landmark cases returns live next february on c-span. join us to hear more stories of the people who sparked groundbreaking cases and the justice and lawyers who were key to supreme court's review. next, rabbi david dalin. historian and rabbi is the author and coauthor of 11 books.

in 1787 is on display. every day of the week, thousands of people come to view it. many of them bend down to economic the parchment, some trying to read the 18th century script. the copseitution is the foundation of our government and the standard to which the supreme court of the united states looks when it decides to cases that come before it. the many supreme court case files both appellate and original jurisdiction are preserved here at the national archives. as our opinions, docket books, minutes, attorney roles with our earliest records starting in 1790. we also have the audio recordings of the supreme court and digitized available online. we're working on a project to prepare all of these digital recordings for our online catalog and hope to have them available by september of this year. since its founding in 1934, the

national archives has also hosted supreme court justices in person as well as in its records. and some of the justices we will discuss tonight have had close connections with this agency. in the 1950s, justice felix frankfurter served on the board of the national historic records and national pubication. in the 1960s justice arthur goldberg served on the archivist advisory council. starting in 2012, the national archives launched add series of conversations with the supreme court justices of the united states, including associate justices stephen breyer, clarence thomas and samuel aleto. yale law professor and constitutional scholar leads the discussion related to the

constitution and their impact of the american people. and those are available on youtube or ustream. now let's get to tonight's program. so we can learn more about the supreme court justices. please welcome to the podium russell smith, president of the jewish historical society of greater washington. [ applause ] >> thank you. good evening, everyone. and welcome. i am delighted on behalf of the jewish historical society and the board members who are present tonight to thank the national archives especially susan clifton for partnering with us on this annual program to commemorate jewish heritage month. we also want to thank the supreme court historical society and its staff for joining us in tonight's program. and a special thank you to dr. arnold resnakof, a longtime

friend of the hiss stotorical society, who first suggested dr. dalin first come to us as a speaker. what a pair tonight. i want to welcome frank gilbert, a past president of the jewish historical society who's also the grandson of justice lewis brandies. thanks to frank's generosity we're excited to have in our collection the justice's law schoolbook and a beautiful oil portrait. as many of you may know, the jewish historical society is planning a new jewish museum in washington, as part of the capitol crossing development project, which is a few blocks from here. last november our historic 1876 synagogue was cut from its base and moved for the second time in its life 50 feet into the middle of 3rd street northwest where

it's going to remain until the third and final move to the newly reopened corner of third and f streets northwest, and there it will become the centerpiece of our brand-new museum complex. tonight's topic of jewish supreme court justices is one we plan to make a key element in the museum's exhibition and programming. tonight i have the honor of introducing our participants and thereby fulfilling the society's mission of joining history, current events and the promise of the future together to tell one of the many stories of jewish washington. dr. david dalin, historian and rabbi is the author, co-author or editor of 11 books. "the jewish experience." co-authored with one of our

prior panelists and the "presidents of the united states and the jews." his articles and book reviews have appeared in a variety of publications. tonight dr. dalin will talk about his published book, which which has already received which has already received excellent reviews since its release in april. dr. dalin examines their lives and legal careers. as well as the changing role of jews within the american legal profession. dr. dalin will be joined in conversation with seth waxman who is himself a distinguished leader in the washington and national legal communities. mr. waxman served as the 41st solicitor general of the united states from 1997 until january 2001.

after leaving government mr. waxman taught both as a visiting fellow at the john f. kennedy school of government and as a visiting professor at the georgetown university law center. mr. waxman has argued 33 cases before the supreme court and has tried and argued dozens of other high-profile complex civil and criminal cases in federal and state courts across the country. so now i'm sure after all that you're ready and i am, too. it's my pleasure to invite dr. dallen and seth waxman to the stage. gentleman. [ applause ] >> it's so good to be here. >> good evening. i'm seth waxman. this is the guest of honor and

the author rabbi david dalin. we couldn't hear any of the introduction because we were being held in a secure location, but the reviews are terrific. it's already trending on twitter. before we start, let me just say i think i will -- i have about 4 1/2 hours worth of questions to ask you. >> oh, good. good, good, good. >> but i'm going to limit myself to 45 minutes. and then assuming i can keep track of time, which i'm not very good at, open it up for audience questions. people are interested, they have particular questions and we have a great font of knowledge. i'm told if you have a question you should go to the aisles to the microphones. but i have to say i don't see any microphones. anyway, they will magically appear. so as you're thinking of

questions and thinking about asking of questions, once i open it up, in case i forget to tell you, please make you way to the mic, because this program is being broadcast, in addition to the fact that either one or both of us won't be able to hear you and your fellow an endees may not be able to hear. people in the audience would like to hear what your question is. and i also want to make sure the previous speaker already told you this, there's a book signing following the program. and the author himself will be available to answer questions and sign books for you. so welcome. so professor dalin and i met yesterday. and we immediately agreed on the convention that we would refer to each other by first names. so david, let me just start by asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your own sort of professional

journey. i know you're an ordained rabbi and an author of books about jewish political history. how did you get to -- what's your story before picking up the pen to write this book? >> well, seth, that's a great question. i also want to thank you. i'm honored to have you as my interlocutor for this conversation. i'm actually an ordained rabbi, but most of my work is as an american jewish historian. my biggest field of interest is american jewish political history and biography. i've co-authored a book on the presidents of the united states of the jews. i'm written major articles not only about jews in the presidency but the presidential appointment process and the various presidents who have apoined jews to the cabinets and to other offices and the relationship of this appointment process to the jewish community. and through that, i became

tremendously interested of the whole subject of jewish appointees to the supreme court and their relationship also to the presidents who appointed them. and also to their lives, legal careers and jewish personas. as well as -- and i, many years ago, i became fascinated with grandice. and of course i attended brandies university, as did my daughter. i began reading biographies of brandies. that led me to additional biographies of several people. and i gravitated more and more to the jewish justices. and after you read them, brand dies, frankfurter, i thought it would be interesting -- there had never been a book bringing it up to the president. this book actually goes through the 2016 election.

