since luisa adams or will we have the first first man? now available in paperback, "first ladies" gives the history and impact of every first lady in american history. it features interviews from the leading first lady historians. each chapter also offers brief biographies of 45 presidential fromes and archival photos their lives. published by public affairs, it is now available at your favorite bookseller and also as an e-book. historian paul andrew hutton talks about the prolonged conflict between the apaches and the u.s. government. he describes thesouthwest as a volatile mix of conflicting interests among mexicans, american settlers, civil war soldiers, apache, and other native groups. he focuses on the apache leader

mingus coloradus and his interactions with u.s. troops. his talk is about an hour and is sponsored by the kansas city public library. >> my name is eli paul. it is my honor to introduce our speaker, paul andrew hutton. in keeping with his profession as a university professor, we are going to have a pop quiz. one question, pass/fail. here is the question. what do jeff chandler, charles bronson, rock hudson, and the incredibly blue-eyed burt lancaster all have in common? [indiscernible] >> i think i hear the answer, and the answer is all these men played apache indian leaders in the movies. jeff chandler played cochise,

rock hudson played the son of cochise. bronson was a shadow -- chatto. for extra credit, answer this. what made those roles so attractive to these actors? could it be the epic nature of their struggle? keep those questions in mind. also keep those names in mind. maybe not the faces. the people may reappear as paul hutton tells us about our war with the apache tribes, america's longest. it all began with an apache rate and the kidnapping of an arizona rancher's boy in 1861 and lasted more than a quarter of a century. the fighting only ended with the 1886 surrender of geronimo, who by the way, was played by a real indian in the 1993 movie. paul hutton looks back at this largely overlooked chapter in our history. this is an epic story by an accomplished narrator, a highly regarded professor of history at the university of new mexico and an award-winning author and television personality who has been in more than 200 television documentaries. paul's gift is his ability to navigate the two great rivers of western history and popular culture of the west. as the former executive director of the western history

association and the western writer of americas, he has roped in many students like me to help tell the story of the american west. now he has done so himself and his magnificent book, "the apache wars -- the hunt for geronimo, the apache kid, and the captive boy who started the longest war in american history." please welcome paul hutton. [applause]

prof. hutton: thank you so much. it is great to be in kansas city. with all due respect for the great state of texas, there is no better barbecue. [applause] prof. hutton: not just in the united states, not just in the world, but in the universe. [laughter] [applause] prof. hutton: i understand that there is a contention amongst the citizens of this fine city over which is the best barbecue. and i have very firm opinions on that myself, which i will keep to myself. [laughter] prof. hutton: since i am here to

make friends. the story of the apache wars is a story in which it is hard to inject humor. and i do say that often when i speak, my talks tend to be humorous, but i'm afraid it is difficult to have humor in this particular story. the story i'm going to tell you is a particularly grim and tragic episode of the apache wars. folks often ask me how i got interested in this topic. i am interested in a lot of western history, of course, and have been all my life. i got hooked in 1955 by walt disney, who converted a lot of children over to history. it was the program "davy crockett" that helps me -- and that hooked me. at the end of this program, i was thinking we could do all the verses of the song if you would like to. [laughter]

prof. hutton: of course, that was the great heyday of the western imprint on television and film. one third of all hollywood's product were westerns in the 1950's and 1960's. someone played a blue-eyed geronimo in the 1960 film of the same name. a line western history was portrayed on the silver screen and on the television screen. and in writing. a lot of that writing was popular writing, so my challenge in writing the apache wars was different from what i had done in most of my career. i have done a lot of television. i have written for television, and a lot of popular magazine articles, but i had never written a book for a broad, popular audience, so this was a different journey that i went on. it was very challenging, took water years to research -- took

four years to research and complete. it is doing well and i'm proud of it and relieved to have it done. i would say was story about that. i followed the numbers religiously, book sales, and i am waiting with bated breath for every review. i knew "the wall street journal" was going to review my book in their fabulous saturday book section, which i subscribe to come and it arrives at my door. so that saturday morning when i knew it was coming, i got up at 6:00 in the morning. the paper had not even been delivered yet. my bunny slippers on -- which i only take off to teach my classes. i padded out in my row in my slippers, got my cup of coffee, i was so nervous, i couldn't even open the paper. i saw the review was by s c gwynn, who has written a fabulous book about the comanches.

