>> my district's sent a different message to the country in november than the rest of the country what they wanted to see in washington. what my district talked about, it's important we have an economy that's working for everyone where working families know they can get ahead and give their children a better quality of life. i'll be working on that. my district cares deeply about addressing immigration reform and protecting these dreamers who trusted their government and want to be full parts of our communities. they want me to work to make sure that we address the scourge of gun violence that is effecting communities across the nation and in particular illinois and to introduce and fight for common sense legislation that will give our kids a fighting chance. that legislation that will promote education to give every child wherever she lives the opportunity for a quality education and to be able to afford to go to college. these are the things that i look forward to working on the most. >> congressman brad snyder, thank you for your time. >> thank you. it's been good talking.

this week on q and a, mr. pulleo discusses his book. >> steven pulleo, welcome. what's that about? who is harry neil? >> he was one of the great secret service agents during the second world war and later on during his career as a secret service agent he was responsible for transferring some of americas most priceless

documents, the declaration of independence. this date was december 26th, 1941, the day after america's pearl harbor christmas. >> how did he get involved and why did they go to fort knox? >> the secret service gets involved when the library of congress needs help. he's kind of responsible for these documents and he wants really the top law enforcement agency in the country at the time, the secret service, to help him with this move. fort knox was chosen because it was america's most impenetratable location. it had been open several years prior. there had been lots of gold already transferred there. so the secretary of the treasury gives permission to use a portion of the deposit oer for these documents. >> which documents went there.

>> lincoln's second inaugural address and the copy of the magga carter which the united states was holding on to for safe keeping for britain. the british had sent it to the united states for the 1939 world's fair. when the war broke out in europe, asked us to hold on to it for protection. >> so it left over here at union station how did it get to fort fox? >> it gets to fort knox on the baltimore ohio national limited train overnight which goes out to louisville. there it's met by other agents, secret service agents, and a military -- a group of military vehicles and they transfer it from there to fort knox. >> what's the thinking as to why it needed to go there? all these items needed to go there? >> tremendous concern, brian, in washington at the time of an attack, either a bombing attack or sabotage on the nation's

capital. so there was -- it was a harrowing time here. there were guards everywhere, guns on the roofs, the white house windows were painted black and there was talk of painting the white house black. the oval office is fitted with bullet-proof glass. fdr and his staff are given gas masks. he keeps his on the arm of his wheelchair because of potential for attacks. there was great concern by president roosevelt and others that the destruction of the original declaration, the original constitution, would have this disastrous psychiatric impact on the country as a well. >> we have video. it's after he was the librarian of congress so we can see what he looked like and what he sounded like. >> this has always been the policy of the american people. peace is now the necessity of the american people. if there is another war, if

there is another aggressor, the united states will be the first target of that aggressor's action. >> he was in the state department at that time. what were his politics? how close was he to fdr and who started -- who got interested in saving these documents first? >> so he was a very staunch ant anti-faushist. he was concerned that some of other intellectual friends, he was a man of the arts, he was a poet, he was concerned those folks didn't take the nazi threat seriously. he wept when the nazis marched into france. he believed it was his duty in taking an active role in protecting the documents and he did that. it's one of the reasons that fdr taps him in 1939, he has the

foresig foresight, he knows this issue is under way, the nazis are about to -- running rough shod in europe or are going to run rough shod in europe are making threats. one of the reasons he taps him is because of his position, his anti-nazi, anti-faushist position. fdr i think initially has the idea about the documents. he's quite concerned. he views himself as a real steward of these documents. very very important to him. when he brings him on board, he immediately shares this concern with him, which he shares as well. they're both aware by 1940 that the british have lost many many documents during the blitz, during the bombings of london. the germans have destroyed many documents in europe. lots of books, potentially, particularly by jewish authors and others. and so this is a real concern these would be a target. >> what about all the on the documents in the library of

congress or in the national archives, what happened to them at this point? >> yeah, the library of congress, this movement of the declaration of the constitution begins the largest relocation of priceless documents for safe keeping in american history. about 5,000 boxes of other documents, precious documents are moved from the library of congress to university repositories that are somewhat inland. the university of virginia, char lotsville, washington, dennisson university in grandville. they are moved there after the library of congress staff people examine around 60 locations in the area that would be somewhat inland and somewhat protected from potential bombing attacks and had all the requisite needs to protect documents. so humidity issues had to be dealt with. leakage and water issues had to be dealt with.

