from the local to the -- to fight islamic terrorism. >> thank you. >> let me try to just answer in a couple of sentences the professor's challenge and maybe the kind of tradeoffs, the kind of false dichotomies i'm talking within turkey also applies to turkey's relations with the european union, relations with the u.s. and nato. because i think there we also have a mistaken tradeoff. that is, we believe that the fight against terrorism, fighting against the problems that come out of the syrian civil war necessitate turning a blind eye or being indifferent

to our ally, namely turkey's democratic deficit, rule of law deficit. we believe if turkey is to be, let's say, a transactional partner with the refugee deal, with humanitarian relief of syrians in the fight against the islamic state, then you know what, if turkey is descending more and more into authoritarianism, we can deal, because we need a strong leader. let me conclude by saying that i think our main mistake in this tradeoff is the con flix of two terms, strong and authoritarian. strong and one man. because i think history has caught us again and again and again one man rule or authoritarian rule is a -- is

actually the exact opposite of good governance. is the exact opposite of strong rule, strong leadership. so i think whether it's turkey or just any other country, could be tunisia, ultimately our transnational fight against radicalism and terrorism need to work hand in hand not only to counter security deficits but also democratic deficit. only if you combine the two, only if you stop turning a blind eye to the kind of populist extremist authoritarian and one man rule, coming up not only in the middle east but also now increasingly in also central and eastern europe then can we begin to actually make progress in these issues. >> i'll be very brief. one thing that always disturbs

me a little bit, bothers me a little bit, the use of word fighters. i said it once again. we must not call these people fighters. they are terrorists. they're isis terrorists. they're al qaeda terrorists. they're islam terrorists. the moment we call them fighters -- i know the legal distinction very well between the two words. the moment we call them fighters we are giving some kind of legitimacy to them. to their organization. to their ideology. let's try and avoid that in the public discourse and also in the private discourse.

i'll share one example, very personal example. my older son when he was a high school student, when i was in new delhi, he was going to an international school. one day we were just having a chat. he was talking about his friends. hearing the name of one of his friends, i just asked where he was from. he said, i don't know. i said, you don't know? yeah, i don't need to know. why? why are we interested about where from he is. he's my friend. doesn't even want to know from which country his friend is. forget about other elements of identity. i think that was a great learning experience for me, from my next generation. that's a very strong message. thank you.

>> thank you very much. professor wallace, you want to make a comment now as well? >> yeah, i'll be very brief, but i have to say that i also say, we have to be grateful to you and the institute for the extraordinary panels you assemble and somehow you extract from them an awful lot of ideas. just one maybe observation. one of you suggested, i think, that there was sort a consensus emerging to what has to be done. i think part of it was the requirement for democracy, rule of law, secularism, et cetera, et cetera. i certainly share that. on the other hand, there's another element. to the extent we're talking about terrorists from the muslim world, which we mostly are, i think there's something to think about islam itself. i think the professor mentioned it. the islamic world has not undergone a reformation.

point one. point two, i'm a roman catholic. one of the strengths of the catholic church is the majestyian and that's lacking in islam, in sunni islam. one of the things that's required is to think of the reformation of islam. i'm sorry that a colleague of ours has left that is a libraryian. we are having a conference in seville at the end of september in which we'll talk about the role of intellect in islam. meaning which is one of the sources of reform if it can be combined with communal consensus. i think that's awfully important. one of the things that comes from the panels in one way you can be overwhelmed, you learn so much. on the other hand, if you're a general gray, you have to fight

back and you have to win. i think that's true. of course the win here is much more subtle than the usual win. but again, i think you've extracted the best out of many of the panelists so thank you very much. >> thank you. we have a little bit of time for q&a. right there, just identify yourself right there. >> i very much appreciate the use of history to explain the current attitude of the ambitions of isis and daesh and how it ties back. i appreciate a few remarks about the elephant in the room not mentioned which is the iranians and the persians in particular and how is isis going to deal with, and how does it view in the -- what's it going to do and how is it going to deal with the persians and the certain shiia? >> thank you for your question.

