arabia. >> we will discuss something more importantly than an arms sale. should the united states be actively involved with refueling the saudi plains with picking targets, with having advisers on the ground. should we be at war in yemen. >> c-span programs are available on c-span.org. on our home page or searching the video library. >> c-span where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies. and is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. >> up next president trump nominees to be the next chair of economic advisers and deputy secretary of housing and urban

development department recently appeared before the banking committee. such as the community development block grant. this is about 90 minutes. >> this hearing will come to order. this morning we will consider the nominations of kevin hassett and the honorable pamela pate naude. i see friends and family behind you as well and i see my good

friend bob dole, at least, i did a few minutes ago and we welcome him here. and will play an important role in spurring economic student. mr. hassett has had a distinguished career in economics that includes positions in academia, government and policy. a widely consulted expert on economic policy and has contributed countless papers, commentary and testimony. nomination has received bipartisan support. mr. hassett's understanding of tax policy will be an asset to the administration. he has extensive experience with economic modelling. for pro growth policies. key to economic growth is not only robust financial markets

but also economic policies that will enable all americans to unlock their potential. i look forward on hearing from him on how economics can play a role in achieving this goal. ms. patenaude has received unanimous -- to become assistant secretary for community planning and development at hud. in this role, she oversaw all of the community department operations. as a former leader in a local housing agency has on the ground experience. her nomination has been met with bipartisan support as well.

this speaks to her distinguish's reputation and commitment to addressing important. i look forward to working with ms. patenaud. empower local decision making. encourage self sufficiently and address comprehensive finance reform. at this time, i ask unanimous consent to enter into the letters two -- without objection. so ordered. i also ask unanimous consent to enter into the record more than 30 letters showing bipartisan superiority for ms. patenaude.

congratulations on both of you. >> thank you mr. chairman. welcome. thanks for holding this hearing. i look forward to hearing the views on the two witnesses. ms. patenaud comes to us with a long resume of development programs. and report entitled the silent housing crisis. as a part of america's critical compact with its citizen. i look forward to hearing her views particularly since her

past advocacy seems at odds. mr. hassett, i hope his work at the council of economic advisories will development and actually rebuild infrastructure. that is what is needed to strengthen the economy instead. we have seen the administration threaten wall street reform, attempt to take away health insurance from 23 million people. i appreciate my cleolleague fro ohio speaking out on medicaid cuts. the administration's hud budget proposal is a stark illustration to this agenda. 11 million renters as we discussed in my office. over half their income in rent

meaning one thing goes bad in their lives and they are evicted. everything turns upside down. i want you always to remember that number, 11 million renters pay half their income in rent. the president's budget would cut 15% from the hud budget. the budget would eliminate programs like community development block grants and home cut funding for public housing repairs by 70%. to cut their funding in repairs by 70%. to protect children from led poisoning from asthma and other problems. senator portman knows in cities and in my state housing built before senator portman and i

were born, the house, the led c content, the lead exposures. five months ago in this room, dr. carson scoffed at the notion that he would support a 10% cut in the hud budget. he said he understood from his experience how it was far less costly to avoid lead poisoning than to treat it. i did that because of his personal and his public promises on lead let this budget which apparently he is defending and that is one of the things we want to hear from you. his budget undermines all of this. the broken promises don't end here. the president promised on the

campaign trail to revitalize our inner cities. instead the president proposes to cut more existing infrastructure program than the $200 billion he is willing to address. i look forward to hearing from our two witnesses how we tackle. thank you senator brown. now we will turn to senator portman to introduce mr. h mr. hassett. >> thank you for letting me do this. the ranking member, it is a pleasure to introduce kevin hassett, he has you know is being nominated to serve as counsel of economic advisers.

his son's squjaemie and his wif. we have known each other a long time. and i got to know him and respect him and he continued to serve as a policy consultant for the treasury department under the clinton administration. i went onto the house and ways and means committee as i looked to him as we tried to reform the tax code. and again, that is one of his specialties. he has got a lot of respect by economists of both sides of the aisle. his predecessor, has called him an excellent pick. that is from jason furman and been endorsed others.

he served as a senior economists of the federal reserve board of governors. in particular, i want to point out that he is an expert on tax reform. i think this is going to be incredibly important to us and his focus has been how to have a tax code that gets rid of loop holes and simpler tax code. the major beneficiary would be middle class families. and that wages are flat right now and the best thing to do to get wages up is actually to reform the tax code and i think that is important research. the middle class squeeze is something we can address to a number of ways. and one is through tax reform and his work in that area has respect on both sides of the

aisle. he is the right person at the right time. i think the difficult class of tax reform and other things will be each other. thanks very much for giving me the opportunity say a few words about mr. hassett. >> thank you. now senator shaheen? >> thanks you chairman and members of the committee, [ inaudible ] to be president trump's nominee. and what i have to say is probably overkill after your glowing review of her resume, but her experience in housing policy goes back nearly three and a half decades beginning with her work in new hampshire.

that was followed as you pointed out. pam and i first got to know each other when i was governor and she served in a succession of high level positions, the deputy chief of staff and later state director and assistant deputy secretary of hud. and she later -- you know, what impressed me always about pam is that she understands that access to affordable housing and a safe place to call home is the foundation of families and strong communities. and throughout her career she has been engaged in these challenges as a thinker, leader and problem solver. i appreciate her ability to

bring together disparate state leader groups and that she is personally dedicated to the core mission of hud including the challenge of bringing opportunity as you pointed out, senator, brown, to america's most disadvantaged urban communities. i think our nation is fortunate to have someone as pam's high caliber. and i hope members of the committee will agree with me that her experience and expertise make her superbly experienced. >> thank you. before we begin your testimony, i would like to place both of the nominees under oath. please rise and raise your right hand. do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth

and nothing but the truth so help you god? >> i do. >> and do you agree to appear and testify before any dually constituted committee of the snae senate? >> i do. >> thank you. each of you will take a few moments to introduce any member of your family you may wish to introduce. >> thank you very much senator portman for the kind introduction and senator crapo. distinguished members of the committee. i am humbled and honored to be before you. i am also deeply grateful, and have had a chance to get to know many of you. i would also like to begin as you invited me to senator, by introducing my college sweet heart and wife of 31 years.

