here. the effort has been remarkable. for being here. [applause] >> before we begin, i want to ignore jim think a former vice president of the united states, dick cheney for coming today. [applause] let me also again, acknowledge gay and david, molly, the entire team of society -- the four arts for hosting this magnificent five-part series. thank you. [applause]

and most importantly, i would like to thank dr. cheney for coming here and sharing your views on the president and mrs. madison. thank you. [applause] ok. we will revisit a couple of issues we discussed, but let's jump right into your writing style. tell us a little bit about how you pick your topics and how you approached the research process. >> well, during the writing of -- i was entranced with the ,otion, as gabe pointed out that for the first 36 years of the republic, the virginians were in charge for 32. and i was interested, not only in how this came about, a good story -- but in the interaction between them, the personal interaction. i won't give away too much, but there are surprises there. oh, and how i write. teacher of freshman english for quite a while, getting my phd. torture these poor

freshman. i made them take note cards. every note card had to have a separate id on it. and then, you organized a note card, and you wrote. well, i don't do any of that. i feel so bad for all those freshman i misled for all those years. [laughter] . start writing i research while i write. it's not the most efficient i don'tpossible, but know what i want to say until it right. i look at what i've written, it helps me more what to know what i wanted to say then and what i want to say next. it's not a very orderly process. as my assistant nicole will tell -- their books everywhere. >> you should see my office. [laughter] things about james madison is that the young man took copious notes during the

constitutional convention. most historians, we know much about the constitution, courtesy of medicine. so among all of the founders, he is one that is easy to study in terms of, there's just a volume of information there. these poured through documents of this young man sitting with a front-row seat to history, did you feel like you got to know him better? i remember feeling like i was sitting there in philadelphia. >> well, it's compelling. i was fascinated with his ailment. and, how it was regarded at the time and how he overcame it. it's hard not to be fascinated with dolly. think of it, i mean madison was the most reserved of the founders. he married the most flamboyant woman. they truly enjoyed one another. there's one story that sticks in mind. that's of dolly -- the most

bizarre. acrossnd james running the t8 -- kiosk in front of montpelier -- they would run the other way and sometimes dolly would carry him on her back. [laughter] madison,eat, little darling little jimmy. one of the founders once wrote -- the quote was they could defeat madison if only it wasn't for dolly. she was quite a flyer cracker. >> there was a senator who worked on -- home to his wife, senator mitchell, in the lead up to the election of 1808, who pointed out what a great advantage madison had over george clinton, because dolly was entertaining every night. >> was there anything about their marriage -- it's truly the odd couple when you look at it in every single way. had -- as theyey

alluded to marriage. anything about the marriage -- that was particularly inspiring or interesting? >> the way it started. in the beginning it was -- a marriage of convenience on dolly's part. he fell head over heels. i think she saw in him someone who would be a good support for her son, someone that would provide that baseline level of sanity we all need in life. she wrote a letter to her sister on the day of her marriage and said, something of the order of, i was married today alaska last. [laughter] but she would not have written that five years later, three years later read it did become a love story. >> there was a strain in their relationship, her son. could you talk about -- pain

turned out to be true to his namesake. >> payne todd. someone said he was the serpent in the garden. just grew up as a completely responsible young man area madison was forever bailing him out of debt, out of prison. they tried everything. they sent him to europe a man who was a very orderly and disciplined man, hoping that payne todd would learn better. he never did. toward the end of madison's life and after he died, payne todd pilfered things in montpelier and sold them to support his various bad habit. it's the reason why someone tells you, i have a letter of james madison, to take them seriously.

the letters, most of them have been gathered beautifully, but some are still out there. i have a friend of the eastern shore of maryland to said to me, i have two letters of james madison's. i looked and by gosh, they are james madison area so yes, payne put them into debt. it's interesting that all of the virginian founders died either in poverty or not very well-off. sawcines that was in large -- >> but madison tried to care for him, tried his best to people patients, provided finances for him because of his great love for dolly, but it wasn't meant to be. abouturprised you most madison and dolly in your research? >> was at the number of ailments madison had? yearsably, he spent five -- you spend five years to 83rd primary documents. we have a view of medicine but

simplistic and monolithic. he was an infinitely more complicated person. what surprised you as you are going through -- .> his dedication, hard work the fight wrote -- for religious freedom. do month alone said he couldn't -- adhesion to this cause, fidelity to this cause. ,or madison, it's easy to train beginning with the prosecution of the baptists in virginia. and as they say, madison politician. he didn't hesitate to use the loyalty of that just in virginia when it came to be time for an election. munroran against them -- was running around saying, madison needed to be replaced.

