with some imagination, we hope that you can understand and feel how a family could live very comfortably in an environment that is intended to help shape and support and reinforce their experience. >> this weekend, we are featuring the history of grand rapids, michigan together with our comcast cable partners. learn more about grand rapids and other cities on our cities tour at c-span.org/citiestour. you are watching american history tv. all weekend every weekend on c-span3. next on the civil war, scott hardwick, a former supervisory historian at gettysburg national military park talks about the leading historian of the battle of gettysburg in the late 19th century who preserved and

accurately mark the battlefield itself. this hour and 15 minute event is part of the annual summer conference hosted by the gettysburg college civil war institute. >> good evening. carmichael, professor of history here at gettysburg college. it is my pleasure this evening to welcome scott hardwick. i hope everyone is familiar with them. a longtime historian at gettysburg national park. during that time, as you will know he has given the american public fantastic and engaging viewers -- tours. we are fortunate to have him about. talk to us

we honor scott with the scott hardwick fellowship given to four historians from the national park service. the national park service -- sorry to say, they provide very little training for their frontline historians. they have a lot of training money for their superintendents, but not many for their historians. we are ablee that to enable these historians to come here and engage and converse with these dollars, to meet the general public. it is one of the things we are very proud of. scott, we are waiting for the check so that we can fund your fellowship. i hope that is in the mail soon.

one of the things scott has been able to do during his very, very busy career is he has been able to done his own -- do his own scholarship. he has done a very successful book, not on gettysburg, is , theled, to antietam creek military campaign of 1862. he is in the process of completing the second volume. when would we expect a release date? a couple more years. you are retired now. you should be able to not get out. -- knock that out. it is a fantastic book. it is published by johns hopkins university press. tonight, scott will be returning to gettysburg. for the last time, he will speak on john bacher bachelder.

please give a warm welcome to scott hardwick. [applause] >> ok. here is what some of the ,eterans had to say about them he knows more about this battle than any man living or any man who ever did live. he can tell more of what i did there and i can tell myself. if you are not familiar with him, he was the commander of the 12 army corps at gettysburg. "i became acquainted a few months after the battle of gettysburg. i consider him the best authority in this country as regard to detail with that action. he's sketched every part of the field and is familiar with the whole of it.

that is the kernel of the 33rd -- writing in 1860. lastly, the kernel of the reader -- the kernel of the 33rd in the battle of gettysburg writing to the governor of massachusetts in he knows more of the battle of gettysburg that any officer on it in either side. he was not in the battle of gettysburg. he was not a soldier. bachelder is perhaps the most important person gettysburg you may never have heard of. who then was john bachelder? why is he important to gettysburg and what was his vision? as we investigate bachelder, because you can't understand him unless you get an oversight of

his life and what you get at gettysburg. the first part of the program, we will run through what bachelder does in relationship to gettysburg and some things about his life. the second part of the program, we going to look at it very specific and symbolic area of the battlefield in which he was very involved in some of the controversies that occurred in some of this place that informs us about bachelder's experience at gettysburg. bachelder is from new hampshire. he was educated at a military school in new hampshire. he seemed to like military things, history. in 1851 when he was 26 years old, he was born in 1825, he moved to reading and became the principal of a facility and a school that became known as the pennsylvania military academy. in 1852, he is appointed a

colonel in the pennsylvania militia. those of you that are familiar, you may sometimes see that he was referred to as colonel bachelder. he was a colonel in the pennsylvania militia. i don't know if he ever did any in the pennsylvania militia. this tells us bachelder was a good person at making connections with people who were powerful. he was very good at that. he will stay in reading until 1853. i don't know why he leaves. he goes back to capture. toworks -- -- the ghost back -- he goes back to new hampshire. he is an artist, a very good artist. he dabbled a bit in photography. toward the late 1850's, what he was hoping to do was write the definitive history of the battle of bunker hill. and he was going to illustrate it. the problem he encountered was that that a was extremely poorly documented. he really wasn't going to be able to write the tech of -- type of history he wanted but

the war came along. bachelder apparently, and i don't know what type of illness he might have had, but he said at one point he physically was not in the condition he needed to be to serve in the army. he does not go into the army. he is very committed to the union cause. but he's very interested in what might happen in this war so he attaches himself as a civilian to the army of the potomac in spring of 1862 and follows the army up the virginia peninsula and paints this painting. it has been reprinted in a lot of picture books at the civil war. but the reason he's with the army is he wants to be president -- present when they fight in these decisive battles of the war. everyone thinks this campaign will end the war. it is all going to be over. he is going to be there to document and illustrated.