and next to her are my sons john and james who are sitting behind me. i would like to acknowledge my father john who was a korean war veteran and my mother sylvia and sister julia who are sadly no longer with us. i was raised by two public school teachers in massachusetts. my mother was a kindergarten teacher and my father taught english. and still lives in the same house i was raised in. as i was growing up my pain went through a transition. neighboring turners fall was almost as prosperous housing a paper mill. as we got older, times were changing, plants closed and families started moving away.

it seemed impossible to not look around and see what was happening to my town. why did plants move away or close? why did many of the plants clos good jobs disappear? is there something police makesers can do to restore proermts. economic principles models suggest a answer. but going from things that work in textbook mold models to you will actual police recommendations is a difficult things. the world has many complications not included in the models and that the data often surprise economists, especially those who are too much confidence in the theories. that observation led me over the years to focus on things that can be learned from the data. my dissertation focused in part how wages move over the business cycle. what do the beerds are periods when workers prospers have in mcmahon my he remember keir crass spending how firms respond to policy and how labor and capitol interact. since then my studies have taken

my different directions you who i record makes clear a few things i would like to emphasize by my approach to economics. first, i believe it's a eessential to gather evidence and not just rely on theory. have easterly in the career the empirical lirt and tax aches contained holes often because the country by country data one would need for study would not be available moop nigh co-authors built a large international tax database and making data available. i believe that economic analysis should be traermt and replikable. an example of my kmiltment to the idea is the open source policy center which i cofounded at the northwestern enterprise institute. the ospc has open source computer code that allows anyone to score tax plans evaluate the distributional consequences of that plan and see what the ufrpgs assumptions are that others use scoring their plans. the ospc promises to democratize tax deeblt finally wheel i

respect research even the most theory etic. mywork has helds the proms of improving the lives of others. and improves the lives of those less fortunate. a recently example of that would be my work with the economic innovation group. where i explore the causes and curacao of the striking geographic inequality that we see in the america. we have measured distress and constructed publicly available data sets that shed lights on the communities around the country needing help. there is interactive map petition eig website that helps people explore communities with the dark color red sbanging zreem economic des it one of the reddest shades on the mapts is turner falls the town across the river are from my dad's house where the paper mill closed. the council of economic sbirsz was created to provide the president with economic advise to help policy makers craft solution force problems we face.

throughout history it has done admirable by both democratic and republican dmgss. in 2009 nominee christina romer told that she would do her utmost to protect the integrity a cea and make a center for unby as the he sthiesk analysis. if dpirmt i pledged to you i would do the same and i would enthusiastically and energetically take the helm of the great american institution. thank you. >> thank you mr. hassett. ms. patenaude. >> thank you chairman crapo ranking member brown and distinguished members of the committee. it is a great privilege to appear before you this morning. i am deeply honored by president trump's decision to nominate me as the deputy secretary of the u.s. department of housing and urban development. i also want to thank senator sheeheen for they are thoughtful introduction and a special thanks to a my deer friend

senator bob dole for joining us this morning. mr. chairman, if i may take a moment to introduce my husband and three daughters. my husband of 32 years, chuck, katlyn, they're out of order. meghan and jennifer. and i also want to recognize my niece kristin hews also here with us today. and the many friends sitting behind me showing love and support. housing halls been disclose my heart and part of my family history. my late parities bob and ee tella heuss together created and ran a successful home building business in the new hampshire. there was no escaping talk in my momi about housing. it was no surprise to my parents when i came to share their passion for housing. as a senior at college i experienced our nation's capitol as many college student do as an intern.

i never imagined that that internship at hud headquarters 35 years ago would launch a career that continues to energize, challenge and inspire me. the upon graduation i administered the section 8 rental assistance program to it at the finance authority which observed first hand the transforms transformational impact for improving plier senior citizensing. during my career i've hevd at hud in several leadership roles at assistant deputy secretary for field policy and management i restructured hud's critical field operations and contributed to the development of the five-year strategic plan. as assistant secretary for community planning and development i administered 8 billion in community economic development and affordable housing funds and managed a team of more than 80 oh experienced professionals committed to carrying out the mission. outside of hud my career is

focused on promoting houses policies aligned with the significant and changing needs of the american people. at the urban land institute i established the center for workforce housing to draw attention to the plight of america's most essential workers he is firefighters, police officers, nurses and teachers who are too often priced out of the communities they serve. at the bipartisan policy center, i directed the housing commission under the steadfast leadership of three of your former colleagues, senator george mitchell, senator kit bond and senator mel marntd ez. the commission developed a comprehensive report outlining a new drerks direction for federal housing policy. currently i serve as the president as the j ronaldter willinger foundation where we seek to elevate rental affordable foss a nagsle policy. aen we educate about the silent

housing criesness america. through the initiatives i have dwrefld strong work relations differs enemies of the housing advocates home builders mornl bankers government policy makers and academics. i'm proud to say that bipartisan collaboration has been a hallmark of the initiatives. my career in-housing at the local state and federal levels of government and in the private sector have broadened my view of america's housing policies. this knew neek perspective enables me to understand the factors cribbing to the success of some programs as well as the factors that diminish the well intended impacts of others. as matthew desmond articulated in his pull idser prize winning book evicted we have failed to flf appreciate how deeply house something implicated in the creation of poverty. dr. desmond believes powerful solutions are within our reach. i agree with him. i believe that as a nation we

must recognize that house something not just a commodity but a foundation for kplk mobility and personal growth. if confirmed by the united states senate i pledge to work closely with this committee and, congress and with secretary carson to develop new solutions to address the affordable housing crisis in america and to implement the critical mission of the u.s. department of housing and urban development. i appreciate the committee's thoughtful consideration of my nomination. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much ms. patenaude. and my first question and i mean brief here because i only have five minutes. but i'd like you to each briefly like within 60 seconds to just take a minute to discuss what your top priorities will be as you are dmirmd. mr. hassett. >> senator thank you for the question. if confirmed my first priority would be frankly to recruit a lot of economists because the counsel of economic advisers has a proud tradition of recruiting