he was the old school -- munro was the new school. madison started writing letters to the baptist. as they should have -- they who bezed he was the one best for office. >> one of the most important relationships to the founding, you just alluded to it -- madison's relationship with jefferson. it was a complex relationship, political. piggybacking on your comments about madison's political skills -- when jefferson needed something done in congress, he went to madison. when jefferson was in europe, he rote to madison -- >> it's remarkable. it's one of the great stories of a history of the early republic of all american history. -- met whenent madison went to work in virginia.

he was very young, maybe 22. then jefferson became governor. from that time, his wonderful friendship developed. they also lived in the same boarding house, as i mention the connection with kitty. theirn just imagine conversations in that boarding house. i think each of them was probably the brightest person that the other had ever known or whatever no. each of them loved books. they bought books even when they couldn't afford them. they had this fascination with knowledge. think of it. not only are they really bright, but they are well schooled. this mound of knowledge and converse. they were both reserved. but very different otherwise. but jefferson had soaring intellect, you can see it in his

magical prose that raises you up. madison was much more matter of fact. they balanced each other. now if you were to give credit to who most deserves the appreciation for this friendship it would go to madison. jefferson was a difficult friend. at one point, when madison is busy at work getting the constitution ratified -- no easy thing -- jefferson, disappointed , upset that there was no bill of rights on the constitution, started writing letters to people. behind madison's back. he would say, here's what we should do, don't ratify the constitution. let more states withhold ratification until there is a

bill of rights on it. this was a fine thing, but madison is in the war, the conflict to get the constitution ratified. itre was no way to amend until it had been ratified. it had been hard enough to get to the constitutional convention where you had all of these people fighting over so many subjects, but if you started letting different states put different amendments on the constitution, you're just going to end up in a mess. everyone would have different suggestions for what it should be. jefferson didn't understand this. he was writing letters to maryland, virginia, opposing the ratification. madison never said a word. but, he did send jefferson a copy of the federalist. with madison -- it was madison's patients that let that happen.

adams residency, the time of the sedition act, this made it a crime to criticize the government. of the sedition act, madison and jefferson decided that the best way to combat this was to turn to the states. they were up something called the virginia and kentucky resolution. madison wrote virginia, jefferson wrote kentucky. was far more forward leaning then madison. jefferson said, a state had the right to nullify the federal law. you can all see this leading up to the civil war. idea.as jefferson's he even suggested the idea of secession. along the way, areas people held jefferson back, including madison, for making such a bold and damaging statement. but jefferson kept going. , a more moderate,

thoughtful state -- made more thoughtful statements to the virginia assembly, jefferson got a hold of this and changed it. he made it more amenable to his way of thinking. madison found out, got it changed back. word, but not a crappy one to jefferson. he just pointed out to him that these words like nullification and secession were not going to be very helpful if you want to get a whole bunch of states to come together and oppose the sedition act. so i think that madison's patients accounted for a great deal. .> i couldn't agree more of the two, madison was the better politician. i know is a couple of uva grandson here. .ith all due respect >> madison is a virginian as well. >> i would to school in virginia

as well. but madison is a far better politician. on the idea of the bill of was charles pinckney, who initially said, we should promote such rights against the quartering of soldiers, they talked about liberties of the press. we were not ready at the time. jefferson almost unraveled everything. madison comes to the rescue. madison is initially opposed to coming up with a list for the bill of rights. he thought it would undermined it. madison comes on board. not only calling -- the father of the constitution, perhaps of the bill of rights. could you talk about his leadership role in putting together what would be known as the bill of rights question mark >> he just knew the importance in talking to everyone. and making his case convincingly. worriedoint out, he was that if you listed a bill of rights, 10 amendments, about the youts of peoples, x and y,

