conversation on c-span radio and www.c-span.org. tvrecently, american history has been airing a selection of oral histories with african-american community leaders. the project, titled explorations in black leadership, with the collaboration between the university of virginia leffler andhyllis julian bond. up next, we hear from conservative commentator armstrong williams. he talks about his father's influence on his upbringing, his internship working for south carolina senator strom thurmond, and later, his involvement in the clarence thomas u.s. supreme court confirmation hearings. this program is about an hour and 45 minutes. bond: armstrong williams, welcome to explorations in black leadership. williams: thank you for inviting me. bond: we're very pleased to have you here. i want to begin with some questions about the brown decision. now, it occurred five years before you were born, but what was the discussion, if any, in your family or what was the feeling about what this might mean?

williams: my parents had quite a different take on the government and the issues of race. my father, actually in the discussions, actually thought it was ridiculous that the highest court in the land even had to come to the conclusion or discussion that separate but equal was immoral. he always saw things in terms of moral and immoral. and they'd had the discussion to make a decision to try to make the facilities equal. and his attitude was, "son, you know, they can try for the next 20 or 30 years to make the facilities equal, but the only way that my children are going to have a quality education is that i got to ensure that it happens. i got to make sure that i'm involved with what happens before they ever enter kindergarten -- by reading to them, having them read to us, reading the newspaper, going to the library. i will never trust the government to ever educate my children or to make me believe that they are going to make people equal. how are you going to have from human slavery to de jure

segregation and now this brown v. board and then we are going to get into the civil rights movement and how do you think that we are going to be equal? you cannot legislate the mentality of people when people thought in the beginning that you are unequal and therefore you are not worthy to sit next to their kid because that kid was white or something else." as he discussed it, he discussed it in a different way. "i've got to make sure that my children are educated and have a better chance at life than what i had." bond: where did this idea come from in his family? why do you think he felt that way? williams: well, you know, my father and mother had deeply-held christian values. my father often talked about the stories that were passed along to them about how people who considered themselves to be god-fearing would go to church on sunday, but yet after church could have a picnic and cut up their brethren into pieces and

place them in a jar. and have just left the altar of god and how could anyone who claimed they believed in god -- their actions were just that of brutality, something that goes against all the teachings that they proclaimed to believe in. and so his attitude was, is that it's going to be quite some time before you can ever change the hearts of men who allowed a constitution in place, that in ideas and in principles, we were equal, but they did not have the moral turpitude or the moral courage to stand up and say, "we have to learn from the brutal dictatorships of the past to make people have equal access. we don't have to give someone an advantage, but don't give them a disadvantage." so my father never had a whole lot of faith in the government and had a whole lot of faith with people who subscribed to a certain faith and who had certain power. there was nothing in his history that would make him believe that they would do anything that was good in the long run. he figured long after he would leave this earth that things would be better, but he did not see it happening within the next

30 or 40 years during that time. bond: but at the same time when you write about the brown decision on the 50th anniversary and the 50th anniversary year, you write that "life was far better for my brothers and sisters than when i came along." how did your brothers and sisters -- you're from a family of nine -- how did they benefit, if at all, from the brown decision? williams: well, separate but equal, the notion was is that when the decision was rendered, is that you can no longer believe that just because you're separate, you've got to make you equal. many of these institutions were still unequal, unequal in terms of what they had access to, in terms of the teachers, and even just in the rural part of the world that we lived in.

i mean, we did not have access to the kind of tax base as a lot of people who had a certain kind of affluency had. obviously my father thought it was a good thing that people were beginning to understand what many of them had known for a long time -- that racism and discrimination and bigotry of any kind is a moral sin and the stain of this country and that we all would have to pay a price for the oppressor and the oppressed. i think my father's attitude was, what he learned was that as the government was giving all this rhetoric about making people equal, what he needed to do was to find a farm, find an institution where he could raise his children, sort of like an incubator so that he can influence their value system, their work ethic, their discipline, their routine, to teach them how to work, to teach them how to fish as he was building his farm. you know, my parents had a 250 acre farm that they bought back during the 1940's. that farm still is in the family today, so my father felt the best weapon to bigotry and discrimination would be being truly free because my father grew up partly on a sharecropper's farm and he talked about the abuse, the humiliation. he told the story about how his

brother -- i don't know if you know this, you may know this, i mean, you are well read and you certainly have far more experience than most people on this issue -- is that i remember the story about his uncle who had worked on this man's farm and they only paid them once a year was when they were paid -- once a year. and he worked on this farm for a year, and i had a friend of mine recall this story for me recently and it reminded me of something that my father said, and at the end of the year, the owner of the farm said, "we owe you about $46." i mean, it was just an outrage. i mean, this man had worked. i mean, the blisters, the sores, for an entire year and for someone to say that you were only owed less than $100 was an insult. and from those lessons from my father watching his brothers, he said, "you know, i may have to endure that for some time, but the children i bring into the world will never endure that kind of humiliation and abuse because it could just destroy their self-esteem. i never even realized that every opportunity in america could possibly be their opportunity." bond: before we began taping, we talked for just a moment and you said that in your father's

family, you couldn't trace back to slavery. williams: no. bond: but in your mother's family, you could? williams: not only to slavery, but to -- bond: native americans, american indians. williams: yes, american indians because my grandmother was a full-blood cherokee indian and so in my father's side of the family, they were very industrious. they were landowners. they were entrepreneurs. they were farmers. his sisters were a seamstresses. they were entrepreneurs and they were able to accumulate masses of land that was never taken away from them in the family. in fact, the land is still with my cousins today, but my father broke away from that because he had a dispute with his brothers and he decided that he would have to go out and secure his own farm. and it's funny how he was able to do this and he told this story often. there was this guy by the name of mr. buck davis and my father approached mr. davis and said, "you know, mr. davis, i don't necessarily want to be in business with my brothers. i want to have a family. i want to grow a farm.

i want to have an opportunity for them to experience freedom and to build wealth and to possibly run for office some day and they cannot do this working for the man." and mr. davis said, "well, james" -- that was my father's name -- "what can i do you for?" he said, "well, mr. davis, i want -- there is this plot of land over on davis lane near centenary. there are about 50 acres that i can buy and it costs about $800. now, if you loan me that $800, i promise you that in the year's end from today, i will pay you back your $800." because during that time, as my father told the story, a black man could not buy land so he had to get this white man to front for him. and mr. davis said, "well, i appreciate what you're saying, but," he said, "i'm going to loan you the money." and so he loaned my father the money and my father assumed he was getting about 40 or 50 acres of land, but he was able to buy 100 acres of land with this $800 during that time. and the funny thing that my

father tells me that happened in the community -- black people were upset with him for purchasing the land because they assumed that my father was trying to be better than they were. bond: he was getting ahead of himself. williams: that's right. and white people were upset because they felt my father did not know his place and this white man fronted for him and they would have never sold my father this land because the land was owned by white owners at the time. so my father's attitude from that experience, he said, "son, don't get caught up in the black way of thinking and the white way of thinking. when people have power and they have control over you, they are all the same. so don't ever think that only white people can be racist and discriminate and abuse power. all people can do it. just look over the world and you will see that as time progresses, you'll begin to understand that people are the same world over. never get caught up in judging people based on their race, the hue of their skin." he said, "all you do in life is extend your hand and say 'hi. my name is armstrong williams.' you judge a man how they treat you, based on their character and their values and you get the trust in that way." bond: now you talk about your father having broken away from

his brother who owned land and this long tradition of land owning on his side of the family. now, that's not unusual, but it is relatively rare. how did that come about? williams: well, my grandfather, my father's father, colier, parents had land. bond: where did their land come from? williams: their land came from their parents. there were always -- you know, it comes from a background where they were one of the few free black families in the south that owned land, but not only owned land and i am going to reveal this. they also had -- we wouldn't call it slavery -- but they would call them indentured servants. they had people working on their farms. and they would say that they treated their indentured servants far better than the man treated his slaves. so they were able to pass this along and they were able to keep their land. bond: but every black person whose family can go back more than 150 years has some origins in slavery. i mean, there -- when they came

here from africa, they came as slaves. so there is some point where your family achieved freedom. and how did that happen? do you know? williams: you know, i really can't answer that. and, you know, we've researched it. we have done the family lineage on that and we have been able to trace it very well on my mother's side, but on my father's side, it's just -- bond: just lost? williams: -- a whole different story. and we've tried. bond: you need to find out. this is a fascinating story. this is a fascinating story, i'm telling you that you need to find out. williams: it's critical. i need to find out. bond: let me get back to this. so now it's 52 years after brown and in the same article i quoted from before, a column, you say, "50 years later we have not yet gotten around to securing that these students actually receive an equal education." and i think that's commonly understood, that's the truth. now, why do you think that it is so, that 50 years after this historic decision that still we see unequal education for people of different races in this country? williams: well, again, it goes back to it was a noble idea. but it was only an idea. they never put the resources,