i'll try not to go into the rabbit hole of answering this question, but i would say in short, isil distinguishes between persian people and what it calls rafida. the shiites. you have that isil recognizes historically speaking some of the greatest scholars in the islamic world are historically persians. persians wrote the law books. what it argues is that there's this -- i would say this underlying movement of shiiaism. what they call rafida. that means -- again, i have to go into the other rabbit hole to answer that one.

this is a derogatory term for shiiaism, so it's not the persians per se that isil targets. it's rather what it considers this heresy of sheism. it is on the other hand i would say against persian civilization at the same time. so that's a different thing. so just as you have this construct of a west based on roman civilization where memory is flattened. the crusaders, rome, colognalisms, they're all the same, so too do you have in isil propaganda a connation of ancient persian civilization and the idea that rafida want to revive some ancient civilization and there's a mistrust of some persians who are too persian. i would say the brief answer to that question is that it's not a mistrust of persian -- persian

people per se. persian people have been some of the greatest scholars and muslims. but rather from their perspective it's a distrust of persian civilization, pre-islamic civilization which is kept alive through the rafida. i could speak more about this, but that's the short answer to that question. thank you. >> thank you. we certainly can never -- not only a special seminar, but we have the courses to deal with this issue. we have one more in the back row. okay. >> i'm from turkey, thank you.

i just wanted to briefly touch upon some issues as turkey was mentioned a few times. first of all, i just wanted to underline what fighting terrorism, counterterrorism means to turkey. actually, we are actively taking part in all counterterrorism activities. on the regional umbrella, be it global counterterrorism forum or counterisil coalition. and what we need is -- while we are fighting this scourge, we are on the same front. we are in the same ship. and we support -- we should support each other on the same goal. but unfortunately, i am not a -- i'm not seeing that kind of support versus support. it's easy of course to paint a picture and go into government,

but i think we should put all the other elements of the picture as well which i think is lacking. say let's take the peace process with pkk. i do not know here -- panelists or the other colleagues here, they're aware of the fact that pkk has expanded the peace process with turkey. in terms of refugees, syrian refugees, i do not need to mention what turkey -- turkey is taking a lot of -- effective helps carrying out in terms of the education, health, all these areas. we are talking about treatment of people. it's not a small number. and at the same time, we cannot see any major incident arising from the syrian refugees. as i said in the beginning it's a collective responsibility of

all of us to take care of the refugee problem. it's not a problem of turkey. and there's the porous borders. why don't you talk about the -- talk about the actions the turkish government is taking on the borders. i don't want to go into details. but how about -- [ inaudible ]. we don't talk about the governments in the highest level of the governments. why don't we talk the kurds -- the terrorists who are attending the universities, the state departments, isn't there anything to do more? and we should put the record straight.

libya is not taking part in terror activities. how about the state of emergency? i do not want to make a special emphasis because it is obviously -- [ indiscernible ]. for a certain period of time. i just want to take your questions. thank you. >> thank you very much. anyone to respond to that? yeah. yeah. >> certainly, as to his -- i want to make -- say some words too. because we had a debate at home in germany about turkey's role

and you say well, turkey did everything in the fight against terrorism. and i just want to say there's some ambivalence about the german and the intelligence service found out that, you know, turkey is a central platform as they called it for terrorist activities. and the ambivalence in the fight against isis of course i understand, turkey is a big sunni country, sunni is the majority people in the islamic world, and turkey wants to keep its oil, i understand that. but it should play a more active -- proactive role in toning down the extremism. i miss turkish actions in that respect. i think they're too much focusing on too much -- i understand there are 6,000 informants in germany spying on

turks. and in the middle east situation, it is, you know, the main issue for turkey is the kurdish issue. and how to prevent and her may has mentioned it to prevent a turkish area that would be a threat, almost perceived as an existential threat for turkey if kurdistan would somehow get to state like independence. and, you know, the mix -- it is a very difficult, complex mixture of issues, but turkey could play a more positive role in fighting terrorism and i think they don't do it because of the religious component. not to lose weight as a sunni country and in the overall conflict of course between sunni and shiia, you know, shiia is the minority of if -- of the world population of islam. some people say i don't know if it's right, but shiia is more

