and lawyers who were key to the supreme court's review. next on american history tv on c-span 3, rabbi david dalin on the eight jewish justices who have served on the nation's highest court since 1916. hosted by the national archives, this is an hour and a half. >> upstairs in the rotunda the original constitution of the united states signed by the delegates to the constitutional convention in 1787 is on display and every day of the week thousands of people come to view it. many of them bend down to examine the parchment through its glass protection, some trying to read the 18th century script. the constitution is the foundation of our government and it is the standard to which the supreme court of the united states looks when it decides the cases that come before it. the many supreme court case files both appellate and

original jurisdiction are preserved here at the national archives as are opinions, docket books, minutes, attorney rolls with our earliest records starting in 1790. we also have the audio recordings of the supreme court and the majority have been digitized and available online. we are working on a project to prepare all of these digital recordings for our online catalog and we hope to have them available by september of this year. since its founding in 1934 the national archives has hosted supreme court justices in person as well as in its records. in some of the justices we will discuss tonight have had close connections with this agency. in the 1950s justice felix frankfurter served on the board of the national historical publications and records commission, followed by justice brendan, rehnquist, blackman and associater. in the 1960s justice goldberg served on the archivist advisory

council. the archives launched a series of conversations with supreme court justices of the united states including associate justic justices stephen breyer, thomas and alito. yale law frefr and constitutional scholar ramar leads these discussions focused on issues related to the constitution and their impact on the american people. those are available on youtube or you stream. now let's get to tonight's program. so we can learn more about these supreme court justices. please welcome to the podium russell smith president of the jewish historical society of greater washington. [ applause ] >> thank you. good evening, everyone and welcome. i am delighted on behalf of the jewish historical society and the board members who are

present tonight to thank the national archives, especially sue tan clifton for partnering with us for this annual program to commemorate jewish american heritage month. we also want to thank the supreme court historical society and its staff for joining us in tonight's program and a special thank you to dr. resnikoff a long time friend who first suggested that dr. dalin come to us as a speaker and helped us connect with both dr. dalin and seth waxman. what a pair for tonight. i want to welcome frank gilbert, a past president of the jewish historical society who is also the grandson of justice lewis brandeis. thanks to frank's generosity the society is fortunate to have in our collection justice brandeis' law school notebook and a beautiful oil portrait. as many of you may know, the

jewish historical society is planning a new lillian and albert small jewish museum in washington as part of the capitol crossing development project which is a few blocks from here. last november our historic 1876 synagogue was cut from its base and moved for the second time in its life 50 feet into the middle of third street northwest where it's going to remain until the third and final move to the newly reopened corner of 3rd and f streets northwest and there it will become the centerpiece of our brand new museum complex. tonight's topic of jewish supreme court justices is one that we plan to make a key element in the museum's exhibition and programming. tonight i have the honor of introducing our participants and thereby fulfilling the society's mission of joining history,

current events and the promise of the future, together to tell one of the many stories of jewish washington. dr. david dalin, historian and rabbi, is the author, co-author or editor of 11 books, including "religion and state in the american jewish experience" co-authored with one of our prior panelists dr. jonathan sarna and "the presidents of the situates and the jews." his articles and book reviews have appeared in a variety of publications. tonight dr. dalin will talk about his just published book which many of you have in your hands "jewish justices of the supreme court from brandeis to kagan" which has already received excellent reviews since its release in april. in this first history of the eight jews who have served or currently serve on the u.s. supreme court dr.en examines their lives and legal careers as

well as the changing role of jews within the american legal profession. dr. dalin will be joined in conversation with seth waxman who is himself a distinguished leader in the washington and national legal community. mr. waxman served as the 41st solicitor general of the united states from 1997 until january 2001. after leaving government mr. waxman taught both as a visiting fellow at harvard university's john f. kennedy school of government and as a visiting professor at the georgetown university law center. mr. waxman has argued 33 cases before the supreme court and has tried and argued dozens of high profile complex civil and criminal cases in federal and state courts across the country. so now i'm sure after all that you're ready and i am, too, it's my pleasure to invite dr. dalin

and seth waxman to the stage. gentlemen. [ applause ] >> this is a pleasure. >> it's so good to be here. >> good evening. i'm seth waxman, this is the guest of honor and the author, david dalin, rabbi david dalin. we couldn't hear any of the introduction because we were being held in a secure location. >> it was great. >> good. >> but the reviews are terrific. it's already tending on twitter. before we start let me just say i think i will -- i have about four and a half hours worth of questions to ask you. >> oh, good. >> but i'm going to limit myself to about 45 minutes and then -- >> sounds good. >> -- assuming i can keep track of time which i'm not very good

