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tv   Apache Wars  CSPAN  October 1, 2016 8:50pm-10:01pm EDT

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tool to create video clips of your favorite debate moments to share on social media. not able to watch? listen live on the c-span radio app. it is free to download from the app store or google play. live coverage of the vice presidential debate, tuesday evening on c-span.org and the c-span radio app. >> historian paul andrew hudson talks about the prolonged conflict in the late 19 century between the apaches and the u.s. government. he describes the southwest as a volatile mix of conflicting interests among mexicans, american settlers, civil war soldiers, apache, and other native groups. he focuses on the apache leader mingus coloradus and his interactions with u.s. troops. his talk is about an hour and is sponsored by the kansas city public library. prof. hutton: good evening.
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welcome. >> my name is eli paul. it is my honor to introduce our speaker, paul andrew hutton. in keeping with his profession as a university professor, we are going to have a pop quiz. one question, pass/fail. here is the question. what do jeff chandler, charles bronson, rock hudson, and the incredibly blue-eyed burt lancaster all have in common? [indiscernible] >> i think i hear the answer, and the answer is all these men played apache indian leaders in the movies. jeff chandler played cochise, rock hudson played the son of cochise. chatto.was a shadow --
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for extra credit, answer this. what made those roles so attractive to these actors? could it be the epic nature of their struggle? keep those questions in mind. also keep those names in mind. maybe not the faces. the people may reappear as paul hutton tells us about our war with the apache tribes, america's longest. with an apache rate and the kidnapping of an arizona rancher's boy in 1861 and lasted more than a quarter of a century. with theing only ended 1886 surrender of geronimo, who by the way, was played by a real indian in the 1993 movie. ton looks back at this largely overlooked chapter in our history. this is an epic story by an
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accomplished narrator, a highly regarded professor of history at the university of new mexico and an award-winning author and television personality who has been in more than 200 television documentaries. tol's gift is his ability navigate the two great rivers of western history and popular culture of the west. as the former executive director of the western history association and the western writer of americas, he has roped in many students like me to help tell the story of the american west. now he has done so himself and his magnificent book, "the apache wars -- the hunt for geronimo, the apache kid, and the captive boy who started the longest war in american history." please welcome paul hutton. [applause] prof. hutton: thank you so much.
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it is great to be in kansas city . with all due respect for the great state of texas, there is no better barbecue. [applause] prof. hutton: not just in the united states, not just in the world, but in the universe. [laughter] [applause] i understand that there is a contention amongst the citizens of this fine city over which is the best barbecue. and i have very firm opinions on that myself, which i will keep to myself. [laughter] prof. hutton: since i am here to make friends. is story of the apache wars a story in which it is hard to inject humor. and i do say that often when i speak, my talks tend to be
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humorous, but i'm afraid it is difficult to have humor in this particular story. the story i'm going to tell you is a particularly grim and tragic episode of the apache wars. folks often ask me how i got interested in this topic. in a lot ofted western history, of course, and have been all my life. i got hooked in 1955 by walt disney, who converted a lot of children over to history. it was the program "davy crockett" that helps me -- and that hooked me. this program, i was thinking we could do all the verses of the song if you would like to. [laughter] prof. hutton: of course, that was the great heyday of the western imprint on television and film. one third of all hollywood's
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product were westerns in the 1950's and 1960's. someone played a blue-eyed geronimo in the 1960 film of the same name. a line western history was portrayed on the silver screen and on the television screen. and in writing. a lot of that writing was popular writing, so my challenge in writing the apache wars was different from what i had done in most of my career. i have done a lot of television. i have written for television, and a lot of popular magazine articles, but i had never written a book for a broad, popular audience, so this was a different journey that i went on. it was very challenging, took water years to research -- took four years to research and complete. it is doing well and i'm proud of it and relieved to have it done. i would say was story about that.
