daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies. and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite proo provider. provide >> next on c-span 3, it's american history tv with programs on native american history. we begin with historian paul andrew hutton on the 19th century conflict between the apaches. mexican, american settlers, native american settlers and groups. this is an hour. >> good iening. welcome. my name is eli paul and with the special collections of the tennessee public library. it is my honor to introduce our speaker paul andrew hutton.

first in keeping with his profession, as a university professor we're going to have a pop quiz. one question pass fail. here is the question. what do jeff chandler, charles bronson, rock hudson and the incredibleably blue-eyed burt lancaster all have in common? i think i hear the answer and the answer is all these hollywood leading men played apache indian leaders in the movies. jeff chandler played cochise. hock hudson played taza, son of cochise. bronson want chato and burt was the warrior, masai. for extra credit, answer this, what made these roles so attractive to these actors in could it be the epic nature of their struggle?

keep those questions in mind. also keep those names in mind. maybe not the faces. the people may reappear as paul hutton tells us about our war with the apache tribes. america's longest. it all began with an apache raid and the kidnapping of an arizona ranchers boy in 1861 and lasted more than a quarter after century. the fighting only ended with the 1886 surrender of ji ron know, who by the way, was played braille indian, the cherokee west in the 19 the 3 movie. paul hutton looks back at this jarjly overlooked chapter in our country's history. this is an epic storely by an accomplished narrator. highly rated professor at university of mexico and award winning author and television personality who has been in more than 200 television documentaries.

paul's gift, it's his ability to navigate the two great rivers of western history and popular culture of the west. as the former executive director of the western history association and the western writers of america he has roped in many students like me to help tell the story of the american west. now he has done so himself in his magnificent book, the apache wars, the hunt for gironimo and the captive kid and who started the longest war in american history. please welcome, paul hutton. >> thank you so much. it is great to be in kansas city. with all due respect for the great state of texas, there is

no better barbecue. not just in -- [ applause ] not just in united states or in the world but in the universe, right here. [ applause ] i understand there's contention amongst the citizens of this fine city which is the barbecue and i have very firm opinions on that which i will keep to myself. since i'm here to make friends. the story of the apache wars is a story in which is hard to inject humor and i do say that often when i speak my talks tend to be humorous, but i'm afraid it's difficult to have humor in this particular story and the story i will tell you tonight is

a particularly grim and tragic episode of the apache wars. folks often ask me how i got interested in this topic i'm interested in a lot of western history of course and have been all my life. i got hooked in 1955 by walt disney who converted a lot of children over to history and it was the program, davy crockett, that, yes, that hooked me. i still have my coon skin cap. and at the end of this program, i was thinking we could do all the versus of the song, if you would like to. of course that was the great hay day of the western imprint and third of hollywood's product where westerns in the 1950s and 1960s and before wes dudy played gironimo and playing the

blue-eyed gironimo of the 1950s movie of the same name. and a lot of history is portr portrayed on the silver screen and in writing a lot of that writing is popular writing and so my challenge in writing the apache wars was different from what i had done in my career and a lot of television. and i've written for television and a lot of popular magazine articles but never a book for a broad popular audience and so this was a difference journey that i went on and it was very challenging, took four years to research and complete the book. it's doing very well. and i'm very proud of it, obviously. and relieved to have it done. i'll tell you in fact a little story about that. i was, of course i follow the numbers religiously and book sales and i'm waiting with baited breath for every review. and i knew the wall street journal was going to review my

book. and wall street journal has a fabulous book session, i subscribe to the wall street journal and it arrives at my door. so that saturday morning when i knew it was coming, i got up at 6:00 in the morning. paper hadn't been delivered yet. my bunny slippers on, which i only take off to teach my classes, then return. went out and patted out my rope with my bunny slips. got my cup of coffee. i was so nervous i couldn't even open the paper. then i did. i saw the reviews by sc gwenn, the summer moon, which is about the ka manchys and the success of that book had gotten me my house to write my book. he was my hero. i never met him but wanted to take him out and get him a steak dinner aeb buy mix a few drinks. thank you.

