>> you are watching american history tv on c-span 3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook. >> up next, kathleen bartoloni-tuazon talks about her book "for fear of an elective king: george washington and the presidential title controversy of 1789." when washington was elected chief executive that year, congress was unsure how you should be addressed. he was commonly known as his excellency until the title was changed to president because of concerns that position would become too much like a monarch. universityington hosted this event as part of the celebration honoring the first presidents birth day.

president's birthday. this is about an hour. >> [inaudible] we have heard presentations. this year, for his 284th birthday, [inaudible] this is the first year we had a lecture on washington's actual

birthday. the first year we have had a lecture at the george washington university museum. there could be no more fitting location. the third first, this is the first are we feature one of gw's own phd's. she has written a critically acclaimed study. year, the george washington lecture is a little different. .t is a conversation that is the fourth first, if you are keeping track. we felt this made more sense, to have an informal conversation

and to welcome more audience participation. have your questions ready. immediately following the conversation, there will be a reception in the lobby. i would like to welcome some special guests this evening. husband, welcome. [inaudible] [applause] unfortunately, the editor for the project could not be here this evening. we want to acknowledge him for precipitating -- for working tuazon.with

i am pleased to welcome back to campus the featured speaker, dr. kathleen bartoloni-tuazon. she received her doctorate in history in 2010. she was featured on "all things considered." she worked as a chief of informational management for the u.s. fish and wildlife service.

after theful establishment of the government under the constitution, congress and individuals debated more than 30 titles. cut, that did not make the his elected majesty, his highness. some favored calling all presidents washington. the office that george washington defined, we could not be any luckier to have someone

with expertise about the original presidency. it is my pleasure to welcome to the stage dr. kathleen bartoloni-tuazon. [applause] dr. bartoloni-tuazon: thank you for coming. >> you know that i love this book. what i wonder about is why the story has been with title controversy. there wereni-tuazon: when historians wondered much time ont so

it when they could've been working on amendments to the constitution or taxation. what they did not quite realize was how important the controversy was to figuring out what they were going to do with the new office of president. washington's -- was trapped with the dichotomous concepts of a republican king. i just did not believe it. i thought, his presidency must have been dynamic. i was having lunch one day and i

mentioned this much to my colleagues there and we started talking about the presidential title controversy. they happen to mention they had ons multitude of materials the title controversy. the more i thought about it, i my dissertation topic had hit me on the head. >> those are the best kinds. let's take a step back. granted,e take it for the presidency. this was something of a radical creation. can you say a little bit about the fears the american people had about this new executive office? dr. bartoloni-tuazon: you have withinize a president's the popular sovereignty is

complicated and the presidency was quite controversial in the beginning. the american nation had just fought a war against the king and six years after the treaty of paris and the end of the war, ais new constitution featured executive with no term limits and vaguely defined powers. it is no wonder people worried about a monarchy attaching to the presidency. what kind of a president did the country want and need? there were those that worried the president would turn into a this product all-powerful -- despotic all-powerful monarch. there was another group of americans that worried about a weak executive that would be subject to corruption and

weak kingon, like a could be manipulated by his court. for them, there was reason they would be more interested in a thisg title to counteract fear of a weak president. >> it seems all sides agreed the person should be george washington. he was the obvious choice. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: he was the most trusted man in america and the most celebrated person in the western world. i mean, really, when you think about it. werethe nation one. he was like a steadying

influence on an unsettled america. people celebrated him with such was aiasm that he blessing, trusted guy that he was. celebrated, the enthusiasm toward washington was ,o excessive and so king like he would elicit almost like the rapture within the people. the public loved him and they loved to celebrate him. as a result, he brought this --that was a problem for the presidency.

yes, he was a terrific guy and probably the only choice for a really successful first president because of the trust people had in him, that he could inhabit the presidency and they could trust him in that position. but he brought with him some problems. get,question i sometimes if not washington, who would be the next obvious choice question mark my answer is, -- who would be the obvious choice? not.swer is, there was that brings us to this question of what to call him. i wonder if you could give us a little bit of background to the debate. why did it even happened? the constitution says this person would be the president of the united states. why do people feel they needed

something more? dr. bartoloni-tuazon: the senate had convened -- once the senate convened in early april of 1789 and finally counted the votes, washington was sent forth. he starts making his journey from mount vernon to new york. he celebrated all along the way. these huge productions. he is coming to new york. the senate is convening. it is really no surprise that people start wondering, what are we going to call him once he arrives? are we just going to call him -- i don't think so. he had already been addressed as general and your excellency during the revolutionary war. in addition, at that time, all of the governors were addressed

as your excellency. except for the governor of georgia. in the constitution, it said, he must be your honor. with washington coming, this person who was so celebrated like a king, calling him your , and the same title held by all of the states governors and he is supposed to be the head of this new federal government. the question was, what should we call the president? he was so celebrated, your excellency did not seem quite majestic enough. at the same time, your excellency was already used for state governors.