like catholicism and sunni is more like partisanism because of its inner loose structure. anyway, i leave that apart. but again, turkey is such a pivotal country as a democracy. i hope it will remain a democracy in the middle east as an islamic country. and therefore in the fight against terrorism and the ambivalence in that respect is more -- is what worries me. particularly if we combine it with remarks that president erdogan made about democracy. i'm worried about that too. >> and now the challenge at hand was to talk about the risks involved. the generational risks involved in turkey's security future. and i could have -- you know, the official from our embassy i think asked more than 20 -- why

don't you talk about this, why don't you talk about this. and had i done that, had i pointed out, for example, kurds in turkish governments, kurdish students in one of the few kurdish literature departments, my assessment after 15 minutes would be there are no risks in turkey and i would have misled you. so i think a true assessment of the risks, the current risks as well as the upcoming risks, the generational risks concerning terrorism require an honest assessment, that's not apologetic. but that also is self-critical of turkey's successes but also its shortcomings. unless we highlight these shortcomings, we will fail to come up with correct policy to tackle those issues. so sure, i do not disagree.

in fact i have myself have mentioned the work turkey has done for 3 million refugees, more than anyone else. but at the same time i think as an academic, analyst, simply as a human being with integrity, i have to show both sides of the coin. that is we have shortcomings and they will lead to major challenges in the next decades and centuries to come. >> thank you very much. obviously always related to turkey is so critical to discuss, that's not the end of the discussion today. and in fact earlier this month we focus specifically on turkey and the role of turkey and looking at this -- both

historically and contemporary and as far as the future. i think the world really needs turkey, turkey and not existed probably to recreate it. but at any rate that's another issue and again in the interest of time i think one gentleman right there, you have a question of a shortcoming? identify yourself. >> [ indiscernible ]. a big advantage of the fact that we have a cadre of ph.d.s here specializing in the subject to perhaps point out two flaws in our academic -- [ inaudible ] in terrorism. a lot of our effort and resources invariably in the government and others goes to 90% or more islam and the history of the region. medieval history. we throw out the caliphate.

we have an approach to the problem that is more akin to analyzing, i don't know, the kling ons in "star trek," but it sounds exotic when it gets people's attention. but we forget the bigger side -- it's our involvement in the region. i mean, no one ever talks about the implications of our involvement in the region. we're forgetting recent history. i mean, isis is there because we were in iraq. isis is there because bremer decided to fire the military and throw them the streets. who is analyzing that side of the equation to make sure it won't happen in the future? i mean, that's major flaw that i have seen in the discourse -- they're on tv, newspapers,

books. everybody is focused on the exotic. perhaps the second one is economics. i mean, most of the people are involved with the subject, dealing with politics, religion, history. the economics of -- i mean of the invariables of the problems are being ignored by our own public and going to the usa economic development of growth in the region because everybody is focused on the history and bringing a couple -- few together or on a trip or something like that. don't you think we should balance our analysis more so we can find solutions and we can make better recommendations in the future? thank you. >> go ahead. >> yeah. you know, i would first of all take issue with calling the cal fate -- caliphates exotic. >> i grew up in morocco, it's a new concept. fatwa is the new concept.

i never heard fatwa growing up there. caliphate is something we learned in history. with respect to medieval time. we are giving too much credence to isis' speech which is self-defeating. and we broadcast it, on tv. >> please let me respond. first, two things. first i think, you know, we're in a different generation now. i would personally see the caliphate as something reflective of globalization. but let me just make this point. i don't -- i don't think that -- let's say me or anybody else talking about early history is reflective of an issue of -- is reflective of the academic institution ignoring more recent events. far from it. i can tell you if you attend let's say the middle eastern studies association of america, you're going to see somebody like me would be in the anomaly.

a lot less focus on let's see the ancient history. you know, i'm talking about this -- this is something that i specialize in. but i could assure you if you go to university today, if you go to colombia, go to nyu, you will see a lot of people focusing on that, focusing on the u.s. involvement and they're focusing. no, i think it's a lot more than you think. i'm the anomaly here, you know? >> at the end of the day, people watch tv. they believe what they see on tv. but the folks on fox news, it's caliphate this and madrases a that. it's wonderful from an economic point of view, but when the discourse is taken on by the news anchor, by the news outfits, i mean, it projects a completely different -- >> i'm sorry. very interesting dialogue.