so this is, as i think was said before, not only the first history of the jewish justices who have served in the past or who currently served on the supreme court but also a collective biography, as it were, of the jewish men and women who were served on the court. and that's been an abiding interest for many, many years. and i finally decided it was a choice between two things. i've also written about jews in baseball, which could be a future book. but i finally decided on the jewish justices instead. >> well, i'd be very happy to come interview you about your forthcoming jews in baseball. jews in squash, jews in polo, whatever it is. >> those are two areas i hadn't thought about. probably the jews in squash will be a relatively small chapter i would guess. >> well, the ball is small, but i think without doing the

research as an historian y, i'm sure you appreciate there might be a lot of surprises in the national archives. >> in fact, god willing, if this book comes, i will come to the national archives. because i know a bit about jews in baseball, a little about basketball but precious little about jews in polo or squash. this is great. >> terrific, because i think i have some information i can give you. >> this is great. >> so i have to say in talking to people about this event and people asking about the event, one question that i get that i've gotten more frequently than i guess i would have anticipated, and this may be a generational thing because it is mainly from colleagues and professional friends who are significantly younger than i am, just so that everybody puts this

in context, i'm 65. so you can be significantly younger than i am and still have had a long successful career in the law. but one recurring question i've. but one question, one recurring question that i've gotten, even from people in my generation, is like, there is a reason to think about a group of justices as jewish justices? >> well, yeah. >> and the answer, obviously, in your mind is yes. >> yes. >> so, why don't you start by answering all of those questions that i've gotten. like, why write about jewish justices, you know? is that a big deal? >> well, it is. i'll tell you why. before justice brandeis was appointed in january of 1916, before that appointment, it would have been -- it was unimaginable that you would have a jewish justice on the court. i want to come back to the question in a minute of anti-semitism, the rise and decline of anti-semitism in the american legal profession. but so many things were

different then. it would have truly been unimaginable in brandeis' day that there would be not one, not two, but three jews on the supreme court simultaneously and as much so that there would be a supreme court of six catholic justices and three jewish justices and no protestants on the court, which from 2010 when elena kagan succeeded john paul stevens who was the last protestant, until the appointment now of neil gorsuch, who is an episcopalian, this -- you know, but this kind of thing would have been unimaginable. in the same era, you had in the two decades brandeis was on the court, you had the emergence of what became a catholic seat on the court, and then eventually an african-american seat on the court. and now, you know, there are three women on the court and i think it's aseamatic that there

will continue to be two or three women on the court. this brings, if i can, the whole question of how this came about and anti-semitism within the legal profession, and is it okay to address this with brandeis or -- >> well, i'm going to ask you -- >> please. >> you decide whether to address it now. it certainly is something i want you to talk about. >> sure, sure. >> i was thinking that, you know, for those two or three people in the country who can't rattle off automatically who these, you know, sometimes mysterious eight jewish justices are, maybe it would help to sort of set things off just by having you identify who they were who they were nominated were and when they served. i'll ask you questions about each of them -- >> sure, sure. >> and what their, as your subtitle says, their legacy is. >> yeah. >> but -- i guess we may have to

continue this discussion to tomorrow afternoon, but let's start with louis brandeis being the first one. let's go through the eight, particularly the ones who, you know, have now passed away, so that people in the audience understand the sort of landscape of what we're going to be talking about in addressing, among other things, the rise and fall or ascendancy of anti-semitism in the profession. >> okay, brandeis was appointed by woodrow wilson in january of 1916. it became a major issue of controversy in the wilson administration. he was facing a very tough re-election battle the following november against charles evans hughes, the former governor of new york, who actually resigned his supreme court seat to run against wilson.

and by the way, if anyone wants to know the stories, some are apocryphal some are not. charles evans hughes went to bed the night of the election thinking he had won and wilson assuming they had lost, and they both woke up to the change in realities. now, the brandeis nomination and senate confirmation battle went on for four months. it was arguably the most contentious senate confirmation battle until the battle over robert bourke in 1987. and much of the controversy had to do -- brandeis was considered one of the leading progressive reformers. he had been woodrow wilson's main economic adviser since wilson ran for election in 1912, and wilson had hoped to appoint him attorney general, but the avalanche of anti-semitic

opposition forestalled that, but wilson remained committed to appointing him. and when he nominated him, he persevered and stood by him. now -- and later on, maybe, we can talk about the actual opposition that was -- most of the opposition was anti-semitic in nature, not because of his role as what was called the people's attorney. and wilson had one advantage, by the way, that president obama did not have when he nominated merrick garland last year. by the way, some of you may know, or probably most of you know that merrick garland would have been the ninth jewish justice on the court. but wilson had a democratic senate, and there were several progressive republicans who crossed party lines, so to speak, to support brandeis, so that all helped. >> so, let me just -- this is fascinating, but i want to make sure that in this introductory section that we get through all

eight of them. >> okay. i'll try to make them -- >> let's just give us the real bare-bones, thumbnail sketch. >> real, bare-bones, thumbnail sketch. >> so, he finally gets confirmed in 1916 and he serves until when? >> 23 years, until 1939. and he's succeeded -- well, first of all, benjamin cardozo was appointed with him in 1932 by herbert hoover. now, seven of the eight jewish justices were appointed by democratic presidents, but hoover was, of course, a republican president. what's interesting is cardozo was not only a lifelong democrat but had supported al smith against hoover publicly in the 1928 presidential election. so, hoover transcended party allegiance. and just to conclude, cardozo was considered the preeminent american jurist and judge not serving on the supreme court, and most historians and

biographers -- you know, hoover didn't have the greatest presidency in american history, and his appointment of cardozo is considered one of truly, one of his truly great achievements as president. so, cardozo dies. he had been ill when he came to washington. after six years in the court, in 1938, and -- >> and we're just going to come back to this, but i'm correct, am i not, that for a brief period of time, cardozo in an era of anti-semitism -- >> yes. >> -- cardozo and brandeis served on the supreme court together. >> simultaneously for six years. and by the way, putting aside the anti-semitism, there was an act, in that era, a profoundly viciously anti-semitic justice, james mcreynolds. now, he had been outraged when brandeis was appointed. in fact, there's a famous photo of the supreme court in 1924 that lacks one justice. mcreynolds would not permit

himself to be photographed near brandeis. and when hoover, from mcreynolds' vantage point, had the audacity to appoint another jew, he personally wrote a scathing letter to hoover pleading with him not to afflict the court with another hebrew. and when brandeis retired in 1939, there's a tradition that members of the court all sign a, it's like a retirement letter which is framed for the retiring justice, and mcreynolds refused to do so. so, for six years, there were two jews on the court, when in 1939, when cardozo retired -- well, actually, he had passed away -- right after his retirement, fdr, franklin delano roosevelt, appointed his old friend and adviser, felix

frankfurter, and he served two weeks with brandeis before brandeis officially retired. frankfurter -- just briefly, frankfurter and fdr had met at a lunch at new york's harvard club in 1906. they were both recent law school graduates from very different backgrounds, both very ambitious politically, and their connection and friendship continued on again, off again for 33 years until fdr's appointment of frankfurter. >> okay. >> okay. >> so, we've got three -- so far by my count, we've come up with three and one anti-jewish justice. >> right, right. >> so, we got mcreynolds out of the way. >> and he retires in the 1940s with -- >> all right. i promise you, we're coming back to all of these people, except mcreynolds. >> of course, of course. >> but who's next? >> okay, next is. >> so, frankfurter passes away.

