"q&a." announcer: professor carol emberton teaches about the confederate prison where 13,000 union soldiers died and the post-war trial of its commappeder henry wirz. she also discusses the halt of the prisoner exchange program toward the end of the war and how the worst trial was used as a precedent for later war crimes proceedings. the class is about an hour. >> we're going to be talking about henry wirz, the commandant of the most notorious prisoner of war camps in the heft of modern warfare. it was a confederate prison for union soldiers in the southwest of georgia. and we're going to be talking about hanging henry wirz. wirz was executed for his role

in perpetuating, according to the federal government, mistreatment and murder. at that camp. and he was one of the first individuals in the modern era to be tried for war crimes. and henry wirz' trial in the fall of 1865 actually set the precedent for more recent war crimes trials. most notably the nuremberg trials of nazi perpetrators after world war ii, the american or the allied prosecutors who were preparing for those prosecutions in nuremberg thrir studied the wirz trial and particularly his defense. so that they could prepare for what they anticipated the nazi defense would be. and actually called it the wirz defense. which was basically, you know, i was only following orders.

that's the typical defense. and they use henry wirz' trial to help prepare for that in 1945. so this is a really important moment. not only in american legal history but also in world legal history. and we're going to be thinking about the prirsen at andersonville itself and what led conditions there to be so horrible. and what led to the, you know, catastrophic loss of life that was suffered there in 1864. we'll also think about if andersonville differed considerably from other p.o.w. camps. it wasn't the only p.o.w. camp by a long shot. and they were all pretty horrible in the civil war. but we'll think about what if anything made andersonville different. and finally, we want to think about whether or not henry wirz was in fact guilty of war crimes and did he deserve the punishment he received?

did he deserve to die for his role in the events in 1864 at andersonville? our terms and concepts for today, henry wirz, anderssonville prison and the prisoner exchange. and we'll be revisiting a topic we've talked about several times throughout the semester and that is the lieber code. ok. so who was henry wirz? he was a native of switzerland. who emigrated to the united states. actually no one's entirely sure when. it's possible he could have been what was known as -- at the time as a 48er. sort of a refugee from the democratic revolutions of western europe that occurred around 1848. there were a lot of refugees after those revolutions were over. so it's possible henry wirz could have emigrated around that time. we really don't know much about

his life prior to his arrival in the united states. he never spoke publicly about his life. the consul general of switzerland who wrote a letter to president andrew johnson on his behalf when wirz was on trial for war crimes, wrote that he didn't give a lot of detail, either. but he did say that wirz came from a very good background and had parents and came from a very respectable family. but we really don't know a lot about him. and he never spoke publicly about his life in europe. once he arrived in the united states, he marries a fairly wealthy widow from kentucky. and he settles in kentucky for a while before eventually moving to louisiana. and once in louisiana, wirz sets up a medical practice. now, he -- there's no evidence that he ever received any kind of medical training. although he did say that he had always wanted to be a doctor. but his father had pushed him

into the -- into business. he didn't want him to be a physician. so once he's in louisiana, wirz sets up a medical practice. which as you know from our previous discussions, about medicine in the 19th century and during the civil war that really wasn't uncommon. that was theway things were done in the 19th century. you would -- aprn 'tis with a practicing physician and then eventually kind of go out on your own. there were medical colleges where you could get degrees. but at that time, it wasn't required that you have formal medical training to practice as a physician. it was more of an aprn 'tisship kind of thing. that's what henry wirz did. so in the years leading up to the civil war, wirz is a country doctor. in rural louisiana. nd when the war breaks out, in 1861, like most patriotic enlists en, dr. wirz with the confederate forces and served with distension through

