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it was left out of the platform in 2012. there was a big campaign with it. they tried to get the people to vote for it. it took three votes. all of them were saying no, no, no. finally, the chair said, i say it was yes. it was an oral vote. i don't have too much time. i am not going to go through all the members. there were polls.

when 60 members of congress skipped the speech of the israeli prime minister, that was sanctions israel. it was because of bds that it made it possible, because there were movements out there. the policy again has not shifted but the political shifts press forward the work of those movements that have made these broader shifts possible. why now? because the israeli violations are more violent, more visible, partly because of social media. more people are aware. the political situation of the world is different. young people, not only young jews, young palestinians, young people in general are not accepting the so-called conventional wisdom that led to single minded approach that is says, israel is our friend and that's all you need to know. we saw it this year in the debates around the democratic party platform. partly because of the bernie sanders campaign.

bernie sanders made the issue of palestine. his only major foreign policy issue. that was huge. in my view, it wasn't necessarily the right decision, because it was an isolating decision. if he had made ending u.s. wars in the middle east his main foreign policy decision, it might have gotten more support than it ultimately did. from the vantage point of changing the political discourse on palestine, this was unprecedented and amazing. it led to what we saw at the platform committee where you had jim zugby and all these people debate debating in a serious way the question of palestine. when you have cornell west on the democratic platform committee, you know there has been a change. the filmmaker, josh fox said about that debate, all of our real gains are movement gains. these are not gains that

democratic establishment politicians came into office with. i want to end with this sense about where our movement is right now. that's what's really fundamental here. we are at a moment where this norm normal i zation gives you incredible opportunities. when we started, we had 7, 8, 12 people in a room. we were scared. we didn't know what we were doing. three months later came 9/11. we were really scared. we thought, what the hell are we doing? it was the wrong time. it was the right time. now, we are seeing that kind of growth. the u.s. peace movement is not in good shape, has not been able to fully take on the challenge that's needed for u.s. involvement in the wars in syria, in iraq, in yemen, support for the saudi war inem en, all of that.

we see the creativity, the young people, the people of color are centered in the movement for palestinian rights, the most creative tactics and strategies. it is not only bds. bds is huge. it is about direct challenges to the u.s. military aid to israel. it's direct challenge to the legitimacy of the lobby, challenging the insistence of the u.s. in supporting israeli violations in the u.n. so that israeli officials are never held accountable. all of this is now up for grabs in a way that it has never been before. it's the movements that have made that possible. the goal is not just to change discourse, obviously. the goal is to change policy. our democracy, as we know, is very seriously flawed. it is very, very broken. as our elections have shown. nonetheless, one of the things that has to happen before there can be policy change, there has

to be a change in discourse. it is not enough but it is the first step. boy, have we gotten well on our way. nang you. hi, everyone. i'm really happy to be here and phillies is a tough act to follow. it is interesting, because i think what she said, what she said, built up nicely to what i'm gonna say. i think it is very true that the

gains that have been made here in the u.s. on the palestine issue are largely, you know, due to popular movements to a growing u.s. movement, a growing u.s. movement for palestinian rights. onned other -- on the other hand, what phyllis hadn't gotten to yet was the reaction to this movement. that's what i'm going to focus on today. i don't want to rain on any parades. i think it is important to understand what we are dealing with right now, given the strength in movement.

right now it seems like there has been a tectonic shift now that trump is president-elect. it doesn't feel right to say that. certainly, when it comes to israel/palestine, we just don't know. we don't know what. >> is going to happen. it will be potentially worse than clinton, i think, if only because he seems entirely willing to torpedo whatever u.s. policy was there before him. he doesn't care about the u.n. he doesn't care about even appearing to stick with decades of u.s. foreign policy. so i think that's part of what's most threatening about him that, he will go his own route entirely without any respect for what's come before.

