i don't know of any more appropriate place to put those pictures. >> for a complete american history tv schedule go to c-span.org. sunday night to q & a, civil war historian and virginia tech professor james robertson discusses his book "after the civil war." the heroes, soldiers, civilians and villains who changed america. >> i think one has to keep that in mind. i'm not belittling slavery. it's without question the major cause of the civil war. but you can explain the action of good decent men, they fight because virginia needs them, not that they supported the clause, neither one did.

>> sunday night on c-span's q & a. now, the contenders, our series of key figure who is ran for president and lost but who changed political history. tonight we feature eugene debs, a five-time presidential candidate for the socialist party. this was recorded at his home and museum in terre haute, indiana. >> our featured contender is eugene v. debs. at the turn of the 20th century, a five-time candidate for president on the socialist ticket and the nation's most celebrated world war i protester. this december 1921 footage captures debs on his return to his hometown of terre haute, indiana, following his release from prison by president warren harding after a federal conviction stemming from those war protests. tonight we are in terre haute in the debs home and museum.

let me introduce you to one of our two guests, ernest freeberg, a debs biographer, whose book is called "democracy's prisoner." it has been 85 years since debs died, why do we care about him? >> he was one of the most important labor leaders at a crucial time of conflict between labor and capital. more importantly, he was the central figure in the socialist movement at a time when it was a viable, growing, and important part of the american political culture. >> is he interesting as a snapshot in time or does he have a lasting legacy? >> like many third-party candidates, he and his fellow socialists managed to move the conversation in important directions that have affected the development of american democracy ever since. in that regard, he is of his time, but he's also had a long impact on us as well. >> we will have time to delve into some of the elections more deeply later on.

of the five bids he made for the white house, are any particularly significant? >> two for very different reasons. the 1912 bid represents the high water mark of socialism where he got about 6% of the vote. the more -- or quite different election is 1920 where he was imprisoned in the atlanta penitentiary and got a million votes also while running in prison. >> we will learn more about both of those as our 90-minute program, the contenders, our look at people who made an attempt at the white house and failed but had an effect on political and american history. we are live tonight from the debs house of museum in terre haute, indiana. it's on the campus of indiana state university. eugene v. debs lived in this house with his wife kate. she lived here for years after he died. we'll show you more of the house as we continue here. the top floor of this house is an interesting mural.

the mural throughout the entire top floor depicts the years of debs' public life and throughout our program we will be showing you aspects of that artwork to help illustrate eugene v. debs story. let me introduce you to our second guest joining us from the second floor in what was debs' bedroom. now it is a museum room with a lot of artifacts in it. lisa phillips is a history professor at indiana state university and a specialist in labor history. thank you so much for being with us. your thoughts on debs' significance to the american story. >> like ernest said, i think his significance has to do with his activity in the labor unions, the american railway union, and the socialist party as well. he has had a lasting effect on many of the laws that were passed during the progressive year were as a result of his

activism, some of which we still enjoy, and he certainly can tell us a lot about his time period through his running for president and through all of his labor union activities as well. >> lisa philips will be showing us some of the artifacts from time to time in the house here. she is also part of the debs' foundation. tell me about the work of the debs foundation and why you are involved in it. >> the debs foundation seeks to keep the debs legacy alive and what it hopes to do is promote not only the museum but the policies that debs promoted, which is social justice and equality and the rights of workers generally. so it continues to try to live through the spirit of his mission. >> as we turn to your expertise in understanding this house and what you showcase here, can you tell me a little bit about how this house is financed and functions, who pays for it, and whose care it's under? >> it is paid for by the debs foundation and cared for by dr. charles king and by karen brown,

both of whom are here in terre haute and who run tours of the museum on a daily basis. >> to our viewers, in about ten minutes or so, as we always do with these contenders programs, we are going to open up our phone lines and involve you in the discussion. very interested to hear your questions or comments about eugene v. debs and the turn of the 20th century and that period in american history he represents. let me ask you a little bit about what made him a success at what he did. >> well, many people remember him most of all as a dynamic speaker. this is an era of wonderful stump speakers. who could fill two and three hours with a speech. debs, many said, was really the best in that genre. in fact, so good that he could afford to charge a modest admission for his audience. that's how they funded the socialist campaigns in many cases. he was just a very charismatic and had the ability. i think he began as a stayed, victorian speaker.

as he became more comfortable over the years, he developed a more modern, impromptu style that made a tremendous impact on his audience. >> over your shoulders is debs' library. my understanding is that debs dropped out of school at age 14. i am curious about his extensive library and how he educated himself. >> he was very much self-taught. he worked very hard at that. he began working in the railroad union, very interested in the literature there. he worked for a while as a grocery clerk in town, always wanted to get more education but had to rely on doing it on his own. >> lisa phillips, how did terre haute shape eugene debs? >> in many ways, mostly through his upbringing here when he was a younger man -- a boy and a

young man. he always harkened back to the terre haute of his youth. he thought and invoked it all the time in terms of the harmonious relationships that he said developed in old terre haute between everybody he said could aspire to do something good in their lives, whether you be a business owner, whether you are a worker. but everybody always had a chance, in old terre haute, he always said, and to aspire to improve their lives. that's what he held in the most regard in terms of his upbringing. >> when you walk around the house, you see he was interested in politics from what looked like an early age. he made bid for clerk in the town and made a successful bid for the indiana legislature on the democratic ticket. >> yes. >> his early roots, then, were in two-party system. can you talk about that? >> i can say a little bit, which is to say that he ran on the democratic party ticket when he believed that he could form a relationship between multiple groups of people, whether they

be business owners, workers. he believed in the party system in that regard. it wasn't until later in the 1880s, 1890s, that he felt like the party system through the democrats and republicans weren't working for the best interests of all the people combined. >> when he sought the white house, what was his intention? did he ever really think that he could win? >> he said very clearly that he had no intention of ever winning. lincoln stefans interviewed him in 1908 and said, what would it be like for you to be president? he said that if the party ever gets close to winning, i'd be the last person who would want the job or that they would put into the job. he thought of himself more as an evangelist for the cause. he believed very much in democracy, but i think he was more interested in using the campaigns in order to generate interest among workers to develop class consciousness, to sort of deliver his message very powerfully every four years. >> give us a snapshot of the

america that he was dissatisfied with. >> an enormous concentration of capital. that was the big struggle at the time. many people were worried about the labor problem. many workers felt in the face of this rapid industrialization, that their skills were less valuable, that their wages were being pitted in the national and international market where they were getting declining wages and a more difficult work environment. there was an enormous sense that labor was deeply unhappy. for debs, debs turned it around and said, the problem is not labor. the problem is capital. the real problem here is not that workers are unhappy and going on strike. the root problem is that these enormous concentrations of capital are undermining american democracy. >> socialism was on the rise in europe. how was what the socialists and what debs was trying to do here different from what happens