imply that they didn't have rights to do anything else. >> right. >> you are pushing every other right beside. his genius is the way he phrased the bill of rights. -- thee, -- you know it government shall not abridge the right to free speech, to free allegiance to religion. think about that. the government shall not abridge. that left the implication that there were a whole a lot of other things that the government shouldn't do as well. pick his wordsto carefully. >> you can see the political skill coming out in the fight that ensued that jefferson rolls -- madison is willing to work across the aisle so to speak. probably no better example than the federalist papers, which you alluded to. while jefferson and hamilton both seemed incapable of speaking to know what -- one

another, it is madison who works with hamilton on the federalist papers. could you talk about his great contribution, in terms of the federalist papers and helping to get this ratified -- your point was well taken earlier, how he literally travels to visit the congress. he sits down with people. even though he doesn't have the charisma that -- of someone in washington has -- of washington, he knew the value of working to get the support. >> key and hamilton did cooperate on the federalist papers in an amazing way. writing at breakneck speed -- it seems impossible, i think to most people today. they made the case for the constitution for new yorkers -- madison understood the importance of what they had written and had copies. this was before was up to virginia to ratify the constitution. surefter a while, i'm not madison was any less partisan

than jefferson. --and hamilton josh jefferson and hamilton became grateful. i'm so sorry to tell you this. they even became great foes of washington's. sided with hamilton on almost everything. hamilton's idea was a strong central government. people like madison and jefferson used to call him a narc is, someone who wanted a kingly government that could tell people what to do, keep the whole thing together. so that was the fight. jefferson and madison did not want that. they wanted more power to the states. so that was the fight. in the course of that fight, the first political parties were created. a great -- group as well. one of madison's high points -- some of them and some of his low points -- all occurred at the

same time, the war of 1812. as you alluded briefly to. i wonder if you could expand on that. madison was initially opposed. a couple talks came in on the 1810 election -- replace it -- the clays, calhoun's, pushed him in that direction. admit, it wasld incredible. could you talk about the war president, madison? >> it's interesting. administration, there was a half or with friends. presidents in those days, whether they were military men are not, thought that they should dress up, put on a sword, at thick ok'd on it, which is ribbon that is made to look like a flower. adams did that, madison did that. i find that odd. there are many things that you look back that you find on.

his greatest contribution i think as a wartime president, was not prosecuting people who wildly disagreed with him. theythe new englanders -- even threatened to secede. calm,s leadership, his keep calm and carry on -- he did that. in land battles -- when they were going south. elated at the great naval battles of the war of 1812. >> am so glad you mentioned that. work, used in my own writings, we properly and brightly if a lot of credit to lincoln for his magnanimity. he didn't want to see change. we give a lot of credit to george washington for his magnanimity, not being more aggressive with people opposing his command. i always put madison up there with them in terms of -- new england was close to defeating -- fishermen were outraged, running factions.

medicine let everyone down home win. his handling of that helped this country come together at the end the freedomhree >> of early shoot -- religion issue think ofy both pushed, different our society would be if they let it go the other way, if we let it go unchallenged that the government can't from speaking against the ground. washington, people who supported him, supported this idea that the government was the government. and it does no wrong. ,f you criticize the government you're are trying to divide the people from the government you are guilty of sedition. washington supported the adams

administration doing this. as martin marty said about freedom of religion, the idea to criticize the government, was like a hinge between the ages. much -- so, not so much. >> medicine would be a wartime secretary of state and president with the pirate conflicts. that remains the contentious issue. could you talk about -- he would be going to war again, overseeing this interesting affair. madison was very confident in himself. i think jefferson described it best. he just had confident. he was not only willing to go to war, he encouraged congress to declare war in 1812. madison also had this gift of

leadership. he knew how to change his mind. as a friend of ours said to me you don't keep total consistent with -- consistency throughout your life when these -- situation changes. you change. -- the bestmost example of that, is madison in the constitution. when he left the constitutional convention, he was very disappointed. he did not think they had done all he should. but he sort of sat and thought about it, and decided that the others -- there's nothing better -- then worked on the ratification. he thought when hamilton proposed a national bank, that was the worst thing he ever heard of. but then he supported a national bank during his own administration. think gordon would wrote in his book, revolutionary characters -- one of the checkers was