were they protected from mice and vermin. that begins that process from january to may of 1942 these documents are moved totally in secret. >> how did they move them? >> they moved them by truck. by tractor-trailer, if you will. the boxes were packed in the library of congress and stored in the basement and moved late at night to these different reposatories around virginia and ohio. >> how many people were involved in getting these boxes ready? >> it was quite an amazing task. about 700 staffers devote about 10,000 hours of their time to assessing, collecting, packing these documents and getting them ready. he was very adamant that he wanted documents that were utterutte utterly irreplaceable to be part of this effort and he asks them to break them into six tiers.

you moved down tier by tier for the importance of the documents, but maybe not essential to the replacement of the american public. it was very well thought out and it starts in the late 1940s. so a year before pearl harbor. >> 1940? >> 1940, yes, a full year before pearl harbor, yeah. >> what were the requirements at these locations and start with fort knox? where were they actually put in fort knox? >> they were put right in the gold bullion depositatory. at the time there was lots of gold in fort knox. it was at its peak at about that time, 1941, 1942. so he has to make a decision. what documents are going to be there? the original engrossed declaration? definitely. the article engrossed

federation? definitely. the gettysburg address considered critical. he makes this decision very methodically i think on what's going to go to fort knox. these are considered the most valuable documents in the country. and the mag nau carta is the document that he's been asked to preserve. he thought it was quite ironic and thought jefferson would approve that they would be in that same area in fort knox. >> talk about the lincolns gettysburg's address. there's five copies including one in the lincoln bedroom and one on the cornell, two in either -- in the library of congress and then another one is at the illinois historical -- maybe as far as i know it may be in the lincoln museum by now. what's considered the gettysburg's address? >> the library of congress has the two copies lincoln's aids

essentially. the one that was considered used right on the battlefield, the so-called battlefield copy and then that he then copies over and gives to his two aids, that's the copies of the gettysburg's address, copies one and two if you will as they are labeled when they go to fort knox. and then the other copies are copies that lincoln did in his own hand and did for close political advisors, friends, those sorts of things. those are the ones that you're referring to. library of congress has the first two copies. >> what did the public know about the movement of these documents at the time they were moved? >> virtually nothing. these documents were moved in secrecy. there were folks on the receiving end at the university who knew they were getting boxes from the library of congress. they weren't sure what was in them, but they maintained the secret. one of the things that he marvels about in his reports

after is that everybody kept this a secret. truck drivers, packers, library staffers, folks on the other end who unloaded the trucks, you name it. there was not a leak as part of this. >> when did they return to washington? >> they returned to washington in september of 1944. so three months or so after d-day. use that as your point in history. there's little concern at that point that the germans are going to attack the mainland because they're on the run, basically, as the allies are moving across europe and the documents are brought back. there is one exception prior to that, the original declaration of independence is brought back on april 13th, 1943 for one week. it's during the dedication of the jefferson memorial. fdr thinks it would be really good for national moral to have the original declaration on display. it is thousands of people view it. it's under marine guard for 24

hours. and then it's put back into fort knox. nobody knows where it came from or where it was going back to. >> other people in your book governor morris, what role has he played? >> the governor of pennsylvania, the man with the strange first name as it's called, some people think he was governor morris of pennsylvania, but that is really his first name, he writes the very famous and eloquent p preamble to the constitution. morris i think explains the whole purpose of the constitution, explains how important it is with that preamb preamble. is really the author of that preamble from beginning to end. one other thing i think he does during the discussion of the presidency is he makes it very

very clear that the chief executive, this is during the constitutional convention in 1787, the chief executive would not be the king. he should not be viewed as the king in this new government. he's more like the prime minister. the people of the king, he says. this whole notion of the people bestowing the power upon government and not the other way around, he's one of the people that continues that codifies that in the constitution, the principal that was first articulated in the declaration of independence. >> my memory is -- he's 35 years old soor something like that? >> yeah, he was very young. >> where was he from? >> he was from pennsylvania. he was a patriot. he was a delegate to the constitution. he had other elected positions in pennsylvania, so he was considered in many ways an

intelle intelle intellectual and in many ways he had this reputation of having a great sense of humor and had a reputation of being a fill la land landerer. when the rubber meet the road his days show through. >> who is tim knee matlock. >> he is a friend of jefferson's, a patriot, the continental congress wants the declaration engrossed for all time and then signed afterwards. matlock is that engrosser. it takes him a couple of weeks

to do it. that document is now at the national archives, the document that americans may see hanging in school buildings or government offices or may have in their own homes, that's the engrossed copy of the declaration and it's signed by most of the delegates. >> how many copies are recognize in had as first generation copies that are around? >> well, so the engrossed copy of the declaration of independence is at the national archives, the original. there's one copy of that. you may be referring to the dunlap broad sides which are the declaration of independence printed copies that were printed on the night of july 4th, 1776 in hot type in john dunlaps printing shop signed only by john han cog. there are about 17 of those that exist today, but the engrossed copy with all the signatures of the delegates, there's one.