they never put the instructors, and they never did what was absolutely necessary to make this work. and then also, the great society programs. i mean, there's often this debate about these social programs that were put in place to sort of empower black people. to sort of make up for their 40 acres and a mule that was promised to them, but i believe this. see, i don't trust the government even though i love this country. would die for this country in its wars, would defend her to the end. i do not trust the government. i don't think that you can pass laws and expect within a few days that people are going to do the moral thing, to make people equal. i think that even in affirmative action. affirmative action was something -- it was reparations, is what affirmative action was. but i don't think the lawmakers ever had any intention of it benefiting black people the most because if that were the case,

they never would have included white women. i mean, white women -- and we know about women's suffrage and we know about their plight in this country, but never to the extent to what blacks endured in this country. i mean, never to the extent -- i mean, you have to understand, the founders, because they knew that slavery was so wrong, so ugly, and so bad, they had to put in a worse counter form for slavery in order to justify it to those that they broke away from in founding our nation, and so they put in one of the most repressive and horrific regimes ever seen during that time, knowing that it was wrong, and so they had to find a way to justify it. so, we go back to this brown decision and they put this affirmative action in place and they included white women, i mean, and then the other thing that happened even in the great society programs, when they put these great society programs in place, i mean i don't know if you remember this, but my parents would tell a story about how during the late '60s and early '70s, social workers would go through a person's home, look under the bed, look in the bathroom to see whether there was any trace of a man in the household.

what they were doing then was forcing that household to choose between the government check and having a man in the house. people ask the question all the time, "what happened to the black family?" before the civil rights legislation was ever passed mr. bond, around the 1950's, 1956 and 1957, 78% of the black households had a mother and a father. i would venture to say that these government programs that were put in place displaced the father. and more than anything else that has impacted the black family today is absentee fatherhood. i cannot imagine my life without my father. as much as i love my mother, i love her, i honor her, i've never talked back to my mother in life. i could never imagine what i would have become without my father in my life because my father taught me discipline. he taught me how to work. he taught me self-respect. he taught me real self-esteem. he taught me discipline. he would spank my butt when i needed it and do it with a smile where i even smiled sometimes after the whipping. but my father was a man.

he taught us how to be a man and, see, the problem today is that men don't know what it means to be a man. they don't know how to work. i mean, it's not that they don't want to work. they just don't know how. no one ever taught them. no one was ever an example for them to work and to fend for yourself and to survive for yourself and to provide for your family. and what happens today because there are so many absentee fathers, these mothers are embarrassed and apologetic for it, they make these men soft. they give them everything. they don't earn it, and then when they get out into the larger society they're just disastrous. bond: now, i can understand from what you said earlier about your father's attitude towards the government, and -- but i'm wondering was an attitude that his father had or that his father before him had? or is this something you think that originated with his generation and you, in turn, learned from him? williams: no. my parents, how could they trust the government? the government allowed slavery. i mean you are talking about a government that allowed one of the most immoral acts --

bond: sure, but you could also argue that the government ended slavery. williams: no, the conscience of the people. good people of all walks of life ended slavery. what happened was is that a sleeping giant was awakened when they saw these images of the dogs being sicced on people and the lynching and the stories. and the stories of goodman and others. it was the conscience of the people that changed the government. if they had not awakened the sleeping giant, things would be just the same as they are today. it takes the character and the moral fiber of a people to change their government. no, i will not give the government credit for that. bond: but the government was the agency that ended segregation and at an earlier period, ended slavery. williams: well, wait a minute. no. you are talking about the freedmen's bureau? bond: no. the conscience of the people raised up an army run by the government, abraham lincoln's army, and that ended slavery. i'm not saying their conscience didn't do it. williams: well, mr. bond, i am also reminded what happened after reconstruction, when blacks were elected to the senate and to the congress and to the legislature and they were thriving.

and guess what, the conscience of the people who were still bloody racist, envious, and jealous rose up and took that away and put in a more repressive form of taking that away from them, the jim crow laws. this is the same government. oh yeah, the government may have felt they needed to do the right thing, but when they did the right thing, others used it as an excuse to say, "well, they're taking away from us, we should have these seats." and they found a way to take it back from them. this is the first time in our history that we can honestly say that the people have forced the government to do something for the long haul of this country. i don't think we can ever go back where the government can take away the kind of freedoms and opportunities and the portrait of life that we're bringing into this country. you know, i just -- you cannot trust -- a government like that must earn your trust and, still, i see the government with its form of slavery in a different way. what it does through its social programs. the government tells you, "don't take care of yourself. we'll take care for you. you don't need to think. you don't need to provide for yourself. we'll give you welfare. we'll give you affirmative action."

well, let me tell you something. a government that's big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it away from you. that's why i believe in the entrepreneurial spirit and the spirit of freedom and your own ideas. god bless the child that's got their own. bond: i want to go back to brown v. board of education again. now, you go to an integrated elementary school, which surely is one of the fruits of brown. then you go to south carolina state college, a historically black college. what kind of values did you learn at these separate institutions? the integrated school, the all-black south carolina state college -- what did learn there? i don't mean the reading, writing, arithmetic. what did you learn at these places that has shaped your life? williams: well, that's a very good question. i've never been asked that before. you know, it actually put in my father's teachings in place that people are the same all over. you know, i have to tell you this, it's no secret. i mean, i say it all the time, people think it's crazy. i've never experienced racism. ever. never been called the n word.

never been denied an opportunity because of what people say about the hue of your skin. when i was in high school, i interacted with people. i networked, we studied together, so much so that they elected me as class president. they elected me as student body president by a landslide. i was able to build real relationships. they would come to my home to study. i would go to their homes. so, my father's vision for us early on, before i ever had this experience, came to life. it came to life. now, of course, there are bad people, but i had a wonderful experience because our high school is probably 50-50. 50% white, 50% black, but all the things that we talked about, how people said they were spat on and the kinds of things that were happening, you were not invited to do this. my father says the greatest weapon to breaking down any barrier is the human heart, how you feel about yourself. and my father taught us to have a lot of pride and a lot of self-confidence. now, you flip that to my college experience. it also goes to tell you what my father said about just because someone looks like you doesn't mean they share your value system or they want what's best for you.

i remember -- i think this is a pretty good story. i remember when i was in college, my parents and i reached a pact that as long as i maintained a 3.3 grade point average, i would never have to work a job on college campus and that they would pay my education out of their pockets. and, fortunately, my parents paid cash money for my education for all four years, but i had to maintain a 3.0. so, i remember my rising junior year in college, i had become pretty bored with academics. i just got tired of studying. it was no longer no fun. so i said to my father, i always had to negotiate with him, i said, "you know, we need to do something else here. i want to run for office. i want to run for student body president. i want to make history. i want to be the first rising junior to ever win student body presidency at the school." he said, "boy, you are going to have a tough time." he said, "you're a republican." he said, "i want to tell you something. you are about to have an experience you never had." i said, "oh, no, i think i'll do well." and so i'll never forget when i announced that i was going to run, one of the deans, i am not going to call his name, god bless his soul, he is no longer with us, called me into his office and said, "i hear you are

thinking about running for student body president." i said, "yep. i am thinking about running. i talked to my parents about it. they think it is a good idea." he said, "well, you know, i am your friend and i have been your advisor since you've been here and i think you are quite capable, but we don't think you should run." and i said, "why don't you think i should run?" he said, "well, we think you are a little too dark." bond: oh really? williams: yes. this is what he says, this is what this dude said to me. but, see, the good thing about it is my father didn't want me to run in the first place and i said, "this guy -- " i could not believe it. but you know at south carolina state, you had to submit a photo at a certain period to get into the university, absolutely. the guy told me i was too dark. oh, i said, "oh god, daddy will get a kick out of this." so, i called my father. i said, "you will not believe this. this dude said to me that i was too dark to run for student body president." he said, "you've got to run. why did i tell you? that is ignorance." so my father financed the campaign and came down and helped me campaign and i won by 64 votes.

