cia director john before. e -- brennan will testify live on c-span3 on thursday at 9:00 a.m. >> i often say that 50 is not the new 30 and 6 o is not the new 40. 50 is the new 50 and it looks good and it's okay. and that people are to own their age and we ought not be talking about being over 50 as the period of decline. >> sunday night on q&a, aarp's ceo talks about the health and financial challenges older americans face and what aarp is doing to assist them.

she is also the author of "living best life at every age." >> the fastest growing segment is people over 85. the second is the people over the age of 100. and so when the program were put in place life expectancy was 67 or 68. so not only are there more people in the system, but they're living longer. and so we have to be able to look at the program and make meaningful adjustments that's going to allow people to live with dignity at a much longer period of time. >> that's sunday night on c-span's q&a. >> the number of air traffic controllers has hit a 30-year loechlt they rale recently held a hearing on theish would you witnesses from the federal aviation administration and the national air traffic controller's association.

the pennsylvania congressman chairs the committee. >> good morning. the subcommittee will come to order. i like to thank you for being here. before we proceed -- hearings and assure you that will be a top committee priority for safety and remember the tragedy and the loss that you all suffered. and if any of you think this hearing date was arbitrary, it's not. so please help me in recognizing ranking member rick larsson's birthday. rick, happy birthday. if only my birthday was on air traffic control staffing

meeting. dreams come true. >> dreams come true. okay. so again, thank you all very much. at a subcommittee roundtable in december, the d.o.t. inspector general and air traffic controller's association high litd a number of challenges to the faa continues to face in ensuring that our nation's busiest air traffic control facilities are staffed with the most experienced and highly trained air traffic controllers or cpcs. like most people, when i board major airliner, i assume the pilots are highly experienced and well trained. and that flight under today's air traffic control system is going to be guided to its destination by hard-working team of dedicated faa air traffic controllers. like with airline pilots, we assume faa's 14,000 plus controller workforce are highly trained and experienced. however, in 2012 and in 2016,

the d.o.t.ig found that a high percentage of the controllers that are busiest atc facilities including terminal radar approach, control facilities and n. atlanta, chicago, dallas-ft. worth, houston, and new york are so-called developmental controllers who can't manage traffic without the direct supervision of a fully certified controller or facility manager. in addition, of the 14,000 plus controller workforce, just over 10 10,600 controllers are fully certified which is a 27-year low. we're also concerned about the safety implications of the rising work load for cpcs, many of whom are subject to mandatory six day work weeks and high rates of overtime. the drop in cpcs can be attributed to several factors. over the past several years, the

faa has strugled to replace the thousands of controllers who were hired during the 1981 professional air traffic controllers organization strike. most of whom have reached the agency's mandatory retirement age of 56. the faa's hiring efforts were severely hampered in 2013 when the agency stopped training new hires at its training academy in oklahoma city due to sequestration. in 2014, the faa abruptly changed the controller hiring process and made even further poorly executed changes in 2015. consequently, the faa has missed the controller hiring targets for six consecutive years. in the past year the faa made some progress on hiring front with the agency's stating it will reach the hiring goal this year. some of the internal bottle neck that's were highlight ted december roundtable include

prolonged security and medical reviews and they have been addressed. the faa has worked on a policy to facilitate the transfer of controllers to the busiest facilities. that being head, we have a long way to go. in addition to seeing little improvement in the development of fully certified controllers, we're concerned that the agency's revamped controller hiring process is not putting forward the highest quality controller candidates as evidenced by a it 20% drop in the faa academy pass rate nins the hiring process would change with the academy failures 1shgs 42% above the fy-2015 forecasted level. yesterday the parents and instructors of one of our nation's many fine collegiate training initiatives, cti institutions, met with me to share their frustrations with the faa's revamped controller

hiring process. the story i heard many times over in the past two two years. but one that is no less saddening. the experience led me to conclude that current controller hiring process is underserving our nation and flying public. nearly 3,000 highly qualified cti graduates who want to serve as air traffic controllers were left in the cold when the faa changes were made in hiring process with many more abandoning hopes because they aged out and left in the cold with no notice of any kind that changes were being made after expending on some cases huge sums of money. and, yet, they -- we are holding a hearing on inadequate controller staffing levels. i hope that our witnesses can explain why the faa eliminated the cti program preference. if further progress is not made

in the areas of controller hiring, placement and training oushgs nation's atc system may not be able to handle rising airline operations and passenger demand which is expected to reach one billion passengers by the end of the next decade. should the faa not hire, train, and retain sufficient number of controllers, the faa may be forced to reduce airline operations to the detriment of passengers, shippers and overall economy to ensure safety is not compromised. we saw the scenario played out in april 2013 when the faa curtailed atc operation as cross the country due to sequestration related control are furloughs causing weak delays and cancellations. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses on ways question work together to address the long standing problems. before i recognize my colleague mr. larsson for his comments, i'd like to ask unanimous consent that all members may

have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous material for the record of this hearing. without objection, so ordered. now i'd like to yield to mr. larsson for any comments he may make. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i hope this hearing will enform and encourage progress on a timely re-authorization bill. as we know, the current extension expires july 15th. today we hear from witnesses with several perspectives regarding air traffic control staffing. i welcome any discussion of what we need to keep our spaces the safest and most efficient in the world. the office of the inspector general from whom we have a representative testifying to day provides a good starting point for our discussion. the oig reported earlier this year that the fay fanz to face challenges and ensuring enough fully trained controllers at critical facilities.

we should krt bigger picture. there is no evidence of safety lapses associated with the staffing issues. we're living in the safest period of aviation history. every day usair lines safely transport about two million passengers around the country. at the same time, there is no evidence of decreased efficiency to the staffing. in fact, the department of transportation reported on air libz on time performance improved by 3% in april. the healthy airline industry is critical for our international competitors. the airlines are doing well financially. the system is seay safe and the system is operating efficiently. but i make this observations not to deny the need for continued oversight and vigilence on the subcommittee's part retiring the hiring, training, and staffing of air traffic controllers. i think it's critical to keep this hearing in proper speaker inspective. that says, i am concerned about understaffing the critical facilities. potential check -- choke points

in the air traffic control system such as when passengers first feel the ripple effects of the line of thunderstorm over nebraska, facilities like radar approach control and cities in new york, atlanta, dallas-ft. wor worth, chicago, all need more controllers. on average, three quarters of controllers in the facilities are fully certified controllers. the rest are trainees and manufacture the fully certified controllers are eligible for retirement. it is i didn't think call that they demonstrate two things. it is hiring enough controllers ahead of projected retirements. and it has at built to shift controllers from other facilities to the critical facilities. and while there is more work to be done, i'm encouraged on some progress. we're on pace to hire 1,619 controllers this year and the agency has over 2400 controllers available in canada pools. the faa in collaboration with the national air traffic

controllers association has streamlined the process for transferring controllers between facilities more quickly, reducing the late time and certifying the facilities. but the faa can make further improvements and should not hesitate to hire more controllers when staffing needs require it. the faa academy, inexperienced controls have to train before being placed in a facility has the capacity to matriculate only 1,999 controllers per year. and before controllers can attend the faa has to conduct a background check and the faa has to process about 300 per month. this hearing is an important exercise in the subcommittee's oversight and safety and efficiency of the air traffic control system. by all of the objective measures, facilities staffs and shortages have not compromised safety and capacity today. but i do look forward to hearing from our witnesses on what we need to do to ensure that that

remains the case. i thank you for holding this hearing and i yield back. >> thank you mr. larsson. i'd like to welcome and recognize the chairman of the full economy. >> thank you. and i want to start by welcoming a group of young people from my district. they're participating in the pennsylvania electorate youth program. they're all the ones standing. they have young legs. they can stand a little bit. welcome to washington. it's great that you're here and seeing what's going on in your federal government in the nation's capitol. also, i'd like to say happy birthday to the other man from everett, mr. larsson. for those of you from my district, he is from everett, washington. as you know, i'm from everett, pennsylvania. we share that. happy birthday, rick. an also i want to say glad to see mr. holmgren here. he is a real advocate and trying to get things done to hire the controllers we need. thank you for being here today. aviation safety is a top priority of this committee.