what are we going to call this new federal officer? >> the senate really pushes this issue and we have to remember this was a new office as well, the office of vice president. when john adams reads the constitution and wonders what he is supposed to do, he thinks he is supposed to go to the senate. he is the president of the senate constitutionally. one thing i really like about your book, other people just dismissed adams as crazy or ridiculous. fourartoloni-tuazon: adams, even though he was -- for adams, even though he was a high federalist, he was more concerned about a week executive than a strong executive. he was concerned the executive would be corruptible.

when he had been in britain as an ambassador, perhaps he had seen king george manipulated by his court. he was worried and richard henry senator from virginia, was also worried about a weak executive. they felt one of the ways to shore up the executive was to give him some tremendous title. the senate majority felt this way. part of the reason they did was they found themselves in a bit of a bind. those -- the people who were most fearful of this weak executive, those they thought would be the most manipulative

would be the senate. the states were very powerful. the senators were the state elites. adams was very afraid the state elites would overpower the executive. not so much washington with his incredible authority, but all the presidents to come. the senate did find itself in a bit of a bind. if they did not give the president a high title, they of anbe accused aristocratic body. if they gave him a high title, they would be accused of being monarchists. >> you have to tell us about some of the titles. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: the senate and the american people debated

over third oh titles, most -- debated over 30 titles, most with royal overtones. illustrious majesty, illustrious majesty. sacred becauseon was put forth shouldn't all the other president tried to be as wonderful as washington was? there was even a suggestion that at least for washington, his name should be the delight of humankind. >> that is what we would all like to be called. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: it just went on and on. president, of course, was one of the suggestions. forget all of this, let's just call him president.

there was a large and vocal group, the majority of the people argued for just a simple president as well. some of them you can barely say. , especially with the house being adamantly opposed. the house was always opposed to any title other than the civic title of president. in subcommittees, when they would try to meet, the house would not budge. happened in the end after the three weeks of legislative debate, during what i call the legislative phase of the controversy, the senate capitulated completely to the house. the simple title of president with no extra address.

in that resolution, they begin that therecommendation senate felt his title should be his highness, president of the united states and protector. >> that would be a mouthful in a press conference. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: president and protector obama. >> amazing story. something you accomplished, how you treat washington in this book. there is a long tradition suggesting during this whole debate, somehow washington was in the background cheering for one of these illustrious titles. you show quite the opposite. tell us about his role. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: first of all, i want to say, the title

rife with gossip and innuendo. filled with catty facebook posts. and all of that -- in all of that gossip and innuendo, never did i find any evidence that washington supported the title. that is my first argument against it. i have several in the book. one of the other big arguments against washington's supporting a title is that he wrote in a that heo his son-in-law was against the title controversy. it was started before he arrived

on the scene in new york. he argued against it once he heard about it. he predicted the uproar it would cause. wasould end the harm it doing to the perceptions of the new federal government. he was from virginia and virginia barely ratified the constitution. neighbors were already going, you are going to be the first president? the last thing he is going to want is anything that will exacerbate negative attitudes toward the new federal government. letter to david stewart, he expresses specifically his irritation with

john adams for pressing for a high title. the other main piece of evidence i bring to the argument he was is in favor of a high title by looking at james madison during this period. it is very important for all of us to look at james madison and to listen to what he is saying saying, to read what he is writing. during that first year, washington in madison -- , in somen and madison ways, the fact of head of the house, -- de facto head of the house, they were very close, they were two of the founders that were at the constitutional

convention every day in philadelphia. washington and madison. adams was in britain. jefferson was in france. hamilton was there for a while, but left to go back to new york. washingtonson and there every day bonding over these arguments and very committed to the constitution's success. if you listen to what madison is saying, he argues on the house floor. andpeaks on a lot of issues he has washington's public voice. he speaks on the title controversy and other issues and i think you can expect that what you are hearing is what washington feels. issue, madison

speaks on the house floor against titles, against the title of high mightiness, which was the title given to the stakeholders in the netherlands. he totally ridiculed that title, which is the title that is sometimes erroneously associated with george washington today. specifically denigrates that title and then speech on to say in his on the house floor, he alludes to washington and says any title would go against the true executive.this first andlso refers to washington washington's displeasure over