it's been reproduced many times. in 1823 is when the exact fact s similar facsimile is reproduced. the original that's in the ro tunda, there's one. >> is there a story behind how it got to a facsimile? >> yeah. john quincy adams asked an engraver here in washington, d.c. to produce an exact replica. there had been people that produced certain replicas of the declaration, whether it was exact, who had the official replica version, so he says to stone go produce something that's exact and he does. it takes him about three years to painstakingly do it. but the document you see now, the one that as i say you may have hanging in your home or a

school classroom, is incredibly exact. right down to the signatures which is pretty amazing. >> do you have any idea how much a dunlap be valued today? >> i don't. i know that there's been assessments done by the library of congress that range in the hundreds of the thousands. but i don't really have an exact number on what that would be. >> do you know where the 17 are? >> the library of congress has one. i believe the mass historical society has one. they're located around in different societies, yeah. >> who was stephen pleasanton. >> a real hero in american history, i think. he was a state department clerk in 1814, when the british invade and burn washington. they storm in, they burn the capitol, they burn the president's house, they burn other buildings in washington, and the state department, and he at that point in time thinks just before they get there, it's probably a good idea to save

some of the documents and to save the original declaration and the original constitution. and he does so. he stuffs them into a linen sack, and drives them by wagon 35 miles away and puts them in an abandoned farmhouse. he does it in defiance of the secretary of war at the time who says he doesn't believe it's necessary, he dent think the british are coming to washington, d.c. he believes baltimore was their target, which is correct, it was as well. the secretary of war totally underestimates the potential value of the destruction of these documents. pleasanton does not. he makes that save. and is, again, one of the people who have been stewards of these documents throughout history. >> so where did this book come from? >> this book comes -- i read a small magazine article several years ago about the fact that these documents -- the big three as i call them, the declaration,

the constitution, and gettysburg address were moved to fort knox during the second world war. i never heard of this. i'm shocked. i consider myself something of an expert on the second world war on the home front and had no idea this was happening. i said, i need to research this. that was kind of the genesis of the idea. and as i went through the library of congress documents and primary sources on these -- on this move, on this massive move, i then said, wow, what's the why here? why did we go through so much trouble? what makes these documents so important? and i realized i had to kind of go back and look at the creation of these documents, the preservation of these documents, the rescue of these documents, and the ideas contained in these documents. that's why the book reads in this kind of braided narrative going back and forth from world war ii, to 1776, or 1787, or

1814. that's why the book is written that way. >> one line on page 236, given what people are saying today, i found it very interesting, americans' lack of interest in its history troubled the founders. today we have a lot of people think that nobody cares about history. was it that bad back then? >> well, i think there was a bit of amnesia. and this is basically prior to the war of 1812. the war of 1812 kind of rekindles this patriotic fervor, if you will, or spirit in the founders. and then that really comes to play in july 4th of 1826. so america's golden jubilee, the 50th anniversary of the declaration of independence, when americans really celebrate that day. there is this kind of rekindling of patriotic fervor, and on july

4th, 1826, two of america's greatest founders, thomas jefferson and john adams, both die on july 4th. and i think that raises the fourth of july and increases the patriotic fervor to a whole new level. so, yeah, there was lots of concern at the time prior to that. >> so how did you go about it? >> doing the research, is that what you mean? >> yeah. >> the documents in the library of congress on this topic are there. the mcleash papers are there. lots in the mcleash papers and lots in the move of documents. and in the national archives is a substantial amount of documentation on this, too. because eventually, of course, in 1952, these documents are moved to the national archives, the declaration and the constitution. so lots of primary source material in there as well. so that kind of kicks the thing off. and then tremendous amount of primary sources on these

different periods, 1776, 1787, in fact, ironically, the james madison's notes of the constitutional convention in 1787, those are saved in 1814 by dolly madison, who literally rescues them at the last minute from the white house. and i thought as i was going through madison's papers, i would not have the opportunity to do this if not for dolly madison's heroism in 1814. >> how does did you get to these documents? >> so the documents on the move are primary source documents, actual physical touching of the documents. many of the other documents from these different periods are used online. they're digitized. so john adams' papers, for example, are totally digitized by the mass historical society. it's a wonderful treasure trove of documents. madison's papers are digitized