folks from university all around the country to provide scientific ob objective advice to the president p unlike a lot of agencies the counsel council of economic advisers turns over a lot. so there are knew will new team coming to town to search their country all the time and that would be the first order of business for me because the staff would go from around 35 to 10 were we not to start rekrauting. the second thing i can say is the very high priority is the increase the transparency of the modelling and the communications that goes on in all of the economic kmuks communications in the administration. i would like to take the work i've done a at the open source policy center and the eig where we maid the interactive maps and bring that transparency to the ea sfl pawning ms. hatsen out. >> mri priorities will be the secretary's priorities but the first thing i'd like to do is hear what the secretary learned during his first 100 days during the listening tour from past

experience i know i need to assess the human capital needs and the operational needs of the department. and i look forward to working with the secret o secretary and dweflgts a steakic plans based on his priorities and those of the administration >> thank you and ms. patenaude i'll stick with you bus i'm going back to both with a priority of mine i'd like to you o to you stum. with regard to ms. patenaude there's been several. there's a bipartisan interest in addressing a number of important issues in the housing space such as streamlining regulatory paermts for smaller ph a's. increasing the role of private capitol in financing affordable housing, and create agnew sustainable housing finance system. and i don't need you to talk about these. i just want to know would you agree to prioritize and work with us as we seek to seat object he is. >> yes mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. >> and mr. hassett my question for you is in the space you just referenced, you have extensive experience with economic growth modelling and evaluating the

economic impacts of policy. you mentioned you'd like to prior advertisetize getting that more transparent out there understood and used. various growth estimates have been discussed recently in the context of tax and budget and other reforms. in your opinion, is 3% growth a reasonable target? and if so, please explain what policies would be needed to reach that goal. >> thank you very much. the 3% growth is something that americans used to be used to. the 3% growth was the rule rather than the exception. but growth comes basically if you want more outputulate ultimately from inputs process and historically we've had a lot of labor force growth, capital stock growth and technical technological innovation that have driven growth up to 3033% all three of the factors have

been disappointing for some sometime that we had the computer revolution in the 90s but that seems to have closed down. capital formation in the late 90s by contributing about 1.2% to growth. right now it's.4 or .5 opinion at labor force growth of course has been disappointing as well. if we want to go from the 2 or so% grown growth we have within to 3% we have to get those three things moving. the things i've researched the most throughout my career is capital -- capital swrechlt o twechlt how it affects workers and how it to to get going. it's absolutely possible to return to a place where you could get 3% growth if we design policies in a way that would encourage capital forges in the united states. >> thank you and i would assume that would include some comprehensive tax reform. is that correct. >> that's correct, senator. and i think this estimate was a little bit high. but there was a survey at the national bureau of economic research a number of years ago where a bunch of economists were

surveyed by the impact of the 1986 tax act. and i believe the mediumen estimate of the economic growth was 1% per year. again if you're thinking about how going from 2 to 3 then tax reform is certainly one of the pools we want to use. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> senator brown? >> thank you mr. chairman. ms. patenaude thank you for being here and your work withter willinger you cited stagnating wanls and the a acute shortage of rental homes affordable annual available to households with the lowest incomes unquote as factors in the rental affordable crisis we see today. in indicates you believe broad economic trends are cribbing to the trends. is that correct. >> naerk. >> thanks you mentioned matthew des monday's observation in his book evict nad quote we have failed to fully appreciate how deeply housing is implicated in the creation of poverty. when he came to see a group of

us in the senate one day, i asked him to meet with a number of senators. when he signed his book he wrote home eyakems life you understanding as you do in our discussion that you i i know you believe families turn upside down in so many whiches if they don't have a stable affordable home. when i quoted him just now we fail to fully appreciate how deeply house something implicated in the creation of poverty. if you believe that to be true hen then the hud budget adopted wouldn't it create additional property. >> senator brown i was not involved in the proposed budgets in any way shape or form. and i -- i very much appreciate and understand the role of congress in formulating the budget and look foorg to working with this committee >> but you're going to be -- lerts just put this -- this gently your knowledge and spernds expertise far exceeds your bosses. i think that's generally believed. you may not want to agree with

that. but you -- he will be listening to you. what will you say to him about -- that these kind of cuts far in excess of what he he said he would support when he was in front of us three or four months ago -- what do you argue with him? what do you say to him. >> i have not had a conversation about the budget with secretary carson. >> my question is what is what will you say to him if zplirmd. >> as a lifelong houser you can count on me i will advocate for programs that work and are effective going forward. >> so does that mean you don't agree with the president's budget cuts. >> no as the president's nominee i support the president's budgets. >> but you will advocate for adequate funding of the programs you know work. >> going -- going forward if i'm confirmed by the united states is not, yes. >> okay. i -- i don't know how you support the president's budgets cuts but support adequate funding for the programs that

work? can you explain to to me. >> to clafrp i did not say the specific amount on what i would advocate for. but i am you know -- certainly there are programs that have been very effective at hud. along with that i would be making -- i can imagine i would be making to recommendations to streamline some of the programs. i'm very hopeful we will come up with new slugs working with your committee and staff to address the changing housing needs in this country. >> okay. thank you i wanted to to give a moment to your partner there. a little over a decade ago there was a debate over whether the economic growth rate assumed by the social security trust teas was too petitions mist income line the chairman crapo's questions you cothoroughed a paper that defended that rate .9% over the more optimistic 3% growth rate we experienced over the previous four decades. i think that's prescient of you part of the reasoning was prudent planning for the future

should place more weight down side rescue. than the upside potential. do you believe a 3% growth rate over the next decade is really warrant snd i heard your comments to the chairman. when the consensus among the fed, the blue chips. >> senator again i don't want to take up too much time. but for sure rmt if we don't change policy we can expect to stay around 2%. i think if you look at the blue chip forecast they don't envision the kind of sweeping tax changes that you know we experienced in a bipartisan fashion in 1986 and that have been proposed in. >> i'm sorry -- sorry to interrupt. the 3% is really contingent on getting real tax form not just a tax cut you know from the years in the bush years that two significant tax cuts went overwhelmingly to the wealth and

there was literalry zero, desert owe zero private sector net job growth in the eight years. you're working o arguing own if with he do real tax reform not just tax cuts but real tax reform can we get close to the assumed 3%. >> i think that's a fair assessment. >> thank you. let me take the last three seconds is sorry mr. chairman i want to talk about lead for a second because of your bosses- dsh the secretary of hud's comments as the nominee -- nominee carson rather than secretary carson. i'm particularly troubled by the proposal on are reduceds fund og fog lead grants and momi and cdbg use for home repairs and other activities. as i mentioned briefly, most of the homes in cleveland, most of the he homes in appalachia most of the homes in cincinnati or youngs town, 50 or 60 years old. the head of the health department said 9% of the homes have tox iks levels of lead.