in fact, the success of that book had gotten me my contract to write my book. he is a hero of mine and i often wanted to take them out. i have never met him, but i want to get him a steak dinner and i'm a few drinks and thank him. i start reading the review. it is a very positive review. i must say, all the reviews have been very positive, although the academic reviews are not in yet. but i'm reading it, and in his -- it is the third paragraph that begins, carrier like -- terrier-like, hutton follows every skirmish and battle. four years of my life, i am not his and his i used to be. four years, locked in a room all by myself, and i'm not really good company. and i'm compared to a small mammal. [laughter] prof. hutton: and it is worse, because at christmas, just the

christmas before seven or eight months ago, we had acquired from the albuquerque animal shelter a little carrier -- terrier, who we named annie oakley. and she has cut a swather through every piece of furniture through our yard, through our irrigation system, through every possession we have, a swathe that would make attila the honda blush. so we have changed her name to chupacabra, the spanish name for double dog. -- devil dog. so i had a clear sense of what it terrier was, and being compared to one wounded immediately. i still hope to take them out

one day, but he is getting iced the -- tea. i became interested in the story of the apache is when i was a kid, not long after i became fascinated by david crockett and started reading popular western history and children's books on the west. the book that hooked me was by oliver debarge. i remember it so distinctly because it was october 1962, the height of the cuban missile crisis we had just returned from taiwan, where we had lived. my dad, a one word 2 bad, had retired from the air force. -- my dad, a world war ii vet, had retired from the air force. they had lost all of our furniture and goods and had failed to process the old man's retirement, and he needed his money because he had a big thirst and needed to fuel that at all times. and of course, it was the cuban missile crisis. it was that october that kennedy

had put the embargo on the russian ships, and as a child, i could sense the anxiety of the adults who thought perhaps indeed that the whole world was going to be blown to smithereens that october. also, we were just in progress. we had no money -- we were just impoverished. we had no money, no furniture. we were living in a big empty farmhouse. my mom cannot afford anything for my birthday present, so she went to the kokomo public library.

isn't that funny, how what has it been? 40 years, and it is still a top story to tell. she checked out that book, cochise of arizona, and wrapped it, gave it to me. of course, we had to take it back. [laughter] prof. hutton: but it is the best gift i ever got. and of course now i have a beautifully inscribed edition of that and later learned that the author was a pulitzer prize-winning author on indians and thought my bone copy -- bought my own copy for my collection. cochise was the son-in-law of the great chief of all the chiricahua, and his name was

mangus coloradus, red sleeves. they say the name came from how he -- his enemies blood covered his arms cured arms. the apaches had been fighting the spanish and mexicans for hundreds of years. and when he met -- they make common war against a common enemy. the mexican government, which only rolled over the south -- what is now the american southwest -- for some 20 years, was very fragile. it really could not control its northern provinces. to do so, they had hired bans of scalp hunters, many of whom were americans, who roamed throughout

the southwest taking apaches as slaves and killing them and selling their scalps to the mexican authorities. the apaches, who were great people for vengeance, had a great score to settle. before he died at the beginning of the last century, they asked the geronimo if he had any regrets. he said, no, except that i did not kill more mexicans. so these were not folks who were forgiving and forgetting. the apaches were recent newcomers to the american southwest compared to the pueblo people of the rio grande river valley, compared to other tribes in the area. and in fact, for the western apaches, they may have reached

what is now western arizona about the same time that the spanish did. they were raiding people, they prayed on their neighbors. they are the vikings of america. they made no apologies for this, and i don't believe historians should make apologies for them. if we can celebrate the vikings and what they did, we can certainly celebrate the great warrior tribe of the apaches. there were 8000, 9000 at the most. they lived in a harsh, unforgiving environment, and they knew it like they knew the back of their hands. they are not force indians -- horse indians, they are mountain people. they looked upon the forces of the spanish as food as much as transportation, but they did use

them to carry their worriers deep into mexico for their rates -- raids. by 1862, mangas coloradas, the great chief of the chiricahua's, who unlike any other chief had united all the people together, he had grown weary of war. since 1846, he had tried to keep the peace with the americans, but the americans had the trade that piece. in 1861 when a raiding party of aravaipa from the north -- after cochise had been called into a peace conference and portrayed an apache pass, a young boy had been kidnapped from a ranch. he is the through character that runs through my whole book, and his kidnapping set in motion this great war that goes on for 25 years. he is in the war the entire way, first as an apache warrior than an army scout. he was half irish, half mexican, redheaded, freckle faced, one i, quite eccentric and dangerous character. the is the only manager on a no ever feared.