>> frankfurter passes away in 19 -- actually, he retires in 1962, passes away in 1965. he, interesting to note, all of the jewish justices were liberal justices by any definition. frankfurter had been a flaming liberal harvard law professor and attorney, but he became more and more conservative also in his 23 years on the court, and when he resigned in 1962, he was the most conservative member of the warren court, which, he became a prophet or advocate of judicial restraint. anyway, john f. kennedy then appoints arthur goldberg to succeed frankfurter on the court. now, arthur goldberg is the only one of the eight jewish justices to have served in the cabinet before. he had been -- he was probably the best-known labor leader -- lawyer and labor negotiator in the country. he had negotiated the merger of the afl-cio, and president

kennedy appointed him secretary of labor. and he served the shortest tenure, less than three years on the court. and because which -- >> we're going to come back to this, i promise. >> -- to lbj, persuaded him to leave a lifetime position and he lived until 1991 to accept a position given at the pleasure of the president, ambassador to the united nations, during which time he had a falling out with lbj and he was out of the u.n. in 2 1/2 years. >> all right, so he's out and who's in? >> he's in, okay. abe fortas, lbj's closest political adviser for many years. and if i could just -- the genesis of their friendship, if i could do it in a minute or two? >> are we going to talk about landslide lyndon? >> landslide lyndon. >> okay. >> this is great. this is great story. 1948, fortas and lyndon johnson had met in the new deal.

fortas was a new deal lawyer, which we'll come back to, first in his class at yale law school, couldn't get a job at a major law firm because he was jewish. he went, worked in the new deal, got to know a young congressman from texas, lyndon johnson. 1948. in the election, the fight of his lifetime johnson gave up a safe congressional seat to run for the senate from texas. had he lost that race, we never would have heard of lyndon johnson. in an amazingly close race -- >> are we sure he didn't lose that race? >> well, i'll come back to that. in my book, i document the fact that, well, there's a good argument that he did lose that race, which, for that, you'll have to read the book. now, it was such a close race, after 1,000,560 votes cast or thereabouts, it was sent to a blue-ribbon committee of washington attorneys to investigate and, you know, check

about whether there was voter fraud. and while we know there was a great deal of voter fraud. they personally chaired this committee, and who argued the case at the supreme court in favor of lyndon johnson was a young, up-and-coming attorney by the name of abe fortas. and johnson never forgot this. throughout his years as majority leader at the senate in the 1950s and as vice president and as vice president, abe fortas was his closest adviser. he and his wife, ladybird, socialized with abe fortas and his wife, and he always, always wanted to promote to offer fortas to, you know, reciprocate and do something for his friend, abe. and despite the fact that abe fortas didn't want to, he turned down an offer to be attorney general. and then his wife helped him turn down, which is a great story in the book, that and also johnson's nudging him and

pressuring him to go on the court. the only way he could do that was to take arthur goldberg off the court. so, there was then a tradition of the jewish seat on the court, which if you want, we'll talk about. so, he basically, on the way -- invites fortas to a meeting about something else, actually, vietnam policy, and he invites him to go out to the rose garden where he wants to just make some announcements, a press conference. on the way over there, much to fortas' anger and surprise, he announced -- he tells him that he's announcing his nomination to the supreme court. and, by the way, arthur goldberg had not yet officially accepted his invitation to the u.n. so, and, basically, we can come back to it, he had to take a 90% salary cut. in the 1950s, he and his wife were partners in the major law

firm that bore then fortas' name, drove twin rolls royces. they had a combined income in the 1950s of $400,000. his wife, who you'll learn about in the book, was a piece of work, had 150 pairs of shoes in one closet. and they loved -- >> can i -- >> yes, stop me. >> this is all really interesting -- [ laughter ] but unless i'm wrong, abe fortas actually didn't serve very long on the supreme court. >> no. >> and in any event, we seem to be sort of stuck on the fifth justice, so -- >> we want to go -- >> yeah, i have a whole, like, book of questions to ask you, so -- >> and also -- >> i just want you to list off the other ones. >> and tomorrow afternoon i've got a flight to catch, so i can't stay until then. but you know, okay. so, anyway, we'll talk about afterwards in what became the biggest scandal of the jewish justice, abe fortas eventually resigned the court in 1969. and by the way, he served a few months longer than arthur goldberg. and in that case, richard nixon

appointed harry blackman to the court, so it was a protestant which ended the tradition of a so-called jewish seat. now, it would take 24 years before another jew would be appointed to the court. in -- well, in the interim -- i'm trying to think who reagan nominated. >> many people. >> yeah, many people. yes! many people. but after robert -- oh, another ginsberg, douglas ginsburg, who had to withdraw his candidacy when it was revealed that he had smoked marijuana not only while a law student but also while a law professor at harvard. anyway -- >> shocking no one, but scandalizing the political establishment. >> and especially the reagan family and reagan's advisers. so, you wait a few more years. in 1994, bill clinton appoints

ruth bader ginsburg to the court. and a year later, stephen breyer to the court. these were the only supreme court appointments that bill clinton had. he appointed two jews. ruth bader ginsburg -- now, none of these -- they and elena kagan thereafter did not confront any anti-semitism either on their ascents in their legal careers to the court or, their religion was almost not mentioned in the hearings at all, the confirmation hearings. ruth bader ginsburg, who we can talk about later, did face a lot of obstacles on being a woman in a legal profession that was still predominantly male. when she entered harvard law school in 1956, she was only one of nine students in a class of over 500, and there's a lot to talk about here, but i wouldn't get carried away now. she became, of course, the first -- the second woman after sandra day o'connor, and the

first jewish woman on the court. now, a year later, stephen breyer, who i am proud to say is a fellow alumsman from san francisco, the only san francisco jew as a proud san franciscan to be on the court. technically the only san franciscan because technically warren didn't live in san francisco. but anyway, he is appointed, and both of them still serve on the court today. they're considered pretty much part of a liberal bloc on the court, and ruth bader ginsburg, who just turned 84, has now surpassed brandeis and frankfurter by a few months in terms of longevity of jewish justices on the court. stephen breyer had a very interesting -- i'll talk about other things, but just to say that he served in the 1980s on leave from harvard law school as the chief counsel of the senate judiciary committee.

both he and ruth bader ginsburg were known as voices for, you know, conveviality on the court. he got along with everyone. as counsel for the judiciary committee, he was able to get along famously with the late ted kennedy on the one hand, the leading democrat, and orrin hatch on the other hand. kennedy and orrin hatch agreed on not many things. they also were close personal friends, but they agreed on their admiration and respect for steve breyer. when he was nominated in the last days of jimmy carter's administration to the federal bench, they came together to finesse his nomination, and then 14 years later. and as many people said, anyone who could get along so wonderfully and so closely with both orrin hatch and ted kennedy must have been doing something right. >> okay, so, drum roll, please, to elena kagan.