in fact, across all areas it's a top priority. the u.s. has the safest aviation systems in the world. that is largely due to the dedicated and professional work of our air traffic controllers and the faa safety personnel. however, it is clear from the reports that faa has not hired and trained enough fully certified controllers at our busiest atc facilities to make up four the thousands of controllers hired during the 1981 strikes. it's not clear where the faa dropped the ball m problems can be attributed to sequestration as well as the timing and poor execution of questionable changes to the controller hiring process. this is another example of the faa's long standing inability to adequately manage the controller workforce. and that's a big reason i believe one of the biggest reasons why the atc reform that i proposed and we passed out of this committee we should take up. and the faa has a history of whether it's hiring or not hiring personnel or being able

to deploy a modern air traffic control system again. we ought to continue to work towards a breaking out the atc from the faa, allowing to operate as an entity that can hire, maintain, deploy a modern and safe aviation system. so i'll continue to push for that. again, under the status quo, the passengers will suffer from the faa's force to reduce air traffic flows across the country. and just imagine, we see the news reports today of the lines at the tsa has. and that's causing some delays. it's causing passengers thousands and thousands of passengers to miss their flights or miss their connections. imagine if we don't have the flow of the air traffic control, the lines will be not in the airport, the lines will be on the tarmacs. planes will be waiting with hundreds of passengers waiting in line to get to the next destination. missing connections and missing flights being canceled. so this is a serious problem we have to address. and again, i appreciate chairman holding this hearing. i look forward to hearing from

our witnesses today. thank you. i yield back. >> thank you. we're pleased to welcome and recognize mr. defazio. >> thank you, mr. chairman. you know, we -- our air traffic controllers are doing a phenomenal job. some of them are being forced into mandatory overtime six day weeks. that's not sustainable. certainly doesn't help recruitment into the busiest areas of the country, particularly new york and others. we have to look at ways to endeuce fully qualified controllers to move there. and, you know, we also have to facilitate the hiring of qualified people and the full certification. you know, there is legislation and i've spoken to the chairman about this and i'm trying to remember the number introduced by mr. malonehr a292 which would

help in the hiring process, particularly targeting veterans and otherwise experienced controllers. to move on and to get to work. so i would hope that we would take up that bill. i think it's a noncontroversial bill. i suggest since we're doing a lot of pretent legislation around here on the floor, maybe we should do some real legislation and put that bill through, you know, before congress embarks in yet another one of the long breaks in this year which is more breaks than work. the issue is critical. many people have been talking about this for years. and we've seen the shortage, the aging of the workforce coming. and it's pastime to do something about it. but despite all that, the air traffic controller is doing such an extraordinary job.

you know, the number of air traffic control related flight delays actually decreased by 17 1/2% in the last two years. i think that's an extraordinary testimony to them and the work they're doing. but i think it's not sustainable without an adequate workforce. so i'm very worried that this will hurt our retension if we don't bring in some more help. the chairman also mentioned tsa. i have a bill on. that he recommend the members of the committee every american is taxed every time they buy a ticket and it's infinite wisdom, the congress put through one of the really bad budget deals written by speaker ryan and patty murray, it's a bipartisan problem, which decided to divert one dollar, $1.2 billion each year from security fees into the eejer. deficit reduction or some other

part of government. to get enough tsa agents out there according to the union, would cost about a third of the money that's being diverted. it's not right to tax people for something and then take the money away. so i would also recommend that does relate to our system and it's efficiency. it's no longer under the jurisdiction of this committee. but i would recommend it to my colleagues if they're concerned about that. with that, i look forward to hearing from witnesses. >> thank you. now we're going to turn to our first panel with one witness. it is congressman randy holtgren. randy has been very passionate about this issue and we welcome hearing from you, randy. >> chairmen, thank you for your help on. this thank you for letting me be theer morning and make remarks. this is an issue that i have scrutinized over the last three

years, it's very important to me and my constituents and air traffic controllers nationwide. as a former member of this subcommittee and i also represent several hundred air traffic controllers in illinois, the largest number in illinois, i met with many of them and many who aspire to become atcs. the students have put in long hours with our nation's military and reputable and accredited institutions to gain the skills and education to be entrusted with the public safety which is bestowed on our air traffic controllers. as a weekly commuter from o'hare to reagan, i'm invested in making sure that our skies are safe. only 30% of trainees at the chicago trade con reach full certification. ensuring we have a sufficient number of air traffic controllers is paramount to secure air traffic. that means cutting back traffic and hurting our economy. no controller means to flights. that's why i was surprised and

confused with the faa when they changed the long standing hiring procedures without warning in 2014 and launched an enus in social science experiment. students, teachers and administrators of the collegiate training initiative were blindsided by the faa's decision and told me of the negative effects. for decades, the cti training program established by the faa itself was the recognized and trusted pipeline for highly qualified candidates and military veterans. most disturbingly, i believe new hiring standards jeopardize air travel safety by diverting -- veterans in an attempt to elevate off the street candidates. why the faa did this remains unclear. what is clear is that the faa has been less than trarnz parns and open. an investigation revealed the effects of the modifications not only aspiring air traffic controllers but on the legitimacy of the hiring process itself. the investigation also revealed

that faa or aviation related employees may have assisted in giving potential recruits special access to answers on key admissions tests to help them gain jobs with the faa. yet the faa has refused to respond to audio, video, and witness accounts of misconduct. they conducted a self audit of the allegation and cleared themselves of any wrongdoing. this is no way to run an agency that is responsible for the welk of thousands of lives every day. a new and confusing psychological test, the faa repeatedly has been nonresponse i. that's why since 2014 i called for a congressional hearing on these issues and grateful to the chairman for invite meg to speak here today. we still have more questions than answers. today we need answers. we need answers about the alleged cheating. the administrator stated that he tasked two internal officers within the faa to conduct thundershower owe investigati

thorough investigations of the cheegt. they failed to uncover what was demonstrated clearingly on audio recordings. they never denies of the cheating allegations. so which it is? march filed a motion in federal court admitting the agency is unable to recover missing and corrupted e-mails at the center of the algdz cheating do. they demonstrate whether the faa knew someone on the inside was helping people cheat? when will administrator horta come forward with the results of the investigation? we need answers about the discredited buy graphical assessment and who validated it if, anyone. how did some candidates fail the buy graphical questionnaire in 2014 and then pass it in 2015? why were the candidates allowed to sit for the test in an unsecured location without showing proof of id? as a result of the faa's chachgs, many clearly qualified cti graduates and military veterans were disqualified by a test. they don't understand and cannot improve upon even after years of education and experience. many have now aged out of the

process forever losing their chance to join the ranks of air traffic controllers. where is the relief for these individuals. americans deserve an answer. where do we go from here? i introduced hr 1964, the air traffic controllers hiring act 206 2015 to restore safety and confidence to air travel. i'd like to thank you for your support on my bill. i also want to thank you for the co-sponsorship of this legislation. my bill prefers hiring stat quus for cti graduates, qualified veterans and experienced controllers and provides relief for those aged out of the process. it eliminates the use of the buy graphical assessment. my colleague introduced similar legislation this congress hr 5292 i thank him for shared information on this. his legislation creates two

separate hiring pools. the hires from the two pools may not exceed the 10% difference. however, i have concerns that should the faa hire more pools equally, it would disadvantage our cti graduates and military veterans. i worked tirelessly to instead create a three pool system of cti graduates, veterans and hires which would alleviate this problem. i welcome continued conversations with you and understand the politics and rational for the two pool approach. this isn't just about securing fair job application process before the status quo. this is about americans feeling and being safe and secure when flying. this is about transparency and openness from a agency. i'm grateful for all of you for your attention and work on this issue. i look forward to reaching solution that's provide fairness and safety and security for all. thank you, chairman. i yield back. >> thank you, randy, very much. now we're going to move to the

second panel. so we'll give the staff a second to set up and while they're doing that, i will introduce the second panel which includes miss terry bristol, chief operating officer of the air traffic control organization at faa who is accompanied by mr. ricky cannon, assistant administrator for human resources at the faa. we're also joined by mr. matt hampton who we're pleased to welcome back again, assistant and inspector general for aviation audits, united states department of transportation. mr. paul renaldi, president of the national air traffic controller's association, and mr. randy bab obitt, senior vic president for relation affairs for southwest airlines. we thank you all for being here. and ms. brinstol, you are now

recognized for your statement. microphone, please. >> chairman, ranking member, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss our air traffic controller workforce. our controllers are proud professionals who are entrusted with our mission to run the safest, most efficient airspace system in the world. the national airspace system is an extremely complex operation. we need to continually meet both the on going and the emergency needs of aviation community. therefore, we must remain committed to hiring, training, and supporting the best controller workforce in the world. today i'd like to discuss four key areas of the faa's controller staffing process. hiring, training, placement and our collaboration with the national air traffic controller as association. let me start by discussing

hiring. the agency has created two hiring tracks, one track is focused on reaching candidates with no previous air traffic experience. candidates must meet the position's minimum qualifications and pass validated occupational tests which include biographical assessment in the air traffic selection and training test. the second track is a specialized air traffic control experience track. it focuses on reaching candidates with operational experience such as military veterans with at least one year of air traffic control experience. with these changes in our hiring process, the ato was on track not only to meet but to exceed the fy-16 hiring goal. this hiring process better addresses the agency's current hiring needs. it also ensures equitable treatment in the broadest pool of qualified candidates. we will continue to monitor and

refine the process as necessary to ensure the best possible individuals are selected to maintain safety and efficiency of the mass. our robust training program at the faa academy and in our facilities provides a strong foundation for our new controllers. we made continual improvements in our training curriculum in the last five years. the faa administrator recently convened an aviation rulemaking advisory committee with 11 experts from industry and the academic community. they will work with the faa to evaluate innovative approaches for future hiring and training of air traffic controllers. the air traffic organization supports the air traffic controller basic qualification training working group under the aviation rulemaking advisory committee.