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i followed the numbers religiously, book sales, and i am waiting with bated breath for every review. i knew "the wall street journal" was going to review my book in their fabulous saturday book section, which i subscribe to come and it arrives at my door. so that saturday morning when i knew it was coming, i got up at 6:00 in the morning. the paper had not even been delivered yet. my bunny slippers on -- which i only take off to teach my classes. in my row in my slippers, got my cup of coffee, i was so nervous, i couldn't even open the paper. i saw the review was by s c gwynn, who has written a fabulous book about the comanches. in fact, the success of that book had gotten me my contract to write my book. and i often of mine
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wanted to take them out. i have never met him, but i want to get him a steak dinner and i'm a few drinks and thank him. i start reading the review. it is a very positive review. i must say, all the reviews have been very positive, although the academic reviews are not in yet. hisi'm reading it, and in -- it is the third paragraph that begins, carrier like -- hutton follows every skirmish and battle. life, i am noty his and his i used to be. four years, locked in a room all by myself, and i'm not really good company. and i'm compared to a small mammal. [laughter] worse,utton: and it is
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because at christmas, just the christmas before seven or eight months ago, we had acquired from the albuquerque animal shelter a , whoe carrier -- terrier we named annie oakley. throughhas cut a swathe every piece of furniture through our yard, through our irrigation system, through every possession that wouldswathe make attila the honda blush. so we have changed her name to chupacabra, the spanish name for double dog. dog.vil so i had a clear sense of what it terrier was, and being compared to one wounded immediately. i still hope to take them out one day, but he is getting iced .he -- tea
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i became interested in the story of the apache is when i was a kid, not long after i became fascinated by david crockett and started reading popular western history and children's books on the west. the book that hooked me was by oliver debarge. i remember it so distinctly october 1962, the height of the cuban missile crisis we had just returned from taiwan, where we had lived. my dad, a one word 2 bad, had retired from the air force. ii vet,d, a world war had retired from the air force. lost all of our furniture and goods and had failed to process the old man's retirement, and he needed his money because he had a big thirst and needed to fuel that at all times.
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and of course, it was the cuban missile crisis. it was that october that kennedy had put the embargo on the russian ships, and as a child, i could sense the anxiety of the who thought perhaps indeed that the whole world was going to be blown to smithereens that october. also, we were just in progress. we had no money -- we were just impoverished. we had no money, no furniture. we were living in a big empty farmhouse. my mom cannot afford anything for my birthday present, so she went to the kokomo public library. isn't that funny, how what has it been? 40 years, and it is still a top story to tell. she checked out that book,
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cochise of arizona, and wrapped it, gave it to me. of course, we had to take it back. [laughter] prof. hutton: but it is the best gift i ever got. and of course now i have a beautifully inscribed edition of that thelater learned author was a pulitzer prize-winning author on indians and thought my bone copy -- bought my own copy for my collection. cochise was the son-in-law of the great chief of all the chiricahua, and his name was mangus coloradus, red sleeves. they say the name came from how he -- his enemies blood covered his arms cured arms. the apaches had been fighting
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the spanish and mexicans for hundreds of years. -- when he met they make common war against a common enemy. the mexican government, which only rolled over the south -- what is now the american southwest -- for some 20 years, was very fragile. it really could not control its northern provinces. bans of, they had hired scalp hunters, many of whom were americans, who roamed throughout the southwest taking apaches as slaves and killing them and selling their scalps to the mexican authorities. the apaches, who were great people for vengeance, had a great score to settle. before he died at the beginning of the last century, they asked the geronimo if he had any
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regrets. , except that i did not kill more mexicans. so these were not folks who were forgiving and forgetting. the apaches were recent newcomers to the american southwest compared to the pueblo people of the rio grande river valley, compared to other tribes in the area. and in fact, for the western apaches, they may have reached what is now western arizona about the same time that the spanish did. they were raiding people, they prayed on their neighbors. they are the vikings of america. this,ade no apologies for and i don't believe historians should make apologies for them. if we can celebrate the vikings and what they did, we can certainly celebrate the great
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warrior tribe of the apaches. there were 8000, 9000 at the most. they lived in a harsh, unforgiving environment, and they knew it like they knew the back of their hands. they are not force indians -- horse indians, they are mountain people. they looked upon the forces of the spanish as food as much as transportation, but they did use them to carry their worriers deep into mexico for their rates -- raids. , the62, mangas coloradas great chief of the chiricahua's, who unlike any other chief had united all the people together, he had grown weary of war. since 1846, he had tried to keep the peace with the americans, but the americans had the trade that piece.
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party ofhen a raiding -- afterfrom the north cochise had been called into a peace conference and portrayed an apache pass, a young boy had been kidnapped from a ranch. he is the through character that runs through my whole book, and his kidnapping set in motion this great war that goes on for 25 years. he is in the war the entire way, first as an apache warrior than an army scout. irish, half mexican, redheaded, freckle faced, one i, quite eccentric and dangerous character. the is the only manager on a no ever feared. -- the only man
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that geronimo ever feared. smart was sent to demand that cochise return the boy. cochise said he did not have the boys but would find them. they tried to take cochise prisoner. he took his all family with him, and he managed to cut his way out and escape, but his brothers, nephew, and several other apaches were captured. a series of events followed in which bascom eventually hanged those apaches. so this set in motion 25 years war,r, unrelenting, brutal i were so brutal that in 1861 as union troops were withdrawn from arizona and new mexico to meet the federal -- confederate invasion of new mexico, arizona was completely to populated and the american frontier was thrown back, one of the few times in history that ever happened.