i'm going to talk a little bit how the u.s. role in israel pal stin has shifted for the growing role of movement for palestinian rights. as a tactic but not exclusively bds. as phyllis mentioned, this has been cat tallized by success if i have, horrific wars on gaza, the mobilization of tens of thousands of people protesting. i think a couple of points about this u.s. movement that i want to make. one of them is how centered the movement is on campuses, how critical students have been in bringing this issue to peers on their campuses, how creative, what kinds of creative

strategies they have come up with, as phyllis mentioned, mock check points to show what it is like to be a palestinian in occupied territory. mock eviction notices, posted on dormroom doors to show what it is like to be forcibly removed from your home. of course, divestment campaigns, all kinds of interesting tactics to raise wearness aboawareness. the other point is how diverse the movement has come. phillies alluded to this. the kind of intersectionality that is happening and the cross-movement work that is happening is critical. and phyllis' point about how important it will be moving

forward. i want to really hold that up. palestine, in my view, will continue to be a central issue but we are going to see so many communities under direct attack. what has with the real movement, the real organizing between communities will demand this kind of support, this kind of standing up for the most vulnerable among us. then, finally, bds, as a tactic, has really shifted the way that folks here are active on the issue of palestine. so i'll talk a little bit more about bds. specifically, in the u.s. of course, it is global all over

the world. we know that boycotts are not a new tactic. certainly, palestinians have used them before. during the british mandate, et cetera. but the bds movement, which dates to 2005 and the call from over 178 palestinian civil society organizations to the international community has created a new level of engagement on this. i think the demands of the bds movement are also important to recognize and how instrumental those demands have been in widening the focus of the movement for palestinian rights. it is about ending the occupation and taking down the wall but it is also about guaranteeing equal rights for

palestinian citizens of israel and recognizing the apartheidlike regime that currently exists and also respecting the right of return for palestinian refugees. i think the fact that it encompasses all of these demands is really important in the way that it has shaped activism and the kind of political conversation that is happening. since 2005, this call for boyco boycott divestment and sanctions has been heeded by organizations around the world. we have seen significant victories. just in the u.s., we have seen academic boycotts, academic associations going through years of organizing to resolve in the end to accept resolutions that call for an academic boycott of

israeli academic institutions. you have the american studies association, the asian-american studies association, the national associatio national association of chicano and ciacana studies. there are many of them. this has been a significant development i think just in the last three years, really. divestments. the lutherans have called for end of aid to israel. in universities have called on their companies to divest from

company that is profit in israeli human rights investigations. these are huge victories. they have caught the attention of israel and its allies. we have artists and musicians and actors speaking out on this issue. so let's talk about the response to this movement. i think what is most important to realize here is that this is a testament to how successful the movement has become. how much it has changed public discourse to the point where a presidential candidate can say what he said.

the backlash we are seeing originates with israel itself, which has pledged millions of dollars to combatting bds specifically and is supported by dozens of groups in the united states that specifically support israel and the zionist agenda. we have sheldon aidle son raising over $20 million to combat palestinian activism and millions of dollars dedicated by a number of organizations to undermining this growing movement. i think the thing that when we are thinking about the u.s. role

in this, what is dictating how the u.s. in the form of government officials, in the form of public institutions like universities in the form of government agencies is responding to this. there are a few things to think about. it seems the u.s. and its officials are really listening to the israeli alarmism about bds. that's kind of the boogeyman that represents, i think, a larger movement. what has resulted is that israel has labeled bds as a strategic threat of the first order. it has labeled bds as anti-sem

mittic. it has attempted to link it to terrorism or to imply it is just as bad. the u.s., we've seen, that it has followed suit. we'll discuss some of the wayls in which it has done that. my organization, palestine legal, put out a report last year documenting what we have seen around the country to the suppression of speech on palestine, of activities on palestine. we termed it the palestine exception to free speech. it seems like you can talk about basically anything in this country but if you criticize israel, hold on. you are vulnerable to a lot of

attacks. it has really presented a challenge to our first amendment rights and the enforcement of these rights. what we have seen is, you know, since 2014, we have documented nearly 600 incidents of suppression. a lot of these are happening on campuses but not all of them. the way that these, this plays out is in several ways. we see academic freedom suspended. how many of you have heard about the case of steven sarita, fired, terminated. he hadn't yet started teaching but he had a contract and was getting ready to start teaching at the university of illinois, champagne, urbana. his contract was terminated, because he was tweeting in the summer of 2014 about the

horrific attack on gaza. how many of you have heard about the recent incident at university of california, berkley. >> yes. >> a student proposed a course on palestine flew a colonial settler analysis. an administrator arbitrarily suspended it after, of course, significant pressure from israel advocacy groups. it was reinstated a week later after a lot of uproar and pressure. that's significant but we see that kind of thing all of the time. where any talk or any study of palestine is immediately biased, is immediately one-sided, is propaganda, et cetera.