at the library of congress. that's wonderful. so really, a lot of that research, that original research from then you can do really in a digital way. which is a fascinating way to do research. >> here's some video, the transfer you just mentioned. december the 13th, 1952. as we watch it on screen, why is there a transfer from the library of congress down to the national archives? >> so the national archives, which the cornerstone is laid in 1933, and the feeling at the time is the archives was going to be a place where americans could view their documents. and of course, the declaration of the constitution were among the most prominent. there's lots of turf fighting. and bureaucratic infighting between the library of congress and the archives during that time. and it takes a while before that decision is finally made. world war ii interrupts that. and the documents move to fort

knox. and then after that, finally, the national archivists at the time, wayne grover and the librarian of congress get together and say it's probably about time we move these documents. and put them in the national archives for americans to see. and enshrine them. and on bill of rights day, december 15th, two days after that procession we just watched, harry truman presides over the enshrinement of those documents. >> how far did you travel, besides washington, to get this story? >> so, i mean, i did my research in the boston area, i did my research in washington. that was mainly the predominant place that i was able to do it, which was fantastic. and as i said, the number of primary sources that are available to kind of make this happen was great. so, yeah, it was wonderful. >> of all the stories you tell in there about the documents, what point would you have liked

to have been present when they were discovering either that the documents were flawed, in a way, and had to be repaired? >> where would i like to be present? i would have loved to have been present in 1814 when they were rescued, if that's one of the things behind your question. i think that must have been a fascinating time with pleasanton and dolly madison at the very last minute deciding to get these things out and move them. there's one period in 1942 when harvard's george stout who gets famous a few years later and his assistant are working on the declaration at fort knox. i think that would have been fascinating to watch them do their restorative work there. i think those are two of the more fascinating periods. and of course, i think anybody who writes history, enjoys history, would have loved to have been in philadelphia in 1776, and in 1787. and i think 1776 was just this seminal moment of july 1st

through 4th in american history, probably four of the most remarkable days in all of american history. but 1787 really interests me as well, because that constitutional convention nearly breaks apart, until the grand compromise, when the small state delegates and the large state delegates reach a compromise that the lower house of congress would be determined by population and the upper house, the senate would be determined by equal representation. i think that must have been a fascinating debate. >> if you go to the american history museum, you can see the desk where part of the declaration of independence was written by thomas jefferson. but you go into detail about how it was written in that time. where was it written physically? >> jefferson writes his draft in a house not too far from independence hall in philadelphia. but the decision on how to write it is kind of interesting. delegates set up a committee of five. jefferson's on it, adams is on

it, about enfranklin is on it. they're trying to determine who's going to write it. it was probably going to come down to jefferson or adams at the time. adams recollects later that he says to jefferson, i think you should write it. jefferson says, why. adams says, well, there's really three reasons. one, i'm from massachusetts and you're a virginian. we're considered much more radical in massachusetts. it's probably if you do it from a more tempered point of view. two, adams says to jefferson, i am much more obnoxious than you. so i think the delegates would feel much better if you wrote it. and three, he says to jefferson, you are ten times the writer i am. and i think that was probably true. so it's jefferson that pens the original draft of the declaration of independence. and then adams and franklin, for the most part, make some edits to that. and then it goes before the full continental congress, really on

july 3rd. and then on july 4th, it's adopted. >> so when they say that thomas jefferson was the author of the declaration of independence, what do you say? >> i say yes. i think jefferson himself admits that he used ideas from john locke. had eused ideas from montesscue. and one of the reasons he says, if i had introduced completely brand-new ideas, people would have had a hard time understanding them. but what he does is he writes majestically, i think, particularly the iconic second paragraph. we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. it's not the concepts of liberty and freedom and equality were brand-new, but a nation conceived in liberty certainly was. certainly was. >> so was there a time in the declaration of independence, the

document was in any kind of trouble and needed to be restored? >> well, yes, i think particularly it's really noticed for the first time at the american centennial in philadelphia in 1876. the document had been subjected to sunlight, hung in a state department building subjected to sunlight, in the same room as a fireplace. so kind of subjected to that kind of smoke that would have affected it. and there were great efforts to restore it after that period of time. and there are also decisions made to keep it in a drawer. and it is, after that, for several years, until really 1924 when it's moved to the library of congress and displayed in a shrine there. there are these steps that are taken throughout. and of course, in 1942, when stout and his assistant go to fort knox to -- so there's this great concern about it