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mangus waged a great war against the americans, soon more american troops came. they came from california under general james carlton and they fought a great battle at apache pass, and the soldiers might have been destroyed except a soldier made a fortunate shot and shot mangas coloradas out of his horse. it took them, who is nearing 70 years old, a long time to recover from that wound. he retired. -- and he was tired more. as one gets older, one does get tired of these adventures. he wanted to make peace. he went to new mexico and sent out peace overtures to general carlton, but peace was the last thing carlton wanted. troopsarrived with 2000 to late to fight the rebels, so he was determined to fight the
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indians and destroy the apaches and the navajo once and for all. he would be successful against the navajo, but not so against the apaches, despite the event i'm about to describe. determined to end mangas coloradas'rule over the southwest, and so he sent out a message to one of his colonels, a man named joseph west. he said, mangas coloradas sent me word he wants peace, but i have no faith in him. peaceponse to mangas' overtures, carlton ordered west to organize next position -- organize and exposition against the apaches, who lived in the land which is now southwestern new mexico right around where silver city is in new mexico, just to the north of lawrenceburg.
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had been bornas in those mountains. and he told colonel west to launch a campaign against mangas was, and it was to be a black flag campaign. --en and children were to be no women and children were to be taken -- women and children were to be taken prisoner, but all males were to be killed. before colonel west could get the sports had all been abandoned at the beginning of the civil war when the troops had been withdrawn to fight the rebels. and while he was there, he sent out a message to find a man named jack's willie who carlton had taught him about. west assured carlton that's willing was at this over minds.
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and he was available for service. was a georgia native, a veteran of the mexican war. 1850's,ated to texas in but after deserting his family there, leaving a wife and baby behind, he had come west and got work with the butterfield stage company. theerfield was one of founders of the american express companies, still in business today. runot the mail contract to a mail route between the states and california. and the butterfield overland mail was critical to holding california in the union. and theire and mangas worriers shut down the butterfield mail and ended up new occasion with california. -- ended all communication with california. he then followed the gold rush into the mountains of southwestern new mexico and had opened a saloon.
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one of his partners with judge roy beam, who would later become famous down in texas. the man who laid out the town he named anton mills, and would later become a famous officer in the indian wars. at that time, he was a surveyor from indiana. and one of his brothers worked for the butterfield stage line and would be killed by the apaches during this time. prospered in the minds, but the apaches made life difficult for the miners, so they formed what were called the arizona guards, and these men were indeed is the scouting for apaches and trying to protect the settlements, but also soon joined up with the confederates. they went forward and met up with the yankees, who were coming from california.
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swillingdaring move, managed to capture the captain, who was in charge of the yankee advance guard, and he was taking him back to new mexico, which was unoccupied by rebel troops. and to tucson was also occupied by rebel troops at this time. as they are going back, they are dogged the apache's all around them, just like in a hollywood movie. the captaingives back his gun and says they have to fight their way through, and they become pals. by the time they get to the city in new mexico, the rebels are in retreat and the union army has won a big victory in the past. very wisely switches sides and becomes a dispatch writer and a scout for the new victorious union troops. just whenis there colonel west needs him.
