i did, these -- those are the kinds of comments that i get back. >> i look at you now, and obviously you're poised, self-confident, articulate. it's hard for me to balance that with someone whose hand is shaking so badly that people wonder that you can make a speech. how did you go from that to this? >> well, you know -- let me give you an example. i spoke a moment ago about reggie smith, who was, by the way, who grew up in -- longwood, farmville.

reggie is dead now. and i remember once i went to give a speech -- i had my speech. and i put it on the chair to go look at something. and while i was over looking at something someone took my speech. and as i realized the speech was gone, they called on me to get up and speak. i was forced to get up and speak without the paper. and i remember distinctly that reggie kept looking out the window. he would never look at me the whole time i was speaking. so when i finished and stepped down i said, reggie, i said, what happened to my speech? he said, i am going to tell you the truth, i took it. it was about time you learned to stand up and say what you had to say without a piece of paper. that's the honest truth. he said to me, you don't believe that you have the confidence to do these things, and he said, i think you do. and so, i mean, that's a small thing. but then, you know, as you become more confident, well, i

know the subject, i know the people, i know the organization, and you build more confidence in yourself, then you stand up and you speak out. you have to understand, in education -- and i know you are aware that there are hundreds of issues. you can't be an expert on all of them. so you have to be able to say, now, where is my niche and what can i do? even in the teachers' organization. where is my niche and what can i do. i had to learn how to stand up and give a speech. or even if i have one, you don't have to go through it verbatim. but i mean, those were frivolous things to happen but that's exactly what happened. >> can you imagine what would have happened on that occasion if you had stumbled and bumbled and -- >> i probably did. >> i bet you didn't. >> i remember the people, they were -- they were laughing at reggie. we didn't think you had the courage to do it. >> now, another attribute of

leadership is the ability to persuade other people. >> yes. >> -- to do something that they may not have wanted to do otherwise. >> right. >> now, can you remember early attempts at doing this, to get a group to change their mind or to adopt a position that you think they didn't? >> yes. >> how did you -- okay. >> i can remember two. one was nea had had a position on their books for a long time opposing testing. and they used as the primary rationale for the opposition the negative impact it has on blacks. and i decided to oppose that because my point was the message that's being sent, whether on purpose or not, said we can't learn, we can't pass tests. the motion -- the motion ought -- the policy ought to be what kinds of things do we think

ought to be in place in order to make sure we can pass these tests and how do we make sure the tests are fair and what role should we play in developing these tests. and i remember a lot of the blacks who were at the nea convention were very upset with me because i was bringing this forward. i said, i don't want anyone to ever, ever be of the opinion that i as a black person or black kids can't learn, that we can't pass tests. we ought to make sure the tests are fair, et cetera. after talking with them, they agreed. so the motion passed. and we put together a task force to look at testing and how do we work with different companies but also how do we work with school districts to help minority kids pass tests. another example was, you may have heard about the national board for professional teaching standards, which was put forth by the carnegie corporation. >> yes. >> well, when we went into the board -- you don't know this part. i was opposed vehemently for that board. now, nea had for years supported state standards boards.

so i was puzzled as to why we were now opposing the national standards board if we were supporting state standards boards for as long as i could remember. we had members of the executive committee and members of the board who were absolutely diametrically opposed to the concept. i remember saying, if we oppose the national board no one will ever believe again that we are sincerely concerned about the quality of education in this country because the message we will have sent is yes, we're for standards and quality but don't try to put inequality on the teaching profession. the vote was maybe 60/40 against the board. i was determined that we were not going to fail. so i made it a point of going around -- by the way, i bypassed the executive committee and i made my appeal to the board and i persuaded the board to support it. again, i used the argument, you can't say you're for change if you oppose it. then i went to the urban caucus because they were opposed. i went to the black caucus, the women's caucus, the higher ed caucus. they were furious about the

standards board. they are fear was eventually they'd have to go for national standards and required to be certified. i'll tell you what i did. i told them -- and it was true at the time -- there had been no discussion of higher education faculty having to go through national certification. they said, if you will go on the floor and say that and then say that nea will not advocate for this, we will support you. we will actively support you. i said fine. when it got to that issue on the floor from the audience, from the delegation, they put the question to me in front of 10,000 people. i repeated what i said. they asked me to say it again just to make sure i wasn't trying to use tricky words. and i did. and i had also talked to the urbans about the kinds of things we were going to do. we turned the vote. the vote turned to be 80 for, 20 against. >> i remember the fears fears opposition black teachers had to -- the national teachers exam.