i start reading the review and it a very positive review. and i must say all of the reviews have been very positive although academic reviews aren't in yet. but the -- in it is a -- the third paragraph that begins terrier like. hutton follows every sker mish and battle of the apache -- terrier like. over years of my life. as can you see, i'm not as young as i used to be. big years i gave up. four years locked in a room all by myself pep i'm not really good company. writing this book and i'm compared to small mammal. my pros, compared to -- and it's worse because at christmas, just the christmas before, just seven, eight months ago we add choir from the albuquerque

animal shelter, a little terrier. who we named annie oakley. and she has cut a swath through every piece of furniture through our entire yard. through our entire irrigation system. through every possession we have. through my books. she has a swath that would make attila the hun squash, otherwise known as chub ra could be ra. and being compared to one in my writing wounded me deeply so i still hope to take sc gwen out some day but he is getting an ice tea. >> i became interested in the story of the apaches, not long after i had become so fs nated by davy crockett and started really reading popular western

history and children's books on the west and the book that hooked me was a book by oliver called cochise of arizona. i remember it so distinctionly because it was october 1962, heist cube an missile crisis and we just returned from taiwan where we lived. my dad, a world war ii vet, retired from the air force. just so you know, veterans affairs were the same in 1962 as they apparently are today. air force lost all of our furniture and all of our goods. and also failed to process the old man's retirement. he needed the money because he add big thirst and needed to fuel that at all times and of course it was the cube an missile crisis. and that october, you know, kennedy put the embargo on the russian ships were coming and even as a child, i could sense the anxiety of adults who

thought perhaps indeed that whole world was going to be blown to smithereens that october. well, and also we were just impoverished. we had no money. we had no furniture. we weren't living out of our car but were living in a big empty farm house in indian. and my mom couldn't afford anything for my birthday present. so she went to the kokomo public library. now isn't that funny how, what's it been, 40 years and still, it's a tough story to tell. she checked out that book. and wrapped it, gave it to me. of course we had to take it back. that's the best gift i ever got.

and of course now i have a beautifully inscribed edition of that and later learned that oliver was a pulitzer prized winning writer on indians and bought my own copy for my book collection. cochise was the great son-in-law and that's the story i will tell you tonight. his name was mangos colorados. red sleeves. they say his name came by from the way he waded into the arm of his mexican enemies. he covered his arms in blood and thus he got his name. apaches had been fighting the spanish and then the mexicans for hundreds of years before the americans arrived. and when general steven watts kearny coming to conquer new mexico territory then go on to california, he joined with hip and fought with the mexicans and

they made kmop war against a common enemy.ckmop war against common enemy.okmop war against common enemy.mkmop war against common enemy.mkmop war against a common enemy.okmop war against a common enemy.nkmop war against a common enemy. war against a common enemy. the mexican government that ruled over the american southwest for some 20 years is now very fragile. it really could not control its northern provinces and to do so they had higher bands of scout hunters. many of whom were americans. who roam throughout the southwest, taking apaches as slaves and killing them and selling their scalps to the mexican authorities so the apaches who are a great people for vengeance, had a great score to settle. prs before he died at the beginning of the lat century they asked gironimo if he had any regrets. he said, no, except that i didn't kill more mexicans.giron. he said, no, except that i didn't kill more mexicans. so these were not folks that

were forgiving and forgetting. the apaches were resebt newcomers to the american southwest compared to the pueblo people of the rio grande river valley. compared to the pimas, the other tribes in the area. mohaves. and in fact for the western apaches, they may have reached what is now arizona about the same time that the spanish did. time of the spanish an trada. and coronado. they preyed upon their neighbores. vikings of america. they made no apologies for this and i don't believe historians should make apologies for them. if we celebrate the viking and what they did we can certainly celebrate the great warrior tribe of the apaches. never numerous people. perhaps at the time of the wars that i'll be talking to about,

there were 8,000, 9,000 at the most. they lived in a harsh unforgiving environment and knew it like they knew the back of their hands. they're not horse indians. they are a mountain people and so they looked upon the horses that the spanish brought as food as much as they looked upon them as transportation but they did use them to carry their warriors deep into mexico for their raids. but by 1862, mangas colorados, great chief, who unlike any other chief had united all of the people together, he had grown weary of war. since 1846 he tried to keep the peace with the americans thought the americans betrayed that peace. in 1861 when aravike, western apaches from the north.