1862. he's actually wounded at the battle of seven pines in may of 1862. and is wounded severely in his right arm and actually loses all use of his right arm. he's cited for bravery. and he is promoted to the rank of captain. after he recovered from his wounds, he -- because he speaks fluent french and german, as well as english, he is sent on some special diplomatic commissions by the confederacy to europe trying to get those european nations to come and support the confederacy and come out on the side of the south. so he spends most of 1863 in europe -- not doing what -- what he's visiting or what he's doing but on a diplomatic tour for the confederacy. and when he returns to the south, in early 1864, in spring of 1864, he is given the job of

being the commandant or the administrator of this new prison camp that's being built in southwest georgia which becomes known as -- infamously as andersonville prison. and at the time, wirz probably would think that this is a pretty good way to sit out the rest of the war. he's not going to be in battle. his life is not going to be at risk. this is a pretty good job for someone who's seriously -- he can't use his arm anymore. so he's impaired. he'll get to live with his family. his wife and children will be able to live nearby the camp. so all in all, this isn't a bad post. right? but he doesn't really know the situation that's going to be facing him once he arrives in southwest georgia. at what is officially known as camp sumter. and camp sumter is near the nearest town -- the railroad depot of andersonville. so it becomes known as andersonville prison.

so camp sumter was built in early 1864. and i use the term built very loosely. because as you can see, from this picture, sort of, there's not a lot of building in camp sumter. most of the men you can see here, the prisoners are living in tents, in kind of makeshift accommodations. it was originally intended to house about at maximum 10,000 prisoners of war. that was the maximum capacity that this prison could hold. it was about 27 achers the main confine. you can see here from this drawing it was bounded by a very high stock aid -- stock cade fence that goes all the way around the perimeter. there's a creek that's called the sweet water creek that actually runs here under this

stockade through the middle of the camp. so there is a fresh water supply for the men there. but as you can imagine, the further in the creek flows into the camp, the worse the quality of the water gets. so that this is -- this part right up here, that flows right under closest to the stockade fence is the most sought after water in the camp. and that's going to become important for a story i'm going to tell you in just a minute. so -- and on top of the fences, you can see -- point out to you so you can see them a little bit in this picture, on the top of the stockade spaced out periodically are what was known as a pigeon roost which were the guard towers. where the guards sat with their rifles. guarding the prisoners. and as you can tell, there are many more prisoners than there are guards.

right? so that's why they're spaved out like they are on top of the fence. this running along the bottom of the -- and near the edge of the stockade this is the latrine also known as the sink which you can see is just sort of a akeshift long trough toilet and you can actually see some individuals using the toilet there that stretches sort of the length of one side of the stockade fence. and another thing i want to point out to you about the camp that you notice in this photograph right here you can see a long -- sort of low railing. it's a piece of wood. that is stretching sort of the length here in front of the sink. let's see. if we go back, you can also get a sense of it here. and there's a space between this low railing and the stockade and you see this space all along the edge of the fence.

that's devoid of people. because the railing is keeping them back. and that you can see it here as well was what was known as the deadline. because if a prisoner stepped over or crossed the deadline, they were liable to be shot by one of the guards in the pigeon roost. and the deadline was there as a way to keep the prisoners back, to keep them from rushing toward the fence. climbing the fence or starting any kind of mutiny or move to overthrow the guards. and the guards according to witnesses and survivors of andersonville did in fact smoot men when they attempted to cross the dead line andness an illustration from one survivor's testimony who claimed that they witnessed a union soldier who was trying to reach over the dead line with his cup.

and to get some of that fresher water if you recall. some of that water that's just flowing into the camp. he's trying to reach over the dead line to dip his cup in the fresher water and he's shot. r reaching over the dead line. as you can imagine this is not a pleasant place to be, right? from about april of 1864 through its -- the peak time in which the camp had its -- the most inmates from april 1864 until october of 1864, the camp which originally was meant to house about 10,000 p.o.w.'s through that time, has anywhere between 20,000 and 40,000 p.o.w.'s during that time. the peak month was august of 1864.

so it's incredibly overcrowded. however, as had i historians are point -- as his torrance pointed -- had i historians pointed out in august of 1864 it had 30,000 and 40,000 prisoners in it but other times during the 14-month existence of this camp. and that's really all it existed. 14 months. it probably has less than the appointed 10,000 p.o.w.'s that it was supposed to have in the first place. so there's a lot of movement in and out of the camp. prisoners are being transferred from other confederate prisons. they're being transferred to other confederate prisons. and of course men are dying all the time. these conditions, particularly the overcrowding, the putrid water which is breeding not only disease but also mosquitoes, men are suffering

from pneumonia and scurvey and malnutrition and exposure. southwest georgia is incredibly hot in the summer. also pretty cold in the winter and they have very little of any kind of adequate shelter. mid -- s peak, by the y the early fall, of 1864, 5,000 men died between august and october 1864. i believe. all in total nearly 13,000 union soldiers died in andersonville in its entire existence. that's a death rate of about 45%. of the total population. xtremely high. let's see.