deteriorating. >> what happened to it after that after it got back to washington and eventually got to the archive building? >> it's enshrined in the archives where it is today, in the rotunda. of course, the national archives beginning in really the mid 1980s brings in very high tech equipment, computerized monitoring. it's the -- the declaration is in temperature proof, atmospherically controlled conditions. so you can now -- there are now -- there's now computer systems that allow them to really look at every square inch of the document from deterioration. so there's a whole high-tech way of protecting those documents now. >> back in 2001, actually, 2005, a program called saving national treasures on pbs's nova. we can see a little bit of video from 2001 where there was

restoration. how long is this process when they go through one of these? >> are we going to see it? >> yeah. yeah. >> the declaration of independence, the constitution and the bill of rights leave the national archives building to be transported to a secret location. there they will be examined, repaired, and put in the new encasements. the purpose of security, special trucks with an extra sensitive suspension system will make many trips. sometimes carrying some of the documents and sometimes carrying empty packing boxes, decoys. >> there's a lot more to it than that, of course. >> yeah. >> you referred to some of the new techniques that they have. if something fades, do they try to -- what's the language you use -- do they try to cover it over, or try to add ink to the document? >> there are various ways to do that.

they may need to scrape glue away, if there's some issue there. they may need to restore in that kind of a way, as you just suggested. it's a very meticulous, high-tech process done by real expert conservators. it's something they take great pride in their work at the archives. and i think one of the reasons they do, when you saw from that clip, these documents are so many things. they are artifacts for sure. so they're cared for in this very, very delicate way. they are symbols. you know, you go to the rotunda and see these documents under low light, and there's guards, and people -- even when there's lots of children in the rotunda, there's some noise, but i think people try to keep it down. they understand where they are. and the documents are also, i think, daily blueprints of how we run our government, how we make our laws, all of that.

so there are all of those things, you know, kind of in one. and i think that really impacts the people who work on them. >> so today, does the glass touch the document? >> it does not. it does not. if you go there, you will see that it's removed a little bit from the document. there is a space. and as i said, it's really wonderful to go there, and check these documents out. >> so what's the temperature? >> i don't know the exact temperature. i think it's -- it may change from time to time. i know it's low humidity, and a temperature most conducive to keeping these documents dry, et cetera. >> how many people pass -- and if you go to the archives now, and go into the rotunda, how many different documents are there? >> the declaration of independence is there, the constitution is there, the bill of rights is there. the charters of freedom, about a million people go through that

rotunda every year. when you think about it, a stunning amount of people coming to see the documents. again, i think they come to see them mostly because they're symbols. it's difficult to read, particularly the declaration. it's very faded. the constitution less so. because it was never displayed as much. it's four separate leaves. whereas the declaration is one leaf. so i think people mostly come to see these documents as symbols. it's really impressive to go there, i think. >> how much time have you spent there? >> i've been there many times. hours. i've been down here -- i come to washington a lot. i come every year. my wife is the principal of a school and we take 8th graders down here every year. we go there. that's part of our yearly trip. and the kids really enjoy it. so i get to spend some time there. and probably to tell the kids more about these documents than they care to know. but it's great fun.

i think it's well worth the take. >> who wrote the kobs constitution? >> the constitution was written by a number of the delegates. madison does a good deal of the writing. of course, hamilton does a good dealing of the writing. but really, it's put together, and then polished by a committee, if you will. and governor morris does a lot of that polishing. we talked about him doing the preamble earlier of the but he also does a lot of the polishing of the constitution, kind of bringing these concepts together. you know, the different articles. and to sort of hang together as one document. morris does a lot of that as well. >> what do they do about the amendments? i know the bill of rights is there. what about the rest of the amendments? >> so, the amendments -- where are they kept? >> yeah. >> they're at the library of congress. so the documents that are kept, the amendments that are kept, a part of the declaration of -- i'm sorry, the constitution,

library of congress keeps those. i think they eventually did transfer them to the national archives because they are part of the records of the united states. >> you mentioned the guttenberg bible and constitution and declaration of independence and gettysburg address. what else of importance do you consider, i mean, if you start next rank, would you mention? >> yeah, so, the journals of the continental congress, madison's notes on the constitutional convention, the president's papers, washington's diaries, all of these get transferred out of the library of congress at this time. samuel morris' first telegraph, what hath god wrought gets moved out at that time. the queen's condolence message for the death of abraham