-- the only man that geronimo ever feared. smart was sent to demand that cochise return the boy. cochise said he did not have the boys but would find them. they tried to take cochise prisoner. he took his all family with him, and he managed to cut his way out and escape, but his brothers, nephew, and several other apaches were captured. a series of events followed in which bascom eventually hanged those apaches. so this set in motion 25 years of war, unrelenting, brutal war, i were so brutal that in 1861 as union troops were withdrawn from arizona and new mexico to meet the federal -- confederate invasion of new mexico, arizona was completely to populated and the american frontier was thrown back, one of the few times in

history that ever happened. as cochise and mangus waged a great war against the americans, soon more american troops came. they came from california under general james carlton and they fought a great battle at apache pass, and the soldiers might have been destroyed except a soldier made a fortunate shot and shot mangas coloradas out of his horse. it took them, who is nearing 70 years old, a long time to recover from that wound. and he retired. -- and he was tired more. as one gets older, one does get tired of these adventures. he wanted to make peace. he went to new mexico and sent out peace overtures to general carlton, but peace was the last thing carlton wanted. he had arrived with 2000 troops

to late to fight the rebels, so he was determined to fight the indians and destroy the apaches and the navajo once and for all. he would be successful against the navajo, but not so against the apaches, despite the event i'm about to describe. carlton was determined to end mangas coloradas'rule over the southwest, and so he sent out a message to one of his colonels, a man named joseph west. he said, mangas coloradas sent me word he wants peace, but i have no faith in him. in response to mangas' peace overtures, carlton ordered west to organize next position -- organize and exposition against the apaches, who lived in the land which is now southwestern new mexico right around where

silver city is in new mexico, just to the north of lawrenceburg. mangas coloradas had been born in those mountains. and he told colonel west to launch a campaign against mangas ' chiricahua was, and it was to be a black flag campaign. women and children were to be -- no women and children were to be taken -- women and children were to be taken prisoner, but all males were to be killed. before colonel west could get 250 troops up, the sports had all been abandoned at the beginning of the civil war when the troops had been withdrawn to fight the rebels. and while he was there, he sent

him out a message to find a man named jack's willie who carlton had taught him about. west assured carlton that's willing was at this over minds. and he was available for service. jack swilling was a georgia native, a veteran of the mexican war. had migrated to texas in 1850's, but after deserting his family there, leaving a wife and baby behind, he had come west and got work with the butterfield stage company. butterfield was one of the founders of the american express companies, still in business today. he got the mail contract to run a mail route between the states and california. and the butterfield overland

mail was critical to holding california in the union. and cochise and mangas and their worriers shut down the butterfield mail and ended up new occasion with california. -- ended all communication with california. he then followed the gold rush into the mountains of southwestern new mexico and had opened a saloon. one of his partners with judge roy beam, who would later become famous down in texas. the man who laid out the town was named anton mills, and he would later become a famous officer in the indian wars. at that time, he was a surveyor from indiana. and one of his brothers worked for the butterfield stage line and would be killed by the apaches during this time. well, swilling prospered in the minds, but the apaches made life difficult for the miners, so

they formed what were called the arizona guards, and these men were indeed is the scouting for apaches and trying to protect the settlements, but also soon joined up with the confederates. they went forward and met up with the yankees, who were coming from california. and in a daring move, swilling managed to capture the captain, who was in charge of the yankee advance guard, and he was taking him back to new mexico, which was unoccupied by rebel troops. and to tucson was also occupied by rebel troops at this time. as they are going back, they are dogged the apache's all around them, just like in a hollywood movie. he actually gives the captain back his gun and says they have to fight their way through, and they become pals. by the time they get to the city in new mexico, the rebels are in retreat and the union army has won a big victory in the past. swilling very wisely switches sides and becomes a dispatch writer and a scout for the new victorious union troops.