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and so west hires swilling, who is a big guy with a real swagger to him, were a big summer arrow -- a big sombrero, long black hair, a real swashbuckling character. he is hired to meet with mangas coloradas. west sends a up, swilling up to penal zone those and there he made a remarkable group of adventurers were camped there. these men are gold hunters led by joe walker, who had led 20 mexico in hopes of reaching central arizona, where everyone suspected there was a mountain of gold. it was briefly the capital of territorial arizona. the only territorial capital ever named for a historian in
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the united states, which brings a tear to my eye. intor couldn't make it arizona with his men, because the apaches were everywhere. every pass through this rough, broken country was started by apache warriors. they were like ghosts. you could sense them, but they were all around you. all he could see was there smoke signals, and smoke signals were not really a means of communication, but it was a signal you sent up to say, i am here, calm -- come. visa signals were all around the men as they tried to get through the passes. they camped near the arizona line at a place called cook's canyon. they saw some nearby fires, and so they made their way over to them. they thought maybe they were signals and that the apaches
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wanted to talk, but the apaches had left a calling card for walker and his bold adventurers. three white men were called -- gruesomely bywn their ankles, their heads just a few inches above the smoldering fires that had been used to cook their brains. this caused even these tough characters to decide they would retreat back to pinos altos. this was a little too rough even for these guys. they attempted to find passage over the mountain, and each time that they were met with more scenes of horror. joseph walker was a living legend on the frontier. he came from an adventurous tennessee family. one of his brothers was killed fighting here in missouri, another was killed at the alamo. a tough family, and he
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himself had become one of the great mountain men, a companion of jim richard, broken hand fitzpatrick. carson andgone with the captain on two expeditions to california, and he had stayed there. but even though he was in his late 60's, he decided on this one last adventure, he knew there was gold in arizona, if only he could find it. he was trying one last time. so now, swilling joined up with this band and he convinced a skeptical walker that what they needed to do was capture mangas coloradas and hold him as hostage, and that would get them through the mountain passes to arizona. now, you just take i can, it is a really good drive -- take i-10 , it is really good drive. if you do take them through the
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mountains, you hit the flats where you come into arizona, that is where this action took place. there was so much death and destruction in that small little owner of the american southwest. swilling sent out messages to mangas coloradas to come in, and mangas did come in. swilling was the kind of guy the apache is appreciated. they liked him. he was just as bold as they were. they could tell he was a tough guy, son of a kindred spirit, so they liked him and they held a council in this ramshackle it'll community of pinos altos that had already been burned once by the apaches. and a swilling greeted mangas warmly. and he disguised his true feelings, because he noticed that mangas carried a shotgun that bore the initials of one of williams' best friends.
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his friend had a part of the arizona guard at the same time swilling had, but he had decided to make his way to california along with eight other companions. they only made it as far as apache pass in southeastern arizona, and then they were all butchered by the apaches there. and swilling, carrying dispatches for the army, have found their bodies. he recognized the shotgun that mangas carried as belonging to his friend. he disguised his anger and pretended friendship. wouldmised mangas that he open up negotiations with army for mangas and would bring him rations and supplies for his people, if you would come back and bring his people into pinos altos. mangas was delighted. finally, he got a positive response to his peace overtures. with hisack to meet people, because no decisions were made by the apache. these chiefs were not kings.
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everything was done by consensus , a pure democracy, not just with the apaches that with many of the native american tribes in the american west. and he called his people into counsel, and he met first with one. another,he met with both branches of the chiricahua people. he assured them that the white man in the settlements were sincere and they really wanted to make peace. this was the chance. their war was really with the mexicans, he reminded them, not with these americans. these americans were more powerful. they were people they could deal with. but a lot of skeptics, after what had happened to cochise at apache pass. ' protege,lar, mangas
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a young warrior named geronimo, who had gotten his name after his family had been butchered by militia and he had found his mother and his daughter and his children all scalped in pools of blood, and he had sworn vengeance against the mexicans. and this was the calling of his life. he devoted his entire life to making the mexicans pay for what they had done this family. thatfective was he at this he earned a new name, just like mangas coloradas has earned his name in warfare, so did goyathlay. the mexicans, in their grief and terror, called out to saint jerome for salvation from this great warrior as he waited in and slaughtered them. and he took the name geronimo. and geronimo said, you can't trust these people. they lie every time. don't go there, great chief, they will betray you.
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and geronimo said, this will end badly. but mangas was determined, and his word carry great weight. of course, a call to peace always was more comforting to so many than a call to war. ignored, and mangus won the people over to this peace overture. then he went and talked with wouldr leader, who also lead his people out on a great war trail in years to come, and victorio also was skeptical, but he agreed that mangas, but he said he would go with him as a bodyguard. and so geronimo took the rest of the people to sanctuary in arizona, and they waited while mangas and victorio and a few warriors went to meet with jack's willing at pinos altos -- jack swilling at pinos altos.
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there was a young kentucky prospector who had joined up with walker's expedition. cap,him, from a journal he we learn all the details of what happened at this sad rendezvous. swilling had convinced walker to meet with mangas and to try to take your prisoner. all of a sudden, as if it had been preplanned -- which it has -- something arrived from colonel west. cap insurer linda arrived with the company of troops. they now joined the minors and the frontiersman at pinos altos. they foisted a white flag. they conceal the soldiers in the buildings of the village, and they waited for mangas coloradas . around noon the next day, -- theg suddenly left suddenly leapt forth with the great work why -- war cry.