at open it up for audience because i always find these things people are here because they're interested, they have particular questions and we have a great font of knowledge. i'm told that if you have a question you should go to the aisles to the microphones, but i have to say that i don't see any microphon microphones. oh, okay. >> okay. >> anyway, they will magically appear. as you're thinking of questions and thinking about asking a question once i open it up in case i forget to tell you, please make your way to the mike because this program is being broadcast and in addition to the packet that either one or both of us won't be able to hear you and your fellow attendees may not be able to hear, people in the television audience also would like to hear what your question is. and i also want to make sure in case the previous speakers haven't already told you this that there is a book signing immediately following the program and the author himself

will be available to answer questions and sign books for you. so welcome. so we've -- professor dalin and i met yesterday and we immediately agreed on the convention that we would refer to each other by our first names. so, david, let me just start by asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your own sort of professional journey. i know that you are an ordained rabbi and you are an author of many articles and books about american jewish political history. >> yeah. >> how did you get to -- you know, what's your story before picking up the pen to write this book? >> well, seth, that's a great question. i also want to thank you, i'm honored to have you as my interlock tour for this conversation. i am actually an ordained rabbi, but most of my work is as an american jewish historian and i have -- my biggest field of interest is american jewish

political history and biography and i've co-authored a book before on the president of the united states of the jews and i've written major articles not only about jews in the presidency but the presidential appointment process and the various presidents who have appointed jews to the cabinets and to other offices and the relationship of this appointment process to the jewish community and through that i got -- i became tremendously interested with the whole subject of jewish appointees to the supreme court and their relationship also to the presidents who appointed them and also to their lives, legal careers and jewish personas as well. and i -- many years ago i became fascinated with brandeis, lewis d. brandeis and of course i attended brandeis university as did my daughter and i began

reading biographies of brandeis and that led me into judicial biographies of several people and i gravitated more and more to the jewish justices. after you read the several biographies of brandeis, of cordoza, frankfurter, even two or three of abe fortis, there had never been a book bringing it up to the president and this book actually goes through the 2016 election. so this is as i think was said before not only the first history of the jewish justices who have served in the past or who currently serve on the supreme court, but also a collective biography as it were of the jewish men and women who have served on the court. and that's been an abiding interest for many, many years and it finally -- i finally decided it was a choice between two things, i've also written about jews in baseball, which

could be a future book, but i finally decided on the jewish justices instead. >> well, i will be very happy to come interview you about your forthcoming jews in baseball. >> that's a deal. >> jews in squash, jews in polo, whatever it is that you choose to -- >> and those are two areas i hadn't even thought about. probably the jews in squash will be a relatively small chapter i would guess. >> well, the ball is small but i think without doing the research as a historian i'm sure you appreciate that there may be a lot of surprises here right in the national archives. >> right here. in fact, yes, i -- in fact, god willing if this book comes i will come to the national archives because i know a lot about jews in baseball, a little bit about jews in basketball, but precious little about jews in polo and squash. so this will be an incentive and i will e-mail you immediately as soon as i begin work on this. >> terrific, because i think i actually have some information i can provide you about this. >> this is great.

>> so, you know, i have to say that, you know, in talking to people about this event and people asking about the event, one question that i got that i've gotten more frequently than i guess i would have anticipated, and this may be a generational thing because it is mainly from colleagues and professional friends who are significantly younger than i am, just so that everybody puts this in context, i'm 65, so you can be significantly younger than i am and still have had a long successful career in the law, but one question -- one recurring question that i've gotten, even from people in my generation, is like is there a reason to think about a group of justices as jewish justices? >> yeah. >> and the answer obviously in your mind is yes. >> yes. >> so why don't you start by answering all those questions that i've gotten. like why write about jewish

justices? is it a big deal. >> well, it is. i will tell you why. before justice brandeis was appointed in january of 1960, before that appointment it would have been -- it was unimaginable that you would have a jewish justice on the court. i want to come back to the question in a minute of anti-semitism, the rise and then decline of anti-semitism in the american legal profession, but so many things were different then. it would have truly been unimaginable in brandeis' day that there would be not one, not two, but three jews on the supreme court simultaneously and as much so that there would be a supreme court of six catholic justices and three jewish justices and no protestants on the court, which from 2010 answer elena kagan succeeded john paul stevens who was the last protestant until the appointment now of kneel gorsuch who is an a miss can a palian,

