next on c-span 3, rabbi

david dallin. hosted by the national archives, an hour and a half. >> upstairs in the rotunda, the original constitution of the united states, signed by the delegates to the constitutional convention in 1787 is on display and every day of the week thousands come to view it many of them bend down to examine the parchment through its glass protection. the constitution is the foundation of our government and the standard to which the supreme court of the united states looks when it decides the cases that come before it. the supreme court case files are preserved here at the national archives, as are opinions, docket books, minutes, attorney rules with the earliest records starting in 1790. we also have the audio

recordings of the supreme court and the majority are digitized and available online. we're working on a project to prepare these digital recordings for our online catalog and hope fof them available by september of this year. since its founding in 1934, the national archives has hosted supreme court justices in person as well as as in its records. some of the justices we will discuss tonight have had close connections with its agency in the 1950s, justice felix frankfurter served on the board of the national publications. followed by justices brennan, rehnquist, and souter. >> starting in 2012, the national archives launched a series of conversations with supreme court justices of the united states. including associate justices steven breyer, clarence thomas

and am jewel alito. yale law professor and constitutional scholar amar leads these discussions focusing on viewpoints related to the constitution and those are available on youtube or youstream. now let's get to tonight's program. so we can learn more about the supreme court justices, please welcome to the podium russell smith, president of the jewish historical society of greater washington. >> thank you, good evening, everyone and welcome. i am delighted on behalf of the jewish historical society and the board members present tonight to, to thank the national archives, especially susan clifton for partnering with us to commemorate jewish

american heritage month. we also want to thank the supreme court historical society and its staff for joining us in tonight's program and a special thank you to dr. arnold resnikof who first suggested that dr. dalen come to us as a speaker and help us connect with both dr. dalen and seth waxman what a pair for tonight. i want to welcome frank gilbert, a past president of the jewish historical society, who is also the grandson of justice lewis brande brandeis, the society is fortunate to have in our collection, justice brandeis's law school noteboork. the jewish historical society is planning a new lillian and albert small jewish museum in washington as part of the capital crossing development project a few blocks from here.

last november our historic 1876 synagogue was cut from its base and moved for the second time in its life, 50 feet into the middle of third street northwest where it's going to remain until the third and final move to the newly reopened corner of third and 23 streets northwest and there it will become the centerpiece of our brand-new museum complex. tonight's topic of jewish supreme court justices is one that we plan to make a key element in the museum's exhibition and programming. tonight i have the honor of introducing our participants and thereby fulfilling the society's mission of joining history, current events and the promise of the future. together to tell one of the many stories of jewish washington. dr. david dalin, historian and

rabbi, is the author, co-author or editor of 11 books, including religion and state in the american jewish experience, co-authored with one of our prior panelists, dr. jonathan sarna and the president of the united states and the jus. his articles and book reviews have appeared in a variety of publications, tonight dr. dalen will talk about his just published book, "jewish justices of the supreme court from brand toys kagan." in its first history of the eight jews who have served or currently serve, dr. dallin examines their lives and careers as well as the changing role of jews. dr. dallin will be joined in conversation with seth waxman, himself a distinguished leader

in the washington and national legal communities. mr. waxman served as the 41st solicitor general of the united states from 1997 until january 2001. after leaving government, mr. waxman taught both as a visiting fellow at harvard john f. kennedy's school of government and as a visiting professor at the georgetown university law center. mr. waxman has argued 33 cases before the supreme court. and has tried and argued dozens of other high-profile complex civil and criminal cases in federal and state courts across the country so now i'm sure after all that you're ready and i am, too, it's my pleasure to invite dr. dallin and seth waxman to the stage. gentlemen?

>> so good to be here. >> good evening. i'm seth waxman. this is the guest of honor and the author, david dallin. rabbi david dallin. we couldn't hear any of the introduction because we were being held in a secure location. but the reviews are terrific. it's already trending on twitter. before we start let me say i think i will, i have a four and a half hours worth of questions to ask you. but i'm going to limit myself to about 45 minutes, assuming i can keep track of time. open it up for audience questions. i always find these questions, people are here because they're interested. they have particular questions and we have a great font of knowledge. i'm told if you have a question

you should go to the aisles to the microphones, but i have to say that i don't see any microphones in the audience. >> anyway -- they will magically appear. so as you're thinking of questions, thinking about asking a question, once i open it up, in case i forget to tell you, please make your way to the mic because this program something broadcast in addition to the fact that either one or both of us will be able to hear you and your fellow attendees may not be able to hear people in the television audience also would like to hear what your question is. and i also want to make sure in case the previous speakers haven't already told you this, that there is a book signing immediately following the program and the author himself will be available to answer questions to sign books for you. so welcome. professor dallin and i met yesterday and we immediately

agreed on the convention that we would refer to each other by our first names so david let me just start by asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your own sort of professional journey. i know that you're an ordained rabbi and you're an author of many articles and books about american jewish political history. how did you get to, what's your story before picking up the pen to write this book. >> it's a great question. i want to thank you you, i'm honored to have you as my interlocutor for this conversation. most of my work is as an american jewish historian. i have my biggest field of interest is american jewish political history and biography.