-- from what was happening there? >> it was similar at first. they considered themselves to be internationalists. essentially, socialism needed to be a worldwide movement and they expected it would be. they felt there were distinctive challenges in america in order to convince workers to do that. there was a stronger sense of the working class in europe on which to draw for socialists organizing there. one of the struggles for debs throughout his career was trying to convince workers that they ought to think of themselves not as democrats or republicans, not on the basis of their religious affiliation but to think of themselves as members of a working class. >> how successful were he and his fellow thinkers in convincing the public at the height of its popularity? how much ground do they make? >> it depends on how you measure that. i think if you measure it by debs' success -- as i said, his high-water mark was 1912, he got

about 6% of the vote. that was in 1912. >> never any electoral college votes, right? >> no. but there was a much broader -- socialists were much more successful at the local level. international socialist society for college students started by jack london. a lot of college campus ferment about socialism. there was a lively press, some of our best journalism from that time period comes out of the socialist press journals like the masses out of greenwich village. socialism was much bigger than counting the votes, i think. >> today in congress, united states senator bernie sanders of vermont is a socialist. we talked to him about debs' legacy. let's listen to a bit of what he had to say. >> a lot of ideas that he advocated talked about when people get old, there should be

social insurance for them. there should be retirement benefits for them. that's what we call social security today. amazingly enough, in the year 2011, there are those same people that hated debs when he was alive that now want to destroy social security. he believed that health care was a right of all people. that battle continues today. i think it is fair to say many of the huge advances made during the '30s under president roosevelt, the great society under lyndon johnson and throughout, those were ideas that people like debs probably brought to the attention, the first person to bring to the attention of millions of working people. >> lisa phillips, let me ask you to add your perspectives to the america that he saw and was dissatisfied with and whether or not he saw himself as anti-american or wanting to change america. >> no, i don't think he saw himself as anti-american at all.

i think he saw himself as advocating through his socialist party and labor activity as a kind of american that was more community centered and less driven by big business. in his early days, he wasn't even anti-capitalist and worked with the railroad companies. it wasn't until the advent of corporate capitalism or big business that he felt as if there had to be a movement against the for-profit motive that continued to bring everyday workers' wages down. >> let me ask you. you have something to add to that? >> i agree with lisa. i think one of the things that made debs so powerful was his ability to cast socialism as an american movement. his argument wasn't, this is a revolutionary country in the first place, fought a revolution for democracy. in his lifetime, he experienced the civil war as a revolution. some of his greatest idols were the abolitionists.

his argument was that the country had fought a battle to overthrow wage labor. >> a question for you. who were his workers? did he include women in his view of it? did he include people other than whites? did he include immigrants? what was his definition, lisa? >> well, as one of the first industrial union leaders, he was mounting a movement on behalf of the working class, which he believed everyone who was a worker, who earned wages, which was two-thirds of americans by 1890, was a part of, whether they be an immigrant, black, whether they be women. he certainly saw them as all members of a working class that needed to be uplifted in some way, shape, or form. there is controversy still to this day among historians about whether he did enough on behalf of women and african-americans. he had some trouble seeing

immigrants, especially chinese and italian immigrants that came over temporarily and worked for very low wages and brought them back to their home countries as part of the same american working class that was driving, trying to fight for higher wages. so he had some trouble over the course of his career reconciling that. certainly, his, as an industrial movement, was one that recognized the rights of all workers, regardless of their backgrounds. >> i understand you have one of the artifacts copies of "the jungle" upton sinclair. what's the significance? >> it's of huge significance. upton sinclair wrote "the jungle" in 1965 and was part of the socialist movement himself. he highlighted the horrible conditions that meat packers worked in chicago. what really riled up the country was not only the conditions of the workers that were working in the meat packing industry but

also the quality of the processed meat that was coming out of the plant. so he was the one that wrote about rats and people's fingers being caught in the processed meat and how horrible that was. so he worked. he and debs were supporters of one another. upton sinclair was able to, like debs, demonstrate the problems with the growing growth of big business. it was upton sinclair's work that led to the creation of the regulation of the food and meat industries, the precursors to the fda. very much of the same mind-set in terms of demonstrating the negative consequences of big business. >> the book actually ends with a scene where he wonders into a socialist meeting and hears a character who is supposed to be using debs and making the socialist speech. for upton sinclair, that was supposed to be not food and drug regulations, although he

supported those but socialism was the bigger answer. debs is actually right in the book. >> would you tell us the story of his first imprisonment and how he got connected with the whole concept and thinking of socialism at that time? >> yes. he was -- headed the american railway union, which had mounded a successful strike against the great northern railroad company based in minneapolis in 1893. so the a.r.u., as a result of that strike, gained thousands and thousands of members with debs as the head. many of those members were part of the pullman palace car company in 1894. they petitioned, they asked the a.r.u. for support when they decided to walk out against george pullman who had dropped their wages as a result of the depression by 28%. once their wages were dropped, they wanted to walk out and asked the a.r.u., headed by debs at that point for support.

debs was reluctant at first. he thought it was too risky. but the pullman workers had a lot of support, not only within pullman, the town of pullman, which is outside of chicago but also had a lot of support from railway workers all the way from there to st. louis. they staged what were some of the first boycott or sympathetic strikes along the railway lines. it became national in scope. as a result of that, president grover cleveland and the courts got involved and wanted to issue an injunction to stop the power of the a.r.u. and stopping the transport of goods and especially the u.s. mail along the railways through that corridor. grover cleveland got involved and sent u.s. troops to open up the railway depos that had been shut down as a result of the strike that had been called by the a.r.u.

then, debs was ultimately didn't call the striking workers off and was found in contempt of court for not following the injunction. so he served three months in prison as a result of being convicted in contempt of court. so then it was then when he was in prison after the pullman strike that he was introduced to socialist party literature and became a socialist party member and staunch advocate. >> i read a description that he left prison a changed man the first time. do you know more about that? >> well, i think he did come to the realization that he felt that when the federal troops came in and smashed the strike, when he ended up in prison for defending the rights of workers, that it made it as clear as it can be that the two parties were working against labor and there needed to be an alternative. he didn't go right away to socialism. he was involved in the populist

party very actively initially. when that failed, then the socialist party emerged after that. >> for our two guests, we are going to begin bringing your telephone calls into the mix. we have the phone numbers. they are 202-737-0001 in eastern and central. if you are in the mountain or pacific, 202-737-0002. we will mix calls in throughout our 90 minutes here. as we take our first call, we want to give you a sense of where the house is in terre haute and on the campus of indiana state university. we are going to show you that via a great google map as we listen to our first caller from bath, north carolina, steve. >> please compare debs with william jennings bryan in 1912 and for that matter over their careers. it seems like they are appealing or trying to appeal to similar constituency. >> thanks very much.

in the election of 1912, william jennings bryan was our earlier profile. how do they compare? >> debs was initially an admirer of bryan. i think that they shared some concerns about reform. i think the crucial difference is that debs was really a revolutionary. he was not only interested in reform. reform was necessary but he felt that something much greater was needed. there needed to be an end to capitalism and public ownership of the means of production. that was a position that clearly distinguished him from bryan's campaign. >> his first try, 1900, mckinley, william jennings bryan, and he got .6% of the popular vote that year. do you know what his early appeals were as a candidate and how they changed over his many bids?

