contenders." >> wherever he goes, he speaks out on the issues. he answers exactly where he stands on domestic and foreign policy. everywhere he goes, people are responding with enthusiasm for this new and different kind of statement. barry goldwater has been constantly on the go. it is a grueling schedule. whenever he can, he catches a quick nap, here with his nap peggy. and with his wife peggy. he is calling for courage and integrity and meeting problems. he is calling for an end to do

nothing policies. he is calling for a rebirth of individual freedom. >> we base our reliance on freedom. we reject, therefore, the ideas of the economic planners in washington. a group of people sitting in washington can plan when the country is going to make, where it is going to be made, the quality of the product, the price of the product, the wages to be made, the profits to be made, etc.. in simpler terms, this is called socialism. it has never worked in the history of the earth. it is not working today in countries where it has been tried. >> republican presidential candidates barry goldwater campaign in 1964. c-span's "the contenders" coming

to you from phoenix, arizona. we look at his political influence during the second half of the 20th century. we welcome you tonight and our audience at the goldwater institute and our three guests who will walk us through the life and political career of barry goldwater beginning with rick perlstein. he has written for "the nation ," and is also the author of the book "nixonland." darcy olsen darcyolsen -- also, darcy olsen. her editorials have appeared in the washington journal and the national review. he served two turn to the state legislature including one term in the senate. he has produced 90 documentary's including "barry goldwater, an american life."

he called himself a different kind of a candidate for a different kind of an election year. how so? >> i think the thing that may have most different is that he was a reluctant presidential candidate. if we think about all of the people running for president in 2012, we cannot say any of them are reluctant. it is a full-time job. it is consuming. ever since 1960 when the first group of people came to barry goldwater and tried to draft him and said we want to make to a presidential candidate, he would say that is the last thing on my mind. i don't want to run for president. he once even said i do not have the brains to be president. over and over again, he said we don't care. we are going to draftee. that is what happened. he pretty much was drafted by followers to raise money and built an organization on his own. >> we will talk about this letter. the assassination of john kennedy. how did that influence his decision to go ahead in 1964.

what's he was inching toward doing it in the fall of 1963. one of the reasons was president kennedy had introduced a civil rights bill that was beginning to build a strong backlash. there were people talking about president kennedy being vulnerable in 1964. goldwater was close to kennedy and he liked kennedy. when john kennedy was assassinated, it is hard to reconstruct the context and our minds. it was so care wing for the american people. people like extremism. people blame the ideological politics that americans did not want to believe as part of their political system. barry goldwater and immediately lost interest. it was another month and a half before he answered the call of one more group of people coming to him and begging him saying it was his duty to support the pr

republican cause. >> this book was the manifest of why he was running. the ideology that shaped him. in the piece of film which showed you, he talked about freedom and free enterprise and the failed socialist experiment that democrats were pushing in the 1960's. >> barry goldwater stood for one thing. he was very clear about it. that was freedom. that but today is just as relevant as it was when it was written 50 years ago. barry goldwater would say, circumstances change. principles do not. when he was getting ready to run for office, he said, as i survey the landscape at look at the questions that might occur to me, the most important concern that i will have -- the most important question i will ask myself is, are we maximizing freedom? that was the beginning and the

end of his political analysis. >> take us back to 1964 and walk us through barry goldwater in the u.s. senate for two terms. what led him to this point on the national stage? >> really in a sense the simplicity of his perspective. simplicity as compared to more complicated politics. we have to go back. you have to look at barry goldwater in the context of his times. his family came here in the 1950's. he grew up and dusty little phoenix that had 8000 or 9000 people at the time. life was more simple here than it was in the east. when he was born it was not a state for two or three more years. but his life style -- this was part of the old west at that time.

it was not new york city and what ever. you have to look at barry goldwater from his family history, it meant a lot to him. up until world war ii, what was life like here? it was very simple. it was very unsophisticated. it was black and white. it was right and wrong it was the old west. i bring that up because that is what shapes -- where did he get these views which i call small l libertarian. it was the context in which he grew up. you ask me a question but i cannot remember what the question was pure >> what led us to 1964, and what shape is ideology in the 1950's? >> it was truthfully what i just said. it was simple. i do not mean that in a negative way.

it was sort of simple. there was right and wrong. there was good and bad and it is and bat and the other. you get into world war ii which he served in. remember, world war ii was the major good vs. bad thing. and we get into the cold war with the soviet union. all of these things from barry goldwater's perspective for pretty black and white -- especially compared to today's politics where you don't know quite who is doing what to goma. -- to whom. he was the personification of good versus bad, right versus wrong, whether you agree with him or not. i think that had a lot of appeal by the time the 1950's and certainly 1964 came about. >> i'm going to come back later and ask you about your impressions of him. let's focus on the 1964 race.

you had otherented the race like governor scranton of pennsylvania who was in and out again. nelson rockefeller spent a lot of money to try to secure the nomination. walk us through how the search candidates challenged barry goldwater. >> the republican party was a different institution and then it is now. it was controlled by moderates and even liberals. the entire ideology of the party system was different. each party had in it both conservatives and liberals. the democratic party's had very conservative members in the south and liberals in the north. the republicans had a conservative wing from the midwest and a republic -- a liberal wing from the northeast. with the barry goldwater campaign was all about was trying to take over the party from the bottom up -- the bottom up being these

conservative ideological activists. they had their meetings and country clubs and very fancy places. it was presumed that someone like nelson rockefeller was the heir apparent for the republican nomination. the idea that a conservative could have won the nomination was absolutely seen as a possible by the pundits. the pundits then said that america was a liberal center- left consensus. when dwight eisenhower not only embraced in the new deal but even expanded it, opening up something like the department of health, education, and welfare. instituting the interstate. it was just presumed that the conservatism of the 1920's, which was seen as something that have gotten us into the depression was no longer relevant to modern life. >> in your book, you point out

to dump key primaries that were critical in 1964. oregon which nelson rockefeller one and a california which barry goldwater 1. >> california was an absolutely fascinating knock down drag out political fight. i talked earlier about how barry goldwater had these impassioned supporters who would do what ever they want even if barry goldwater told them not to do it. these are people from groups like the john birch society. some were segregationists. they were far right extremists. they were basically willing to knock on doors until there knuckles were bloody. they were willing to sabotage other campaigns. it was seen as the fight for civilization itself. the other candidates -- the liberal candidates were seen as these sort of harbingers of the socialism that they believed

was destroying civilization itself. it was incredibly impassion. >> two years after richard nixon lost his governorship, he was still a player in the republican party in 1964. he was trying to figure out a way the party might turn to him if they did not want to rockefeller or barry goldwater. >> you mention the oregon primary. he established a secret boiler room in which people were hired to make phone calls to voters saying, would not be able to meet idea if richard nixon was drafted to be president? this is richard nixon we are talking about. someone found out about it. a camera crew showed up. richard nixon was scheming and he was always hoping that barry goldwater and rockefeller were not point -- would knock each other out. there was a cartoon that showed them having a shootout in the

middle of an old western town. richard nixon was rubbing his hands. richard nixon's political undertaker's parlor. we as alwaywant to hear from you. our phone lines are open. if you live in the eastern or central time zone. 202-737-0002 if you live in the pacific time sons. we also will get questions from the audience. it will show you political ads from 1964. you remember this campaign. how did lyndon johnson run against barry goldwater? was his tactic? >> rottenness. he ran a very smart campaign. he made barry goldwater the issue as opposed to the issues being the issue. the barry goldwater was painted as a crazy person. there were things put out by the johnson campaign that some

groups of psychiatrists and a america came out with a statement that barry goldwater was mentally ill. some of you probably remember that. the nuclear bomb commercial which only aired one time. it got a lot of attention. it was designed by bill morris actually. it was a totally do the guy in kind of campaign. >> it is important to realize the nuclear stuff did not come out of nowhere. in his book he made a strong argument that a craven fear of death had crept into the american psyche. people were so afraid of nuclear war that they did not want to confront the soviet union. there was a good reason people were afraid to can be to

confront the soviet union all out war would have meant the end of civilization itself. it frees people out that if we are afraid of going to war with the soviet union, we are on a path to surrender. that was a genuinely frightening notion, especially after the cuban missile crisis when people came within hours of armageddon itself. he did have some very unconventional ideas about the necessity of confronting the soviet union had on militarily pierre >> will talk a little later on about the iconic daisy @. we have put together some 1964 adds to get a sense of the issues and personality of that campaign. >> this particular fought only brings in a serious crisis.