but you know this is the beginning of the caliphate not the end of the caliphate. i'm sure that our colleagues have something more to say and maybe this will be a subject for another seminar or seminars or courses. and dissertations and publications, et cetera, et cetera. again, in the interest of time, unfortunately the clock is ticking. i have to really wrap it up. otherwise, i'm going to be in trouble. so let me say two things. obviously i cannot summarize the very rich and profound presentations and comments and all that. let me just say it seems to me when we talk about the generational terrorism we have

to look at both continuity and change. in terms of the historical perspective and the current situation. maybe outlook to the future. i think in my view we touched on a number of issues that require much greater attention. in other words, to answer the questions about all. that is to say the actors or if you will the perpetrators. secondly about why. the motivations that was discussed. then in terms of our -- in terms of the modus operandi of the short war or long war or terror, from the geographic, geopolitical perspective, in other words, national, regional, global, so forth. because we touched upon some at least the human cost, the political cost, psychological cost, the culture of cost and economic cost and maybe the

strategic cost and finally, this relates to the responses on the governmental level, the intergovernmental level, the nongovernmental level and clearly the dialogue continues about this and it seems again it's not only the role of government to respond, but the role of the civic society, each and every one of us can and should play some sort of a modest role because after all, this is a challenge to civilization itself. so again, one last footnote, but it's important. i think from the point of view of those who are going to continue the generational challenges, at least we're very, very pleased that we have the young people, the young students, in fact, we do have

interns right there. i see one of them, kyra, right there, who is involved and sharon right there. they're really coordinating our program in terms of becoming the next scholars, the next experts, to deal with the problem. so again, it's not the question that we're losing the war, the so-called war or battle. i think we're becoming perhaps more wiser, but we need international cooperation and what is most importantly, i think, is a sense of humanity. if we save one life, it's as if we've saved the entire world. this is the common ground for the religions. thank you very much, and we look forward to seeing you again.

for campaign 2016, c-span continues on the road to the white house. >> we're going to get things done, big things. that's what we are as americans. we will have one great american future. our potential is unlimited. >> ahead live coverage of the presidential and vice presidential debates on c-span, the c-span radio app and c-span.org. monday, september 26 is the first presidential debate lye from the university in hempstead, new york. then on tuesday october 4th, vice presidential candidates, governor make pence and senator tim kaine debate in farmville, virginia. and on sunday october 9th within washington university in st. louis hosts the second presidential debate. leading up to the third and final debate between hillary clinton and donald trump. taking place at the university of nevada las vegas on october 19th. live coverage of the presidential and vice

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[ applause ] >> ladies and gentlemen, please welcome your moderator, president and ceo of the hatachi foundation, barbara dyer. and welcome our panel, found are of shinola, tom kartsotis and united states department of labor, thomas perez. [ applause ] >> well, first let me say that there's a big storm brewing outside and unfortunately, we're short one of the best panelists. but we have a fabulous group still. i don't know what i'm going to do without her. so we're going to have to fill in. we're going to have to fill in. i know you're all here just to

see her, but don't be. >> i was. >> i was, too. that was the problem. when we began yesterday -- yesterday seemed so long ago. but when we began yesterday, president clinton encouraged us to think about alternative views of the future. and i came yesterday because i wanted to get a feel for this. i've never been to a cgi event and i learned so much. i wrote a little story that is a weave of many things that i heard and then kind of my own imagination. and i'm going to start taking us into the future. imagine it somewhere 2020, 2025, somewhere in the future. and here's tameka brown who works at detroit wire and steel. and she leads a team that designs and fabricates precision fittings for companies like shinola, like harley davidson,

toyota, delta. she never imagined that she would enter advanced manufacturing when he was actually a high school dropout. but she managed to get her diploma online and some good career counseling and she started out at detroit wire and steel in a reasonably good job, immediately entered their training program and learned advanced manufacturing. and then there's carlos rodriguez who at mercy hospital was in the dietary division, pretty lower level front line worker but he became very concerned about the patients that were not getting nutritious food, not getting their meals at the times that made the most sense for the patients. so he teamed up with the i.t. department at mercy hospital, he had the kurnl to do that and they created an app for the hospital for patients to be able to get food on demand. and then that became a business that grew to hundreds of hospitals across the united states. and then there's dana hopkins