the campaign doesn't go as planned. it ends up as a debacle. bachelder gets sick and leaves the army at the end of the campaign and returns to new hampshire but extracts a promise from some of his contacts in the army. he says i want you to give the early intelligence of any important movements looking to a decisive engagement. he's still hoping he can be present at that decisive battle he can write the history of. bachelder could read the newspaper, and in june 1863, it was splashed all over the place robert e. lee had moved out of virginia into pennsylvania. the army of the potomac was moving after him. his army contacts may have also contacted him and told him this campaign will be a big one and there will be a big battle. he would have learned shortly after july 1 of the beginning of the battle and as soon as he , learned about the battle

beginning in gettysburg, he made his arrangements at home and left home. he arrives on the battlefield either july 5 or july 7. the stories vary. it is irrelevant. we do know many of the confederate dead are still am unburied by the time he has arrived. he rode the ground and sketched it all. and then he took his sketches and went to camp letterman hospital and other field hospitals and sat down with wounded soldiers and spoke to them about where they were on the battlefield and if they could mark where they were on these maps he was working on. sometimes, he would take them out on the battlefield with him. there's a confederate soldier who said when i was wounded at the general hospital, i went on the battlefield with you and pointed out where my regiment fought during the battle.

he is going to document every road, every fence line, every house, every orchard, every wood line. this is a very detailed survey he conducts. he finishes up late october, early november and then he will secure permission from general george meade, the commander of the army of the potomac, to travel down to brandy station, virginia, where the army is going into winter quarters and he will spend the entire winter with the army. he certainly probably spent most of the winter down there and the purpose of going down there was to interview someone from every regiment in every battery that was in the battle. pretty remarkable effort that bachelder will document this battle. what he hopes to do is write a history of the battle and wants

to create a map like no one has ever seen before for a major battle. he will travel around to all these different regiments and batteries and talk to officers and even takes sketches down with him and he will sit down with these men and have them mark where they were on the field. he also discovers not all eyewitnesses are created alike. [laughter] one day after he had been down in the second corps camps, he said, i believe i discovered how they made the sun stand still. -- joshua made the sun stand still. he relayed how sometimes, several officers of different regiments would tell them we were engaged at four clock and he's talking to an officer from another regiment and this one says we were engaged at 6:00. he would say you might be in error because all these other officers said it was 4:00.

he said they would lean forward and they would say i was there, i know. so bachelder will learn that this history that he wants to write, there will be some challenges to it. some people lie, some people exaggerate, some people have something to cover. and some people just aren't very observant. as a historian, he will have to sift through those rings. he returned to hampshire and sets to work on his isometric map, which i'm sure many of you have seen. you have to blow up this map. it is unbelievable. it is a birdseye view, looking down. when we did the battlefield rehabilitation at gettysburg, still somewhat

when we did the battlefield ongn we were doing the planning our , historians use that amount as one of their base maps. today, that map is in use. how did he get the confederate positions? from interviewing confederate soldiers who had been wounded. marking their positions. general meade when bachelder proposed he wanted to do this map, he said i commenced my drawing of gettysburg wise men , shook their heads. i shall never forget the look of credulity on his countenance when i reported what i propose to do. this guy is a crank, right. then they saw this map and they were fixed on it. care, andmined with especially the positions given

to the third corps commanded by myself, and i find it singularly accurate. he sent the view of the battle of gettysburg has been carefully examined by me i find it as , accurate as such a map can be made and it is accurate as far as my knowledge extends for that all of these people were so impressed with this map, they all endorsed it. this was a commercial venture. their they will pay their train fare and put them in the hotel located west of willoughby run. and what we are going to do is mark positions where regiments were on the battlefield. they also try to contact confederates. and they are going to get a tremendous response. 120 officers from the army of the potomac are going to attend this event and three or four from the army of northern virginia. some of these officers who came came because they were suspicious. they are just trying to push business to the springs hotel

and enhance the reputation of john bachelder. that is what alexander webb got. you was a general in brigade commander and wrote the following letter from springs hotel two days into the event. coming to position of troops have not been properly arranged -- the painting comes out, and in the late 1860's, he also begins to convene groupings of officers to go over the battlefield and mark positions and explain their position and movements during the battle. but the biggest one he puts together is in 1869.

he sends a circular out to all the officers he knows of and tells them he wants to gather everybody at the springs hotel. they will pay their train fare and put them in the hotel located west of willoughby run. and what we are going to do is mark positions where regiments were on the battlefield. they also try to contact confederates. and they are going to get a tremendous response. 120 officers from the army of the potomac are going to attend this event and three or four from the army of northern virginia.

some of these officers who came came because they were suspicious. they are just trying to push business to the springs hotel and enhance the reputation of john bachelder. that is what alexander webb got. you was a general in brigade commander and wrote the following letter from springs hotel two days into the event. coming to position of troops have not been properly arranged and feeling the arrangement looked toward the interest of those interested in the springs and for the personal interest of colonel bachelder in the battle of gettysburg. i'm satisfied my suspicions were unfounded and i now believe this

meeting of prominent officers engaged in the battle is and was intended to simply fix the positions of regiments. it has been arranged and carried out with that single view and i'm satisfied it was not only my pleasure but my duty to attend this meeting. what webb expresses is something that bachelder is also very good at. he is sincere. he is going to end up earning his living off of be a historian of the battle of gettysburg but there is no government agency that operates this place. there is no parking gettysburg. he is doing this at his own

expense so he has to make a living at it. but what webb learns is this guy really was to do this. he is in syria and his purpose and others will discover that as well. just to get an idea of the details, this is an excerpt. they had a stenographer with the group. the notes are fantastic. very interesting. the 11th stake they drive into the ground is new and july 1, 1863. the 12 stake is left of 133rd pennsylvania. that is the type of detail they were doing at this meeting of officers and on the battlefield.