>> right. >> the high failure rate of black teachers. >> right. >> surely there must have been some people in the 20 -- 80/20, in the 20 who couldn't reconcile themselves to this. >> and there still are. >> did you ever able to convince any of the 20 to join the 80 even after the vote was taken? >> on the national standards board. the answer is yes. and what we promised was that the nea would set aside resources to support teachers going through the national certification process. now, the nte and mbts are two separate documents. what i said to them on the nte was i oppose the nte. i don't think it's a fair way to assess whether or not teachers can teach. so you oppose the nte but what do you support? you can't always say what you oppose. what do you support. so what would nea and its

members support in the way of assessing whether or not teachers know and are able to teach that which they are supposed to teach. so that was the position that i took. i said, when we put together this task force we're going to make sure that there are representatives from all parts of the country, from all of the diverse groups in the nea, different educational levels so we come together and advocate for what we believe and not simply say we oppose something. that was basically the way we did that. we began to work more closely for example with the college board, with ets, we worked with the fair testing association because we agreed that the test should be fair, not just for teachers but for children as well. so how do we use our resources to make sure that tests are not -- are as biased free as possible. every test is biased. there are no unbiased tests. it's not just a matter of saying you oppose, but what do you support?

that's the way we got the teachers involved and got them to be supportive. i remember joe reed, a good friend of mine from alabama, he came up to me, he had his hands in his pockets. he said, mary futrell, i can't believe you are advocating this, but he said i have confidence in you. and if you think this is what we should do and if you are willing to put this task force in and set aside the resources i will talk to the alabama delegation. and i knew he was upset when i saw him. when he told me that, i just gave him a hug because -- >> what you're describing is a consultative process where the people who are against are talked to and, even though they have different arguments, you manage to say, well, i'm going to meet this argument this way and meet this argument this way. >> right. >> how did you develop this style? does it go back to early leadership positions? high school? student government? >> well, i think it came about because, as i worked with people -- again, i may disagree with you, but i can disagree with you without being disagreeable. i need to respect you. i need to listen to you. and even though we may disagree on the issue, we maybe can agree on how to respond to the basic

concepts contained there. the concept there was how do we make sure that there is accountability. and how do we make sure that whatever we're doing is fair. the people weren't opposed to that. one of the things that i said to the teachers, julian, we give tests all the time. as a teacher, i test maybe once every week. so how can i say i am opposed to testing. what i want to make sure that i do is i'm testing that on which i have taught and which the kids know. so i try to approach it from that perspective. and not disrespect them because they don't agree with me or because we may be at this point in time have not decided how to move forward. but let's sit down and try to work it out. let's sit down and try to figure out what it is we should do. the standards board was the perfect example. the minorities were very concerned. the blacks. i say minorities because we have hispanics, blacks, asians. they were concerned about the

impact of the certification process on teachers. what do we do about the rural and urban areas where we have high concentrations. i said first of all, this is a good idea. we supported it at the state level for 20 years. now we're simply saying let's deal with it at the national level. let's make sure the resources are there. nea must make a commitment to the states and to the locals to provide support, resources, training, information, whatever we need to do. and then what i said, i think -- and we're seeing this happen now -- teachers who pass ought to be able to earn some more money. they ought to be able to do different kinds of things but remain part of the classroom and part of the profession. those things were also persuasive. >> was there ever an occasion for, in order to get something, you had to give something, in

any of these leadership roles? >> yeah. i gave something on the national board when i promised the higher ed folks they wouldn't have to be assessed. now that issue has come up again and some of them are asking, why can't we go through this process and they're beginning to ask, well, we're going to teach people how to become nationally certified. should we not demonstrate we can be nationally certified? the whole process is give and take, the whole process. you can't expect to win everything. the other thing that i learned in all of this, because you don't win all the time -- rise above. you know, don't take it personally because somebody maybe didn't do what you wanted them to do. if you put five items out there, most people will not win five. if you win three and which ones do you really want to win? so which ones are you willing to give up or to lose and which ones are you going to fight to the death to win. so you go out there and, as you deal with these people, you're dealing with them from a point of view of, yeah, i may not have

won that one but we're still going to work together and i am going to try to get your support on this one over here and try to be persuasive. and i am going to be very honest. i never went on the floor without having a strategy. >> don't you have to learn this? >> yes! >> you don't automatically approach things, or most people don't automatically approach things by saying, i can't win everything. i'm going to -- how do you learn this? >> you learn through experience and trial and error. not through winning and losing but that's basically the way it happens. for example, even in the local association or even in the state association or even now when i am working at the dean's level, as a dean i don't expect to win every battle, but what are the key things and have i done my best to offer the best arguments as to why we should do a certain thing. and have i talked to the key people and have i -- do i know where the people are who are opposing and why they are opposed? do i know who the people are who are supporting and why they support. what are the resources to do all this. it's not just a matter of getting up and giving a

magnanimous speech and saying, these are the things i want to do. what's the strategy for winning? now, winning also might mean i have prepared this document. this is my proposal. am i willing to negotiate certain parts of it? am i willing to compromise on certain parts? yes, as long as the basic idea is still there. where you lose a lot of times, it's "i'm not going to change anything." if it's not exactly as it is i'm not changing it. that's where you lose. or i'm not going to listen to you. that's where you lose. or if you get up and put someone down. i used to work with a parliamentarian. he would say, whatever you do, mary, be fair, listen and don't ever think that you are so high above them that what they say is not worth listening to. the first couple of times -- sometimes somebody says something and you want to smirk. he said, because people are watching you. he said, as long as you're fair and they know you're trying to get others involved and you're trying to listen, they'll usually go along with you. they may not be quite sure of what it is that's being proposed

