large role in making it impossible to pass reform legislation this year. i've read newspaper accounts of the very large sums of money being spent in lobbying against the bill. and according to those accounts, it is by far a record, tens of millions of dollars being spent in lobbying activities against the bill, led by the insurance industry. and i must say a lot of the , information about the bill was false. there were substantial, a substantial campaign of misinformation that raised questions in the minds of the american people. and i think the combination of the insurance industry on the outside and majority of the republicans on the inside proved to be too much to overcome. thank you all very much. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

bob dole: i have a written statement which should be available any time, but i listened to the majority leader and i think he announced what , many of us have known for some time. i guess starting back when congressman gephardt and senator mitchell went down to the white house several weeks ago to tell him that their plan was dead, so i don't know what happened then. the democrats didn't have the votes for it. i know that senator mitchell of course blames republicans for everything except for the plane that crashed into the white house, and that may come yet. but in any event, i've said weeks ago that i was prepared to sit down with the leadership, the four leaders, and work out as a bill, and that was rejected. so i don't think it comes to any surprise to anybody in the media or the american people that health care for this year is behind us. it's a matter of time. and there must have been four or five members who had last minute bills that they would like to

work on in those last few days, and there's just not much time to do that, so i don't think that any plan that somebody tries to cobble together at this stage. i think the majority leader realized that, plus we only have about days before adjournment. 10 i think the democrats have been looking at numbers around the country. some are very anxious to get home, and suddenly re-election has surpassed any other priority, which is not which is , certainly understandable. i think there may be some who are certainly disappointed with the status of the health care debate. i think a lot went right in past -- in the past year. i know there's been a lot of hand wringing in the liberal press and the white house -- what went wrong? something went right for a change, that's how democracy works. you go out and tell the american people what's in a product, and they decide whether or not they're going to buy it. and in my state fair two weeks ago it was 86 to 14. 86%, "don't do anything this year." and i think we are fairly reasonable people in the midwest

, and these are ranchers and farmers and working people who came to the state fair. so the american people listened, and they asked us to slow down. now we will have another maybe , another test on november 8, and maybe the american people will give us further guidance in all these elections across the country. i think the main thing the american people are concerned about a bill that calls for more , government control they don't , want it. what they want is a bill that preserves quality choice and jobs and addresses the issues of cost. and i don't think these last minute blame games certainly , don't advance the debate -- course there's not going to be any debate -- and i don't think they will sell with the american people. in fact i think many americans are thankful that republicans and in some cases democrats stood up and asked the tough questions that the administration couldn't answer. the liberal democrats couldn't answer. again, talking about choice and quality, and protection against what could have been an overdose

of government control. so in fact, there was an overwhelming consensus on the part of the american people to put on the brakes, and my view is we saw democracy in action. that's what happened. that's the way it's supposed to work. and all the talk about gridlock and obstructionism and filibusters, it wasn't too long ago we had the 1992 election, and the democrats had a majority. they didn't have to bring up any president didn't have to bring , up president bush's economic stimulus package or any of the nominations that were pending. no one deemed that gridlock. that was just the end of the year, and we couldn't do everything. so my view is that we're prepared to -- as we have been in the past -- i don't think any bill ever had as much support as the dole-packwood plan in the senate. democrats never had votes for their plan, any plan, and whether it's a mainstream plan, or their own plan, the clinton plan or the mitchell plan or any variations. so the debate i think's been

helpful. there's a better understanding. and maybe after the election, we can come back, and certainly it'll be on the top of the agenda, as i said last week on the senate floor. when congress reconvenes, regardless of what the numbers may be in the senate. and i'll be happy to respond to questions. >> senator dole, your own shift in view away from universal coverage, which you described on the floor last week to some degree how much was that , affected by your presidential ambition? bob dole: i keep reading in the new york times, but you don't get it right. i still haven't -- i don't see any problem with everybody having coverage. that's never been a problem for me. i've said that many times, as recently as yesterday in a state called new hampshire. but i think many of us shift. i was for individual mandates. so were other senators on the republican side and the democratic side. but we did what we're supposed to, went out and listened to the american people, and they weren't buying. i think we had four or five votes for individual mandates on the finance committee. so you come back and say, "okay, we can't do that. what else can we do?"