while this meeting of officers is going on, at some point during the meeting, bachelder is on the battlefield with walter harrison. a staff officer for general ticket. it was hot and they were sitting underneath the main clump of trees you can see. this was taken i think in march. in august, the trees were shaved so -- shade so they sat underneath the trees and during the conversation, walter harrison said explained to me what an important feature the trees were at the time of the battle and how it had been a landmark he said these trees must have been the high watermark of the rebellion. harrison agreed. bachelder writes he was imbued with a reference for those trees.

he took all sorts of people on the battlefield. hundreds and hundreds of veterans of the battle, almost every high ranking officer from the union army. here we in 1885. you can imagine what you can learn on these experiences but the challenge he has and trying to sift through what they wanted you to know and what really happened. they are near the site where hancock was wounded on july 3. bachelder will carry on from 1863 to 80 -- 1894 when he dies. a massive correspondence with the veterans.

largely union but eventually gets to the confederates. you see the value of something that detailed and how it can help you if you are trying to reconstruct who was where and when they were there. the other letter is the commander of the texas brigade, describing in detail the movement his brigade made during the battle. the bachelder papers were kind of scattered around but the bulk of them ended up in the new hampshire historical society. and nobody knew they were there, they sat there unused for decades.

and finally in the late 1950's, it was edwin connington who found them. he tracked down this bachelder fellow -- no one knew anything about that chilled her. he tracked him down and these people brought out all these boxes. inside was hundreds and hundreds of letters from veterans to bachelder about the battle. david and andrea glad edited all the known bachelder papers.

bachelder also wanted to promote tourism to gettysburg in 1873. he publishes how to see it. first, guidebook to gettysburg. it's really good even to this day. it's interesting to read because you can get an idea of what was here in 1873. while he was working on that, yet also been commissioned. he led a survey team that surveyed the battlefield at 100 to 200 feet. that is far more detailed than the bachelder are symmetric map.

the bat shelter map was the foundational map that we use at gettysburg national military park all the time. bachelder places all the troops on these maps. i use these maps all the time. he made some mistakes in these maps but based on how difficult it is to do this mapping, these are remarkable. still to this day, their value is priceless. after he finishes those maps, he is commissioned to do maps about the calvary battle. these are two of the four maps and they are extremely detailed and very useful. once he finishes these, he starts working on a series of 68 maps of sequences. they look like finished maps but when you look at the second and third day maps, you can find part of them, i don't think he ever finish the maps. here's a reason why he didn't finish them. bachelder has paid $50,000 by the u.s. government. congress never appropriated money for anything during that time. that is how important they thought this battle would be.

no one knew the battle like bachelder did. when bachelder finished his manuscript which came in at 2550 pages, everybody was disappointed. because he didn't use any of that correspondence. he didn't use the interviews and the tour as he took the veterans on the battlefield. all this really is is stringing together all the official reports for the battle of gettysburg from the beginning to the end.

basically, bachelder was a compiler. he gathered these reports and put a narrative in between. he didn't have any official report so he put in the history. they paid $50,000 for something that was just going to collect dust.

that is why the maps never got published. they never published the history. so i have to ask myself the question, why did bachelder ignore and leave out all of this material he had?

the battle was controversial. bachelder's work year wasn't done. he didn't want to be controversial, he didn't what to jeopardize finishing his work. he took the safe course. he didn't do anything interpretive at all, he just laid out the facts and no one could attack him on that except they were all disappointed in him. from 1863 until he died in 1894 in one way or another, john bachelder was a gated with the gettysburg battlefield memorial

association. this was an organization that was created by local people immediately after the battle in august 1863 and was incorporated by the state of pennsylvania in the spring of 1864 and its purpose was to preserve the site of the great union victory at gettysburg. they would buy up pieces of property that showed vital damage and the focus was on the union army. they didn't have authority to condemn property if they didn't have willing sellers. they didn't have that for where the confederate army had in. this was to highlight the union triumph. it is a unique endeavor, very unique because the monument was the battlefield and they didn't

want any monuments, any roads. that is the way it was until about 1879, 1880 when this man was going to exercise a hostile takeover. john vanderslice came to gettysburg in 1879 with his unit. he was not in the battle but is union had a unit at gettysburg. he came out and watered -- wandered around and said this place has tremendous potential. this is the great victory of the union army. he got posts all over the state to get into the gettysburg battlefield memorial association . they took it over, voted out and voted in a new board what vanderslice wanted to do was open up avenues that would allow veterans to get to where they had been on the battlefield and wanted to encourage veterans to memorialize what they did. one of the people who was all for this was john bachelder. this was bachelder's dream.