we are seeing this in legal complaints, in lawsuits. so we have several organizations filing complaints under title 6 of the civil rights act claiming that universities are discriminating against jewish students by allowing a hostile anti-semitic environment. the basis of these claims are that lectures and film screenings and protests threaten jewish students and leaves them vulnerable. so the most basic of activities, talking about palestine, are

painted as anti-semitic. we see students disciplined all the time with being anti-semitic, and threatening jewish students and going through months of disciplinary processes and investigations. when we intervene, when universities investigate, they find, this is political speech. this is not an attack on jewish students. the same has happened actually with these title 6 complaints i have mentioned. the department of education investigates them and has found over and over that the first amendment protects these activities. this is political speech and that's what the first amendment is for, thank god. then, i think very important that we've seen more recently smear campaigns against individuals. how many of you have heard about

canary mission, for example, a website that profiles hundreds of students and academics claiming that they are anti-sem mystic and pro-terrorist, with the aim of preventing them from getting jobs. we see hundreds of students very worried about this. their careers hang on it. their future employers will google them and this is what will come up. then, we have things like the david horowitz freedom center plastering posters all over college campuses naming individual students and saying these students are terrorist supporters. if you support them, you support hamas. great. so this kind of public, black listing is going on a allot.

then, we have legislation. i think the legislation we're seeing around the country is particularly representative of the length that government officials will go to oppose bds, in particular. so let's talk a little about about that. the alarmism about bds is evident in the legislation we are seeing. they are calling it discriminatory, anti-semitic, andrew cuomo calling it worse than terrorism itself. we have seen a couple of waves of this. the first was starting in 2014 in response to the american studies academic boycott resolution. you had several states proposing legislation that tried to defund

universities that support or participate in an academic boycott. meaning any university that pays or subsidizes its faculty to go to a conference, an asa conference, for example. these all failed, partly because of the huge opposition, even "the new york times" editorialized against it. because it us r is just so blatantly unconstitutional, mainly. more recently, we have a new kind of legislation proposed in many states. we have dozens of pieces of legislation doing a few things. first, you have resolutions that are nonbinding that merely condemn boycotts. they don't really hold any weight. they can't do anything. they are an expression of the legislators position about bds. they are harmful in the chilling

effect that they have for people who are talking about this or who want to talk about this. then, we have bills that are proposed. they do one or all of the following. they create black lists of companies, nonprofits, institutions, individuals that p participate or promote bds. they required the state to divest its funds from those companies on the black list. some don't have a black list. some prevent the state from contracting with companies that engage in bds. there are 13 states now that have passed these laws, including new york, through an executive order of the governor. it is hard to say what the impact of these laws are.

we think in practical terms it may not be so big but the chilling effect is huge. people think, oh, this bds has been criminalized. oh, if i do this, i will put myself in danger. that's their intention, to scare people off from engaging on this issue. then, we have congressional legislation as well. a few bills. i think we are bound to see more. so trump -- i'm sorry to show you a picture. i feel like we have seen him a lot and we are going to see a lot more. we expect the assault on palestine activism to continue. one things that phillies didn't mention that he has said or his adviser has said, they plan to ask the department of justice to investigate campus activism.

this is a step beyond the department of education. this is going to reinforce the surveillance, the targeting, the smearing of activists. there is hope. i will end on this note. there is increasing support for palestinian rights, as i phyllis talked a lot about. the opinion polls are showing that. young people are more and more supportive. there is a shift. in order to keep that going, we have to remove this stigma that this legislation is helping to show that all these concerted attacks on palestine activism are making possible. we have to push back against

that. it's possible and i think it is hopeful, because there is such an important history of boycotts used to further social justice. it's a time-honored tactic in the u.s. and globally. it has been used in the most important social justice movements in the u.s. certainly. then, there is the law. we have the first amendment. very clear supreme court precedents saying that boycotts are protected first amendment activity, boycotts to affect political, economic and social change, which is what bds is. so, you know, it is our duty, responsibility to make sure those rights are protected. if we don't, they will be forsaken. that's what palestine legal's role is. that's how we see our role. if we are able to do that, if we

are able to keep this space for this movement to grow, for the public opinion to keep shifting, we can have an effect on u.s. policy in the long-run.