called, is there a madison problem? mehink he would agree with that, no. change of mind when the circumstances change. that's what madison did. >> one of madison's greatest contributions occurred when he was secretary of state. it's something that jefferson gets all the credit for. he deserves credit madison was one of the negotiators. that's the louisiana purchase. everybody is familiar with it from the jeffersonian perspective. but it was madison who was secretary of state who played a role in this. could you talk about him as secretary of state, his negotiations with this event? of madison, example the founder of the constitution changing his mind a little bit. the offer toade let us have vast territory at a good price, jefferson started worrying this was not cost to show.

there was nothing in the constitution that said the government has the right to acquire territory, by land. some madison took him aside and said, it's ok. [laughter] if he hadn't been there, i don't know if we would've purchased it or not. >> while we are talking about these virginians,, toss a bit about your next book on the virginia dynasty, why you selected the topic. we will buy it when it comes out, but just a little hidden of your direction, focus on this book. >> i'm interested in the fact's were not for men sitting around the table, agreeing amicably on issues. --y thought -- fought like like cats and dogs. newspapers were part of the battle. you can find things in the newspapers of the day -- there is bad is what you find in our newspapers today and political rhetoric that we use today.

-- it was such a remarkable time. the bank of how different it was, and how many ways it is the same. you owe them a great deal. why this extraordinary collection of talent in virginia? is that something you will be looking at? >> many great historians have done this. i follow in their footsteps gladly -- i stand on the shoulder of giants. but it is interesting. all four of the virginia founders were born for a 60 mile radius. education plays a part for some of them, more for madison and jefferson them for washington and monroe. so that's part of it. they also -- jefferson -- particular -- nurtured upcoming

talent. they mentored and brought people along. jefferson brought munro along. that they were together so much -- i think that's wisdom , these clash of ideas long discussions about the constitution and laws. jefferson and madison were fascinated with explorers, by explorers. booklist,k at their they were delighted to learn about the first guide to go into -- people who sailed around the world. that's a purely enlightenment thing. they had this whole environment. that's in which it was -- thought important to explore ideas, as well as countries.

there's one last thing. i haven't quite gotten this together yet. one of your lectures was a gordon would -- talked about how modest a mansion in the united states was, compared to a palace for example. no relationship -- the one is tiny and the other is huge. they were on the periphery of civilization. they weren't at the center, they were on the edges. i think that made the more creative. you don't have this vast layer of tradition over the top of you that you have to fight through. you have a new country, new ideas -- you can bring them to the surface. all oft playing with this. that's the idea. >> can't wait to see it. another set of your books -- it's appropriate that you are here is part of our series as gabe mentioned -- in our -- the

introduction of the initial conversations everyone had was, we all feel that maybe we are not doing a good enough job as a nation teaching children about history. a lot of kids are a historic. i've been a historian for 27 years. though i'm always thrilled to work in history day contest, your series of books on the civic -- education -- history education books for kids, what inspired you to write that? what was the moment you said wow -- was it being in the classroom? >> well that's, that's also inspiring. of thewas chairman national endowment for the humanities, we did survey after survey ship sisters growing up didn't know anything about history. it's interesting. they don't know about history, but they do know about something very important that the older generation does not know about, something really important they

know about technology! how often have i heard people say, i'll get my granddaughter to fix this. when your iphone goes down -- they didn't know but history. perhaps that's a primary purpose. the second purpose, tick was elected vice president. and i wanted to stay out of trouble. [laughter] book that has a deep history about adults, someone is going to be mad. but who could be mad about these books? they are wonderful, i love these books. -- bit us a little about about american patriotic primer, your main argument read by the way come i'd recommend the sports for your grandchildren. out of the about one of them i bought appears for my kids a moment. tell us about america's patriotic -- i worked with a wonderful illustrator, her name is robin glaser. she is -- she was by profession a ballet dancer.