>> the real challenge for debs was to try to knit together socialists coming from very, very different positions. one of the strongest hot beds of socialism was oklahoma. people who had been populists started to develop these socialism camp meetings where they would gather together to hear socialist speeches. debs was a real hero there. the socialists needed to also speak to trade unionists in chicago and milwaukee, to radical bohemians in san francisco and greenwich village, to jewish garment workers on the lower east side. the real challenge for debs and for the party was to find a way to knit together people who all agreed on some level that capitalism needed to change fundamentally. we are coming at this from very different positions. so it took a while to build the apparatus.

>> in another election in 1908 which involved william jennings bryan, it looks like debs was beginning to understand some early marketing because he had some campaign tactics like the red train special and the red special band. can you tell us more about that? >> 1908 was a critical year because of the popularity of the socialist party and the strength of labor unions and the american federation of labor unions and other unions in this period. his message as earnest was just saying, appealed to more people from a diverse amount of backgrounds. the red special would have been a good unifying kind of symbol to use to unite what were very disparate groups of people who were working on farms or who were in urban areas so it meant to his supporters a kind of a challenge to big business, a challenge to capitalism. they would have called it big

business a monopoly in that period. that's what red would have indicated in the 1908 election. it was a good way to unify people with the use of the red special. >> next telephone randy. >> caller: thank you. yes. i just wanted to give a little bit of background. my grandfather actually voted for eugene v. debs in the election. the other thing that i have, as i went through school, through the primary grades through high school, we never heard of eugene v. debs. it seems like one of the things that is really lacking in our education system is labor history. the fact that when people talk about social security, unemployment insurance and many people, even older people are surprised that people died for those benefits. they were not gifts. they were fought for. people literally were killed and beaten and jailed for the right. with the neofascists that are

now running on the republican party trying to push it farther to the right, it seems like eugene v. debs historically, but eugene v. debs historically, but eugene v. debs historically, but to reestablish that message now more than ever. we are in a critical part of history. if we are not careful, with he could be going towards fascism. i think that message now is more important than ever. >> randy, a question? a question for you, randy, before you go? >> the question is -- >> did you talk about debs with your grandfather? >> i am asking you, did you talk with your grandfather about debs? >> yes, i did. >> which election did he vote for him in? >> the 1916 election, i believe. >> 1920. >> 1916 was the year he sat out, as a matter of fact. >> thank you, randy. appreciate it. why did he sit out in 1916? >> he was in ill health.

i think he only ran in 1920, because of the unusual circumstances. he felt that it was time to pass on the baton of the movement to somebody else. he did run for congress here in indiana in 1916. he didn't feel up to the red special. when he was on that red special train, he was giving 15 speeches a day. he would come back exhausted to terre haute and collapse, i guess, in one of the bedrooms upstairs and spend weeks trying to recover. so in 1916, he decided to sit out. >> lisa phillips, randy's comments were probably music to your ears about the lack of teaching of labor history in schools. you teach at the college level. i am wondering what you are thinking about teaching of labor history to america's students today? >> of course, i would say it should be taught more than it is. i think that there is so much we can learn about working people, all of us who work every day and try to make ends meet and to

value them by teaching their history is very important. it gives us a different perspective on what it means to fight for some of the rights that the caller was mentioning and not take them for granted and realize as hard fought as they were fought for they can be easily taken away and fought for again. we need to really teach those struggles and how difficult it was so that we don't simply take for granted the benefits we received a result. >> in the early part of the 20th century, was there a middle class in the united states? >> sure. a large part of corporate capitalism actually generated a much larger middle class. >> the people he represented, would they have been part of the middle class? >> there were a large number of middle class supporters, people who went to debs' meetings, expecting to see them be working class people. they were often surprised to find that there were actually

many of the most important writers and political thinkers that we can think of from that time period were either members of the socialist party or at least very sympathetic to their agenda. he considered it a working class movement. it had a very strong leadership component that formed the middle class. >> the period, 1900, to mid 1915 or so, would it have been dangerous to call yourself a socialist in the united states. were the authorities watching you in any sort of way? >> no, i would say it was not. there are particularly incidents, to be involved as a socialist in a particular strike environment or was a problem, it was some conflict over the rights of soap box speakers. the socialists were big believers in bringing their message to the street through soap box oratory, and sometimes there were clashes with the police. as far as in terms of

persecution of socialists, they were part of the conversation. >> when did that change and when did the public at large start to get more suspicious about intentions? >> the socialists started to get votes and that started the conversation, 1908 and 1912, teddy rosevelt called debs one of our most undesirable citizens. there was a sense that the forces of moderate opinion needed to push back against socialism rhetorically at first. it wasn't really until world war i that the gloves really came off and socialism was sort of physically and legally assaulted. >> you're on. >> i'm loving the series. thank you for the series. really fascinating history. just off the bat here, a couple

things that strike me and hopefully your guests can comment, i was wondering, one is the grievances against growing capitalism, strangling the rights of the people as it is now. we have occupy wall street that has some of the same grievances, as i understand them, and also the idea of the organization, the mechanics of the organization of the movement. i don't know if you are aware of this. occupy wall street is receiving criticism because they are making a deliberate attempt not to have a platform or specific grievances. maybe you can talk about the mechanics of organizing the movement as debs understood it and who might have inspired him in his life. with things he might belief. thank you, thank you for the series. >> thank you.

thanks, cal. let me ask lisa to take up the question of what were his grievances against capitalism? >> his grievance against capitalism, it was monopoly he had the most trouble with. that's why he thought that an overthrow of corporate capitalism was in order. the grievance was the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few. and the controlling, what he argued early on was that combinations of corporations of business owners would be able to get together to control many aspects of the economy and that's what he was clearly against. so what he advocated were labor unions as similar combinations of workers who could then work together to break the monopolies that corporate entities had been forming with each other to try to control many aspects of the economy at the time.