>> okay. >> so we get through the introductory portion. >> we do. okay. elena kagan, who was a graduate of princeton university and harvard law school, was also a marshal scholar at oxford university, as was stephen breyer, started out working in the clinton administration on the domestic policy staff. she then became the first woman dean and the first jewish dean of harvard law school, and then she followed the distinguished steps -- >> i guess if she was the first woman dean, probably would also qualify as the first jewish woman -- >> yeah that was redundant on my part. but i was going to say, she followed in the great steps of my interlocketry and became the next jewish solicitor general in 2009, and in this case, the first woman solicitor general, and i guess the fourth jewish solicitor general, you told me.

and then a year later, president obama appointed her to the supreme court. and by the way, one of the efforts of presidents when they appoint justices is to appoint, hopefully, younger justices who with good health may serve 30 years. she was the exact same age, 49 going on a few months to 50, as neil gorsuch was, yeah. but that's -- >> and that's the golden era to get nominated. >> that's right. >> in the current era. >> that's right. that's right. but now i think i've exhausted the litany, except, of course, if we have time about merrick garland, who did not quite make it to the court. >> yeah. well, i mean, we're talking about legacies and history here. and i think you'll agree as an historian that it is perhaps a little premature to talk about the legacies. >> yeah, yeah. >> of the sitting justices. >> i think you're right. >> so, while i do have some questions for you about the sitting justices, they are in the process of writing their own legaci legacies, and i'm going to focus a lot of, in my remaining 20

minutes before opening it up to the audience -- >> oh, gosh! >> i guess that gives me about 17 minutes to get to my concluding remarks. >> hopefully, i can keep my replies short. >> i want to ask you some things about these justices in particular and have you share with the audience some of your learning about them. but i need to have you -- when we talk about these people as jewish justices, we are using the convention here that they were born to jewish mothers. >> yes. >> correct? >> that's all correct. >> to what extent are we talking about people for whom jewish observance, jewish spirituality and jewish belief was a significant, appeared to you to be a significant aspect of their lives? >> okay. >> up to the time that they served on the court and while they were serving on the court, because you know, they're jewish because they had a jewish mother, but i think a lot of

people want to know -- this is a lead-up to the question -- to what extent their jewish faith, their jewish beliefs, their cultural judaism may or may not have affected or influenced who they were as people and how they performed as judges. so -- >> with the similar exceptions of justice cardozo, who came from a very religious family and justice goldberg, who was very active in the jewish community, and by the way, had an annual passover that was the talk of washington -- >> which really, fair to say, was more like a labor movement revival meeting than a seder. >> it was, indeed. a perennial guest to this day that was george mimi -- >> rob george mimi. >> rob george, who regaled the seder dinner and audience with irish songs, with irish folk

songs. and by the way, goldberg's wife, dorothy, had yiddish songs. i'll come back, because later on, there's an interesting anecdote to go over, but your question is well taken. there was not -- most of the jewish justices were not really practicing religious jews. and starting with brandeis, it's interesting, he came from a family -- he grew up in louisville, kentucky. his parents were german-speaking jews from prague. he was raised almost as a christian, although both of his parents were jewish. his mother was said to, you know, admire the ethics of all religions and the rituals and observances of none, and in their home, they never celebrated the jewish sabbath or christmas and hanukkah, rather, but christmas. and brandeis continued in this tradition. and if i could tell just two

very short but quick ant yek do anecdotes as an example -- maybe too short. >> we don't want to give away the whole book. >> maybe one rather than two. brandeis was a prolific letter-writer. there are many volumes of his letters. 1900, his two young daughters were on vacation in the days before christmas in new york visiting relatives. brandeis wrote a letter to them saying, please don't worry, the christmas tree is set up and santa claus will be here to greet you. the other thing which i always find is fascinating is he was very close to his brother, alfred, who remained in louisville. now, every month or six weeks, his cousin, alfred, would send them a ham from louisville. now, my question was, there were no hams in boston? but there would be these wonderful notes from brandeis saying, thank you, we're overjoyed, the brandeis household is overjoyed here, we just received your ham today, et cetera.

now -- >> i want to come back after we get done with the yiddish part of all of the justices, or at least the nonsitting justices. i want to get back to zionism, and there's a very interesting story here. >> yeah, yeah. >> but, so -- >> zionism -- >> no, cardozo. >> oh, cardozo! okay. cardozo is descendant from one of the most -- probably the preeminent is partic jewish family in america, a direct ascendant of gershwin mendis sadis, the only rabbi at george washington's inauguration in 1790. mendis-sashis had been the first screw ever appointed to the board of governors of columbia university at the recommendation

of alexander hamilton, and not until benjamin cardozo would another jew be appointed. he came -- one of his cousins was the -- what is it, the deputy mayor of new york. emma lazarus was a first cousin, et cetera. >> so, we know -- this is an appropriate term for a sefartic jew, so we know about his yicis, but what about his beliefs, his practices? >> well, he, too, he belonged to what's called the spanish-portuguese synagogue in new york, which is the oldest continuing synagogue in the united states. he belonged meant that he kept a ticket, and when he was in new york, he occasionally went on the high holidays. i mean, he always kept it -- there was a seat in his honor. he very rarely attended services there. he had his bar mitzvah there. and, but he, for the most part,

unlike brandeis, who served, you know, i would say glut trafe food always, cardozo would never serve pork or shellfish in his home. and by the way, he was a little taken aback when on his first invitation to the brandeis home, when he came to washington, that's what brandeis served them. but he -- >> fair to say that didn't auger well for a close relationship between the two on the court. >> and i think that's an understatement, yes. on the court or off the court. but he remained always affiliated. when he died, the memorial service was at the israel of spanish portuguese. he remained a non -- i guess one could call it a nonpracticing orthodox jew. if and when he went to a synagogue, it had to be an orthodox synagogue. and his closest friend in the world was irving lehman of