he wants to market the field. he wants to encourage people to come to gettysburg, to learn about this history. since vanderslice is suggesting the gbm a should start erecting monuments and opening avenues, we have and we need people to supervise the monument thing. there is no plan. we need somebody to do it. so bachelder is the obvious guy. in 1883, he is selected to be the superintendent of legends and tablets. he will work with state legislatures or veterans groups, whoever is responsible for any monument on the field to determine its location.

he will also work with them to make sure it is an appropriate design. he will work with them. this becomes important about material. some of the early monument and best had think and stands -- sandstone. bachelder will push for and get approval by the board to accept nothing but granite or bronze and some marble. that's what the monument are so sturdy on the battlefield. because bachelder early on is proposing stuff that will last a long time. bachelder would be responsible for improving -- approving the inscription. you also accord with stitches etc. this is a tremendous amount of work. there was so much work after a few years he had to resign as supervisor of tablets ampligen. tablets and legends. we are just going to talk about

one little thing here. the monument that i pointed out, 147 infantry. i am sure you have all in there. this is the old bridge, over the railroad cut. the monument in the very right front from wisconsin. the 147th did not fight there. go to the left of the photograph and up to the next ridge, that is where they fought. the reason the monument up here is bachelder mistake. he said that bachelder on the first map left whole batteries off of the -- it.

so the 147 got put in the wrong place on the map. the next map he put paul's henry back on the ridge where the monuments are and he put the one 47th with that. because he did that the monument and not getting located on eastern mcpherson's rich. it is still there. there are tons of them. veterans were constantly having controversy. who was the farthest to the right and who was there and on and on and you can imagine the amount of correspondence that went on. what about the confederates? to mark the seal you have to have the confederates. they were suspicious of bachelder initially. you see pictures of gm's cap are and here is what he wrote in 18 -- 1865. i decline a feeding tube bachelder will -- childers requests.

his material is born from northern sources. it must be excluded because it is unknown and unacceptable to him. it may be best to state here that the fact are implied in the questions with the kernel reference to me. they are almost imaginary and mythical. 21 years past, i give you my personal recollections touching the particulars in which he re-choir. james kamber. bachelder war you down. and he was sincere and it came through. it was clear gradually that he had no agenda other than wanting to mark the battlefield. and not get any politics involved. another right soon, i appreciate

your desire to give the truth of history as accurate as possible. it must always result in bitterness of feeling. his sincerity wears people down and he starts to get confederate correspondents who are telling them where they were on the field. the could only mark and preserve the field with the army, and not where the army of northern virginia was. bachelder was always thinking in terms of coming generations. he feels it is imperative while the veterans are alive and while he is alive that we need to mark the confederate lines of battle. the only way we can do that is applied in from union veterans

and the united states congress gets involved. we need the government involved. he writes in 19 -- 1889, when i advocate the markings skeptics looked at each other with a wink and said i was a client -- crank . i spent the better part of a

lifetime preserving gettysburg. i now desire to round up a life's work by completing the marking of the field and i hoped with the assistance of every veteran of the army of the potomac. many of these letters that veterans were of him are in -- most versatile order with publication. mark the field, but not one word of commiseration, not one sentence in praise done at a bad cost. robert carter said he most hardly in a worse the plan for marking the confederate line for historic purposes alone. i must disapprove any monuments with inappropriate legends which shall the present or coming generations false history or or a false sentiment. it will be a tough road ahead. some veterans who wrote him thought they.

one was james beaver the governor of pennsylvania. he writes and says that is a good idea to mark the lines. wouldn't it be well to make in a act as to enable them to secure not only avenues along which the lines of the can enter forces were formed but the ground over which pickett made his charge. it would be well in my judgment for the government to secure a portion of the land lying between the two lines which was fought over on the second day and charged by pickett. if this were done, it could be preserved in a national park. the legislation did not make it through congress, twice it failed. i think it failed not because they didn't like bachelder, they just did not want to pay. it will cost $25,000 to start and they didn't want to appropriate the money. it wasn't until 1893 that they finally pushed it through. one of those reason is that bachelder, he was like a bulldog. writing state legislatures, lobbying incessantly to try to

find the right tools within the united states congress to push us legislation through your to go through and appoint a commission, all veterans plus an engineer. he is so famous and knowledgeable he is selected for the commission even though he is not a veteran. he will get started on surveying where the confederate lines were, where avenues would go. he knows all of the land owners. he can talk to them about getting rights of way and get started. in 1894 he comes down with pneumonia and he dies. he misses culmination of what he has been working for all of this time. he said i now desire to round up a life work by completing the marking of the field. that life work is completed in a sense by the creation of gettysburg national military park. it will get completed in 1895. the person who pushed that