so, in that way, people argue that our time period is very similar to debs' time period in terms of the growing gap between the wealthy and the less than wealthy. >> the mechanics that he used to organize them. >> i think that is a very interesting question. it is the case that socialists, one of the things that made debs socialism work that it has not worked in the country since is the talent for organizing and their willingness to attend a lot of meetings and develop a separate independent press. they were strong critics. in a way, it sounds modern about the influence of big money on newspapers and the media of the day. very much believed there was no way people were going to hear the workers' side of the story or their side of the story if they didn't create their own alternative press. that was crucial.

debs was the exciting person who blew in to town and rallied the troops. socialism really relied on much more of a grassroots organizing process. a lot of attempts to win at the local level. the presidency was out of reach, but it wasn't impossible to get on the city council. >> this was before radio began. politics for americans meant what in those lives? was it an activity to fill the evenings in ways that we don't really appreciate today? >> sure. this was a period of enormous party loyalty. >> people would gather in the evening and listen to speeches in ways that now we are busy with lives and have media in our lives. and that sort of thing. >> i think there were many more newspaper sources and they were much more barbed in political.

labor unions had their own press. there was a much more complicated mix available to people in print. >> actually, while we're talking about media, lisa phillips, will you talk about a publication which debs wrote frequently called "appeal to reason?" >> sure. my ear piece came out for just a second. it is sitting next to me. this is the "appeal to reason" right here. it was started in 1895 as a populist party newspaper. it became the journal or newspaper of the socialist party in 1901. it is one of those publications, many newspapers existed in that time period, where people would read and find out as much information as they could. so, it was upton sinclair, whose book we showed earlier, was the "appeal to reason." the first time it was published

was in "the appeal to reason." other people wrote in it. debs wrote in it. jack london wrote in it. many authors of the period would have written first in the "appeal to reason." which was after 1901. >> i would like to very briefly read to you from a statement that debs made after the 1912 election. he sent it by telegraph to be published in the "appeal to reason." results of the 1912 election statement. briefly. "from hand it is now certain that the socialist party has doubled its national vote." now that the battle is ours, we must lose no time in preparing for the next. we're the only ones who came out with colors flying. debs wrote the socialist party from now on is the party of the people. the virile young giant will go make history in the next few years, soon after, the democrats will feel empowered and thousands who voted their ticket will turn from them in disgust. how was he as a prognosticator?

>> that was a bad prediction. the socialist party started to decline right after that election, at least in terms of membership, and never recovered that peak. >> why? >> one reason was the wilson administration did the opposite of what debs predicted. it brought in a slate of reforms. our controls for eight-hour day for railroad workers, some regulation of the banking system, some gestures for the right for unions to organize. only small steps to what the socialists wanted, but enough to win a lot of voters. >> let's take the next telephone call. this is from courtland, new york. sharon is on the line. go ahead, please. >> caller: i want to thank c-span3 for the series. i'm? i'm joy enjoying it so much. i wonder if your guests would comment on the formative years

and what his parents did for a living. thank you very much. >> thank you. would you like to take that ernest freeberg? >> you know what? i'm not sure i can remember what debs' father did for a living. they lived in terre haute. i know he was a great idealist. debs himself, his middle name is after victor hugo, and the name idealism of the french novelist was part of his upbringing. >> i was just remembering debs' father was a processor of pork in terre haute in a manufacturing plant and he was ill. he could not dthat work. there is reminiscence of his being depressed as a worker and his wife, they had two small children and she was pregnant with eugene debs so they opened a small grocery in the front of their house.

he went on to be a successful grocer in terre haute. his dad was a grocer, and so one of debs' first jobs was as an accountant for the home and grocery line. he had experience with the family business until that enabled him to do that work. so that was what his family's income came from having been a small business. >> why does he have to drop out of school at age 14? >> as i recall, i think it wasn't common for people to finish high school. he wanted to get a job on the railroads because the railroads were the new and exciting thing for young men to become part of it. his first job was a paint scraper for the local railroad that was running through terre haute that was coming through. it was owned by chauncey rose.

and then by william mckeen. he was a paint scraper first, and it was a new and exciting job for him in an era where people didn't commonly finish high school. >> while we're talking about his personal life, can either of you talk about his marriage? >> that was always a source of controversy in the movement. he was deeply loyal to kate debs. but it was pretty clear that she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congress member and not a socialist. she's often spoken in favor of socialism publicly, but not enthusiastically. many decided she would have been happier if he had not pursued that life, which also kept him on the road most of the time. debs was back in terre haute mostly to collapse upstairs and try to recover before he headed out on another campaign.

she was left keeping the home fires burning in the lovely house. >> so kate spent a lot of time in the living room where we are right now in the house of terre haute, indiana. >> with down and out railroad workers knocking on the door. and hoping they could see their hero. >> did they ever have any children? >> no. >> you said he traveled extensively and she chose never to do that, or we don't know that she was ever invited to go along? >> let's take our next phone call in terre haute, indiana. tom. here we are in your home town. have you been to the debs house? >> caller: no, i have not. i work two blocks away. i have no excuse for that. thank you for a fantastic series. i would like to make a quick comment because there's so many people across america who would love to be calling. i lucked out to do it. i want to say this. when the unions and socialism

came about because of the lack of benevolent employers. i want to make one point. i lived in colorado and i worked with westinghouse. i called on the mines of colorado. i used to drive through southern colorado on interstate 25. i would pass a town called ludlow. i would ask miss phillips if she knows anything about the ludlow massacre and i'm not sure when it happened. i'm sure debs was alive at the time. i would just hang up now and please ponder what i said. you moguls of america who -- we need jobs and we need them now. please, could you tell us a little bit about the ludlow massacre in colorado?