share your understanding of effects of lead in this country and the hole role we can. >> last year dr. carson proclaimed june healthy homes video month. i did not windchill his entire video but because i was preparing for the hearing. but the video addresses lead. i believe secretary carson is very committed to this issue and will continue to be. the budgets, as i understand process with -- it was level funding until the omnibus. so what -- unthe cr that level of fund something what was requested fl the proposed budget. it was not until after the omnibus was pass nad it actually became a cut. but i think the level of support is significant. >> well, the -- that's a matter of opinion. the original cdbg proposal was

deep cuts. >> thank you very much. senator corker -- be a i do remind my dleegs to hang in there with the five-minute rule. >> yes, sir. >> just want to get ready before my five minutes. so miss -- i haven't started yet. miss patenaude i want to thank you for your willingness to serve. we had a very good meeting in our office and numbers of people i've worked with in-housing speak highly of you and i look forward to your confirmation. mr. hassett, i -- your wonderful family sheer and i know that you're one of the nicest folks i've met that's coming through. i know we we met on the other hand which the time the meeting was over my temperature was about to take my head off as i thought about the fact that think tanks that you've been a part of of course -- but so many think tanks here in the washington community make the

perfect -- the enemy the good, the really can be very destructive -- very destructive as we discussed as we try to move ahead and actually pass legislation that accommodates some common alt on both republican and democratic side. i -- and actually the think tank you've been a part of has played a big role in trying to undernine actually bipartisan efforts that we've put together here on the committee. you and i discussed that fully. as i thought about it i thought about a person coming into the white house that had been quote in an ivory tower if you will sitting over at a think tank writing perfect things in a perfect world. i then began to question whether someone like you would even be good in this position. now let me say this. as my temperature cooled down and i thought a little bit more about your past.

obviously you're qualified for this job. but can you talk with me a little bit about the role that you'll be playing there and hopefully share a little bit of understanding about the fact that we live in a world where we represent 320 million people here and sometimes you know economists sitting over in a think tank that have nothing in the world to consider but perfect don't always help us in a constructive way as we try to move the country ahead. >> thank you, senator. and thank you for your time and in your office. i can tell you that i think a hallmark of my career is that i have never been that person who says that the perfects is the only thing you should do and if you don't do that then you're someone who is a traitor to economics. in fact i think that i've worked collegially with people on all sides and petition pretty much every issue i've ever been involved in tp at the council of

economic advisers in particular the role of the cea is to provide objective advice about what decision makers do. i think that the problem of governing is would haven often one there are a lot of decisions have to be made and made urgent alone we need expert analysis to inform the decision attention. and one who says well in a perfect world with perfect markets here is what you ought to do and if you do anything elks then a mistake sfwla that's it actually not what people say they just say this is the only way for it to occur the perfect is the enemy of the good. they're not saying in a perfect world. they're actually undermining legislative processes have to take into different temper mts and values that are part of democracy. it wasn't just that it was just a straight kbliending of bipartisan efforts here on the committee. >> sir, at the kmern enterprise institute there are many with strong opinions they don't take my advice about what their

opinions should be. but i can assure you that's not the way i would behave. >> who would you report to there. >> the president, zblier yeah so not through gary cohen but directly to the protective placement. >> translator: council of economic advisers was established in 1946 by statute it's quite clear. >> you wrote a book in 1999 about dow 3600 by 2009. i noticed it was mat 10428 self what happened. >> one critic of mine once looked at the book and kwa called it a youthful indiscretions as youthful inskrekss is wasn't such a booed one o bad one. the motivation of the book then was to make sure people understood how to think about equities how important it was if you can be in long run investor they're as with it equities they're good in the long but not the short run. you looking back and fat folks were abundant held were grad they did. >> i know the president said some things about trade. and you're a full blown free

trader. is that correct. >> historically yes. >> and he also mentioned some things about hedge fund taxation you're a low carry rate, dsh carried rate person on hedge funds. i wonder if you might expand a little bit on that. >> i've written one piece of carried interest, sir in the journal tax coats co-authored by allan vye ard a fellow economist. we alanda the law of carried taxation how is it relates to partnership tax dedication one of the main points of the piece was that partnership law is what is applied to carried interest taxation. so to change carried interest taxation would require write agnew special provision. >> thank you for your desire to serve and i like forward to serving with you yeses. >> yeses. >> thank you senator corker. senator warren. >> thank you both for emhere and for your willingness to serve. i want to follow up on senator

brown's questions with a little more detail. appear and i want to focus in on housing. according to a report. short of 1.4 million affordable rental units in this country -- millions of family are now forced to spend more more than half their income -- for

addressing. massachusetts and all across this country. do you support eliminating this funding. >> thank you senator warren? the cdbg program has been around for over 40 years and $150 billion has been dedicated to this program. so. >> so do you support eliminating all funding for the cdbg program. >> during the last two administrations that were there were significant cuts proposed for the cdbg. i believe that was due to the lack of targeting for the program. >> i'm still asking the question. do you support eliminating the cdbg program or not it's a pretty simple question.

>> i support the president's proposed budget. >> so you support eliminating. >> i was not involved in the negotiations. >> i didn't ask whether you were involved. you vent ted like the rest of us i wasn't involved either but i have a stroong opinion about it. do you support support eliminating all of the community development block grants that are used to support housing. >> i certainly would ert support reforms to cdbg. >> do you support the cuts in the president's budgets? this shouldn't somebody an arm wrestling contest it's a yes or no you either support where the president is or you don't. >> well i did. i did support. >> you do support all of the cuts then okay we got it. you know that's- there aring going tube o to be a lot of people hurntd butt that donald trump budget also eliminates $948 million in funding for the home investment partnerships. now home funding helps state build and rehablt housing for low-income families. organizations in massachusetts rely heavily on home funding to