titles in letters. to jefferson and several others. >> it is very persuasive and it fits with the part of washington that is sometimes lost. he was a great politician. this was bad politics. we know from what happens after the debate in congress. you describe how the controversy becomes a more public controversy. what happens then? when the american people find out what the senate has been doing for the first three weeks of the session, what do they say? dr. bartoloni-tuazon: remember the senate met behind closed doors at this time. they have been arguing about the title for three weeks, from april 23, which was the day when they first started the

resolution to come up with the title for the president. which happened to be the same day washington arrived in new york. not ais no doubt this was coincidence. they were, like, let's get a committee together to figure this out. washington goes on to be inaugurated a week later and they are still arguing behind closed doors. on may 14, they capitulate to the house, a formal resolution. it goes into the senate journals. the senate journals are not going to be published right away. they have to be cleaned up and they come out in the press six months later. but the titles resolution was leaked to the press almost as

soon as the ink was dry. the boston papers get it first and then the new york papers get it right after that. it is almost word for word. somebody wanted everybody to know. as soon as the public finds out about this debate -- some of the elites already knew. when the general public finds out about it, it is not like everybody said, great, this is what they are going to do. instead, everybody has an opinion about titles. what happened, it was like the twitter feed gone viral. for the next three or four months, throughout the summer of 1789 and into the fall, it was this fierce debate that sold lots of newspapers. it was obvious the press was, like, oh, my gosh, let's write

some more things about titles and sell some more papers. the public needed to debate this. they had to debate whether the senate had made the right choice. it became obvious the majority of americans agreed with the senate. they were happy with what had happened and what came out of this, the reason i call this cathartic, as a result of this, some of the public spheres about -- the public's fears about their new government, their new congress, their new president, were resolved. they gained more trust that the new federal government, these legislators could argue something as politically volatile as they thought a title for the president was and come solution and the

choice the people agreed with. it was a good thing. >> it landed upon the small republican solution. i wonder if you could talk about some of the lasting impact that this controversy had on the office of the president and i love what you write about the vice president. that is interesting, too. what does this mean in a long-term? dr. bartoloni-tuazon: ok. title gave the people some relief from their fear of an elected king. i got the title of my book in there. relief andm some they gained trust in the government, in the presidency. of the controversy

happening so quickly in the earliest part of the washington administration, as the people gained confidence, it allowed relax about the presidency just a little bit. a sickly, the outcome of the -- basically, the outcome of the title controversy helped the presidency fledge its power by not flaunting its power. >> that is a neat idea. it makes the presidency stronger in the end. what he wanted. -- adams got what he wanted. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: ironically. my argument is because the people were more comfortable with the presidency, itas --

it could start to spread its wings and they could explore the power of the presidency more added baggage the of a high title attached to it. as far as the vice presidency is concerned, my feeling is very strong that the presidential title controversy is one of the great casualties of the presidential title controversy is the relationship between the presidency and the vice presidency. controversy, we basically have the diminished vice presidency that we have to this day. washington backed away from the extremely unpopular adams.

adams, among his colleagues in gues, was called his rotundity. among the public, he was referred to as the dangerous vice. he was called the spawn of satan. washington backed away from adams, never to return. is the vice president a member of washington's cabinet? no. could he have been? that washington could have done whatever he wanted with that vice president position. he did nothing.

adams himself contributed to this because of his own attitude toward the vice presidency. beingcounted that role as the placeholder. if something happened to the president, the vice president was there. adams felt his main job was to be president of the senate. irritated a lot of the senators by trying to throw his weight around. admittedly, over the years, adams passed a lot of deciding votes when the senate was tied, but his influence within that body waned. influenceresidency's in the legislature diminished.

it all starts with the presidential title controversy. >> in the beginning, a lot of people did not notice whether this was an executive branch office or a legislative branch office. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: and it became neither. >> your description of the political rhetoric from the 1790's makes me think of our own rancorous election going on. some of you may have heard about that. i would like to know what you if washington -- what kind of things that are current candidates -- our current president of candidates could have learned from washington's example? dr. bartoloni-tuazon: washington , in this controversy, what i

learned, washington and the developed what i consider to be the first principles of american executive leadership. these are principles that helped no problemscy find with democracy and strength. it helped the presidency grow stronger. through this cathartic controversy over a title, they developed these principles. restraint,sty and which the people got by the simple title and washington supported. not to the --ere