but they'll trust you and trust whatever you're trying to do. i found that that worked. i found that, when people got up and if it's not my way and they get mad, for the next hour or two, you're going to lose everything. if people say, okay, she didn't get all she wanted or maybe she didn't win on this one but there are other things coming up. sometimes out of sympathy they'll give you the other things. you have to understand that and you have to understand you're not the only player. and as jim harris, the other black president of nea said at one time, the lord giveth and taketh away. you're there by virtue of the fact that they put you there. just because you're there doesn't mean they have to buy everything you say. >> let me ask you if you think what you've been describing to us is particularly what others have called a gendered style of leadership as opposed to a masculine style of leadership. is that -- do you think what you've been describing and is that what your leadership has represented? >> i think that it's probably a

combination of the two. because most of the leaders with whom i have worked have been males. and i am not the first female president of the nea and nor am i the -- was i the first female president of the vea. i know i'm not the first minority president of the nea. there have been four. a lot of people don't know that. but some of it i think is gender based in that i think women tend to be more willing to sit down and try to talk it through and work it out. i think women will be more concerned about a person's feelings and not just hammering somebody and -- or putting someone down. i think women are probably more willing to look at different approaches to things. and that doesn't -- i don't think that's a sign of weakness. matter of fact, what i find when i read reports by business people they talk about the ability to go in and deal with the environment and the people there and to work with the different ideas as opposed to coming in and being very autocratic. i think it's a combination of the two.

i have learned a lot from watching the men and how do you deal with the issues and stand up but i have also learned from the women. and i've seen very strong women as leaders. >> among these people who were your predecessors or other people with whom you have worked even before the vea, are there particular mentors or even models that you followed? >> yeah. one of the things that -- well, one person i really, really influenced me a great deal was a woman named laurie winn in milwaukee. she was the head of the black caucus in nea for a long time. i'm going to confess and say, until i saw laurie as a leader, i had never really seen a woman or maybe paid attention to a woman in a national dynamic leadership role. but she was something else. i mean, laurie challenged a

whole nea structure. if you don't involve more minorities, if you don't do this, we'll walk out. they didn't believe it, and she led a march. i was part of the group that walked out. she was -- and they -- the aft, al shanker indicated he wanted to challenge and debate the leadership of the nea on the floor of the representative assembly. and i found it interesting that, when they decided who would debate him, they picked laurie winn, an african-american woman on the executive committee rather than the president or vice president. she debated him. her strategy was interesting. she talked about children. when she finished there was a standing occasion. laurie also taught us -- >> what did shanker talk about? >> he talked more about education in general and about the organization. but i remember laurie talking to

us about leadership. nea used to have all these minority leadership conferences that we used to go to. i remember going to the meetings and laurie would say things like -- she said, you know, we have to be super good. and so i remember some of us sitting in the audience saying, what do you mean? if i am equal, i'm equal. she said no. for us to achieve at the same level as others, we have to be super good. whatever we do, we have to be doubly good. if you're going to be a leader, you have to be doubly good. she also was saying -- and whether this is true or not -- that we oftentimes come in as leaders when the organization is in trouble. so you're coming in and you have spent a lot of your time just trying to rescue the organization. >> now, she is talking to you as minorities? >> right. >> or as minorities many of whom are women? you always hear in order for a woman to succeed she has to be twice as good as the men. >> this was the whole group. she is talking to us as a group. i was tremendously impressed with price. one of the -- because -- let's face it, i deal with a lot of racism and a lot of discrimination.

i was saying to somebody not long ago. it doesn't matter how high you climb, you still deal with it. one of the things that's kept me going and whenever i deal with it. i think about miss price, marion anderson, i'm sorry. marion anderson, after being denied the right to sing at the dnr. she went to the steps of the lincoln memorial. they said some people say this is racism. and they said, well, why? do you think it's racism? she said yes. they said why. they said, what is racism. she said it's like a breeze that blows across your face, you can't see it or touch it but you know it's there. a lot of people, when they hear that -- i don't know what they hear but i hear two things. it's ever-present and it doesn't matter how high you climb. it's there. marion anderson was a diva,

recognized all over the world, yet she was denied this right. sometimes when i have to deal with racism and discrimination and gender whatever, i think about her and how she dealt with it. i think about mary mccloud bethune and how almost out of nothing she started a college and what a tremendous impact she had on presidents of the united states. here was a gentle woman but a powerful woman. i think about coretta scott king. i worked with her as president of the nea. how much i admired this woman who through her own sheer determination was determined that her husband's legacy was going to live on. i think about a lot of people who have influenced me. and i listen carefully to what they've experienced and what house happened to them. i learn patience, determination, i learned to speak up. i learned to express my emotions without being viewed as a woman who is overly emotional. i have learned to fight for what i believe in. i have learned to work with people. i mean, when i look at them, i have learned all kinds of things. >> now, is there a different

style that you might have adopted had you been head or a member of a different kind of organization? after all, you're talking about organizations whose constituency is overwhelmingly female. >> mm-hmm. but whose leadership is not. >> but suppose you had been -- i'm just grasping here, a plumber. overwhelmingly male. do you think you might have developed something different? >> knowing me, i probably would have been pushing for the top, pushing to make a difference, pushing -- >> in a different style? >> maybe in a different style. i would be questioning why can't women do this. you're right. the profession is 75% female even though most of the leaders are males. that has to do with women feeling that men should be the head and we should step back. i always asked the question why.