so it was just sort of the reverse of it, but still, the majority of the kids voted me in. they voted me in for a second term by a landslide and i still saw the good there. but see, it can come from anywhere. now, what if someone white had said that to me? it would have been racism, right? bond: sure. williams: but my father's attitude was it's all the same. it's denying you an opportunity. bond: well, it's really some kind of racism in both instances. williams: yes. bond: so, if a dean says it to you and some white guy says it to you, it's the same thing. williams: yeah, so i guess it's racism. i guess we live in a society today that blacks cannot be racist because they have no power. i mean, you can have power when you influence people. if i go to you for advice and i'm asking you to give me the best advice because you have my best interest at heart, why would you give me advice that i am going to suffer from in the long run? yeah, so racism can take many forms. so, yes, i guess that was racism. bond: and the dean had power? williams: oh, he had power, but he didn't have power over me because i wasn't weak-minded. i had a father. what if i had not had a father? if i had just had a mother in the household and i had no strong male figure in my life, there's no telling what could have turned out, but that motivated me. i was excited and we won.

and he apologized. bond: oh, really? williams: oh -- bond: well, at least he was big enough to apologize. williams: yes. he did apologize. bond: this next question i think i know the answer to already, and that's who are the people who have been most significant in helping you develop your talents? now, you've already talked about your parents and the influence they had on you. what about other people? not parents. other people -- teachers, ministers, community figures, those kind of people. but long before you meet strom thurmond. williams: right. bond: who are the people who helped you become who you are today? williams: mr. stevenson who was my history teacher who felt i had potential and he really worked with me. mrs. crawford, who was my science teacher. i always thrived in the math and the sciences in school. i always thrived, but they developed me. mr. watson. you know, i have never had a sports bone in my body. i have never been athletic. i could never make it like a lot of athletes today, but, anyhow, he made me manager of the basketball team and i kept the

score and it gave me an interesting outlook about sports and about how life sort of mimics the basketball court and the arena sports. i learned so much from that, and then bill jones. bill jones was over 4h in my county. he got me into livestock judging where i would judge swine and i would judge cattle. and he got me to become a public speaker where i got into debates and the debate forums around the state to the point where i won the debate contest two years in a row as a sophomore and a junior in high school. and then my brother alvin followed and won the same. and so these people had a very significant impact on my life. and the hendersons. i mean, i remember when i was -- we were taking typing and shorthand. i could never understand why a man would want to take typing or shorthand. and he felt i would thrive in it, and i took typing and i won all the awards in typing because

i typed like a hundred and six words a minute and so they developed me and my father always encouraged them to come by. they'd fix a good meal for them, my mother -- they would fix a meal, and we would sit down and go around the table because my parents dropped out of school when they were in the sixth grade. so my parents would sit around the table and want to learn, too. they had a hunger for learning. and they also felt that i was being an example for my brothers and sisters to come that learning can be fun. it can be exciting, and so they made learning fun in our household. when we were about to have a tutoring session, everybody would gather around the table and just sit and learn and everybody would take notes. it was like a game in the house. like some people had nintendo, but learning math problems or logarithms, english and all that kind of stuff was very exciting in our household. bond: what about outside the school setting? were there figures in the community that pushed you along some way or helped you in some way? williams: well, you know, it's kind of interesting because -- bond: let me interrupt you --

and ministers, particularly, because what i found interesting about your family is that you went to different churches. williams: yes, that's true. bond: now, how did that come about? williams: well, my mother is pentecostal and my father is african methodist episcopalian. and my mother tells the story. you see, my father was married twice. his first wife, in giving birth to the fourth child, died in childbirth. and he was in need of a wife because he had this young baby and he had these three young kids. and so, my mother had a very good reputation in the community. she was 29-years-old, had never been married and to hear her tell it, she never thought she would ever marry, and she was a virgin. i mean, think about that. she was a virgin. everybody knew about her reputation and so my father went to my grandfather, whose name i bear, armstrong howell, and said, "you know mr. armstrong, my wife, theola, just died. i've got this young baby and i'm looking for a wife and i would love to marry your daughter thelma." he never went to my mother because that's not how it worked at the time.

he went to my grandfather, and my grandfather told me the story during his lifetime. he said, "well, james, you've got a pretty good reputation. you work hard. you got that nice farm and you need help. i think thelma would make you a good wife." he said, "let me talk to her." so he talked to my mother and my mother said yes, so my mother came into the marriage with already four kids to take care of, but one of the things that she agreed on. they met -- this happened -- his wife died on january 24, 1957, and he married my mother march 1. they never really knew each other. so he married my mother on march 1, but the one thing that my mother asked for though, the only thing that she asked for is that she did not leave her papa's faith. she is not going to join with those boring african methodist episcopalian people and she is going to remain with new life holiness church and i am the only one of the 10 kids that joined with my mother. it's where i get my excitement, my zest for life. bond: so all of the other kids went to the ame church? williams: all of them are members of the ame church, even today they are, but i went with my mother. bond: so you tell the story about the difference between yourself and your siblings and your choice of church. why did you go this way and they didn't?

williams: well, my father, to be candid with you, he actually thought that the people that would shout and speak in tongue, that they were kind of ignorant. he just looked down on it. and my father had such a huge influence on all of us. we are much more like our father than our mother, but, you know, i said, "well, you know -- " and so i just said, i said, "look -- " so i was talking to my father and he said, "boy, you don't want to join them, uh-uh, you don't want to join." i said, "well, i don't know. i mean, everybody else -- " i said, "i think i'm going to join momma's church, plus i like it better, too." because at his church, i'd sleep all the time. you know, even though church was a big part of our upbringing -- we went to church every sunday -- it was not something that was indoctrinated. it was not everything. it was as if we had to stay in church because, see, at the holiness church, the thing that

my father did not like, you'd get to church at 8:00 in the morning and you would not get home until 3:00. at least with my father's faith, you would get to church at 11:00 and you were out by 1:00. and that was a big deal. so my mother was in church all day, which drove him crazy but that was her thing. so i said i am going to join with momma and she was so happy that i joined her. and i remain a member of her church today. that's why i joined, but one of the few times in my life i just decided with my father that i wasn't going to follow his advice. bond: did this create any conflicts between yourself and your brothers and sisters? williams: oh no, no, no. and my father liked the fact that i was willing to step out on it. he said, "boy, after all, it is your momma. i mean, so how can i get upset with you? it is your momma." so, it was okay and we had that conversation. bond: it was never his thought to go to the holiness church. he would not -- williams: no, would never. but he never tried to tell us -- even though he would tell us, in the end it was our choice and most of my brothers and sisters felt the same way. they just could not get into the speaking in tongues, people falling out all over the church and being covered in towels. it was just too much for them. but i said, "okay, i'm going to join my momma." and so he gave me a pass on that. bond: now, let's move forward to the time you meet strom thurmond and you're relatively young. williams: 16-years-old.

bond: and your father takes you to a place where he's speaking and what happens there? williams: well, my father had read in the paper that strom thurmond was speaking at the dry dock seafood hut. see, my father wanted us to be governor and senators. his attitude was that he was going to make a lot of money and we did not struggle. we grew up in an affluent family. i thank god for that. did not have to struggle. and he said, "let me take care of making the money and you all need to be elected officials because, you know what, he said the only way you change the government is you have people like you who's unwilling to punish people for the way they punished us in the past, judging us by the hue of our skin." he said, "you've got to be fair. justice has to be fair." everybody feels they got to get the fair treatment and my father felt that he was raising fair, compassionate children. and, so my father said, "well, look, strom thurmond is going to be at the dry dock seafood hut. i think he's the guy that can take you to washington." he always wanted me to go to washington, my father, and i always listened. bond: let me stop you right there. now, i know you say you get your entrepreneurial spirit from your father, but what you are describing to me now seems to me that he is saying the

entrepreneurial spirit is great. you know, making money -- that's great. but that's something i'm going to do so that your generation doesn't have to do it and you instead can go into public service. is that right? williams: oh, he never thought i would be in business. he never thought i would be an entrepreneur. that was something that was never encouraged in our household. it was to get the best education, background for office, and make the government and the state better. bond: and what about your siblings? any of them people you would call entrepreneurs? williams: the majority of them are. yes. bond: so, what about public service? williams: i have a brother who is a state senator. i also have a brother who runs a political action committee. but we were sort of, i mean, politics, it's interesting. it was something -- and we grew up and my father would have these fundraisers for these politicians who were running for office. we'd have to glad hand and shake. we had to be at the reception and it was good for business for him. when there was a problem with the farm, he could always call farm bureau.