and so he is there just when colonel west needs him. and so west hires swilling, who is a big guy with a real swagger to him, were a big summer arrow -- a big sombrero, long black hair, a real swashbuckling character. he is hired to meet with mangas coloradas. he sends them up, west sends a swilling up to penal zone those and there he made a remarkable group of adventurers were camped there. these men are gold hunters led by joe walker, who had led 20 men into new mexico in hopes of reaching central arizona, where everyone suspected there was a mountain of gold. it was briefly the capital of territorial arizona. the only territorial capital ever named for a historian in the united states, which brings a tear to my eye. walker couldn't make it into

arizona with his men, because the apaches were everywhere. every pass through this rough, broken country was started by apache warriors. they were like ghosts. you could sense them, but they were all around you. all he could see was there smoke signals, and smoke signals were not really a means of communication, but it was a signal you sent up to say, i am here, calm -- come. visa signals were all around the men as they tried to get through the passes. they camped near the arizona line at a place called cook's canyon. they saw some nearby fires, and

so they made their way over to them. they thought maybe they were signals and that the apaches wanted to talk, but the apaches had left a calling card for walker and his bold adventurers. three white men were called -- hung upside down gruesomely by their ankles, their heads just a few inches above the smoldering fires that had been used to cook their brains. this caused even these tough characters to decide they would retreat back to pinos altos. this was a little too rough even for these guys. they attempted to find passage over the mountain, and each time that they were met with more scenes of horror.

joseph walker was a living legend on the frontier. he came from an adventurous tennessee family. one of his brothers was killed fighting here in missouri, another was killed at the alamo. it was a tough family, and he himself had become one of the great mountain men, a companion of jim richard, broken hand fitzpatrick. and he had gone with carson and the captain on two expeditions to california, and he had stayed there. but even though he was in his late 60's, he decided on this one last adventure, he knew there was gold in arizona, if only he could find it. he was trying one last time. so now, swilling joined up with this band and he convinced a skeptical walker that what they

needed to do was capture mangas coloradas and hold him as hostage, and that would get them through the mountain passes to arizona. now, you just take i can, it is a really good drive -- take i-10 , it is really good drive. if you do take them through the mountains, you hit the flats where you come into arizona, that is where this action took place. there was so much death and destruction in that small little owner of the american southwest. swilling sent out messages to mangas coloradas to come in, and mangas did come in. swilling was the kind of guy the apache is appreciated. they liked him. he was just as bold as they were. they could tell he was a tough guy, son of a kindred spirit, so they liked him and they held a council in this ramshackle it'll community of pinos altos that had already been burned once by the apaches. and a swilling greeted mangas warmly. and he disguised his true feelings, because he noticed that mangas carried a shotgun that bore the initials of one of

williams' best friends. his friend had a part of the arizona guard at the same time swilling had, but he had decided to make his way to california along with eight other companions. they only made it as far as apache pass in southeastern arizona, and then they were all butchered by the apaches there. and swilling, carrying dispatches for the army, have found their bodies.

he recognized the shotgun that mangas carried as belonging to his friend. he disguised his anger and pretended friendship. he promised mangas that he would open up negotiations with army for mangas and would bring him rations and supplies for his people, if you would come back and bring his people into pinos altos. mangas was delighted. finally, he got a positive response to his peace overtures. he went back to meet with his people, because no decisions were made by the apache. these chiefs were not kings. everything was done by consensus , a pure democracy, not just with the apaches that with many of the native american tribes in the american west. and he called his people into

counsel, and he met first with one. and then he met with another, both branches of the chiricahua people. he assured them that the white man in the settlements were sincere and they really wanted to make peace. this was the chance. their war was really with the mexicans, he reminded them, not with these americans. these americans were more powerful. they were people they could deal with. but a lot of skeptics, after what had happened to cochise at apache pass. in particular, mangas' protege, a young warrior named geronimo, who had gotten his name after his family had been butchered by militia and he had found his mother and his daughter and his children all scalped in pools of blood, and he had sworn vengeance against the mexicans. and this was the calling of his life. he devoted his entire life to making the mexicans pay for what they had done this family. so effective was he at this that he earned a new name, just like mangas coloradas has earned his name in warfare, so did goyathlay. the mexicans, in their grief and terror, called out to saint jerome for salvation from this great warrior as he waited in and slaughtered them. and he took the name geronimo. and geronimo said, you can't trust these people. they lie every time. don't go there, great chief,

they will betray you. and geronimo said, this will end badly. but mangas was determined, and his word carry great weight. of course, a call to peace always was more comforting to so many than a call to war. geronimo was ignored, and mangus won the people over to this peace overture. then he went and talked with another leader, who also would lead his people out on a great war trail in years to come, and victorio also was skeptical, but he agreed that mangas, but he said he would go with him as a bodyguard. and so geronimo took the rest of

the people to sanctuary in arizona, and they waited while mangas and victorio and a few warriors went to meet with jack's willing at pinos altos -- jack swilling at pinos altos. there was a young kentucky prospector who had joined up with walker's expedition. from him, from a journal he cap, we learn all the details of what happened at this sad rendezvous. swilling had convinced walker to meet with mangas and to try to take your prisoner. all of a sudden, as if it had been preplanned -- which it has -- something arrived from colonel west. cap insurer linda arrived with the company of troops. they now joined the minors and the frontiersman at pinos altos. they foisted a white flag. they conceal the soldiers in the buildings of the village, and they waited for mangas coloradas.