mangas, led the cherakowas. and mangas had fought the americans after cochise was called into a peace conference. a young boy had been kidnapped from a ranch just south of tucson and eventually his name was mickey free. set through character that runs through my whole book and his kidnapping set in motion this great war that goes on for 25 years and he's in the war the entire way. first as an apache warrior, then as an army scout. he was half irish, half mexican, red-headed freckle-faced one eye quite an ak centric and dangerous character. only man that ji ron know ever feared. his kidnapping sent this young lieutenant to demand the return of the boy. and cochise says i don't have the boy but i'll find him for you. and this young lieutenant said,

i'm taking you prisoner and cochise had come in for lunch. he thought they were having a social gathering. he brought his whole family with him. he managed to cut his way out and escape but his brother and nephew were captured and a events followed which the apaches were hanged. this set in motion 25 years of war. unrelenting brutal war. a war so brutal that in 1861 as union troops were withdrawn from arizona and new mexico to meet the confederate invasion of new mexico, arizona was completely depopulated and the american frontier was thrown back one of the few times in history that ever happened. and mangas waged a great war and soon american troops came, came

from under california under general carlton. the soldiers might have been destroyed except they made a fortunate shot and shot colorados out of his horse and it took mangas who was nearing 70 years old a long time to recover from that wound. and he grew tired of war and that one gets older. one does get tired of all these incessant adventures and so he had, he wanted to make peace. he went to new mexico and sent out peace over to general carlton but peace was the last thing carlton wanted hp he arrived with his california troops, 2,000 of them. too late it fight the rebels. sew was determined to fight the indians and destroy the apaches and navajos once and for all. he would be successful against the navajos but not so against

the apaches despite the event i'm about to describe. well, colorado was about to end the rule over southwest so he sentd sent out a message to one of his coloneles. he said makas colorados send me word he want peace but i have no faith in him. and in response to mangas peace overtours, carlton organized and competition and take it against the apache was as they called the charikowa apaches who live in southwestern new mexico right around where silver city is in new mexico just north of lordsburg. in those mountains that mangas colorados was borp in those mountains that ji ron know was born. he told colonel west to launch a

campaign against the charikowas and women and children were to be taken prisoner but all males, and by that they meant any boy over age 10, was to be killed. it was mid january before colonel west could get 250 troops up and they reoccupied ft. mclane and these forts were abandoned and they were fighting rebels. and while he was there they sent out a message to find man named jack swilling. and carlton had told him about swilling. and they are at silver mines and he is available for service. and jack swill was a georgia native, veteran at mexican war.

after deserting family and baby and leaving behind and they went to work with butterfield stage company and one of the foupd founders of the express company in business today and he got the mail contract to run a mail route between the states and california and butterfield overland mail critical to holding california in the union and cochise and mangas and warriors shut down the butterfield mail and ended all communication with california. then followed the gold rush into the mountains of southwestern new mexico and had opened a saloon in pinos altos and judge roy bean would later become famous of course as law west of the pecos down in texas. and the man who laid out the

town was named mills and he would later become a famous army officer in the indian wars but at that time he was a surveyor from indiana. and one of his brothers work for butterfield stage line and would be killed by the apaches during this time. well, swilling prospered in the mines but apaches made life difficult for mine earns other form what were called arizona guards.r earns other form what were called arizona guards.s earns other form what were called arizona guards. earns other form what were called arizona guards.a earns other form what were called arizona guards.n earns other form what were called arizona guards.d earns other form what were called arizona guards.earns other form what were called arizona guards.arns other form what were called arizona guards.rns other form what were called arizona guards.ns other form what were called arizona guards.s other form what were called arizona guards. other form what were called arizona guards. and they are busy scouting for apaches and soon joined up with the con fed rates and they went forward and met up with -- met up with the yankees who were coming from california.fed rate forward and met up with -- met up with the yankees who were coming from california.e rates forward and met up with -- met up with the yankees who were coming from california.rates an forward and met up with -- met up with the yankees who were