even in the hands of a man who has proven himself responsibly. but for president johnson on november 3. >> the people ask barry goldwater. >> i have a question for mr. goldwater. we keep hearing about hot wars, cold war, and brushfire wars. i have an older brother who is serving in the armed forces. i want to know what people do to keep us out of a worker >> let me assure you here and now, i have said that in every corner of the land and i will continue to say it, a cold water administration will mean much -- once more that the present policy of strength groupies that was the hallmark of the eisenhower administration. it served the cause of freedom and avoided the word during the last republican administration. it will do so again. we are the party of preparedness and the party of peace. >> in your heart, you know he is

right. vote for barry goldwater. >> on october 24, 1963, barry goldwater said the nuclear bomb is merely another weapon. merely another weapon? vote for president johnson. the stakes are too high for you to stay home. >> graft! swindle! juvenile delinquency! crime! riots! hear what barry goldwater has to say about our lack of moral leadership. >> the leadership of this nation has a clear challenge to go to work effectively and go to work immediately to restore proper respect for law and order in this land and not just prior to

election day either. america's brightnesses witness of her people. let this generation make a new market for that greatness. what this generation set a standard of responsibility that will inspire the world. >> and your heart, you know he is right. but for barry goldwater. >> you look back at those campaigns from 1964, your reaction? >> a lot of different thoughts come to mind when i see that a re including how many of these commercials inspired modern-day political commercials. what i take away is the slogan "in your heart, you know he is right." i think the american people proved that 15 years later when they elected ronald reagan when he campaigned on an identical platform but with different packaging and a little bit more loss.

this messaging -- you were talking about with the soviet union and how barry goldwater had it too much bravado and it was gearing people. that is what ronald reagan won on and one with. i think that speaks a lot about the timing and what is happening socially when you are campaigning and how important that is and how it compliance is whether or not you get through with your ideas. >> two very different approaches. a different tactic by the cold water campaign tour >> i think about how embarrassingly atrocious they were. the barry goldwater team or not very professional for all kinds of interesting reasons. barry goldwater wanted to have people and brought him he felt comfortable with. he hired his arizona friends who were not national political professionals. the lead in johnson

advertisements for made by an advertising agency. it produced one of barry goldwater the barry ads which is in talking to eisenhower. it was a total bust. is that i will never give to this campaigned again. this guy's name was shocked list in its chain. he has passed away. -- chuck. he said i never had a lot of experience with tv. he said he never watched tv. it was the barry goldwater campaign. >> we are going to be showing during the course of this evening some of the documentary that you have put together -- some of the original work. he worked with barry goldwater how long to get this put together? >> i think specifically on the process probably six months. >> was there but thing you did not know about barry goldwater that you learned in putting this together? >> his language. [laughter]

>> elaborate. >> he has a very colorful language. i was going to tell a story, but i really have to clean it up. i will tell the story. i will clean it up. one of the last times i was with him, i walked into his living room and he was sitting in an barca lounger watching tv. i said, how are you doing? he looked at me and said -- here is the clean up part -- the myng racoons are s'ing in fireplace. people did not know but we have recons in the desert. a mother raccoon had climbed up on its roof and come down the chimney. what you call the thing in the fireplace? he gave birth to a litter of raccoons.

the raccoons were doing their business so to speak in the fireplace. that was his comment. >> on that note, let's go to martin from texas. we look at the life and career of barry goldwater and his 1964 presidential bid. >> good evening. the reason i am calling in on veterans day. i happen to be a retired captain from illinois. i like to tell my friends not so much the history of how many times i met barry goldwater accidentally but i was first influenced being a democratic can man from illinois where my cousin became the supreme court justice, head of state of illinois, attorney-general.

i will not go on. it was a world war ii texas a &m colonel in the air force -- excuse me, army and later airforce that influenced me to vote for barry goldwater. interestingly enough, i like to say to my texas friends, i am one of the few guys left that remembers on monday hearing fdr when i was 7 years old give the day of infamy speech. i ran into barry goldwater a couple of times in a little restaurant that he looked on connecticut avenue. one time i was there my boss to happen to be a civilian world war ii pilot, i introduced barry goldwater to my boss. my boss said, why did you introduce me to the senator? i said, he knows another robert stafford. he got such a kick out of this. how long have you known barry goldwater?

i said i have only met him a couple of times in the rest of. anyway, the man was a fantastic individual. the only time i went to the senate's was when barry goldwater was presiding. the sky was a beautiful man. one last memory is, i went to wright patterson air force base, happen to be going there on business. my wife and young son were there. i said, why don't you go down to the museum. that was the date barry goldwater and jimmy stewart the met -- dedicated the first wing of the museum. they both came by and check in with my wife and son. i wished i had had that experience to meet the other general jimmy stewart. anyway, i wanted to share that. what a wonderful man he was. >> thank you for the call.

he was a pilot. he was a ham radio operator. he took a lot of pictures. >> it is important to recognize that a lot of powerful rich people -- barry goldwater which barry goldwater was -- used their power to get out of military service. he used his power to get into the military. he was a pretty old guy. he took on duty in a very dangerous air route. they called it the aluminum trail because so many planes went down. he has this fascination with flying the latest military hardware. one time in 1964 he had this very sensitive meeting with lyndon johnson and about how they would handle the issue of race riots. london johnson spent hours of preparing. there was an entire memo that was going to guide his incredibly delicate ago seasons. the meeting lasted 15 seconds

and then barry goldwater was like, when do i get to try this new plan that is coming out? "let's go back to the campaign. it was a landslide for lyndon johnson. why such a disparity? was barry goldwater misunderstood in the campaign? >> a lot of reasons. first of all, people were terrified of the prospect of nuclear war. people -- lyndon johnson was dishonest on issues like the and not. there was a bumper sticker that showed up the next year, and said if i voted for barry goldwater there would be a war in vietnam. i voted for barry goldwater, and there was. his ideological time had not come. also, i mentioned the atrocious

campaign he ran. i found a memo that inspired the the research staff. i found a formal letter they sent out to political science professors and every state. it said, dear prof., please send us any books or pamphlets about the political situation in "insert state here." this was not a professional operation. >> i am a retired cpa. i have lived in central phoenix for 53 years. as a person who knew barry goldwater and worked with him in the community, i knew him to be a man of impeccable integrity and who is ticket -- dedicated to the proposition of personal responsibility. when he ran for president, it seemed to me from my perspective that the pundits you mentioned earlier went out of their way

to print and broadcast atrocious and a dishonest statements about him. there is a national magazine to this day i do not take because of the things they said about barry goldwater that were out right and true. my question is, why did the national press and so many prominent people go out of their way to be so vindictive against a man who based upon what has already been said was going to lose? >> i would set a couple of things. a lot of his followers were very frightened. you can charge that to barry goldwater or you can say that was not his fault. he did not like to distance himself from people who were devoted to him. he also have to understand the context of the times. fascism and nazism was a living memory for just about every adult. the idea of people getting together with such rage against

liberals. when barry goldwater did a very famous speech at the 1960 convention in which she said, conservatives, let's grow up. recanted this party back. he said we need to defeat the democrats working for the destruction and this nation. passions were very high. political passions of that magnitude were greatly feared. he was kind of caught up in that in an unfair way. had to deal with the context of the belief that if people -- darker angels were allowed to bring rain in the political system, we but not be able to control the consequences. this was a time, of course, when a civil rights terrorism in places like mississippi. people were burning down for it -- people were burning down churches. people were assassinating civil rights workers.

people were saying why is it in a place like mississippi where all of this stuff is going on was voting 87% for barry goldwater? >> >> he did vote against it. we'll go to george joining us from manassas, virginia. welcome to "the contenders" program and our look at barry goldwater. >> thank you very much. thanks for doing this show. my parents volunteered for barry goldwater. my question to y'all was he more of a libertarian? or more of a serve? there is a difference if you look at it. >> dr. olson? >> well, you're right in it there with that question. liz book was called "the conscience of a conservative." she felt like he was a

conservative, that he was a true conservative who understood that this nation was founded on the concept of constitutionally limited government, and that was true in all spheres of life, that you couldn't pick and choose where you would have government involvement. if it wasn't in the constitution, then it wasn't constitutional and therefore the government shouldn't be involved. so today, i mean there are a lot of libertarians that wear that man tell. a lot of different folk miss the tea party movement and candidates for president. i won't be the one to define him as a libertarian or conservative. he used the term conservative, and i think that what he stood for was as close to what the founding fathers stood for as any prominent person in our history. >> this book, what personality

came through from barry goldwater? what did you learn how to who he was as a person? >> i think what people have been saying, that he was a guy who shot from the hip and he didn't care what people thought of him. you know, much to his detriment often. people talk about him as an honorable man. but by the same token, i think ideologically he could be very naive. so i mentioned the civil rights terrorism that was going on in mississippi. the fact that people were being shot in cold blood for doing things like helping people register to vote. he never denounced that. he said his appeal to people of the south was i'm not going to as an arizonan tell people in mississippi what they should do. when civil rights are being that egregiously violated, i think there's a kind of which side are you on question. so i think that his heart was in the right place.