thank you. >> the ludlow massacre and several other massacres or riots of that time period were often blamed on the striking workers or the protesting workers at the time, whether they be miners or whether they be protesting for their rights. what happened in ludlow, which happened in haymarket and happened in other riotous incidents where there would be federal troops or authorities brought in to quell the protesting workers and many of them would be killed. i can't remember how many people died in the ludlow massacre, but haymarket and other riots in homestead strike, several people would be killed. then the unions or the striking workers would be blamed for having caused a riot and for protesting. that caused a lot of -- that was part of the reason of the

precursor of the knights of labor went by the wayside because they were blamed in part for the haymarket riot which caused the deaths of several people. the ludlow massacre similarly, was an incident where striking workers were killed and where people were blamed, the workers themselves or strikers themselves were blamed for that. to get to the caller's original point, what debs actually wanted was a return to the benevolent employer. he had been friends with people in terre haute like william mckeen who owned part of the railroad that came through terre haute, who he supported when they had the best interest of terre haute in mind. it was when they brought in what mckean called and others called heavy capitalists and they were making relationships with people out east that debs started to break his ties with smaller

business owners in places like terre haute and started criticizing them for their need for profit. it wasn't small business that he originally was against. it was the for-profit motive that drove the small business men to become business moguls and create conditions that caused the ludlow massacre and haymarket riot among workers who felt they had no other choice but to strike. >> were there socialists all across the united states or was it a regional phenomenon? >> no, all across the united states. here in the midwest and out west, especially with the western federation of miners, they were big supporters of the socialist party. big bill haywood was a founding member of it. mostly out west, oklahoma, the midwest and east in places like new york, were the strongholds

of the socialist party. they drew support from rural americans and farms being effective negatively by capitalism, from urban areas like chicago, new york, from western coal miners, so they drew support from lots of people who were similarly negatively effected by the rising of this corporate kind of capitalism. >> you had a thought? >> i think rather than moving toward more benevolent employers, debs, i didn't think believed it was possible at this point. rather than ending monopoly capitalism and going back to small-scale capitalism, socialists were arguing that business will get bigger and bigger. the important thing is for it to be run by the people rather than by individuals for private gain. this was a more radical proposition as a way to solve the problem. there were plenty of people who were seriously engaged with trying to figure out how to

soften the hard edges of the industrial revolution that was going on. mark andrew carnegie, most notably, with his gospel of wealth, said they needed to be more benevolent moguls. debs said that's not the problem, essentially. we need to continue to build monopolies and take them for the people. >> we are profiling eugene v. debs at his home in terre haute, indiana, in our series "the contender" where 14 men tried for the presidency and lost but changed american history. we have 90 minutes to learn more about his period of time and his five runs from the presidency from 1900 through 1920. for our two guests here in terre haute, our next caller is from outside washington, this is john. hi, john. >> caller: wonderful program, thanks for c-span. i was intrigued by your guest's

comment that teddy roosevelt said that eugene debs was the most dangerous man in america or something to that affect. when teddy roosevelt was known as a trust buster and breaking up standard oil. it seems they have some things in common. i wonder if your guests could comment on that. >> ernest? >> good question. sure. roosevelt said we need to take what he called the sane part of the debsian program and adopt it. debs with his interest in taking over private industry and trying to run it through the people democratically, that would undermine one of the pillars of american democracy and private property and free enterprise. on the other hand, he was well aware of the growing concern among workers and the middle

class about the problems of big business. so he basically, roosevelt argued it was important to take the good ideas, the things we now have inherited from the socialist movement in many ways we have been talking ability and to adopt those. these became an important part of his progressive party platform and part of the reform agenda for the wilson administration. he said, debs wants to tear down in the spirit of hate by stirring up class envy workers against their masters in a sense. what he wanted to do was to socialize the country in a different way without socialism. >> lisa phillips, you have more to add? >> i think too, i might be remembering this wrong, but i don't think teddy roosevelt supported nationwide strikes of the type that happened under the a.r.u. with pullman.

that seemed dangerous to presidents who were in charge of making sure the country ran smoothly. any time you saw a case where there was a strike fermented by by a national laber union that disrupted the goods and something as crucial as the mail in that time period, that, too, would have put teddy roosevelt and eugene debs on the opposite side of the divide there in terms of how able you should be to top business from functioning. >> another topic all together to understand socialist thinking in the united states in the early 20th century. what about the intersection between socialist thinking and religion? >> a very large number of socialists were religious. especially in the south in oklahoma and texas. a strong party there. a very strong movement of what was called the social gospel or social christianity.

many of those were supporters of debs even though debs was a believer in the most tenuous sense. he considered churches to be of the enemy. part of the apparatus to oppress workers, particularly the catholic church. he was very critical. claimed never to go into a church. but many christians felt that he in his sort of humanitarian compassion for workers really exemplified a tremendous number of people over the course of his career said i don't know what he believes, but he is the most christ-like person that i know. his compassion for the underdog is the essence of christianity. this is an important distinction between the debsian socialist

movement and the communist movement that comes after that. not everybody in the socialist movement was a believer, by any means, but it was something where that was an important part of the mix. >> if you signed your name to a card that said i'm a member of the socialist party in this time period, what did that mean your core beliefs were? >> the most important struggle was the struggle between the working class and the owning class. this was inevitably going to result in a victory for the working class as a necessary next step in the evolution of history and for american socialists, i think, a necessary next step to realize or to protect the principles of the american revolution. to protect the dignity of the individuals embodies in their ability to participate equally in their economy. >> and very much thought of themselves as patriots. we touched on that theme before. >> yes.

>> harkening back, he spoke of lincoln and also of some of the founding fathers in his writings. he really saw himself as an extension of the early roots of american history? >> defining american -- the important movers and shakers in american history as being radicals. history is driven forward by people. he would point back to jesus, to socrates, thomas jefferson, wendell philips. they start out with an idea that seems deeply unpopular, but in retrospect, it's a necessary next step for moral evolution. >> we have a hoosier for the next call. this is chris on the line. welcome to the conversation. >> caller: thanks for having the conversation. it is a great surprise to see on television tonight. i wonder if your guests would be able to comment on debs' relationship with the industrial workers of the world and with general strike in seattle.

>> all right. lisa phillips. the i.w.w. >> debs was a founding member of the i.w.w. which started in 1905. the i.w.w. was clearly an industrial union movement. it was juxtaposed against the federal labor which is a craft skilled labors union. it was like what he promoted with socialism, a working class of people. its boundaries are not as nationalistic, and it's thought to work with workers in other countries, spain, france, italy. this never came to be, but they saw themselves as part of a worker's movement among workers fighting capital world wide rather than just in the united

states. it fit in with debs interpretation to promote the rights of workers not only in the united states, but other places as well. >> was he affiliated with them throughout his life? >> no, there was a split within it's kind of complicated. there was a split in the i.w.w. over -- the socialist party had -- there was a split within the socialist party that affected the i.w.w., so he remained very much supported the i.w.w. but took less of a leadership position once rival socialist party leaders, i think it was morris hillquist took -- and big bill haywood took over the i.w.w., brought in different divisions than debs had in mind. >> was the i.w.w. the wobbly? >> yes. one of the most important breaks was over the issue of violence or sabotage.