there's the national cemetery which now exists at anderson ville. if you're ever in the vicinity you can go there and visit. most of the soldiers who are buried there have been identified, positively identified. but several hundred remain unknown. there at the cemetery. other notorious facet of andersonville prison were the andersonville raiders. now, these were gangs of inmates, of union soldiers, who were armed with clubs and knives and various other kind of makeshift implements and they terrorized the other inmates in the camp. they robbed people. of their rations. of their personal property. and they were also reported to have beaten and killed inmates in the attempts to rob them. things get so bad with the raiders that a group of -- another group of inmates

organized themselves into kind of police force. they called themselves the regulators. and ultimately end up capturing several dozen of the raiders. and they have an actual trial. they put six of the leaders on trial. and as you can see here, from this drawing, they end up with the permission of the camp superintendent, henry wirz, as well as some higher up, some of wirz's superiors in the confederate government, they get permission to hold this trial and they ultimately execute -- they hang six of these ringleaders of these raiders. and this becomes one of the most notorious moments in andersonville's history. and it gives you some indication of what a sort of state of nature these men are living in within the camp. not only are they suffering from disease and malnutrition

and mistreatment from the confederate authorities there, they're also at risk from each other. and from people who would take advantage of the situation to try to better their own situation to get more food or to get other kinds of property off the less fortunate. so it really was a horrible place. now, one other thing, if you have done much reading or you've heard much about andersonville, some people will often say that andersonville was no worse than any other prisoner of war camp, in particular some of the most notorious p.o.w. camps in the north, el mira prison, which is not too far from here, anybody from near the el mira area? so there was a large prisoner of war camp at el mira and also another very large one we'll talk about in a minute outside of chicago, ok? and sometimes people will say

you know what? andersonville was no worse than these other prisons. i kind of take issue with that. and here's a picture of the evening roll call at el mira priss non1864 and from looking at this image you can tell why. there was a significant difference. in my mind between the conditions at andersonville, right.back and look, and what you see at el mira. number one, there's a lot more built structures or barracks for the prisoners to stay in. now, el mira suffers from the same kind of overcrowding which i'm going to explain and why that is in just a few minutes, that andersonville does. there are far more prisoners in el mira than they could actually properly house. so you can see in the back they set up tents and a lot of the men do in fact live in tents. rather than actual housing.

but to me, this image looks nothing like the images that you see from andersonville. which is not to say that elmira was a great place to be. no prisoner of war camp is a great place to be. in any war, right? not intended to be. and who wants to spend, you know, a winter in upstate new york sleeping out in a tent? right? none of us. we've all experienced. it's not fun. it's brutally cold. and the death rate at elmira hich was known by the nickname hellmira by the men who were imprisoned there, the death rate at elmira hovered around 25%. compared to the 45% at andersonville which is still -- i'm not trying to diminish it. but it's still incredibly high. all total, about 3,000 confederate soldiers who were

imprisoned at elmira died there. so there are about 12,000 total. and they suffered largely from the same kind of ailments that the union soldiers at andersonville did. they suffered from malnutrition. they didn't have enough food. they suffered from exposure. pneumonia. outbreaks of various kinds of diseases like influenza and smallpox. dyssentery and also a problem with drainage and putrid water standing within the camp that bred sickness and disease. so really, you know, we might think of the differences between elmira and andersonville not really in terms of kind but of scale, right? the scale of a sickness, and overcrowding, at elmira simply not to the scale that we see at

andersonville. there is now a national cemetery at elmira as well. and there is a monument there to the confederate soldiers who ied. camp douglas was in chicago. and it was initially used as a training camp as was elmira. initially as well. but, you know, fairly early on, camp douglas becomes one of the first union p.o.w. camps for confederate prisoners as early as 1862. they're housing confederate prisoners there. far more lmira, soldiers in 1864 than the camp can reasonably accommodate. and they suffer from the same kinds of problems, malnutrition, exposure. the death rate at camp douglas