my view is that, you know, i certainly don't object to everybody having coverage. it's what it's going to cost, how you're going to get there, and how many jobs you're going to lose in the process. >> you are saying people don't buy it. the opinion post continues to say 70% and 80% of the american people did want universal coverage, and yet -- bob dole: let's ask the other questions how much are you , willing to pay? if it loses jobs? i mean, it -- my own view is that we never really had, in a lot of the press, a substance that -- it is always process. "is there going to be a filibuster?" "are their mandates going to pass?" those are the only two things i remember that have actually been -- some did a lot of in-depth stories, but most of it's been processed and i think the , american people are more concerned about substance. so we're prepared, as we have been. not this year. it's over. as senator mitchell has just said, i think he's known that for some time, and i think we stayed here a couple of weeks in august knowing that nothing was going to happen.

but we'll see what happens next year. hopefully, there'll be a change in management here, and we'll be able to put together a good package. >> senator dole, did you hear senator packwood say that "we killed health reform. we have to make sure our fingerprints are not on it"? and do you think that's true that the republicans killed -- bob dole: i didn't hear senator packwood. >> what about -- bob dole: he'll be up here in a minute, so you can ask senator packwood. >> is that true? i don't know. i mean -- do you think republicans killed health care? bob dole: no. the american people -- we listen to the american people. they're not enough republicans to kill anything around here. we do the best we can. we're one of the -- you know, we're not protected under the endangered species act, but we're looking to expand that to protect minorities like ours, but my view is the american people, the majority of the american people, democrats, republicans, independents, said, "not this year, and we don't want all this government, we don't want everything else."

and we're not going to be defensive about that. we responded to the american people. now, it's all right for senator mitchell to come up here and blame the republicans, and that ought to be pursued by some in the media, but we responded to the american people. that's what this is all about. so i don't -- i'm not a bit defensive. neither is paul coverdell or bob packwood who'll be here in a , minute. we think we responded to what they want. and what they didn't want was a big, big bureaucracy and global budgets, and mandated alliances, and mandates on small employees. and i think we were fairly successful, including some democrats who joined us. there never was a time in any of this debate when any democrat bill had a majority, let alone 60 votes. they never had, they never had 50 votes for any of these plans. >> senator dole, senator mitchell says that it's without precedent in the senate for there to be filibusters on the procedural question on the conference on a bill already passed in the the senate. do you think he's accurate? and why -- if so, why did you

break this precedent? why this -- bob dole: oh, there's a lot of things. we break precedent every day around here. you know, we don't stand still. this is the -- we're moving ahead. and i assume, if we were in control, we would write a campaign finance bill that helped our party. let's be honest about it. you're surely not going to buy onto that spin the democrats are putting on. they've written a campaign finance bill to help perpetuate democratic control. it doesn't take any rocket scientist to figure that out. and i assume we'd do the same. so we want to wait until next year, and i still think the answer is -- i said in a senate speech months ago on campaign reform -- it's never going to happen if you've got one party in charge, whether it's the republican or democratic party. you're going to have to get a bipartisan -- this is one time where you need a bipartisan commission, and then you work out somewhere where you have to vote it up or down. and i'd be prepared to work on that basis for real reform. but this isn't real reform. it is public financing. >> the senate did vote it up and down. they voted a version of --

bob dole: yeah, and then it got worse, and then they added public financing and a lot of other things the american people aren't prepared to do. >> in your -- in the debate this year, we went from the mandates, and you drifted to the subsidy approach and you had a kind of , scaled-back subsidy -- that is what i want to ask you. we had a good program, but even ours was very expensive. your bill, when it got costed, you backed away from some of your bill -- when you come back next year, do you think there will be -- would you support a substantive approach or at this point are you down to just a sort of insurance market reform approach to health care? bob dole: do you mean down or up? >> well, down. i mean you can play games. you know are clinton is. bob dole: yes. >> do you think that there will be support after the elections for some subsidy approach, or is -- or has this year taught you it is too costly and people won't buy it? bob dole: elections and see what