who lives in eastern kentucky. and data had an idea and she became part of a coworkers hub. and there she hatched the idea suitable. and it's a platform that she developed that teaming up with the national diaper bank she built a customer base, a very -- those who were kind of labeled as very hard to serve, high barrier employees. and created an online on demand attire for business coaching and job matching service that's now all over the country. so dana used the idea of platforms in this rural eastern kentucky community that's now connecting people to jobs all over the country. so what do these people have in common? what could they possibly have in common, somebody in manufacturing, someone developing a platform company.

they all in 2020-plus, they all love their jobs. they love their jobs. and moreover they feel really confident in the jobs that they have that they can put food on the table, a roof every their head, that they can provide health care for our kids, not just now in the jobs that they have now but throughout the trajectory of their career that's going to have all sorts of twists and bends and starts and stops a. they feel confident in their job. they feel competent to manage and navigate the twists and turns and bends. they can navigate a lifelong career because they have the competence to navigate that career. op and they're not alone. the tide turned in 2018 where the conference board for the first time reported in their job satisfaction survey that the majority of americans like their jobs, are satisfied with their jobs. and that was a big shift around

2018. the labor market participation really started to skyrocket. people felt great about what they were doing. this happened at the confluence of important changes, a new generational shift that had a different view and a refreshing idea of what the role of business is in society and what business could accomplish. at the same time these rapid and unprecedented changes in technology made all sorts of things possible that weren't possible before. and finally and probably the most important, the wealth gap that had been mounting in america, threatening our social and economic fabric just couldn't continue. it couldn't continue and we had to do something about it. it was the sum total of thoiss and thousands of innovations with companies like shinola showing us that good business and good jobs really are equate. and labor market organizations that our other panelist was

going to talk about to provide worker voice and consumer choice and really aggregating that and moving this whole structure of incentives that drive a lot of business practices. and finally -- well, not finally but another piece was public policy where your 20th century industrial policies were retrofitted to fit a 21st century environment where that core compact of ensuring fair labor, worker safety, worker health was not only secured but was strengthened but in a context that was framed by port about and mobility and flexibility, very different framing but ensuring that that security, and finally fundamental shifts in capital markets where investors, lenders, bank of california, are you still out there, were looking at businesses by looking at the level of risk and the level of potential of businesses

by virtue of the kinds of labor force practices that they maintained and were investing in good companies that created good jobs because that was good for business and good for their bottom line. these were the changes that happened. this is where we were. this is where we will be. but i'm going to dial it back now to the present. that's a little story about the future. dial it back to the present and look at one of the companies that in my little story about the future was influential in that future. and ask you, tom kartsotis tell us now about shinola, why you created the company, why detroit, a little bit of the history so that our audience can have a sense of the company and then i'm going to ask you another question after that. >> so when i was in my early 20s, in the '80s i started another company and was fortunate enough to take it

public in '93 and i continued to work there for a total of 26 years and hadn't really thought about what i was going to do when i left that job. so when it was over, i sat with my wife, my kids were teenagers and i asked her, do we really want to leave all of this money to these kids? and the answer was no. >> your kids are watching, tom, don't forget. >> sorry, annie and jack. so we started investing in projects that were creating jobs in the united states. and one of the things that we thought was if we could build a watch factory in detroit and train 1010 workers to make watches for other companies it would create 100 jobs. it would be a wonderful thing. beginning of '11, took a year and a half to get the factory built. may of 2012 the factory was built. we had to train the workers. we had to build the factory before we had proof of concept

that we could train the workforce in detroit to make a competitive product. march of '14 we get proof of concept that the watch pieces we're making are of awe high quality. we needed to make some watch to show other watch companies the quality of what we could make. we bought parts of 2500 of our original watch that would be coming in months and we ran an ad in the newspaper asking customers to pay 550 dollars for a watch that nobody had never seen before. it said shinola on it. we didn't feel like we were going to sell a lot of these watches. we would have something to show tiffany what kind of quality we could make. and we were surprised when the watches sold out in a matter of a few days and we abandoned the idea of making watches for other