he believed he was doing the right thing. but i think he had a certain myopia when it came to a real ordeal that he avoided at that time. >> i want f talk about the libertarian conservative. you have to look in the context of his time. i wouldn't be surprised if during his life, and certainly while he was in the senate, he probably never heard the word libertarian. that wasn't even a word. that was heard of at the time. i call him a small l libertarian, because he basically believed in freedom of choice as he came later in his career after politics. he was outspoken in favor of gay rights. a woman's right to choose. all sorts of things like that.

and some of my friends would say oh, senile and he became a big liberal in the end. he changed. he didn't change. his philosophy was always. it's up to you as an individual to have the right to decide, whether it was about gay rights or abortion rights or labor unions, the whole thing from the 50's where he's totally misunderstood, i might note. he was a small l libertarian. today we have, you know, all sorts of politicians and presidential hopefuls running around talking about libertarian, libertarian this and that. >> you've done a perfect job of setting up this next piece. to give you a sense of the personality and style of barry goldwater. >> he talks so fast. you know, sitting there trying to listen to you reminds me of

trying to read "playboy" magazine with my wife turning the pages. [laughter] >> i happen to think i'm in a pretty tough race. i'm spending the money that i legally can. that's the answer. in fact, it's a stupid question, if you don't mind my saying so. >> i'll read the record. >> i never said that airplane wouldn't fly. >> you said you wouldn't. >> people all over the country keep talking about legalized gambling. and i thought we already had it. it's called election day. [applause] >> i now realize what it takes to be a president. it helps to have a brother sent

to the gas station drinking beer all day. when i was campaigning many that razor-thin election in 1964, i should have told everyone that dean was my brother. [laughter] >> you wanted to jump in earlier. >> he actually pioneered what would become social conservatism. he gave a very sharp speech about the moral decay of nation. it was mormon tabernacle in salt lake city. but he also used some of that salty language that we need to censor when he referred to the christian rights. jerry follow will, said in 1981

that all good christians should be very concerned about sandra day o'connor. if i may, he said all good christians should kick jerry followill in the ass. >> paul, you're on. >> i was just curious to know what your panel thinks. how would he have handled vietnam differently than lyndon johnson did? would he have escalated the war, or have seen it as a civil war between the knot and south vietnamese? >> thanks for the question. >> whether he would have been successful or not, i don't know. but i was of that generation. vietnam war under lyndon johnson was gradualism.

we're going to tighten the screw and eventually they're going to give up. yeah right. i think if barry had been president, and i'm not saying it would have been a good move or a bad move. i'm not sure. but i think he would have come in with with what later became the co-lynn powell doctrine. if you're going to go to war, you have to go with the attite that you want to win it in the next hour. that's his attitude. then he said we lost the war in vietnam for one reason. the politicians tried to run the war. in his quote. and politicians don't know their ass from a hot rock about running a war. that was his quote. i think he would have taken a far more aggressive approach to it, as compared to johnson's gradualism, which dragged out almost as long as our current

wars. >> what kind of a president would he have been? >> barry would have been something we don't see too often today. i think he would have been a very honest president. i think he would have been very candid as he was his whole life. that was the way he campaigned how he was after office. i think that candor is something that people loved about barry goldwater and it's one of the reasons that so many people sought out barry goldwater, even after he was in office and he was so well-respected and liked by so many people. because you knew with barry goldwater where you stood. he always put his principles first. he kind of had a tenure to

sometimes messaging and what people might think. and he put his principles before partisanship, before party, before politics. it's hard to say whether he would have been able to work with congress that way. but it's an exercise that i would have liked to have seen. >> we are in week 10 of "the contenders" series. we are in phoenix, arizona. we have an audience here as well. we'll get another question right up front. >> thank you. kevin lane. i recall barry was interviewed in the 1980's when russia had just gone into afghanistan. his quote was he had been in those hills and a right-minded goat would not wander into those hills. he forecasted that russia would lose. and obviously, we're quite bogged down in afghanistan. so my question to the panel is maybe some other examples of his

wisdom in his life as far as being ahead of his time. >> you're shaking your head. >> i think that is a great question and goes back to what kind of a president would he have been, and one of the things we know he would have done differently is he would not have vastly expanded the welfare state in america. he was fighting against that. he said there were all kinds of federal programs that were unconstitutional that needed to be repealed. he was unabashed about that. he certainly did not agree with the levels of taxation that we had then, let alone the levels of taxation that we have now. he was very against the type of progressive taxation that was put into place and has become more and more predominant. he felt like taxation should be minimal and fair per person, so if you give 10%, i give 10%. rick gives 10%. rick is going to pay 90%, you're not going to pay anything. so those are some major

differences. also, since that time, and certainly lyndon johnson worked on this as well, but this vast expansion of government into all of these social arenas, including education, for which there is no constitutional authority. all of those things are things that barry goldwater bar would have fought hard against. >> let's go back to where your book begins and talk about his influence here in arizona as he tried to build the republican party in the late 1940's. >> it's a fascinating story. it was a democratic state. when he ran for the senate, i think that there were 92 members of the lower house. it might have been 96, and two of them were democratic. he came from a republican family, his mom was a americanner. she was a republican. -- a mevener. she was a republican. also, for the new defense industries that were opening up in arizona. >> and before he entered

politics, he did what? >> he was an executive at the family department store. he was actually, interestingly enough, we talk about him being a straight-shooting guy. he was actually the marketing guy for the department store. but he -- a guy named eugene polian moved to phoenix and he was a newspaper publisher. he was actually dan quayle's father-in-law, and he really wanted to help build a republican party, and also build a nonpat syrian city government to build up what was a corrupt town. barry goldwater was involved in both. in 1950, he was the campaign manager for a guy named howard pyle, who ran for governor, and being barry goldwater, he flew howard pyle around the state in his plane. he would descend like a bronze god to these little towns and people would say wow, which one's the candidate? but here's the thing. when he ran for senate, he decided that he would run for senate by building a republican party. so he recruited people for every office in the state.

someone said why are you qualified to run for senate in arizona? he was such a first citizen of arizona, his answer was i can call 10,000 people in the state by their first name. he build the republican party in arizona. >> and i'm going to call on you for just a moment, because you remember going to the goldwater department store. >> correct. when i first came to arizona in 1970, i worked for the old adams hotel, which was in downtown, and i bought a bathing suit at the goldwater department store on central avenue. and at the time, you talk about him being in marketing, they gave you with every purchase a little vile of water that has gold flakes in it. and everybody that had flown in from texas to buy that hotel all when i went back to the hotel all ran down and bought a bathing suit so they could get a vile of water with gold flakes in it.

so he was good at marketing. >> i just wanted to comment about the 1952 election. barry ran against ernest mcfarland, the majority leader of the united states senate at that time. he raised money for him and all that. barry didn't like or was upset with harry truman, which is ironic today because what former president was barry most like, harry truman, actually. but barry told me many times, he says i ran for president, i knew i didn't have a chance in hell of winning. but even in the senate, he didn't think he had a chance of winning that 1952 senate race. at all. so maybe he was building a republican party. he had been on the city council for two years and then he sort of decided to run against harry

truman in most senses. but he didn't. he was not some big political organizer who said let's build a republican party here. it was sort of natural. but it wasn't like he had some big plan to do that. he was just running thinking he didn't have a chance in hell of winning. >> well, we came across some early film of senator barry goldwater after he was elected to the senate. but before coming to washington, d.c. let's look. >> speaking of washington, where you're going, there is a great deal of talk on the part of the republicans doing the campaign about communism in washington and the mess in washington. do you anticipate finding anything like that when you take your seat in the senate? >> well, i don't know. i can't say. i think that there must be communism in washington, but i would hate to stand up and say there is without knowing more about it. >> let me put it this way, is

there any fear or concern about communism and about the so called mess in washington among the people who voted for you out in arizona? >> i think the fear of communism is one of the underlying reasons for the success of the republican party in this election, all over the country. >> now that the republican party is in, do you think there will be any letting down of this concern, any complacency on the part of the people who voted for you? >> i think there's already happened. >> in what way? >> i am amazed to walk around new york to find in my own communities -- well, general eisenhower has been elected. the new deal has been thrown out. we can go back to our work the same as usual. and as always happens in politics, the man who benefits the most from good government goes on with the least interest in it, and that's mr. average citizen. >> are you going to do anything to point out the need for continuing concern over the situation in washington? >> i'll never be quiet about it.