always call the governor's office and they always responded. my father was a republican, and so i actually thought i was going to go and become a politician. bond: for most of your life, your father is a republican in a democratic state. williams: yes. bond: and he is republican at a time when most democrats are saying, "you know, these people, just a little tiny bit of them, they're not doing anything. they are no threat to us. they'll never take over anything." how did he operate in that situation? i mean, why does he have this access to the governor? why would the governor pay any attention to a black republican? williams: well, he gave money to politicians. that's where i get it from. bond: i see. williams: he would support them. see, he felt money could do just about anything. he said money is good, but he said if the farm life continues, he felt we would be well taken care of. but he actually thought that politicians were for rent. and that was nothing about principle. he didn't want us to become that, but certainly, i mean, you had this guy. he was an anomaly. here he is a republican. he has one of the finest farms in the state. seriously. he built one of the finest farms

in the state. it's a great place for entertaining, which we continue the tradition to the day. we have governors. we have people like steve forbes. we have everybody who is anybody come there for a fundraiser because of the way it's laid out, the way it is built. and so, my father, when he saw this about strom thurmond, he wanted for some time for me to meet the senator. so, and listen, we're in the middle of our tobacco crop. he said, "boy, get the black gum off your hands and take a shower because we are about to go see strom." so we get to the dry dock seafood hut and we got there just when senator thurmond was leaving and we walked in. some of the people recognized my father because he had a strong reputation in the county and just before he was about to be introduced to strom thurmond, i extended my hand and i said, "hello senator. i am armstrong williams and i hear you are a racist." [laughter] bond: and what did thurmond say? williams: oh, no, it's what my father said, forget about what thurmond said. i thought my father was going to slap me actually, but we were in public. bond: yeah. williams: can you imagine my chocolate-shaded -- my father

red, beaming through his face. he was furious because he had worked so hard to make this happen. and so thurmond chuckled and he told my father not to worry about it. "at least he's honest. i am sure you raised him that way." so then my father sort of cooled out and my father said, "well, son, make sure you exchange numbers because senator, i want him to work for you one day." he said, "a lot of people say these things about you, but i told my boy, you get to know people before you judge them. and i want my boy to get to know you because i have plans for him and i know you can help him." so my father was really doing all the talking. i will still sitting back there afraid to say anything else because i didn't want to get on his bad side anymore. so, now we exchange cards and the senator said to me, "you sound like a bright young man. what grade are you in?" he said, "when you graduate from high school, if you ever want to come to washington and intern for me, come work for me. why don't you decide whether i'm a racist or not." so he issued me a challenge. so, look, it was like it went straight over my head. i had no interest in following up with senator thurmond.

so my father stayed on me and sure enough, i would write him and he would always write back. and he would call every now and then. and so what happened was, i got into college and at the end of my freshman year, i started thinking about my father's tobacco fields and sand-lugging and cropping tobacco and i said, you know what, i have got to find something else to do other than working on that tobacco farm during the summer so i said to my father, i said, "i'm kind of trying to get some other experiences during the summer to expand my portfolio." he said, "boy, you need to follow up with strom thurmond and go work with him." he said, "i have been telling you this because if not, i am going to put your a back in this tobacco field." that's the way my father talked. so sure enough, i did not want to work in the tobacco field that summer so i called senator thurmond. i will never forget it. he called me back the next day and i said, "you know, i have been thinking about you. i have gotten your notes periodically." i said, "i want to take you up on your challenge. i want to come intern for you to see what washington is like,"

and i will tell you this -- i will never forget this -- when i came to washington, i went to the capitol and it was at night. and i looked over the capitol and i had this feeling. you know, you have to understand, it was my first time out of the state of south carolina. all i had known was rural south, outhouses, not our own. just a whole different world and when i saw that i said, "oh my god." i began to see my father's vision and i fell in love with another way of life that i felt that i could really thrive at, so i started working for him and i worked for him almost every summer and that began the relationship. and i have to thank my father because he had vision, but the difference was, unlike some people today, i trusted my parents more than i trusted myself. i knew that my father, and he is crazy sometimes, would absolutely not give me advice unless he had my best interest at heart. and even though he was not

educated like some parents, i knew my father loved me and i knew my father had a strong inner spirit about what we were capable of doing and he encouraged that. and so that started me to actually believing that i could run for public office. bond: isn't there an anomaly between your description of your father as someone who does not trust the government and is suspicious of the government and then someone who sends you to, in effect, work for the government and become a part of it and whose aspiration is that you will become part of the government? williams: remember what i said to you -- it was the interesting thing about daddy is that he felt that the government would change. and that it would be better. maybe not during his time, but in a time when his children would come along, that the government would be ready for someone like us to effect change. realizing that it would always be imperfect. the government is representative of its people. in order for the government to do better, you've got to have good people to run for office with strong values and a different way of looking at life.

so, his distrust in the government, true that exists, but he never lost faith that the government could change much later down the road and be better as more and more people were allowed to participate in that system of government. bond: now, when i'm thinking back about strom thurmond, one of the things i that i remember about him is he had a reputation, as you've discussed, for being very close to his constituents. constituent service like nobody's business. that of all the senators, if you want somebody to return your call or write you a letter back, strom thurmond was the guy. what did you do when you interned for him these summers and what did you pick up from him or did you pick up things from him that you have carried through life? williams: you know, for some reason, the senator liked me. i have to tell you. bond: you're a likeable guy, armstrong. williams: no, no, no. it's much more than that. he would -- in the evenings, he would ask me to stay late and he would share with me letters from

the constituency. he would share with me how legislation worked in the congress. he would take me over privately to capitol hill, to the congress, to the senate, and show to me how the different bodies, the majority leader and how all the interactions of the congress worked. he would show me how a bill was put together. bond: did he treat his other interns this way? williams: no, did not. and they really couldn't understand it. it was different. i cannot explain it. my mother said it was her prayers, but i was in class. i was with the historian all the time. and during thanksgiving when i really started working with him, when i could not come home, even when i had a job in washington, during thanksgiving, it was always, if i were in town, he would bring me over to his office just before thanksgiving. he'll let me see all the things that are going on, the things that he is involved in, things that may be in the press versus what the reality of it is. and i will never forget. i got to tell you something. i really respected strom thurmond. i must tell you, more than anybody else. more than justice thomas, strom thurmond has had more of an

impact on my life than anybody. i will tell you why -- because he was very kind to me. and he was very sincere and he is very honorable. he said, "you know, i was racist. let's be clear." he said, "i was a segregationist." he said, "but i had to be." he said, "but let me tell you something. i fought against the poll tax. i did what i could." he said, "you must consider the times. but it's men like you, like your father said, who must change those times." he said, "your father is a good man. i have a lot of respect for him. and i have a lot of respect for how he is raising you because you're inquisitive." he said, "i like the fact that you asked me whether i was a racist," he said, "because most kids don't have the confidence to ask a senator something like that. you didn't ask me that to insult me. you were inquisitive as to what you were getting into." and, i mean, listen, i took a lot of hits for my association with strom thurmond. bond: oh, i'm sure. williams: you have no idea. especially at south carolina state, but i liked this guy. he taught me about how important

it is to have a senator in washington. he said, "everything in washington has to do with whether you are close to the president, the speaker of the house, or some senator, or some secretary of a cabinet." he said, "i am going to be the person you are close to." and i will never forget -- and i used to tell people when i first came to washington that i was close to strom thurmond because everybody saw him as a racist and they laughed at me and thought i was a joke. it was very hurting and i remember i would call my father, he would say, "well, ask the senator to do something to change that." on a simple thing. i never thought about it, so i went to see the senator and i said, "you know, no one believes that i am your boy." i mean, i didn't say it like that. i said, "well, nobody believes that, you got to help me out." he said, "well what should we do?" i said, "well, maybe i'll have a party and invite all these naysayers and you come," and so he said, "well, you only have a one-room apartment that's infested with roaches." i said, "yeah, but that's all i got. i'd like for you to come." he said, "set it up and i'll come. and so he said, "but you got to brief me on what to say." at that time, barry white had this song out "it's time for change, everything must change."