create more liveable, affordable housing units. so ms. patenaude there is a houtsing shortage of more than 7 million affordable housing units in this country. and this proposed cut would make that shortage worse. more people will end up on the street. more women, more children, more than more veterans people with disabilities thats simple do you support elimination of this funding? >> senator, the -- the home program has -- has grown -- the number of resip yints participating jurisdictions over the years and the grants are getting smaller and smaller and more difficult. >> do you propose -- do you support eliminating funding for this program. >> i support the president's propose fwunlt. >> you support eliminating that's going to hurt a lot of people too. more than any other federal agency hud is how american attention help friends and families in need. it's not about handouts. it's about helping people find

decent, safe places to live. so that they can raise their rids o kids. go to school, get a job. the president's hud budget attacks those who need help. it attacks seniors. children, it attacks veterans, people with disability attention. it attacked abused women. attacks people trying to put their lives back together. it is a disgrace and anyone who cares about housing in this country should oppose it. mr. chairman. i yield. >> thank you. and senator rounds. >> thank you, mr. chairman. miss patenaude i'd like to follow up on the chairman you began with ranking member brunn. i'm curious with regard to the president's budget and so forth and the aloccasion of scarce of resources through hud. could you share with us a little bit perhaps how you would

prioritize -- nobody is going to have as much money as we want to have. yet there are important projects out there. i'm certain you've had a chance to look at where priorities would be. can you share with us what you would see as the priorities and how uland use the dollars aloindicated and where you would you would like the focus with regard to use of resources. >> thank you senator rounds. the priority has been to target the most vulnerable populations i would support that. i would support programs that have a proven track record that we can measure the performance. but with that said i'd like to look at reforms of some of the programs that i would certainly support in a future budget. >> so as you take a look at all of the -- one of the area that is we've got concerns with is in native american housing and so forth, particularly in the dakotas where we have large land -- land masses.

large areas. but basically a very scarce population. but we found time and again that we really do lack housing in those areas. and to us we're talking about some of the poorest counties in the united states actually where they're on the reservations and they do rely on assistance, particularly in-housing. would you see it appropriate in the areas where you can evaluate and you see that these are perhaps of the some of the poorest and some of those most in need -- are these the typings of areas you would consider prioritizing with regard to the resources available. >> yes, urn o senator, as i mentioned during the meeting. i limited exposure to indian country and i look forward if i'm visiting pine rim with you so i can get better understanding of needs. i was surprised to learn about the number of barriers to construction with the lands. and i certainly would like to look at ways to work -- you have

more barriers than even normal circumstances for development. so i'd like to look at ways we can represent ehelp reduce the regulatory barriers to development. use of the tax credit program in indian country. i think it would be a high priority. >> okay. last year congress passed the housing opportunity through mob norndization act by snanz votes in both chambers. it was the first substantive housing reform in many decades. ening missouri of the many reforms in the legs helped addressing homeless list reduce the administration there is burdensen on the authorities that hud works with and incentivize that american uses hadded to help and to find work and improve the quality of life for public housing. how do you think congress can continue to build on this progress in the future as you've looked? what other barriers -- what have we actually set thaup we need to toorg at in terms of improving

to make the job of helping individuals more realizable? >> senator, the president has actually requested that each agency review the regulations and i think there are newsroom regulations on the books that are outdated no longer necessary. inl that if we're going to make a difference we have to look at barriers at the level, the state level and the federal level particularly the local level. zoning is all local tp real estate is local and hud needs to help the communities see that there is indeed barriers -- unnecessary barriers sometimes to development. >> cdbg program, community development block grants is an area we all o weave we've relied on country used the them in south dakota. i think governors and local units of government have a real sense of where the resources can be put to use the best.

and in many cases these -- these products can be used to create infrastructure, to improve infrastructure, to upgrade infrastructure, that really makes a huge opportunity for individuals to see an improvement in the quality of life in smaller communities. as well as some of the inner city communities. i'm just curious what your thoughts are about the use of community development block grants support for them and whether or not they've been an effective tool in your view. >> senator you certainly have more experience having been the governor and utilizing cdbgp of course we have success stories with this. i do not believe the amount of money that's available to the grantees is significant enough to make you know infrastructure investments. and i believe the president's infrastructure bill is a better place to address infrastructure, water and sewer than through the cdbg. >> i most certainly think

additional resources would be welcome. and we we start talking about investment in infrastructure. i think the fact we could look at areas in which it would improve housing that improving infrastructure to promote house something a good thing. i'm glad to hear you think there may not be the not enough resources into that as hell to make a difference because we'd like to talk to you about increasing that as well thank you chairman. >> thank you. senator donnelly thank you mr. chairman and thank you both for being here. >> mr. patenaude during your recent visit we cries the east chicago and indian. many families were up ended and ut put at risk due to lead and arsonic in the soil. hud has helped most reents find housing. local officials are pursuing emergency hud funding for the safety and security and the ultimate demolition of a

complex. can i i have your commitment if girmd you'll advocate for the resources needed to by hud including emergency funding to assist the residents and local officials in getting the situation taken care of. >> yes, senator donnelly you have my commitment. and i believe that secretary carson is committed to this issue as well. >> i think we're working right now with his staff to find an compact date for him to come to east chicago so he can witness it first hand. when i was in the house of representatives i served in the house veteran's affairs committee and far too are too many veterans as we know that serve our country find thepz without a home or place to put heir head down at night on a pillow. we need to continue efforts to address this problem. that includes the veterans' affairs supportive housing program. from hud and vap i believe to see the reents hud budget proposal didn't include any additional funding more new hud

vouchers pan a broader based rental assistance program is set for a funding cut. how can we help end veteran homelessness where we're cutting the program intended to help them. >> senator dental donnelly in preparation for the hearing i moet with a career staff and met with the director of the homeless programs at hud. and during that briefing, the staff informed me that the aloccasion of vouchers they currently have were sufficient to address the veterans needs. and i found that to be somewhat surprising i asked again. and then i did some research. obviously there is g going to be difference of opinions depending on who you talk to. but i truss that the career staff running the homeless programs administering the homeless programs have the data to make an informed decision. soy accept their recommendations that the current allocation is sufficient. >> we'd love to see all that

data because you know the -- the concern, the thought, the heart break of one veteran who doesn't have place to go home to or is in a facility that is no where near what she should be able expect in terms of living conditions is something that we owe to every single veteran. how do you plan to utilize hud resources to help house or homeless veterans? >> the allocation of the vouchers is based on a formula for the -- for veterans for the vass program. process i'm confirmed i would like to look into how we can reallocate process to get to the veteran we're not reaching is is so that we can get the assistance to the venerates. >> communities such such as