coming from california.ates and forward and met up with -- met up with the yankees who were coming from california.rates an forward and met up with -- met up with the yankees who were coming from california. and swilling caught the yankee guard and took him back to an area occupied by rebel troops. and as they are going back though, they are dogged by apaches who are all around them and just like in a hollywood movie and gives the captain back his gun and says we're going to have to fight our way through. and they become pals. by the time they get to masia, rebels are in retreat and union army has won a big victory at gloery eta pass. so swilling switches sides and becomes a dispatch rider and scalp for the new victorious union troops. and so, he's there in -- he's there in pinot altos when colonel west needs it. so west hires swilling who is a great big guy with a real swagger to him and big sombrero

and long black hair down to his shoulders and just a real swaush buckling character there in the southwest. he is highered and hired to meet with mangas colorados. so he sends him up, wes sends swilling up to pinot altos in 1863 and meets a remarkable group of adventurers who are camped there and these men are gold hunters and led by joseph walker and had led 20 men into new mexico into hopes of reaching central arizona where everyone suspected there is a mun tan of gold where prescott is now, prescott by wait, briefly the capital of territorial arizona. onliter toral capital ever name ford a historian in the united states, which brings a tear to my eye. as i think about it. walker though, couldn't make it

into arizona with his men because the apaches were everywhere. every pass through this rough broken country was guarded by apache warriors and they are like ghosts. you sense them. they were all around you but all you could see was their smoke signals and smoke signals weren't really a means of communication but it was a signal you sent up to say, i'm here. come. i'm here. and these signals were all around the men as they tried to get through the passes and they camped near what is now the arizona line, place called cook's canyon and they saw some nearby fires and so they made their way over to them and they thought that maybe they were signals and that apaches wanted to talk but no they left a calling card for walker and his bold adventurers. three white men were hung upside

down, gruesomely by their ankles with their heads just a few inches above smoldering fires. so this caused even these tough characters. these rough tough western frontiersmen to decide they would track back to pinot alt yoes. this was a little too rough even for those guys. they passed mountains again and again and each time met with more scenes of horror. now joseph walker came from a bold adventurous tennessee family. one of his brother killed fighting mormons here in missouri and another was killed at the alamo. so a tough family and he himself had become one of the great mountain men, companion of jim richard. kit carson, broken hand fitzpatrick and he had gone with

carson and on two expeditions to california. and he stayed there. even though he was in his late 60s, he decided on one last adventure. he knew there was gold in arizona. if only he could find it. so he was trying one last time. and so now swilling joined up with this band and he convinced a skeptical walker that what they needed to do was catch mangas colorados. that would get them through the mountain passes through arizona. now you just take i-10. it is a really good drive right through. but it is amazing, if you take i-10 west and go through the cut of mountains and hit the flats right when you come into arizona, that's right where all this action took place. there is so much death and destruction in that small little corner of the american southwest.

so swilling sent out messages for colorados to come in and he did come in. and swilling was the kind of guy the apaches appreciate. they liked him. he was just as bold as they were. he is a tough guy. they could tell he was sort of a kindred spirit. so they liked him and they held a council in this ram shackle little community of pinot altos and had already been burned once by the apaches. swilling greeted him warmly. he disguised his true feel willing because he saw that mangas had a shotgun. and with the initials of one of his best friends. he departed the guards the same time swilling had but instead of joining the yankees he decided to make his way to california along with eight other

companions. they only made it as far as apache pass. in southeastern arizona. then they were all butchered by the apaches there and swilling carrying dispatches for the army found their bodies and recognized the shotgun that mangas carried as belonging to his friend. he disguised his sieging anger and pretended friendship and promised to mangas that he would open up negotiations with the army for magnas and would bring his rations and supplies for his people if he would come back and bring his people in to pinos altos. well mangas was delighted. fine lay positive reaction. no decisions were made by the apaches. these chiefs weren't kinges. they weren't rulers. everything was done by consensus. this was a pure democracy. not just with the apatches but