so the senator and i would go into his office going over all of the words to make sure he knew the words to the song. bond: i can't imagine strom thurmond and barry white. williams: but, anyhow, so i put together this little invitation where i said, "i want you to come to my place and meet my very special guest, my mentor and hero, senator strom thurmond." and so senator thurmond said, "now, you know, they are not going to believe you so i am going to give the impression that i am not going to show up and you will see the real nature of people, but you just call me and i am going to be downstairs," because he was right around the corner. so, sure enough, dr. bond, my little apartment was packed. there must have been a hundred and seventy-five people all the way around to the elevator. and you knew when strom got off the elevator because people started howling and screaming. i mean, it was like a rock concert. and he comes in -- oh, he was old then. he was in his 70's then, so he comes in and he said, "this boy is like a son to me," he said, "and when i came over here, i heard barry white on the radio." he said, "barry white was

singing, 'it's time for a change.'" people were weeping. bond: just fell out, fell out. oh, yeah. williams: fell out. and that was it. that's what changed my status in washington was that i had a senator and he stayed with me and he supported me on all the things that he felt that would advance me in the city. so, look, i definitely owe strom a debt of gratitude, but my father even a deeper gratitude who had the vision and the foresight to believe that this could be possible. bond: let's go on. how did you meet clarence thomas, now justice thomas? how did you meet him? williams: now, that's an interesting story. senator thurmond got me a job at the department of agriculture in animal, plant, and health inspection services where i was in my area, agriculture, which i understand very well. but they didn't know what to do with me. the secretary of agriculture at the time was john block.

and john block said, "why don't you put together this black history month program for the department?" i said, "oh, i don't want to be involved in no race issues or no minority issues. my father told me to stay away from that because you are going to put me in a box." and the secretary -- and i mentioned it to senator thurmond. he said, "well, you know, it may be an opportunity for you." he said, "you can always shy away from race issues. don't be afraid of that because it is a part of america's fabric." he said, "but, you know, i mean, embrace it and see if you can come up with some ideas because they may learn things about you." so i was reading the newspaperss and i saw where richard pryor had been freebasing cocaine. i had no contacts to richard pryor. nobody. and i said, "now, wouldn't it be interesting if i could convince richard pryor to come to washington to give a straight speech for black history month?" i said, "ronald reagan is getting beat up for his civil rights record and richard pryor is getting just whipped for his drug problem." i made about 60-some calls and finally this guy by the name of terry giles called me back.

he was the lawyer for richard pryor and i told him i was this big wig in the administration. i worked for senator thurmond. if i needed to get senator thurmond on the phone, i could. and we're interested in bringing richard pryor to washington. we'd take care of all of his travel. none of this had been confirmed, by the way. we'd take care of all his travel and we'd like to have him come and sure enough two weeks later he called me back and said richard pryor would do it. oh, my god. i went running to senator thurmond and i said, "you've got to support me on this." he said, "well, this is going to be a problem because people are going to see this further shows that ronald reagan has no concern for black people because he's bringing richard pryor in who he is a comedian, who's not serious, who finished freebasing cocaine." he said, "you're going to have a problem with this." i said, "but you've got to trust me, i can make this work. i can make this work. you asked me to be creative." he said, "but, look, i -- " bond: but, he never dreamed of that. williams: oh no, he had never dreamed of it. so, sure enough -- i said, "but there's one problem that they insisted that richard pryor was willing to come if president reagan would host a reception for him at the white house." bond: oh, wow. williams: yes.

so, senator thurmond called reagan himself and said, "i know you are going to get a lot of flack on this, but trust this young man. this is going to work out." and sure enough, when i finally presented it to the department that richard pryor was coming, they flipped out, but the die had already been cast. the white house knew. strom thurmond gave his assurances. but i will never forget that senator thurmond called me into his office and we went out to lunch at the sport avenue grill. that's where we had lunch. he said, "i want to tell you something." he said, "you're becoming like a son to me." i will never forget this conversation. he said, "but i have got to tell you this. if richard pryor embarrasses the president, you are out of here and you won't be welcome back to this city for a long time." i said, "senator, i'm willing to take a chance." but i was naïve. i didn't know the fallout that could come as a result of this. bond: weren't you afraid -- richard pryor was full of profanity? his routine was full of the worst kind of words. williams: i was 21-years-old. i was 21-years-old.

bond: but you had heard of him -- williams: yes, yes, yes. but it didn't matter. i wanted him there and when you want someone to do something, you forget about everything else. you are blinded. you have all these blinders on. i'll never forget when richard pryor got off the airplane, he was stunned that i was so young. and we got in the car. i said, "look, man. let me just tell you this. i got a lot on the line. you cannot be up there cursing and you got to give a straight speech because -- and i got to help you write it because there are a lot of naysayers." and so, richard pryor said, "we considered those things." he said, "i appreciate your inviting me, but i am glad to see you are a brother." he said, "i didn't think you was a brother. a brother got this kind of power? you close to strom thurmond?" and so the first night strom thurmond hosted a dinner for us. we went back to richard pryor's room, and i have to tell this story. i'll never forget. jesse jackson called richard pryor and said, "don't do it. do not give your credibility to this administration." mrs. king called, "don't do it." oh, i was in the room. i was learning another lesson. she said, "don't do it." richard pryor said, "all my life i've never given a straight speech for dr. king. you all have never asked me to do anything and here it is, this young brother invites me to washington to give a speech and you're telling me not to show up." he said, "well, you know what?

i am going to show up and you all just have to live with it." and so the next day at the department of agriculture, richard pryor spoke. bond: what did he say? williams: oh, man. you should see the headlines. you can go back and trace this. the washington post had the "the jester weeps" gave the best speech ever in his life. it was his only straight speech in his life. talked about king. talked about the only march that he had been a part of and it was a poor people's march. and i'll never forget this, as soon as the program was over, they were calling me strom thurmond because we had people in the audience saying the president's going to be honored to see richard pryor tomorrow. and on the very next day, president reagan had a reception to honor richard pryor. over 250 people including all the civil rights leaders were there and i will never forget when ronald reagan and both of them from from california grabbed each other and they both cried in each other's arms. that was the picture that captured it. on that monday morning, this woman called me. her name was diane. said, "i am calling for chairman thomas of the eeoc. he wants to see you, but he wants to speak with you first." he said, "man, i read about your bringing richard pryor." he said, "that's a heck of a

thing to do." he said, "man, you've got this place in shock." he said, "man, these people don't know what to do with you at the department of agriculture. you should come work for me and help me develop you." and i went by on that monday for an interview and i started working for him on that wednesday. that's how i met thomas. [laughter] bond: i just can't believe this story. i never heard that about richard pryor. williams: oh, that's what happened. yes. bond: i wasn't living in washington when this happened. williams: that's why richard pryor came to washington. he spoke at the department of agriculture for black history month and they asked him in interviews, "why did you come?" and he said, "because an agriculture employee, armstrong williams, asked me to and he promised me a reception with the president and i got that." and richard and i remained friends until his death. bond: really? williams: yes. in fact, it was he who introduced me to hollywood. absolutely. he would bring me out to california. that is how i met people like barry white, jamal woods, because i started bringing them in for different functions, but he opened me up to a whole different world. that's how i got access to hollywood, was through richard pryor. and you didn't know that. bond: no, i never knew that.

i never knew that. you know, i made a movie with him and i never heard this, but this is not about me. all right. so you get with thomas and you work with him for a number of years. what was that like? williams: hard. bond: why was it hard? williams: he was a tough taskmaster. he was something to work for. reminded me of my father in many ways. you cannot show up to work a minute late. it was like it was a hard place to survive. but my work ethic and my father and my background had prepared me for him and he was different. he was different. very bright, but he was not necessarily the warmest person that you could really warm to. you had to earn your trust with him. and i started out as his press secretary and ended up writing speeches for him, but once i earned his trust, i traveled with him 80 percent of the time and we bonded and so that was a phenomenal part of my life because i learned a lot about the inner workings of government. in fact, i had senator thurmond

to swear him in and he was able to get a lot done. thurmond sort of became like the champion for eeoc on a lot of the things that they were trying to do and it was four years, four enjoyable years that i stayed there with him until my father became ill and i brought my father to d.c. in '85 because i didn't want that burden on my mother to take care of him. he had myeloma bone cancer because my father had just attended ronald reagan's inauguration in that january because he was so thrilled that reagan won, and so we celebrated. i rented a limousine and all that and had my father -- i was showing out. i wanted my father to feel i was big time. strom thurmond hosted a dinner party for us, but later that year he became ill and i was so devastated by his death. i was just so devastated that i needed a break from d.c., so i told the justice. but the justice was very kind to me during that period because my father was in the hospital for about four months and i probably saw eeoc three days out of those four months. i was always by his bedside

taking care of him and when he died, i moved to high point, north carolina, to start a different life. bond: to work for bob brown? williams: bob brown, that's right. bond: now, describe bob brown because many people watching this won't know. williams: bob brown was the person that ronald reagan wanted as ambassador to south africa before edward perkins became the ambassador. but mr. brown decided against it. mr. brown worked in the nixon administration. he and art fletcher built the minority set aside programs. they are the ones that put the new version of affirmative action in place and minority business enterprise. bob brown is one of the most revered republicans in this country. he's built a successful international public relations firm and i don't know if you remember, when nelson mandela was in pollsmoor, mr. brown was the first american to him in pollsmoor and mr. mandela asked

him could he find a way to finance his children's education here in the united states and mr. brown was able to get them scholarships through dr. siber, at the time who was president of boston university and they came here under his stewardship and he took care of them. and so he was very involved with the mandela family and one of my assignments when i was with mr. brown, i became vice president of government and international affairs. i spent a lot of time in south africa with winnie mandela, with the movement, spent a lot of times going back and forth with his adult daughter and the grandkids back and forth to south africa. this is where i first traveled internationally was through mr. brown, so it opened up my world up to international travel. i built a very good relationship with mrs. mandela and when mr. mandela was freed from pollsmoor, i think it was 1990 or 1991, he personally asked me would i work in their office to respond to all the letters that were coming in.