why do i have to be at the back. why can't i walk beside julian. why do i have to walk behind him? as some of the male professions you have women who have come out and had to fight to open the door and to make a difference for other women. and what i always say is, yes, you fight to open the door, but then you don't close it behind you. when you open the door, open the door and keep it open and help other women, other minorities, other leaders, come through. i think it's wrong to open the door and then let yourself in and that's it. when i think about -- i look at other women, and i can't remember names off the top of my head, but i can think about communications workers, in the police force, i can think about in the construction industry, where women have made a difference and they've been willing to put themselves out there. and being a leader doesn't mean you always have to be up front. doesn't mean you're always standing behind the podium. a leader is a person who is willing to take the day or take the chance and put on those construction pants and the helmet and get out there and say, i can do this too.

>> let me ask you about different strategies you may -- leadership strategies or styles you may employ depending on the group you're dealing with. for example, you're active in both the minority caucus of the vea and the vea. now, are you different when dealing with these two groups? do you have a different style? >> i don't think so. when i am dealing with the minority caucus, the black caucus in the nea or vea or whatever, i tend to say to them, this is -- these are the issues. now, what i will do is give them maybe more detailed information and make sure they have all the information they need about the strategy on why we're doing what we're doing. and then, when i go on the floor, i am going to provide the same information but probably not in as much detail because i am not going to have the opportunity to give it in as much detail. my advocacy for issues related to blacks or minorities hasn't changed over the last 30-some years.

and people who know me know that that's where i am going to speak. sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree. i think that anyone who is a leader, there are opportunities where you sit down and you can talk to somebody and be more candid, more private. do i do that? the answer is yes. the answer is absolutely yes. and there are certain people within the black caucus at the vea level and national level with whom i sit down and have those conversations and make sure they have the detailed information, et cetera. on the floor i might not be as detailed but it's basically the same kind of information. why do i do that? let's face the reality. doesn't matter what size group you're dealing with, that information will get out, and the last thing you need to do is to get up on the floor and be caught in a lie. or be caught that you distorted or you're not sharing the whole truth. and so you have to be very careful about that. but whoever the audience is with whom i am dealing, they know

that i am going to deal with those issues related to equity, et cetera, so they know that that's there. >> what about style as opposed to substance? >> style. >> if i am speaking to an all-black audience, i'm going to speak in one way. >> right. >> if i am speaking to an integrated audience or an audience that's overwhelmingly white i'm speaking in a different way. i don't think it's even conscious. >> when i am speaking to a predominantly black audience i'm going to probably let my hair down and be more mary the black person, you know. >> yes. yes. >> the style i use, the tone. but the message is not different. >> right. >> okay? when i am speaking over here, i am maybe going to use a different style, et cetera. but in every instance it's going to be very professional. it's going to be basically the same message. and again, i say that because the message gets out. >> the substance is the same. >> right. the style is different. >> the style and presentation may be different. >> yes. and let me say this.

when i am dealing with the caucus -- all the strategizing doesn't take place in the formal meeting. a lot of the strategizing takes place in an informal environment when we've kicked back, with our shoes off and we're eating. it sounds like a general conversation but it's probably not a general conversation. we're talking about the issues. but i'm going to be much more laid-back and candid, whatever, than i would be able to be out on the floor. >> back to an earlier conversation. how much of this -- or can you divide how much of this is gendered, how much is racial, how much is professional and the styles you employ, how do you -- do you shift from one to the other to the other where gender is more important, where race is more important, where profession is more important? or are they mixed? >> i think i tend to integrate them.

when i get up and i talk, first i'm going to be very professional. doesn't matter what the audience is. i'm going to be very professional. secondly, when i get up and talk, you see a person, you see an image. you know who is talking to you. so how you say what you say is going to be interpreted different ways. might be interpreted -- when i talk about children, people are probably going to say that's more of a female. when i talk about civil rights, the struggles and women's rights, there goes more the militant mary. there goes more of the -- of the ethnic mary, you know, the gender. so i think it's -- sometimes it depends on what i am talking about. and i can deliver a speech and you can see me in those different roles in that speech. but the roles are not necessarily the same all the way through. am i making sense? >> yes, you are making sense. you're able in one speech to be a woman, a teacher.