nod to the people, a sincere understanding, and interdependence between the presidency and the people. the president and the people are connected. the people got that by washington supporting the simple title of president, which matched the bulk of popular opinion. these the first principles of executive leadership. today, we often hear the presidency referred to as the modern presidency. that modern presidency no longer adheres to these particular principles, you might argue. i would argue that at the very

least, if you look at the way presidents try so hard to appear , hittingof us broccoli, playing the saxophone, playing basketball, clearing brush, learning football, all of these traits harken back to those principles of simplicity and a nod to the people. in today's parlance, it is often called the late ability -- ability.bili becomere ways that could a cautionary tale. nod to all of the people of

the united states, not just a small minority. these could be a cautionary tale for those running for the presidency today. >> so a big dose of humility. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: by doing that, you gain strength. you gain trust. people trust you to go ahead and be the leaders they want you to be. if you don't think people want a strong leader, they do want a strong leader. they just want somebody they can trust. >> watch out, you might get nominated. other people to consider in this story and other titles at the time. i am dying to know about martha washington. what did the people call martha? mr. president comes later in the 19th century and i don't think the first lady exists. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: washington

was never addressed as mr. president. don't let anybody tell you that he was. he was sir, general, your excellency, and president until the end of his days. just that washington's name attached to treaties and proclamations helped elevate the title of president. because he had that kind of gravitas. president, the simple title for mr.dent allowed president to be something that could come along naturally. for the women at the time, among the federal elite, they were referred to as lady. adams, lady washington. martha washington was called

lady washington. she was not called the first lady. she was also called the lady of the president. she was also called, quite often, the president amiable consort. asa poem, she was addressed our fabian queen. to theme is dedicated amiable consort of the illustrious washington. poem is dedicated to the amiable consort of the illustrious washington. john adams had been ambassador to britain. as ambassador to britain, he was called excellency, as was

abigail. i found evidence that when abigail was back in the united states after that, she was still getting correspondence addressed to your excellency mrs. john adams. >> i will ask one more question and then we will turn it to the audience. please get your questions ready. with the current presidential election, there is a better chance there will be a woman elected for president. electedry clinton was president, will there be a new title controversy? womenrtoloni-tuazon: many are presidents of organizations and they are called madam president. i would assume she would be called madam president.

i do not think there would be a whole lot of debate about that. most women, their husbands would be called mr. or dr. or lieutenant. maybe the first gentleman. i can see the first gentleman being used for bill clinton, but bill clinton is a special case. he was president so he is still president clinton. the controversy i can see, or at least the confusion, would be when hillary clinton and bill clinton would be referred to at the same time as president clinton and president clinton. they will have to work that out. maybe they will always have to identify hillary and bill as their first names.

i am not quite sure how newspapers would deal with that. the presidents clinton. i am not sure. .here would be some confusion still to this day, you get a title and it just follows you forever. >> you are the person they might ask, so be ready. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: maybe i will do another npr. >> we like to have questions from the audience. we have a microphone at the back of the room. if you want to walk back to the microphone. tell us your name and what you do and anything on your mind, any questions you might have, would be terrific. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: dr. much.oni-tuazon thank you so it has been great.

>> you all do not have to run it once. -- you all do not have to run all at once. >> i'm a librarian here at the law school. that by notncern giving the president of the united states a grant title that that would put him in a position of weakness when dealing with foreign dignitaries? dr. bartoloni-tuazon: absolutely. this is a big concern for a lot of people. was yountually happened start to see in literature, people are worried about this. they are worried about the president -- who will follow washington. they were worried -- first, there is washington, but the a shadowident might be

of what washington is. he needs this high title. literature one it, what you see is that people start to say, you know, washington got all of his accolades and all of his reverence and respect without a title. he did not need a high title along the way to get our respect. what we need to do is have these other people try to rise to the top, show what they are without the noise and confusion that a title can bring. that put away that argument -- that is the way that argument turned out. >> i think we have another question. >> i am from the history department. i am wondering what influence

the events in france are having on what is going on. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: thank you. the events in france, the revolution, the news of it is coming slowly over to america. it is starting to arrive in the summer of 1789. it really does not affect the legislative phase. you do not see anything in the newspapers about it during that time of april and may. by july, things have changed. people --ming and what you see in the press is a lot of excitement that france -- getting rid of

titles, throwing titles away. even though the violence that accompanies the french revolution, people start to distance themselves from the french revolution and the papers as they start to hear about the violence. the fact they have tossed away submerged basically -- aristocracy is something they say they are following the american example and it really squelch strong title commentary. at that point, france is on the side of the angels, on the side of the majority in favor of a simple title. you do see in some of the commentary, they do say, this