and i remember the letters from gorbachev, edward kennedy. i was typing and writing all those letters and they were signing them and it may surprise you, you know, that i had that experience, but it was wonderful and i'll never forget the first interview that mr. mandela gave after coming out was with he and winnie and i had to interview and i remember people there like chris wallace and others would could not get in because they were the wrong color, to be honest with you, and i gave them my blessings and mr. mandela allowed them the interview so it was a fascinating time. i was there for about a month after he was released. bond: now, back to bob brown. is it fair to say that the experience with bob brown introduces you to public relations as a profession? williams: yes, it does. bond: and that led to your association with stedman? williams: well, what happened -- this is good -- oprah was looking for something for stedman. her man needed credibility. not that he's just her beau. and so dr. maya angelou and oprah are best friends. well, dr. angelou is like her mother, and so in high point -- well, oprah came to high point at winston-salem because dr.

angelou felt she had the perfect situation for stedman, because oprah wanted him in a situation where he would not be exploited, which would further exploit her. put him in an environment where he could learn and grow and develop as a professional. so they had this dinner, and it worked out where stedman would come and work for b&c associates, so stedman and i -- i was on board a few months before stedman, so stedman came on board as vice president of business development and that's how we met and we both learned the field of professional public relations, the field of marketing, crisis management, crisis public relations. in fact, every time that i was in south africa, stedman was with us. in fact, it was because of this relationship that oprah set up the feeding program in south africa and building this academy in south africa. all this came from this relationship with mr. brown, and so stedman and i decided -- well, oprah used to -- and then i ended up running oprah's foundation.

there is the oprah winfrey foundation, charitable givings. i was its first executive director and i ran her foundation for little over a year and giving away money, working with different philanthropic organizations, and so stedman and i decided in late 1989 and 1990 that we should use the skills and gifts that we learned from mr. brown to start our own public relations firm so we went into business together and founded the grahams williams group. bond: and very quickly because i want to get into some other kinds of questions, the thomas supreme court nomination is a point in which you become publicly known -- williams: yes. bond: -- because of your support of him and your appearances on tv and in the media. williams: well, the media and i worked together. we were all there together at the eeoc. and so when thomas was nominated by bush to the supreme court, we handled much of his public relations and advising him and so when thomas eventually was elected to supreme court,

because i think he was elected and not appointed, you know, the victor gets all the benefits, but those that supported him get some benefits, too, so i started writing for the usa today. cathy hughes offered me a radio show on wol which was for a week to twice and five days a week. and that's how i came to the attention of the public was through those hearings and being there for my mentor, justice thomas. bond: now, i don't think of you, armstrong, as a journalist because i think of a journalist as someone writing for the daily press who is reporting news. i think of you as a commentator. how do you think of yourself? williams: well, after no child left behind, you would think i was a journalist, but -- bond: well, no, but -- williams: but, no, i'm not a journalist. you know, i have no professional training as a journalist. i did not go to school for journalism. it wasn't until thomas was nominated to the supreme court that i became a commentator, writing commentary, doing radio,

i'm just -- i'm a commentator. i really am not a journalist. bond: so, when you have to fill out a form and it says profession, what do you write there? williams: conservative commentator. bond: conservative commentator? williams: yes. bond: not just commentator, but conservative commentator? williams: oh, i'm a conservative commentator. bond: okay. williams: that doesn't surprise you, of course. bond: now, whether you do or not, at some point you have to say to yourself, and maybe it's not verbalized, you have to say to yourself, "i am a leader." what was that point for you? williams: well, that's a fascinating question. my father, as a child, always said that people would trust me and believe me so therefore as a child i was a leader, is what my parents would say. bond: how did this exhibit itself as a child? i mean, not just the high school offices. williams: at home. bond: okay. did your siblings -- who trusted you? who followed you at home? williams: my parents did and my brothers and sisters and then my uncles and my cousins.

you know, i was like -- they felt i had wisdom. my father tried to figure out an issue with the farm, stuff that was going on with the farm and things were not working out the way they were supposed to work out and we would be around the the dinner table and as a boy of 14-years-old, i said, "well, daddy, have you ever tried this, have you ever thought about this," because i was well read. daddy said, "boy, how did you know that? boy, there's boy's out." you know, out? they used to say out when we were growing up, and so my father would say, "boy, i'm telling you, you going places. that boy, that's a leader right there," and so he would try it. it would work. then when i was thirteen my father had me do the taxes for the farm. yes, i was doing the taxes, putting together the taxes for the farm and i would pay the hands. i would -- my father would pay in cash, i would pay all the hands, you know, go to get all this money from the bank. i would pay and keep a track record of what is paid, what is outstanding, and then make sure that at the end of the year when we give it to the accountant, so i had all these responsibilities, so it's not strange that i'm an entrepreneur

because my parents are entrepreneurs. i always had the gifts of the marketplace because i would tell my father, "you know what, i don't think cotton's going to do well next season." bond: how would you know? williams: i'd read the trends. i'd read a lot of economic periodicals.i read the trends. i read a lot of economic periodicals. i think you should go more with barley, but you should go heavy on the -- . then i said to my father, this is before he became ill, i said, you know the pharmacist suffering. there are going to be a lot of losses. growan all crop and tobacco but but you never better

because smoking it. i don't think the back is going to be what it once was and i don't know if it is going to be able to pay for ken bruce and the situation. i started a trend. bond: i should have you predict some trends for me. our parents didn't treat us like children, they treat us with respect. my parents were different. my father actually believed i knew what i was talking about. elected into these offices, and that is one way we measure leadership. then you get out into the work world. did youthe work world decide you are a leader?

in the department of agriculture you are not thinking -- williams: no, that was fun. limitation the, those confirmation hearings are about strategy. probably most of the confirmation hearings -- i always had a strong moral during the -- moral compass. but during the confirmation hearings it was all about hearing -- it was all about winning. i think more than anything else, i never want to be a politician. more than any time in my life i made the decision i cannot be elected. nobody cares about the truth. i saw that.

you got to destroy the held by any means necessary. my attitude was to take her out. i was a general and i led the forces to do that. it was my past and i did it, i don't feel good about it. most people won't admit that. we do in washington is destroy the part of -- the part that elevates others. wanted it to become that. by the time i father was deceased i did not have this guidance, i was on my own. it was a big part of the process. bond: you have his memory and the memory of the things that he taught you. you can't say any time in the future you would want to go back to south carolina? that.ms: i can never say it is in me.

i'm the one who convinced my brother to run. i believe i can do it. i know i can do it. i know i have what it takes to do it. it is just a fact, i can do it. am i willing to do it? there is always the possibility. bond: you never know. williams: i agree. bond: you said you were troubled by the things during the clarence thomas and anita hill .earings why were these things troubling to you? williams: a need a was a friend -- anita was a friend. we both were southerners from large families. even though i believe in justice i could not understand why she was saying what she was saying. i never took the time to even ask her.

i made my decision, i didn't want to ask. we it hurt me to see how turned her into this monster, this evil person. hearing onet the day, she and i walked past each other. i did this. i have a conscience. that i will admit i do some of those things so others can realize you can really make sure that when you make these decisions you are living with the consequences of them. we all have regrets in our lives. i regret having to do it at her expense. bond: have you been forgiven by her? do you require forgiveness by her?

williams: no. i guess i should. someday i will run into her. sometimes these are so deep, sometimes only time can heal. the best things that happened to us are the things we cannot plan. hopefully before i die and leave this place i can make amends with her. on think she is not hard to find. -- bond: she is not hard to find. vision,o mention philosophy, and style. these interact with you? isliams: my philosophy shaped by my virtues and values. my philosophy is basically shaped by my parents, even when i didn't understand them. it, raise aback to child in a way you would want them to become and the way you would want to be.