but she became a book illustrator. her drawings are funny, moving, so great. to go through the alphabet, a is for america, the land we love. it is called dish clear for the office -- x was hard. but we got through. redere working on this after 9/11. robin drew this wonderful picture, we used a line from america's beautiful. it was fine alabaster cities shine undimmed by human tears. robin knew this -- drew this wonderful picture of the world trade center towers. it was a book that was inspired with a lot of a motion. >> one of the other books i recommend is, a is for abigail. as someone who's a fan of dolly madison, martha washington,

talk about -- i was pleased to you and your talk with the other women in madison's life. tell us a little bit about a is for abigail. who are some of the other women you chose to put in that and why? >> sojourner truth is in there. we wanted to make a book inclusive. the suffragettes are in their. the women who have achieved in technology are in their treat sally ride is in there. so we try to make the book be women that wasf inclusive as possible. you want little girls and boys who read this and understand that the girls growing up our full potential as the boys are. >> char. one other one you wrote is -- the state -- it is a family

guide is traveling around united states. on that note, do you have a favorite national park or scenic natural area in wyoming? >> you stole my line. [laughter] >> the vice president was looking at me as i started the question. any favorites in the national parks for states to visit? >> how can i not say grand teton, yellowstone national park? such a part of our lives. i've never been to glacier. it tells me that something that should do. see the advertisements were arizona -- and want to go to arches national park. there are many things left to do. >> what about a favorite historic site if that is also included -- is there benefield home, a historic site? some of the folks from on hillier are here, a lovely site.

have obviously visited that, mount vernon. other favorite stores sites that you have? >> this thing going on with rose home is very interesting. if you go to montpelier and monticello, then you've is tomorrow's house, you think, wow, this is modest. i thought it was a most unbelievable how modest it was. well, to archaeological digs, through our deal on -- the theory is that we will and thought was munro's house with a little guest. he and his wife it burned. the record of that is hazy. but it makes sense, his whole theory that the house burned and they have, as i say, excavated large father -- part of the foundation. so that just tells you the past is not totally understood. there's always more to learn.

each one of these homes, montpelier, monticello, mount vernon, they are wonderful for bringing children. >> absolutely. >> summon a friendly and oriented programs. my kids have suffered through me dragging them to all these places. while we were in the green room earlier, i was speaking with the vice president, i know he was a big civil war buff. you share is yes for visiting the revolutionary and civil war, various battlefields? is that something discussed in your book? >> no. [laughter] but, deck has made the list for our children richard. when we first moved to virginia -- those many years ago, they were little. did love the idea of being in the middle of these battlefields. he would get the most every saturday morning and take them to a battlefield.

until one day coming to both revolted and said, no more battlefields. so pardon me, i don't have much geographical sense. it isn't the battlefield -- understand what happened, need to go from north to south. [laughter] >> of all the books you have written to make a mention that have talked about, was the one that was the most difficult, challenging for you mr. mark >> madison, nothing else took me five years. >> because of the sheer scope of trying to capture the genius? >> i like the donnie wahlberg example. hard to see -- >> i've never heard that analogy or so i appreciate it. >> read a book, you see what i mean. donnie wahlberg is five--- she's more than 57 or eight. that's about the size that hamilton and her work. most difficult. back here point, we don't have a whole series of photographs to

look at. you have gilbert stuart, rembrandt peel. every president tried to get his portrait done, because people didn't know what they looked like. these portraits would be made and copied and copied so people would know. but i look at gilbert stuart's, john -- thomas jefferson, metal think it's right. if you make some -- he was a handsome man but it makes them handsomer than he was. i like the portrait of james madison. and washington, what an example. i was so stunned the first time i went to mount vernon and saw the young washington. wasn't the first time i went to mount vernon, but the first time i saw it. we all know about the guy who had no teeth. can you imagine, he had one tooth when he became president -- he lost that in second term. think it was john adams left the

white house with his one tooth. no first of all, the trial -- you see washington -- his agent person -- his method suck and and and swollen. washington complained that one of the portraits made him look swollen. them -- we know washington too well as an old man. the portraits don't often show him enough in his rhyme. >> he was oftentimes in pain because those dentures were so ill fitting. he complained about them chronically. i show my students sometimes, there are paintings of washington where he is bigger than horses and cannons and battlefields. fellow, butas a big if you are to extrapolate, he would be about 14 feet tall from some of the paintings. >> my favorite is the apotheosis of george washington. it was joe ellis, and your