>> from 1952, never be quiet, that became his mantra as senator and candidate in 1964. who helped him win the 1952 race? >> he had a very slick operator, a name familiar to arizona in steven shadic. he wasn't necessarily the most favored guy. he once wrote a book on "how to win an election." he would do things like -- they sent out 50,000 postcards all hand signed by volunteers from barry. he would do things like -- he said if the situation is profishes, you can get millions of people to vote for someone who has the absolute opposite ideology that they do. so he was a very tough campaign manager. >> we have a question here in the audience. please introduce yourself and go ahead. >> good evening. my name is richard muser.

i was 16 months old when we move to arizona, so i claim to be a native. it's a pleasure to hear the information about senator goldwater from so many experts. the reason i am here is because in the second grade, i met a gentleman named bill mccuban and we have been friends since then. in 1964, i was a lowly specialist fourth class in the army in fort benning, georgia. i wasn't old enough to vote at that time because arizona was 21 and i was only 20. when i listened to the senator discuss using low yield nuclear weapons in vietnam, it made sense to me as a military person, and it made sense to a lot of my fellow soldiers at the same time. the point that the johnson

campaign exaggerated, the impact of using these huge hiroshima bombs was a total exaggeration. he was an air force man. he knew what low yield meant and what it would do. and my question is what was wrong with the term low yield that i believe i only heard it once or twice. >> rick, you wrote about that in the book. >> yeah, i actually talked to one of the physicists that design some of those low yield nuclear weapons. he said it was absolutely insane to believe that you could contain the explosions from those weapons. so i'm not so sure that it's true. >> i want to comment, only because dick music brought this up. we grew up in the same neighborhood over by 25th drive north of thomas road.

in about 1950 through 1954, that period, my father would wake me and my brothers up at 4:00 in the morning on a couple of occasions. we would go up on to the roof of our house and sit facing north. my dad had his watch and he would tell us there's one minute, 30 seconds. and we would see nuclear atomic bombs explode at the test sites aboveground, nuclear bombs exploding on the test sites in nevada, wh . . . he few people alive today who's ever seen a nuclear bomb explode. maybe some of you have, too. hopefully nobody else ever will again. but this was a ritual, we'd watch the nuclear bombs going off in nevada. the point is, i thought why are

we dropping nuclear bombs on nevada? i thought they were on our side. [laughter] but realizing that whether it was 250 or 300 miles away to those test sites. it would light up. it's like summer flashlight thing, if you know what that means, except it the light would stay in the air longer tham summer lightning. -- than summer lightning. wow, that's 300 miles away. think about that. that kind of thing is what contributes to the great fear of the soviet union and nuclear war. >> let me put a domestic issue on the table. organized labor and the legislative record that senator goldwater had. >> extremely important in barry goldwater's rise. of course, arizona became the first right to work state, the circle that he was in, his friends, people like dennis mc kitchle, he was the labor lawyer

for the big mining company. he argued before the supreme court. the idea that fighting labor power was essential to conservative politics was absolutely part of what barry goldwater was all about. he basically rose to national prominence in the late 1950's on two kind of wings. the first was he gave a speech attacking dwight eisenhower for a big budget, which he called squander bus spending and the siren song of socialism. the other was there was a big labor hearing in the late 1950's run by senator mcclellan. and it was meant to take on jimmy hoffa's corruption. barry goldwater kept on interrupting. he would say things like well i would rather have jimmy hoffa stealing my money than walter rutha stealing my freedom. walter rutha was head of the

united auto workers, who pioneered like the automatic cost of living increase. he was fighting to make the operations and corporations much more transparent. he was the most political aggressive labor leader in history. by taking on sbun like walter rutha, businessmen flocked to barry goldwater as their savior. these were the guys, these businessmen were the people who ended up organizing the group that under barry goldwater's nose without him being involved at all put together a conscience of conservative and first put him forward as a presidential candidate. >> can i disagree with what he said? >> sure. >> my experience with barry and interviewing him, he wasn't -- i'm convinced he wasn't against unions. i mean, the small libertarian thing.

he said many times in our shows, to join a union or not join a union, it's their personal voice. he was most vociferous about corruption in the unions and he really didn't like the -- what do you call it? the closed shop, where you had to join a union in order to have a job. >> doesn't like weak unions. >> well, -- >> i'll build on what you're saying there. i think that's absolutely correct. >> it's 2-1. >> he believed that unions were an expression of human freedom. if you joined them voluntary. he believed wholeheartedly in freedom of association. he thought that was great if you wanted to join. what he didn't believe in is what unionism has become, which is compulsory, forced membership. and that was something that he vehemently opposed. so yuff a situation today where they're trying to take away the right to vote by secret ballot when you're forming a union.

that was something that he opposed. there was the issue of -- what was his other big issue -- >> right to work. >> yeah, right to work. where they were making membership compulsory and it was a condition of employment, which he said that is against everything we believe in as americans. he fought for right to work laws in the states. but he didn't oppose the idea of associating unions. he opposed this idea of what unions have become, which is forcing people to do things against their will, completely contrary to everything that barry goldwater believed. >> marvin has been waiting. we'll go to him next in los angeles. >> thank you for your program. i'm wondering if barry goldwater were alive today with his life span of points of view, could he get the nomination of the republican party? that's the first part of my question. and number two, based on the

extreme right wing state of some leaders in arizona politics, as in the election last tuesday were jerry lewis defeated a leader in the senate, how would barry goldwater have stood in the ideas of the current plan party in the state of arizona? thank you very much. >> thank you. so two points. first, could barry goldwater get the nomination today? >> no, because he would have been vetoed by the christian rights. i'm looking over some of these quotes. they're stunning. this is what he said in 1981. can anyone look at the carnage in iran, the bloodshed in northern ireland and the bombs bursting in lebanon and question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of states? he believed very firmly by the end of his political career i mean, he believed very firmly by the time -- by the end of his political career that people who enter politics from a religious motivation are so impassioned

and so impervious to compromise that it made the give and take necessary for politics impossible. which is kind of ironic because in 1964, you know, extremism and defense of liberty is no vice and pursuit of justice is no virtue, that was what he was accused of at the time. but he did seem to come to an extremely firm and extremely passionate notion. he thought that was a violation of the separation of the church and state. >> let me begin with the first sentence in the first chapter, barry goldwater said, quote, i have been much concerned with so many people today with concerned instincts feel compelled to apologize for them. he goes onto say president nixon at the time and president eisenhower. >> this book i think to this day remains the best statement of what it means to be a conservative in this country. he is so clear.

and i think earlier on you'd used the word simple. and i think for me -- and those principles are beautifully outlined in that book. as just a good of read today. >> as an author and writer i have to give credit to the guy who actually wrote the book, barry goldwater might have read it, but he definitely wasn't involved in the production of the book. which is a fascinating story that i tell in my book. >> let's go to the 1960 convention. i'll come back to you, i promise. >> okay. >> as he spoke to the delegates at the republican convention, which nominated vice president richard nixon. >> as an american who loves this republic, and as a member of the senate, i am committed to the republican philosophy and to the

republican candidates. it is my belief the people of this land will return a republican administration to office in 1960. and i shall work to that end. [ applause ] >> that again is mrs. goldwater. >> but i might suggest in all seriousness that you and i will not have discharged our full responsibility unless we also return an effective republican congress. i would not imply that our party is a repository of all virtue, that only republicans can see the truth, that only republicans serve noble motives. i must insist that those in control of the democrat party through their platform have announced their total commitment to what i regard as a lopsided concept of man which puts americans in a shameful condition of ever lasting

dependence upon the state. [ cheers and applause ] i have visited the people in the cities and towns and states of our nation, and i can tell you that the men and women of america face the future with courage. they're eager to accept their responsibilities. they are determined to work and sacrifice to defend our freedom. it's our task as delegates to this 1960 republican convention to make certain the american voter is provided with an opportunity to make a meaningful choice between the two philosophies competing today for acceptance in our world. the philosophy of the stomach, or the philosophy of the whole man.