is somewhere between had i historians estimate -- there's some discrepancy with how many soldiers -- confederate soldiers died there. this is a mass grave in the nearby oakwood cemetery in chicago where according to the monument, there are 6,000 confederate soldiers buried under this mound. but camp records only list about 4,000. so there are about 1,500 to 2,000 sort of unaccounted for people. so somewhere between 4,000 and 6,000 confederate soldiers died at camp douglas. and again, from the same kinds of conditions that soldiers died of at elmira and at andersonville. chicago, it's incredibly cold

in the winter. i spent 13 years in chicago, in college and graduate school and i would not want to sleep in a tent on the lakes of -- lakeshore of lake michigan. would not be fun. so these camps, none of them are anyplace anyone would want to be. they're brutal. the conditions, the living conditions are bare bones. and a lot of the men who were arriving at these camps are already either wounded or sick. and if you're already wounded and sick, and your immune system is compromised, in kind of exposure and lack of proper food is only going to contribute to your decline. so they're not places where you to go to flourish and be healthy and well and they are in a sense any prisoner of war camp a place where men went to die.

some people who talk about and write about these prisoner of war camps will say that the conditions in places like elmira and camp douglas, the northern p.o.w. camps, were as bad -- were as bad as they were because the union was retaliating against the treatment that their soldiers were receiving in confederate camps like andersonville and libby prison, bell i'll, -- belisle, some of the others. and there are some kind of loose anecdotal evidence to suggest that the men who are running these camps are certainly not inclined to be particularly energetic or speedy in providing the confederate p.o.w.'s there with the kinds of things that they need. so, for instance, there was one superintendent of camp douglas

who it appears replaced all the wood burning stoves in the barracks with boilers that didn't produce according to the men who lived there enough heat or as much heat as the wood-burning stoves did. and they also tended not to cook the food as well. and so some people will say, well, he did that on purpose. right? because union soldiers were suffering from the cold. and deprivation and so they were trying to sort of pay back the confederate p.o.w.'s for that. there's really not a lot of hard evidence to suggest that there was a -- you know, a concerted union policy to say, you know what? our men are suffering at andersonville. so we're going to make it just as bad for these confederate soldiers in these camps. but the fact of the matter is again, it's not a different so much in kind but in scale.

and if we remember, if we go back to the lieber code which we looked at several weeks ago one of the articles of the lieber code which is the codified rules of warfare, allowed for prisoners of war to be subject to the infliction of retaliatory measures. now, specifically, francis lieber is talking and writing about lincoln's retaliatory order that he issued in 1863 if you recall when the confederate government said any black soldier or white commander of black troops who are caught will not be given quarter, right? they will not be treated as prisoners of war. they will be subject either to be sold into slavery or executed. when the confederacy releases that order, actually they released it in the fall of 1862

after the preliminary emancipation proclamation, lincoln then issued what's known as his retaliation order in which he says for every black soldier or white officer, that's executed, we will execute one confederate prisoner of war. to my knowledge, that never happened. i could be wrong, i have never seen evidence of that. it is possible, but i don't think it ever occurred. it was a retaliation order. ,t was, according to lieber completely permissible to do that during war. code had express prohibitions against the mistreatment of prisoners of war. this is one of the great areas

in the lieber code that although you are not supposed in the treat prisoners, -- miss liablers, they are still to this kind of retaliatory measure when they happen. another criticism, or christian -- question that people will raise about andersonville is whether or not william sherman, after he captures atlanta and goes on the march to the sea, whether he could have liberated andersonville. why didn't he? this is a map of george appeared the store -- this is a map of georgia.

wherear represents andersonville prison was located. ofyou recall, in september 1864, atlanta falls to sherman army. ,etween september and november he is planning his march to the sea it will take them to savannah. directiont going the of sumter. could he have done so? certainly he knew about andersonville, prisoners have escaped from there. they knew things were back there. bad there.were however, i think it is an assumption the thing that he could have done anything, simply because of the timeline. by the time atlanta falls and

sherman against his march in by that time the vast majority of men who died in andersonville have already died. time that sherman does begin his march out of atlanta towards sabrina -- savannah, the population of the prison has fallen to about 1500 men. once the city of atlanta falls, confederate officials, because andersonville is relatively close, they begin moving a lot of the prisoners out to other reason camps. transport them to the carolinas. they do not want them to be liberated. a lot of the men have already died. it would only have been about 1500 men left at andersonville

at that time. sherman knew this. he realizes this. so he does not really consider the possibility of veering off his course or sending his men this way. march,ed about sherman's he is very focused on what is ahead of him and getting to the sea, and ultimately bringing the war to an end. so the idea that sherman could have averted the horrors of andersonville or alleviated union suffering their, i don't think that because of the timeline, it would've made much of a difference at that point. were these prisons, not only andersonville, but the only soother ones, why were they crowded?