lincoln. and the layout of washington, d.c. is one of the documents that gets moved out. >> as we look back on it, who would you say, in order of importance, the persons who really made a big difference? we talked about some of them earlier. but who would you say, if it hadn't been for that person, we wouldn't have these documents today in the archives? >> during the world war ii move, i think if you want to use that, i think it's mcleash. he takes his direction from roosevelt. roosevelt's very concerned about the documents. but it's really mcleash who is the driving force on making sure these documents -- painstakingly making sure these documents are organized properly, making sure they're packed properly, working closely with the department of treasury and the secret service which is part of treasury. i think it's really morgan -- or really mcleash that drives that effort during world war ii. and makes sure these documents

are safe. and i think his assistant verner clap, who's one of his key executives, again, goes out of his way on these trips to virginia, ohio, north carolina, et cetera, looking for these different repository possible locations. so it's the library of congress staff, i think, that really works hard to make this happen. >> you said there were some 60 places that documents were sent to? >> that were looked at. that were examined as possible places. and they really only come down originally to three, university of virginia, washington lee, and vmi. then they realized they need more space, and they add denison, university, in ohio. and then they realize in vmi, there's really too much dampness. so they move all those documents to denison. so you have three locations in the end. university of virginia in charlottesville, washington and denison. >> what's interesting is washington and lee and vmi sit

right next to each other. >> yes, in lexington. they thought even though it was somewhat inland, even though it was kind of protected by mountains, it would be easy to get to. the library of congress staffers went to these locations relatively frequently to examine the documents. so they wanted a place they could get to. they didn't want them brought out to the desert in utah where they couldn't examine them. so they needed to find a place that satisfied all the requirements, but then was easily accessible. >> in the back of your book, you have a huge bibliographic essay. what is it? >> so, i found my readers -- all my books have bibly lly oh gra essays, i like to show how i use them. i try to organize the bibly oh graphic essay according to topics, according to chronology, whatever seems to work best at the time and to let my readers know how i use the sources that i use. i rest all of my books on very

strong primary source documents. so i break it up by primary sources and then secondary sources, you know, articles and books that follow. that's how i try to organize it. >> how long does it take you to put this together? it's very complicated. i see it starts on page 357, and it goes to about -- well, it goes to 395. >> yeah. as i say to anyone who reads the book, i expect you to read the entire bibliographic essay. no, it takes a long time to go through it, because as i said, when you write narrative history, which is what i write, it's very important, i think, to make sure you let your readers know what souss you've used. and primary sources i consider indispensable to any history. i've tried to use as many primary sources as possible. it allows me to kind of go back in the time period. so, yeah, it takes me, to kind of put that bibliographic essay

together right, it takes a couple of months to do it properly, i would say. >> who was caesar rodney? >> one of my favorite people of the whole story, he was a delegate from delaware who is at the continental congress in 1776. and has to get called home because he wants to help quell a torrey uprising in the dover area. he's a member of the militia. he gets a request from one of his fellow delegates from delaware that he's needed back in philadelphia to cast a vote in favor of independence. he was in favor of independence. the vote was going to happen on july 2nd. and so a messenger is dispatched to him on july 1st to get to philadelphia as quickly as you can. and he rides through the night, midnight ride of his own, probably about a year after paul revere's, rides through

thunderstorm, rides through lightning storms, he's got terrible asthma, he's got facial cancer at the time and makes really this heroic ride, and arrives at the pennsylvania state house which is what independence hall was called at the time, on the morning of july 2nd. still in his spurs and drenched in mud, to cast a vote in favor of independence from the state of delaware. >> first state? >> first state to adopt the constitution, but a needed state at the time. there were only nine states that voted in favor. delaware was split. rodney was going to break that split. south carolina was -- tended to be opposed at that time. pennsylvania tended to be opposed at the time. new york had not gotten the okay from its legislature to vote in favor. >> why was rhode island -- they didn't come to the constitutional convention, and they didn't sign it, and what's the problem through all this? >> i think their problem is a problem a lot of folks had, that

originally, the federal convention was called to amend the articles of confederation. and word got out pretty quickly, madison and some of the virginians wanted to do far, far more than that, that is to create a whole new document. rhode island didn't want any part of that at the time. so that was really part of a controversy when the delegates first meet. >> who was richard henry lee? >> richard henry lee makes probably the most momentous point in history when he puts forth the resolution that the colonies ought to be free and separate from great britain. he's a delegate from virginia. it's a stunning motion. really kind of gives you goose bumps when you hear it. he makes it on june 7th. and the continental congress makes the decision at that point that, you know what, this is so big, this is such an important

resolution, we need the delegates to go back to their states to find out what the people think. and so that's the break between june 7th and really july 1st of 1776, when that motion is taken up. >> who is your favorite founder? >> boy, that's a tough one. of course, everyone says hamilton now with the play and all of that. i think for me it's adams. not only because i'm from the boston area, i think he is the strongest proponent of independence throughout. i think he has a great deal of integrity throughout this whole process. he's not well liked. he is controversial. he is a little bit obnoxious. but he speaks his mind. and i think he's a real truth teller, more than somebody who's interested in his own self-grandizement, if you will.