around noon the next day, swilling suddenly left -- the suddenly leapt forth with the great work why -- war cry. mangas coloradas was approaching with his warriors. they shouted in spanish at each other. that was the language everyone used. at least the americans could speak spanish and almost all the apaches could speak spanish. finally, they came closer and closer and shook hands, and then swilling -- he had to reach up because mangas, unusual for an apache, even unusual for an american of this period -- was 6'6" call. and a swilling was six foot, but he was no match. he put his hand on his shoulder, and that was the signal to charlotte, and he and his troops step forward with their guns drawn and mangas realized he had

been betrayed. he told victorio to back off. he said we are not dealing with mexicans here, these people are serious. he said to tell my people to look for me when they see me. as they entered the village, he was bound, he realized the full extent of his betrayal. jan connor watched all this. -- young connor watched all this. he felt the chief incredibly dignified in the face of this change of fortunes. he wrote his face wore an air of perplexity. his dress consisted of a straw hat of mexican manufacturer, a checked cotton shirt, and a high pair of moccasins.

mangas was apparently 50 years old. he was actually 70 years old, which shows what great shape he was in, and he was a large, athletic man with a large, broadhead covered with a tremendously heavy growth of long hair that reached to his waist. his shoulders were broad and his chest full and muscular. his step was proud, and altogether, he presented quite a model of physical manhood. swilling hurried his prize south where general west awaited with the main column of troops. connor thought that west looks like a pygmy next to the old apache, and he felt some compassion or mangas, who looked careworn and refused to talk to colonel west, who was a short, stout little fellow and who went into a rage because mangas would not speak with. he declared, you have murdered your last white victim, you old scoundrel, and he ordered mangas confined in an old adobe shack. as the sun retreated and bitter cold set in, general west took the men of the evening guard aside. he said to them, "man, that old murderer has got away with every soldier command and has left a trail of blood for 500 miles on the old dateline -- stage line. i want him dead or alive

tomorrow morning. do you understand? they understood. the walker party always kept a guard out at night, even though they were camping with this alters. it came to -- with the soldiers. a came to young daniel connor to be the guard that night. he could see the soldiers of the night guard were doing something

with mangas, but every time he approached their campfire, the only campfire going all night, they settle back and stopped. finally, he went into the shadows and spied on them. what they were doing was heating the tips of their ban at in the fire -- there boyayonets in the fire and touching them to mangas ' legs. finally, he said he was not a child to be trifled with, and two men fired point-blank into the chief. two men came rushing in and fired a single shot into manga'' haeaead. he then hurried into general west headquarters, and west is said, is he dead? he is, said the captain of the guard. very well, then let his guard go to sleep. and general west returned to his own bed, well satisfied with a good night's work. the next morning, connor watched and discussed as one of the california volunteers took a huge bowie knife and scalped mangas coloradas. he folded his long hair around the skin of his scalp and tucked it into his pocket. all the hollywood movies you have seen are incorrect.

apaches did not scalp. they had a terrible fear of ghosts and spirits, so they did not take scalps, or rarely would day. they also never raped. it was completely taboo. all the stories of women meeting of faith -- meeting a fate worse than death were not true. if they fell in love, that was a different story altogether. after he had been scalped, the soldiers rolled the body over into an arroyo and through some brush over it. this made their task easier when the sergeant arrived in order them to bring the corpse back up and beheaded. he boiled it ahead of mangas coloradas and a great pot. he took the skull with him, because this was the age of phrenology, the study of skulls.