>> bill mccune, as you watch the stage, how did that set his bid in 1964? >> well, it fed red meat basically to the conservative movement basically. he ended his speech saying, conservatives, grow up, get to work. i think that's the whole last line of his speech there. he was -- and not again, i mean he wasn't who's that republican guy who ran campaigns the last few years -- >> cakarl rove? >> yeah, he wasn't a karl rove saying let's organize and that kind of thing at all. but he had feelings let's get to work, let's take this back, let's do something, you know, for conservative movement as it were. he had no use for nixon, especially later. and probably no use for rockefeller other than they were probably friendly.

but ideologically was saying let's do this. >> my senior thesis in 1971 on the press treatment of the goldwater presidential campaign and i had a good fortune to spend a full day to interview the author theodore white at his home in manhattan. he had vivid memories of the weeks he spent on the campaign trail with goldwater in preparation for the 1964 installment in his famous series, the making of the president. white told me he'd come away from the tour with great admiration for goldwater and with contempt for the liberal media that he was a part of and that he thought was doing so much to demonize goldwater and distort or ignore the case goldwater was trying to present to the people. white told me goldwater tried earnestly to lecture the people about the dangers of concentrating more power in washington and what the proper limits of federal involvement in

race relations should be, especially in so-called public accommodations, the specific issue that led to his opposition to the civil rights bill that year. white also said that when goldwater eventually came to fear that discussing civil rights issues further on the campaign trail might worsen racial tensions, he met with president johnson and the two agreed to take those issues out of their campaigns. white said the agreement really cost goldwater a lot of votes among working class whites and was one of the most selfless acts white had ever seen a politician engage in. one last thing white told me how dismayed he'd been when he got back to new york after his goldwater interval. he said his liberal media friends viewed him as though he were a jew escaped from a nazi death camp. white insisted what a good man and worthy candidate goldwater was. thought you'd want to know. >> thank you for the call. sharing your story. dar si olsen.

>> it's really interesting on the civil rights issue. i think barry did get a bum rap from the media and continues to do so today they talk about his civil rights record and how he didn't vote for the 1964 act, or he didn't speak out enough. so really he must not have had that in his heart. and that couldn't have been further from the truth about who barry was. in the goldwater department store they had integrated that department store long before anybody else had done that. he really did have a color blind heart. anybody you mean will tell you that. one of the greatest stories that i love about that relates to this -- and we don't know if it's true or not. i was actually talking to his son barry jr. and said i don't know if it's hit's true, but th way it goes he went to a very fancy golf course in bel air and

wanted to play golf and they said you can't play here because you are jewish. he responded by saying, you know, i'm only half jewish, do you think i could play nine holes? >> steve, let me say something about civil rights real quick. barry goldwater and city council members integrated the airport in phoenix which had been seg regated before. after world war ii the department of defense asked barry goldwater to organize the arizona air national guard which hadn't existed before. he said i'll do it on one condition, that it's racially integrated and they gave in and said fine. in the senate he voted, he voted for civil rights legislation consistently through the 50s and into the early 60s. the only one he voted against was that one and he voted

against it for one reason. and that was because of a thing in there called the mrs. murphy law which would have said that if mrs. murray wants to rent her spare bedroom out that she couldn't do -- couldn't disrim nate. he has a long history of pro-civil rights activity. >> let me ask you about the relationship between barry goldwater and john kennedy. they both came to the senate together in 1952. >> yes. and they had affection for each other. in fact, when barry goldwater was kind of rising as a national star in the early '60s, he was very much compared to kennedy, this charismatic famous guy and story they talked about campa n campaigning together, riding the same campaign trail -- plane and debating each other lincoln and douglas style. this is often a testament to more specific time. i often thought he was thinking cynically and thought if i could get this guy on a platform and force him to kind of mouth his

what were then very unpopular views, i could wipe the floor with him. i'm not sure it was this magnanimous act on kennedy's part. >> history changed in dallas november 22nd, 1963, following the assassination of president kennedy. senator barry goldwater said this. >> well, he was a very decent fellow. he was a gentleman. he's a kind of an antagonist that i've always enjoyed. he would fight like a wildcat for his points and his principles, but there was never anything personal about it. i imagine that i have debated as a president more on the floor of the senate than any other man. and it never affected our friendship. we had some rather violent arguments in sessions of committee. it never effected our friendship. that's the kind of a man that you respect. it's the kind of a man you like to work with in politics.

>> and so after the assassination and before he entered the race in '64, how ambivalent was he about running? >> he was ambivalent but leaning towards running. and one of the reasons he was so ambivalent after the assassination was because he knew that the public would be so longing for stability and that the idea of having three presidents within the space of one year would just be too much for people to bear. >> a question here in the room. >> greg miller from phoenix. i had the good fortune to be involved in the formation of the goldwater institute, and as a result of that i want to make a comment and a question. one of senator goldwater's unique features was he never sought publicity. that made him unusual for a politician. when we were trying to form the organization, even with the persuasion of senator kyle, congressman shaddy, representative skelly and

others, he was still reluctant. and even after we got going we wanted to have an award in his name and he was reluctant again to step forward and have the award named after him. he's unusual in so many ways. my question is, is there anybody to compare him with? i mean, we think of ronald reagan, maybe somebody like bob taft, is there anybody else we can compare barry goldwater to? >> who would like to take that one? >> not alive today. >> well, you know, i would say there are two people. i mean, ron paul and ronald reagan. i think he compares to ron paul in that ron paul is a very straightforward speaker who doesn't really care what the press thinks. but he just speaks from his heart about his ideas. it is his downfall. it was part of barry's downfall. but also reagan-like in that the core of his ideas that barry ran

on reagan later implemented. but he just had -- you know, reagan had a smoother style. he was mr. hollywood. not only did he not have a tenure, but he had that wonderful smile and people loved him and he made people laugh. but he ran basically on the same ideas that goldwater did and brought over, you know, won in a landslide. so sometimes when rick says people didn't like barry's ideas or weren't ready for them, you know, i don't really think that is a very fair assessment. i think that the assassination played the key role at that time. i think the poor messaging that barry did, was a factor, but i don't think it was the ideas. i think it was the timing and the way that the ideas were sold. >> can i speak to a favorite politician who i think is in this mold? i think the liberal congresswoman in this mold januafrom illinois. >> bruce is joining us from

california. welcome to "the contender". >> thanks for this program. it's great. i'm a liberal who's only voted for one republican in my life and that was barry goldwater. i guess my attitude at the time, kennedy was such a young new generation, articulate. and johnson seemed to be so much the old politics. two things i wanted to mention, haven't heard here, a choice not an echo was i thought one of his big themes. and then the other point i wanted to make was there was a book called none dare call it treason that came out about the same time and this was basically john birch society. we had the birchers then and we have the birthers now. but barry never separated himself from that group. and the last point i wanted to make was the night before the election reagan came onto boost

goldwater's candidacy and allow the comment afterward was maybe we got the wrong man. >> well, thanks for the call. we'll talk about ronald reagan in about 20 minutes and we'll show you just a portion of what he spoke toward the end of the '64 campaign. but to the caller's first point, your thoughts. >> about none dare call it treason, yeah, i mean, this was scab rous stuff. this was a book arguing that every setback that america ever had in domestic or foreign policy was because there were secret communists infiltrating every part of the government. 20 million copies of this book were circulated. rich businessmen would buy up thousands and thousands of copies and kind of hand them out everywhere. he's right. barry goldwater didn't denounce this stuff. he would rationalize it by saying people know that there's something wrong out there and this is pushing in the right direction. and maybe i disagree with it, but he never denounced the john

birch society. he said some of my best friends in phoenix are part of it. and that, i think, was one of his achilles heel. i mean, he really did -- i think he humored extremists. >> he's been quoted so often and you used the quote earlier extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, of course that came from the 1964 republican convention. we want to show you that but put it in context of what he said before and afterward. here is barry goldwater accepting the republican nomination. >> anyone who joins us in all sincerity, we welcome. [ applause ] those who do not care for our cause, we don't expect to enter our ranks in any case.

and let our republicanism so focused and dedicated not be made fuzzy and futile by unthinking and stupid labels. >> i wou i would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. [ cheers and applause ]

>> thank you. thank you. thank you. let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. the beauty of the very system we republicans are pledged to restore and revitalize, the beauty of this federal system of ours is in its reconciliation of diversity with unity. we must not see malice in honest differences of opinion. and no matter how great so long as they are not inconsistent with the pledges we have given

to each other in and through our constitution. our republican cause -- >> how did that speech resonate among the republican electorate and the voters at large? >> well, richard nixon wrote in his memoirs actually at that very moment when he heard him say extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, he literally felt sick to his stomach. the reason for that was they had an incredibly divisive convention and barry goldwater won most delegate votes by far because they organized it so well his grassroots insurgency. but many people in the party felt like they had stolen the party. that the republican party was a moderate party and a republican -- a conservative had won by hook and by crook. and what you were supposed to do, your role in acceptance speech was to bind the wounds

together of a divisive campaign. so people could unite and go forward. instead, he seemed to be pushing in people's faces his acceptance of this notion of extremism which in the context of the time meant things like the john birch society, it meant things like the southern segregationists who are changing their democratic affiliation to republican affiliation. so the public itself also in the context of this kennedy assassination in which the idea that the bottom had dropped out of america's civility and people longing so much for normalcy, it really just seemed like something once again that was frightening, that was strange, that was perverse. and his numbers went way down. and by the way a week after that there was a terrible riot in harlem. so it just increased people's sense that somehow barry goldwater was associated with these very frightening forces in

american life. and when people were rioting in harlem, people were saying things like, well, they're shooting black people, this goldwater stuff is happening. so just starts the paranoia unfairly surely that surrounded barry goldwater in this atmosphere in which people really felt that the springs were being loosed in america's consensus. >> matthew is joining us, miami, florida. good evening. welcome to the program. >> caller: good evening. thank you for taking my call. in 1986, congress passed a scholarship named after barry goldwater. and i don't know if the irony ever escaped them based on what i heard from the panel about their goldwater ideology that a federal scholarship would go to -- if you don't know too much about this scholarship, the

story of goldwater filibustering his own scholarship but comment on his views on public education and if there's any known about his feelings about the congress awarding him this scholarship. >> thank you, matthew. darcy olsen. >> i have not heard that. certainly it would be ironic if it's true. and if it is true, it's ironic. he looked at the instituticonst. he didn't see any role in there given to the federal government to be involved in education. and he spoke out against federal involvement in education. he said i don't want the federal government to educate my children. i don't want the state government to educate my children. i want to educate my children. and i think if we can bring this up to modern times, what's so interesting and i think is a great tribute to barry goldwater is that arizona is one of the leading states in offering choices to parents school choice so people are not forced to go into government schools.