i think it would be adams as my favorite. >> who do you think you would have liked the least? >> well, that's -- >> or respected the least. >> yeah, i mean, you know, i don't know. there's no one that really comes to mind as far as respecting the least. if you look even at the framers, i think washington, for example, is a remarkable human being. i know it's almost a cliche, so much has been written about him, but when you look at his service, and his virtue throughout, it's really kind of incredible. madison, i think, for sure, is the father, if you will, of the constitution. but i think if you look at it from a purely political point of view, he does do a little bit of a bait and switch. it is originally to amend the articles of confederation. and he very quickly puts together allies to completely rewrite and produce a new constitution. now, in retrospect, i think it's a good thing. but if you were looking at it politically in the moment, you

might say that madison was a little bit political here. >> you say your wife teaches 8th grade. >> she's a principal. we take the 8th grade class. >> the last time you were here she had the 8th grade class talking about the caning and such. what do kids in the 8th grade think of hamilton? >> well, it seems to me as a result of the play, that a lot of them are interested in the music, and a lot of them become interested in hamilton, the man, i would say, as a result of that. and people will say to me, well, you know, does it bother you that it takes a broadway play to get kids interested? and i say, quite the contrary. i think it's great. whatever gets kids interested in history, and gets kids interested in our founding, i think is a wonderful thing. so to me, the play "hamilton," which i have not seen, is fantastic. in terms of teaching kids about history. >> what are you saying -- and this is really two books. you've got the story of the

documents and what's happened to them, and then also the story of the content of the founding and the constitutional convention and all that. here's a question that people talk a lot about today. how did these white men property owners write this constitution and not let women vote at the time, not even let native americans vote at the time, not let black americans vote at the time? what was going on in their minds? how many of them do you think were sincere about where they wanted to head and why didn't they head that way right then? >> it's one of the great paradoxes, particularly the slavery issue, which confound the delegates, both at the continental congress during the declaration of independence, and 1787 during the discussion of the constitution. so jefferson's original draft does contain a paragraph about the slave trade. gets struck because there's this

feeling that there aren't going to be enough votes to approve the declaration of independence, particularly the georgians, south carolinians, maybe even the virginians wouldn't go along with that because slavery was part and parcel of their economies. and even in places like new jersey, certain places in massachusetts, slavery was still part of the discussion. in 1787, there's not a great deal of moral discussion about slavery. most of the discussion takes place as to how are with egoing to count slaves, for the purpose of representation. but there is some discussion about slavery. i think at that point the founders do put an end to the slave trade. and i do think that the founders honestly believe that over the next decade or two, slavery is going to die of its own weight essentially. and again, they make that decision that without the

southern colonies in particular, the southern states in particular, the constitution would not be ratified. so they make the tradeoff to ratify the constitution, and not really deal with the slavery issue, with the hope and the belief that it was going to die. now, that does not happen, and primarily does not happen because of the invention of the cotton gin, eli whitney's cotton gin in 1820-ish at that point. it makes big cotton what it is. at the time, the business that it is. so, of course, we are bedeviled with the whole slavery issue for decades, right up until the civil war. >> so why women? why no women could vote? >> i think it's an issue. and abigail adams even says to john, remember the ladies. you know, as you go through this. and again, it's part of, at the time, society, where women certainly were treated as second

class citizens. and i think that that -- the issue of women does not come up very much. either in the discussion of declaration or in the discussion of the constitution. quite frankly, doesn't come up even after the civil war, because we look at the reconstruction amendments. we look at the 13th amendment that allows black men the right to vote. it doesn't come up -- you know, you're a century from that even coming up, the women suffrage movement and those kind of things. abigail adams and dolly madison were very influential during this time period. >> where was it that the king george iii statue was torn down and why? >> in new york. so after the declaration is passed, there's lots of that, that happens. torrey, all kind of torrey shops are destroyed. and once the declaration makes its way through the colonies, there is a great deal of that that goes on. >> as you know, the lenin