we're also establishing a center of excellence for technical training and human performance. this enables us to explore opportunities for cost share research and grants that could be used to help shape the future of air traffic controller training. we're also focused on placing controllers in the right facilities. there is a priority placement tool to prioritize controller staffing requirements. it captures the latest priority ranking of all 315 facilities and it's sorted in order of greatest staffing need. we place trainees where we need them. collaboration is paramount to our success. the best way to meet staffing challenges is to collaborate with our labor partners. this means working together to make better decisions. our collaboration supports our ability to place controllers

where we need them. we're jointly defining our priorities and working to improve the process by which controllers requests are assignments to other facilities the in addition, we've established a clibtive resource working group that is reviewing the staffing models that we have in place. in conclusion, i believe the faa has a solid and comprehensive plan to address the controller hiring and placement and we collaborate to ensure success. we made tremendous progress in recent months. i believe we're on the right track. while we're always looking for ways to improve, the air traffic system in the united states is extremely safe and efficient. it remains the envy of the world. we look forward to working with our government and industry partners to consider even better ways to meet air traffic needs of the future. this concludes my statement. i'll be happy to answer your

questions. thank you. >> thank you, miss bristol. now we turn to mr. hampton for your statement. thank you for being here. >> chairman shuster, thank you for inviting me to testify today on the key challenges facing faa's air traffic controller works for. my remarks today are based on a report published earlier today in our on going work for the committee. today, the total number of fully certified controllers are 365 o. that is at the lowest range. furthermore, a look at individual facilities highlights a number of pressing challenge that's demand urgent attention. our analysis of faa's most critical traffic control facilities, the most complex and busiest ones in the national airspace system shows that over half of the 23 facilities have certified controller staffing levels well below minimal staffing requirements. these include new york, atlanta, dallas, and chicago trade coms.

the facilities are stress bid large percentages of controllers in training and controllers eligible to retire. we found that these problems are the result of several factors including lack of precision with faa's model for estimating staffing requirements for facilities that manage high altitude operations, not fully utilizing systems to maximize controller schedules, a lack of accurate and complete data on retirements and training times and poor communication between headquarters and the field. in term of hiring, faa introduced several changes to the controller hiring process over two years ago in february 2014. based on internal and external reviews. the changes included standardizing the minimum qualifications for all applicants, centralizing the processes and the office of human resources, and introducing a new screening mechanism known as the buy graphical assessment. however, the agency lacked

implementation strategy for the new policies. as the committee is well aware, stake holders expressed concerns that they implement the new process a month over announcing the changes even though they were significant. in addition, faa did not establish an effective tracking system to monitor candidates as they moved through the pipeline. it is too soon to assess the overall impact of faa's new hiring process and whether or not it will lead to successful outcomes and getting new controls certified faster facilities given the length of time it takes to train the controllers. our work shows that they continue to face challenges and meeting the hiring. they lack metrics on the time you take as they advance through the hiring process. in addition mshgs of the new hires selected to the new process have not yet completed required on going board processes contributing to the delays. we expect to complete our report later this year and our recommendations for corrective

action. there are also several issues that will effect the workforce in the near term that require attention. first, implementing scheduling tools to help facility managers better manage resources. particularly at large complex facilities. we recommended and faa agreed to adopt a tool that is widely used in other countries. this will help significantly. second, accelerating efforts to develop procedures, training and tools to controllers to safely manage unmanned aircraft systems in the same airspace as other aircraft. faa is taking steps to address our recommendations. finally, assessing the work load and productivity impact of new next gen technologies like the $1.6 billion that will allow them to communicate with pilots via messaging. this is important. studies suggest that this technology could allow controllers to handle 30% more aircraft. in summary, the total training, hiring, and staffering issues are long standing concerns and

require sustained faa management attention and action. mr. chairman this concludes my statement. i'd be happy to answer any questions you or the subcommittee may have. thank you. >> thank you very much, mr. hampton. mr. renaldi, you're recognized. >> good morning, chairman. happy birthday, ranking member larsson. chairman shuster and members of the aviation subcommittee. thank you for the opportunity to testify about one of the most critical problems facing our national airspace system. we all have a stake in our national airspace system. it's an economic engine contributing 1$1.5 trillion to our country. we run the safest, most complex, most diverse airspace in the world. our system is unique. unequal and unrivalled by any other country. this is due to a large part in the work with the men and women i represent who run this system. the united states airspace

system is considered the gold standard in the world aviation community. and yet, the air traffic controller cross-iceous puts this status at risk. we held a meeting to discuss the air traffic control staffing. that he vent was the catalyst to collaborate and develop solution onz many aspects of the staffing crisis. with the changes we have made are small steps in the right direction. air traffic control staffing has been a concern for many years. it is now reached a crisis level. controlling staffing at 10% since 2011. the faa has missed the hiring goal in each of the last seven years. with one-third of the current workforce eligible to retire, the bureaucratic structure is failing us. stop and go funding contributed to staffing problems n 2013, due to sequestration, the faa froze hiring, shut down the faa academy and since then it has

not been able to catch up. after sequestration of 2000, the sequestration of 2013 kushgts the faa reduce third down th3,0 because of bq which is fundamentally flawed. they work with the faa to validate the secretary bq with a large number of controller workforce before they used it in the 2015 vacancy announcementn july of 2015, they retired the military control program which we known as rmc. piling on, faa hr decided that the air traffic control selection test could nobt ut bed again. we worked hard to encourage members to validate a new exam. this say full day test. and with our controller staffing crisis it is not an easy task. the validation is not complete

yet and the faa will not post a vacancy announcement until it s the bureaucratic, self inflicted wounds have delayed the hiring of new employees. since the roundtable discussion in december, the faa collaborated to make progress. the job is far from complete. we believe the faa must take a holistic approach. we should not do anything to make the current situation worse or delay hiring or slowing training or reduce the staffing targets. we don't just come with a concern. we believe that nerve this room could work together and get a solution. congress needs to pass an faa re-authorization bill and provide a necessary, stable, predictable funding to operate a fully staffed national airspace system. sequestration must be fixed or the faa should be exempted. otherwise, we see another hiring freeze, reducing staffing, seek

furloughs, delays and reduce capacity. we support the passage of the bill which would stream like the hiring process by ensuring that they'll be hired quickly with fewer bureaucratic hurdles and allow graduates to be hired without being subject to the viral data questionnaire. the faa needs to hire as many experienced controllers that are qualified. in addition, it should be hiring 2,000 inexperienced employees per year to maximize the through put through the faa academy. our controllers are dedicated highly skilled professionals. the best in the world. they're forced to shoulder of chronically understaffed facilities. they're doing an amazing job every day under this staffing crisis. but it's time for some relief. no one wants interruptions in service, delays, decreased capacity, least of all our air traffic controllers. i want to thank you for calling this hearing and continue to

keep our staffing crisis front and center. we must remain vigilant and continue it move the ball forward, otherwise, we're hard pressed to maintain the current capacity let alone expand and modernize our system. i thank you for the opportunity to testify today. i look forward to answering any of your questions. >> thank you, mr. republican aldy. now we turn to mr. babbitt for your statement. you're recognized. >> thank you. chairman shuster mr. larsson, members of the aviation subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee today to discuss the issues that are related to air traffic controller hiring, staffing, and training. i come before this body today actually wearing a number of hats that i collected over the years, almost five decades in aviation. those hats are airline executive, administrators of the faa, former president of an airline union and a former commercial airline pilot. and because of my former lives, if you woshgs in aviation, i think i offer a unique

perspective on a number of these issues. but first and foremost, i'm here today as a senior executive from southwest airlines. southwest is, as you may know, the nation's largest domestic carrier in term of carrying passengers in the country, 150 million passengers customers and annually with a combination of low fares, no annoying fees and a friendly customer service that is developed by outstanding people in a safe and reliable operation. we operate southwest a fleet of over 700 boeing 737 aircraft operating nearly 4,000 flights a day over will 87 u.s. destinations and 11 international destinations and every single one of those flights is in controlled airspace. so to say the least, we're gent upon and highly appreciative of a robust, highly skilled air traffic controller workforce. my prior roles as the faa administrator and commercial

airline pilot, i was proud to interact daily with the professional men and women of the usair traffic controller workforce. dedication to aviation safety, operational efficiency and professional integrity is truly remarkable. and it leads to the fact that we all must have confidence in this atc system. during my 50 years of flying, i never have lost that confidence and it's in large measure due to the skill and professionalism of the nation's air traffic controllers. now with that said, my confidence in overall atc system today is a little bit shaky. i have no concern, let me underscore, no concern from a safety perspective. the safety of the atc system is never in doubt. but i do question the reliability of the overall atc system from an operational and customer service perspective. the u.s. aviation system is both labor and capital intensive and like other modes of transportation in other sectors in the aviation industry, prolonged underfunding of

staffing needs and system improvements will eventually take its toll as it has with the d.c. metro and the tsa security apparatuses, two examples. all of this produces concerns about whether the current atc system can be sustained in the present form. eventually without major structural changes and greater funding and staffing certainty, serious inconvenience to aircraft operators and ultimately to our customers and your constituents will result. specifically in, delivering to the beneficial nextgen technologies and to avoid the crisis, the federal government needs to do more to address the supply of certified controllers as well as providing the required training to fully utilize the nexgen capability that are available today, principally, navigation and other capabilities expected to be rolled out in the near future, data communications in the en route environment.

aviation traffic is forecast to grow steadily. and certainly having certified controller staffing levels continue to decline with no relief in sight is not going to be helpful. this seems to be particularly problematic with critical atc facilities which require the most experienced controllers to manage the complex operations skillfully and efficiently. and as the nation's largest domestic airline, it concerns us and challenges our promise to our customer that's we'll provide friendly, reliable, and on time service. due to our concerns with the future capabilities of the atc system and the current pace of progress with regard to the next gen program, southwest joined most of the airline community and several aviation unions including natca to support significant structural financing, procurement reforms all contained within the house version of the faa re-authorization act.