legislation through. and signals. it wasn't easy to get the legislation through congress. one of the reasons it reached the point that someone was thinking about doing this was because of bachelder's work. a lifetime of work. he had built this place into this nationally prominent location. we will take a shift to a more narrow focus to a highly symbolic place, this is the high water mark in 1882. that is the clump of trees, you can see today there are other true spirit in 1882 they are gone. the only remaining are the ones with the iron fence around it, the tall trees you see in the photograph. in 1882, in july of 1881 the gbma decided at one of their meetings -- when they meet they

are not like the national park service. they don't live and work here. there is a couple of more members who work here. they are the local people who can do stuff to get done. he lives in hyde park, massachusetts. they come to gettysburg for a few meetings a year. they don't make any money. they don't have much money. the only money they get is what is appropriate to them from state legislatures. in july of 1881 at one of their board meetings they decide, let's open and avenue from -- town road, coming out of the picture above it to little round top which would be south of the clump of trees there we will open an avenue. you see wagon tracks in the photograph. today it is a paved road.

that is what hancock avenue was. the idea is we will open up this avenue and we need to a wire the in 1882 you see the trees are still standing. instill looks like it did 1863. it almost did not. after the battle, basil biggs, an african farmer and a business man. hard-working guy, a veterinarian. bought bianca larry -- in 1869, that shoulder was riding along cemetery ridge and he comes along to basal cutting down the clump of trees. the first thing he does is the historical value of these trees. he tried to explain this stuff and biggs says, i have to make a living. >> [laughter]

>> sorry. batchelder tries a different tact. this guy is a smart businessman. he says, these trees will be worth more to you one day in the future if you preserve them. because there is a group called the gettysburg battlefield memorial association acquiring land. i guarantee you if you keep the trees, you will get more money out of this land by selling it to them for historical value than you will by cutting these trees down. biggs said all right, good deal. he did not cut the trees down. that is how the trees ended up staying in place and they want the land from basal biggs and he did make a good profit on it. in august of 1883, batchelder is made the superintendent of legends. a month later the 72nd pennsylvania corrects a monument.

it is actually to the philadelphia brigade. they erect a monument in that location. it takes a little while because these guys don't meet all that ,ften in november of 1884 bachelder is going to introduce a resolution at one of the board meetings that no tablet or monument shall be permanently erected on grounds held by the association without permission from the board of directors nor until it's legends have been approved by the superintendent of tablets and legends subject to the appeal of the board of directors. you cannot just put anything you want out there. youhave to go to gbm a if are putting it on gbm a land. they meet and have to approve your legend. these guys are making it up as they are going along. there is no master plan. there is no design or this -- there is no design to this landscape. they are making it up as they move along, step-by-step.

in 1885, the next year bachelder will make a recommendation that they put an iron fence around the clump of trees. the souvenir hunters are going in there and they will destroy them. they disapprove it. some people look at that and, they say well they didn't like bachelder. they didn't have any money. they disapprove it and he is going again in 1886 and they will turn him down again. two times he, let's build an iron fence around it both times , it does not fly. they don't have any money. between october of 1885 and june of 1886, 3 monuments were erected immediately south of the trees. you can see there is no fence around it. you also can see if you are familiar putting this don't on the monument is not there. those are the three regiments.

positions the regiments moved to to engage the confederates who broke through during pickett's charge. so that is the advanced positions they took. because of monuments go in and more people are down there wandering around. finally, in 1887, the board goes ok. batchelder, we do approve an iron fence. in 1887, the fence is going to go up. also in 1887, john vanderslice moves that bachelder prepares a suitable tablet descriptive of the engagement where pickett's division assaulted the union lines tablet will be placed upon a metallic posts. we are talking with something simple. this was to bachelder the idea, the origin, the seed for creating a high water mark

monument in gettysburg. bachelder had approved these three monuments but as he thought about it, remember there is no plan here. he thinks about it, this is going to be a problem. no less than 13 regiments helped to repulse the attack. it was a jumble. the units were mingled together . this is not good way for future generations to understand how this battle was fought. so bachelder will travel to washington dc and meets with the secretary of war and regular army officers and they discussed how should we handle the direction of monuments at gettysburg. reachedous decision is , the desire of

the memorial association would be better carried out if the lines of battle were marked rather than the lines of contact. battle rather of than the lines of contact when any regiment left position to go into action. batchelder returns to the board in 1887. he proposes we need a policy that says you put your monument where you were in the line of battle, not contact. unanimously approved. that is why you see the order on the battlefield today. now, thise iron fence photograph taken in 1890. you have another problem here. what are you going to do with 3 monuments that are already located near the trees? as sergeant thomas greer writes to bachelder, he says he is all for this line of battle thing. you're responsible for the next