>> thank you very much for the palestine center ab the jerusalem fund for inviting me. thank you for the panelists and for all of you for attending. my comments are about the issue of palestine, the arab uprisings and the arab political scene. they follow pretty smoothly from what jeanette talked about, the historical background. the time is getting tight. i will stick to 10, 15 minutes and give you my main bullet point ideas. my basic points are the following. the struggle for arab national rights, viable statehood, legitimate statehood and true sovereignty and citizenship rights all across the arab world was manifested most dramatically by the arab uprisings of six years ago. we have never had such a deep,

widespread an on going expression for the request for statehood and citizenship across the arab world as we did six years ago. it is continuing in many forms. this is the latest manifestation of the struggle that started in the 1920s as jeanette very accurately pointed out. so the quest for palestinian rights and the quest for arab legitimate, credible and lasting statehood, sovereignty and citizenship, are part of the same historical quest. they reflect a common sentiment and common rights that permeate every arab country without exception. the fact that neither of them have been able to be fully attained with the possible exception of tunisia, which is

the full and only self-determine nat arab citizenry. the fact that these rights have not been attained reflects a combination of factors, organizational, institutional, international, counter revolutionary forces, counter democratic forces from the arab world, from the zionist movement in israel, from the western world. there are many different reasons. we know why we haven't achieved either palestinian nationhood and citizenship or arab true sovereignty and citizenship rights across the arab world. the important thing to recognize is that these are two dimensions of the same struggle, the reason the palestine issue continues to resonate, not just across the arab world but the entire world. you see this now perhaps the most common symbol of citizen

resistance is the kafia. you see this all over the world. your people are struggling in china, belgium, chile, wherever and they have the kafia on and they don't do this because it is a fashion statement. they do it because it is a symbol of a common human struggle for rights that are anchored both in the modern institutions of citizenship, the u.n. declaration of human rights and call for self-determination and also anchored in the ancient morality of the abrahamic phase, the quest for justice and only justice as god told moses to tell the hebrews to tell the world. that quest for justice is manifested most dramatically across the entire world by the symbolism of the palestine issue. this is one reason why it

continues to grow. it hasn't yet come to fruition and had the result that is we want. the fact that it is growing and you heard from the previous speakers, all the fascinating and important trends within the united states among students, the media, some politicians, the churches, the mainstream churches, labor unions, professional associations, academic groups and most importantly, the demographics between the jewish american community and the younger people under 40 clearly more evenhanded saying that palestinians and israelis should have equal rights to statehood, citizenship and security and the integrity of their national conscienceness. this is something that is now widespread and anchored in this political sentiments and the value systems of americans under the age of 45. among older americans, it is

still problematically tilted to a blind, pro-israeli position without giving the palestinian equal rights but the trend over time even among jewish americans and we shouldn't be surprised. young jewish americans are manifested their identity as americans and as jews and both of those characterizations are anchored in peace, justice an equality for all people whether it is dictated by the american constitution or the memory of moses. the young americans and the young american jews are the critical community that we should reach out to, understand, talk to have and formal lineses with for the well-being of all americans, particularly jewish americans. if people are worried about islamaphobia and other problems that have raised their head in the united states, they should remember that anti-semitism is

the oldest one of these criminal deeds and it is already rearing its head a little bit and there needs to be a very strong alliance between arab, jews, and all americans of good conscious and integrity. one of the things, by the way, that i would recommend, is that i think we in the palestinian-american community, with others, we should start holding conferences to understand anti-semitism. anti-semitism is a crime and a cancer and we are its ultimate victims as well as the jewish people. we need to raise that issue with our jewish brothers and sisters and really understand it and try to cut it before it grows. the links between the arab system and the arab political world today and the issue of