they generate more than 12 million jobs. we believe that such an important economic engine will struggle to meet future demand under the current system challenged by the fits and starts of annual appropriations process and the threat to sequestration or government shutdowns. we applaud the committee and looking for these important issues to resolve and at least recognizing that the status quo is not acceptable. so hopefully a bipartisan solution can be acleefd sooner rather than later. on behalf of southwest airlines, i thank you for this opportunity to testify and i'll be happy to answer any questions later. thank you. >> mr. babbitt, thank you very much. we'll now turn to mr. shuster for questions. >> thank you, mr. chairman. let me start off by saying first of all, i know mr. babbitt in your long distinguished career you were on the '93 commission that recommended the type of atc reform that we proposed here and

passed out of committee. i appreciate you being here today, your long service and your wisdom and trying to figure out how we change this system and right this ship so we can have safer, more efficient air traffic control system and airspace in america. so far this morning we learned that the faa missed its own controller hiring targeted in each of the last six years. and the percentage of the controller trainees being used are at near record levels in our busiest air traffic controlled facilities. in an effort to right the ship, you said you changed, revamped your controller hiring process twice in three years this happened. i, for one, i'm very skeptical and doubtful that record of six years not being able to meet i think the latest numbers is you're behind in hiring the type of people that we need to get in the facilities. so i'd like our witnesses, at

least mr. hampton and mr. babbitt if, you'll give the faa on a scale of an a to an f their performance and hiring placement and training over the last five years. mr. hampton? >> that's a dangerous thing to ask an ig to give a grade. on this one, given the -- what we've done over the years on the critical facilities long standing, we would have to give them an incomplete. we think it's a long standing issue that needs continued management. incomplete. it's staininging grade. >> sounds like you're a politician. i would expect you to come down hard one way or the other. mr. renaldi? >> i'm going to go with the incomplete also if that's appropriate. you said a through f. i go with the incomplete. you know, the self inflicted bureaucratic processes that they put in place, i still can't consciously figure out why they would decide to do such a thing.

but at the end of the day, they are trying to make changes. since the roundtable discussion, we're seeing changes. keep in mind, not that i would grade this great body, stop and go funding does impact it. >> i would do that. and i would be in the politician or ask the questions, i'd give congress a d minus on what we've done over the last 20 or 30 years on the funding level, the different pieces of legislation that we've passed that we have not enforced with our oversight of the faa but i would give us a d minus. maybe a d since it's larsson's birthday today. mr. babbitt? now you're in the trickiest position of all. because you have to deal with the faa every single day. >> so i'm going to default to the fail/pass voting method and give them a passing grade but as a good teacher, mentor might try to do, i say that with caveats.

i think it's tools they need for the performance of what we have asked them to do. and again, the fuping, the changing of external circumstances for them being forced to furl low, all of that is detracted from their grade but not their fault. so i guess i will default to the point of stabilizing the funding, have a clear path and having the ability to put your hand up occasionally and say, look, we need more money to do this. this is a critical piece and we can't do it with the fund williing and the budget you have set for us. i think all of those with would help them improve that grade and get into a good college. >> i want to ask you to grade yourself, but again, why should we is assume after six years of failure, after the last two, three years changing the system twice, tell us the metric we need to look for in the next

couple of months, several months, to prove that you are moving forward in a positive way. >> okay. thank you very much. so i think that the first metric to make is to make our hiring targets each year. we're on track to do that this year. we'll probably exceed our goal upwards -- >> when will we see that? >> we've already met the goal, and we expect to exceed it by any number of applicants probably in the high 1600s for this fiscal year. and i think that we have had some challenges over the years, and i think sequestration played a part in that. but i know that there have been a number of changes and i think we are making progress. i think the changes that we've put into place both process and tools i think will continue to bear positive results as we move forward now and into the future. my organization, the air traffic organization, is working very

closely with other parts of the faa including my colleague mr. ricky cannon who is our deputy assistant administrator for human resources. our folks are working very closely together and hiring and training is one of our highest priorities in the agency. we're also working very closely with my colleague paul rinaldi and his team. we've put in place a number of changes in the way that we're working together on how we move people throughout the system, ensuring that we address the highest need facilities first and foremost and really focus on putting our new hires in the lower level facilities. >> okay. well, know we're watching closely and i know this problem has to be solved now because the real damaging effects come down the road if it's not addressed today. >> right. >> so again, thank you for being here. thank you all for being here. >> thank you. >> mr. defazio. >> thanks. i'll move on quickly to the

controller issue but i just want to correct the record mr. babbitt, you can help with this. you served on the '93 commission, that's correct? the '93 commission you served on it, looking at the changing the ato governance? >> i believe that was the '92 commission. >> yeah, you did. >> yes. >> was the conclusion to go to a private corporation, or was the conclusion to establish an independent government corporation? >> i will plead a fair amount of distance between 1992 and today. >> well, i have it here and although ms. row bien and others keep saying we were there, this is what they wanted to do, it actually came to the conclusion it should be an independent government corporation removed from the federal budget process. not a private, not for profit corporation. let's move on to air traffic controllers. ms. bristol, why was this b.a.

created? my understanding is the at sat was compromised and that's part of the rationale for the b.a.? >> congressman, i will attempt to answer your biographical ass created to provide some initial screening as assets matriculated through the process. >> it's not because the at sat had been compromised? >> we can talk about that a little later. but let me try to answer the first question. >> all right, let me just get to my point. i met a person at the last nadca event on the hill who went through the cti, is working as a military controller but can't come aboard with the faa because they can't pass the b.a. and baxt a. seems to be designed to see if you have the temperament to be a controller. if somebody has successfully completed the school and is working without reservations, without problems as a military

air traffic controller, is that test valid? >> yes, sir. the test is valid. both versions of the biographical assessment -- >> i thought you had -- you hadn't valid aested the first one with the workforce and then you redid the b.a. and it has been somewhat validated but there's still questions in my mind about that validation. >> no, sir. >> why would you then want to screen out a person who's fully qualified working as an air traffic controller trained? why would we want to screen her out with a biographical assessment? >> well, i don't believe we want to screen any particular individual. >> but there seems to be a problem. what's the goal? i mean, if the goal is to get people, you know, because it becomes more expensive as you go through the process, you have to apply the atsap, my understanding is it costs you $139 for at sapp compared to 45 bucks for the s.a.t. i'm really kind of wondering about this whole process, the

b.a., the at sat and whether we need two processes or whether we should have one simplified process, which is, do you have the skills necessary, yes or no, and we're going to give you an atsat, we're going to keep it secure so it doesn't get compromised in terms of answers. maybe we can get prince ton to do it for us for 45 bucks a person as opposed to $139. i mean, this whole process is aggravating. i mean, i think we're screening out potentially at least one and i'm sure it's more than one qualify people from becoming controllers. i mean, you're totally confident in this process as the best way to good, b.a., then the atsat? >> yes, sir, i am. and i think it's producing results and ms. bristol just said, we will exceed our hiring target this year. >> okay. that's another question. >> we have a good start. >> ms. bristol, why is the target less than 2,000? the academy has the capability

of processing 2,000. and we have a severe shortage in many of our critical centers, and it's going to take people three years to get there. why are we hiring less than 2,000? >> so as we stepped from 15 to 16, we transitioned to a new controller training contract. we wanted to ensure that we didn't have more trainees in the field than that could go right into training. in other words, we track to the individual where they're at and how many training resources are available to move those people through the system. >> so you're saying that you put through -- your target is because of restrictions in terms of supervision of entry-level controllers. >> it was one consideration. as we move into next year, we're looking to bump that and look to max out the academy as well. in addition to bringing on previous experienced controllers over and above that number. >> right. and the faa as a target minimum head count, which is set by some

sort of mathematical algorithm by the finance people, doesn't sound ideal to me because the green eye shades probably have something else in mind, and then we had the crwgcpc working group, which came up with much more robust levels. so if we had actually applied working group that drilled down into each center and came up with higher numbers, why do we even bother with the mathematical algorithm that p popped out of the finance department? >> that would be be the controller workforce plan it's put out every year. it's stra steej teeth ick. it's very high level. the ato worked with and a half and that -- working group it was ato and nat ka. >> so it's actually practitioners working with the bureaucrats to come up with real nicks as opposed to numbers created by a mathematical alga

ridge. >> it doesn't take into account everyone in a facility. what it does is average out the certified professional controllers and we set targets on how we're going to staff to that level and move people through the system from our more healthy to less healthy facilities. but we have to account for the developmentals that are already in the building. so in working together, i'm very confident. that is how we have laser approach on who we're putting into which facilities. >> mr. rinaldi, can you comment on this b.a. process? when they did the control, how many -- do you know how many controllers took the test and what their pass and fail rate was with the b.a., actual working controllers? >> sure. thank you, sir. when they did the first one in 2014, 28,511 applicants took the b.q. 2,407 passed. so roughly 10% passed.