>> yes. >> an educational leader, a black person. >> a union leader. >> you can be all those things but not all at the same time. but there must be some times when you're all those people at the same time. >> when it comes together, this is mary. as she is speaking. i am always going to talk about children. okay. that's the teacher in me. and that's probably a lot of the feminism in me, but i am also going to talk about the equity issues and the equity issues will be issues around women and minorities and about quality and opportunity and those kinds of things. i can also talk very much about the union issues and how those issues relate to, for example, the teaching. how they relate to the equity pieces. you know. i do a lot of -- i do a lot of international work. i head of the international teachers union. one of the things i find myself constantly doing is trying to bring together the disparate groups with very, very different educational opportunities and backgrounds, very, very

different opportunities to organize, very, very different cultures, et cetera. you have to bring them all together. what you find yourself doing is, as i am an advocate for the women, to get more women into leadership roles. that's part of my speech. i'm an advocate for equal educational opportunities for children. that's part of my speech. i am an advocate for us to be more involved and supportive and have stronger organizations, unions. that's part of my speech. i am an advocate for us being more politically involved. all of those things come together. what you're looking at, when you look at mary, you're looking at mary with all these different pieces and i think they fit together. >> are there not times when people say, she is just a little too black for me. >> yes. >> other people say, you know, i don't think she is black enough. >> yes. >> what do you say to people who say either one of those things? you're just old union leader. >> what i generally do is not say probably a whole lot of anything but try to use my actions to speak for me. and it hurts.

i'm going to be very honest with you. it hurts when people either say directly to you or they intimate or whatever they do that she is not black enough or she is not union enough or she is not professional enough. it hurts. it's like, what else do i need to do? what else do i need to say? you're trying to get people to understand that, when you are the leader of a group like vea, nea or education international or george washington university school of ed, you're not representing any one group. and what you've got to do is bring all the groups together. now, how do you bring the groups together? you have to do that because you have to role-model what you want to happen and how do you get them to work to support certain issues. but does it happen? yes. you're too union. classic example. the colleges and universities are now dealing with unionizing t.a.s, teaching assistants. i am the only person in the room who has a union background. and so as they start talking, everybody is kind of like watching me. and i'm feeling very uncomfortable because everybody

is watching me. they don't know what i'm going to say. so i finally devised the strategy is i'm not going to say anything. if you ask me, however, i'm going to be very honest with you about i think they have the right to organize. that's a part of the freedom of speech, you know. but you feel very uncomfortable. everybody is sitting there looking at you, and you feel guilty. even though you've done nothing 0i d skae sxwrooef wrong. or you're sitting in the room and they start talking about ethnicity or race or things like that. >> and they look at you. >> and they all look at me. >> you have to be the expert. >> so what i do is, don't ask me a question unless you want the answer. if you want the answer, you're going to get my answer. >> isn't there an occasion where you say, don't ask me that question. because just because of the way i look or who i am. ask joe, frank, or sue. >> or it's a moot issue. or if i'm not the token black, i'm not the token woman. because up until this year i was the token woman and the token minority. i'm going like, well, i am not the only person who should answer this question. in reality, you ought to answer

this question. i don't have a problem. you got the problem. how are you going to deal with this issue. but it makes you feel very uncomfortable that you are being put on the spot. >> how do you dodge being put on the spot on the one hand, you do represent black people. you do represent unionized professional workers, you do represent organized teachers. i look to you to ask you questions about them. how do you defer the question and say, listen, somebody else needs to answer that question? can you always say it's your problem, not mine? >> no, i don't think you can. >> you are the expert in some ways. >> usually what i'll say is i will give you my opinion. my opinion does not necessarily means that this is the opinion. i'll give you an example. i was in a meeting a month or so ago and they started talking about discipline in the schools. it very quickly shifted to teachers. and it shifted to the way teachers dress. and then it very quickly shifted to the union. so someone looked directly at

me, well, what has the union done about the way teachers dress and how it relates to discipline? i was very uncomfortable. i haven't been active in the union at the national level for ten years. why are you asking me that question? someone reached over and said, mary, don't get upset. so what i said, it's really been quite a while and i can't give you an up-to-date account about what the unions are saying about the way the teachers dress but if you would like me to get the information i will. if i had responded right away, it would have been a reaction to what they said and would probably have been very negative. >> now, let me take you back to some earlier discussions, take you back to your tenure at the nea. during this time bill bennett is one of the education secretaries. and you give him at the end of his tenure, i think, the worst grades of all the reagan era education secretaries. he is constantly battling with the nea and with organized

teachers. was there ever a time when you thought, gee, we're losing this public relations battle and we need to regroup? >> right. >> how did you take the temperature? >> the answer to your question is yes. and there was a lot of frustration, sense of despair, a sense of it doesn't matter what we say, the message is not getting out. finally, i said to the executive committee and the staff and eventually to the board, we have to stop talking about what we're against. because at that time everything came out and we were against it. i remember reading the nation at risk report and saying, why are we opposing this? i might not agree with everything here but there are a lot of good ideas here. it wasn't so much opposing the product, it was opposing who put the product forward. i said, what -- i said, i don't care who put it forward. are there things here we can

support. we need to start talking about things we support and we believe in, et cetera, and make sure to put a positive spin on it. but there were times when you felt like you were just getting beaten down into the ground, and there were days you would wake up and say what battle do i have to fight today. why do i always have to fight a battle. why can't there be days when i am not fighting a battle and we're just enjoying life and doing some good and creative things. it took a while to turn the situation around. i also had to learn to temper myself because i can be very hot-headed and very heated when i get into conversations, especially if i feel strongly about something. and i had to learn how not to over react. i had to learn how to do things like not always be the first one to respond. let somebody respond first and see what they're going to say. you don't always have to jump out there. it took a while to do that. but eventually -- by the time i got to my second term that things had begun to turn and we were coming out with more positive statements and we were getting more positive press.