georgiay. indiana have benefit four-door blight elimination funding but there is still big needs. the population declines have led to a playing of abandoned and ekt neglected buildingulate aring in increased crime and distressed sections. the main funding source for gary to battle housing blight in other city is it the community development block grant, the cdbg but the president mts bungt eliminates this program. how with we help combat the blight if the cdbg is eliminated >> senator there are other funding streams that can be used for demolition. i think the tax credit program when you're looking at perhaps you know new construction or preservation of affordable housing is another funding stream that l at a could be used >> we'd like to work together with you because i think it -- the elimination of cdbg makes this much more difficult. makes it much, much more

challenging. and in is not a situation where there is not need. you will you have to do is walk around the streets and around town. and actually you can just drive by on the highway and see it right from there some of the same houses that have been abandoned for a long time. mr. hassett i didn't want you thinking i was trying to ignore you. i wanted to ask you about the desire to see financial deregulation and the concerns i have about all of that. i was serving on the financial services committee during -- and i have to answer that quick -- or ask this quick during the most difficult and challenging times we had in' 908 ob 09, oh 10. when we see the.com bubble occur and we collateralized debt

obligations and similar things i'd love to hear from you do you see in bubble on the horizontal that should concern policy makers? and what is your bigds concern? i always try after that experience to dsh to look at worst says case scenarios so it never happens again because it dwod destroyed my state in terms of employment and other areas. what do you as the biggest concern right now. >> in financial regulation, senator it's not my immediate area of expertise. but you know a study. >> we have written books about the study. >> not on regulation. financial markets are very complex thp they're what kmss called incomplete which means they at tight times act in incredibly bee if you had willing way. anyone who saw what happens to a bank understands the importance of the financial regulation. it's important that regulations evolved. >> if i had you did one thing

though keep an eye on or worry about right now what would be it. >> i think. >> short answer. >> sorry about that, sir. >> we've got to a recovery that is very long in the tooth. recovery is often of old age it's something we need to to be attentive to and think about policies that we can adopt that woe would extend the recovery. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you. senator scott. >> thank you both of you for being here this morning and good to see you miss patenaude thank you for being -- thank you for come by the office and having a good conversation about the direction the hud, certainly as wove had a lot of questions about the president's budget. i think it's pornt to note that while we in congress won't have the opportunity to negotiate and wrestle the the with the outcome of the budget requires and priorities your responsibility will be to take whatever is given to the administration to the department and do as much good as possible.

speaking of as much good as possible we talked a little bit about the importance of treating the whole person as a part of the hud approach. myself -- i will be joining senators blount and reed in introducing the family self-stain ability acts. the three cutting redundant programs and expanding the scope of the sf program to provide more residents access to job training are more help in on gaining ged. lower costs more self-sustainability. i think that's what we call a win within. what would be your approach to treating the whole person at hud. >> certainly pick private partnerships with be a critical component. the communities that have the resources are certainly better positioned to be able to help. but i believe that the private sector as well as local government can play an i normz

role in helping to facilitate programs whether it's after school programs, or the centers shall it dsh the vision centers that secretary carson has talked about during listening tours. i really do believe we need to look to the private sector to help rebuild some of the communities. >> thank you very much. i look forward to your confirmation. . mr. hassett i want to thank you for your work in the aei. i certainly appreciate your commitment to the economy and certainly the way you have been able to paint the picture of a long-tooth recovery. interesting. you have also said while certain areas of the country are doing remarkably well. the recovery crone recovery has been profoundly uneven with large swaths of the country facing long term unemployment and historically low levels of new investment. can you elaborate on the social and economic cost of this uneven economic recovery and also what could we do to bring more

resources into distressed communities? >> thank you, senator. i think that one of the things that economists have elearned in the last decade of research that was really startling to me how extreme it was was that there are so many people that if they lose a job and don't get a job back in a little while. they start to despair and have personal problems. they often it can happen turn into a spiral and thaks them to a bad place. we no he there are pockets of the country where because of the mill closed like in my hometown that there are a number of people that end up having substance abuse and sewn oh noble prize iening economist. angus stevens wrote a moving piece on this. i know when i give economic talks around the country if you ask americans about the problem they recognize it. and something that i've noticed is that everyone wants to do something about it. everybody does. but they don't know what to do

about it especially the concentrated geographic inequality what we need to do is think of whiches not only with policies but individual i individual that we can help help people make a difference because i know americans want to. >> yeses i know there are two individuals who have been working on this my myself and cory booker being those two individuals we have a the legislation called the investing in opportunity act which seeks to defer the capital gains tax up to seven years if folks are willing to reinvest the kpabl gains flew the distressed communities using the new market tax credit designation i'd love to you for you tooik at the legislation and km back with thoughts on how we might have success in impacting long-term poverty and unemployment in those distressed communities. >> thank you, if confirmed i would look forward to working with you on that. >> final question mr. hassett qb i guess according to the for example i have 2 minutes 38 seconds left in this conversation. i thought it was funny. you're next. so the question i have is on the

whole notion of the workforce participation rate as you just described the impact of long-term unemployment makes it very difficult to return to the workforce since our workforce participation rate has been clking the last eight or nine years. i think about the kissimmee to come, the gig kmg the shared kissimmee or the technology economy tp it seems like workforce investment is going to be a very important part of how to navigate the future challenges that will displays millions of workers in a way that we have not seen in the past. how do you factor that into the goal that we have of growing our economy? >> thank you, senator. it's really of an urgent goal for us to address the problem that the share of our population working is something like 27 out of the 35 oecd countries we need to to help people get back to work. the sharing economy can be part that have but also presents a number of challenges.