with so many american native tribes in the american midwest. he called his people into council and met first in new mexico. and with both branches of the charikowa people. he made sure people knew the men in the settlements were sincere. this is their chance and their war was with the mexicans reminded them. and the new americans were more powerful and people they could deal with but lot of skrept skeptics after what happened to cochise out at apache pass.epti after what happened to cochise out at apache pass. in particular, a young warrior named ji ron know who had gotten his name after his family had been butchered by militia and he found his mother and daughter

and children all scalped in pools of blood and he had sworn vengeance against the mexicans and this is the calling of his life. he devoted his entire life to making the mexicans pay for what they had done to his family. so effective was he at this, that he earned a new name just like colorados earned his name in warfare. so did, one who yawns, earned a new name because of the mexicans in their grief and terror called out to st. ji roam for salvation for this great warrior as he waded into men and slaughtered them and he took the name, gentlemji ron know. and he said, you can't trust these people. don't go there, great chief. ji ron know said this would end badly but mangas was determined. his word carried great weight.

and of course a call to peace is always more comforting to so many than a call to war. so ji ron know was ignored and mangas won the peace over to this peace overtour. then he talked with the great leader victoria who would also lead his people out on a great war trail in years to come. and he was also skeptical but agreed that mangas should try but said would he go with mangas as a bodyguard but ji ron know took the rest of the people who sanctuary over in arizona and they waited while mangas and victoria and a few warriors went to meet with jack swilling at pinot altos. there was a young kentucky

expeditionist. we learn about what happened at this sad rendezvous. and walker met with mangas and to try and take him prisoner then all of a sudden as if it was preplanned, which of course it was, troops arrive from colonel west. captain sherlin arrive with troops and they join the miners and frontiersmen at pinot alt yoes. they hoisted a white flag. conceal the soldiers and the log buildings of the village and waited for mangas colorados. around noon the next day, swilling let forth with great war cry. here is mangas. at first they met some distance from each other then shouted in spanish at each other and spanish is the language of communication that everyone used. at least the americans what who

could speak spanish and almost all of the apaches could speak spanish. finally they came closer and close earn shook hands and swilliswill had to reach up. and an american was 6'6" tall. swilling was 6 foot tall but no match for the heard of the apaches. sherlin and troops set stepped forward with guns draw and mangas realized he had been betrayed.tepped forward with guns draw and mangas realized he had been betrayed. i said, back off, we're not fooling with mexicans here. these people are serious. he said, tell my people to look for me when they see me. as they entered the village, and he was bound, he realized the full extent of his betrayal. young connor watched all this

and felt the chief incredibly dignified in the face of the incredible change of fortunes. he wrote his face were an err of care and perplexity. dress consisted of a broad brim small crown chip straw hast mexican manufacturer. a checked cotton shirt and high pair of moccasins with legs like boots. they fit loosely. cñ 50 years old but 70 years old, which shows what great shape he was in. he was considerably over 6 of feet in height with a large broad head covered with a tremendously long growth of hair reaching to his waist. his shoulders broad and chest full and muscular. he stood erect and he stood tall and proud, physical man hood.

connor thought that west quote thought a pighe next to the old apache and felt some compassion for mangas who looked care worn and refused to talk to colonel west who was a short stout little fellow and went into a rage because mangas wouldn't speak to him. he ordered mangas confined in one of the few remaining structures in old adobe shack. as sun retreated and bitter cold set in, general west took the men of the evening guard aside and he said to them, quote, man that old murderer got away with every soldier command and left a trail of blood for 500 miles on the old sage line. i want him dead or alive tomorrow morning. doo you understan you understan?

they understand. walker kept a guard even though they camped with soldiers. they kanl to young daniel connor to be the guard that night. he could see if the soldiers of the night guard were doing something with mangas and were somehow fooling with them. but every time he approached their campfire, only one going all night, they settled back and stopped. and finally, he went into the shadows and spied on them. and what they were doing is heating the tips of their bayonets in the fire. then touching them to mangas's legs. finally mangas rose up on one shoulder and said he is an child to be trifled with. both men rose as one and fired point blank into the chief. captains at guard came rushing in. fired a shot into mangas's head

with, in coup de grace. west said, he is dead? he is, sir, said the captain of the guard. very well, then let his guard go to sleep and general west returned to his own bed well satisfied with a good night's work. welling with the next morning connor watched in disgust as one of the california volunteers took a huge knife and scalped mangas colorados and folded his long hair around the skin of his scalp and tucked it into his pocket. all of the movies have you seen, apaches did not scalp. they add tearible fear of the dead, of ghosts of spir pits. they lived in a world full of spirits and ghost so they didn't take scalps or rarely would they. they also never raped.