the wobblies argued. this was a tough bunch in a tough environment working in the mines and lumber fields. they argued there were times when in order to advance their cause, they needed to use sabotage or other forms of violence in order to fight back. >> did debs agree with that? >> debs did not agree with that. he wasn't a pacifist. he recognized you needed violence at times, but advocating violence was not appropriate for american democracy. in fact, workers always lost. when they tried violence, most of the power to spread violence around belonged to the state. >> next up is minneapolis. this is ken. hi, ken. >> caller: hello. this is ken in minneapolis. thank you, c-span3 for the series. i work in public radio and a little bit earlier your scholars

were talking about debs and media. in new york city, there is or was a famous radio station wevb. the name for eugene v. debs. it debuted in the early 1920s. it was the first non-commercial listener supported radio stations. given debs' name and call letters, i wonder if he had any involvement in the radio station. >> thanks. his demise was in 1926. radio just beginning to come on the scene as a medium. did he have a connection? >> as far as i know, he had no direct correction to it. it is a homage to him. >> we have 35 minutes left already. this program has gone by quickly. the question for you about debs if you can answer this. if he were to walk into this

room, we're surrounded by images of him all over the house. it is interesting how many you have preserved here in the foundation. can you give us a sense of how tall a man he was? was he slight? give us a personal glimpse of him if you can. >> as far as i know, i think he was 6'2" or 6'3". ernest, i'm not sure if that is correct. >> that's about right. >> i think he was always very thin. he was very lanky. you can see that in the pictures of him. he was that way from his youth on. so he was a commanding figure, but he was not burly. i guess i would say. >> you told me he was also an advocate of some of the contemporary eating fads of the days, more early holistic health. can you tell us about that? >> he was often ill. it was hard to pin down the

problem. some biographers suggested it was a nervous exhaustion from the campaigns, the stress he was under. he would retreat and try to recover and he would experiment with walnuts and sleeping -- a catch of diet and sleeping with his head oriented to the north and these kinds of things. he would often write back to his brother suggesting these were working out great for him. >> switching gears. in our time, as the nation began to march toward world war i, what happened to the labor movement as all of the international political turmoil in the country was making the decisions about his role in that? >> sure. when the war first broke out in europe, most americans, workers and otherwise, were very determined to keep out of the war. and there were isolationists, especially in the midwest and south, who said god gave us the

atlantic ocean for a reason. that is not to get involved in the european war. the many large immigrant groups in the country were deeply divided over the conflict overseas but didn't want to participate, helping the other side. so there was a strong push for neutrality, initially, until things escalated out of control. wilson was elected for a second term. campaigning that he had kept the country out of war, that he was a negotiator for peace. just weeks after being inaugurated for a second term, he started to move the country to war. >> i want to show our viewers your book. we are now getting into your subject area "democracy's prisoners, eugene v. debs." the great war and the rise to dissent. in 1917, congress passed a law about the speech about the war. would you tell the viewers what

the law was? >> it is called the espionage act. it was never used to convict any spies during the war. theres were german spies. much of the law dealt with that. there were provisions that allowed the government to have enormous control over the dissent. the post master was given the power to ban any publication that was -- anything that the post master considered to be not supportive of the war, not patriotic. anybody deemed to say anything that was discouraging of the war effort was libel to have a $10,000 fine and 10 to 20 years in prison. >> the first amendment challenge all over this. did the supreme court ever hear the law? >> sure. debs was one of the important test cases. there were three test cases that came up about 1,200 people were convicted under the espionage act.

>> and were sent to prison. >> and were sent to prison. the supreme court unanimously supported it at that time. >> debs began to be anti-war at what point? >> he was -- as i said earlier, he wasn't a pacifist. there are some wars, a class struggle in which it might make sense at some point to take up arms. and he felt that the civil war was an appropriate use of arms. he considered the war in europe to be the socialist argument was this was a clash between competing empires over colonies and that the only people who were going to benefit, the old phrase, a rich man's war and a poor man's fight. there was lots of money to be made in the war, but the working people were the ones who were going to suffer. that was the socialist position. when the war broke out and when wilson and congress moved to

war, the socialists gathered in st. louis a few days later and passed a proclamation vowing they were going to fight the war rhetorically in every possible way they could and fight the draft actively. a number of socialists broke from the party at that point. upton sinclair felt was if that was the wrong move. others worried that the party would be destroyed by this and labeled un-american. but debs and quite a number of the party decided it was a stand they needed to take. >> i'll take a call from reid in nashville, tennessee and then ask you about what the popular view in america was about the draft at that time. reid, your question, please. >> caller: how are you? thank you for your discussion tonight. it's very wonderful. i want to take -- >> thanks for watching. >> caller: yes. unfortunately, socialism and debs and the idea of the key

word of essential planning. that would mean there is a group who involved themselves in the central planning of the society and that leads itself to a small group who define how citizens should behave. i want to say that socialism, although wonderful in its ideals and communism ideals and all that, does not truly exist. i believe that james madison described it correctly. unfortunately, we are in competition with one another. that is what satisfies. that leads to individual freedom. central planning leads to a small group, which today, reflects today, as we want someone whose central plans in society who benefits and who doesn't benefit. it leads to someone in a small group calling who wins and who loses. thank you. thank you again.

>> thanks, reid. lisa phillips. comments? >> that was not too far off of debs' position. believe it or not because what he was arguing is that the central planners of his day were these large business owners, the carnegies, rockefellers, vanderbilts who had a lot of political power influence and in essence through monopoly formation, were the central planners of the economy in that period. he would have been with you on that. but he just wanted there to be a more diverse group of people, working people, who had a role in the planning of the economy and how wealth was distributed. he was against the central planning done in the period by wealthy by that point, americans and business owners. >> in the interest of time here, we were talking about the draft. i want to go on to his position on the draft.

his famous speech in canton, ohio. to share with our viewers, a speech that ended up having debs arrested. to get a flavor of it. here is one of two quotes. who shed their blood tfurnish their corpses never had a voice in declaring war or making peace. yours is not the reason why, yours but to do and die, if war is right let it be declared by the people. when he made that speech, did he know he was going to go to jail? >> he had to know that it was likely. he knew there were federal agents and stenographers in the audience taking down the speech. i think he was -- he gave a number of speeches along the same lines up to that point and had not been arrested. he said at the start of the speech, i need to be careful what i say. i'm not going to say anything i don't believe, but i have to be careful. i know i'm being watched. the audience fully understood the situation. he spent much the time watching

saying his colleagues were already in prison and if they're guilty, i'm guilty. >> what was his trial like, a big national event? >> yes, it certainly was. it was in cleveland. debs got an opportunity to make two very powerful speeches about socialism in front of a national audience. his lawyers, you know, hoped to get him off on a technicality and also were interested in making a strong free speech argument in his defense. he felt as if the system was rigged. that the judiciary was in the pockets of big business and it was more important for him to take this opportunity to win a propaganda coup for socialism by laying out his life's work. >> and he ultimately was sentenced to ten years. you said the terms were up to 20? >> yes.