he felt that he had a grand scientific artifact. one california soldier wrote one california soldier. it was the wonder of all who sought. it was described as a marble of size, symmetry and closeness of bone texture. two sets of teeth in the jaw. wrapped thearefully skull. anything 64 he opened the a medical practice in toledo, ohio. he get to the skull to professor orson fowler. declared the head

mangus the shortest and broadest goal i have ever seen. and whiter than it was long. the professor announced the skull is being larger than that of the great american daniel webster it must ahead of the head. and he was a politician so i guess he did. he kept the skull on public display and an advantage in many said it went to the smithsonian which still retains a large collection of the bones of the ancestors of many of our native american fellow americans. on the same day of the murder of the great chief, he ordered 20 cap warming -- cavalrymen back. out to troopers wrote search for indians.

mangueach them just as s's people came in. they killed 11, including mangus 's sun and wind's widow. . on the morning of january 25, in the mountains above, they reported that they had killed nine indians, but no distinction by age or gender was made. and they returned to the fort with the scouts of the indians. general west was well satisfied with his campaign, he let his soldiers back to the seed in january 25, 1863. i must tell you in the long and tortured history of the struggle between the united dates of america and the native peoples for possession of this continent few white men have , ever matched the stunning

level of the foxy by general west. he said that megngas had been killed why a tempting to escape. in order to show that even with -- they concluded report, i have shown that even with a murderous indian whose life is clearly , forfeited by all laws the good , faith of the u.s. military authorities was in no way compromised. carlton readily accepted this tissue of deceit because he wanted to. he did not care. megangased that colorado's was the cause of more murderous than all others put together in the country. he has been killed. in a letter to a friend he wrote, and made clear the real

reason behind his black flag no quarter policy towards the apaches. our troops have killed mingus colorado's and i'm still practicing hostility and propose to do so until people can live and that country and explore, and work the veins of precious metal that we know of bound with safety and it is always about gold. gold, gold, gold. regular general west would serve -- brigadier general west would serve in the civil war, at the end of the war he would be given the honorary rank of major general and the united states army. he returned to louisiana, his birthplace in 1866 and was elected to the united states senate from that state in 1971. he died in 1898 and was born -- very along true americans at -- true american heroes at arlington cemetery. he would continue to buccaneer

his way through arizona history. he led the walker party to central area's owner where there was indeed a mountain of gold. that is where prescott, arizona is today. more gold than any of them ever could have imagined. he became very wealthy. he helped build irrigation along the salt river and founded the city of phoenix, arizona. which of us -- which is the capital of the state of arizona. he wanted to name the new community stonewall after his hero from the late unpleasantness between states. cooler heads are veiled -- prevailed so phoenix became the name of that community. jack had an affinity for whiskey and it was compounded by even greater addiction to morphine. this made him a most unpleasant fellow when under the influence. he became one of those characters in the west who everyone kind of like, but he

was dangerous to be around that they decided they had to get rid of him. they framed him for a stagecoach robbery and sent him off to yuma prison. a notorious hellhole where he died almost immediately in a squalid cell following the trial. too bad general west cannot be there with them. the murder of mangus infuriated the apaches. seithed with anger. this is the murder of his father-in-law, his mentor and he swore he would kill the white eyes, as they called the americans, for every apache that died. he kept that promise. for another two years he raged an unrelenting war against the americans. even more disturbing to cochise and his people than the white man's perfidy was the cruel , desecration of mengas' body.

this forever changed their warfare with the white eyes. to an apache, the mutilation of a body is much worse than death because the body must go through eternity in the mutilated condition. little did white eyes know that what they started when they mutilated mangus colorado's, while there was little mutilation, because they do not want to touch dead bodies. it was nothing that was going to follow. of the war years, the killing of an unarmed man who was got to an enemy under truce was an incomprehensible act. infinitely worse was the desecration of the body. to geronimo, it was simply the greatest of wrongs. not long after the death of mengas, an army patrol came.

it was at the san diego for to the rio grande. the retreated with two men dead on the field, including the lieutenant. the victorious apaches cut off the lieutenant's head and carried it off. the first blood paid in atonement for the severed head of mingus colorado's. there would be much blood to follow for another quarter century. thank you very much. [applause] questions? >> the microphones are right here and i will start it off off paul. what sort of sources from the indian side of the story did you have too used to tell your story? prof.

hutton: native people have an oral history. they have an oral history. they remember things in a way that we, addicted to writing as we are, do not have. i think an example of -- if you try to understand how oral tradition works and how people can remember conversation and pass them down through generations even, is to remember that one of the greatest pieces of literature of western civilization is the poetry of homer. the fall of troy. which was never published until hundreds of years after homer had died. recitation kept that story alive, just in the same way that apache oral tradition kept alive their tradition of wars. this wonderful teacher broke -- that worked down to the mescalero reservation in southern new mexico during the 1940's and 1950's.