it is absolutely based in morality and how you treat people and how you are loyal and honorable. abortion,arriages and but never underestimate my value as a human being. sometimes things happen to people we can't always explain. against theo rail things in life. i do care about the people and the struggle they have to even when american blacks feel that, that i'm doing somebody else's bidding, i would be the first to speak against bigotry and racism. racism means morality is ugly. i'm not so foolish to understand

that because i had a mother and father, that i had parents that gave me four years of an education and a family who came to washington and found a place to live and paid for the first months rent, i realize that has given me a head start in life. as much as i talk about the philosophy and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, there is something in the legacy of slavery. that is being able to pass along home ownership well. effort.enseless if parents can give their child a $30,000 gift, that determines when they are buying a home. it makes the determination if you are going to buy a house in a neighborhood with a good system. i understand how money operates.

i also understand when people say the lesson of tomorrow, just as god feared as i am. they does come to a different interpretation than i do. i would never minimize it. some people say they are anti-america. i got to know people like you and being on the set for years. this person loves god. he has less mean faith in god than i do. is we are unwilling to have the mind where people have a real debate and grow each other. philosophy also dictates that if i believe in something, it can elevate me to a higher truth, i want to go with the truth. they know the truth they are willing to abandon that. vision, my our

vision is what i want to become in life. there are three things important , something to look forward to an something to do. something to love, something to do, something to look forward to. that there is no entity in this world that can stop you from doing the things that i do. even with the experience of racism. i have had many obstacles, i have had many things that could set back lesser men. i believe i am sincere. i don't articulate anything unless i believe it. answers andl the all the solutions. they put on their pants the way

i do. i can achieve whatever they achieve. no racism could ever -- i don't get up in the morning thinking about racism. i will broadcast for hours every morning. -- that is mys vision of what i can become in life. you ask about vision, ask about philosophy, and style. i think it is the thing that really helps me, people can sometimes be my staunchest enemy. i always find the good. i always try to have the style that i am approachable. i always like to have the style that i can engage. people can walk up to me and do just about anything -- and say about anything. i also have a lot of pride.

people know how i feel about smoking and alcohol. my style is i always want to be an example. i want to be an example. can write so well about things i write about is because sometimes those are the things i struggle with. just because it is something i struggle with, does not mean i understand what the market is. we should all try to get to the truth. i always try to treat people fairly. well in thevery marketplace, very successful in the marketplace. always try to help people realize the american dream. i think we need to be involved. i don't care about race. i care about the heart of an individual. believe when hurricane katrina came about and people got all worked up because there were so many black people, white people

have been affected by katrina. of theld react because human condition. nobody should be left out of this equation. we should get outraged because it was a human being. if we say to the world only we should be concerned about this because these are our people, then you are short-circuiting and leaving our people who overcome these issues. butn't care about your race i care about your value system. we can have a discussion in a civil and respectful way. engaging, but the hardest thing we do every day, is working on ourselves 24 hours a day. it is not writing the commentary. the toughest work i have to do every day is working on armstrong 24 hours a day.

the corner improves every day. that is sometimes what we forget about. i always want to be honest with people. i don't want to say something that people don't want to hear. sometimes we live in a society where you want to make people feel good. you know the person should not pursue their career. five or six years later the person comes back. people ask you how you are doing. i'm doing the best i can to make it through this day. we live in a society where we have to always tell people we are ok. i'm just trying to improve and be comfortable. me, like the things you ask the issues of no child left behind, that is part of my life. itpeople want to talk about it is fair game.

i have made my mistake, i have used bad judgment. if i am going to keep living i am going to do more of it. not done what you have in life, it is where you end up in life. >> let me ask you where leaders are made. some people think leaders are made in three ways. eventseople cause great and leaders emerge, or movements or the confluence of unpredictable events creates leaders appropriate to the time. ?he latitude movements make leaders? do leaders ever make movements? williams: hitler did. bond: could you argue that hitler took advantage of latent anti-semitism and german nationalism? he took advantage of something that was already there but they needed a leader? it was a movement. what about martin luther king? it is arguable there was going

to be a movement in montgomery and some depict him and said, you be in charge of this. you don't think it ever happens -- that is the choice you made of the three? williams: i don't think you start out being great. you don't know who you are until you go through the fires of life. you look at someone like dr. martin luther king or gandhi. it is the struggle that makes leaders. you cannot be a leader unless you go through a struggle. got to have moral restraint in order to be a leader. you end up destroying yourself and people around you. >> what about the prospect that somebody becomes a leader and then suddenly finds him or herself in another occasion separate from the first and

takes that greatness he exhibited here and turns it into a leadership role here? >> we have examples of that, no question. >> do you see your legitimacy grounded in your ability to persuade people to follow your vision? or in your ability to articulate the agenda of a movement? williams: i think you have to be able to articulate the agenda of a movement. what is even more important than is people seeing you something you cannot see in yourself. i think people around you create the leadership. become leaders should never want to become that. if your desire is to become that, if that is what you are sitting around for, you are not going to make the best leader. especially if you are humble, and they demand of you that they need you at this time, you are the only person who can do this,

and we will follow you, we believe in you, then you already have the trust of the people, instead of forcing your trust on the people. are occasions where people force themselves into leadership. williams: like hitler. our ownke people in society who say, i'm the leader, follow me. somebody who says, i'm the leader, follow me. and some people follow that person, just because that person said i'm a leader and acts like a leader. anyone will follow you for a wild. -- for a wild. -- for a while. bond: i think i know the answer to this question, you have a

general philosophy that guides your life. has that sustained you through challenges or bad times? how has that philosophy sustained you? >> when i was in college i had carolina.nce in south i was under the water for 38 minutes and i was going to the bottom of the river, i could feel the scratches and bruises. same thing ithe felt then, just raise your hand. and i raised my hand like a thumb. i was on the banks of the river. and the lifeguard said the only thing that saved me was he saw my fingertips and he grabbed my hand and pulled me out of the water. i always believed that my life

and my choices, it is an instinct i have, it is a feeling i have. if the chiron never existed, in my heart i know right from wrong. sometimes in his confessions, lord make me good but not just yet. we as men don't always want to be good. i always can never use the fact that i did not know. even with no child left behind. wrong, have known it was that it would come back to bite me. it is in those moments i am in the middle of a storm, of a then when i only can look at my own stuff can i learn and grow and be better. i always search myself to find

out what is the root cause of this. bond: even without the existence of these three great religions, you said you would feel you would have the same feelings. these feelings come from your parents who are religious people? deeper than is much my parents. it comes from the god force in all of us. williams: you must have heard it from -- bond: but you must have heard from your parents. williams: i believe the truth has a biological advantage. i believe a child sucking at his mother's breast can pass truth along to that child. theink if you try to keep conscious good and try to do good, you can always find the truth you search for.

bond: let me ask you about race. you said you don't think about people's races. about that few of their skin -- the color of their race or the hue of their skin/ does that have a conscious effect on what you do? williams: you can't help that with the media's enforcement of it around you. i don't make judgment. when i hear about some of the being racially profiled who happens to be black, that has no affect on me. them, -- appens to bond: you don't think because it happened to someone like you it can't happen to you. i know you say it has never happened, but you don't think it could happen? there is no possibility? williams: in my mind, no.

bond: do you see your self as a leader who advances race or society or both? williams: society. bond: big emphasis on society. race -- isthing as a there such a thing as a race transcending leader? williams: yes, of course area expenses can help you transcend and understand there's more in life and the world and why people suffer than race. won -- bond: how does that question fit if you are asking can there be such thing as a -- as a race transcending leader and you are think about the larger world outside the black world?