lehman brothers, the older brother of herbert lehman, the governor and senator from new york. and when brandeis -- when cardozo died, he died at the lehmans' mansion and they took care of him, he and his wife, sally, in his last weeks. they were so shocked when they went to -- they had the funeral, because one of cardozo's other closest friends was steven wise, steven s. wise, one of the great zionist leaders in america and one of the pre-eminent rabbis in america, but steven wise was a reformed rabbi, and the leaders of sharif israel would not permit him to officiate in any way or even give a eulogy, and that shocked irving lehman who was a really committed reformed jew, the president of temple emanu-el, and even his close friends didn't realize how

orthodox jew he really was or was not because he never practiced his orthodox judaism. >> okay, so, felix frankfurter. >> ah, this is interesting. >> born in the old country. >> born in the old country. >> comes to the united states at age 12 not knowing one word of english. >> correct. >> bar mitzvahed? >> bar mitzvahed. >> goes to a yashiva. >> for a while. >> in bed-stuy because they thought it was the safest school for him. >> yep, yep. >> okay, then what happened? >> okay. at the age of 15, he decides judaism is not for him. he becomes a self-proclaimed agnostic. he goes to city college and then harvard law school, where he's at the top of his class. by the way, i have the first published photograph of him in his harvard law school dorm in the book. but he wanted very much to become part of the protestant elite in the country. he married the daughter of a protestant minister. his mother said we did not attend the wedding.

he never set foot in a temple or synagogue in his adult life except to give an occasional lecture, but here's the paradox. in his will, to the surprise and shock even of his protestant wife and most of his friends, he asked that the coddish, the traditional jewish prayer of mourning, be recited at his funeral. now -- >> by? >> by, he specified, lewis henkin. lewis henkin was one of his favorite law clerks, was not only a practicing orthodox jew, but the son of one of the preeminent orthodox rabbis in america. frankfurter the agnostic admired henkin -- >> and a preeminent legal scholar. >> and a preeminent legal scholar who for 40 years was a law professor at columbia university, and you may know better, i think one of the great authorities on international law. >> correct. >> he at one point had been a consultant to the state department. and frankfurter remained close

to him. in fact, he always said he was his one friend who was a practicing orthodox jew. >> so, frankfurter, you know, very jewish until 15. >> yeah. >> casts it all off, becomes jewish again at his funeral. >> at his funeral. and he says to another friend shortly before his death, he says, well, you know, i was born jewish, most of my life i did not live as a jew, but i want to die as a jew. >> okay. so, so much for jewish influence during his 23 years on the court. okay, so, we're up to -- >> yeah, we are up to -- >> -- justice goldberg, who did belong to a synagogue his whole life. >> yes. >> what else. >> okay, he was an early zionist. we'll come back to it. in fact, he and his wife were close friends of golden mayera. she was in milwaukee as teenagers in the zionist movement. he grew up in chicago, was first

in his class at northwestern university. couldn't get a job in one of the big law firms but got a job at a small, what was then a small jewish law firm founded by the two pritsker brothers. now, if this name sounds familiar, they're the pritsger family that eventually started and still owns the hyatt hotel chain. >> can we just get back to the spirituality. >> oh, the spirituality, yes, yes, yes! i'm going to keep my watch out to remind me. okay, spirituality was interesting. he was a much more jewish jew than any of the other justices. >> sounds like it wasn't saying very much, but -- >> it wasn't saying very much, truly. i'll give you one example and then one great anecdote. when he used to have -- he didn't keep kosher, the dietary laws, but when he'd sponsor these great seders, he would

insist, if any of his law clerks observed kaushwut, he would make them strictly kosher. and one of the years, allan dershowi dershowitz, who many of you know of, was strictly an orthodox jew, so for this, he had the best kosher caterer in washington cater a very expensive kosher seder. and by the way, on his supreme court letterhead, he wrote out the goldberg family recipe for karotsis, the traditional passover dish, which was sent to the kosher caterer, a copy of which is one of the photos in my book. but he was -- spiritually, he was a jewish jew, as was his wife. and i wanted to -- can i tell you one quick anecdote, cute anecdote. it will be very quick, i hope, that -- >> you know, we're not -- it's five minutes to 8:00 and we're not even up to fortas yet. just on yiddish kite.

>> on yiddish kite. he always told the story of visiting his -- while he was secretary of labor, his elderly jewish mother in chicago. and while he was over sleeping one day and just kind of half awake, the phone rings, and his mother asks, who is this, and it's president kennedy. so he answers the president. so, she says, the president's new of witshul. >> okay, just a word or two about the yiddish kite of justice fortas, and then i want to ask you to reflect again on my question of, so why are we talking about jewish justices, the extent, if any, to which -- and i know you're not a lawyer or a legal scholar -- in your research, you were able to discern any impact on the

jurisprudence of these people of the fact that they were at least born jewish. >> okay. first, fortas. >> first fortas. >> okay, fortas, like frankfurter was born into an orthodox family. he grew up in memphis, tennessee. he also pretty much cut his ties with orthodoxy in high school and continued to be really indifferent to anything in jewish religious practice or tradition. he is also, his wife was not jewish, and she was not particularly interested in judaism at all, and she continued in this -- you know, pushed him in that direction. he was the first in his class at yale law school. by the way, the same legend has it that while brandeis was first in his class scholastically at harvard, a scholastic average that's never been met since, they said the same thing about

fortas. fortas' mentor was william douglas, who later was on the court. he also couldn't get a job at a law firm in a big-city, blue chip law firm, blue shoe law firm, so he went to work on the new deal. and of course, as i said before, that's when he meets lbj. he eventually forms a new law firm in washington -- what is the first name? >> arnold fortas and porter. >> arnold fortas and porter, which is today arnold and porter, which i'll make mention about at the end. okay, his wife eventually -- who is a tax specialist, becomes a partner at the same firm. they have a combined salary in the middle 1950s of over $400,000. he would have to take a 90% salary cut to join the court. they drove -- >> so, was he going to schule?