but can use some of their tax money and take that to private schools or use online tutoring, things like that. i think barry would have absolutely loved that and been crazy about that because, you know, this was something that he believed. look, at bottom he believed in freedom. and nothing is more fundamental than being able to direct how your children are educated. so certainly i would love -- do you know if the scholarship part is true? have you heard that? >> i've heard something, or i remember just after the senator died there was something about congress passed something in science and technology in his name. i can't remember what it was, whether it was a scholarship thing or -- it's vague in my mind. >> you cannot talk about barry goldwater in the 1964 campaign without bringing up the ad that you mentioned before. it aired once on september 7th, 1964, labor day monday. it aired on nbc, cbs and abc then used it as subsequent stories.

and it is infamously known as the daisy ad. >> one, two, three, four, five, seven, six, six, eight, nine. >> nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. >> these are the stakes to make a world in which all of god's children can live are to go into the dark. we must either love each other or we must die. >> vote for president johnson on november 3rd. the stakes are too high for you to stay home.

>> bill mccune, fifty years later they're still talking about this ad. why? >> well, it was devastating at the time. >> but he never mentioned barry goldwater's name. >> well, he didn't need to. keep in mind that the whole campaign up to even up to that point focused the jobs in the democrat camp focused on the word extremism, extremist, extremist over and over again. and this was just another little piece of, oh, goldwater's an extremist, he's going to get us in to nuclear wars. but i want to tell you something about that ad. that ad was written and designed by what's his name -- >> tony schwartz. >> no. >> bill moyers. >> that's not true. that's absurd. >> no, let me finish. barry goldwater in my show is on

camera. bill moyers was behind that. and he said i tried later, years afterwards, to talk to bill moyers about it and i tried to talk to him and he never returned my phone call. years went by, barry passed away. susan, his second wife, told me after -- later, she said, you know, bill moyers was in town for something not related to politics. and she had occasion to talk to him. and bill moyers said to susan, this is susan saying this, she said, bill moyers said, yeah, gee, it was a shame i tried to get ahold of barry to talk to him about that a lot of times, but we could just never meet up. which susan was implying that was baloney. >> i can state categorically having read through every memo, how the advertisements were created in 1964 that bill moyers

had nothing to do with creating the ad. >> but he was white house press secretary. >> yes. he wrote memos about the ad, and he was involved in the media strategy, but the idea he created the ad, that's a -- >> question here. >> ron, from boca and arizona, depending on the season, the title of your book is the unmaking of a consensus. and i'm interested in what makes something a consensus, what was it that was unmade and did we make a new one? >> excellent question. i think in a sense the word consensus would have to appear in quotation marks. there was a myth that after world war ii certainly since the eisenhower administration accepting the new deal as a basic template, eisenhower saying anyone who fiddled with social security would never live another political day, him expanding the welfare state in certain ways.

this idea that, you know, i might even sort of read just a classic statement of how the american consensus was thought of at the time. the dean of rutgers wrote in the magazine, partisan review, in america there are no basic disagreements between intellectuals, bankers, trade unionists, artists, big businessmen, beatniks, professional people and politicians to name a few are between the economic classes, there are no real critics, no new ideas, no fundamental differences of opinion. the idea that the western world, not just america, had converged on the idea of the welfare state as a way to organize the world was just seen as permanent. what is so fascinating to me and why i call the book before the storm, is almost immediately the 1960s gives lie to that notion. americans are at each other's throats. we're debating over the role of the state in the most

fundamental and vociferous ways. that was the american consensus. in 1964 is when we begin to see these fissures come apart. and barry goldwater is absolutely instrumental in that. >> the civil rights 1964 vote barry goldwater voted against it and became one of the issues of that campaign. >> a couple very fascinating points about that. we talk about the lyndon johnson television commercials. they had a bunch of television commercials boasting about the civil rights bill. they did not run those, because the idea of a backlash against civil rights was already present. and in california -- in the book i publish a headline in "new york times" what bash lash does not develop. so people were terrified maybe people would vote for barry goldwater because they were so terrified of blacks having civil rights. in california on the same day that lyndon johnson won by a

million votes there's also a vote for a referendum. and that referendum was on open housing. and by 1 million votes, californians voted to reject the idea of open housing, to reject a law that says you cannot discriminate on the base of race to whom you rent your home. so the idea of a backlash against civil rights was blatant at the time and became most explosive issue in american politics in the decades to come. >> so if you look at what happened in 1952 when dwight eisenhower won, but you look at the south and the impact that the civil rights vote had for democrats in 1964. >> right. >> what's the difference? >> well, of course, no one in south florida party because that was the party of the carpet backers. that was the party if you voted for the republicans and they thought toe hold they would monopolize the black vote and

all these panics about, you know, we've all seen "gone with the wind," right? and the shift began in 1964. five southern states voted for goldwater. 87% of mississippi voted for goldwater. when lyndon johnson signed the civil rights bill, he said i'm signing away the south for the democratic party for a generation. so that was one of the most profound hinges in the entire electoral alignment of the united states. the south now is a primarily republican region. and that's because conservatives led by barry goldwater decided to retreat from the idea of the federal government advancing civil rights for african-americans. >> two years after ge basically ended the program, the ge theater ronald reagan was hosting and two years before becoming governor of california, he was involved in this campaign. and we have just a portion of

the speech he delivered. it's titled "a time for choosing." late in the campaign as ronald reagan talked about the virtues of barry goldwater. >> but i think it's time we ask ourselves if we still know the freedoms that were intended for us by the founding fathers. not too long ago two friends of mine were talking to a cuban refugee, a businessman who'd escaped from castro. and in the midst of his story one of my friends turned to the other and said we don't know how lucky we are. and the cuban stopped and said, how lucky you are? i had some place to escape to. and in that sentence he told us the entire story. if we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to. this is the last stand on earth. and this idea that government is beholden to the people that it has no other source of power except to sovereign people is still the newest and most unique idea in all the long history of man's relation to man. you and i have a rendezvous with destiny. we'll preserve for our children this the last best hope of man

on earth, or we'll sentence them to take the last step into 1,000 years of darkness. we will keep in mind and remember that barry goldwater has faith in us. he has faith that you and i have the ability and the dignity and the right to make our own decisions and determine our own destiny. thank you very much. [ applause ] >> from october 22nd, 1964, what's the history behind that speech? why did he deliver it? >> well, i don't know where -- reagan, you mean? >> why did he deliver it? >> oh, okay, here's why. first off, i don't know who actually drafted the speech. he probably knows. that's okay. barry himself, i have to give a little background here. barry himself was a great extemporaneous speaker. i mean, dramatic, wonderful. but he didn't like prepared written speeches. okay? somebody wrote that speech for

barry and submitted it to him. my source on this is both bob goldwater and john shaddak and some other historian types. barry read it and said this is a great speech, but i'm not good at giving written speeches. ronny reagan could do the speech a lot better and they sent it over to ronald reagan to deliver it on tv and wherever it was. and reagan did it. and somebody said that was the beginning of reagan ending up as president, was that speech which was written for barry. >> which also led a number of california executives to coach him into running for governor in 1966. >> yeah. that was a little different. i mean he'd given similar speeches through the early '60s. and the people who had been in charge of basically handling the money for goldwater's television account were so fed up with the terrible tv commercials they basically said unless you let us