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mangas coloradas was approaching with his warriors. they shouted in spanish at each other. that was the language everyone used. at least the americans could speak spanish and almost all the apaches could speak spanish. finally, they came closer and closer and shook hands, and then swilling -- he had to reach up because mangas, unusual for an apache, even unusual for an american of this period -- was 6'6" call. and a swilling was six foot, but he was no match. he put his hand on his shoulder, and that was the signal to charlotte, and he and his troops step forward with their guns drawn and mangas realized he had been betrayed. he told victorio to back off. he said we are not dealing with mexicans here, these people are serious. he said to tell my people to look for me when they see me.
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as they entered the village, he was bound, he realized the full extent of his betrayal. jan connor watched all this. -- young connor watched all this. he felt the chief incredibly dignified in the face of this change of fortunes. he wrote his face wore an air of perplexity. dress consisted of a straw hat of mexican manufacturer, a checked cotton shirt, and a high pair of moccasins. mangas was apparently 50 years old. he was actually 70 years old, which shows what great shape he was in, and he was a large, athletic man with a large, with aad covered tremendously heavy growth of long hair that reached to his waist. his shoulders were broad and his chest full and muscular. his step was proud, and
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altogether, he presented quite a model of physical manhood. southng hurried his prize where general west awaited with the main column of troops. connor thought that west looks like a pygmy next to the old apache, and he felt some compassion or mangas, who looked careworn and refused to talk to colonel west, who was a short, stout little fellow and who went into a rage because mangas would not speak with. murdereded, you have your last white victim, you old scoundrel, and he ordered mangas confined in an old adobe shack. and bitterretreated cold set in, general west took the men of the evening guard aside. that oldo them, "man, murderer has got away with every soldier command and has left a trail of blood for 500 miles on
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the old dateline -- stage line. i want him dead or alive tomorrow morning. do you understand?" they understood. the walker party always kept a guard out at night, even though they were camping with this alters. it came to -- with the soldiers. a came to young daniel connor to be the guard that night. he could see the soldiers of the night guard were doing something with mangas, but every time he approached their campfire, the only campfire going all night, they settle back and stopped. finally, he went into the shadows and spied on them. what they were doing was heating the tips of their ban at in the ayonets in thebo fire and touching them to mangas ' legs. finally, he said he was not a
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child to be trifled with, and two men fired point-blank into the chief. two men came rushing in and fired a single shot into manga'' haeead. he then hurried into general west headquarters, and west is said, is he dead? he is, said the captain of the guard. very well, then let his guard go to sleep. and general west returned to his own bed, well satisfied with a good night's work. the next morning, connor watched and discussed as one of the california volunteers took a huge bowie knife and scalped mangas coloradas. he folded his long hair around the skin of his scalp and tucked it into his pocket. all the hollywood movies you have seen are incorrect. apaches did not scope. -- scalp. they had a terrible fear of
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ghosts and spirits, so they did not take scalps, or rarely would day. they also never raped. it was completely taboo. all the stories of women meeting of faith -- meeting a fate worse than death were not true. if they fell in love, that was a different story altogether. after he had been scalped, the soldiers rolled the body over into an arroyo and through some brush over it. this made their task easier when the sergeant arrived in order them to bring the corpse back up and beheaded. he boiled it ahead of mangas coloradas and a great pot. he took the skull with him, because this was the age of phrenology, the study of skulls. he felt that he had a grand scientific artifact.
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one california soldier thethlessly on theme, scroll of mingus colorado spirit it was described by the surgeon by closeness and bone structure. it possessed to complete sets of teeth in east -- each job. he carefully wrapped the skull in his baggage. he opened a medical practice in toledo, ohio. he gifted the schools with the professor. this is 1873 book. the head of mingus colorado's to be the shortest and broadest human skull i have ever seen,. actually wider than it was long. preferred -- the the professor announced it --
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who evidently had a big head. he was a politician so i guess you did. for some time, he kept the skull on public display, then it vanished and many said it went to the smithsonian, which still retains a large collection of the bones of the ancestors of many of our native american, fellow americans. on the same day of the murder of the great chief, general west ordered 20 to the back of peanut out toast in search of the apaches who would accompany mingus. wrote out intos cap to ensure wood to scout into the mountains along the river in search of indians. just as mingus's people were coming in. the company opened fire and killed 11 apaches, including the son of mingus colorado's. 25, inmorning of january the mountains above, they
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reported that they had killed nine indians, but no distinction by age or gender was named. and they returned to the fort with the scouts of the indians. west was well satisfied with his campaign, he let his soldiers back to the seed in 1863, january 25th. i must tell you in the long and tortured history of the struggle between the united dates of america and the native peoples for possession of this continent, few white men have ever matched the setting -- stunning level of apostasy -- hip hop -- hypocrisy. ngas hadthat been killed why a tempting to escape. show that even with