>> never. and his wife discouraged him tremendously in that area, although when he visited, they never had children. his jewish nephews and nieces in memphis, he talked to -- i mean, they told him about what it was like to live a jewish life, which he knew very little about, except for one -- >> so -- >> can i say one thing? he was very pro israel. his closest friend in washington for many years was avrin harman, the former israeli ambassador to the united states, later president of huber university. >> some of his best friends were jewish. >> some of his best friends were jewish! you know, i should have put that in the book. >> you know, so, maybe the answer to this question is obvious, since the justices that we've talked about so far, that none of them -- either they had no jewish upbringing, as in the case of louis brandeis, or they had a jewish upbringing which

they foresook, largely in the case of the others. i wouldn't say -- it's probably not fair to say about cardozo. he just became indifferent and inobservant. but unlike, you know, frankfurter or fortas, you know, which was just a categorical rejection, this is a disability of my birth that i'm going to try to overcome. >> yeah. in fact, frankfurter actually said it was an accident at birth. >> is it fair to say that it's hard to discern an effect of their judaism on their jurisprudence? >> i think it is fair to say. by the way, with one very quick caveat, because i know mr. gilbert, who is the grandson of justice brandeis, is here. when his parents, i guess, when they had children and when justice brandeis in the late '20s and '30s had jewish grandchildren, then he began to write cards to them for rosh

hashanah and for hanukkah, and that was a jewish influence late in life. but no, i think you're fair to -- it's fair to say that their judaism had very little, if anything, impact on their jurisprudence, on their judicial opinions, even in the case of cardozo. and the one thing that did do, which is a legacy of both brandeis and frankfurter, for the first time, they appointed jewish law clerks, and that became something -- it wasn't out of religiousity, and some of the law clerks were more religious. but i think it's fair to say, with possibly one exception, that with frankfurter that it was negative, actually, that their jewishness or jewish background had no effect on their jurisprudence. so, one other exception, goldberg.

on state issues, goldberg's jewish background did have some influence on his opinions. >> so, i think -- you know, a couple things more about justice brandeis. >> yeah. >> you know, you talk about this in your book, but justice brandeis had an uncle -- >> yes. >> -- with whom he was very close, close enough to take his middle name. >> middle name. >> who was very, very observant. >> right. >> and do you want to talk about that just a little bit? >> sure. his uncle's name was louis dembitz. and brandeis eventually changed his middle name from david to dembitz in honor of his uncle. his uncle in louisville was one of the leaders of the jewish orthodox community. he was a jewish scholar who actually published a couple of books on the bible with the

jewish publication society. he was an orthodox jew. brandeis recalled in his letters very memorably, the only exposure to traditional shabbat dinners on a friday night or saturday would be at his uncle's home. and, but he didn't emulate his uncle in this way. it was his uncle who inspired him to pursue a career in the law. now, his uncle also was a fervent abolitionist, and this is interesting. his uncle named two of his sons abraham lincoln dembitz and henry clay dembitz. now, also, his uncle was one of the founders of the republican party. that's the party of lincoln and the abolitionists in kentucky and was one of the three people who put lincoln's name in nomination at the 1860 republican convention. but there was a very great closeness between the two, and it was his uncle's legal

scholarship also that inspired brandeis. but his religiosity and his religious practice did not, and he somewhat separated the two. >> so, on the, you know, let's turn, you know, now for a few minutes to zionism, because, you know, any biography of -- >> right. >> zionism is an important theme, i think, with the justices that we've been talking about. >> sure, sure. >> and you know, none more than louis brandeis, who, of course, was the president of the american jewish zionist movement -- >> what today is the zionist organization of america, yeah. >> and your book recounts at one point actually contemplated resigning his supreme court seat in order to assume leadership of the world zionist organization. >> and especially -- this is the 100th anniversary of the belfour declaration this november, and he worked so assiduously on the court, by the way, which wasn't

really -- it was an extrajudicial, which i don't know if we'll have time to talk about, activity, pushing the wood window willrow wilson admio support the declaration. >> how do you explain the fact that we have a person raised in a not terribly, a resolutely secular family in kentucky -- >> yeah. >> you know, the son of a descendant of the german jewish immigration. >> right, right. >> living in a community, you know, very unlike the sort of schtettle existence that frankfurter came out of and moved into in bedford-stuyvesant and the lower east side. when does he, quote, discover zionism, and what does zionism have to do with louis brandeis' persona and beliefs? >> it's amazing. the first 50 years of his life, he had no jewish connection at all. he lived in areas where there were no jewish neighbors, he had no -- he had one or two jewish

friends. the genesis of this, which i talk about a lot in my book, was he was invited in to be one of the negotiators at the garment workers' strike in new york in 1910. for the first time in his life, he met east european jews, and he found an affinity with them. it's just -- i mean, which he talks about. these were jews -- his other jewish friends had always been very assimilated german jews. and all of a sudden, he, somehow there was -- it struck a chord with him. and these were yiddish-speaking jews. of course, he didn't know yiddish. and he became interested from that experience in zionism. and some of the people he mentioned there, henry moskow z moskowitz, who later played a role in the senate confirmation battles, who was a leading political figure in new york at the time and others who came from more traditional backgrounds. and jacob dahas, who had been

the founder of political zion's first basically representative of the united states. they also told him more and more that he didn't know about his uncle dembitz, who was a profound zionist leader and an early zionist leader. and as time went on, he began -- he was jewishly almost illitera illiterate. he began to learn more and more about judaism, and he began to find a tremendous link between zionism and americanism, and that was the key for him. and i forget -- i just wish i knew the exact phrase, but his famous phrase at one point was that, to be a -- or what is it? to be a better american -- >> i can remember the phrase. >> you can remember this. please, clue me in on this. >> right. to be a great american, you first have to be a great jew,

and to be a great jew, you first have to be a great zionist. >> exactly. and that became -- >> which is a perplexing set of -- >> yes to say the least. >> -- set of propositions. >> it is. >> and probably amazing to the vast majority of americans who not only don't feel that they need to be a great jew to be a great american. >> right. >> but don't have the tools to become a great jew in any event. >> in any event! and, like he didn't before, and it created a lot of tension because so many jewish leaders didn't feel the same way. but once he became involved, it became his passion. also, he brought some wealthy jewish friends, german jews, like eugene meyer, the financier and founder of "the washington post," the "washington post" family, and abram filene, filene's basement and others, he brought them into the zionist

movement, also felix frankfurter, and to a good extent, benjamin cardozo. and by the way, it should be noted, a footnote -- benjamin cardozo officiated at felix frankfurter's wedding, which is just a nice thing to know. but brandeis was a charismatic speaker and close to woodrow wilson. he barnstormed the country in support of zionism, and he made zionism respectable amongst christians as well as jews. in fact, i must just share one story, one -- >> okay, i'm going to give you the hook, because i need to ask you one thing. i need you to tell us one thing about frankfurter, and i'm giving myself the nook two minutes, so people in the audience, get ready with your questions. >> well, several quick -- >> i can pass around all of the unasked questions that i have, if anybody flags. but frankfurter -- let me just -- >> sure. >> just to summarize my understanding of it. so, while frankfurter in many ways was a protege of --

>> brandeis. >> -- brandeis. >> yeah. >> very, very different as a personality. >> yes. >> very, very different in background. but was actually for many, many years actually paid by brandeis. >> yes. >> to write and publish as a very progressive public intellectual and deputized by brandeis to get involved and promote the zionist movement, and the book recounts a fascinating story in which frankfurter negotiates a letter from the then king of saudi arabia. >> yeah, yeah. >> saying that, you know, arabs favor the balfour declaration and favor the creation of a jewish homeland for which frankfurter took an outsized amount of credit. >> credit, and -- >> for whatever value it has. >> yeah.