eve ball. she prevented several of the old apaches who had been young men or children at the time of these wars. she got from them the stories of their days. she recorded them and left us a treasure trove. her history was highly controversial. many of my friends who write about apache wars dismiss her and her history. if you dismiss her history, you dismiss much of what we know from the apache point of view. i embraced her history and i used it. i think it could affect in the blood. i cannot remember conversations i had last month. i know someone remembering a conversation they had when they were 10, that they overheard when they were 10 will not be exactly accurate, at also read a lot of memoirs and they are not exactly accurate. i letter -- i read a lot of army memoirs.

that thought exec the accurate either. that is just the nature of sources. as a historian you just have to be judicious in the sources that you use and just pick the best ones. and the ones that can help bring your story to life. eve ball was a big hero of mine and save the apache story. anything else? yes, sir? >> could you comment on how historical the tom jefferson novel is that the movie broken arrow is based on? and blood brothers is the novel title. could you comment on that both as fiction and history? prof. hutton: that was the story in the little book my mother gave me for my birthday back in october 1962. cochise of verizon. the story is a friendship between a rugged frontier who

was running the mail route. all of his riders were getting killed. no mail was getting to tucson so he used logic, he was from new york and was in the great lakes ships action before the war. he went in and met cochise and cochise was so impressed by his either foolishness or bravery that they became friends. they in fact became, eventually it would said, blood brothers. this was immortalized in a wonderful novel, which i recommend to everyone, blood brother, which was made into the motion picture with jimmy stewart and jeff chandler, broken arrow was also made into a television series. michael ansara, who i believe was lebanese, as cochise. one of the delights buy this

book was that the story was absolutely true. some historians dispute it, especially my academic colleagues, because it is too good. sometimes things are just too good. and i am sorry, but they are also too true. people do fabulous things and that is what makes history so exciting. that's what makes being a historian so exciting and rewarding. one of the great delights of writing the book was to discover that the story was true and is the centerpiece of my book. >> what effect did the indian wars have on the reservation system that developed later that centriy? prof. hutton: there were no reservations in new mexico or arizona at the time. when u.s. grant becomes president at the conclusion of the american civil war he

lafalce all his army bottles like sherman and sheridan by being incredibly sympathetic towards the natives. he establishes what's called grant's peace policy. it was the idea that reservations would be set up and eventually native americans with the top the arts of husbandry and of course christianize. he turned his indian policy over to the quakers. you can imagine how quakers were -- with their message of peace and love to help people like the comanches and the apaches, who just did not quite get it. nevertheless, grant was so well-meaning and the reservation system grew out of that. actually, it was in many ways a fraud, even though he was sincere. because as long as you stayed on that reservation, obeyed the rules and did what your new religious overlords told you to do you would be ok. ,if he stepped one foot of the

reservation, the army was let loose on you. the years of the grant administration are some of the greatest of the indian wars. it really was a war policy as it was a peace policy. but that was indeed the beginning of the reservation system. and the reservations like san carlos that were established in arizona, these mountain people were taken out of a mountain paradise where they lived and brought down to these sweltering flats malaria ridden flats where , they suffered terribly. know what a geronimo just kept breaking out. he said better to die like a man in the mountains than to die here on this ghastly reservation. >> can you confirm or deny what happened to geronimo's goal after his death? prof. hutton: this is quite a controversy. a few years ago we went through a mania. i think they even dug up zachary taylor. they are digging up everybody. they dug up jesse james around here.

this is what forensic science has brought us to, dna testing. there was talk of digging up geronimo because there was a story that prescott bush, the ancestor of two presidents had geronimo's skull from where he was buried. eventually the apaches were all in prison, in pprisoned as prisoners of war. in oklahoma, what was in the indian territory. we hear a lot about japanese internment. on americant blot history and an embarrassment to us all. the chiricahua was kept as reserves of war from most a quarter of a century, almost far longer than japanese americans were interned. they really suffered. it was only when geronimo died

that they were able to choose farming in oklahoma or return to the mescalero reservation in new mexico. many of them did. the story was prescott bush dug up geronimo's body and that's with a celebrated with the dark celebrations at the skull and bones society at gail. -- yale. i do not know if they got geronimo skull but i am willing to believe all kinds of really bad stuff goes on in secret at yale. isn't that were all of our recent presidents have come from? i heard president obama comes from harvard so i guess he gets a pass. there is now an effort by the fort sill apaches to reestablish their homeland by silver city where geronimo was born. they wanted to bury him where he was born. i think that is a wonderful idea. they want to do it all with