then we found out later on that -- and i'm not a scientist, but all you have to do is read the first page about a biographical assessmentment. it says the test must be validated with a large group of incumbents. being the only person who -- so we asked the faa if you're going to do this again, you probably need to validate this test. and they did. we did it together and validated it and roughly 18,000 took it and roughly 5,000 passed the b.q., about 28%. again, i don't know much about the science, but i do know there are a lot of qualified people out there that are actually doing the job today that have not passed it. >> thank you. thank you mrshgs cha, mr. chair >> just very briefly, i want to strongly associate with mr. defazio's comments on the revised hiring process. ms. bristol and mr. cannon, do you realize when we're talking about a military air traffic

controller that can't be qualified for civilian air traffic control and you're telling this committee and the rest of the world that you're justifying that your process is valid and trying to make all of us understand how that's okay, how absurd and ridiculous it is to us that somehow you don't kind of regroup and say, look, maybe we've got to relook at this? and if we've got military air traffic controllers that have gone through cti maybe we've done something wrong here? so you're hurt yurgself by doing this. very briefly, we're going to go to mr. akita. but mr. shust achuster asked. >> mr. defazio hit the nail right on the head. i appreciate that. but i want to make sure the record reflects that in my act reform it accomplishes everything he wants too except for it's not in a failed -- the history of america has been failed government corporations. and it take it's out of that and

we've seen around the world that this system works. i just want to make sure that stands on the record too. >> mr. atekiakita. >> ms. bristol, so the military training program doesn't suffice? military controllers can't pass your processes and cannot work in the civil system? >> no, sir. we are hiring any number of former military controllers. in fact, our most recent track two announcement we did in all sources announcement opening continuous back last december we recently hired 260, all veterans, all former mill controllers. well, why can't -- why do they fail? >> sir, the biographical

assessment like any test is basically -- it predicts success at the academy and cpc at first facility. it's not flawless, like all tests. >> so you agree to correct the flaws. >> well, what we've done is we've done our consultant has done the validation work to ensure that the test is valid. that's legally an obligation we have as an agency that any selection procedural tool we use mub validated under the uniform guidelines. >> mr. rinaldi, do you have a comment on this? >> just mr. cannon said something about an open continuous bid. that was closed in march. so if it's open and continuous it would be open all the time i would think. so it's not -- it's actually closed. they have not issued another open continuous bid for experienced controllers or direct hires oust the military. the individual that mr. defazio was speaking about is an actual cti graduate, highly recommended

from the school, and is working in one of our federal contract towers actually performing air traffic control and is not able to pass the b.q. either. >> roger. thank you. continuing on with the cti schools, mr. cannon, can you explain why the faa decided to use a b.a. bachelor arts for general graduates including second can you explain why the faa modified the b.a. so quickly? >> modified the b.a.? >> yes. >> and why we use it? again, we created and use the biographical assessment for the 2014 a's nounsment because it's a good screen and it's validated for success at the academy and success at cpc at first facil y facility. we modified the biographical assessment in 2015 because between the 2014 and the 2015 announcement wshe had enough ti to do a job task analysis to take a deeper look at the

occupation to see if it changed. >> why did you use the same contractor for the buy graphical analysis? >> why did we use the same contractor? >> yeah. when that contractor failed the first time. >> well -- >> wasn't able to do the job correctly the first time. >> well, the contractor did not fail to do the job correctly the first time, sir. >> mr. rinaldi, is that your opinion? >> that is certainly not my opinion. the test was never validated with air traffic controllers so it wasn't valid. that's why it had such a horrible success rate. more importantly, they did have time. they had 3,000 qualified cti students on a list that they basically expunged. they could have hired them for that year and given us the opportunity to validate the test. my executive vice president brought this up to who was the head of hr who's no longer there at this time and they basically put the hand up and said, we know exactly what we're doing. the science doesn't lie. it did lie. it was flawed. >> thank you very much for that

testimony. ms. bristol, purdue university in my district is one of the 36 schools approved to participate in the collegiate training initiative. when the hiring process was changed cti students no longer received a bonus on their application, whatever that looks like, for completing the program. why do you think that's right, that's the right decision not to give priority to these students who are specifically trained to do air traffic control at what -- unless you're a hard iu fan wouldn't agree that purdue is not a good place to get that kind of work done, that kind of training done? >> sir, cti students never got a bonus. what they had was a separate announcement in which they were placed in the inventory. the only thing we've done, if you really look at it closely, is we've taken them and they are just competing in the pool with the rest of the --

>> there's a shortage, sir. why not -- you have these people trained already. why not get them to the front of the line and get them in a tower or get them in a tray con? i don't get it. >> sir, they're actually doing better if you can indulge me for just a second, than they ever have. i'll give you just a few examples. in fy '08 the faa hired 2,096 controllers. 823 of those were cti students. these numbers by the way were reported in the controller workforce plan. that's 37%. and fy '09 faa hired 1731 controllersor, only 335 were cti students, 19%. and then in ny 10 and 11 an independent panel review report that was commissioned by mr. babbitt had when he was the faa administrator, the faa was roundly criticized because in fy 10 and 11 of 1,000 controllers

selection only 33% were cti students. now, in fy 14, 47% of the 1593 people selected were cti grads or had some cti education. in fy 15 that number ballooned to 50%. there were 1452 out of 2895 people who referred. so that's a 50% growth doing nothing at all but putting this new process in place. >> i thank the chairman for his time. i yield back. apparently we don't need to have this hearing chairman. >> mr. lipinski. >> thank you, mr. chairman. having a discussion about whether or not there are shortages or not, i think a couple of things i want to make sure we focus on. 13 of 23 critical facilities were found by the ig to be below the facilities planning staffing

range. and two of these facilities are chicago trey con and chicago o'hare tower which are below the minimum level for cpcs. so we're talking about some of the busiest terminal air space in the entire world. now, in the chicago tray con, chicago center o'hare tower, the percentage of retirement eligible controllers range from 43% to 50%. so clearly we see problems right now and certainly issues in the future with having shortages. i have great concerns about what has been done with the changes to the system for hiring controllers. i know that i have one of the best cti schools in the country in my district, lewis university

in romeoville. professor bill parrot is here today. we talked about this yesterday. i want to point out that there's a 2013 report by the faa civil aeronautical medical institute that said, quote, based on training performance a preference for cti graduates over general applications seems warranted. another in 2814 said, quote, overall larger -- status than did general public hires. now, i know that in hiring procedures were changed in 2013. there was an alarming increase in the number of academy failures in 2015. so it just seems common sense to me as others have noted that it's common sense to hire from cti graduates and veterans first. so ms. bristol, can you tell me how veterans and cti graduates'

performance and training compares with those from the general population? >> congressman, i don't have those statistics with me. i would have to provide those to you. >> okay. i'd very much like to see that because it seems like something we would want to know, especially when we see this increase in academy failures and we want to know who is perform ing best and really is succeeding in the process. now, i want to associate myself with mr. hole krun's comments when he spoke before this panel. we need to figure this out. we cannot have -- i understand that because of the current and coming potential shortages of air traffic controllers we don't want to slow the system down. but we have to get at how we do this best to keep our aviation

safe. we need to get at a lot of those things mr. hole crumb talked about. we need to understand the alleged cheating that went on, to know what happened there. i think mr. hoe krun's bill that i worked with him on hr-1964 is the best way to go about doing this. i'm also co-sponsor -- for the reasons mr. hoe krun laid out there, i think his bill is -- i prefer that bill. but we need to do a much better job here. one question i want to ask. there's probably not any information on it. i'm not sure if it's directly related to what we're talking about here. but ms. bristol, around midnight on june 4th an incoming commercial flight was unable to reach air traffic controllers in the chicago midway tower. the flight diverted to milwaukee

and two other incoming flights entered holding patterns. during this time, the crews remained in contact with tray con in elgin so it wasn't any direct safety issue. but i wanted to know if the faa has determined the cause of this communications difficulty. >> yes. thank you, congressman. with we are investigating that matter. we expect to wrap up that investigation in the next two to three days and we'll certainly circle back with your office to share that information. >> obviously it's very create that we get to the bottom of this incident and also -- getting back, we need to make sure -- i want to find the answer to the question about how cti and veterans perform and that i will yield back. >> thank you, mr. lipinski. mr. micah. >> thank you, mr. chairman and

thank you for letting me go ahead i do have another obligation shortly. we've been talking about training of air traffic controllers for as long as i've been here and we set up a system that is flawed. ms. bristol, how many people do we have that have applied to be air traffic controllers? don't we have a waiting list or something? >> can you answer it, mr. cannon? >> how many people do we have -- >> we had a list apply to get in. how many do we have on the list currently? i know we had thousands at one point. do we still have thousands? >> yeah. >> we have thousands. >> right now -- >> what's the capacity to run through the school at oklahoma? >> 2,000. >> how many? >> 2,000. >> is that during what period of time? >> that would be during the

fiscal year. >> one year you can do 2,000. >> plus we can also put experienced controllers directly into the field to train them. >> and your washout rate i understand is still pretty high from those that come out of oklahoma. is that correct? who knows the washout rate? >> in the en route option the failure rate at the academy is around 30%. >> about 30%. so a third. we have dozens of colleges, universitieses -- i don't have it in my district. emery riddle who can teach these courses. why can't faa set the standard for colleges and universities? right now, aren't we paying -- we were paying them money to go to the school and this big mechanism and a 30% washout rate. are we still paying them to go to school? >> yes, sir. >> yes. all this money we're spending and we have a washout rate and we can't fill the positions. we have plenty of schools that can teach these people if faa can get out of that business.