>> thank you mr. >> thank you become senator cortez masto. >> thank you mr. chairman ranking member and thank you both of you for the time you spent with me in my office talking about the issues that obviously are important to so many of us, particularly in nevada as well. and it's nice to see your family here. welcome. and i appreciate your commitment to public service. dr. hassett let me start with you. we had this conversation and let me follow up with this. in 2013 you said in a written research piece, quote with lack lurt gdp growth threatening to become the new normal allowing to more immigrants to enter for the sake of employment is one of the if you policy that is might restore the old normal. if the utah u.s. doubled total immigration and priorize bringing in new worker it can average more than 5 a percentages point a year to expected gdp growth close cloet and despite the clear evidence

indicating you are correct here we are in 130u7 l 2017 with the administration pursuing the opposite policies in fact the president's policy of mass deportation is sparking panic and fear in many latino communities causing consumer spending to fall by double digits. this is threaten the the communities confidence in the kpee just as it was starting to be restored after the financial crisis by -- by the way a financial crisis that was hardest hit in nevada. so the question i have now is what you said in 2013 is still true about economic growth. >> i think there are a lot of policy angles on immigration mime not a border security expert but economists are very good at mapping inputs and outputs if we have more input of labor we will get more output moop my afternoons are will irish immigrants that he weren't allowed in the ert country because they had a computer

degree. i are you presume process i think that immigrants in this country have been an important source of growth. entrepreneurship is flailing right now in our economy. but infantries o immigrants are about twice as likely to be entrepreneurs. and so i think that any any immigration policy any comprehensive immigration policy would have to recognize all the policy challenges and the simple economics of inputs and outputs. >> what you said in 2013 still holds through. >> i don't know if i advocate specifically a number of exactly how much immigrates should go up or anything like that it's certainly not the role of the cdbg but if there were more workers there with we would have more output. >> thank you i appreciate that in the past you characterized wahl street reform the worse piece of legislation. that's a new law that needs to be repealed as soon as possible. is it still your view that wahl street reform should be repealed. >> senator i would have to look back at what i was -- i don't

recall i'd have to lack back what i was talking about and get back to you on that. it would take more than to review what it was i was talking about and why i was so adamant i'm not usually so strident i would have to review it. >> let me just say this. because the -- and i just said came out of the worst financial crisis we have seen since the great impression gregs if we have we are making progress we can't ee vase rate the rules we put in place after the collapse. i hope you'd consider that taking that into consideration when you're looking at this. thank you. miss patenaude thank you again for the conversation. let me say this. the i am absolutely concerned about the conversation we just had about eliminating the cdb the g and which is proposed in the president's budget. as somebody who worked at the local level in local government and at the state level in the state of nevada i know that that money is crucial toway what we do in nevada when it comes to services in our rural kmunlts likelien county, transportation

for seniors in nye county and food pantly in clark count as well as meals on wheels and so many other important services. so let me -- let me ask you this. because i know we had this conversation. i heard what you said. you support the president's budget which concerns me because he eliminates the cdbg which is about 20 million coming into the state of nevada 37 but let me give you an opportunity because you talked about reform. with you eliminate it or reform it? >> thank you, senator appear and i appreciate the time that we spent together i learned a great deal about your state on the challenges you face there. as i mentioned earlier as the president's nominee i support the president's budget. going forward as a lifelong houser i would certainly be advocating for programs with proven track records. when i mentioned reform, cdbg is certainly a program that we've had a very difficult time measuring the performance and the outcomes. and i do believe that the

allocation -- the amounts aloindicated are not enough to make a significant impact. obviously there are many exceptions to what i'm saying. but over the years under both democrat and republican administrations, there have been cuts to the cdbg pragmatics. >> and i appreciate that and in our conversation you mentioned how you have strengthened cdbg transparency and accountable during your previa previous ten you're mp why not build on the previous work instead of eliminating the program. and that's the concern i have with the discussion today. instead my time is up. there is others that i will submit for the record. and i appreciate you being here today. thank you. >> thank you, senator tillis. >> thank you mr. chairman. thank you both for being here and congratulations on your nominations. mr. hassett, i'll start with you. i want to go back briefly to the discuss about immigration.

the point of your report had to do with legal -- with i would assume legal immigration, guest worker programs at one end of the program to age two and b at other end of the prum because they create an economic multiplier and some would argue they create american jobs as a result of that reliable, predictable and that the guest worker program adds to the country was the that the the result of your analysis. >> yeses. >> i have to tell you i'm looking forward to supporting your nomination but now it's with a little asterisk as i read your report as deflateth. i'm sure the for example in new england love you. but i thought it was remarkable. it's going to have to make me go back and changes my smack talk but i'm not using the hearing here to drill into that. i want to talk about a report --

you're well published and very impressive listles writings one i wanted to spend a mint or two on is the spending taxes and tern sternty a road map to 4% gdp in your current role how would you cut through the noise we have right now and dsh didn't didn't and emphasize what we think we have to do to build the momentum to actually get to a sustainable 4% g gdp growth. >> thank you, senator. i think it's essential if we are were to move forward and making make the policy sakic we need together mier growth we need to build conhe is us that drawsen empirical evidence and representicable. >> but on tax pals and regulatory policies what are the fundamentals wlar the top line issues that people can understand that do not necessarily have your expertise. >> we as congress members should focus on. >> thaunk for referencing the specific article that there are a number of chals one is tax policy.

one is regulation to make sure that they pass cost benefit tests. another is the look' at the long run budget balance and to help have earn isty about what the future holds .because we haven't fll funded the pz promises we made if you look back at each of knows the country needs to get the act tooth have have experienced surges in growth. i think there's he every reason to expect that could be an opportunity for the zbluns i agree. miss patenaude, i want to give you an opportunity to talk -- cdbg is something anybody working in state government knows about. knows the impact it can have. but i know that hud has 100 or more programs and subprograms. some are working others not working. when dr. carson and i met before his confirmation i asked him if he was going to focus on people who would come in rationalize the programs with the goal of -- do you believe even within the president's budget if he zeros out cdbg do you think that the

administration simply wants to turn their back on the 11 million household that spend 50% of the income on rent and utilities or do you think they're trying to come up with a more efficient way td it to produce more resources for people that need it. >> senator till us thank you for that question. i absolutely believe that the administration is not abandoning the population that you referred to. but that we need to be more creative. we need to to harness the power of the private sector, work with local communities to help reduce the barriers, the cost of building has become prohibitive in so many places in this country and it can contribute regulatory bear yeses contribute to up to 30 la 5% of the cost of the unit more a home. there is certainly an opportunity there. as far as the hud programs i just wanted to and on cdbg we tried to -- we proposed formula he reform back in 2005. and we were not successful with

the reforms at that time. >> yeah wab i think that if we're going to get to a point where we're producing more resources for people who dpritly need it we have to be open to a different way of addressing the need. and i think that we have a lot of duplication. we have a lot of infishesty and it's at the expense -- and cdbg is very important to me right now because we were successful getting $334 million through the d are cdbg through for hurricane matthew relief. it's a vehicle i'm using today. but if you can give me a more effective more efficient vehicle giving me more productivity for the dollars we're lgbting to the housing for housings disaster relief that's we need in hud. we need to revisit it make it leaner get it to a point with to where the dollars going to the programs are ultimately affecting lives not funding programs. thank you i'll look forward to you a you all aets girmgs.