>> the various presidents who have appointed jus to their cabinets and other offices and the relationship of the appointment process to the jewish community. i became tremendously interested with the whole subject of jewish appointees to the supreme court and their relationship also to the presidents that who appointed them, and also to their lives' legal careers and jewish personas, as well as and i many years ago i became fascinated with lewis brandeis and i attended brandeis university as did my daughter. and i began reading biographies of brandeis, and that led me to judicial biographies of several people and i gravitated more and more to the jewish justices, after you read the several

biographies of brandeis, cordozo or abe fortis, i thought it would be interesting, this book goes through the 2016 election. so this is as i think we said before, not only the first history of the jewish justices who have served in the past or who currently serve on the supreme court. but also a collective biography as it were of the jewish men and women who have served on the court. that's been an abiding interest for many, many years. i finally decided it was a choice between two things. i've also writ bn jews and baseball which could be a future work. i finally decided on the jewish justices as well. >> i'll be very happy to

interview about your forthcoming books about jews in baseball. jews in squash, jews in polo. >> probably the jews in squash will be a relatively small chapter. i would guess. >> well the ball is small. think without doing the research as an historian you could appreciate that there may be a lot of surprises right in the national archives. >> yes. god willing if this book comes i will come to the national archives. i know a lot of jus in baseball and a little bit about jus in basketball. precious little about jews in polo and squash. this will be an incentive. >> i think i actually have some information i can provide you about. >> this is great. >> i have to say that in talking to people about this event, and people asking about the event, one question that i get that i've gotten more frequently than

i guess i would have anticipated, this may be a generational thing. because it is mainly from colleagues and professional friends who are significantly younger than i am. so that everybody puts this in context, i'm 65, and so you can be significantly younger than i am and still have had a long, successful career in the law. one recurring question that i've gotten even from people in my generation, is there a reason to think about a group of justices, as jewish justices? and the answer obviously in your mind is yes. why don't you start by answering all of those questions that i've gotten. why write about jewish justices? is that a big deal? >> i'll tell you, it is. before justice brandeis was appointed in january of 1960, before that appointment.

it would have been, it was unimaginable that you would have a jewish justice on the court. in a minute of antisemitism of the rise and decline of profess things were different then and it would have been truly been unimaginable in brandeis's day that there would be not one, not two, but on the supreme court simultaneously and there would be a supreme court of two catholic justices and no protestant on the court which from 2010 when elena kagan succeeded, john paul stephens who was the last protestant until the appointment of gorsuch who is an episcopalian. this would have been unimaginable. in the same era, in the two decades that brandeis was on the court, you this the emergence of what became a catholic seat on

the court and eventually the african-american seat up on the court, and i think it's axiomatic that there would continue to be one or two women on the court. now this brings, if i can the whole question about how this came about, anti-semitism within the legal profession and is it okay to address this with brandeis or -- >> well, you decide whether to address it now. it's certainly something i want you to talk about. >> sure. sure. >> i was thinking that for those two or three people in the country who can't rattle off automatically two these, you know, sometimes mysterious eight jewish justices are, maybe it would help to set things off just by having you identify who they were and who they were nominated by and when they served and just a couple of

sentences. i'm going to -- time permitting, i'm going to ask you questions about each of them and what they're, as your subtitle says, your legacy is, but i guess we may have to continue this discussion until tomorrow afternoon. why don't we just start off by saying, we know louie brandeis was one. let's start with the eight and particularly the ones who have now passed away so that people in the audience understand that the sort of landscape of what we'll be talking about in address bein addressing, among other thing, the rise and fall or ascendancy and the fall of anti-semitism in the country and in the legal profession. >> wonderful. brandeis was appointed by woodrow wilson in january 1916. it became a major issue of controversy in the wilson

administration. he was facing a very tough re-election battle in the following november against charles evans hoous, the former governor of new york who actually resign his supreme court seat to run against wilson, and by the way, if anyone wants to know the stories that some are apocryphal and some not, charles went to sleep the night of the 1916 election thinking he'd won the election and wilson, assuming he'd lost and they both woke up to the change in realities. now, the brandeis nomination and senate confirmation battle went on for four months. it was arguably the most contentious senate confirmation battle until the battle of robert bork in 1987 and much of the controversy he to do, brandeis was considered one of the most progressive reformers.

he had been woodrow wilson's many economic adviser since wilson ran for election in 1912, and wilson was attorney general, but the avalanche of anti-semitic opposition foretold that, but wilson remained committed to appointing him and when he nominated him he persevered and stood by him and later on, maybe we can talk about the actual opposition that was most of the opposition was anti-semitic in nature and not because of his role of what was called the people's attorney, but it was -- and wilson had one advantage, by the way, that president trump did not have when he nominated merrick garland last year. probably most of you know that merrick garland would have been the ninth jewish justice on the court, but wilson had a democratic senate and there were several progressive republicans

who crossed party lines, so to speak to support brandeis, so that all helped. >> so let me just -- this is fascinating, but i want to make sure that in this introductory section we get through all eight. >> yes. >> just give us the real, bare bones, thumbnail sketch. >> real, bare bones, thumbnail sketch. >> he finally gets confirmed in 1916 and he serves until when? >> 23 years until 1939 and he succeeded. first of all, benjamin cardoza was appointed with him in 1932 by herbert hoover. seven of the eight jewish justices were appointed by democratic presidents, but hoover was, of course, the republican president. what's interesting is cardoza was not only a lifelong democrat, but it supported al smith against hoover publicly in the 1928 presidential election.