and there's a role for oklahoma city. when they come out of the colleges or the military air traffic control or something, they should be tested. they should be brought up to date on the very latest protocols. and then they should be dispersed to the vacancies, correct? >> yes. >> so we need to get faa out of that business. they're not doing it right. >> we've with embarked upon -- >> get the colleges and universities and schools that can do this, they'll pay for it themselves, they come out. i see someone in the past behind mr. rinaldi that told me the excellent performance of those that come out of the schoolsedu. if faa can do its job in setting the protocols, the standards, the courses and the certifications to get the hell out of the business, don't you think we could do a better job? >> sir, we've started that

process. >> where's the -- >> we have started a control -- a working group. >> let's totally get out of it. it's nice the legislation pending. but it doesn't solve the problem. the problem is basic, that the structure that we have is fundamentally flawed. okay? so we need to get out, members. listen to this members. introduce legislation that changes the role of oklahoma city and directs faa to set the standards, the certification, and you can do checks on these people. there's a very small washout rate. they're better performers. they're better equipped in many ways to get on the job and fill those gaps. anybody disagree with me? mr. rinaldi? you like it? >> do i disagree with you, sir? >> yeah. >> i think there's a fairness issue when a student ghekboez i

college. i'm paying two college tuitions right now. they're going into a college program to be specifically an air traffic controller and then they come out and they have to take a biographic aal assessmen >> to go back into that, i think you can recraft the role of oklahoma city to test them, to make certain that they are competent, and to see where their skills best match the vacancies that we have in the system. but, you know, there's an unfairness, yes, you but right now the taxpayer is paying for a 30% washout rate to a system that doesn't get people on the job. so i think we need to transition again to a system that can produce them. we -- why should we be paying for this system of failure? it just goes on and on. i've got to run to another function. mr. chairman, members of the committee, we he need to reform this whole process.

anything less you're just messing around. >> thank you. mr. larsen. >> thank you. mr. rinaldi, from all accounts, the naca workforce helps the faa fill its position to provide the safest and most efficient aerospace system in the world. can you point to any safety lapses in the last year that you would associate with controller staffing levels? >> no, sir. the controllers plug into their position day in and day out to maintain first and foremost the safety of the national air sfais space system. if they're working double positions because staffing is short, then capacity will have to be appropriately reduced to make sure they're not in a safety concern. >> so the first option would be to reduce capacity as opposed to trying to keep capacity levels the same if there's an issue an staffing. >> absolutely. >> mr. babbitt as well, apart

from the service reductions associated with sequestration, can southwest airlines point to any other air traffic control related delays or service reductions? >> we certainly have our suspicions. we rely somewhat on anecdotal data or information. >> be sure to get right in the microphone there. >> with we do have our suspicions. we don't have clear insight into a lot of the granular pieces when an air traffic control facility begins to increase spacing, things like that, ground stops. we don't necessarily know what the issue is within that station. we do know of a couple, though, a good example in the chicago center they have a metering station that has been somewhat short-staffed. the problem for you us is they have adjacent sector vectoring so aircraft coming out of chicago center going into the

minneapolis center they have a protocol. well, if there's not staffing in either of those centers it doesn't happen and it's not happening. and what that leads to you for us is increased vectoring, increase fuel burn, longer en route times. it's a delay. i mean, we pay the financial penalty. we burn 2 billion gallons of fuel a year, and it's expensive. so anytime we can reduce that and use the enhanced procedures, we welcome it. those are the kind of restructuring. midway tower itself has the same issue. they don't sometimes cannot staff a metering -- ground metering system that they use for lack of personnel in the tower. so it leads to us for increased tarmac times. you just sit longer on the ramp burning fuel, delaying passengers. not anything we look forward to. >> thanks. ms. bristol, there's some criticism of the controller workforce plan staffing ranges as unreliable. can you just enlighten me a

little bit when we talk about shortage, from your perspective, what's the baseline we're supposed to use? and in fairness i'm going to ask mr. rinaldi to comment on that same question as well. what's the baseline? >> well, you know, right now we've got -- in the entire system 14,376 folks that are with working their way through the process from the early levels through the top. we'restriving right now to get everyone to our certified professional controllers in a range that's in the 80% to 85% rate which we would feel is more healt healthy. so we're focused in facility that's are above that on helping them if they desire to go to a facility that's below that level help them get there more quickly so that we can start getting everybody up to that range. >> mr. rinaldi, how should we

assess this? >> so i would just say that the most accurate assessment of each facility is your onboard staffing of your fully certified professional controllers. these are the individuals that can plug in and work any position. these are the individuals that will train the other people in the building that are learning to be air traffic controllers xs these are the individuals that will fill in for supervisory functions and be controllers in charge. these are the individuals we take off the boards to actually help us modernize the system and develop real-time efficiencies in nextgen. that is the goal to actually measure that. what the controller workforce plan, it just is bodies in the building. and all too often they give you a number and it's misleading at best that they say, well, at atlanta trey con we have 95 people on board but really you only have -- and if our cpc number is 100 and you have 95 people on board you would think, well, we're okay. we're only 5 under.

really you only have 68 people that can fully work all the positions and those other people are in some form of training, which their success rate in atlanta is less than 40%. so you're counting people that will never be be successful in the building and it's almost a charade that you're saying, well, we're fully staffed there. the people will never certify there. the number is flawed. if you go strictly by certified professional controllers is the best way to see the healthiness of a building. >> mr. chairman, could i just ask the same question of mr. hampton? >> it's your birthday. whatever you want. >> it's my birthday. great. i've got another 15 minutes worth of questions. one for every birthday. matt, could you talk a little bit -- have you looked at the right number? >> we don't know exactly what the right number is, but let me get you a different perspective. when we visit the field, the facility manager and he runs

that place day to day and he's responsible and he runs multiple shifts, and mr. rinaldi is quite correct. the certified controller is a utility infielder. he trains controllers and can work all segments of the air space. that gives a facility manager tremendous flexibility. i think it's important for the faa to communicate to the congress a specific number, whether it's in -- particularly in the controller work tss force plan. what's the right number at the right facility particularly at the critical facilities? it doesn't really matter, we've looked at this for a number of years so the cpc seems to be a very important number. that's kind of our take on it. it matters to the facility manager, the guy that runs the facility particularly at chicago, atlanta, the most critical facilities. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> mr. rinaldi, at the roundtable we held in december, you outlined some steps that you thought the faa should take to improve the hiring and training

and placement. can you tell us any specific improvements in this area over the last six months? >> so after the roundtable hearing we had in december, the agency actually opened up the continuous bid for a couple of months, which helped get streamlined military controllers into the system and get them directly into the facilities. so that helped. what also helped is we've come to an agreement on what we call an err policy, which is basically a national release policy moving controllers from mid-level and lower level facilities to the higher level facilities where we have the shortage in a very streamlined way so it's not 314 -- but it's actually a very national overlook and making sure that the system is staffed correctly and the facilities are getting the resources they need to do. so these are some steps with

swre taken. hr-5292 will give the agency the ability to continue to hire maximize the academy and hire straight from the military and actually give the ability for the cti students to get right into the academy also and get that rolling. that's why we actually support the passage of hr-5292. >> ms. bristol, i want to commend you and your team for the collaboration with mr mr. rinaldi and nadka seems like that is going to be crucial and essential. but can you explain the difference between the staffing targets your team developed and the recommended staffing ranges included in the faa's annual controller workforce plan? >> the annual controller workforce plan that's put out, it's a very high level, strategic target. and it does give ranges, it gives a high and a low as an indicator of, you know, health,

if you will, in a facility. when we look at managing facilities every day and how we move our controllers through the system and inside the buildings, it was clear that we needed a much more tactical tool, and that is why we worked with nadca to laser in on individual facilities and how wie place an recognize. there's also people moving through the facility at the same time as they become more proficient. so the controller workforce plan i think serves a purpose, but for day-to-day management in the system our organization works with that interim target on how we move and place people in the system. >> mr. hampton or mr. rinaldi, do you care to comment? >> as i said earlier, the controller workforce plan just gives a head count. what we did in our collaborative

resource working group is actually laser in how many cpcs we run the mission. and the mission is running air traffic control, actually getting recurrent training and mandatory briefing items, do an ojti, helping modernization in the system. so we went with the cpc number and ms. bristol is correct of actually what's a good number to actually move somebody through the system. and we came with 85% cpc number. that's why that number seems to be working for us. but if you just look -- if you just went on the controller workforce plan as i said with atlanta but we could do it with chicago also, about 30% of the people in the building that come in as new developmentals become fully certified. controller workforce cpc target is 100. that's the number we came up with collaboratively.