series who said, it was important that we be worshipful of our great men in nearly days of the republic. it helps knit us together. there's no better example of that van washington. his is in the capital -- i can't remember where the apotheosis of washington is. taken is ag religious. washington in a telegraph. that's a sculpture. >> washington tomorrow looking like caesar. >> so they worshipful attitude of people in those early days was remarkable. but it's also important -- you really understand washington better. what happened was he lost that tooth in the second term and no longer read anything to tie is false teeth too. so they were very uncomfortable, made his face swollen. while it gives us the wrong image of him at his peak, it

helps us understand him as a human being. >> sure it does. so madison being the most challenging of the folks cometh the one we found to be particularly -- it's never easy to read a book, but is there one that was the easiest of all the books that you've put together? >> probably my autobiographical one, blue skies no fences. it's a treat to read about growing up in wyoming. having an excuse to get back in touch with linda ladd -- someone i hadn't known in fifth grade. to find out what linda was up to . that was the most fun. >> what is the difficulty in writing about yourself? >> you have to figure out what you don't want to say. [laughter] i.s. that -- we're almost out of time -- along year as a scholar and teacher, political spouse, public figure, what have been some of the great rewards

of distinguished public life, what have been some of the challenges? >> well, when you reach higher levels, the challenge is, you don't have any privacy, you don't have the ability to be spontaneous. if you want to go to the drugstore you have to call a secret service agent. so that's a disadvantage. on the other hand, we were always surrounded by people so nice, i can't say enough good things about the secret service. not only did they do a great job, they were good people. so that's a kind of disadvantage. the advantages, you get to meet remarkable people. died, tick as well, we got to visit with hope john paul. he was truly -- you just felt holiness. he was just amazing. remember person that i just being stunned by his the

person in japan -- just this total xan, beauty, calm. pope john paul was the most amazing. but who were your hero/growing up today? heroes >> wonder woman. [laughter] >> understandably so. last question. what really sparked in you this passion for history? what was it from your early life? english my phd in literature, which is not history. a kind of thought it was at first. i kept going with it, kept going, until i finish my dissertation. then i realized it wasn't history. i don't know, being able to delve into life stories -- delving into the history of this amazing country. i mean, how did we come to be --

that is such a mystery in some ways. such attribute to the people. who founded this country. >> before we break, let me just remind everybody that again next year, gay and david and the team and molly are all hard at work, putting together another program like this next year. let me thank the society again for hosting this wonderful five-part series. and c-span for covering this. not only airing ads, but we put together a curriculum to correspond with this. they are it out apropos to dr. cheney's focus, making it available to schools through c-span's classroom so students can watch this and learn from it. mostly i would like to thank the fight -- dr. cheney for being here. thank you. [applause] >> think you very much. [applause] ofthere are signed copies dr. cheney's books in the lobby. thank you everyone. [applause]

>> visit our website where you can find schedules, museum -- archival films, and more. american history tv at c-span.org/history. >> tonight on q and a comfy comparisons between president donald trump and andrew jackson. our guest mark gina mann's book, andrew jackson, southerner. >> i don't think he represents the positive values that jackson represented. he certainly represents some of the negative values that jackson represented. tell president -- history presentation of front of his own personhood, but nation

in front of his own interest. that's with jackson did for most of his presidency. >> tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's q&a. announcer: recently, american history tv was at the american historical association's annual meeting in denver, colorado. we spoke with professors, authors, and graduate students about their research. this interview is about 20 minutes. bill: we are with chelsea medlock, a history professor at oklahoma state university. one of the more interesting topics we have seen is the use of war animals. how common was it for the u.s. and other military forces to use animals in world war i and world war ii? chelsea: it was really quite common up until right after world war ii going into the korean war. in world war i, you had all types of animals, such as horses, the largest group, followed by pigeons, war dogs, camels, elephants occasionally, depending on the terrain and location, oxen and bull. if you can think of any kind animal, it was probably at least in the war, whether it was a pet or mascot or working animal.