people and we started looking for other product categories that had a small defined market in the united states or brand that we could expand the businesses and create more jobs. >> this was a big risk that you took. you had no idea where it was going to end up. but here you were creating these watches with a larger vision, which is you were going to bring manufacturing to detroit and create good quality jobs. can you tell us a little bit about -- maybe describe a worker that is in your company and to give aus more concrete picture? i made up these workers. but a concrete picture of what a good job looks like from the point of view of a worker. >> we have all sorts of people. a person who was the security guard in the building applied to join. he's one of our line leaders. when you visited, there's a pizza delivery guy that you met. an interesting story, there's a girl named crystal who joined us in may of 2012 when we opened the factory.

she worked nights. he was the janitor, cleaned the floors. president clinton was going to visit the factory and we asked the president's handlers if we could give him a watch. and i said which employee should have the honor of giving the president the watch. everybody was like crystal. i didn't know the story. you don't know in i go no. evidently she took the test to see if she could make the watches. it's test that measures vision, patience and dexterity. they said you really don't know this story? no, i don't. they took me to a room that's probably 1500 square feet. at that time there were 14 employees and today there's 26. all of these people now report to crystal. in a matter of few years, three years to be exact, she went from cleaning the floors at night to now she has 26 employees and she's an integral part of the company. during the tour with president clinton, at the end of it i was like okay, crystal, tell him

your story. so she goes through the story. and it was just the president and myself are in back where the watchmakers were. i could see he was moved by this story and it hit me at that moment that this brand is being built from the inside. there are 20 other stories just like that. >> brand is being built from the tin side with this incredible talent that you've been able to unleash. otherwise people might have written crystal off. here you are building the brand with the quality of the people you have and you recognized something in crystal that really made all this possible. secretary perez you've been traveling around the country, active in all sorts of ways. you're active in the conscious capitalism movement, it's a movement. you've been looking at companies that are doing the kinds of things we're seeing at shinola. can you give us your picture from what you've seen in your travels of good companies, good jobs and what they look like and

why they do what they do? >> barbara, here's the bottom line. you talked about this futuristic world. the future is now. i see this in my frafls all across the country. i was in pikeville, kentucky, coal country. we met 15 coal miners who had lost their job. and they were at a company called bit source. bit source was a startup. we helped fund the training for these employees. and their motto is from coal to code. and i met people who were there who had never turned a computer on in their life. and the one guy said i got called from my company last week. they offered me my job back at the coal company and i said no. i have a brighter future here. another guy had a screen shot of his 1-year-old. when this little boy grows up saying daddy, i can't do this. i'm going to be able to look him in the eye and say yes you can. because i couldn't turn a

computer on and now i am a coder. i see in the eyes of a woman i met in los angeles. she was born into poverty, grew up in foster care, went from foster care to the criminal justice system. she has game. she wanted to get a good job. so she got into an apprenti apprenticeship program. she kicked butt in a man's world. she got a job as an apprentice laborer. she's building the light rail in crenshaw. when she went there's a photo of all of the local labor that's building this light rail and her son and she sat in the box with the first lady a couple of years ago for the state of the union. and she took her kids to the site of where she works and they saw her picture and her 3-year-old said wow, mommy. you must be important. and the answer is hell yeah,

she's important. and you know what? what is the most fulfilling thing, i asked her. she said my kid just turned 15. and i was able to get him a present on his birthday. that is the dignity of work. that's the stick tu tifness that i see. and i meet employers, not only tom in detroit, but go to detroit manufacturing systems. this is a place founded by a woman, single mom, native american. she went from zero to 1200 employees with the help of the workforce system. and she is now the largest provider -- they make the console for the ford f-150, the best selling truck in america. it's not an ad for ford. that's just a statement of fact. she went from zero to 1200. some of her workers are veterans, some of them have a criminal history. all of them have talent. and it really embodies the value of stick tu tifness.