but, you know, they would right now say that we're within range because their range is from 81 to 100. right now there's 83 people there. except for the fact there's only 64 that could actually work position. the others are in some stage of training. but they're counting them as a full body. if you with were going to schedule that person to work a shift, you certainly would not schedule a group of those 20 people that can't work by themselves all alone on a shift. so it's disingenuous to say they're okay, they have 84 people on board. the workforce plan to me, it just gives a false depiction of what's actually going on in a facility. the healthiness of a facility and the staffing of a facility goes right to the cpc number and what accomplishes the mission of moving air traffic control safely throughout our system. >> i think that's encouraging that faa and nadca are working

together, but i think it's important in the future that they clearly communicate to this committee and other committees what number they're measuring particularly at the critical facilities about the health. are with we measuring cpcs or measure the controller work force plan? i think that's an important measurement. i think it's a positive step, but i think going forward what measurement are we using, and that's an important measure for we should measure by. and i do think what mr. rinaldi said the cpc and it's okay to express it in ranges there's a level of precision that's not easy to get here. but i think it's a positive development but i think it's important going forward whether or not we'll see in the next if the next plan they put forward in 2017 will reflect that. but i think it's important to communicate the health of a facility by that measurement in the future. >> thank you. ms. bristol, according to mr. rinaldi, controllers are working mandatory six-day work weeks in atlanta, chicago, dallas/ft. worth and new york and according to your agency controller overtime expenditures

have jumped from 54 million in 2011 to 78 million in 2015. do you share our concern with the pressure being put on controllers, the safety and operational implications of increasing their workloads and how long can this be kept up this way before we have some kind of a breaking point? >> well, thank you, congressman. i think that is one of the priority reasons that we're so focused on moving our experienced controllers into some of our most critically staffing challenge facilities. there's different levels of overtime in every facility. you know, ours can vary. you know, my -- i do not like to see people working more overtime than they need to, and that is why it's a priority for me to ensure that we get bodies as

quickly as possible in and then move bodies to where they really need to be to support the workforce that's already there. >> mr. hampton or mr. rinaldi, do you care to comment? >> overall, overtime nationwide is 2.6%. most facility managers tell you us if it's in the 4% to 6% range it's manageable. however, some of the critical facilities they do exceed 10%. new york trey con almost 15%. dallas tray con 12%. atlanta tray con and chicago tray cons are 11%. so that shows a level of stress at a facility. it's questionable how long that can be sustained. it shows signs of staffing shortages. mr. rinaldi? >> i would agree with the numbers the ig put out. those are accurate, and it does -- it's a -- it does fa teak the workforce if you're working six-day workweeks ten-hour days and maxing out on that. it's a high-stress occupation and it's not something we should

rely on as a normal part of our day-to-day operation. >> thank you. now turn to mr. maloney. >> thank you, mr. chairman. happy birthday to our colleague mr. larsen. proof that the aviation subcommittee really is the secret to staying forever young. mr. rinaldi, i appreciate the kind words on the bipartisan legislation that my colleague mr. cabello and i have introduced to address some of the issues you've been discussing this morning. hr-5292 known as the air traffic control hiring improvement act, you've done a better job in your testimony than i could of outlining some of the merits of the legislation. but i would -- but i'd love to ask you about a couple of issues that are covered by our bipartisan legislation as i'm sure my colleague mr. cabela may as well. and let me also say thank you to

your members at nadca for the extraordinary work they do day in and day out that ensure millions of us who travel every year and every week in many c e cases arrive at our destinations safe and sound. so thank you for that. and thank you for your efforts in advancing my legislation. but let me focus you specifically on the new buy graphical assessment test conducted by faa. could you speak to some of the ways that this test has led to qualified controllers, including veterans being rejected from potential atc positions? i'm not sure people fully understand this issue. >> well, thank you, sir. and thank you for your leadership on hr-52-92. we do really appreciate it. we think it's the right piece of legislation to move forward to help us with the hiring. the buy graphical assessment was established to help cull a list basically of 28,000 applicants,

and it took -- it didn't take into account, regardless of any schooling you would have or any actual on the job function of being an air traffic controller you've been doing for years in the military or years in the faa. and really just put everybody into one pool and i don't know how they graded it. i do know some people that did take the test they were just told that they passed or failed. weren't told what they answered correctly or incorrectly. and it really seemed -- it doesn't seem like a fairness issue like i started to say earlier. i pay for two college tuitions, and i would like to knee if my child can actually do the job before i'm actually paying for the college tuition. especially something as precise and specific as air traffic control. you can't come out of emery riddle with an air traffic control degree and fail a b.q. there's not many other places you can turn to. it's a fairness issue of allowing cti students not to be

lumped in with off the street. same as military that are actually providing day-to-day air traffic control services in the military to actually then put them and treat them and put them into the biographical questionnaire seems silly. >> thank you. if you'd also expound on how it unnecessarily restricts military and department of defense civilian controllers and if that's contributing to the staffing crisis we've heard quite a bit about this morning and we're seeing in places like new york. >> well, to be an air traffic controller in a large tray cons is a very, very hard task. you really can't come out of the academy and make it into one of those busy facilities, the success rate is very, very low. depending on what your job function is in the military, if you're actually a tower

controller, you're probably best suited to go into a tower environment in the faa. if you're a range controller, you're probably best to go into the academy and learn exactly air traffic control in the civilian world. but really what it comes down to for new york tray con, atlanta tray con, dallas, chicago trey con and the other busy tray cons, we need to move controllers through the mid-level facilities and that's what the err process does do. it gives us the ability to place appropriately out of the academy into the lower level facilities where you can develop and hone skills so that you can actually make it into the big leagues. very similar to a farm system, not to simplify it, but what we would do in the major leagues in baseball, a, double-a, triple-a and the majors. >> in the time i have remaining, i'd appreciate it if you'd say a word about how allowing faa to directly notice atc vacancies to

minority serving institutions would help ensure we are promoting a diverse workforce while working on the staffing short ajz. >> we truly believe inform having a very diverse workforce. i think that you get the best workforce if you reach from all areas of our community. but i think that there's a way to do that with hr-5292 because you can hire directly ow of the military, which is very diverse. you can hire from the cti students and you can still do off the street hiring. you can have a three-way track to make sure you're making your mark at the faa academy each time. and you could use the b.q. to cull a list of someone who has no experience. >> thank you very much. >> mr. fairn thaul. >> thank you very much mr. chairman and i'd like to thank witnesses for participating. i hear consistently and believe we have a shortage of air traffic controllers. yet it seems like we're putting

up more and more barriers to entry there. i understand the issue of the cost associated with training someone. is it also a difficulty -- i'll ask mr. cannon this, i guess -- with folks washing out or getting rid of bad apples once they get in or not -- bad apples probably isn't the right term. but people who are not performing or not able to move up through the farm team mr. rinaldi talked about. >> i'll speak first to the academy. then i think my colleague can speak more to once we get to the facility. anyone going to the academy is on a temporary appointment. if they're not successful at the academy both in classroom, indoor behavior or conduct, they can be gotten rid of very, very quickly and there are some that go that way. >> all right. go ahead, ma'am. >> i would love to see every trainee be 100% successful and

move through the academy and out into our facilities and again have that kind of a trajectory. so i think overall, you know, we have -- it's a graduated process that we're working with our students at the academy and once they move into our facilities, again, we've got -- >> how difficult is it to get rid of someone that isn't performing once you've hired them? there a probation period? after that -- >> i don't think it's -- i mean, if you wanted to -- how hard is it? no, i don't think it's hard to get rid of someone. >> then what's -- why then do we put these big barriers to entry and tests and all? if somebody is able to perform through the academy and you're able to get rid of them, why do we have these huge barriers to entry at the very beginning? especially for people who have already worked in the military or in contract towers and have

some experience? it seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot meeting your hiring goals. >> will well well, sir, i take your point. we certainly have not sought to put up barriers. we did after the 2014 announcement look back at the initial process we put in place. it was always called the interim process. that's why we pulled the track two out. we did say, let's not have people who already have experience have to go through a biographical assessment. and those people when hired can go directly to the facility. so we have incrementally tried to improve what we started since 2014, and i think we have made some improvements there. >> all right, thank you. i'm going to -- mr. babbitt, you came out of the faa. you've worked in industry now. let's assume president obama or whoever the next president is reappoints you there. how do you fix this problem?

>> well, once we got past no -- >> i don't blame you. i wouldn't want to move out of texas either. >> i appreciate the question. we were faced with a very similar situation in '09. we had a massive retirement, clearly had to ramp up and address the problem with increased training and broader network, a more focus on the cti programs and so forth. i think today that one of the things when i look back in defense of the faa would be, you know, stable funding. do we know what we're going to do? do we know precisely what our needs are? you can work the problem backwar backwards. it's not high math. >> that's an interesting question. let me go back over to our folks from the faa. are we not paying these people enough? is that -- it doesn't look like we have a shortage of applicants. are we not paying our air traffic controllers enough? >> no. i think our controllers are very well compensated.