williams: race is something we put a label on to understand. it forces people do not search and really understand the human being. hue can say what they are and just dismiss them. that is the bad thing about it. no matter what a person believes and what they individuals can always change and elevate. because they are against us, we don't want to have anything to do with them. we just banish them away from society. bond: you say races not that kind of function, society would come first and race would be a part of it. when you are talking in writing ,nd advancing your philosophy seems to me it is often aimed at

black people as yourself and has commentary on what their leaders are believing. isn't that kind of a contradiction? williams: in order to communicate with people you sometimes have to go where they are. a leader, someone who is willing to test the waters because they believe they are right, you have to go where they are. people are so consumed with race, they are so obsessed with it. i write about it because they come to read it. but i write about it in a way that we give it too much power. there are other things we can do to change our lives. absolutely, people are deserving another 48 acres. to focus youring time and energy on something

that is never going to happen? even in the issue of affirmative action. them, tell me the black people benefiting. we make it seem like it is the first and the last. it isill tell you probably three or 4% that benefited from affirmative action. why don't you focus on something that can make a reference and have an impact for generations to come. i go there to talk about it but i elevate the dialogue in a different way. frontdo you have a leadership style when you have a group that is all black or all white or even in the middle of a mixed group? is your style different? the same.always same conversation, same

reaction. that i would have to question myself. i know people who do it, people associated with it. you are consistent, your conversation -- i can't believe you said that. maybe you have a point. bond: i can't believe you said it either, because when i speak , blacke same text audience, white audience, i'm different because the audience is different toward me and that makes me different toward them. williams: when you are talking and thesues of morality human condition and personal responsibility and accountability, and when you are talking about the quality of justice and how to create a how youof economics, build onto partnership and home

ownership, that is something that transcends and touches the lives of everyone. in terms of my address, those are not the issues. bond: i bet you if you read that list to the black audience and the white audience here, both audiences would like it, but the black audience would be saying yes, sir. say it, preach. and they are back and forth in a way this audience will not be. saying their expressiveness? williams: are you saying they are you saying there more acceptable than others? bond: not at all. i'm saying they are more expressive and that has to affect you. you have a level of appreciation here you are not getting here, and that does not mean these

people dislike you or these people like you more. these people immediately surround you with warmth. then these people wait until it is over. williams: the differences i speak to these evangelicals. it all depends on their up ringing. that is the difference. you can hardly finish a line. same to thehe method. sometimes people don't react if i'm not in an audience that orerstands my philosophy supports my philosophy. once they begin to trust you, he is not anti-black, he just has a philosophy. for everybody. i found this out in chicago when i was there. the audience was very different. they were not going to give me

anything. about eight minutes into the speech they can just turn around because they got to know me. bond: do you think it is divisive to focus on black leadership? talked earlier about black leadership and black leaders. is it divisive to focus on black leadership? williams: no. bond: why is that? williams: you have to understand, there is a legacy in this country, a time in this country where lacs had to have their own institutions because they were not welcome. and they found solace and strength and empowerment, whether it was a fraternity, they found strength. this has been a driver for what sustained them in many of their communities. if society was willing to base

laws and treatment on the fact that they were black and use it in a very destructive way, why can't we focus on it in a very and still build that glue which holds that community together for such a long time before the laws were ideasce, to live out the which are always in the constitution that all are created equal? i don't think it is divisive, i think it is healthy. bond: do black leaders have an obligation to help other african-americans? is a person known as a black leader obligated to help black americans? williams: i have many people who say they are not going to listen to me, they are not going to trust me, but i wish i could say this to them.

they cannot communicate with this audience. there was always a discomfort even believing they can make a difference. because the problems have reached epidemic levels, it is no different than the nation of islam. for storing blackman to respectability and real opportunity in america. works, then it is a good thing. if it is empowering your community, i am all for it. are certain young blacks who distrust white people because of the history, because you cannot dismiss their distrust because you have a history fed for such a long time, but if you can elevate them to a better way of life, i am all for that.

bond: what do you see as your greatest contribution as an --ican-american leader you african-american leader so far up to now? williams: i actually believe -- i actually kind of believe that , i think conservatives to doing commentary in the stories and america's black form. i'm one of the first that have been given a forum to understand these ideas and the way of thinking of black conservatives. i believe it has fueled the industry and given rise to others who feel this way. i get hundreds of letters of people who say you give me the strength and courage to say that virginity is all right.

i believe god is less a way than through my participation in the media. some of the legitimacy of this way of thinking. bond: our mutual friend has written a book about a crisis in black leadership and i think he extends that to the community these leaders spring from. is there a crisis today? and is it less severe than in times past? williams: in times past we had laws on the book, less opportunity, and you are subjected to so many other things. i think it would be very difficult to understand why certain communities have not reached certain levels of except -- certain levels of success and achievement. crisis that is a

goes back to something i said earlier. jewishlook at the community, one of the things that holds them together is that they keep families together. find very few jewish households that don't have a father. get in touch with family members. they kept their communities together. any community in the world, that community thrives. the crisis it is in is the definition of a family. i wanted that you that 70% of the problems we discussed today would go away. black peoplerisis would have or in america would half.

70% of households don't have a father and 52% of them have babies out of wedlock. ofn you have those kind conditions in any community you will have this kind of epidemic crisis. >> these are not american statistics. >> the statistics would be the same for any family. williams: -- bond: the statistics would suggest they have these pathologies to a greater extent than white america. it someoneise can bring a child to the world and feel no connection to that child? especially when you look at families that keep their families together, keep their children together. something you have to

resolve. you can have all the debate. in order to resolve this problem, it has to be resolved in each individual family. >> how will future problems demand different kinds of leaders, or will it? williams: i don't think the problems are basically the same. i think they come in different shapes and different forms. lack of moral stride, greed, selfishness, disrespect for others, and people want to have dominion over others. people are willing to sacrifice for others. the thing about capitalism that people forget about, it is a good thing people taught us this. you can't empower others without

empowering your self. i realize i am going to get it back tenfold. when i go to church on sunday i pay my ties. thatays have this belief whatever i give i will get it back tenfold. they arelieve because struggling at this moment they cannot afford to give anything. that is misplaced value. even in katrina, people who felt they had nothing, if they took a dollar, in time they would see that money tenfold. what leadership has to show as we did not get away from greed. understand the debacle of how you can take people's pension and just exploit them. you ask yourself where does that come from? else,k more than anything

we can deal with a lot of issues we have no control over. in terms of the choices they made, look at what they do in islamic countries. they believe we are the enemy because of their way of life. the way they live, they have all this money. and people starve. they expect us to love them more than they love themselves. they make america's to be a steep go -- to be a scapegoat. people need to take time to build young men and women. even if it doesn't benefit you on the problem -- on the bottom line. we have probably had 150 young men come through that really did not add much to the bottom line, but we develop -- we develop them into young men.

we gave them something that money cannot buy. self-respect and dignity. we don't have time anymore. is leadership. when you raise a young man up, especially when they just expect to die by the time they are 21 it is amazing what they can become in life. all i can do is change the community where i am. assayms: -- bond: society, how can we foster the most effective leaders for the future? in a larger sense, how can we as a society know we are going to have a good supply of leadership figures in the future? williams: it is amazing the state of education in this country.

has developed over 200,000 scientists and doctors and this country is only 30,000. and -- gotten rid rid of vocational schools and these other schools that grew up where i grew up. not everybody is going to do well in college. there are those that get out of high school. i had a little of everything. i had a brother who failed third grade twice, who barely got out of high school. no idea how he is going to make ends meet. if you know how to work, know how to be creative, know how to be imaginative, you can do just about anything. my brother had no idea what he was going to do.

he figured he can do that. he decided to quit his job. do you know why he was digging graves? he was moving dirt. then he started with a shovel and then he came to the back. he turned this into over quarter of a million dollars per year. he is not afraid of work. he is not afraid of failure. he knows the one thing you can do, you can work. our gifts are not the same. there is something you can do far better than i can do. but you have to believe you can do them well. you have to discover that and become the best expert in that area. they all do very well, they are all very successful. some of them work in the university system that a lot of

them learn how to work. without a value system, without work ethic and a moral compass, we are doing this for society. ways you can make wealth in this country. it,can marry, you can steal you can win the lottery, but you know the ones where 95% of the -- they are earning it. even when you divorce and get it, even when you hit the lottery, statistics show you don't nearly -- you don't keep it nearly is not as people who earn it by the sweat of their brows. if you work by the sweat of your -- we are the microwave mentality.

part of the people -- there is an immediate reward. doing good is an investment. you don't see it right away. it kicks in overtime. we should want an investment that sustains us for a lifetime. we don't teach children about patients. honest man'sn revenge, unless we get to the point where he stopped selling drugs and build society through character, through morality, and understand in the end that you win. lord make my last days my best days. it takes sacrifice, it takes discipline.

i have worked hard to become the armstrong williams i am today. paying my bills on time. when i go out to buy property i have a very good credit score, knowing my word means anything else. if someone believes you at your word they can trust you. people assume because they get a mortgage on the bank they don't appear demise, that is stealing. you enter into a contract. i get go into a bank anything -- my word is good. it is more valuable than money. if you say to somebody i'm going to be at an appointment at 7:00, be there at 645. that little extra. and that is what we have gotten away from. bond: thank you for an extraordinary interview. williams: thank you. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] americane watching

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