it values the people i see and the businesses i meet. i was out on the farm workers on the west coast, equitable farm initiative. i met with farmers, growers, i met with folks from costco and whole foods. it is a partnership between folks who understand the stakeholder model of governance. stakeholders are best served -- shareholders are best served when all stakeholders are well served. when i go to costco -- my costco card is so old, i had hair when i had that card. and when i buy strawberries at costco, i am excited about the fact that the person who picked those strawberries was treated fairly, can feed his or her family, is not breathing pesticides. that is the stakeholder model of governance. we need to scale it, barbara.

while i see this, i also meet people like the woman i met in the fight for 15 movement in detroit. and the night before i met her she and her three kids slept in her car because their rat-infested apartment was declared uninhabitable. i see america at its best and there are days when i see america at its worst. but i have an unrelenting optimism. the wind is at our back and we need to make sure that this wind at our back results in shared prosperity for everyone. that's why the commitments that were made today, the commitments that i see from businesses, from the emerging people like rock and the domestic workers alliance and labor unions like the uaw working in partnership with the big three auto makers. so when they were at the existential crisis they came together. i see it across america and that's why i'm relentlessly

optimistic. i've met the workers that tom has talked about. >> how do we lock it in? how do we scale it up? what's getting in our way? >> well i think -- inside voice, let's see. >> i knew we wouldn't have any problem. i mean first there is a number of levels there. i think our public policy has to keep up with the changing times. i speak to so many people whose rent or mortgage is less than their child care bill. i speak to so many women who are making remarkably unconscionable choices between the child that they love and the job that they need. i met a woman who is a bus driver in connecticut. i was with a woman -- a congresswoman named rosa delaura one day. rosa is wonderful person, a force of nature.

she had just given birth to her daughter. two weeks after she gave birth to her daughter because there is no federal paid leave in this country, she had to go back to work. so she got on her school bus with her 2-week-old, strapped her in. and all the other little kids with the sniffles, because their moms and dads had to go to work were putting their kids on the bus. we can do better than that as a nation. and so our public policy has to catch up. you know, we're doing everything we can under the president's leadership to make sure that people who work overtime get paid overtime, to make sure that people get a minimum wage because you know what? nobody who works a full-time job in this country should have to live in poverty. and what we're doing also, and you mentioned the conscious capitalism movement, barbara, i spent a lot of time in business schools. i spend a lot of time with people like kip tindell, the ceo of the container store, a publicly traded company who understands the stakeholder model of governance. because i meet company after company, leaders like tom who

understand that when my workers do well, i do well. and you can have shared prosperity. and in fact, when you look at the best places to work in america, the fortune best 100, you look at the publicly traded companies that are there. they outperform their competitors by two or three to one. because they understand that when you take care of your workers, you take care of your bottom line as well. we've got to -- we're building a movement. i'm a civil rights lawyer and a labor advocacy person. and this is about building movements. we build movements one community at a time. we marshall the collective power of we. and i'm seeing this growing across this country. the conscious capitalism movement. >> what are the real force and the incentives that are going to drive it? we have seen a decline in labor unions, for example, that have been a major source in the last century for quality jobs. what's going to replace that?

what is replacing that? and the other thing is you mentioned outperformance. capital markets, though, still haven't despite the sort of noise that we hear. but it really hasn't grown to a scale level of impact investing or investing for the triple bottom line. but ultimately capital markets need to shift. how do you see that happening? what are the forces that are going to drive this movement? >> the collective power of we. i haven't given up on the labor movement. the labor movement is what brought us the middle class in america. we need to make sure we continue. we're confronting undeniable headwinds. it's sport in places like wisconsin to go after public sector labor unions. people like governor walker, i think his parents taught him that if you blow out your neighbor's candle, it makes your candle shine brighter. if i can take away that teacher's pension, then you know what? my neighbor who doesn't have a pension, i've created an equal playing field. and you know what i say? if your neighbor doesn't have a