palestine and uprisings, i think, is very clear. we have a lot of hesitance now. we didn't have 20 years ago. we have it now because of polling, which is now more common across the air rob world. we have a lot of evidence repeatedly confirmed year after year that the palestine issue and justice for palestinians resonates deeply across the arab world with ordinary people. it resonates deeply and continuously and almost without exception when people in arab countries are polled and asked, what do you see as the major threat to your society, your country, whether it is algeria, morocco, saudi arabia, or tunis or whatever, the top two issues people see as threats to their arab countries are usually israel and american foreign policy. the exception recently has been among some people in the gulf who see iran as the biggest

threat. that is a legitimate perception from their perspective. i personal think it is wildly exaggerated but you have to treat people with dignity and understand them as they jupd stan themselves. there are arabs that see iran as a bigger threat than anything else. theov overwhelming majority of arabs see israel, zionist, colonialism, and american foreign policy as the biggest threat to their well-being. one of the first things we should understand is that in the perception. why is it that people are so strongly in solidarity with palestinians. why should somebody in morocco oremm or yemen care about palestine.

it is the only link between nation the rights, dignity, composure and a regular life among people all over the arab world. there are other problems as welch t well. the continued colonial expansion policy of the current and recent israeli governments is that only living, continuous link from the late 19th century to the early 21st century. people feel that in their bones. you don't have to go and explain it to them. they feel it in their bones in the same way that young girls in birmingham, alabama, in 1955, took their tooth brushes and went out to march knowing they were going to go to jail. they didn't have to explain it to them. nobody had to tell them this was wrong. they felt it. it wasn't ideology.

it was biology. people all over the arab world feel exactly the same thing. when their governments, in some cases, have to get permission from the israeli government to buy some arms or some computer components from some american company, that is pretty degrading for people. the real issue is the unattained state of national integrity and legitimate national sovereignty. i believe that this is the common problem and common threat and common source of hugh millation, not just irritation and anger but deep hugh millation for people all across the arab world. historically, there are other ways in which the palestine issue links with political condition of the arab world and the arab uprising. i will mention only one or two.

tell me when i'm out of time in a few minutes. the biggest single problem in the modern arab world, i believe, i was born in 1948, have served my adult life and lived through this, has been the capture of state power by military people in arab countries. when did this start? '46, '48, '52. it was the 1947, 1948 conflict, coming to the full fruition, and the creation of israel and the disenfranchisement and refugeehood of the palestinians. ever since the late '40s,

despite many good things that nasser did and people remembered him for, the naserite regime created two of the most catastrophic dynamics that still haunt and shatter the arab world today, which is ruled by military men who are totally incompetent in running a government and the creation of ministries of information which is designed to close the minds of people and forbidding them to use their learning, reading, speaking and becoming enlightened full human beings. the creation of military rule and the information ministry phenomenon, which started in egypt in 1952 and continues in egypt today as well as in many other arab countries, i think those two have been the most catastrophic things that explain many of the problems of the arab

world. why did these things happen and military people take over later in the '60s and '70s, specially in the late '60s and early '70s. saddam hussein, gadhafi, go across the region and name them one by one. these military men took over the control of their countries and why did they start doing this in the late '60s. even in the late '40s and '50s and in a big way the late '60s and '70s. they claimed it was the only way to protect their country and protect palestinian rights and fight for our rights and developments. they were broads. they couldn't do this. they weren't able to martial their national resources. the development of doctors, the

development of education for a woman. it was very impressive across the arab world in the '70s and '80s. arab world was not totally incompetent but have now shown to be completely and without any exception unable to govern in a manner that achieves both sustainable socioeconomic development or true national sovereignty that allows their country toss achieve their full potential. not a single arab country has been able to do this. the pressures we are feeling are significant. about 45% of young arabs are not learning anything in school. they can't read or write or do basic numeracy.