that is the key to understanding why the conditions were so bad at andersonville. collapseto do with the of the prisoner exchange system. when the war began, it is convention to have a prisoner exchange, particularly among officers but also for larger groups of enlisted men. was would often happen, it an informal exchange. guys, wea group of our have a group of your guys. they were not supposed to go back into the armies, but they did. they would simply exchange the men. it was very taxing on an army's resources to try and take care of a lot of prisoners. in means you're taking men out of your fighting force to work as guards and police.

it is not ideal to have large amounts of pows. train -- to trade them. that was until the army started enlisting black soldiers. -- confederacy excuses refuses to exchange any captured black soldiers. because they refuse to exchange black soldiers, president lincoln brings the prisoner exchange to a halt. he issues a command to his officers that they are not to exchange any prisoners so long as the confederacy refuses to exchange african-american prisoners. and so this happens. the collapse of the prisoner exchange before the -- ulysses s. grant becomes the commander.

a lot of critics of grant will use this quotation of his and needlessly allowed these men to suffer and die in andersonville. exchange was not his policy, it was the president's policy. he approached robert e lee several times as the population of prisoners were growing, and he approaches them about the reinstatement of the exchange. let us reinstate the prisoner exchange. when you exchange black prisoners? and lee responded that he did not have the authority to exchange black prisoners, because the confederate authority refused. that as long as the confederacy refused to exchange black prisoners, they

could not participate. a lot of men were staying in these hundred conditions in terribleille -- these conditions in andersonville, they do not care. they are dying. but both grant and lincoln agree. they have asked african-american men to fight and die on behalf of the country up until that point had not given them much reason to do so. thousand african men by the years -- wars and will have fought. they cannot simply say, ok, we will only exchange white soldiers and you can keep like captives. it is morally wrong. --is terrible for more our morale.

expect other african-americans to come and fight? it is a sticking point morally for both lincoln and grant, and they refuse to exchange any prisoners if the confederacy will not exchange black prisoners, as well. here.nt is right menaid it is hard on our being southern prisoners, but when we start releasing confederate prisoners, they will simply go back into the ranks and pick up guns and start fighting again. but for grant, it is not simply a matter of trying to outlast the confederate supply of manpower. it is more complicated than that. there is a serious moral imperative at stake for both grant and lincoln regarding the exchange of black soldiers along

with white ones. the class of the prisoner exchange is important for us to understand why the population of the prisons grew so astronomically. why conditions get so out of hand. it is not a simple case of oh, the government let this happen. but lincoln and grant felt they were not in a position to do otherwise. it was a complicated issue. never expected to be on trial for work -- war crimes. he was the first person to be charged with this in the modern era. another piece of evidence that suggests he did not imagine he

would be held accountable or prosecuted for what happened at andersonville is that when the war is over, he just goes to his house next to the prison and he stays there and he waits for the union soldiers to arrive and liberate the camp. he does not expect they will hold him accountable, but he is .rrested in may of 1865 he's taken the washington, d.c. in the fall of that year, beginning in august, he is put on trial. it is important to note that this trial is not a civilian trial. like the trial of the lincoln conspirators that i talked about the other day, the trial is conducted by a military tribunal. that was controversial at the time. a lot of people thought that both the lincoln conspirators and wirz should've been tried by

a civilian court, but the army and federal government thought, even the piece has technically been declared, the war is technically over at this time, this is still part of the war itself. hold -- they saw with the lincoln conspirators had done as an extension of the confederate war effort, and likewise they were holding wirz to trial for his wartime actions. that is how they justify a military tribunal. tried by a military commission. the government hopes to prove, what they are trying to do is not just hold him accountable -- people are really up in arms