generation for the completeness , of your work. if you leave a mass of incongruous matter standing over the field which confuses and misleads you will be condemned rather than honored for the service rendered. should you attempt to locate monuments at the end of the chart you would have contention that you would be unable to reconcile. they asked for 3 massachusetts regiments, would you move your monuments to where you were in line in battle and we will place and advanced position tablet to where you advanced and they agreed. you see the line of monuments, that is the line of battle on july 3 and july 2. the 15th massachusetts and 20th massachusetts are on the line. the 19th massachusetts are right in front of the 19th massachusetts. they moved to the other side of hancock avenue, the eastern side

which is where they were. they played by the rules. this policy now is going to go forward. it will lead to some problems. on june 15, 1887, an act test by -- an act is passed by the pennsylvania legislature to appropriate $125,000 to the gbma for the purpose of marking positions of command on the battlefield. it is a five-man commission. this is a pennsylvania state commission and we have the gbma, and they are coming on gbma land to mark positions of pennsylvania regiments as to where their monuments should go. nobody from the 72nd pennsylvania showed up when they did the marking, in april of 1888. the commissioners were told that

the 72nd pennsylvania was located where you see the triangle. that was their position. they were in the reserve line like the 19th massachusetts was. they drove a stake in the ground at that point. word filters back to the veterans of the 72nd pennsylvania and they are not happy. they want their monuments up in the front between the monument between the 69 and 71'st pennsylvania in our brigade. the commission says we will come to philadelphia and we will meet with you and other veterans of the philadelphia brigade and make your case. 72nd makes the case, they don't like where the commission is going to locate them. there is from other regiments say you don't belong down there. you are in the reserve line. so now it moves back to gettysburg. on july 3, 1888 some of the

commissioners from the state commission, along with veterans from the 72nd come to a gma board meeting and make their case. monument they want the at the wall. bachelder said no you have to play by the, rules per you have -- you need to play by the rules, you have to go back there. the board agrees with him. they continue to debate this at the meeting. finally, the gbm a -- the gbma compromises. you can place your monument somewhere along the line where the philadelphia brigade monument is located. that is a compromise. 72nd veterans rejected the compromise and they continued to press to have their regimental monument up at the wall. sometime after this meeting the pennsylvania commissioners agreed to meet with the representatives of the 72nd pennsylvania at gettysburg. a big crowd of 72nd guys, and

they meet on the battlefield and they are trying to make their case and these pennsylvania commissioners are listening to them and saying you are not convincing us. everybody is unhappy. everybody is not happy with what's going on here. it's getting late in the day so they go down to the train station and they go to the u.s. hotel in harrisburg and the commissioners hold an evening session. the evening session goes on until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning. one of these commissioners says we are at a loss to know what to to locate the monument where -- along the line of battle. not where they moved up to, where they were in the line of battle. they are scratching their head. they are trying to figure out a compromise and then samuel harper, the secretary of the

's eight commission, finds this passage which is in paragraph six of the gbma policy and -- policy on monuments. it is if the semi was a by other troops of monuments must be placed the order that they occupy the ground spirit the first line the second in 20 feet rear of it and so on. the in scripture and is explaining the movements. that's logical. harper says look, we tell the 72nd fellows they can put their monument 20 feet behind the front line. let's try it in the 72nd guys go ok we can live with that. so nobody however communicated that to the board of the gma -- the board of the gbma. in december of that year, in 1888, representatives of the 72nd come out and start to take -- come up to the battlefield

and start digging the foundation for the monument. the gbm a contacts the sheriff and said you have to arrest these guys, they are trespassing. now we are going to court. january 7, 1889, the veterans of the 72nd filed a bill in county court requesting that their committee be allowed to erect its monument where the agreement was made with the state commission at a hotel in harrisburg. sustains the gbma loses the case, it goes to the pennsylvania supreme court where you can read the testimony. the testimony i think is pretty strong against the 72nd's case, but they win. they win and there is their monument. about 20 feet back from the front line, right where they wanted it. it is a beautiful monument. it is a brilliant monument. there is hardly a visitor who

comes to gettysburg who looks at that monument and sent those -- and goes, those guys were on the front lines and they fought hand-to-hand. he's got the appraised rifle. -- the up raised rifle. bachelder got crushed in memory. but so did the vets that play by the rules. arthur devereaux, who was a major in the 19th massachusetts, he agreed they moved the monument back to the second line. he writes bachelder, what is the -- i permitted the removal of my regiment but not anticipating such a travesty of truth thereby. the gbma and bachelder were so stung by the defeat that they felt they owed the public an apology. this is what they issue.

the miss location of the 72nd monument is the only break, not really true, but they said it is the only break in the harmony of the entire field. it is the only act done for which we feel that an apology is required to be made to anyone. in so locating it a lot was misinterpreted. inferences were unjustifiably drawn. the association sought with save means of its power to commonwealth from an error which puts it in a false position before the entire time he, army of the potomac and therefore the entire country. as i said in this battle of memory the 72nd prevail. today 99.9% of the visitors know , nothing about what happened out there and no knowledge of this monument controversy. bachelder what have one final victory. in shaping the memory of this

battle. that was when the high water mark monument was erected. remember what it looked like in the photograph in 1882, that is what it looks like now after the high water mark monument and the iron fence. you can see the influence of bachelder in making this place a mecca on the battlefield, a place that immediately attracts visitors. you go up cemetery ridge and you see that monument you get out of the car and walk over because you know something important happened here. john vanderslice was the person bachelder -- the other thing they told bachelder is they said there is no money. you either pay for it out of your pocket or you get state legislatures to fund it. this is a guy who works. he is dogged.