so hoover transcended party allegiance and just to conclude, cardoza was considered the preeminent american jurist and judge not serving on the supreme court and most historians and biographers and hoover didn't have the greatest presidency in american history and his appointment of cardoza is considered one of his truly great achievements as president. so cardozo dies and he had been ill when he came to washington after six years in the court in 1938 and -- >> we're going to come back to this, but i'm correct, am i not, that for a brief period of time cardozo, in an area of anti-semitism. >> yes. >> cardozo and brandeis served on the supreme court together. >> simultaneously for six years, and by the way, putting aside the other anti-semitism in that era, profoundly a viciously

anti-semitic justice, james mcreynolds. he had been outraged when brandeis was appointed. in fact, there's a famous photo of the supreme court in 1924 that lacks one justice. mcreynolds would not permit himself to be photographed near brandeis and he would -- when hoover, from mcreynolds vantage point, could address another jew, he wrote a scathing letter pleading with him not to afflict the court with another hebrew, and when brandeis retired in 1939 there's a tradition that members of the court all sign like a retirement letter which is framed for the retiring justice and mcreynolds refuseded to do so. so for six years, there were two jews on the court, when in 1939 when cardozo retired or

actually, he had passed away, right after his retirement, franklin delano roosevelt appointed his adviser felix frankfurter. for two weeks, frankfurter served on the court before he retired. >> briefly, frankfurther and fdr had met at a lunch in new york's harvard club in 1986 and they were both recent high school graduates from very different backgrounds, both very ambitious politically and their connection and friendship continued on again, off again for 33 years until fdr's appointment of frankfurter. >> okay. so we've got -- so far by my count we've had three and we've had one anti-jewish justice. we have mcreynolds out of the

way. >> yes. he retires in the 1940s. >> all right. i promise you, we're coming back to all of these people except mcreynolds. >> of course. of course. >> but who's next? >> next is -- >> so frankfurter passes away. >> frankfurter passes away in 19 -- actually, he retires in 1962 and passes away in 1965. he, interesting to note, all of the jewish justices were liberal justices by any definition. frankfurter had been a flaming liberal harvard law professor and attorney, but he became more and more conservative in his also 23 years on the court and when he resigned in 1962 he was the most conservative member of the court, and he became a prophet or advocate of judicial restraint. anyway, john f. kennedy then appoints arthur goldberg to

succeed frankfurt. arthur goldberg is the only one of the eight jewish justices to have served in the cabinet before. he was probably the best known labor negotiator in the country. he had negotiated the merger of the aflcio and president kennedy appointed him secretary of labor, and he served the shortest tenure, less than three years on the court because -- >> we're going to come back to this for sure. >> lbj persuaded him to live a lifetime position and he lived until 1991 to accept a position at the pleasure of the nation as ambassador of the united nations during which he had a falling out with lbj and he was out in two and a half years. >> so he's out and who's in? >> lbj's closest political adviser for many years, and if i

could just -- the genesis of their friendship, if i could do it in a minute or two. >> are we going to talk about landslide lyndon? >> landslide lyndon. >> this is great. this is a great story. 1948, fortis and lyndon johnson had met in the new deal. fortis, was a new-deal lawyer and was first in his class of the law school and couldn't get a job in the major law firm and he worked in the new deal and he got to know a young congressman from texas, lyndon johnson. 1948 in the election, the fight of his life time, johnson gave up a safe, congressional seat from texas. had he lost that race, we never would have heard of lyndon johnson. >> are we sure he didn't lose that race? >> well, i'll come back to that. in the book there is an argument that he did lose that race. for that, you'll have to read

the book. now it was such a close race after 1,560,000 votes cast or there about, it was sent to a blue ribbon committee washington attorneys to investigate and to check whether there was voter fraud, and we know there was a great deal of voter fraud. the person who had shared this committee and who argued the case at the supreme court in favor of lyndon johnson was a young up and coming attorney. and johnson never forgot this. throughout his years as majority leader of the senate in the 1960s and was vice president, and as vice president fortis was his closest adviser. he and his wife lady bird socializeded with aid fortis and his wife and he always, always wanted to promote, to reciprocate and do something for his friend abe and despite the fact that abe fortis didn't want

to, he would turn down an offer to be attorney general and then his wife helped him turn down which is a great story in the book that and also johnson's nudging him and pressuring him to do on the court. so he decided there was then a tradition of the jewish seat on the court so he basically, on the way invites fortis to a meeting about something else, and actually vietnam policy and he invites him to go out to the rose garden where he wants to just make some announcements of a press conference. on the way over there, much to fortis' anger and surprise, he tells him he's announcing his nomination to the supreme court. and by the way, arthur goldberg

had not yet officially accepted his invitation to the u.n. and basically, we can come back to it, he had to take a 90% salary cut. in the 1950s, he and his wife who were partners in the major law firm that bore fortis' name, and a combined income in the 1960s of $400,000 and his wife who you'll learn about in the book was a piece of work had 150 pairs of shoes in one closet. >> this is all really interesting. but unless i'm wrong abe fortis didn't serve very long on the supreme court and in any event we seem to be sort of stuck on the fifth justice. >> you want to -- >> i have a whole, like, book of questions to ask you, so -- >> and also -- >> and tomorrow afternoon i've got a flight to catch. so, okay.

so, anyway, we'll talk about afterwards what became the biggest scandal of the jewish justice. abe fortis resigned the court in 196. by the way, he sfserved a few months longer than arthur goldberg. richard nexton appointed harry blackmon to the court and it ended the tradition of a so-called jewish seat. now they would take 24 years before another jew would be appointed to the court. well, in the interim -- i'm trying to think who reagan nominated? >> many people. >> yes, many people, but after robert bork -- oh, another ginsburg. douglas ginsburg who had to withdraw his candidacy when it was revealed that he had smoked marijuana not only while a law student, but also while a law professor at harvard.