it was hard to say he got a break. he was an older man at that point and not in good health. when he went off to prison, many people assumed if he did not get out, he would die in prison. >> we have about 20 minutes left. we're going to take a couple calls and talk about his 1920 campaign from inside the atlanta federal prison. to oklahoma and donna. >> caller: hello. i'm so happy to hear this program. i can't tell you how grateful i am to have it over the air. a little comment about ludlow, colorado. i was a very good friend of a woman who is my mother's age. she talked about her parents being part of what happened in ludlow. she told me because i was going on a road trip with my son to look for a sign just north of trinidad along the road, and all it will say is "this is the place."

that is the place where my friend terry's mother and father ran down a dry river bed and shots fired all around them running for their lives. the second thing i would like to say is a little something about upton sinclair. i lived in san pedro, california for several years. the land of dock workers. upton sinclair was arrested in san pedro for reading the constitution to the dock workers. that began the southern california aclu. the third comment is i have moved back to oklahoma. i have been gone for about 50 years. i lived here as a teenager. but i went to a labor rally in support of the wisconsin public employees and was on the state capitol steps. a friend of mine stood next to me with a little sign in latin.

she told me it was the oklahoma state motto. it was from a socialist desire. it is labor conquers all. now we are the reddest state in the union which is a ironic thing. >> thank you so much for your comments, we'll let that stand and take a call from eric in los angeles. go ahead. >> caller: this is eric. i also am enjoying the program. i think eugene debs tried to keep us to our ideals. my question is about joe paraman. he was a social christian socialist who ran on the ticket with debs in 1900. and later involved with the trial of the mcnamara brothers who were accused of using sabotage to further their cause.

joe was one of the attorneys with clarence darrow. i know debs defended in print the mcnamaras. i wondered if they could comment about that. thank you. >> lisa phillips, is this a period of debs' life you could fill us in on? >> i don't know enough about it. i do know that i failed to mention earlier that clarence darrow was a big part of debs' defense in 1894 after he was accused of -- convicted of contempt of court after the pullman strike. i don't know enough about joe paraman to comment. on his involvement with debs or the mcnamara brothers. >> debs did not intend to justify the dynamiting of the building, which was the los angeles times building, which was the center of the tremendous anti-labor sentiment at that point.

he believed the mcnamaras were innocent. much of his defense of them was really based on believing this was a false charge. under the espionage act. he made a speech at his sentencing. one of his quotes is among eugene v. debs' most famous. it is i said then and i said now. that while there is a lower class, i am in it. and while there is a criminal element, i am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, i am not free. he went to prison and in 1920, campaign, he decided to take part in. can you tell me about how he campaigned for president from his prison cell in atlanta? how did he do that? >> he was not allowed -- it was

an awkward situation for the federal government because he was a seditionist being jailed, but he was also a legitimate candidate from a legitimate legal party. they actually showed up, presented him with flowers. nominated him. allowed him to give a speech, the socialists did. the government allowed him to campaign by submitting eight 500-word letters to the press over the course of the campaign. somebody who had been on the red special and giving hundreds of speeches was basically spending the campaign relying on his party to go out and spread the word. >> lisa phillips, you have one of his campaign buttons. can you show it to us? >> here it is. >> it's very small. what does it say? >> it says "convict number 9653 for president." it's one of the most famous campaign buttons for president

in u.s. history. it's one of the only like it. >> he managed to garner nearly 1 million votes from inside the federal penitentiary. how did he do that? that's a question for you, lisa. >> he did that because he had such a national following. it was 1920. he had been in the national newspapers for several years. people knew of his message, the i.w.w. continued to support him. labor unions continued to support him. despite the fact that he was accused of encouraging people not to enlist in the military during world war i which was extremely problematic, he still had a following among workers among trade unionists, among socialists who believed in his message. so he did that because of his national reputation by then. >> what were the themes of the 1920 campaign? >> many of the socialists

leaders and debs a little less, his campaign said this is a vote for free speech. this is an opportunity for all americans, whether you are a socialist or not, to cast a vote in protest against the wilson administration. debs embodied at that point all of the prisoners and all of the actions that had been done by mob violence, by state laws, by the postal censor to squash. not just socialists, but pacifists of all kinds had been rounded up. by 1920, many americans who, you know, in the grip of war fever had thought maybe that was a good idea. started to reconsider that. they were particularly supported by a small group of people who became the american civil liberties union in trying to advance their rights. there were only about 100,000 socialists, actually far less than that by this point. i think the number is something in the 20,000 to 30,000 dues paying members. and he got 1 million votes.

some of those people were socialists, but i think a lot of the people were voting for free speech. >> terre haute, indiana. this is dave. hi, dave. >> caller: hello, how are you all? >> great, thanks. here we are in your town. do you have a question about one of your famous citizens? >> caller: i do. i'm a graduate of indiana state university. the same university that you all are sitting on. what was eugene v. debs' impact on the university at the time if any? was indiana a normal school and a school of educators. did he take part in the development of the university? >> thanks very much. lisa phillips, do you know? >> you know, i don't know. that's a great question. i don't know if eugene debs had any kind of influence on indiana state as a normal school in that

period. but i am curious now to find out. >> syracuse, new york. ralph, go ahead. >> caller: yes, i'm a uaw worker from upstate new york. i think the problem was you had at the time, you had eugene debs and the socialist labor party and then the socialist workers party. then you had sam gompers. of the american federation of labor, and gompers and debs didn't see eye to eye. i think that's a problem that you never had a unified workers movement in this country. it was splintered groups. that was the problem that he never was able to achieve his goals. i wonder if your guests could comment on that. thank you very much. >> lisa phillips. >> there was a huge split and the caller is absolutely right. this continues to the present day among labor unions with the

split between craft unionism which was embodied by the labor union versus industrial unionism which is what debs advocated through the iww. debs was after a working class movement where you erased the license that divided skills workers from unskilled workers. whereas the american federation of labor was composed of very tightly organized craft based unions. whether they are coopers or plumbers or carpenters or brick layers or that sort of thing. it was a very different kind of approach toward representing working class interests. they did not see eye-to-eye in continuing into the 1930s and '40s and '50s and beyond. >> debs campaigning for president in 1920. during the wilson administration, twice, his attorney general put before him clemency petitions. why did wilson say no? >> it's a little complicated.