he gets out there and he hassles -- he hustles for money. he writes that he personally prepared and discarded more than 20 different designs, made the contract, visited legislatures, secured appropriations, and paid bills precisely as though it was my private enterprise. the final design bachelder settled upon an open book on either side flanked by canon's, that's all part of the monument. the legend that he prepares in this big open book is typical of bachelder. it does not address the cause or concert ends of the battle except obliquely. in the inscription for commands honored which stated in recognition of the patriotism displayed by the respective troops who met or assisted to repulse assault. it was faith that made a contribution to the monuments.

in all the places on this the attack is referred to as long street's assault. bachelder identifies in the monument that this claps of trees was a landmark towards which long streets assault was directed in 1863. he got that from walter harrison in 1869 when he was sitting in the shade and harrison told him that. one thing bachelder did not win. we don't refer to it as long streets assault very often. almost always called pickett's charge. no matter how hard all the historians in this country have tried to huff and puff and blow down the high water mark of the civil war as being gettysburg, john bachelder prevailed there. that part of john bachelder

prevailed, he shaped how we remember gettysburg place in the war. particularly with this monument. to sum up, as we said, we could do a seminar on bachelder. we just touched the high points in his life and career here. what did he do, what was his vision? let's look at some of the things he did. he documented the battle. he mapped the battle in a way that no battle i am aware of was ever mapped up to that point in time. he marked the battlefield in a way that may no battlefield in the world has ever been mark. he promoted tourism on the field. he was the early guy who promote the fact that now today 1.5 million people have come to

gettysburg. he looked to the future in advocating how the field would be commemorated and marked and with what materials the monuments and memorials would be made out of. wise in his decision to mark the lines of battle and units had made contact. the battlefield is easy for people to imagine were troops were and more or less understand where the armies were by the system that bachelder helped layout. the last regimental monument was the 11th mississippi. we had a moratorium on monuments and they have some political clout and pushed it through. they adhere to the same policy. the principal monument is where they were in line of battle on west confederate avenue. then advance position marker or the abram byrum farm. finally bachelder was perhaps the most important advocate a library for the confederate lines which led to the creation

of a national battlefield commission and the military park. i spent the best heart of lifetime in developing and preserving gettysburg. what i would offer up is what was bachelder's vision for gettysburg? for tomorrow, walk on the battlefield. his vision for this place, his presence, it is gettysburg national military part. his presence surrounds you. thank you very much. >> [applause] >> if anybody has questions, we have a few minutes.

i know some of you are rushing out the door to see the game of thrones or the nba finals. i fully understand. if you have questions, i will be here. >> jim paradise, abington, pennsylvania. i'd love to get your take on this. at least one historian has said that when bachelder was told by the confederate staff officer that clump of trees on cemetery ridge was a landmark for long street's assault that was the , only time that anybody ever attributed to that clump of trees and they went on to argue that the confederate lines was -- from the confederate lines it was not visually consider it. what is your take on that? >> walter harrison was right. he was a staff officer with pickett. it would have been his job to know what the landmark was going

-- what the landmark the division was going to move towards was. it was not important for even colonels, company officers, those men didn't even need to know what the landmark was for the only people who needed to know would be brigade commanders, so they could instruct the regiment of direction as to where they were supposed to go. the argument that they could not see it, i have never understood that argument. if you go to the teacher or -- if you go to the peach orchard where lee come along street and the others observed the enemy lines and ultimately came up with the idea to attack the union center, you can't miss it. it sticks out like a sore thumb, the angle. the clumps of trees is a perfect landmark to guide a large force to hit in an area that you knew would be vulnerable to the union front.

there is no way robert e lee would have made a attack because pickett's men would've had to present their flank for hundreds of yards to the federals on cemetery ridge. what i would say is you don't need a lot of people to say that was the landmark. you need some key people to say and walter harrison said it and so did ep alexander who was the artillery commander for long street. both men who should have known what the landmark was. has the bachelder map or the war map been digitized? is digitized. map i believe it is on a library of congress website. i think the bachelder isometric map, i do not know if that is

digitized but his true position map, once for each day, the three maps, those are in the labyrinth congress website. did, i dos that he not know if you could find them, maybe on ebay. i do not take more inside is in operation anymore but they were selling them for a time. you can find map, those around. that's been reprinted many times. lewis caban, media, pennsylvania. i have a copy of the isometric map. there are a lot of signatures on the map. the president of gettysburg college seminary, chief engineer and the corps commanders. is, when was that map signed? it was painted and then had to be signed.