a lot of the focus was also on teachers and what they're doing in schools, talk about the positive things teachers are doing. and it began to turn, but it took a while. some days it was absolutely grueling. >> now, is this because teachers were on the defensive? >> yes. >> how did teachers get put in the defensive and how did you put them on the offensive? >> well, you have to remember that there was a sustained attack on public education. and when you attack public education, you are attacking teachers. it's interesting how it's not the superintendent, it's not the principal or these other people. the people who get attacked are the teachers, who have less to do with the decision-making process than anyone else. so what i would do is talk about the positive things teachers were doing. i spent a lot of time visiting schools and talking with teachers. you would build some of those into your speeches and you were

able to give concrete examples of things teachers were doing that were very positive. the amount of time teachers spend working with children, the amount of time and money teachers invest in trying to compensate for what the schools are not providing. how teachers are trying to be more innovative and how teachers are involved in their communities, et cetera. and so you start talking about it from a positive perspective. talk about the fact that teachers want high standards, teachers want students to achieve as opposed to we are opposed all the time and begin to approach it from that perspective and looking at it from a positive position. >> let me take you back to an earlier discussion and, again, that's about race. how has being a black person affected the leadership style you have employed over these years, your present position? you talked a moment ago about being the black expert in the room. how has race generally affected the leadership style you have employed? >> well, a lot of people expect blacks to be -- lack knowledge, specifics. they also expect us to be very

emotional and very hot-headed. we can't have a civil conversation. a lot of people anticipate that we are going to be more physically involved in what we are doing, et cetera, that we are not going to do our homework. more concerned with the way we look and the glitter and the glamour than the substance. i found myself doing that. but i had some interesting mentors. i was serving on a committee with ernie bauer. i was a teacher. it was a golden opportunity. there were two or three teachers on the whole committee. every time they'd get to something about teachers i would get passionate and i would pound the table. somebody said to me one day, let's go for a walk behind the barn. this is the honest truth. they said to me, mary, you're very good but you are destroying your message because you get too emotional and you are too

demonstrative. and people are focusing more on your emotions and your demonstrations than they are on what you are saying. so no one is hearing what you're saying. >> mm-hmm. >> if you continue to do that, you will turn people off. and they won't listen to you. and so their point was you need to find a way to express yourself without doing it that way. and that's -- that was -- they said to me, a lot of people expect blacks to respond that way. when you -- when you can't express yourself, you get loud, you -- you use -- maybe you use profanity or you want to hit someone or you want to walk out of the room. i was shocked when they said that to me. then they said, we're not saying this to criticize you. we're saying this as friends. and when i stopped and reflected on it. i went back to my room and i cried. the next day i don't think i said very much in the meeting. when i reflected on it, they were telling the truth. i had to learn how to calm myself down, not learn how to be

part of the stereotype. but are there times when i think you show emotions and have to do certain things? the answer is yes. so i -- i don't disagree with some of the things that they observed, but at the same time i said, well, there are times for this. >> now, you are celebrated because the -- not the first black person -- the first black person to rise to these positions of prominence. and "ebony" magazine chooses you as one of the top 100 black leaders in america. but would you describe yourself as a black leader or a leader who is black? >> hmm. that's an interesting question. what's the difference between the two? >> tell me. a black leader or a leader of blacks? i think a leader of blacks means i am trying to carry the message for the black community. trying to express what i believe are the concerns of the black community.

a black leader basically is more, i think, one of persona, who i am. i guess the question i would ask is, can you separate the two? >> can you? >> i don't think you can. >> but can you be one sometime and one the other? >> i guess what i was going to say was can we stereotype black leaders? can we assume that all black leaders act a certain way. i am a black leader because of who i am. and i would like to think that i am a leader of blacks because i advocate for issues that i know are of concern to the black community. >> are you also a leader who just happens to be black? when you stood up as head of the nea and talked about teachers and more pay or higher standards or whatever, you're not a black person there, are you? i mean, you are -- people look at you and tell, that's a black person. >> they look at me and they say,

that's mary. >> yes. and you're speaking for teachers, and teachers are black, white, brown, everything. >> i think most people would probably say that's mary. and she is speaking for the profession, et cetera. i think there are a lot of blacks, though, who would say -- and it's also for women. a lot of blacks who would say she is speaking for us, she is -- she represents us. >> right. >> and there are women who would say the same thing. she is speaking for us. she represents us. i think a lot of it depends on the audience and what the audience wants to see. and most people, though, will probably say that's mary. you ask, how do you define mary? i'm not sure that they would say she is mary the black person or mary the woman. i think they would probably say mary the teacher, the educator, et cetera. >> now, you became the head of the national organization to push passage of the e.r.a. >> right. >> of course, it never passes. >> right. >> are there ever people who say, gee, that's not a real teachers' issue, that's women's issue and you shouldn't be