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a murderous indian, whose life is clearly forfeited why the good faith of the u.s. military authorities was in no way compromised. carlton readily accepted this tissue of the seat because he wanted to. ngas colorado's was the cause murderous than all others put together in the country. he wrote, and made clear the blackeason behind that flag policy towards the apaches. our troops that killed -- have killed mingus colorado's and i'm andl practicing hostility propose to do so until people can live and that country and -- with safety and is
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always about gold. gold, gold, gold. general west would serve in the civil war, at the end of the war he would be given the honorary rank of major general and the united states army. he returned to louisiana, his birthplace in 1866 and was elected to the united states senate in 1971. he died in 1898 and was born along -- and was buried along true americans at arlington cemetery. he would continue to buccaneer his way through arizona history. he let the walker party to central area's owner where there arizona weather was a mountain of gold. anyona has more gold than of them ever could have
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imagined. he became very wealthy. he helped build irrigation along the salt river and founded phoenix, arizona. which is the capital of the state of arizona. he wanted to name the new community stonewall after his hero from the unpleasantness between states. phoenix became the name of that community. jack had an affinity for whiskey and it was compounded by even greater addiction. this made him a most unpleasant fellow when under the influence. he became one of those characters, everyone kind of like, but he was dangerous to be around that they decided they had to get rid of him. they framed him for a stagecoach robbery and sent him off to yuma prison. immediatelyost following the trial. -- too bad general
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west cannot be there with them. the murder of mingus infuriated the apaches. he had anger. this is the murder of his father-in-law, his mentor and he swore he would kill the white eyes, as they called the americans, for every apache that died. he kept that promise. for another two years he raged an unrelenting war against the americans. even more disturbing to cochise and his people was the cruel s'body.tion of menga this forever changed their warfare with the white eyes. to an apache, the mutilation of a body is much worse than death because the body must go through paternity in the mutilated condition. thate did white eyes know
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mingusey mutilated colorado's, while there was little mutilation, because they do not want to touch dead bodice. -- bodies. it was nothing that was going to follow. mingus colorado's, while there was littlethe killing of an unarmedn was in an incomprehensible act. infinitely worse was the desecration of the body. to geronimo, it was simply the greatest of wrongs. not long after the death of came., an army patrol deadetreated with two men on the field, including the lieutenant. the apaches cut off the lieutenant head and carried it off.
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the first blood paid in atonement for the severn -- severed head of mingus colorado's. blood told be much follow for another quarter century. thank you very much. [applause] >> questions? >> i will start it off paul. what sort of sources from the indian side of the story did you have too used to tell your story? eli paul: it -- prof. hutton: native people have an oral history. they remember things in a way that we, addicted to writing as we are, do not have. i think in example of -- if you try to understand how oral
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tradition works and how people can remember conversation and pass them down through generations even, is to remember that one of the greatest pieces of literature of western civilization is the poetry of homer. untilwas never published hundreds of years after homer had died. reputation cap that story alive, just in the same way that apache origins kept alive therefore -- their versions of wars. this wonderful teacher broke in newe reservations mexico during the 1940's and 1950's. she befriended several of the old apaches who had been even -- children, and she got from them the stories of their days. she left a treasure trove. her history was highly
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controversial. dismiss her history, if you dismiss her history, you dismiss much of what we know from the apache point of view. i embrace through history and i used it. affect in theld blood. i cannot remember conversations i had last month. i know someone remembering a conversation they had when they were 10, that they over her when they were 10 will not be exactly accurate. . at also read a lot of memoirs and they are not exactly accurate. that is just the nature of sources. as a historian you just have to be judicious in the sources that you use and just pick the best ones. and the ones that can help bring your stories to life. she was a big hero of mine and save the apache story.
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anything else? >> could you comment on how historical the tom jefferson novel is that the movie "broken arrow" is based on? both you comment on that as fiction and history? that was the story in the little book my mother gave me for my birthday back in october 1962. the story is a friendship between a rugged frontier who was running the merrill -- mailroom. all of his writers for getting killed. were getting killed. no mail was getting to tucson so he used logic, he was from new york and was in the great lakes
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ships action before the war. he went in and met cochise and cochise was so impressed by his bravery that they became friends. they in fact became, eventually it would said, blood brothers. immortalized in a wonderful novel, which i recommend to everyone, let brother, which was made into the motion picture with jeff , broken arrow was also made into a television series. as -- he was cochise and john lupton was tom jeffers. one of the delights buy this book was that the story was absolutely true. dispute it,ans especially my academic colleagues, because it is too good. sometimes things are just too good, and i am sorry, but they are also too true.