>> shocking no one, but scandalizing the establishment. >> and the reagan family and reagan's advisers. so you wait a few more years. in 1993 -- 4 bill clinton appoints ruth bader ginsburg to the court and a year later steven briar to the court and these were the two appointments bill clinton had. he appointed two jews. ruth bader -- none of these, they and elena kagan thereafter did not fake confront any anti-semitism either in their ascents to the legal careers to the court or their religion was almost not mentioned in the hearings at all, the confirmation hearings. ruth bader ginsburg, whom we can talk about later did face obstacles of being a woman in the male profession that was

predominantly male. when she entered law school in 19 56 she was the only one in the class of 500 and there's a lot to talk about here, and i don't want to get carried away now. the second woman after sandra day o'connor and the first jewish woman on the court. now, a year later steven briar who i am proud to say is a fellow longsman from san francisco. the only one to be on the court and the only san franciscan because old warren didn't live in san francisco, and he is appointed and both of them still serve on the court today. they're considered pretty much part of the liberal block on the court and ruth bader ginsburg who just turned 84 has now surpassed brandeis and frankfurter by a few months in terms of longevity of jewish

justices on the court. steven briar had a very interesting, just to say he served in the 1980s on leave of hafb art law school and both he and ruth bader ginsburg were known as voices of conviviality on the court. he was on the judiciary committee and able to get along famously with the late ted kennedy on the one hand, the leading democrat and orrin hatch on the other hand kennedy and on orrin hatch didn't agree on things and they agreed with steven briar when he was nominated on the last days of jimmy carter's administration to the finish and they came

together to finesse his nomination and 14 years later, anyone who can get along so wonderfully and closely with orrin hatch and ted kennedy must have been doing something right. >> drum roll for elena kagan. >> okay. elena kagan who was a graduate of princeton university and harvard law school and was also a marshal scholar at oxford university as was steven briar and started out working in the clinton administration on the domestic policy staff. she then became the first woman dean and the first jewish woman dean of harvard law school and then she followed the distinguished steps. >> if she was the first woman dean -- >> i was just going to say she followed in the great steps of

my interlocutor here. she became the next jewish solicitor general in 2009, and in this case the first woman solicitor general, and i guess the fourth jewish you told me and a year later, friday appointed me to the supreme court, and by the way they'll appoint, who were at 39 years and she was going on to 50 as neil gorsuch was, but that's -- >> that's the golden era to get nominated. >> that's right. >> in the current era. >> that's right. that's right. i've exhausted the litany, everybody if we have time that merrick garland -- and i think

you'll agree that a historian are talking about the cities of the sitting justices. >> i do have a question for you of writing their own process, and i'll focus a lot in my remaining 20 minutes before opening it up to the audience. >> oh, gosh. i guess that gives me 17 minutes to get to my concluding remarks. >> look, i want to ask you some things about some of these justices in particular and have you share with the audience and i don't know if you're learning about them, but i need to have you -- when we talk about these people as jewish justices, we are using the convention here that they were born to jewish mothers. >> yes. >> correct? >> that's all correct. >> to what extent are we talking about people for whom jewish observe ants, jewish spirituality and jewish belief was a significant appeared to

you to be a significant aspect of their lives up to the time that they served on the court and while they were serving on the court because you know, they're jewish, they have a jewish mother. a lot of people want to know and this is a leadup to the extent their jewish faith, their jewish beliefs and their cultural judaism may or may not have affected or influenced themselves as people and they they performed as judges. >> with the similar religious, justice guy osha, and lie the way, it was a talk of it being a

revival movement than a savior. >> it was a perennial guest that was george meany. >> rov george meany who regaled the sader dinner and audience with irish songs, irish folk songs and by the way, goldberg's wife dorothy regaled with yiddish songs. i'll come back because i have one interesting anecdote, but your question is well taken. there was not -- most of the jewish justices were want really practicing religious jews, and starting with brandeis, it's interesting. he came from a family who grew up in louisville, kentucky. his parents were german-speaking jews from prague. he was raised almost as a christian although both his parents were jewish. his mother said to admire the ethics of all religions and the rituals and observances of none,

and in their home they never celebrated the jewish sabbath or christmas and hanukkah, rather, but christmas and brandeis continued in this condition and if i can tell two very short and quick anecdotes as an example. hopefully short. >> we don't want to give away the whole book. >> maybe i'll tell you one of them rather than two. okay. brandeis was a prolific letter writer and there were many volumes of his letters. 1900 his two young daughters were on vacation in the days before christmas in new york visiting relatives and brandeis wrote a letter to them saying please don't worry. the christmas tree is set up and santa claus will be here to greet you. >> the other thing i fund out he will -- his cousin alfred a hand

from louisville. i wish there were these hand, we are overjoy here. we just received your hand today, et cetera. >> i want to the come back after we get done with the yiddish of all of the justice or at least the non-sitting justices. i want to get back to zionism. there is a very interesting story here. >> yeah. agree. >> but -- >> zionism. >> no. cardozo. cardo cardozo! >> he is lowed bay the -- and it may not ring a bell for most of you, but he was the only rabbi officiating at george washington's giving an

invocation and there were 14 clergy at his inauguration in 1790. the first jew was appointed to the board of governors at columbia university at the recommendation of alexander hamilton and not until benjamin cardozo would another jew be appointed to this. he came and one of his cousins was the -- what is it? the deputy mayor of new york and emma lazarus was the first cousin, et cetera. >> we know, this is an appropriate term for safartic jew. we know about his -- >> what about his beliefs and his practices? >> he, too, he belonged to what's called the spanish portuguese, and the oldest, and when he was in new york he

occasionally went on the high holidays. i mean, he always -- there was a seat that -- in his honor. he very rarely attended services there. he had his bar middle va thetzvd unlike brandeis who served, you know, food always, and cardozo would never serve a pork or shell fish in his home and by the way, he was a little taken aback who on his first invitation to the brandeis home when he came to washington that's what brandeis served, but he -- >> fair to say, it didn't auger well between the two on the court? >> i think that is an understatement. on the court or off the court, but he remained always when he died the memorial service was at