-- well, let's wait until after the elections and see what happens, plus there are a lot of changes taking -- changes happening on their own with out congress' intervention. but for all those in the media who bought onto the clinton health care i know it's a bitter , defeat, a disappointment for the new york times and other, -- others but you know, you'll , get over it. there will be other issues. >> senator, can i ask you about the lobbying and gift bill is also the compliance bill? have you had a chance to review those? bob dole: not really. >> have a chance to pass them? bob dole: i don't know. i've talked to senator mitchell. i don't know whether he mentioned that, but he's given me a list of things that he'd like to finish this year obviously the appropriations , bills. beyond that, i think the only other major item is gatt. i would think i'm not certain , about superfund because there's a lot of opposition building up to superfund just as there was to the telecommunications, and i think, as democrats look at the polls around the country, many want to go home. some would want to stay here,

feel safer here, but others want to go home, and we're prepared for them to go today. well, we can't go today, but soon. >> senator dole, when you first started talking about the idea of a summit, you said one of the reasons was, a summit was the four -- bob dole: oh, year, that would hardly be a summit with the four of us, but it would be -- >> one of the reasons that you had about that was that four or five members could filibuster and obstruct any significant debate, and since it was the republicans on health care that were doing that at the time, a lot of us figured that was who you were talking about. did you ever feel constrained by your more conservative colleagues from negotiating, from pushing what you studied for a long time? bob dole: i was prepared to go, but senator mitchell said that sounded too monarchical or something like that. i didn't suggest the four of us would go in there without consulting our colleagues and just the four of us put together a little package and go out and -- obviously you'd have to check, he'd have to check, foley would have to check, michel would have to check, but we've done that in the past when the

four leaders have gotten together. it seemed to me we're down to a point then when we can talk about preexisting conditions, some of these things that everybody likes to take care of but that was not even considered and.the democrats >> i'm not really asking about the summit idea, i'm asking about -- and a larger sense, did you feel constrained, as the minority leader, by your more conservative colleagues, who were the ones holding out and threatening filibusters, from actually negotiating? bob dole: it takes 41 to filibuster effectively, so i don't think there are ever that many republicans. >> senator, there was a lot of talk by some of the democrats that members of congress had arranged a health care plan for themselves that was a lot better than what a lot of people had. do you think that most people ought to get the kind of health insurance you get? bob dole: in fact, we provided in our bill that you could buy into the federal plan. >> but that bill is not going anywhere. bob dole: well, we offered it. i mean, it's gone as far as any of the other bills, and we think we'll come back to it next year. >> senator dole, when does all

the partisan bickering end? last -- when the bush administration finished, george mitchell stood in the way of a lot of the things that president bush wanted to do. and now, for whatever reasons, you seem to be standing in the way of some of the things that mitchell would like to get done. president clinton -- when does it end? if you take over next time, then they're going to stand in front of you. when does it ever -- when do you ever -- bob dole: well, that's the way it works. [laughter] bob dole: i mean, i don't know what i'm standing in the way of except coverdell and packwood who are going to take over here in a minute, but -- >> senator dole, for a solid week -- bob dole: i mean, i -- is there something we're standing in the way of? name one. >> campaign reform california , desert. bob dole: well, that's not campaign reform. that's democrat -- >> california desert. bob dole: i voted for cloture on the california desert. >> so why are we going through this 30 hour nonsense? bob dole: we haven't done that yet. >> you've just indicated too that the lobbying reform -- bob dole: i voted for cloture.

>> pardon? >> and you just indicated a moment ago lobbying reform and gift ban. bob dole: well, i just don't know enough to comment on it. >> i think that's -- bob dole: the what? >> the congressional compliance bill also might be blocked. bob dole: well, i don't know anybody that's blocking any of those things. i don't know whether you had a meeting up here and decided what's happening. but you've been sort of ambivalent and equivocating about whether you're going to -- yeah. >> when you first came in here, you said you should listen to voters. indicated strongly that they want lobbying reform. bob dole: i think they have, but i quote senator mitchell on friday what we would try to do is work out an agreement with him, which we do a lot. we have a good relationship. we trust each other. we know we have to bring this session to a close. you don't always get everything you want. but those -- i think that's on the list, both of those things. we just haven't figured out whether we can get a time agreement. because everybody knows it takes just one or two senators now to