pension, let's work to get them a job that will give them a pension. let's not try to take away my neighbor's pension. so we've got to work hard at that. and we need to in addition, we need to shine a light on people like tom, on companies like the container store, on companies like costco. if i had bought a thousand dollars in costco stock 20 years ago, i would be far wealthier than i ham now. they understand the stakeholder model of governance. places, i feel obligated to speak for her as well there is remarkably innovative organizing going on, whether it's domestic workers. she organizes the restaurant opportunity center. and what they're doing is shining a light on employers who understand that the high road is the smart road. they are also marshalling the values-laden judgments of millennials so that people can

make informed choices. i know where i live that if i know -- if i knew that restaurant a was mistreating its workers and restaurant b was treating its workers fairly, that is a data point that would inform my decisions. and as a result, they're marshalling that collective power of wisdom and empowering consumers to be conscious consumers. and so i see that everywhere. and i see the fight for 15 movement. people laughed at this three years ago. they laughed at sciu when they led that. $15. that's pie-in-the-sky. we now have 20% of the nation's population living in states or localities that have passed or will soon pass a $15 minimum wage. and the fight for 15 movement, folks, is more than about a number. it's about the fight for dignity. it's about the fight for worker voice. it's about making sure that workers have a seat at the

table. because you know what? if you're not at the table, you're beyond the menu. we have to understand that. >> i'm going have to remember next time to ask you a question about something you actually care about. [ applause ] i want to just broaden the picture a little bit. and we've been in a number of settings together where the topic was the digital economy and the gig economy and the independent worker economy. and i don't want to exclude you in this, because i would love to hear what you have to say. but i think it wouldn't be -- we wouldn't have completed this conversation unless we brought that into the picture. what is a quality job in that world? because so much of the context still is about the sort of singular relationship between the employer and an employee. >> sure. >> but give us your perspective on that picture which i tried to paint of my picture of now and

in the future. >> we had a three-day conversation entitled the future of work at the department of labor last december. and we've been doing a lot of work with the aspen institute. and i've been doing a lot of work with senator mark warner who has been doing a lot of thinking about this. and the one thing about this is it's important to understand that the current so-called gig economy is about 1 to 1.5% of the overall economy. it's a conspicuous 1 to 1.5%. it's also important i think to keep in mind that gig work didn't just begin three years ago. anyone who is in the construction industry, that's been kind of a gig economy for a long time. and it seems to me that the question presented is how do we accommodate the desire, and it's an understandable and laudable desire for people to have flexibility and control over their own destiny with the need for that social safety net? because it's great to have flexibility and independence

until you get in a car wreck. and then if you don't have workers comp or health care, you're kind of in a world of hurt. and that's why i've always been befuddled at republican opposition to the aca. because the affordable care act is a linchpin of the gig economy. because you can have portability. and i have been really appreciative of efforts of people like allen krueger of princeton, and people like david rolf and nick hanauer who are talking about things like portable benefits, talking about how do we build that social compact 2.0. i have more questions than answers about some of the proposals out there. but i think it is a conversation that is important to have. and to me, what i think we need to do is figure out what are our values. because we can have a conversation about whether we need a third tier, independent

contractor versus dependent contractor. i think what we ought to do is figure out what are our shared values, and then values can drive public policy. to me the most important value is we welcome and embrace innovation. that's been who we are as a country since the beginning of time. but what we need to make sure is that the innovation that we're observing now in the on demand economy is inclusive innovation that benefits everybody. and if we don't have inclusive innovation and rather just have innovation that benefits a few investors, then that feels more like a gilded age, which was not a golden age. >> i'm getting in serious trouble because it says please wrap. but tom, just one last -- one last -- please wrap. but secretary perez talks about values. i wouldn't want to leave without

acknowledging and rating the values represented in your endeavor and moving to detroit and bringing manufacturing into detroit, the huge risk that you have taken. so thank you for that. and thank you all. i guess we have to stop. we could go on. [ applause ] tonight on c-span3, a house hearing on mandated insurance coverage for mental health care. a conference hosted by the atlantic magazine looks at national security since 9/11. and we'll preview a special smithsonian exhibit of 9/11 art tacks. artifacts. sunday marks the 15th anniversary of september 11th, and c-span's live coverage of the day's events begins at 7:00 a.m. eastern during washington journal when you can join the conversation about 9/11. at 8:30, we join president obama live from the white house to