about andersonville and how many men died there. they want to hold someone accountable. but they also intend to lay the groundwork for future trials, they hope come of higher ranking confederate leaders. men like president jefferson davis, and perhaps even general robert e lee. they believe, and they want to prove that there was a broader conspiracy. among the higher officials to soldiers of life, and to act viciously against them. that is what they're having to do this -- hoping to do at this trial with wirz. is charge not simply

with being incompetent as superintendent. he is actually charged with maliciously knowing of all of the mistreatment and abuse going .n, allowing it to happen but in at least 13 cases, he is charged with committing murders by his own hand. so he is charged with 13 counts of murder that he committed personally. he was charged with shooting with his revolver, prisoners. he was charged with at least one count of stomping a prisoner to death. he was also charged with mauling dogs tomball -- to prisoners who would attempt to escape. he is charged with giving orders to the guards to shoot men.

at the trial, there was not a lot in the way of a direct eyewitness testimony that wirz had done any of the things. most of the evidence amounted to hearsay. someone told me that they heard someone say that wirz had shot someone. there was not a lot of in the way of direct testimony. this is the key difference between a military tribunal in a civilian court. in a civilian court, hearsay is not admissible. in a military tribunal, the level of proof to one must than --is much looser is much less stringent than a civilian court. who were the time advocating for him said, this is not right. this military tribunal, it would

be easy to railroad someone if that is what you had in mind. it would be much easier to do that than in the civilian case. said the same thing about a military commission earlier that year. it was a controversial move to try him before military tribunal. commission saw photographic areence exists, and these actual photographs taken of andersonville survivors. when presented with this type of photographic evidence, that is very hard to deny. the men who survived andersonville, they left looking like this. they are skeletons. there severely am a seated. many of those who were liberated in the spring of 1865 to not live.

this is powerful evidence against henry wirz. how can he explain this? prosecutors would point to the lieber code, which you party study. -- they .2 articles wherepart -- .2 articles prisoners are supposed to be treated. they're not supposed to be starved, they are not supposed to be mutilated. they're supposed to be given medical treatment. was ae fact that wirz physician, he worked as a doctor before the war, several people pointed out that he should have known that these men were so ill . he should have done more to provide them with care, with medicine.

for his part, what kind of defense can you put on this? of the charges that he had by his own hand murdered prisoners, he flat out tonight. , i did not do that. i did not kill anyone. conditions at the prison, he said, i did the best with what i had. the camp was horribly overcrowded because the prisoner exchange had collapsed. the confederacy, they did not their own to feed soldiers. how was i supposed to take care of these inmates when i had nothing to feed them with? i would have sent them if i had something to feed them with. i would've given the medicine if i had medicine to give them. i have nothing to work with.

the confederacy by this time was collapsing. it was on its last leg. he said, what could i do? i could only work with what i had. i told my superiors in richmond that i needed help, but they said there was no help, so what could i do? i was given a job, this was my job. i was doing the best i could. i was following orders. but that was not good enough. the military commission found 10,guilty and on november 1865, he was executed in the same prison yard that mary surratt and the lincoln conspirators were executed the previous july. this is a picture just moments after he drops through the scaffold. is buried in the same

cemetery as mary surratt in washington, d.c. you can see here, they have put a small marker on his grave, confederate hero, martyr. remember henrye wirz? should we think of him as a martyr? i am confused by that, because a martyr to what? there supposed to be a bigger cause that your martyred for? but i will admit, it is difficult for me to think of him intentionally has inflicted cruelty and suffering on those men at andersonville.