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things andabulous that is what makes history so exciting. that's what makes being a historian so exciting and rewarding. one of the great delights of writing the book was to discover that the story was true and is the centerpiece of my book. >> what effect did the indian on the reservation system that developed later that centry? there were no reservations at the time. president, he bubbled all of his army readies by being incredibly sympathetic towards the natives. he establishes what's called grants peace policy. it was the idea that reservations would be set up and eventually native americans
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hasd be taught the arts of injury and of course christianize. he turned his indian policy over to the quakers. you can imagine how quakers were their message of peace and love to help people like the comanches and the apaches, who just did not quite get it. nevertheless, grant was so well-meaning and the reservation system grew out of that. actually, it was in many ways a fraud, even though he was sincere. as long as you stayed on that reservation, obeyed the rules and did what your religious overlords did, you would be ok. the years of the grant administration are some of the greatest of the indian wars. as itlly was a war policy was a peace policy. that was indeed the beginning of the reservation system.
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and the reservations bikes and carlos that were established in arizona, these mountain people were taken out of a mountain paradise where they lived and malariadown to these ridden flats where they suffered terribly. die like atter to man in the mountains than to die here on this ghastly reservation. can you confirm or deny what happened to geronimo's goal after his death? is quite an: this controversy. a few years ago we went through a mania. i think they even dug up zachary taylor. they are digging up everybody. they dug up jesse james around here. this is what forensic science has brought us to, dna testing. there was talk of digging up geronimo because there was a aory that the ancestor of
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president had taken geronimo's goal he was buried. eventually the apaches were all prisoned as- in prisoners of war. we hear a lot about japanese internment, it is a great block on american history and an embarrassment to us all. ofy were kept as reserves war from most a quarter of a century, almost far longer than japanese americans were interned. they really suffered. weregeronimo died they able to choose oklahoma or two jews to return, not to arizona but to new mexico. many of them did. the story of geronimo's body the skullup and took
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comment that is what they celebrated. i do not know if they got geronimo skull but i am willing to believe all kinds of really bad stuff goes on in secret at yell. ale. isn't that were all of our recent presidents have come from? i heard president obama comes from harvard so i guess he gets a pass. the apache still wanted to establish their homeland by silver city where geronimo was born. him where heo bury was born. i think that is a wonderful idea. they want to do it all with their own money. they don't want money from the government. a have a casino in oklahoma that is doing ok. they are opposed by the other tribes in new mexico because they have a lot of casinos and nobody wants competition. it comes by controversy.
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>> i am wondering what the native american indian reactions have been to your book. aren't they in agreement to what you have said? are they appreciate is, or are they otherwise? prof. hutton: i have not received any harsh criticism. peoplecan imagine, all have strong reactions to other people writing their history. do we want brits writing our history? i don't think so. i think there is a natural reaction by many -- native people that they want to can troll their story -- controlled her story. it is taken so seriously that's why we have such big debates about it. especially in a nation such as
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ours, where we come from so many different places. so many different races, and we are trying to make this thing work. there is always going to be a contest over that strain of control. i think i was very fair. i tried to be very balanced and portray the -- whites as completely evil as i did general west. it is tough. all, evenstory of worse than this was at the very end of the conflict they decided that the only way to beat the apaches was to remove all of them to prisons in florida. men, women and children. that is exactly what they did. removal theyid the brought several other apache leaders back to me with the president of the -- the united
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states, grover cleveland. they offered them the opportunity to go to the territory. they said they wanted to stay in their homeland. president cleveland gave them peace metals. geronimo's best warriors but had come over to the whites and had been instrumental in hunting down geronimo. now he was the leader of his people, representation of his people. tested did not have a grover cleveland piece metal, so he got a chester arthur piece metal. medal.e him on a train and gave orders that they were to be immediately taken to residents.
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medal around their neck. i came out of the bunker on that one. i am getting old, jaded and cynical about our government. i never liked grover cleveland anyway. [laughter] end of any remote affection i had for the president who was known as grover the good act in the day. one more question, kind of silly. prof. hutton: no questions on history are silly. crockett think davy was born on a mountaintop in tennessee? [laughter] prof. hutton: race in the woods says he knew every tree, and he was only three. that is all i am doing. [applause] >> i understand that only a few copies of the book are still for sale, however there are
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bookplates that he signed and he will sign the other books as well. ksease give another than to our speaker tonight. [applause] >> interested in american visit our website. you can see our upcoming schedule. ofrican artifacts, lectures history and more. at c-span.org/history. what makes movies or stories or in aople in crisis, crisis and the crisis either changes them or changes everybody else.