you know, but this kind of thing would have been unimaginable. in the same era you had in the two decades that brandeis was on the court you had the emergence of what became a catholic seat on the court, what became a catholic seat on the court and eventually the african-american seat up on the court. and now there are three women on the court and i think it's taken as axiomatic that there would continue to be one or two women on the court. now this brings, if i can, the whole question about how this came about, anti-semitism within the legal profession and is it okay to address this with brandeis or -- >> well on i'm going to ask you -- you decide whether to address it now. it's certainly something i want you to talk about. >> sure. sure. >> i was thinking that for those two or three people in the country who can't rattle off

automatically who these, you know, sometimes mysterious eight jewish justices are, maybe it would help to set things off just by having you identify who they were, who they were nominated by and when they served and just a couple of sentences. i'm going to, time permitting, ask you questions about each of them and what they're, as your subtitle says, your legacy is, but i guess we may have to continue this discussion until tomorrow afternoon. why don't we just start off by saying, we know louie brandeis was the first one. let's go through the eight, particularly the ones that have now passed away, so that people in the audience understand the sort of landscape of what we're going to be talking about, in addressing, among other things, the rise and fall or

ascendancy and the fall of anti-semitism in the country and in the legal profession. >> wonderful. brandeis was appointed by woodrow wilson in january 1916. it became a major issue of controversy in the wilson administration. he was facing a very tough re-election battle in the following november against charles evans hoous, the former governor of new york who actually resigned his supreme court seat to run against wilson. and by the way, if anyone wants to know the stories that some are apocryphal and some not, charles went to sleep the night of the 1916 election thinking he'd won the election and wilson, assuming he'd lost, and they both woke up to the change in realities. now, the brandeis nomination and senate confirmation battle went on for four months. it was arguably the most contentious senate confirmation battle until the battle of

robert bork in 1987. and much of the controversy he to do, brandeis was considered one of the most progressive reformers. he had been woodrow wilson's many economic adviser since wilson ran for election in 1912, and wilson was attorney general, but the avalanche of anti-semitic opposition foretold that, but wilson remained committed to appointing him and when he nominated him he persevered and stood by him and later on, maybe we can talk about the actual opposition that was most of the opposition was anti-semitic in nature and not because of his role of what was

called the people's attorney, but it was -- and wilson had one advantage, by the way, that president trump did not have when he nominated merrick garland last year. probably most of you know that merrick garland would have been the ninth jewish justice on the court, but wilson had a democratic senate and there were several progressive republicans who crossed party lines, so to speak to support brandeis, so that all helped. >> so let me just -- this is fascinating, but i want to make sure that in this introductory section we get through all eight. >> yes. >> just give us the real, bare bones, thumbnail sketch. >> real, bare bones, thumbnail sketch. >> he finally gets confirmed in 1916 and he serves until when? >> 23 years until 1939 and he

succeeded. first of all, benjamin cardoza was appointed with him in 1932 by herbert hoover. seven of the eight jewish justices were appointed by democratic presidents, but hoover was, of course, the republican president. what's interesting is cardoza was not only a lifelong democrat, but it supported al smith against hoover publicly in the 1928 presidential election. so hoover transcended party allegiance and just to conclude, cardoza was considered the preeminent american jurist and judge not serving on the supreme court and most historians and biographers and hoover didn't have the greatest presidency in american history and his appointment of cardoza is considered one of his truly great achievements as president. so cardozo dies and he had been ill when he came to washington after six years in the court in 1938 and -- >> we're going to come back to this, but i'm correct, am i not, that for a brief period of time

cardozo, in an area of anti-semitism. >> yes. >> cardozo and brandeis served on the supreme court together. >> simultaneously for six years, and by the way, putting aside the other anti-semitism in that era, profoundly a viciously anti-semitic justice, james mcreynolds. he had been outraged when brandeis was appointed. in fact, there's a famous photo of the supreme court in 1924 that lacks one justice. mcreynolds would not permit himself to be photographed near brandeis and he would -- when hoover, from mcreynolds vantage point, could address another jew, he wrote a scathing letter pleading with him not to afflict the court with another hebrew, and when brandeis retired in 1939 there's a tradition that members of the court all sign like a retirement letter which is framed for the retiring justice and mcreynolds refuseded to do so. so for six years, there were two jews on the court, when in 1939 when cardozo retired or actually, he had passed away, right after his retirement,