>> that's a good point. i don't know that there is an answer to that. bachelder said he spent the entire winter with the army of the potomac interviewing people to document their position but also working on his map. the one letter in the bachelder papers, he said i have examined his map and said it is accurate is hancock in the summer of 1863. what may have happened is he man -- he may have had a draft of the map finished before it went to the printer in 19, 1863. it was not printed until 1864. whether he sent a copy of the map to the army sometime in late winter and had all these people sign it, i don't know. a good question. >> thank you. >> williamsburg, virginia. you mentioned earlier that the 147th new york was not in the

correct location. i have an ancestor that fought and died at the railroad. he was in the 76th new york. is that in the correct location? >> that monument is in the correct location. >> you said they were lots of monuments that were in the wrong place. -- is thatt generally right? >> if i did say that i misspoke. lots of monuments in the wrong place. what i meant is that to try to make everybody adhere to this line of battle policy was a real challenge. one example is caldwell's division of the second core. if you are to place the monuments where my

interpretation of the line about policy places them they should be down your the pennsylvania monument. they are where they advanced to around with field. all of those monuments are advanced position monuments. that was a compromise. bachelder had to compromise on some of these things and the gbma. the 147th new york monument we talked about, bachelder very well may not have been the individual who approve where that monument was. did not approve every single thing that happened in the was a period where he was the superintendent of legends and tablets. there were other people in the gbma, who would work through these things and approve the monuments. henry lyman said they used bachelder's maps and his maps were in error. and that is why the monument ended up in the wrong location. i sympathize with bachelder.

i'm not trying to criticize him. it's a real challenge what you are dealing with all of these people. a lot of emotions about where they were. we want to be in such and such a place where we lost our buddies. you are trying to make them think to the future. making this battlefield understandable to people who will come beyond them. it's a tough sell. had to make compromises. another monument controversy in the program but when i kept reading to the program it was like an hour and 10 minutes long so i was like, got to go. the 12 futures he and 111th new york. -- the 12th new jersey and 111th new york. these guys were furious because it were putting the wall 11th monument on the front line. they were like, they want here. the 1/11 said we moved up during the fight. they went back and forth. ultimately they did the same thing with them that they did with the 72nd.

the one monument about 20 feet back from the other monument. that i personally think you can continue. can you compare and contrast mappingr's effort to and targeting money meant to other battlefields? >> the only other battlefield that compares is antietam. they have had remarkable individuals who were interested in documenting the battle. carmen became the government historian. carmen was the kernel. his maps of the battle of are some of the best

maps that have been prepared for any civil war battle. the only maps i would put at the very top is john hennessy's maps, which are unbelievable in the documentation he put into it. other than that, people in that era, carmen's mapping is unbelievable. they corresponded with men in every battery and they were very systematic. the one thing i forgot to mention about bachelder is that many of that chilled or's notes are lost -- many of the children's notes -- many of the bachelder's notes are lost. no sketches. none of that survives. that may have all burned up in the house. for it is possible that it could be scattered somewhere, but i

doubt it. besides the antietam people, really what other places are very well marked. they did an excellent job. they were ultimately following what bachelder had done. he laid the groundwork for what can be done. yeah? >> it seems like bachelder had a prominent position of for the battle. how did this stuff completely disappear until the 1950's? >> really good question. it did, it just happens with some people. it drifted into oblivion. , but forw his name some reason, no one was andrested until coddington trying to track down what he did

and if there were papers he left. >> thank you. >> all right. thank you very much, folks. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] the smithsonian national museum of african american history and culture opens its doors to the public for the first time on saturday, september 24. livecan history tv will be from the national mall starting at 8:00 a.m. eastern leading to dedication ceremony. speakers include president obama, the founder, first lady michelle obama, george h.w. bush and laura bush, john roberts, congressman john lewis, and smithsonian secretary david. live, september 24 the 8:00 a.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span3.

adams was not a good president. if his career had ended at the , i don'ts presidency think i would have written a book about impaired >> tonight on q&a, professor james talks itemshis book john quincy about the life of the sixth president of united states and his career after the presidency in the u.s. has represented its. isthe thing that strikes you that he is a politician. he has done whatever you do to win. he did not form alliances or do anything that you would do and noted to be able to persuade people who would otherwise not go along with your agenda to do so. and so, his four years in the white house were just pain. everything was hard. he achieved almost nothing. 8:00 eastern on

c-span's "q&a." coveredgibbons president nixon, ford, carter, reagan, george h.w. bush, and clinton at the white house correspondent with upi and reuters. he recalls what it was like to report on those presidencies. ofs 50 minute event was part -- we are now privileged to hear from gene gibbons, one of our nation's most distinguished journalists. his three decades in the white house, gibbons covered six presidencies and the major stories of our times. from watergate to defend's resignation, to jim carter and the iran hostage crisis, and clinton's impeachment. first with upi and then for