their own money. they don't want money from the government. they have a little casino in oklahoma that is doing ok. they want to build a casino in new mexico. they are opposed by the other tribes because we have a lot of casinos and nobody wants competition. it's become quite a controversy. >> i am wondering what the native american indian reactions has been to your book. are they in agreement with what you have said? are they in appreciative or are they otherwise? prof. hutton: i have not received any harsh criticism. that doesn't mean it won't come. as you can imagine, all people have strong reactions to other people writing their history. do we want brits writing our history? i don't think so. i think there is a natural

reaction by native people that they want to control their story. that is why it is taken so seriously and we have such big debates and arguments over it. it really is about our soul as a people. especially in a nation such as ours where he come from so many different places. so many different races, and we are trying to make this thing work. there is always going to be a contest over that strain of -- story and control of the story. i think i was very fair. i tried to be very balanced and not portray the whites as completely evil as i did general west. but it is tough. it is tough. the worst story of all, even worse than this was at the very end of the conflict they decided that the only way to beat the apaches and forster on about to surrender was to remove all the chiricahua was to florida.

men, women and children. there only tribe that crime was being chiricahua apache. that is exactly what they did. before they did the removal they brought several other apache leaders back to me with the president of the united states grover cleveland. , they offered them the opportunity to go to the indian territory. oklahoma. they said they wanted to stay in their homeland. even san carlos is at least in our homeland. president cleveland gave them peace medals. chado, who had been one of geronimo's best warriors but it become with friends with nikki free and headed instrument on hunting down geronimo. now he was the leader of his people, representation of his people. the piece metal business had seen rough times, he did not

have a grover metal -- grover cleveland peace medal. they gave him a chester arthur medal. cleveland put him on a train and gave orders that they were to be initially taken to prison in florida. peace medal around their neck. wow. i came out of the bunker on that i am getting old, jaded and one. cynical about our government. i never liked grover cleveland anyway. [laughter] this was the end of any remote affection i had for the president who was known as grover the good back in the day. >> one more question, kind of silly. prof. hutton: no questions on history are silly. >> do you think you really could sing the davy crockett -- [laughter] born on a mountaintop in tennessee?

prof. hutton: raised in the woods says he knew every tree, bar when he wasa va only three. [applause] that is all i am doing. i understand that only a few copies of the book are still for sale, however there are bookplates that he signed and he will sign the other books as well. please give another thanks to our speaker tonight. [applause] >> interested in american history tv? visit our website, c-span.org /history. you can see the upcoming schedule or watch a recent program. american artifacts, wrote to the white house rewind, lectures in

history and more at c-span.org/ history. >> on the communicators monday night, we are talking with raj rajkumar. we are talking about the developments and self driving cars. >> this is the cadillac you see behind me. google has built them. the next generation vehicles will be focusing on basically using automotive great technologies completely. they will be able to deal with a lot more scenarios on the road than they can. they should be able to drive on roads they have never seen before. >> watch the communicators monday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span 2. join us next week on the communicators for the conclusion of the series with cars that talk with each other and the road.

this month former secretary of state madeleine albright received the great american's award for the national museum of american history. this weekend we will show the ceremony in her remarks. here is a preview. albright: first of all by name is -- this is a weird story. my grandmother, apparently there was a play in prague at the time that i was a little girl. it was called madeleine in the brick factory. she decided the name madeleine was a good name. however my mother never pronounced anything right. mudland. i had no idea how to spell it. it was not until i went to school in switzerland that they decided i name was madeleine spelled the french way. diaana.l name is still ma

when i got my first passport issued, you have to sign your name, i always put metal and and they said this is not you. i said but it is. until i was secretary of state and i could actually order up a passport that said metal and that said madeleine -- [laughter] >> watch the entire program at 8:55 p.m. eastern. american history tv, only on c-span 3. > american history tv, a panel of historians talking about great attacks of the civil war. they debate what factors should be considered in evaluating engagements and which battles have the most military or symbolic significance. the discussion was part of the symposium hosted by the emerging civil war blog. it is about an hour and 10 minutes. >> i am pleased to introduce some of my colleagues.