complete complete completely taboo. a white woman meeting a fate worse than death, that totally didn't happen. now, if they fell in love, that's a different story all together. they rolled the body over into and threw sage brush and dust over it. this is easier when the regimen assistant surgeon, david sturgeon, ordered them to bring the corpse back up and behead it. he boiled the head of colorados in a great pot. and he took the skull with him because this was the great age of fry knoll ji. and the study of skulls. and he felt that add grand scientific undertaking. wrote one california soldier breathlessly upon scene, the skull of mangas colorados. the wonder of all who saw it. and was described by the surgeon

as a marvel of size, symmetry and closeness of bone texture. skull was particularly noticeable from the breath of forehead and jaw and from possessing two complete sets of teeth in each jaw. dr. sturgeon carefully wrapped the skull in his baggage and in 1864 he opened a medical practice in toledo, ohio. there he gifted the skull to orson squire faller. in his 1873 book, human science, faller declared the head of mangas colorados to be the shortest and broadest human skull i have ever seen accepting one or two. actually wider than it was long. the professor then pronounced the skull as being larger than that of the great american daniel webster who must have had a go ahead. and he was a politician, so i guess he did. for some time he kept the skull on public display then it vanished and many said it went

to the smithsonian which still retains a large collection of the bones and the ancestors of many of our native american fellow americans. on the same day, 20 calvary men were in search of accompanies mangas. and 50 more troopers road out to scout the mountains in search of indians.dad out to scout the mountains in search of indians.ead out to scout the mountains in search of indians.d out to scout the mountains in search of indians. out to scout the mountains in search of indians. they reached the area just as mangas's men were coming in. they killed 11 including the son of mangas colorados and wounded colorados's widow. on the morning of january 25, sherlin instructed the men in the mountains and reported that they had killed nine indians but no distinction by age or gender was made and they returned to

the ft. with the scalps of the indians, depth upon bride els of their horses. he led his soldiers back to masia in 1863.els of their horses. he led his soldiers back to masia in 1863.ls of their horses. he led his soldiers back to masia in 1863. in the long and tortured history between the united states of america and native people for possession of this continent, few white men have ever matched the stunning level of hypocrisy displayed by brigadier general joseph rodman west. in his official report of the death of mangas colorados. he said to general carlton that mangas had been killed while attempting to escape and he wrote then to conclude his report, i have thus dealt length upon this matter that to show even with a murderous indian whose life is forfeited by all

laws, even human, the good faith of the u.s. military authorities was in no way compromised. carlton readily accepted this tish you've deceit because he wanted to of course. he didn't care. he smugly reported to the war department, colorados, the worst indian within our boundaries and one murdering, torturing at the stake of this country than all others put together is killed. he wrote, and made clear that in the troops of mangas colorados and i'm still prosecuting hostilities against the apaches and proposed to do so until people can live in that country and explore the veins of precious metal which we know abound there with safety and of course it is always about gold. gold, gold, gold.

brigadier general west serving in the war and at the end of the war he would be given the honorary rank of major general in the united states army for faithful service. in his birthplace of 1966 and elected to the united states senate from that state in 1971. he died in 1898 and it buried alongside true american heros at arlington national cemetery. jack swilling, agent in the capture of colorados would continue to buck here in his way through arizona history. he led the walker party to central arizona where indeed there was a mountain of gold and that's where prescott, arizona is today. more gold than any of them ever, ever could imagine. and he became very wealthy. and he helped billed irrigation along the salt river and thus founded the city of phoenix,

arizona. that of course is now the c capital of the state of arizona. he wanted to name the new community stone wall after his hero from the late unpleasantness of the states but cooler heads revealed to phoenix became the name of that community. but jack had an affinity for whis he can and it was founded bay greater addiction of fate and when he was under the influence and became one of those characters in the west where everyone kind of liked and he was just so dangerous to be around they framed him for stage coach robbery and sent him off to yuma prison wre died. almost immediately in a squall cell while awaiting trial. that's too bad general west couldn't be there with him. the murder of mangas of course infuriated the apaches.