i think the evidence against him that he actually kill people is pretty sketchy. i don't do it hold up in a civilian court of law -- i do not think it would hold up in a civilian court of law. should we hold him responsible in some way for those terrible conditions and for the 45% death rate or the 12,000 men, nearly 13,000 men who perished at andersonville? what was his responsibility for that? who was ultimately responsible? , you're reading for today was an account of andersonville by her survivor. it was his diary that he kept while there. think that stands out about the account is that

wirz does not appear very often. -- he doest a lot of not see wirz a lot. it of the things wirz said is defense was that a lot of the time he was sick himself and confined to his house. he was not out wondering -- prisoners,nd killing he was not even out a lot. diary, he has much harsher criticism for men like ,efferson davis, who he says the confederate government did not do its job. the conditions are so bad because jefferson davis is in richmond and does not care. quandary.a

it is a problematic question that comes out of the civil war and it is one that is really applicable to warfare in general , not just the civil war. thatplies to one before and ones that are going on today, as well. either any questions about henry wirz in andersonville? who made the decision to try somebody by military tribunal and set of civilian court? the reason that decision was made at the time was because the events have happened during the war, and wirz had been acting as an emissary or a person of the confederate army and these were war of his work duties --

duties, so the army decided it was a wartime issue and could be decided by a military commission by -- instead of a civilian court. any other questions? do you know if wirz ever asked the confederate government for help? prof. emberton: yes he did. there are letters that he sent to superiors and said, i need food, i need medicine, and they did say we do not have any. there's evidence that he did try to get some assistance, and there was no assistance forthcoming. largely, he was right. haveonfederacy did not

food and medicine for their own troops at that time. mind, thatt, in my is a legitimate argument that he made. that is not simply him trying to get out of responsibility. it is one of those cases in which you stop and think, what could he have done? what what i have done in that situation? at the end of the day, it could be that henry wirz is one of --se pitiful figures had that have issue been on the other foot and the confederacy think, with the superintendent of camp douglass or al myra have been -- elmira has been held accountable the way wirz was?

winners determine history. any other questions? was there an attempt to hold anyone else accountable? prof. emberton: four andersonville, no. the initially helped -- hoped prowl be the first of several. they hope to bring in the high-ranking confederate .fficials for treason jefferson davis was indicted and held on the indictment for nearly two years before he was finally released. because government prosecutors really cannot come to a consensus about whether or not he is guilty of treason, and if they could get a conviction for him for that.

no. wirz is really the only confederate official who was held accountable for really forle, but .hat happened from 1861 1865 it was an ongoing question then, what should be done, should the confederate leaders be punished? should they be executed? suddenly there were people and 186i-5 who thought so, but there were many others who thought no. they cut the best way to move forward and bring the country back together was to avoid that kind of vengeance, some would and or dramatic punishments try to move forward. we're going to start talking about reconstruction next. legalwere some limitations or punishments for x

federates,e --ex-con and many people argue that they were not harsh enough. >> [indiscernible] prof. emberton: so yes. 's trial, as i mentioned earlier, becomes something of a precedent for what happens at nuremberg and other war crimes trials. prosecutors when they prepare for nuremberg, they try to find where this happened before. this was the main kasich and studied -- this

was the main case they could find, and so they studied this. studied -- this was thehow do you prepare for te defense that i was not personally responsible, i was only following orders, which was the mainline defense of the nazi officials at number -- nuremberg. so wirz was an important case in setting the president on how to prosecute these cases later in the point century. have legal representation? prof. emberton: he had a couple of different lawyers, they were private lawyers who represented him. i cannot think of their names off the top of my head, but they did have legal representation and he was entitled to that. you are still entitled to that with a military commission. clergyman andme

other people who came out and supported him, some other folks at the time who would been prominent in anti-capital punishment in anti-death penalty movements. they said he should be imprisoned and not executed, this is far too great a punishment for him. .ut in the end, you know andrew johnson could have pardoned him, but he chose not to do that in large part because of public outcry against what had happened at andersonville. it was so great that, i'm sure was -- johnsont thought it was politically expedient. we also have not talked about the fact that wirz was foreign-born.

he was swiss. you have to wonder what role foundlayed in him being guilty, as well. accountable or being held up as an example. didn't matter that he was foreign-born and not american? did that make a difference? who is to say? very much.uys i will see friday. >> join us every saturday evening at 8:00 p.m. and midnight eastern as we join students in college classrooms to hear lectures on topics ranging from the american revolution to 9/11. "lectures in history" are also available as podcasts. >> c-span makes it easy for you

to keep up with all of the latest convention developments ,ith the c-span radio app available from the apple app store or google play. get schedule information about important speeches and defense. get c-span on the go with the c-span radio app. up next, we hear about the director emeritus of the smithsonian museum of american history. he explains the thinking behind his selection process. it is about one hour.