and the spanish portuguese, he remained a non-practicing orthodox jew. if and when he went to a synagogue it had to be an orthodox synagogue and his closest friend in the world was urban lehman of lehman brothers. the older worth of herbert lehman, the governor and senator from new york, and when brandeis and when cardozo died, and he and his wife sally in his last weeks and they were so shocked that they had the funeral because one of cardozo's other friends were stephen weis, one of the great zionist leaders in america and one of the preeminent rabbis in america, but stephen weiss was a reformed rabbi and the leaders of israel

would not permit him to officiate in any way or give a jewel ye and that shocked urban lehman who was a very committed, reformed jew, the president of temple emanuel and even his close friends didn't realize how orthodox a jew he really was because he never practiced his orthodox jew. >> born in the country, comes to the united states at the age of 12 not knowing one word of english. >> goes to yeshiva. >> in bed-stuy? >> at the age of 15, he decides judaism is want for him. he becomes a self-proclaimed agnostic, and he goes to city college and then at harvard law school where he's at the top of his class. by the way, i have the first

published photograph of him in his harvard law school dorm, but he wanted very much to become part of the protestant elite in the country. he married the daughter of a protestant minister. his mother did not attend the wedding. he never set foot in a temple or synagogue in his adult life except to give an occasional lecture, but here is the paradox. in his will to the surprise and shock even of his protestant wife and most of his friends, he asked that the traditional jewish prayer of mourning be recited at his funeral. >> by -- >> he specified, louis hanklin. he was not only a practicing orthodox jew, but the son of one of the preeminent orthodox jews in america. >> and a preeminent legal scholar who for 40 years was a

law professor at columbia university. you may know better, one of the great authorities on international law and he at one point had been a consultant to the state department and frankfurt had remained close to him and he was a friend who was a practicing orthodox jew. frankfurter was very jewish until 15 and casts it all off and is jewish again at his funeral and says to another friend shortly before his death. he said i was born jewish, most of my life i did not live as a jew, but i want to die as a jew. >> so much for jewish influence during his 23 years on the court. >> right. >> so we're up to -- >> we are up to -- >> justice goldberg. >> who was a, you know, did belong to a synagogue hads whole life. what else? >> he was an early zionist.

we'll come back to it. he and his wife were friends of golda meier and she was in milwaukee as teenagers in the zionist movement. he grew up in chicago, was first in his class at northwestern university, couldn't get a job in one of the big law firms and got a job in a small, what was then a small jewish law firm that founded by the two pritzker brothers. if this name sounds familiar, they're the pritzker family that ee eventually started the chain. >> can we get back to the spirituality? >> yes, yes, yes. >> i'm going to take my watch out to remind me. spirituality was interesting. he was a much more jewish jew than any of the other justices. >> sounds like it wasn't saying very much. >> it wasn't saying very much,

truly. >> i'll give you one example and one great anecdote. he didn't keep kosher, the dietary laws, but when he sponsored these great saders he would insist if any of his law clerks observed cashroot, he would all make them strictly kosher and one of the years alan dershowitz who many of you know of who has -- who was strictly an orthodox jew, so for this he had the best kosher caterer in washington, caterer was a very expensive kosher for sader and by the way, on his supreme court letterhead, he wrote out the goldberg family recipe for the traditional passover dish which was sent to the kosher caterer, a copy of which is one of the photos in my book, but spiritually, he was a jewish jew, and as was his wife, and i

wanted to -- one quick anecdote, cute anecdote, and it will be very quick, i hope. >> you know, it's five minutes to 8:00. on yiddish kite. >> on yiddish kite. he always told the story of visiting his -- while he was secretary of labor, and and his mother asks who is this, and it's president kennedy, so he answers the president, so she says the president knew of -- >> okay. just a word or two of the yitish kite of justice fortis and then i'll ask you to reflect again on my question of so why are we

talking about jewish justices, the extent, if any, to which, and i know you're not a lawyer or a legal scholar in your -- in your research you were able to discern any impact on the jurisprudence of these people. >> yeah. >> of the fact that they were at least born jewish. >> born jewish. okay. >> so fortis. >> fortis, like frankfurter, was born into an orthodox family, and grew up in memphis, tennessee, and he also pretty much cut his ties with orthodoxy in high school and continued to be really indifferent to anything in jewish practice and tradition and he was also his wife was not jewish and she was not particularly interested in judaism at all, and she continued in this -- pushed him

in that direction. he was the first in his class at yale law school. by the way, the same legend has it that while brandeis was first in his class scholastically at harvard and the scholastic average that has never been met since, they said the same thing about fortis. fortis was -- william douglas who later was on the court, he also couldn't get a job in a law firm, in a big city, blue chip law firm, blue shoe law firm and he went to work in the new deal. and, of course, that's where he meets lbj and he gets a new law firm in washington what is the first name? >> arnold ferguson porter which today is arnold porter which i made mention about at the end. his wife was a tax specialist who becomes a partner of the same firm and they have a

combined salary in the mid-1950s of over $400,000. he would have to take a 90% salary cap, i think, to join the court. >> was he going to shul? >> no. and his wife discouraged him tremendously in that area. although when he visited, they never had children. his jewish nephews and nieces in memphis, they told him about what it was like to live a jewish life which he knew very little about except for -- can i say one thing? he was very pro-israel. his closest friend in washington for many years was avrem harmon, the former israeli ambassador to the united states, later president of the university. >> some of his best friends were jewish. >> some of his best friends were jewish. you know, i should have put that in the book.