cochise just sieged with white anger.eieged with white anger.eieged with white anger.tieged with white anger.hieged with white anger.dieged with white anger.eged with white anger.ged with white anger.ed with white anger.d with white anger. with white anger. this is the murder of his father-in-law, his mentor, and so for another ten years, he waged another unrelenting war against the americans. even more disturbing to cochise and his people than the white man's per fitty, they were used to that, was the cruel december nation of mangas's body. this forever changed their behavior in the warfare with the white eyes. to an apache, mutilation is much worse than death because the body must go through eternity in the mutilated condition, said one apache leader. little did white eyes know that when they started when they mutilated colorados, while there was little mutilation previously because they didn't want to

touch dead bodies, while little mutilation previouslying with nothing compare what was going to follow. gone to an enemyincomprehensibl. to ji ron know it was simply the greatest of wrongs. not long after the death of mangas colorados, a party ambushed an a patrol near the san diego ford of the rio grande. soldiers retreated with three wounded men leaving two dead on the field including their lieutenant. the victorias apaches cut off the lieutenant's head and cut it off as a trophy. first blood payment in atonement for the severed head of mangas colorados. there would be much blood to follow for another quarter century.

thank you very much. [ applause ] >> questions? >> yes. >> if do you have questions, the microphones are here. i'll start it off, paul. what side of the story did you have from the indians to tell your story. >> it is apache oral tradition. and native peoples have an oral history and they remember things in a way that we addicting to writing as we are, don't have and i think an example if you try to understand how oral tradition works and how people can like remember conversations and pass them down through generations even, is to remember

that one of the greatest pieces of literature of western civilization of course is the poetry of homework on the fall of troy which was never published until hundreds of years after homer died. so recitation kept that story alive. just in the same way that apache oral tradition kept alive their version of wars. there was a wonderful teacher that worked down near the reservation in southern new mexico during 1940s and 1950s. her name was eve ball. she befriended several of the old apaches who had been either young men or children during the time of these wars and they got from them the stories of the days and she recorded them. she left us a treasure trove her history was highly controversial. and me and my friends dismiss her history.

if you dismiss her history you dismiss much of what we know from the apache point of view. i embraced her history and used it, i think, to good effect in the book. that they overheard it. it wasn't exactly accurate but i also read a lot of army memoirs and they're not accurate either. it's the nature so as a historian you have to be judicious in the sources you use and try to pick the best ones. and the ones that can help bring your story to life. and it's a big heroin of mine.

>> can you comment on how historical the tom jeffers novel is that the movie broken arrow was based on. could you comment on fiction and history. >> >> that was the story in the little book my mother gave me for my birthday in october 1962 and the story is friendship between this rugged frontier and he himself had it and no mail is getting through to tucson so with pure yankee logic was from new york. he had been a captain since the civil war andow!÷ he was so i s impressed by his foolishness or

bravery and they became friends and eventually it was said blood brothers. this was immortalized in a wonderful novel which i recommend to everyone and it was then made into the motion picture and broken arrow was also made into a television series. he i believe was syrian and and one of the lights of writing this book is that the story is absolutely true. some historians dispute it because it's too good. you know sometimes things are too good but they're also too true and people do fabulous things and that's what makes history exciting and being a historian exciting and

rewarding. it's to discover this story was true and it's the centerpiece of the book. >> what effect did the indian wars have on the reservation system that developed later that century. >> there were no reservations in new mexico or arizona at this time and when u.s. grant becomes president of the united states at the conclusion of the american civil war he befuddles all of his army buddies by being sympathetic toward the natives. and eventually native americans and turned policy over to the

quakers of all people. >> and as long as you did what your overlords told you to do you would be okay but step one foot off the reservation and the army was let loose so the years of the grand administration are some of the greatest of the indian wars so it was as much a war policy as it was a peace policy but that was indeed the beginning of the reservation system and they were then established in arizona and these mountain people were taking out of a paradise where they lived and brought down to these flats