wilson was open to the idea initially, it seems, as a way to sort of clear the air after the war. he had a stroke. he seemed to sort of lose his moral compass. many people felt it was an obvious gesture of goodwill that he might make. he heard from a lot of soldiers and their families that debs was a traitor. it was certainly not just the government that considered debs to be and these others to have crossed the line. debs was the embodiment of that dissent. >> was there an active campaign with lots of money by the american legion and veteran groups like that to keep debs in jail? >> sure. that was one of their primary missions when they first organized after world war i. they said this was their priority number one, keep debs in prison. the ku klux klan was forming at this point. they also considered debs and the other radicals that it was

important they stay in prison. there was a lot of pressure on the president and not a lot of political gain in his judgment to release. >> how did he secure an early release? >> well, wilson left office and the whole process of putting pressure on the president began again with warren harding. people in the amnesty movement were a lot less optimistic about convincing harding because he was a pro-business republican who seemed to have less motivation, you know, plenty of socialists who supported wilson. it seems like wilson would be the one to let the socialists out of prison. harding campaigned on the idea of returning the country to a pre-war normalcy to stop the

tensions. the amnesty movement to try to get debs out of prison was not just the election, by it was a huge movement. there were petitions gathered on the street of terre haute and across the country. massive petition drives. they would bring the petitions in on a back of a pickup truck to deliver to the white house. many, you know, people from across europe and the united states george bernard shaw and h.d. wells and helen keller -- many, many people involved to try to get the prisoners out. for harding, he had no interest in inheriting this mess from wilson. so in the name of normalcy, he waited a little while and let debs out of prison. >> not only let him out, but invited him to the white house? >> that's right. >> and debs went? >> debs went.

yeah. >> what do we know about that meeting? >> neither one of them said anything about it. harding said something like, you know, i'm so damn glad to meet you. it was a christmas afternoon meeting, i guess. debs came out and said harding seems like a very nice man. i believe he said, you know, the president asked me to tone down my rhetoric. i have no intention of doing that. he got back on the train and headed to terre haute. >> you are looking at rare footage. i don't know if it has been seen before on tv of debs coming out of the white house and speaking to the media after his meeting with the president there. he lived until 1926. we have just about ten minutes left. let's get a couple calls and we'll talk about his legacy.

james, you're on the air, go ahead please. >> caller: hi, is it okay if i have two questions? >> go ahead, james. >> caller: hi. i have two questions. >> we're going to move on -- >> caller: hello? >> james, yes, we can hear you -- let's move on, please. i'm sorry. our time is short. next up, graham from charleston, south carolina. >> caller: good evening. my question, i just want to know what you thing, if any, debs' movement could exist in modern day america with the development of global capitalism and then what you think debs would think about the tea party movement that's going on currently. thank you. >> thanks so much. it's always a tough thing for historians, isn't it, to project what a historical character might think of today? >> needs to be done with real caution. first thing i would say is global capitalism is not something new. that was very much an issue with

the flow of immigrants and the worldwide nature of capitalism in debs' own day. sometimes we overstate the distinctive global nature of the economy that we live in now. as far as the tea party goes, lisa? >> he certainly wouldn't have been in agreement with the tea party support of big business. that's the simplest way i can put it. i don't know -- you know, his message still resonates, i think, with us today, and we're still facing some of the same problems that he was fighting against as a result of -- of workers' wages being driven down by the policies of now global, multi-national corporations, not just in the u.s., but worldwide. he certainly would have a lot to say about the same types of things that have escalated from his period to today. i'm sure he would still be against the negative impact of multi-national corporations now

globally. >> you have a time artifact for us to look at. his cell block keys. >> yes. >> look at the size of those. >> i know, they're huge. >> i use that as reminder of the prison term to help us finish out our program here. how is he viewed by the labor movement today? how do they look back on his time and contributions? >> he -- well, i just attended a banquet last week put on by the debs foundation where many labor union, trade unionists, and danny gover was in attendance. he continues to carry that legacy for workers in this country and beyond. so he certainly resonates here in terre haute and among trade unionists across the country, i would argue. >> as we think about his final years, i was showing you before we started here, the "time"

magazine, monday november 21st, 1926 oh bit wear. around him he saw socialist party disintegrating. within him, he felt his strength ebbing. a month ago, he went to a sanitarium where he died age 71. what were his final years like after prison and how important a voice was he in those last years? >> he spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party that had been so badly splintered by the war. without success. and that was -- that was both a self-inflicted wound because the socialist party itself had had a bitter split over communism. it was a very difficult thing for him. the communists were trying to

convince him to join them. he was the country's most famous, most high profile and beloved radical and the communists wanted very much to have him on board. debs had been very enthusiastic about the revolution. he objected to the idea of a dictatorship and the methods. so he was left with a half a party. much of the young energy had gone into the communist party at this point. meanwhile, the party had been smashed by legal attacks and mob attacks during the war. he tried to rebuild the party for those years without a whole lot of success. >> he is buried here in terre haute, indiana. we have some video of his grave site. we're going to look at this as we listen to manny from new york city. >> caller: what was his view on

the russian revolution and can we separate socialism from marxism during this time period? >> huge topics and not much time. >> he did not visit russia. there was an attempt to get him to go to russia. they considered debs to be an american hero. he was an admirer of their revolution, but ultimately felt like the things the bolsheviks did in russia was not appropriate for american socialism. that americans in spite of all he had experienced, being sent to prison twice for his actions, he still believed in american democracy and still believed the way forward for american workers was to organize in unions and to support the socialist party.

>> this is todd, go ahead, todd. >> caller: hi. i'm calling from terre haute and i'd like to thank you for this program. for lisa, who i understand is a member of the eugene v. debs foundation, i'd like her to address debs' continuing legacy of peace, equality and social justice and let them know how to pursue it if they want to know something more about it. >> certainly. in this age of technology, there's a website devoted to the debs foundation. that's an easy way to access information about what's here in the debs house and about debs' legacy. you know, the social justice piece is what we call it today. but he, as i said earlier, he certainly continues to provide inspiration to working people here in terre haute and throughout the u.s. as they struggle against lowering wages,

unemployment, all the things that are plaguing us today. >> this house is open for visitors. how many do you get every year and how do people visit? >> i don't know the numbers on how many people we have every year. but the museum is open every afternoon of the week and on saturdays. and you can go to the website and contact karen brown who runs tours of the museum throughout the week. >> we have one minute left. i'm going to turn the floor over to you. >> another great resource is the indiana state university special collections has online amazing collection of images of debs, also access to his letters and so forth. >> your book, too, as we close here, "democracy's prisoners." i want to say thanks to both of you as we close out here for being with us in terre haute, indiana. and telling us more about his affect on american history.

thank yous to the eugene foundation itself. charles king at indiana state university. the cunningham memorial library special collections and our affiliate time warner cable. from terre haute, indiana, the eugene v. debs home and museum. ♪ >> if you missed any of our american history tv programming about eugene debs and the election of 1912, you'll have another chance to see it tonight

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