>> so maybe the answer to this question is obvious, that none of them, either they had no jewish upbringing as in the case of louis brandeis or they had a jewish upbringing which they forsook, largely in the case of the others. i wouldn't say that it's probably not fair to say about cardozo. he just became indifferent and observant, but unlike, you know, frankfurther or fortis which was just a categorical rejection, this is a disability of my birth that i'm going to try to evercome. >> in fact, he said it was an accidental birth. >> is it fair to say that it's hard to discern the effect of judaism on their jurisprudence? >> i think it is fair to say. i know mr. gilbert who is the

friend of justice brandeis is here. when his parents, i guess, when they had children and when justice brandeis in the late 20s and 30s had jewish grandchildren, then he began to write cards to them for rosh hashanah and hanukkah and that was the jewish influence in life, but no, i think it's face to say that their judaism had very little, if anything, little impact on their jurisprudence and their opinions even in the case of cardozo. and this -- the one thing it did do, which is a legacy of both brandeis and frankfurter. for the first time they appointed jewish law clerks and that became something. it wasn't out of religiousity and some of the law clerks were much more religious, but i think it's fair to say with possibly

one exception with frankfurter that it was negative, actually, that their jewishness or jewish background had no effect on the jurisprudence. >> one other exception, goldberg -- goldberg's jewish background did have some influence on his opinions. so, i think, you know, a couple of things -- a couple of things more about justice brandeis. >> yeah. you know, you talk about this in your book, but justice brandeis had an uncle with whom he was very close. >> yeah. >> close enough to take his middle name who was very, very observant. >> right. >> do you want to talk about that a little bit? >> his uncle's name was louis

dambetz. and he changed his name in honor of his uncle. he was one of the leaders of the orthodox jewish community. he was a jewish scholar or published a couple of books on the bible. he was an orthodox jew and brand ice recalled in his letters very memorably, and the only exposure to traditional shabbat dinners on a friday or saturday would be at his uncle's home and but he didn't emulate his uncle in this way. it was his uncle who inspired him to pursue a career in the law. now his uncle also was a fervent abolitionist and the this is interesting. his uncle named two of his sons abraham lincoln dembetz and henry clay dembetz. now, also his uncle was one of the founders of the republican party and that's the party of lincoln and the abolitionists in kentucky and was one of the

three people who put lincoln's name in nomination at the 1860 republican convention, but there was a very great closeness between the two and it was his uncle's religiosity and somehow it separated the two. >> so on the, you know, let's turn, you know, now for a few minutes to zionism because any biography, zionism is an important theme, i think, with the justices that we've been talking about. >> sure. sure. >> none more than louis brandeis who, of course, was the president of the american jewish zionist movement. >> today it's the zionist movement of america, yeah. >> and your book recounts and contemplated resigning his

supreme court seat in order to assume leadership of the world zionist organization. >> especially, this is the 100th anniversary of the balford declaration this november and he worked so assiduously on the court, by the way, which was an extra judicial which, i don't know if we'll have time to talk about -- activity, pushing and persuading t persuading wilson to accept the declaration. >> how do you explain someone who was raised in a resolutely secular family in kentucky. >> yeah. >> you know, the son of a descendant of the german-jewish immigration. >> right. right. >> living in a community very unlike the existence that frankfurter came out of and moved into in bedford stiees havant and the lower east side. when does he discover zionism

and what does zionism have to do with lewis brandeis's persona and beliefs? >> the first 50 years of his life he had no jewish connection at all. he lived in areas where there were no jewish neighbors. he had one or two jewish friends. the genesis of which i talk a lot in my book. he was invited to be one of the negotiators of the garment workers' strike in new york in 1910. for the first time in his life he met eastern european jews and found an affinity with them which he talks about. these were jews and his other jewish friends had always been very assimilated german jews and all of a sudden, he somehow, and it struck a cord with him, and these were yiddish speaking jews and he became interested from that experience in zionism, and some of the people he mentioned

there, henry moskowitz who later played a role in the senate confirmation battles who is a leading political figure in new york at the time and others who came from more traditional backgrounds and jacob dahaz who had been theodore herschel basically representative in the united states and they told him more and more about zionism and he was a profound zionist leader and recall an early zionist leader. so as time went on he began -- he was almost illiterate. he began to read more and more about judaism, and he began to find a tremendous link between zionism and americanism. and that was the key for him, and i forget -- i just wish i knew the exact phrase, but his

famous phrase at one point was tab a better american. please clue me in. >> to be a great american you first have to be a great jew and to be a great jew you first have to be a zionist. >> which is a perplexing set of -- >> to say the least. >> propositions and probably amazing to the vast majority of americans who not only don't feel need to be a great jew to be a american and don't need to become a great jew in any event. >> and like he did before and it created a lot of tension because so many jewish leaders didn't feel the same way, but once he became involved it became his passion. he also he brought some wealthy jewish friends like eugene

meyer, the financier and the founder of "the washington post" family and abraham filene and filene's basement and brought them into the zionist movement and benjamin cardozo and by the way, it should be noted, a footnote, benjamin cardozo officiated at felix frankfurter's wedding which is just a nice thing to know, but brandeis was a charismatic speaker and he barnstormed the country in support of zionism and he made zionism respectable amongst christians as well as jews. one -- >> i'm going to give you the hook because i need to ask you -- i need to ask you to tell us one thing about frankfurter and i'm giving myself the hook in two minutes so people in the