>> all right. so age retirement and tough screening is why we have the -- is what i'm taking way as a general shortage. let me go back to mr. rinaldi. you're a union guy. you've been with the air traffic controller, i'm promoting you to faa administrator. what do you do? >> jump off a bridge. i think hr-5292 is a good start. >> that's us. what do you do at faa administrator under current law? >> well, i would do, you know, under current law i believe the administrator could actually do hr-5292 and start hiring directly out of the military, bypass cti students that have a well qualified or recommendation. they can move forward. but the problem is being the faa administrator, you're governed by lots of lines of bureaucratic pressure and passing hr-52-92 will give him or her, whoever that might be, the ability to do the streamline procedures to

hire enough air traffic controllers. >> or spinning them off into an outside entity. i yield back the remainder of my time. >> we're going to go to ms. johnson next. but just very quickly, mr. cannon, you're hearing a lot about this, but the cti students without any notice, without any ability to grandfather in some cases spends tens of thousands of dollars to go through the system and just the ax fell down and that's it. and it just there's not a good answer for that. ms. johnson? >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. and thanks to all of the witnesses for being here. as you know, the air traffic controller staffing shortages are impacting critical airports all across the united states and especially those in the dallas metroplex that i have to fly out

of on a weekly basis. a good example is the dallas-ft. worth airport has 42 fully certified controllers on staff. and this falls way below the minimum head count target of 48 cpcs established by the controller workforce plan, which is updated by faa on an annual basis. the dallas/ft. worth terminal radar approach control tray con handles all arrivals and departures into and out of dfw, dallas love field and many other smaller airports in the metroplex. at 17,000 feet and below and at a radius of approximately 40 miles from dfw airport. the dfw tray con is also chronically understaffed with only 57 cpcs on staff which is far below the target minimum of

78 cpcs. staffing at the dallas love field is also dangerously close to the established minimum of 19 with only 20 fully certified on staff. even if we consider the cpc targets established by the joint natca and faa working group which mr. rinaldi referred to in his testimony, the dfw tower and dfw tray con both fall far short of the minimum standing targets regardless of the standards used, this is a dangerous precedence which i had mentioned earlier when you were here. my first question is, ms. bristol or mr. hampton, ms. bristol, you said in your testimony discussing support for facility to facility transfers, i believe such transfers can

serve as a quick and viable alternative to finding certified controllers to fill in at facilities with the greatest need. can either of you speak to some of the barriers preventing faa from quickly moving staff from facilities above 90% of the facilities specific target for the cpcs? i've asked this question before, but i still don't have an answer. what actions are you taking to overcome these challenges? that's one. retirement eligibility is another serious issue facing traffic controllers. i've had a number of them come to me to ask me to recommend they be extended. most are but quite a few especially those that are noisy are never extended. according to the faa's own estimates, almost one-quarter or 24% of the fully certified controllers nationwide were eligible for retirement as of

september 2015. and even more alarming as mr. hampton's statement that faa does not sufficiently consider facility specific information which trying to anticipate future retirement trends. i'd like to know whether the reason for this is due to the lack of available data or if faa has simply failed to act when facility managers express these concerns. i know i've asked more than one question in this, but i would like an answer to all of them, especially what official steps has faa taken to address any of the two issues that i brought up. >> well, thank you congresswoman. so the national team that my organization is working with natca to place certified professional controllers into other facilities, our teams have met twice now and we've done two

rounds of controllers that we can look to be moving. some are shorter term. some are a little bit shorter t. some are a little longer. we've got two selection that's would go into dallas-fort worth tracon you that you had mentioned. that certainly is a high priority for us is looking to expedite the movement of controllers where we can into the more challenged facilities. as far as the retirement eligibility, sometimes it's difficult. we can estimate when controllers can retire. certainly they have to go to their hr office to actually fill out the paperwork. and they're the only organizations typically that know for sure when. we know that controllers have to retire by the time they're 56. in some cases, especially in our critically challenged facilities, if we have controllers that want to work a little bit longer, they can

grant waivers to do that. and it's not something we do very often. but sometimes we do in those critically staffed places. so again, we're trying to expedite our processes, stay on top of the hiring, and go through the entire process with training. it's something that i'm committed to and i know my colleagues in the faa and macca as well. it's one of our highest priorities. >> those that request to go beyond retirement? >> it's actually pretty low. >> what is it? >> of yo hand, i'd have to get back to you. i don't have that number on the top of my head. >> miss johnson, yes. thank you for the question. on the first question on the transfer, since the round table when you raised the issue, faa and naca have worked very well. we don't have the numbers, but faa has taken action and we'll get back to it and watch very closely on how well the situation is working. given the hiring situation and the questions of how that will work i think that's one of the

most important things in how we are going to address the critical facilities and the staffing and the cpc issue. you raise a very important question on the retirement issue. overall faa's been very accurate on the retirement question, but again, it's critical facilities. and some of the critical facilities like new york trade con, 39%. houston 30%. 34% of their cpcs are eligible to retire. there is very, very careful watching. and when these things happen they can have a very, very dramatic effect on the facility. so that's something that has to watch. and i think it bears an important point that we made in our report working very closely with headquarters with the local facilities. particularly about the 23, 24 critical facilities we've watched over the years. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> mr. davis. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'm very pleased we're holding this hearing today because it's imperative we address this

looming shortage in air traffic controllers before it's too late. and i'm very proud to co-sponsor my friend mr. cubela's bill i'll let him talk in nor detail. hr-5292. it makes a couple common sense changes to the air traffic control hiring process. one provision of that bill that i want to focus on is that i believe will have an immediate impact is it will raise the entry age for experienced controllers, those with a minimum of 52 weeks of experience from 31 to 35 years of age, importantly it will also promote the hiring of veterans and many in minority communities. my question to the panel -- i'm very frustrated by much of what has been discussed today. you look at chicago tra con that i fly in and out of on a regular basis.

the faa -- -- the chicago center as greed upon number with the faa for controller stuff is i believe 321. as of today there are 297 controllers at chicago center and it's projected by 2018 that number will be under 250. i think the implications of the controller shortage can have a tremendous impact on safety. and overall here to make sure passengers get from point a to point b safely and come back. my question to the panel, and i'll start with you, mr. menaldi, is if another act of sabotage of what we saw in chicago were to take place in the future would there be enough resources and manpower left to keep air traffic moving and return the system to full capacity as soon as the repairs are made? >> well, thank you, sir. i certainly hope we never experience what we did in chicago september of 2014. we are down in our staffing numbers since 2014. and it would be a challenge to accomplish what we did back

then. >> so in your opinion, basically, much of the air traffic control system, if we were to see another act of sabotage like this one would be much more difficult with the staffing levels we have now to do what you did. >> we worked very collaboratively with a lot of facilities, and most of our facilities throughout the country. we're at a 27-year low in cpcs. most of our facilities across the country are very short with certified professional controllers. so it would be a challenge to continue to keep the capacity that we did. >> well, thank you. and thanks to all your members who are getting traffic back to as normal as it can be. a common theme in today's hearing is that controller staffing problems, they appear to be chronic. the faa's missed its controller hiring targets in each of the last six years. controller staffing has fallen nearly 10% since 2011. the faa's bureaucratic structure

is clearly failing us. in february the committee passed the aviation innovation reform and reauthorization act of 2016, which would separate atc functions from the faa and establish an independent not for profit entity to provide air traffic control services including the staffing, placement and training of controllers. i'd like mr. hampton, mr. rinaldi, and mr. babbitt to respond simply yes or no if they believe we would face these long-standing controller hiring and staffing problems if atc services were provided by an independent non-government entity. mr. hampton. >> yes. >> mr. rinaldi. >> no. >> mr. babbitt. >> no. >> all right. thank you. i yield back the balance of my time. >> mr. carson. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'd like to hear from everyone, what are your views regarding the additional physical

barricade outside of the cockpit? i've heard proponents point out that this measure could be effective and not especially expensive. but we've also heard objections, as you know. i'm planning to offer an amendment to add a secondary barrier to all u.s. passenger carriers manufactured going forward. what do you guys think of this idea or concept? >> sir, my colleagues in aviation safety would probably be more up to speed and involved in that kind of a matter. i would have to defer to them. since they're the experts and certainly have them circle back with you and your team. >> thank you. >> thank you for the question. we're working on assignment related to cockpit security and safety. we'd be more than happy to brief

you after it another time in the subcommittee in a less open forum about that if you'd prefer. that would be better. i'd feel more comfortable with that, sir. is that okay? >> thank you. thank you. secondly, how does the explosion of drones into our national airspace factor into air traffic control staffing and management? some have suggested the possible use of geofencing or even other techniques to keep airport approaches and takeoffs safe and unimpended by amateur drone officers, to keep them out of our airspace. but what is the safety plan to avoid drone accidents that could easily hurt people on the ground or even interfere with other operations? and won't air traffic controllers be needed to keep drone operations safe? how do you guys see this being factored into our proposal today? >> our workforce has been

dealing with drones for quite some time. we work closely with d.o.d., dhs, other organizations with large vehicles. the agency expects to pass a small rule into the future and we will work in a very graduated manner on how we roll those folks into the national airspace system. we're working closely with naca on this matter as well. i want to ensure that my workforce is trained, that they have the proper resources. so we have a lot of activity in this area. i would say that we'll move in a graduated manner and make sure we have a very safe system, as we do today. thank you. >> we specifically made a recommendation to faa last year that controllers needed better training and information on specifically dealing with unmanned aircraft. and faa's taking steps to address our recommendation, and they're going to get back to us earlier sometime in september. it's an excellent point and it will impact the controller

workforce. i think mr. rinaldi would agree with that. >> yes. integrating unmanned vehicles into our system is a big challenge. obviously controllers are going to need to identify and see them on the radar. they're going to need to know exactly what their mission is and where they're going and route of flight in order to continue to vector and keep airplanes separated from them so there is not a safety issue. >> from commercial airline operation it's a pretty serious issue for us as well. you've seen what a 2 1/2-pound goose can do to an engine. you can imagine what a 50-pound drone can do to an aircraft. i think the bigger -- well, the technology we're going to have to refine, it's one thing to track and be aware of the unmanned aerial vehicle. but having it be controlled and responsive in the air space is going