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if you do not show conflicts, and if you do not show flaws, and if you do not show someone growing out of their flaws, or something like that, you are seeing something that you cannot connect to and it does not have the same impact. night, editor of commentary magazine and will be reviewer for the weekly standard talks about the movies he reviewed. ranging from lincoln, spotlight two straight out of compton. itself as a update of the classic story of how the band got together and recorded its big hits was pretty strikingly effective. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's q and a. all weekend long, american history tv is joining our comcast cable partners to showcase the history of pueblo, colorado.
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to learn more about the cities on our current tour visit c-span.org/cities force. we continue with our look at the history of pueblo. >> the pueblo railroad museum houses several cars that tell the history of railway and pueblo and other parts of the southwest. it was used in the 1970's at the u.s. department of transportation's test track near pueblo. at 330 west d street in pueblo, colorado. this is our maintenance shop. this is where we work. we bring everything over here to be worked on and repaired, then go back over to the main museum. we also keep our locomotive's year and these high-speed test trains that are behind us, they stay here, because there is nowhere else to put them. this one is the air road train.
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it was designed in paris france. he is -- paris, france. he is the one that they'll be ae ro train. this was designed and built in chula vista, california. it was tested and when they got through with it, they did not want it anymore so it went to the aircraft museum. it is a successful failure. it did everything it was supposed to do, but it cost too much to rail. a costs 15 million to build it. it runs a monorail hovercraft. when it comes up on the cushions, on the air cushions, you can put your hand on and push it. is that lightweight. about 50-60,000 pounds. on the cushions it weighs nothing. hass 94 feet long and it top speed of 175 and they got it up to 150 before they finish
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testing with it. another thing that made it a failure was, they had to have a substation for electricity every five miles. it took 2700 kilowatts of power. this is called the grumman tl rb, track levitated research vehicle. it says on the side of it, federal railroad administration. it has nothing to do with the train whatsoever. when we were trying to get it in approval i had to get ownership of it. i got a hold of a guy in washington dc. he asked me how i knew about it. and he said how did you get in the building, i said it is not in the building it is in the aircraft museum. he about had a heart attack. sent i talked to him, i him a picture of where it was sitting. they declassified the machine but not the results. he told me a little bit of information that was verified by a man in the smithsonian, and verified by a man that worked on
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it on the test track. it was used for aerodynamic testing for this they shuttle. if you look at it, you will see the shape of the spatial. it ran about 300 miles per hour. there is propulsion jets, another jet on the inside that was used to levitated. it ran any chattel of gas channel of concrete. kind of like this. it ran in that and the side pieces kept it off the walls and the ones on the bottom lifted it up. this is called a garrett. it is called a limb. it ran on motors. on the back end it says maglev. it was brought from the aircraft museum for mag 11 initiative. what it did, they were trying to see how fast he could run on the trails without coming off of them. for a long time it broke the
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speed record at 254.8. it was done out here at the test center. all three of them ran at the test center in the early 70's. to stop this thing was funny. they had a reverse tail hook on the back, it went under the cable at the end of the run. when it grab the cable it was pulling a thousand feet of cable on each side of the tracks. that's how they slowed it down. all three of the machines are one of a kind. they only built one, only tested one and no other ones were built. it is the only one left. when you get one-of-a-kind, that makes them even more special. >> this weekend we are featuring the history of pueblo, colorado together with our comcast cable partners. learn more about pueblo and other stops on our city store at c-span.org/cities tour. americanatching history tv, all weekend, every
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weekend on c-span3. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] president will be president donald trump. in the hillary clinton white house, the rest of the world will never forget why they have always looked up to the united dates of american. house road to the right -- white house debate between the vice presidents in farmville, virginia. beginning at seven: 30 p.m. eastern with a preview of the debate. at 8:30 the briefing for the audience. at 9:00 p.m. live coverage of the debate followed by reaction. the 2016 vice presidential debate, watch live on c-span. watch live anytime at c-span.org and listen on the c-span radio app.
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>> next, on american history tv. bigs. army from from the picture series. a nation built under fire. a nation built a society in the midst of war. introduced by hubert humphrey and narrated by actor john wayne. >> the vice president of the united states. i have justmphrey: been looking over some of the sketches made in vietnam for the motion picture you are about to see. these are wonderfully strong pictures, they capture the spirit of the people of that country. one.take a look at this throughout vietnam you see strong faces like this, determined and patient. the story, the hope in the determination of these brave people

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