spend it the whole way, we're going to spend it the way we want to. we are going to basically sequester this money. so they kind of play hardball. and that's how they got ronald reagan on the air. and after he gave that speech, telegrams poured into the campaign. and money poured into the campaign. and people started talking about ronald reagan as a gubernatorial possibility. and david broder said the best speech he'd ever heard of since one in 1896. >> one side note the relationship in 1964 between barry goldwater and ronald reagan, was it a close relationship or more of an acquaintan acquaintance? >> well, ronald reagan vacationed in arizona. his father-in-law was a wealthy chicago physician who knew the goldwaters. and there's a whole fascinating soap opera that i wrote about in my book about how the people

around barry goldwater who were running his campaign, what they called the arizona mafia, didn't want ronald reagan to give this speech. so it's a little different because he had said things about social security that goldwater had gotten in trouble for earlier in the year. basically ronald reagan said to goldwater, why don't you listen to it, and if you object to it, we don't have to run it. and goldwater heard it, he said this is great, i don't see what the fuss is about and the rest is history. >> we'll go to dan next joining us from cambridge city, indiana. good evening. >> caller: good evening, sir. you pretty much answered my question. i was wondering what mr. goldwater thought of the way reagan gave the speech that night. and also mr. goldwater and mr. reagan and william f. buckley, did they ever have any difference of opinion as far as

conservati conservatism? or they were pretty much in accord? and with that i thank you for taking my question. >> thank you. william f. buckley actually was shut out of the goldwater campaign late in 1963 by a kind of power play by a fellow by the name of bill barudi head of the american enterprise institute. it was power politics, he leaked a story bill buckley was trying to take over the campaign. william f. buckley on several occasions said he didn't think barry goldwater would make a good president, that he wasn't ready to be president, wasn't smart enough to be president. that now ronald reagan's relationship to william f. buckley is fascinate iing, complicated. they were at logger heads at a couple major issues in history, for example the panama canal. they had a famous debate in which william f. buckley argued that the panama canal treaty in

the late '70s was a good thing. ronald reagan had basically run his 1976 campaign on the idea it was a bad thing. so these are these kind of personality clashes that any movement are going to have. >> and can i just recommend a great book for the questioner, william f. buckley, his last book published after he passed is called "flying high". >> yes. >> it is a book about barry goldwater. it is a wonderful book. one of the best books ever written about goldwater. so if that is your interest, i strongly recommend it. >> along with "before the storm," right? >> of course. >> we have a question here. go ahead. >> i have two quick questions i want the panel to address. first, i wonder whether by engaging more directly over the issue of vietnam in 1964 barry goldwater could have perhaps forced lyndon johnson to articulate history. >> get that point and follow-up on the second one.

>> there were forces trying to persuade lyndon johnson to do things in vietnam and none of them prevailed. i'm not sure that he could have had a much influence on lyndon. i don't know. i'm not an expert on that. there are some vietnam veterans in the crowd. maybe they'd know. but i don't know. >> and your second point? >> my e second point was we've heard a lot tonight about barry's consistency. in the 1996 election he endorsed bill clinton for president. i would like to speak about that endorsement. >> he was the guy who could bear grudges. and bob dole had been around a lot in republican politics. and i wouldn't be surprised if bob dole had angered him somewhere along the way. i don't know the back story behind it. i'd love to know. >> he also endorsed a woman named karen english for a congressional seat in arizona, democrat, and she won and served

one term. >> yeah, along those lines, when you ask about his consistency, one of my favorite stories actually is about that. he endorsed someone who he believed was a fiscal conservative but who was a democrat over the republican who he thought was a big spender. so the republican party chairman in arizona, this is how the story goes, called him up and said, you know, barry, you're speaking out too much. and you need to get in line. and if you don't -- you know, if you don't stop endorsing this democrat, we are going to take your name off of the republican party headquarters. and barry said to him, if you republicans don't remember the principles that we stand for, i'm going to make you take my name off that building. >> but over the years especially as he was in retirement a number of public figures, democrats and republicans, you talk about bob dole or bill clinton would come out here to meet with barry

goldwater. why? >> they admired him. >> he's one of a kind. person of integrity. they may not have agreed with him on this, that or the other issue, but he was one of a kind and you admired him. keep in mind when barry died, bill clinton, a democratic president, had the flag of the united states lowered to half staff for a day on the day of goldwater's funeral. of the opposite party. that never happened before. probably never happen again. >> one real quick point about clinton, hillary clinton being a goldwater girl in 1964. >> he had a very fascinating rehabilitation kind of in the '70s. there was an article in the "new york times" magazine in april of 1974. in 1964 he was bella, but the liberals love barry goldwater now. what it was about was about how he reviewed a lot of the unfairness that, you know, we've

been talking about. and the reconsideration centered around the fact he was being so forthright in excoriating richard nixon for his lies. >> we'll go to judy next in san francisco. welcome to the program. >> caller: thank you so much. i was raised in phoenix, and my family worshipped goldwater. we were active in his campaign. and later my brother became a libertarian and said there would never need to be a libertarian party if goldwater had just become president. and i was then later a '92 delegate to the republican convention, and there was going to be a big fight that year, a platform fight, over putting abortion in the platform. well, a week before the convention barry made a statement to the press about there was no blankty blank blank that that should be in the platform. well, when i got to the convention a week later there were all these paraphernalia tables and here was this big

button, big blue button that said barry's right. i bought that, i wore it the entire week. and to this day, this is my most prized possession because barry's still right. >> thank you for the call. darcy olsen. >> you know, that is -- i think that is a difficult issue. and i think a lot of people like to use that to call -- and i'm not saying you're calling to this, but to position barry as a libertarian. i think that they know that about 2% of the public considered themselves libertarian and they tried to marginalize him that way. but the truth is that a lot of conservatives believed that the federal government should not have any role in the question of whether or not abortion for instances is a crime. william f. buckley is a pretty strong conservative.

i don't think anybody would quibble with that. he also believed that was not the role of the federal government. but, again, marketing comes into play here, right? i mean, the way people took what barry said was not the way they took what william f. buckley said, but essentially they were saying the same thing. >> rick, you can't say enough about barry goldwater -- first point out he left the senate because his term expired, came back in 1968 and very important role in august of 1974 as he met with richard nixon two days before his resignation. what's the story? >> well, he was the guy who led a delegation of republicans. it's very simple actually. you know, impeachment is a political process. he said that you do not have the votes in the senate to win in a trial and therefore if you don't want to be the first president to be thrown out in your year by the senate, you ought to resign. and nixon took his advice, and

richard nixon resigned on august 9th, 1974. >> the relationship between the two? >> testy. barry goldwater, as i mention in this article about the liberals, you know, lionizing him, consistently throughout watergate would prod richard nixon to tell the truth. he said this is beginning to smell like teapot dome. there was a very famous showdown between barry goldwater and richard nixon at the 1960 republican convention, one of the most important kind of set pieces in conservative history in which nelson rockefeller basically threatened a floor fight unless he could dictate the terms of the republican platform. and force richard nixon to fly to new york to negotiate the terms of the platform.

it was announced in chicago where the convention was as a -- he was so mad he gave this angry speech calling it the munich of the republican party. and that was when people started demonstrating for barry goldwater at that convention to usurp the nomination from richard nixon. so ever since that point i don't think he ever really trusted -- richard nixon. >> jumping ahead to watergate of course is what brought on the resignation, barry told me, and in my show, bob goldwater reiterates after barry was dead he said the reason why barry was so angry at nixon leading up to the resignation was because, quote, nixon was a gd liar, lying about watergate. bob goldwater talks about this to some length in the

documentary. from childhood he said if we did something wrong and we told the truth, we didn't get punished. if we lied, we got punished. and there was just this very strong thing on the part of barry and bob and the others about lying. and he was so angry at nixon for lying through the watergate period that that's why he was so angry. >> edward is joining us in new orleans. go ahead, please. >> caller: this ed plancy in new orleans. in 1968 i was covering the republican convention in miami. and i was able to meet of course barry goldwater who was there. and he was extremely nice. he struck me as totally different from his national image. and i also discovered ronald reagan in the back of the news section of the auditorium being interviewed in the booth by nbc. i was the only one to see him there. and of course reagan was making noises about running for

president at that convention. and so i stood outside while he was finishing the interview, i believe it was with david brinkl brinkley. and then he came out. and by that time a whole bunch of other reporters had gathered out there. and mr. reagan came out, and i asked him a couple of questions and then these other reporters circled him, about 20 or 30 of them, and we just went as a circle with mr. reagan in the middle. and i was throwing questions over the top of him. he was very nicely yelling his answers back to my microphone. and then we went around a corner, and -- well, the tables of all the reporters and their typewriters and the whole gang of people swept into this table at the end of it knocking over a little man at his typewriter with his typewriter on the floor, all his books, i let them go, i stopped and helped this little man. and i looked into his face and it was theodore s. white.