involved in that. you're supposed to be looking out for the interests of teachers. teachers are men and women. why are you doing this? >> i say because we believe strongly in equal rights and that a person should not be judged on the basis of color or sex or whatever. i would say, if you want to look at the teaching profession -- the pay is different. for years it was different as it related to elementary versus secondary and males versus females. in the last 25 years we've basically equalized pay finally. when you look at the profession you have to look at the way girls are treated in schools and how we're often told that we cannot achieve because we are females. when i look at the women's movement, i look at it as a movement which encompasses the teaching profession encompasses the female and male students that we teach. but primarily i looked at it from a point of view of, if i can't have equal rights as a

woman, why do i think i can have equal rights as a minority or anything -- or vice versa? if i can't equal rights as a black person, why do i think somebody is going to have equal rights as a woman. so i was often -- you asked me a moment ago about looking are you black or are you what. i probably, julian, was forced more often to deal with the minority and the female piece. and i know that the community was divided. do we stand up for the african-american community and not deal with women, or do we stand up for women? i used to say to people, how do i separate myself? i am both. i am a woman and i am an african-american. so i cannot separate myself. >> are there times when you feel divided, though? >> there are times when i felt like people wanted to divide me. >> never yourself? >> i don't think i felt divided. you have to remember something about me. i was raised in a female headed household. >> with sisters.

>> right. with sisters. i didn't have any brothers. my father died when i was 4 1/2 years old. my mother's brothers didn't live with us. i was raised predominantly in a female head of household. my perspective about women is probably different from the perspective that other people may have about the role of women and black. my mother was the head. my mother was the leader. my mother was -- she was the one out there making the difference. >> um. now, i am trying to wrap up a lot of things in a very few minutes. you have talked about yourself as the beneficiary of civil rights activists and have expressed concern that young people don't seem to appreciate this legacy. how could we make them or should we make them. some people say it's great that young people don't remember the segregation era. they shouldn't. they didn't live through it. let them go forward in this different world. >> well, let me give you two examples. three years ago george washington university celebrated the 30th anniversary of the march on washington. we had a number of the civil rights people come back and we

invited students to come. one of the things that really surprised me was, number one, a lot of the students didn't come. those who did said, in the end, why have you not done these kinds of things before. what are you telling us here, this is the first we've heard of it. and if you don't tell us about what it was like and what the struggle has been and what we have achieved, we just assume this is the way it's been. these were like high school and undergraduate students tell us these things. so part of the problem is ours. we have not been vigilant about making sure that future generations understand what it was like and what the struggle was and how much we've achieved. >> i've already heard people of the younger generation and not quite so young, 20s and 30s, say i'm tired of this stuff. >> right. you hear them say it about -- this is the way it's always been. i don't care about the struggle. et cetera, et cetera. what i try to say to them, if you don't care, you'll lose it. if you don't continue the struggle and the struggle isn't over you can't complain when all

of a sudden what you thought you had isn't there. a way to look at it is what's happening with the election. if you don't go out and vote, then when somebody takes the vote away from you, you have lost. you can't go back now. you look at jobs, opportunities to live where you want to live. all of these things did not just simply happen. somebody had to fight for them to happen. if you don't continue to fight, they won't stay there. and it's not just with minorities. i hear the same thing with women. i'm tired of people talking about the women's movement. as if we have always been able to be in these different positions. but not lecture, but involve. you know, my kids, when i go -- i still demonstrate. when i go, i take them with me so they can see what it's like, they can understand what it's like, they can be there and be part of it. and that's part of what i think we have to do. but the fight is not necessarily one that's always in the streets. it has to be in the schoolhouse,

has to be in the courthouse, in the political arena. it has to be everywhere. you know that better than i do. >> how did you learn that it had to be everyy wr? because some don't than i do. >> i learned it from virginia state college which is now virginia state university. when i went to virginia state, we had not in a lot of demonstrations in lynchburg. it was almost unheard of for backs to stand up and demonstrate. at virginia state we did. we sat in and marched and paraded and had rallies on campus and we brought people in. and all of a sudden, here was this world that i didn't know existed. and i was part of it. and so, you know, a lot of us in those days made commitments. and those commitments, as long as there was a need, we'd be there. so that's where we are. >> some people would say that we don't have either the opportunity to develop leadership as the kind of opportunity you just described or nor do we have people who

aspire to leadership in the same sort of way. if that's so, and i'm guessing it's so, how can we create the opportunity to see that somebody comes up after us, somebody else develops the way you've developed, somebody -- circumstances so different. nobody's growing up in a segregated world now nurtured by teachers in the same way i don't think as you were and nurtured by a community in the same way you and i were. how do we -- what do we replace that with, or can we replace it with anything? >> i guess i would answer that by saying how do we pass on traditions to our children. >> yes. >> how do we make sure that they know and understand the legacy from which they come? how? and you do that through the way you teach them, the way you raise them, the things to which you expose them. you teach them by giving them opportunities by taking them along and involving them and not leaving them at home looking at tv. i went to the rally that they had in washington in august. and i'm going to tell you two things that pleased me.