most of these people are going to drop out and you have situations where, for instance, in egypt, about 60%, 65% of new entrants to the labor market are people who go into what's called the informal sector. what does that mean? they can't do anything but clean a car window or carry groceries or sweep a doorstep. they have no protection, no contracts, no minimum wage, no life insurance, no pension funds. they have no rights as workers or as human beings. they are like donkeys. they work. they get $3, $4 a day and they go home. this is not just kids who leave high school. this is fathers and mothers of families. this is why in 2010, 2011, you had this mass uprising. a state of despair was reached by millions and millions of people across the arab world who were not able to achieve their basic rights.

we can trade this back unequivocally to the indirect consequence of the lack of palestinian rights in '47 and '48 and the adding of military regimes and the continuation of process. things are getting worse, not better. in the last 5 1/2 years since the arab uprisings, almost six years now, 54 million arabs have been born. 54 million new arab babies have been born in the last six years. the arab world couldn't feed them, educate them, give health care to its people in 2010, 2011. how are they going to deal with the 54 million? every year in egypt, 1.8, 1.9 million people are born. almost 10 million new egyptians since the uprising. so the trend is frightening. the reason it is frightening is because the arab governments despite some of the good things they do are totally incompetent at managing their countries and

i think the fact that they continue demand to exercise military rule under the guys of fake parliaments and constitutions that are not respected, et cetera, is clearly traceable to issues related to palestine. part of the uprisings were due to the sense among large numbers of citizens that their governments neither had efficacy nor legitimacy. they were not able to provide them with their basic needs and sense of hope and rights as political men and women and citizens. their governments were not able to address the challenge of israel and zionism, either through war or through peace. therefore, the degrading of the legitimacy of arab governments and regimes, i believe was significantly influenced by

their incompetent who resfons to the challenge of zionism and israel over the years. the fact that the arab public cares deeply about palestine should remind us this issue is not going to go away. when the palestine issue started in '47, '48, when israel was created, there was about 750,000 palestinian refugees that had to forcibly leave palestine. there was about 1.5 million palestinians then. there is around 9 million palestinians today. the activism for palestine at the local level, regional level, national level, and the international level, is far greater today than it ever was in the past 50 years. i just will end on a note we

need to keep in mind that the palestine issue, unlike what israeli and american officials and many people here will tell you, and i hear it all the time, unlike what they say, that, well, the palestine issue, real lirks the arabs don't care about it. it is a secondary issue. they are busy with the uprisings. the uprisings happened because of incompetent and brutal arab regimes put in part because they used the palestine issue as an excuse to take power. i think we need to keep these points, these relationships very clear. therefore, resolving the arab/israeli conflict, the oldest and most destabilizing and radicalizing force in the arab world still today, the rise of the muslim brothers, the rise of groups like kahada and others, heavily is linked to their grievances about their government unable to deal with the palestine threat. today, they are demonstrating, because they don't want the

government to buy gas from israel. there is something in our society. it is not in our water. it is in our blood. there is something that tells people there is a problem in palestine. justice has to be and security for israelis and palestinians simultaneously. that has been very clear. and therefore, we need to keep in mind these relationships between our friends in the arab world, the palestine issue, the uprisings that happened and were suppressed, and what is going to come when 54 million new people are born every six years. thank you very much. [ applause ] >> i think this has been a very thoughtful discussion about the issues of the hour, issues of the day. this is for questions and answers.

i would like to remind the audience of a few rules, please. first, anybody who wants to ask a question, please use their mike, identify yourself and any association you might have, and direct the question to one of the panelists. more importantly, we can't really have lectures from the audience and editorials. we all have feelings we would like to express, but this is the time to ask specific questions and address them to a specific panelist. we will try to be inclusive, gender-neutral and everything else, and there will come a point when i say enough because i'm terribly hungry, and i'm sure a few of you are. and i apologize for the heat in the room. we are trying to fix that. so, having said that, i would like to start on the right side and have the first one who lifted his hand ask the question, the very far right.