>> but is it fair to say that frankfurter's devotion to zionism was more in the nature of an assignment? >> yes, very much so. >> okay. i'd like you to -- frankfurter was -- both brandeis and frankfurter, and fortas, for that matter, and goldberg were -- your book recounts beautifully how unbelievably tied in they were to the administrations of the priso presidents that appointed them, and probably nobody more profoundly and integrally than felix frankfurter, i mean, given the long scope of fdr's tenure. >> sure, sure. >> i mean, you can say that probably nobody more profoundly than abe fortas, who seemed to spend more time in the white house and in the national security council than actually in the supreme court. >> and by the way -- >> to the point that his law clerks felt free to take naps in the supreme court -- >> that's right. >> -- because they were sure he wasn't going to show up. >> and something i didn't know before this, it was abe fortas who drafted lbj's 1964 state of

the union address. >> so, there's no reason to think that, is there, that felix frankfurter had an overwhelming degree of influence, both over fdr and over his, frankfurter's own many proteges in the administration. i'd just like, before we open it up to question, i'd like you to recount for us the episode you describe in connection with the holocaust of jan carski, who he was, what he discovered and what he did it with it in washington, particularly with respect to frankfurter, because this is something i did not know and i find amazing. >> well, yeah, no, certainly. you know,an carski some of you may know of, because i think taught for many years at georgetown in his later years.

jan carski was the representative of the polish government in exile. he had been -- he had gotten into the auschwitz death camp and realized in secret what was being done there. he then became the emissary to tell the western world what was happening in the holocaust. and he comes to the united states at the end of 1942 with a report that he wrote, but also his firsthand account of what was happening in the final solution. now, first, he meets -- he is told -- frankfurter is a very close friend of the polish ambassador to the united states, so he tells him you have to meet with justice frankfurter, who is, of course, jewish. so, jan carski tells him in documented detail about the horrors that he's witnessed

firsthand and about the nazis' war against the jews. and after speaking for close to a half an hour, frankfurter gets up -- he was always very formal -- and says, "sir, i cannot believe what you're saying." and jan carski says, mr. justice, i wouldn't lie to you, i wouldn't -- he said, no, no, you misunderstand me. he said, i cannot believe that in my, in this 20th century, that something as horrible as you are saying is actually taking place. he then turns his back on karski and walks out. karski then -- and the polish ambassador asked him to set up a meeting with fdr to convey this. frankfurter basically meets with fdr before and tells him that, well, he, himself, cannot believe that something like this is taking place. now, what's incredible about

this, frankfurter never lobbies fdr. one might have been expected that frankfurter, who used to lobby the president on a whole host of issues, including appointing his -- some of his students to federal judgeships -- in fact, he had a several year-long campaign to a point learned hand to supreme court. he used to call fdr at night even. when it came to the holocaust, he did nothing. in fact, he had an elderly uncle who was his favorite uncle, solomon frankfurter was arrested by the nazi police in austria, in vienna, and was held, in his 80s, was held a prisoner for several days. one would have expected then frankfurter to go to the president and say, please, do something to help my uncle, my favorite uncle. he didn't. instead, he went through an interesting connection, even more shocking, with lady astor

in england, who he knew as a friend, but -- one last thing. he was a protege of henry stimson, who was then the secretary of -- was it war or state? >> war. war. >> it was war, okay. his neighbor and close friend was john mccloy, the deputy secretary of war. he walked to work with john mccloy almost every single day. john mccloy was the war department official responsible for vetoing a war department proposal to bomb auschwitz, the death camp, in the railroads tour. he would see mccloy every day and talk to him. he never tried to persuade him to change that, nor stimson. >> if i'm correct, this was at a point in time in which allied bombers were bombing the industrial sections of auschwitz. >> precisely. within five minutes of auschwitz. but actually, the industrial section of auschwitz itself, it

would have -- this was in late 1944 when there was still 750 hungarian jews who were to be deported to auschwitz in the months before the end of the war. had they bombed even the railroads to auschwitz, not the death camp, it would have slowed up the nazi process of murder by many, many months. but mccloy successfully vetoed this, and felix frankfurter, as far as we know, never did a thing to try to dissuade him or his good friend, henry stimson. >> okay. we're throwing it open to the audience, and we have a member of the audience who's been sitting patiently by the assigned microphone. so, sir, if you could just identify yourself and let us know what your question is. >> i'm rashad thomas. i have like two questions. so, my first question is, did any of the justices encounter

anti-semitism after they became supreme court justices, number one? and number two, is there something distinctive about their jewishness that contributed to by and large their liberalism? i think most of the justices who have been jews on the court are left of center in their philosophy. so, does their jewishness play a role in that? thank you. >> well, the first question first, which is easy, only brandeis and cardozo and the anti-semitism they faced while on the court was from justice mcreynolds, who was a vocal anti-semite, but once they were secure on the court, they didn't face it. many of the -- they were all liberals, even frankfurter when he started out, and ruth bader ginsburg has written about this, attributing her support for social justice. and for so many liberals, social and economic issues, to her jewish background and to the

judaism. in this article, she said that me and so many of my colleagues are descendant from rabbis, and we've incilcated this. the problem with this, and ruth bader ginsburg is another exception, she's been very jewishly involved. many of the justices, for example, like brandeis and like -- well, let's say brandeis and frankfurter, even, in his early days didn't know enough about judaism to realize that their predisposition for social justice and helping the poor, et cetera, was coming from a tradition that they really didn't understand. so, that's kind of -- but they were all dominated by liberal democratic presidents, with the exception of cardozo. but most have attributed -- most people have attributed, including ruth bader ginsburg has written about this, that their liberalism came from

almost their dna, that this is -- they were all, you know, descendant, not all, but most of them were descendant from very strongly religious families. and by the way, a footnote on ruth bader ginsburg. at the age of 15, i have a photo in the book, she was the camp rabbi at her -- and she was known as that at her summer camp in the adirondacks. >> yes, sir. >> thank you very much for your words today. i am a college student here in the washington, d.c., area -- >> what's your name? >> my name is nathan wisler. >> okay, nathan, hi. >> i have been deeply interested in jewish history for several years, actually, since i was in elementary school, and your book is one of the most meaningful books that i have read in a long time. i've read it cover to cover. >> thank you so much. >> you're very welcome.