statues were torn down in russia and saddam hussein was torn down in iraq. >> yeah. >> is there an equivalent there with king george iii and the way he was treating the colonies? >> yeah, i think there is. i think when you look at jefferson's words, and when you look at the declaration of independence, this notion of self-governance was totally unheard of during this period of time. this was a period of time of monarchs who basically ruled by fiat. and everybody else did just about what they were told. so this notion that this taxation without representation, this issue that the people held the power, and conveyed this power to government, was something completely unique and completely unheard of during this period of time. and i think americans, the colonies at that time grab on to it. >> i know we'll never know the answer to this, but what are the chances from your point of view

that if madison and jefferson and hamilton and george washington and all these people could be here today, they would say, this is what we expected to happen? native americans couldn't vote until 1924. we know about the 13th amendment. and the women voting in the early 1900s. how many of them would say, this is what we wanted to happen and how many would say, whoops? >> i think most of them would be at the same time surprised, but pleased that it happened. >> why, though? where do you get that idea? >> because if you look at some of the writings of these folks and their kind of dedication to these concepts of liberty, if you look at some of the federalist papers even that madison-hamilton pen, and some of the notions of freedom and equality and liberty, i think even if they personally at that point in time couldn't have envisioned it, i think if they came back here today, they would consider it a good thing.

>> but why did they write all that flowery stuff about freedom and all that, and really only the white males that owned property got it? >> i think what we need to look at, and what we need to look back at is to be careful of applying sort of 2016 standards to history. we have segregated army right through world war ii. we're not talking about hamilton and white male property owners. the army doesn't get desegregated until 1948. i think there are periods of history, are we perfect? no, far from it. but we're aspirational. i think that's one thing that these documents teaches us. when we have issues, when we have problems, we had to fight a civil war to deal with one of those problems, for example. but i think we always try our best to get where we need to be.

>> as you know, if you come into the capitol and stand in the rotunda of the capitol, john trumble is all over the place. who is john trumble and what impact did he have on this whole discussion? >> he was commissioned to do the paintings, these paintings right around that period of time, right after the war of 1812 in the midst much the patriotic fervor. he does his classic painting of the signing of the declaration of independence, which is up there. i think really, again, captures people's imaginations at the time of this scene. and so he is, i think, a factor in this. >> the painting of the resigning of his commission, george washington? >> yeah. i think same thing. i gave this as another case where washington, again, you see the virtues of washington. he does it then when he kind of is making the statement, that the civilian government is, you know, is supreme here. and he does it when he's president by deciding not to run for a third term, right?

which is basically he starts that tradition at that time. he could have probably been president for life. but decides not to do that. >> what book is this for you, what number? >> book six. >> book six. which one is your favorite? >> impossible question to answer. brian, i love them all for various reasons. this book was, i think, a real labor of love for me. it's basically not only the history of these documents, but in a way a history of the country. which i think is encapsulated in these documents. >> what's next? >> so, working on something that i prefer not to reveal at this point. it's kind of early, in the early stages, but very, very excited about this next one, too. >> is it history? >> it is, of course, narrative history? >> old or new history? the last 50 years or last 200 years? >> let's say it's prior to the last 50 years. >> what was the hardest part of doing this book? >> i think the braided narrative. when i first submitted the proposal for this book, it was

in braided narrative form, and i had an editor who said, you know what, why don't you try writing this book chronologically 1776 right up to the 1952 transfer of documents. i said, okay, i'll do it. wrote it. submitted it. was pleased with it. my editor called me back and said, um, i think you were right the first time. let's do the braided narrative, do you mind. tore the thing up and did it in that way. >> define the braided -- >> the braided narrative is back and forth into time. 1941 through '45 is kind of the main -- the world war ii piece of this. that's when i go back into 1776, back into 1787, then back into 1814. the reader kind is kept on the 1941 to '45 path but then goes back to learn about the creation of these documents and how they were preserved and rescued prior to that. >> last question. is the constitution, or the declaration of independence your favorite document?

which one? >> yeah, i think the declaration of independence, you say my favorite, i think the declaration of independence is the most important. because it's that second paragraph, i think, upon which the entire constitution rests. the codification of these laws rests on those principles that are articulated in the declaration. the constitution, i think, for a short document, this really short pocket sized document does an amazing amount of things. in terms of the separation of powers, and all of that. in a very brief period of time. so it's a terrific document, i think. but i think the declaration is the preeminent document we have. >> our guest has been stephen puleo, the book is called american treasures. he's also the author of dark tide and the caning. he resides in the boston area. thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you, brian. great.