block most anything. >> is it on your list? bob dole: yeah, i don't have any objection to either one of those. i mean, i may not totally agree with them, but i'm not going to block either one of those. >> senator dole -- bob dole: particularly the one on compliance, i think we ought to do that. >> -- george mitchell made a big deal that the republicans were the ones who killed health care reform. do you think this is going to have any negative fallout whatsoever in the elections? bob dole: well, i'm reminded of the piece i saw in the washington post last week. it talked about congressional coverage. 62% of the time republicans are on tv, it is negative. 75% of the time democrats are on, it's positive. so you know, we've got a little problem out there -- not what we say but how it's portrayed. and i'm going to read that book, it sounds like that should be a best-seller among republicans. but having said that, my view is that it's not going to sell, it's not going to sell. there was never any effort, even with the mainstream. i don't know there was a whip check. i didn't make any whip check on cloture. i don't think senator mitchell

made a whip check on my side of the aisle. so whether he had 60 votes or not, i don't know. the point is, they couldn't get together. they couldn't come together, they couldn't agree, the mainstream couldn't agree. and a lot of people were running around the last few days here with bills that they can't get an agreement on. so my view is, for all the right reasons, health care didn't make it this year. the right reason being, the american people said slow down, you know, you'll be back next year. let's get it right. we didn't get it right. >> senator dole, i'm still confused. for a solid week, senator coverdell and others were out on the floor saying american people didn't know what was in this bill. it was too big, it was too heavy, nobody knew what was in it. now you're telling us the american people knew exactly what was in it -- bob dole: no, no, i didn't say that. >> and you listened to them -- bob dole: no, no. >> which is it? bob dole: there's two things. if you don't understand -- if you walk into a drugstore and you read the label, and you don't understand the product, you're not going to buy it. so a lot of people didn't understand it, so they voted no, and the people who did understand it thought it was too complicated.

so i think you get two categories. and some people who understood it were for it, but not very many. and even people who might have benefited were afraid of the federal government. so i think senator coverdell and others, who have had the lead role in sort of the daily meetings, understood precisely where they were coming from. yes? >> senator, i want to go back to the issue of subsidies again. next year most of the health providers are pretty convinced there's going to be some crack at deficit reduction and a crack at slowing the growth of medicare and medicaid. clearly people like senator harkin are going to want the savings to go to subsidize insurance for kids or expand health care coverage. there's going to be a pool of money that is either going to go to deficit reduction or expanded coverage. which are you for, or you don't know? bob dole: i think i'll just wait till next year, and then we'll see what senator harkin has in mind. he wanted to do something today . i read some story or tomorrow or , the next day, these last-minute -- you know, as i said, it's a like a four-slice toaster. they're popping up all over the place. everybody's got a last-minute health care plan. >> one of those last-minute

ideas was to give -- make it easier for states to enact their own forms. -- reforms. bob dole: how do you feel about that? bob dole: well, we work closely with the republican governments and the democratic -- well, the governors association, so we're trying to work with the governors to make it easier for them. there are a lot of concerns they had. but let me turn it over to -- i don't know -- did packwood arrive? ♪ announcer 1: "washington journal," live every day with policy issues that impact you. monday morning, sharon mcgowan discusses the role on lgbt workplace dissemination. trinity, they left's assault on life, marriage, and gender. then another author will offer concerns about the tax code. watch "washington journal" live at 7:00 eastern monday morning. join

announcer: american history tv was recently at ford's theater for the 20th annual symposium hosted by the abraham lincoln institute and the ford's theatre society. next, jason silverman, author of "lincoln and the immigrant." he talks about the president's relationship with immigrant groups. this is just under an hour. >> is a great pleasure for me to introduce jason silverman. i first met jason last year in springfield, illinois, when i heard him deliver a sparkling lecture on abraham lincoln and immigrants at the old state capitol. he is the author or editor of 11 books. there,k is for sale out you can go look for it. ellison capers palmer junior professor of history at winthrop university, where he has taught for 30 years.