and that stopped me right there. and he was just so -- he apologized to me actually for that. but so i got to meet three really nice people right there, barry goldwater, ronald reagan and theodore s. white. >> ed clancy, thank you for the phone call from new orleans. of course conventions were quite different in 1964 and '68. >> by the way, i do think that in the making of the president in 1964 teddy white was pretty patronizing to barry goldwater despite what the earlier caller said. the 1964 convention was angry and violent. and he mentioned david brinkley. alan brinkley, who is david brinkley's son, a professor now at columbia, told me that so kind of impassioned and angry -- violently angry at the media, the eastern establishment press, where the goldwater delegates and supporters that david

brinkley told his son alan brinkley who was a teenager at the time you are under no circumstances to wear your nbc insignia around san francisco. so that's why so that's why people were afraid of this idea of the goldwater movement as this kind of quasi fascist thing. it was a very dangerous frightening time. >> barry goldwater in his final two years in the u.s. senate before retiring and put forth ronald reagan's nomination to be -- to serve a second term and to be the republican nominee in '84. >> a month ago i sat in my den and watched the democratic national convention. speaker after speaker promised the moon to every narrow, selfish interest group in the country. but they ignored the hopes and aspirations of the largest

special interest group of all, free men and free women. so tonight i want to speak about freedom. and let me remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. >> darcy olsen, quintessential barry goldwater? >> absolutely. you know, people loved barry goldwater. and, you know, what he was expressing is, you know, akin to the, give me liberty or give me death. and, you know, in america we believe this, you know.

and i think sometimes the loss of the '64 campaign is mistakenly interpreted as an outright rejection of those ideas. and it wasn't anything of the sort. you can hear it from the cheering. you see it from the reagan revolution. you see it from the ideas being alive today. that's what the liberal press at that time wanted people to believe and in fact when he lost that campaign the "new york times," washington bureau chief james reston had said that barry goldwater not only had lost but he had lost the entire conservative cause and they were always talking about the death of conservatism. you know, that's wishful thinking. it remains wishful thinking on the part of the press. that is classic barry goldwater, and it reflects what many americans believe which is that you cannot be too passionate, too committed, or too extreme if

you want to use that word in the defense of our constitutional freedoms. >> jay is joining us from new york city. go ahead, please. >> caller: i just recently became schooled in politics because of the election with barack obama because you never felt you had a stake. i want to see the backlash regarding conservatives. i looked up people like barry goldwater, read the book, ronald reagan, you look at fox news and certain organizations, they praise these conservatives but then you look at the record, i try to wonder why african-americans do not vote for conservative, why the republican party is monolithic. it doesn't look like a diverse party. can conservatives at least understand that when you keep praising people like ronald reagan and barry goldwater all you have to do is pick up a book and their record is right there.

until you can at least be honest and say, okay, they were wrong on this, you can't say freedom and equality when a whole segment of society feels like they're alienated. i would like to take the comment off the air and thank you for taking my call. >> thank you, jay. bill. >> well, i certainly understand what the caller was saying in his views, but speaking about barry goldwater. i think more what he's referring to whether he realizes it or not is the image of barry goldwater that was, you know, put out there of being a crazy guy or a racist or whatever. which he really wasn't. you know, barry goldwater -- you can say whatever you want. barry goldwater was never a hateful person. was never a vengeful person in his handling of politics. i wish some of these ten or 12

people we have running around for president presently would adopt some of the, the niceness of barry goldwater. >> rick perlstein. >> it's important to note also that by the end of that 1964 campaign, barry goldwater did make a very important and subtle shift on his position on civil rights. he would always say and he showed it that he was an integrationist, he was for integration. that was his goal for society. but by the end of that campaign, as he was trying to win those southern states he did say our goal is neither to have an integrated society for a segregated society but to have a free society. he moved away from the idea of integration as a positive good. >> there were four debates in 1960. no debates in 1964. why? >> that was a dirty trick by lyndon johnson. in order to have a debate, you had to suspend a rule of the federal communications

commission so that every candidate, i.e. all 30 candidates including the bee keepers party wouldn't have to be on the stage and lyndon johnson kind of wired that in congress so that was impossible. he didn't want to face barry goldwater. that says something about maybe he thought barry goldwater would have been a worthy adversary. >> a question from somebody here. >> this question is for darcey. do you see the tea party movement as a resurgence of the goldwater movement? >> i definitely think that there are a lot -- the tea party, i guess -- the best way to answer it is to say it's not monolithic. all kind of people constitute the tea party and different ideas in the tea party. but i think if you look at the tea party as a group of people who have fought these gigantic bailouts in washington, they

fought the raising of the debt ceiling, they fought the federal takeover of health care, all of those things, i think barry goldwater would have been with them on. so certainly we see a lot of elements of goldwaterism coming out in some of the major pieces of what the tea party folks are working on. >> from watertown, wisconsin, franklin is on phone. we welcome you. go ahead, please. >> caller: yes. i would like to make a comment. i think if we would have elected barry goldwater as president in '64 we would have won the war in vietnam because he didn't believe in public opinion per se to guide the war. i would also like to say i think barry goldwater told mr. nixon that he could not hold the south for him or make sure the south would stay for him so they asked him to resign instead of being impeached. thank you.

>> franklin, thank you. >> the stuff about how barry goldwater could have won the vietnam war -- i mean the united states paved over the entirety of the land mass of north and south vietnam with a quarter inch of steel. somehow if we did half an inch or three quarter of inch, that's a fantasy. a pleasant one. but i think that's a glib position. >> we have just a minute or two left. did barry goldwater's views change as he got older, did he evolve? >> absolutely not. now views meaning, me meaning his basic core philosophy and the way he looked at life and looked at politics. i've had battles in op-ed pages where people said oh -- he got senile and turned liberal at the end. he did not. he was always a matter of, i

call it small l libertarian. freedom of choice. whether it was abortion issues, gay rights or any number of things. he was consistent his whole life. >> yeah. i agree with that. almost any question at any time time period in barry's life if you look at what his position was and you ask the question of was it constitutional or not, that will give the answer to what his position was. >> is that the position of this institute? 4 >> people look around today to find politicians who are as honest as barry and stand for principle and they are few and far in between. that's one of the reasons why he gave us his blessings. he knew you couldn't count on politicians to stand for principle all the time, but with american men and women supporting an organization, who believed in those ideas that you would always have a voice for freedom. >> what was the legacy of the 1964 campaign and what impact did barry goldwater have in american politic? >> the legacy of the 1964

campaign was organizational. it was the formation of organizations that became a permanent conservative movement that lost the battle in 1964. but lived to fight dozens of battles more. his legacy is to have inspired these people to become something, become something greater than themselves, inspire people who felt frustrated the course of the country to take civic action. >> the book is called "before the storm" thank you very much for joining us to darcy olsen, first of all for hosting us here at the goldwater institute. the president and ceo. we appreciate your time. >> our pleasure. >> and bill mccune, a former arizona state legislator and author and producer of a documentary of barry goldwater. >> called "barry goldwater and the american life." >> to all of you, thank you very much for being with us. and to the audience here at the

goldwater institute. we want to leave you with some of the words of barry goldwater in an interview we did with him as he was winding down his political career from the c-span archives in 1985. >> another thing i would tell young politicians coming into washington, your re-election is not going to make-or-break the united states. do the best job you can do, that's what you're here for, to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. and be honest. that's all i would tell them. >> how about the republican party leaders today? >> well, i think we have good leadership today. lord knows we spent long enough time out of office that we should have learned some things. politics goes in a circle. you'll find the liberal element running things for a while and now we find the conservative on

the way up and the conservative will run the place until he runs out of ideas and runs out of people and then the other party or even the republican party becomes a liberal party will take over. our politics in america go around in circles and i think that's great. ♪ go with goldwater ♪ go with goldwater ♪ you know where goldwater stands ♪ ♪ clap your hands ♪ go with goldwater ♪ let's go with goldwater's plan ♪ we'll have more on the life and legacy of 1964 presidential candidate barry goldwater in a moment. coming up, his republican nomination acceptance speech. and that's followed by a look at barry goldwater's impact on

america's conservation program, starting in the 1950s. american history tv primetime continues tonight with a look at the 1964 presidential campaign of barry goldwater. it begins at 8:00 eastern with the contenders. the two-hour discussion of the life and career of the republican nominee. at 10:05 p.m. eastern, barry goldwater's nomination acceptance speech and at 10:50, a look at his role in the conservation movement in the 1950s and '60s. barry goldwater accepted his party's presidential nomination at the 1964 republican national convention in san francisco. in his speech, the arizona senator outlined his commitment to conservative values and conservatism as a diverse and uniting ideology. senator goldwater lost to president johnson in the 1964

general election, winning only six states and earning less than 39% of the popular vote. this speech is just over 40 minutes and our coverage is from nbc news. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