where they suffered terribly. he said better to tie like a man in the mountains than to die here on this ghastly reservation. >> can you confirm or deny what happened to his skull after his death? >> well it's quite a controversy and they'll have jesse james around here and they were all

imprisoned in florida and then eventually imprisoned as prisoners of war in oklahoma. and for almost a quarter of a century. far longer than japanese americans were interned and so they really suffered terribly and they were allowed to take alotments in oklahoma or to return not to arizona but to the reservation in new mexico which many of them did. they took the skull back and celebrated some ceremony and i don't know if he got his skull

but some really bad stuff goes on. president obama went to harvard so he gets a pass. they wanted to disinter and rebury him at the waters where he was born and i think that's a wonderful idea and they want to do it all with their own money. they don't want any money from the government. they got a little casino in oklahoma and it's doing okay and they want to build a casino in new mexico and we have a lot of casinos and nobody wants competition and so it's become quite a controversy. yes, sir. >> yes, i was just wondering if you -- what the native american, the indian reaction has been to

your book? are they in agreement with what you have said? are they appreciative or are are they otherwise? >> well, i have not received any harsh criticism. that doesn't mean it won't come and you can imagine that all people have strong reactions to other people writing their history. do we want brits writing our history? i don't think so and i think there's a natural reaction by native people that they want to control their story and a lot of history is about control and that's why it's taken so seriously and we have big debates and big arguments over it. it's about our soul as people. and in a from so many different places and you can try to make it work.

>> and but it's tough. it's tough. and the worst story of all is at the end of the conflict they decided the only way to beat them and force him to surrender was to remove them to prisons in florida. all of them. >> that's exactly what they did. but before they did the removal they brought several other leaders back to meet with the president of the united states. grover cleveland in the white house and they were saying they

offered them the opportunity and president cleveland gave them peace medals. one of the best warriors and had then become good friends and had been instrumental in hunting him down. and it was seeing rough times and budgets being what they were and they didn't have a grover cleveland peace medal. he got a chester arthur peace medal. and he was the interrupter for all of this and cleveland gave orders they were to be taken to prison in florida. peace medal around their neck. wow. i'm getting old and jaded and

s cynical about our government. i never liked him anyway but this is the end of any remote affection i had for the president that was known as grover the good back in the day. >> it's a question kind of silly. >> no questions on history are silly. >> well, do you think you really could sing the davey rocket born on the mountain top in tennessee. >> raised in the land of the free. built him a barn when he was only 3. that's all i'm doing. >> very good. >> well he signed the other books as well.

please give another hand to our speaker tonight. >> talking about the hillary clinton e-mail investigation and the recent actions by fbi director james comey and other investigators looking into the case. and then the director of the political communication center at the university of oklahoma joins us to talk about the history of political advertising and where it is today. and jason roberts talking about north carolina's role as a key

battleground state. watch the washington journal live at 7:00 a.m. eastern tuesday morning. join the discussion. >> tuesday discussion on immunotherapy drugs and cancer research. we'll hear from several doctors that look at how immunotherapy has shown promise as a cure for several types of kansasers and how the u.s. food and drug administration can speed up procedures to make drugs more available to patients. it starts live at 10:00 a.m. eastern and we'll have it on cspan. after that experts on mental health, public health and law enforcement hold a briefing on gun violence and what can be done to reduce killings. the school of law holds the briefing as they plan to call on congress to address the gun issues. the briefing begins live at noon eastern on cspan and whether the 2008 financial crisis was caused by u.s. housing policy.

next remarks from ucla history professor on his book an american genocide. the united states and the california indian catastrophe. he argued that vigilantes and militias caused it to fall during this period. >> good evening everyone and thank you for coming out this evening to get into what is not necessarily the most relaxing topic but a topic to which i have devoted the better part of a decade of my life is i believe

in it's importance. i'd like to thank patti for all the work that she did. and all the people at the california historical society and all the people that work here for making this event possible. >> before we begin i just want to remind you that you are in indian country. you are sitting in indian country right now. when you walk out these doors after this presentation you'll be in indian country. no matter where you go in this hemisphere you will be in indian country. why? because virtually every square inch of the americas is the homeland of an american people.