my question is, throughout your research, what did you find most interesting about learning about justice >> that's interesting. and that may be derivative of his jewish background. with the hassistance of alan dershowitz, he went on a campaign -- he tried to get a campaign going to render the death penalty unconstitutional. the problem was he had resigned from the court. when he did he might have achieved it himself. by the time the first death penalty cases came out and some of them were -- there was, really -- attacking the constitutionality of the death penalty was in 1970s. i cite in my book, he wrote a

famous article in 1969 about rendering the death penalty unconstitutional. that i would say was one area -- and he was probably still the most knowledgeable in terms of jewish religious traditions. and that came, i think, from his jewish -- his understanding of what then was not called of jewish value. >> thank you. >> sir? >> my name is shelly gilman. i live in louisville, kentucky. i beg to disagree with you. the entire jewish community lived in a central area of louisville, which was very open at that time to german jews and especially polish jews.

now, turning to your -- i'd like to present a slightly different perspective on this, rabbi. when i study the talmud and i perceive the obligations of a jew to the treatment of employees to the treatment of the relationships of other people, and i read the decisions of justice brandice as to how you treat your employees, and then when i look at justice c cardozo, not necessarily when he was on the supreme court but when i looked at his decisions on the court of appeals in new york and i see the salmon case, what is it the -- the requirement of honor among partners and the relationship of partners. then i see the fallsograph case,

the proximate cause. what do these things result from? these are stem from talmudic lessons of how we have contractual relations, commercial relationships. so i can draw a relationship to the understanding of jewish law to our civil law. >> yeah. >> your comment, rabbi. >> okay. i think there definitely is a relationship in the case of cardozo, who did, although he wasn't a practicing orthodox jew, but had a significant understanding of jewish tradition, talmudic precedence and tradition. brandice didn't have that kind of jewish knowledge or education. he later became interested in judi judai judaism. but i'm not sure one can draw a

connection between his decisions in those areas and his -- maybe they had been aware unconsciously. cordozo didn't set foot in a synagogue on a regular basis, he had the jewish knowledge. that would be the only thing i would say. grandice did, you're right, on those decisions. because he was a progressive reformer also, and he was one of the leading progressive voices in america at that point. >> brian's name stays alive with the university of louisville's law school. >> which is a wonderful -- it really is, yeah. and that was changed, i guess, just in the past 20 or 30 years? >> okay.

we have one from the left now we get one from the right. >> rabbi, yes my name is jonathan. i guess this is question is a different way, i'm on my way after this to another venue to beat my cohorts. that's a different discussion. maybe you can write a book on that day one day. anyway, my question is as follows, president wilson, there was actually a forum, program just put together some time ago by the famous author, his name escapes me. anyway, it was a three part serious about world war ii and it focused a lot on wilson.

and it had emphasize on -- unfortunately, some aspects of his racism, his anti-semitism and small mindedness, the way he approached certain things. i believe he was from virginia -- woodrow wilson, not brandice. first part is what really drove him, i mean, from everything you learned about him to sort of move beyond that, the way that he thought? small mindedness. which is exemplified in the show about why he was so emphatic, meaning wilson, about the 14 points. if congress wouldn't pass it the way he wanted, he didn't want it at all. the second part is -- has to do with a gentleman mentioned over

there. what jurisprudence was added that's famous today? >> i may refer to my legal colleague here and scholar about the pollsograph decision or my son in the audience who is a law student. and a brilliant one. okay. >> scanning the audience, i think it's fair to say it would be more challenging to pick somebody here without legal training than with legal training. >> like myself. one of the ironies is that we know now woodrow wilson was a racist. we now know that he reintroduced segregation into the capitol. on the other hand, he was -- when he was the president of princeton he appointed the first jewish faculty members at princeton. when he was governor of new jersey he appointed the first jewish new jersey state supreme court justice. in addition, besides grandice

who he stuck with. he didn't abandon him after he appointed several jews. the whole federal reserve system was the brainchild of one of the warburgs i think. he had many jewish advisors. there's no record of him being anti-semitic. there is certainly a growing record at princeton university there is an effort to take off wilson's name. but that would be my answer. it seems to be a paradox. that he really was not anti-semitic from any record that we have. but he was, you know, certainly a racist. >> okay. last question from the left and we will -- rabbi, yidentify you

>> you talk ed a lot about harvard and yale law school. can you a, state that any of these jewish justices did not go to these law schools and can you talk about the law of the elite law schools and kind of normalizing or kosherizing the justices so they could be on the supreme court. >> what's interesting, you know -- the only this -- i just mentioned merrick garland. when he was nominated, his religion was not mentioned at all. he would have been the ninth justice to go to harvard or yale law school. now, i'm trying to think -- granice, harvard. okay. cardozo weo went to columbia.

frankfurter, harvard. goldberg went to northwestern. not officially ivy league, but a tremendously good law school. fordice went to yale. ruth bader ginsberg went to harvard and columbia. she followed her husband. when he moved to new york to get a job, is she went to columbia. and she's the only -- not only woman, i think one of the few people in history who was on two law reviews for harvard and columbia. steven brier went to stanford as an under graduate and harvard law school. you know, alaina kagan went to princeton and harvard. it does say that once again, the decline of anti-semitism in the legal profession.

it was -- you'll read about it in my books, hopefully. the president of harvard, later achieved much more notoriety trying to introduce a quarter of jewish admissions to harvard in the 1920s. it was through these jewish students who grew up -- frankfurter, fordice were the first members of their families to go to college. they went to these prestigious law schools. so it was part of the greater acceptance in the law school than helped the -- change -- helped bring about a decrease of anti-semitism in the legal profession. just to end this on one story that's very interesting, i

think, when grandice's daughter and i believe it's mr. gi gillbreath's mother graduated at the top of her class. she had hoped to have gone to harvard or yale or columbia. the problem was in 1917, there were no women yet admitted. each of the deans said they would love to admit her but it would be another ten years before they would admit women. she went to not a bad law school, the university of chicago. where she met her husband, another law student. but i think it's what she said. as the decline of the -- there was a gradual decline of anti-semitism in the american legal profession. it was fostered in part by so many of these lawyers who were either immigrants themselves or the children of immigrants whose parents had never gone to

college going to top elite law schools in the country. and doing well there. and therein having distinguished legal careers arising from that. >> thank you all very much. [ applause ] tonight on american history tv, on cspan 3. we take a look at brown versus the board of education of topeka kansas. the case that struck down racial segregation in public schools. join us at 8:00 p.m. eastern here on cspan 3. online at cspan.org and streaming on the free cspan radio app.