one, i was pleased with the turnout. there were a lot of people, a lot of faces. i would have liked to have had the march because i think the freedom sing and the freedom song part of that helps. but i was also very impressed with the new leaders there. a lot of them i had not really followed, but i was impressed with who was there and what they had to say and the fact that there were new leaders. and that the young people are trying to carry on. was it as massive as it was 30 years ago? no. but at least it's still alive. and so i think what you have to do is you have to nurture and bring along -- if you don't, it dies. >> well, is it being nurtured? is it being kept alive? is that happening? >> not as broad spread as we have in the past because i think a lot of people feel like we've arrived. we don't have to. >> i don't mean to interrupt, but i don't think anybody said

to martin luther king as he was coming up, you know, we're doing things that are going to make you into a great leader. and i'm not even sure if people of his time and place, many thought about it, but i'm not sure if there was the same kind of concern as today about where leaders are coming from and so on. why this concern now when i don't believe we had it at the same level, say, 30, 40, 50 years ago? >> well, and you probably know the answer to this. i think at 40, 50 years ago, we had issues so critical that they in themselves were galvanizing. >> and so in your face? >> in your face. you know. you know, what was it like not to be able to go in the front door? what was it like to not be able to make more than $1 and you worked all day long? what was it like not to be able to ride the bus even though you got on the bus and you were there? what was it like to go to desegregated schools? what was it like not to be able to go in certain areas? i remember all these things. what was it like? the kids today don't have those same experiences. but i think it's still there, but it's more subtle. it's still there.

we see it -- we see it a lot of times, for example, in the way kids are taught and the way things are happening in the schools. you still see it a lot in the job market. you see it a lot where people live. look at all the gated communities we have now. and those gated communities to me in many ways say hands off. this is closed. and not just to minorities, but to certain socioeconomic groups. you know. so i think that what we had then was more in your -- and we lived with it. we knew what it was to deal with it. and it wasn't -- it was very overt. it was very up front. now it's more difficult, but it's there. >> now, we can't go back. >> right. >> we're not going back to that in your face, but we need leaders just as badly. >> right. >> what do we have to substitute, if anything, for that in your face? what experience does a youngster, college student, high school student, somebody -- what experience do they have that duplicates or replicates this in-your-face experience that you and i had?

>> well, i think a lot of it now is class. race is still there, but i think class is very quickly moving to the front of the line. and what you're seeing is a lot of poor kids not getting opportunities. and it doesn't matter whether they're black, white or hispanic or who they are. they're being left behind. and the opportunities are not available for them. so instead of racism, you've got classism. that's smacking them in the face. they don't have access to this. they don't have access to that. they can't get jobs. they can't get in. so i think that's the issue that's really going to probably be more of a galvanizing force in the future. >> on that note, thank you very much. >> you're welcome. you're watching american history tv. all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook at c-span history. just two hours ago, allied air forces began an attack on military targets in iraq and kuwait. these attacks continue as i

speak. ground forces are not engaged. this conflict started august 2nd when the dictator of iraq invaded a small and helpless neighbor, kuwait, a member of the arab league and a member of the united nations was crushed. it people brutalized. five months ago, saddam hussein started this cruel war against kuwait. tonight the battle has been joined. >> now the 28 counts with forces in the gulf area have exhausted all reasonable efforts to reach a peaceful resolution. have no choice but to drive saddam from kuwait by force. we will not fail. air attacks are under way against military targets in iraq. >> the coalition waited 24 hours after the u.n. deadline expired

and then began their attack. january 17th, 1991. that was when the first bomb would fall on baghdad and when operation desert shield became operation desert storm. over 600 planes were launched that night from bases throughout the arabian peninsula, from turkey, from carriers in the red sea and the indian ocean, from even as far as the united states. >> now to give you some idea of the order of magnitude, within the first 24 to 30 hours, we launched over 300 tankers alone to support the strike package that went in through that area at the time. there had never been any launch as big a support package ever in the history of the air force that incorporated that many

tac tankers. >> in the opening attack, the allies combined their precision technology, electronic warfare tactics, and surprise. >> we had been here since august, so he had seen every day an f-15 caps. so he was used to seeing that every day as well as the other collectors through the joint and those kind of airplanes. so he knew that was up there, and that's what we wanted him to see right up to the minute that the bomb started falling. >> just beyond the radar, our attack aircraft was filling up tachkers so they were able to top off their fuel at the list minute. >> although they numbered less than 3% of the coalition fighters, the f1-17 struck almost a third of the targets on

the second day. >> the actual first step that was taken that one could not then stop was a missile coming out of a ship. >> at h-minus one hour and 26 minutes, a cruiser in the sea launched a tomahawk missile. they would arrive five to ten minutes after the first f117 strike. >> at h-minus 21 minutes, gun ships took out two iraqi reporting sites on the border. this helped clear the way for non-stealthy fighters heading towards western iraq. >> the first bomb to fall on iraq that occurred at about nine minutes before we referred to as

h-hour. >> stealth fighters then penetrated the heavier air defenses around baghdad. >> we flew 32 f-117s right into downtown baghdad in the first hour and 20 minutes. >> their next target was the principal telephone communication facility, also dubbed as the at&t building. >> it was really their centralcom mode in the country. >> he went blank at h-hour plus about four seconds. that was that bomb hitting the at&t building. you're watching american history tv all weekend every weekend on c-span 3. to