helps our position. it throws away any arguments in favor of a high title. question i had, you mentioned the modern presidency. imperial presidency. these are one -- this is a hypothetical. if george washington sees the presidency today, what does he recognize and what is completely foreign to him? totally different? dr. bartoloni-tuazon: on this whole imperial presidency concern that props up periodically, i view it as part protectiveness towards the presidency that really started with the ratification of the constitution and the

arguments they had about the presentation -- presidency and the executive branch. gossip andf this innuendo, fierce argument on both sides, should we have a high title or not, what we see is that all sides are very protective for the office. they want their leader to succeed. they are very protective about the office of the presidency and i see this concern about the imperial presidency as part of that tradition of protectiveness for the office. -- howuld washington would washington to the presidency today? presidencyew the

today? he would be relieved that there would be an amendment that made the four-year term. i do not think you could have convinced him it was a good idea because we were at war, for example. i think he might be a little alarmed to see so many executive orders going forward. the veto was a power that was very strong from the very beginning and was something that was discussed during the time in that summer of 1789. congress was already making decisions about an executive veto. that is not something he would be surprised to see. and i know, if i had to bet money on washington's position

on whether he had the right to name a supreme court justice in the last year of his term, i do not think there is any doubt he would feel it was his duty and his right within the power of the presidency to make that choice and make that nomination and send it to the senate and he would expect the senate to act. >> it is amazing how closely he followed the constitution. the fact that he wrote in the margins about what he was supposed to do. the powers required. that is the definition of constitutional governance. you cannot imagine a cromwell or napoleon doing the same thing. as he gotoni-tuazon:

further along in his administration, there is more and more controversy about some of the choices he is making. i do not go into that in my book . i stay within the first couple of years, which is the title controversy. something i am very interested in is the evolution of executive time he wase president. it is obvious to me that he has incredible respect for the people's opinion. not exactly a fear of the people's opinion, but a sincere respect. a lot of it is because he was a virginian and the virginians were suspicious of the constitution. friendton and his good george mason basically became

estranged over their differences of opinion about the constitution. he lost a friend during that period. result, he was always concerned about following the constitution, doing the right thing, and not alarming the people. what i would like to see, explore more, how much of the consideration of the view of the majority did he take into account? you can see, letters that show you about the title controversy. i am not sure if he is open enough in some of his other decisions later on. opinion as of public a new thing.

but it is there from the very beginning. he is having his associates go out and talk to the people. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: david stewart did not just write to him by happenstance. stewart, yould need to write to me and tell me what is going on in virginia. i want to know what is going on in virginia. he is writing back to stuart and part of the reason -- writing back to david stewart, and he wants to hear. letter, them in another i want to hear what the people are thinking because if i i have made the decision they do not agree with, he actually says, i will reconsider. i will reconsider what i have done and effect a solution if i need to. >> that is great.

that is great. importantparties, so today to our system of government. they were something washington despised. can you say a little bit about that? why did washington to test political parties -- detest so much?ical parties so dr. bartoloni-tuazon: i think he -- theot be happy president is the leader of the political party he is associated with today. strongnt's legacy is how he leaves his party at the end of his administration.

i think washington would not be happy with that. brought tooarties much self-interest. >> in it for themselves and not the country. dr. bartoloni-tuazon: he wanted country on a civic virtue kind of footing and he wanted to keep the constitution as free of politics as it could be. partiesy did not view parties asy viewed opportunities for mischief. in his presidential inaugural

noress, he encourages factionalism. controversy, in the senate's final resolution on titles, one of the things in capitulationtal in favor of president. the senate says at one point, to keep harmony with the house, we will agree with them. that is not something you see today anymore. i think washington would say part of the reason for that is the self-interest that comes with parties. >> you have given us so much to think about during this election season. really fantastic. we have a small gift from your

alma mater, a token of our appreciation. a bust of george washington. thank you so much. [applause] >> thank you for this amazing turnout. we want to welcome everybody to the lobby of the museum. [video clip] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] americansted in history tv? visit our website. american artifacts, wrote to the white house, lectures and history, and more at

c-span, created by america's television companies and brought to you as a public service by your cable or satellite provider. >> each week, "american artifacts," takes viewers into historic sites around the country. we visited the newseum's pulitzer prize photographs gallery. we will hear about the hunt gary and immigrant who created a newspaper empire in the late 19th century and the prices that carry his name. we will in the story behind his images. >> i'm the director behind this development at the newseum in washington dc and we are