audience, get ready with your questions. >> i can pass around all of the unasked questions that i have if anybody flags, but frankfurter, let me just -- >> sure. >> just to summarize my understanding of it. >> while frankfurter in many ways was a protege of brandeis. very, very different as a personality. >> yes. >> very, very different in background, but was actually for many, many years actually paid by brandeis to write and publish as a very progressive, public intellectual and deputized by brandeis to get involved and promote the zionist movement and the book recounts a fascinating story in which frankfurter negotiates a letter from the then king of saudi arabia. >> yeah. >> saying that, you know, arabs

favor the balfour declaration and favor the creation of a jewish homeland for which frankfurter took an outsized amount of credit for whatever value it has, but, is it fair to say that frankfurter's devotion to zionism was more in the nature of an assignment? >> very much so. >> frankfurter was -- both brandeis and frankfurter and goldberg, your book recounts beautifully how unbelievably tied in they were to the presidents that appointed them and probably no one more profoundly and integrally as felix frankfurter, i mean, given the long scope of fdr's tenure. >> sure. you can say that probably nobody more profoundly who seemed to spend more time in the white house and the national security

council and actually in the supreme court to the point that his law clerks felt free to take naps in the supreme court because they were sure he wasn't going to show up. >> by the way, something i didn't know before this and it was abe fortis who drafted lbj's 1966 state of the union address. >> okay. there's no reason to think that felix frankfurther had an overwhelming degree of influence both over fdr and over frankfurter's own many proteges in the administration -- i'd just like, before we open it up to questions, i would just like to recount for us the episode you describe in connection with the yan carski and what he did in washington particularly with

respect to frankfurter because this is something i did not know and i find amazing. ian carski some of you may know of in georgetown in the later years and he was a representative of the polish government in exile. he had been -- he had realized in secret what was being done there and he told the emsear to tell the western world what was happening in the holocaust and he comes to the united states in the end of 1942 with the report that he wrote and his first-hand account of what was happening in the final solution. >> now, first he is told of the

polish ambassador of the united states. he tells jan carski you have to meet with frankfurter and jan carski tells him in documented detail about the horrors that he's witnessed first hand and about the nazi's war against the jews and after speaking for close to a half an hour, frankfurter gets up and he was always very formal and says sir, i cannot believe what you're saying and jan carski says, mr. justice, i wouldn't lie to you. >> no, no, you misunderstand me. he said i cannot believe that in my -- in this 20th century that something that you're saying is actually taking place and he turns his back on carski and walks out. carski and the polish ambassador

ask him to set up a meeting with fdr and frankfurter basically meets with fdr before and tells him that he himself cannot believe that something like this is taking place. now what's incredible about this, frankfurter never lobbies, fdr. and it might be expected that frankfurter would lobby the president on a whole host of issues including appointing some of his students to federal judge ships. in fact he had a several year-long campaign to appoint learned land to the supreme court. he used to call fdr at night, even. when it came to the holocaust, he did nothing. in fact, he had an elderly uncle who was his favorite uncle, solomon frankfurter who was arrested by the nazi police in austria in vienna, and was held in his 80s was held prisoner for

several days. one would have expected then frankfurther to go to the president and say, please, do something to help my uncle. my favorite uncle. he didn't. instead he went through an interesting connection, even more shocking with lady astrid in england who he knew was a friend. one last thing, he was a protege of henry stimson who was then the secretary of war or state? >> war. >> his neighbor and close friend was john mcloy the deputy secretary of war. he walked to work with john mcloyal midwest evealmost everyy and he was a war department official responsible for vetoing war department proposal to bomb auschwitz, the death camp and the railroads to them. he would see mccoy every day and talk to him. he never tried to persuade mccoy

to change that. >> this was at -- if i'm correct, this was at a point in time in which allied bombers were bombing the industrial sections of auschwitz. >> precisely. >> within five minutes of auschwitz, but the industrial section of auschwitz itself, it would have and this was in late 1950 with hungarian jews who were pushed to auschwitz, had they bombed the railroads to auschwitz and not the death camp it would have slowed up the nazi process of murder by many, many months, but mcloy successfully vetoed this and felix frankfurter, as far as we know never did a thing to try to dissuade him or his good friend henry stimson. >> okay. we're throwing it open to the audience and we have a member of the audience who has been

sitting patiently by the assigned microphone. sir, if you can identify yourself and let us know what your question is. >> i'm rashad thomas. i have two questions. my first question is did any of the justices encounter anti-semitism after they became supreme court justices, number one. and number two, is there something distinctive about their jewishness that contributed to by and large, their liberalism? i think most of the justices who have been jews on the court are left of center in their -- in the philosophy. does their jewishness play a role in that? >> the first question first which is easy. only brandeis and cardozo and the anti-semitism they faced while on the court was from the justice mcreynolds who was a vocal anti-semiite, but once they were secure on the court they didn't face it.