>> thank you. >> thank you senator reed. >> well thank you mr. chairman. thank you to the witnesses. and first, dr. hassett and i had the opportunity to collaborate together in a work share first,d the opportunity to collaborate together on a workship program, i'm extraordinarily impressed with not only his knowledge but his thoughtfulness and his analytical skills. we don't always agree but we do agree on work share. in that vein, dr. hassett, i would hope in your new role that you would continue to promote this as an option in every state. i know with your help we've expanded it to 19 or 20 states. could you comment on this as an appropriate way to deal with it? >> thank you, senator. and in fact i commend the senator for his leadership on this issue. if there's now an empirical literature evaluating your efforts that says that rhode island outperformed a lot of other states because you not only helped states change their

unemployment insurance to help it serve workers better, but you made sure that the people of rhode island knew they could take advantage of this federal program. and i know that now there's hard peer-reviewed evidence that that was successful. i think that absolutely, that if unemployment insurance reform were to be on the agenda again, that there's now a large body of economic evidence that would support extending efforts in that direction. >> thank you very much. >> miss patenaude, thank you again. for your service in the previous administration, also your efforts. i just -- one of the issues that came up when secretary carson was -- i asked him to kind of work with me and others to maintain the u.s. interagency council on homelessness. yet i see in the budget it's been zeroed out, essentially. senator collins and i have

legislation to restore it. interesting enough, you served on the council from 2005 to 2007. will you support our efforts to restore it? and if not, what's the option to coordinate all these different programs? >> senator reed, thank you very much. the interagency council on homelessness was certainly unique at the time. we did not on a regular basis collaborate with other federal agencies. as i mentioned, i had never been in the department of transportation or the department of health and human services. the only interaction i had, as well as va, was during these meetings at the interagency council. i think the interagency council perhaps has outlived its time, because now collaboration is expected, it's part of the performance management agenda. and i would like to take a look

at how the interagency council is working right now. after our meeting i did go online and certainly it's a source of a lot of data. but that perhaps is duplicating efforts at hud. so if i'm confirmed it's something that i'd really like to look into and give more consideration to the council before i can make a definitive decision on that. >> well, i wish you -- again, i'm -- our legislation, senator collins and i, would extend or eliminate the sunset date in the council so it will give it sort of a long-term existence. and i would very much like you to look at it and get back to us. i can recall, again, serving as a ranking democrat on the appropriations committee for hud, having a hearing with senator collins. and we asked the ig what was the number one concern? and his response was cyber security.

and in your role you're sort of the chief sort of administrative officer. can you discuss what steps you intend to take with respect to cyber security? >> thank you, senator. after our meeting, i actually scheduled a meeting with the office of the chief information officer. and this is an area that i have limited expertise in and i think that would -- i was amazed at how far hud has come. and i realize i was talking to the gentleman that is in charge of this. he's the deputy ciao. and it appeared from the conversation that we had that hud is actually in much better shape than perhaps the inspector general has portrayed in the report to congress. so i was encouraged by that meeting. it certainly was an our long. i would need several hours with the ciao and hopefully we will have a ciao on board --

nominated a. ciao. it's an area i certainly will spend a lot of time researching and trying to understand the needs of hud. but it was a very encouraging conversation. >> and just finally, very quickly, i am concerned about the cuts to cbdg. that's a refrain you've heard i think from many people. and it's a worthy endeavor to look for more efficient model, but in the interim, cutting a model that appears to work very well, i don't -- i have not heard a lot of complaints, in fact, i've heard lots of acclaim. particularly by local leaders. mayors, governors. about how effective it is. because basically it provides resources for local initiatives. and i think that's something that you should be considering. and one other point too, and just clarify this, that in a response to how you're going to

make this more efficient so these uses, the suggestion was the local regulatory barriers? >> that's to new construction and preservation. local zoning is certainly contributing to the lack of supply in this country. and i feel that that's an area that we really need to address. >> so let me be clear. the trump administration is going to intervene in local zoning to make it more efficient and effective to develop affordable housing? >> no, senator. i don't think that hud or the federal government should be -- have the zoning powers. but to be able to encourage local communities. when secretary kemp was at the helm of hud, he led a very comprehensive effort, not in my backyard. which identifies regulatory barriers that exist at every level of government. but the purpose of this was to be able to share best practices.

during the bush administration we had an effort to work with mayors. so i think there are ways to incentivize. but certainly not to dictate to local decisionmakers, but i think there is a lack of education and oftentimes -- >> so there's money in the budget to incentivize changes to local zoning, to encourage more affordable housing? >> no, senator. i do not see anything in the budget to do that. we had the affordable housing communities initiative, though, that was run through the office of community planning and development. and it's certainly an area, if i'm confirmed, i would like to share the result of that program and the efforts to work with the secretary. >> all right. i appreciate very much, and i'm -- you've been very kind. so i will at this point just thank you for your very kind comments. thank you. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you, senator. and that concludes the questioning. before i give a couple of final

announcements i want to thank each of you for coming and appearing here today and participating in the hearing. thank you for your service and your willingness to give more service to the country. for senators, all follow-on questions need to be submitted by thursday. for our witnesses, responses to those questions are due by monday morning. so please respond quickly to the questions that you may get. with that, the hearing is adjourned.

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in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies. and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. earlier today the u.s. supreme court unanimously struck down a north carolina law banning registered sex offenders from using social media sites like facebook and twitter. the high court ruled that the law violates first amendment free speech rights. we'll now show you the organ argument from that case which took place in february. it's about an hour. >> you'll hear argument first this morning in case 15-1194, packingham versus north carolina. mr. goldberg. >> mr. chief justice, may it please the court, there are three principal features of north carolina's law that make it a stark abridgement of the freedom of speech. first, section 2, 2.