>> you mentioned, of course, the declaration, but other things like the king's commission and there's also the talk of the zionist to the league of nations. and the king's commission appointed by which is -- wilson, concluded that the national homeland for the jewish people is not equivalent to making palestine into a jewish state. in other words, the united states rejected the jewish state very early, and the zionist before the league of nations showed a map which went up to the river 20 miles south of beirut and over to amman, which is only ten miles west, which they wanted the water rights. so, my question is why are not these two very prophetic,

invaluable documents not talked about today, because they seem to apply very well to the situation and really clarify the situation? >> unfortunately, the report of the king crane commission was shelved, and nobody even looked at it at the time. i mean, it did some good work. it did sound out public opinion. and i think the people gathering in versailles were not receptive to these ideas. they had their own agendas. they had their own axes to grind. and people like you and maybe other people today might look back at this as what could have been an important document. unfortunately, it had almost zero consequences, in fact. so, there were efforts to get

some justice, some fairness for the arabs, but this was, on the part of britain, for instance, to satisfy some of the promises and this took the form of making abdullah king of jordan and faisal king of iraq. so again, this was connected with the issue of crushing french influence. the french were totally furious when faisal was made king of iraq. they thought that the british had stabbed them in the back by doing this. so what we have is people in power who are concerned with opposed interest creates room

for achievement of some goals that are helpful to the arabs. but other than that -- i mean, in the case of palestine, palestine is the case of the mandate in which the function of the mandatory power was totally frustrated. it wasn't carried out. they should have arranged for the palestinians to reach the stage of self-determination, to reach the stage of governing themselves, and eventually to attain sovereignty at the same time as creating a homeland for the jews and palestine, homeland meaning a place where jews could get together and establish their institutions in a land to which they felt historic ties. so, in iraq, in syria, in lebanon, the mandatory power did

much more than the british did in palestine. palestine was short-changed, totally. >> right here, please. >> thank you very much. benjamin, retired diplomat. if anyone would like to comment, that be fine. a lot of different countries and continents have been mentioned, but there's been hardly a word about russia. maybe i missed it. russia is playing a greater role in the middle east, has good relations with israel, has good relations with the palestinians, has a significant presence in the west bank, including the net board company which is russian owned, and it may be having better relations with the united states. prime minister medvedev i

believe, is now in the middle east visiting israel and palestine. please comment on the evolving role and influence of russia in the palestinian/israeli conflict. >> well, during the cold war you had people in the arab world who are with russia or supported by russia and others with the u.s., so they were involved, but it was really as proxies for a global contest. today, the situation i think is very different. you know, russia has essentially supported autocrats and dictators to the same extent that the u.s. has. and unlike the u.s., doesn't even pretend to talk about democracy and rights and dignity. they just go in there and sell arms and do their thing and achieve what they think is in their national interest.

today they're acting much more forcefully and with a lot more clarity, and clarity of aims in the middle east than the americans are. the russians are re-establishing stronger ties with a whole series of people in the region -- turkey, iran, egypt. they're even playing footsies with saudi arabia. they're acting with statesmanship that is very impressive at the practical level, while at the substantive level, i don't particularly want to live in a country like russia. they have a lot of problems in terms of how they deal with their country and with other people, so they're not an attractive model or anything like that, but they're certainly outplaying the united states and the western powers in much of the region, but people deal with the russians on a very mercantile basis. they get something from them, they give them something.

these are not lovy-dovy long-term relationships based on any kind of shared values other than autocrats rule and rule forever. that basis and what we're seeing in syria, they're much more decisive than before, and therefore, they are in a stronger position. but i don't think they have a long-term future, other than through mercantile relationships. [ inaudible question ] yeah, but they'll make deals if it serves them. they don't care about arab people, i don't think, really. they care about russian people. they care about russia. and the incumbency of their regime and the strength of their country and protecting their interests. they will sell out bashar al assad if they can get something really significant in return. and we've seen how they, you know, they flip and flop and they change policies. [ inaudible question ] yeah, they're a big power acting like a normal big power. >> very good. right here, please. can you get the mike?

>> i'm norah bauer from jbp. i'm going to ask you about another part of your scholarship about a bi-national state. i'd like you to talk about your thinking on a bi-national state and how it could avoid being an apartheid state. >> yeah. well, i wrote an article back in 1997 on this topic. and i'm afraid nothing has changed to sway opinion away from this. i think a two-state solution is that. you're not going to get a two-state solution. so what you're going to get is one state in which the palestinians, their rights really are the rights that conquered people as under the geneva convention. they don't have political