ruth bader ginsburg wrote about this attributing her support for social justice and for so many liberals and social and economic issues to her jewish background. in this article she said me and so many of my colleagues are descendants of rabbis and we've inculcated this and the problem is, that she's been more jewishly involved and many of the jewish justices, for example, like brandeis and -- brandeis and frankfurt, eaven i his early days didn't know enough about judaism to realize that their predisposition for social justice and for helping the poor, et cetera, was coming from a tradition they didn't

understand. they were all nominated by liberal democratic presidents with the exception of cardozo, but most attributed -- most people attributed, including ruth bader ginsburg has written about this that their liberalism came from their -- almost their dna. they were all descendant, want all, but most were descendant from very strongly religious families and by the way, a footnote on ruth bader ginsburg, at the age of 15, i have a photo in the book, she was the camp rabbi and she was known as that at her summer camp in the adirondacks.book, she was the cd she was known as that at her summer camp in the adirondacks. rabbi and she was known as that at her summer camp in the adirondacks. >> thank you very much for your words today. i am a college student in the washington, d.c. area. my name is nathan weissler. >> nathan, hi. >> i've been interested in jewish history for several

years, actually, since i was in elementary school and your book is one of the most meaningful books that i've read in a long time. i've read it cover to cover. >> thank you so much. >> you're very welcome. my question is -- throughout your research, what did you find most interesting about learning about justice goldberg's efforts to an advocacy for ending the death penalty and what do you think -- >> that's interesting and that may be derivative of his jewish background. arthur goldberg with the assistance of alan dershowitz, his law clerk at the time, he went on a campaign, and he tried to get a campaign going to render the death penalty unconstitutional. the problem was -- had he not resigned from the court, when he did, he might not have achieved

this himself by the time the first death penalty cases came out and some of them were -- it was really attacking the constitutionality of the death penalty death penalty. it was in the 1970s when he had and that i would say was one area where his -- and he was probably the most knowledgeable in terms of jewish religious tradition and that came, i think from his jewish, his understanding of what then was not called kukunolum, jewish

values. >> thank you. sir? >> my name is shala gillman. i beg to disagree with you slightly. louis's bran dies's family lived within walkings distance and the entire jewish community lived in a central area of louisville which was very open at that time to german jews and especially polish jews. when i study the talmud and i perceived the obligations of the jews to the treatment of the employe employees to the treatment of the relationship of other people, and i read the decision as to justice brandice and when i looked at justice cardozo, not

necessarily when he was on the supreme court but when i looked at his decisions on the court of appeals of new york and i see the salmon versus mylan case, what is it, the pontillius requirement of honor among partners and the relationship of partners and -- your comment? >> i think, definitely there is a relationship in the case of cardozo who did inculcate a significant understanding of jewish tradition.

talmuddic precedence and tradition. brandice didn't have that. i am not sure if one can draw a connection between his decisions in those areas and his maybe, they had been inculcated sub consciously, but he did not have the knowledge or understanding of jewish teaching, and biblical teachings, that for example cardozo did. he had the jewish knowledge. so that would be the only thing that i would say, but brandice did, on those decisions. and he was one of the leading progressive voices in america at

that point. >> and brandice's name stays alive with the university of louisville law school. >> okay. we have one from the left, and now we get one from the right. >> i am the class of 1985 brandice university as well. actually, i am on my way after to this venue to another venue to beat my brandice -- but that's a different discussion. maybe you can write a book about -- but anyway, my question is as follows. president wilson, there was

actually a forum, a program put together, shown some time ago by the famous author, name escapes me right now. it was a three part series about world war i and it focused a lot about wilson and it had emphasis on unfortunately some aspects of his racism, anti-semitism and small mindedness on how he approached them. and a lot of his upbringings on that part. the first part is is what really drove him from everything you learned about that to move beyond that way that he thought, it was exemplified in the show about why he was so emphatic

about 14 points. it was unfortunate. but it allowed brandice to become the supreme court justice. what jurors prudence did they add in the area of causation in torts that is famous today. >> i may defer to my legal colleague here or to my son in the audience. he is a law student. and a brilliant one i would say. >> i think it is fair to say that it would be more challenging to pick somebody here without legal change than with legal training. >> but let me answer the other question. one of the ironies is that we know now that woodrow wilson was a racist. he introduced segregation into

the capitol. when he was the president of -- and in addition besides brandice, who he was stuck with, he appointed several jews to one of his close advisers -- the brain child of one of the walbergs and he had many jewish advisers, so no record of him being anti semitic. there was an effort now to take off the woodrow name from the woodrow school, et cetera.

and that would be my answer. and it seems to be a paradox that he was really not anti semitic from any record that we have, but he was certainly a southern racist. >> yeah. thank you. >> okay. last question from the left -- >> my friend. >> you talked a lot about harvard. >> i am tevi troy. we now that all the supreme court justices graduated from harvard, yale. can you talk about the role of the elite law schools. >> what is interesting of course, you know, the only thing, i just mentioned merrick garland, his relijion was not

mentioned at all. brandice harvard cardoza went to harvard. fortus went to yale. ruth bader ginsburg went to harvard and columbia. she followed her husband. she went to columbia and she is one of the few people in history who were on two law reviews.

steven briar went to stanford as an under graduate. elena kagan went to princeton and harvard law school. a part of the, it was -- and then they went from, they want

to these prestigious law schools. and so it was part of the greater acceptance in the law school that helped the change -- helped bring about a decrease of anti-semetism in the legal profession. to end this on what's very interesting, when brandice's daughter and gilbert's mother graduated at the top of the class, brandice was very interested and she had hoped, at least the story i'm told, to go to harvard, yale, columbia. in 1917 there were no women admitted. they would love to admit her but it would be another ten years before they would admit women. she went to not a bad law school, university of chicago where she met her husband, another law student, but i think

it's what she said as the decline of -- there was a gradual decline of anti-semetism in the american legal system. it was fostered by so many of he's lawyers that were either immigrants themselves or apparenparents of immigrants. and doing well there. >> thank you all very much. you have been a great audience. [ applause ] >> tonight, on american history

tv on c-span 3, we take a look at brown versus the board of education in topeka, kansas. the case that struck down public segregation in schools. all persons having business before the honorable supreme court give their attention. >> "landmark cases," cspan's special segment exploring the human stories and constitutional dramas behind 12 historic supreme court decisions. >> number 759, ernest versus arizona. >> roe versus wade.