franklin delano roosevelt appointed his adviser felix frankfurter. for two weeks, frankfurter served on the court before he retired. >> briefly, frankfurther and fdr had met at a lunch in new york's harvard club in 1986 and they were both recent high school graduates from very different backgrounds, both very ambitious politically and their connection and friendship continued on >> briefly, frankfurther and fdr had met at a lunch in new york's harvard club in 1906 and they were both recent high school graduates from very different backgrounds, both very ambitious

politically and their connection and friendship continued on again, off again for 33 years until fdr's appointment of frankfurter. >> okay. so we've got -- so far by my count we've had three and we've had one anti-jewish justice. we have mcreynolds out of the way. >> yes. he retires in the 1940s. >> all right. i promise you, we're coming back to all of these people except mcreynolds. >> of course. of course. >> but who's next? >> next is -- >> so frankfurter passes away. >> frankfurter passes away in 19 -- actually, he retires in 1962 and passes away in 1965. he, interesting to note, all of the jewish justices were liberal justices by any definition.

frankfurter had been a flaming liberal harvard law professor and attorney, but he became more and more conservative in his also 23 years on the court and when he resigned in 1962 he was the most conservative member of the court, and he became a prophet or advocate of judicial restraint. anyway, john f. kennedy then appoints arthur goldberg to succeed frankfurt. arthur goldberg is the only one of the eight jewish justices to have served in the cabinet before. he was probably the best known labor negotiator in the country. he had negotiated the merger of the aflcio and president kennedy appointed him secretary of labor, and he served the shortest tenure, less than three years on the court because -- >> we're going to come back to this for sure. >> lbj persuaded him to live a lifetime position and he lived until 1991 to accept a position

at the pleasure of the nation as ambassador of the united nations during which he had a falling out with lbj and he was out in two and a half years. >> so he's out and who's in? >> lbj's closest political adviser for many years, and if i could just -- the genesis of their friendship, if i could do it in a minute or two. >> are we going to talk about landslide lyndon? >> landslide lyndon. >> this is great. this is a great story. 1948, fortis and lyndon johnson had met in the new deal. fortis, was a new-deal lawyer and was first in his class of the law school and couldn't get a job in the major law firm and he worked in the new deal and he got to know a young congressman

from texas, lyndon johnson. 1948 in the election, the fight of his life time, johnson gave up a safe, congressional seat from texas. had he lost that race, we never would have heard of lyndon johnson. >> are we sure he didn't lose that race? >> well, i'll come back to that. in the book there is an argument that he did lose that race. for that, you'll have to read the book. now it was such a close race after 1,560,000 votes cast or there about, it was sent to a blue ribbon committee washington attorneys to investigate and to check whether there was voter fraud, and we know there was a great deal of voter fraud. the person who had shared this committee and who argued the case at the supreme court in favor of lyndon johnson was a young up and coming attorney. and johnson never forgot this. throughout his years as majority leader of the senate in the

1960s and was vice president, and as vice president fortis was his closest adviser. he and his wife lady bird socializeded with aid fortis and his wife and he always, always wanted to promote, to reciprocate and do something for his friend abe and despite the fact that abe fortis didn't want to, he would turn down an offer to be attorney general and then his wife helped him turn down which is a great story in the book that and also johnson's nudging him and pressuring him to do on the court. so he decided there was then a tradition of the jewish seat on the court so he basically, on the way invites fortis to a meeting about something else, and actually vietnam policy and he invites him to go out to the rose garden where he wants to just make some announcements of

a press conference. on the way over there, much to fortis' anger and surprise, he tells him he's announcing his nomination to the supreme court. and by the way, arthur goldberg had not yet officially accepted his invitation to the u.n. and basically, we can come back to it, he had to take a 90% salary cut. in the 1950s, he and his wife who were partners in the major law firm that bore fortis' name, and a combined income in the 1960s of $400,000 and his wife who you'll learn about in the book was a piece of work had 150 pairs of shoes in one closet. >> this is all really

interesting. but unless i'm wrong abe fortis didn't serve very long on the supreme court and in any event we seem to be sort of stuck on the fifth justice. >> you want to -- >> i have a whole, like, book of questions to ask you, so -- >> and also -- >> and tomorrow afternoon i've got a flight to catch. so, okay. so, anyway, we'll talk about afterwards what became the biggest scandal of the jewish justice. abe fortis resigned the court in 196. by the way, he served a few months longer than arthur goldberg. richard nexton appointed harry blackmon to the court and it ended the tradition of a so-called jewish seat. now they would take 24 years before another jew would be

appointed to the court. well, in the interim -- i'm trying to think who reagan nominated? >> many people. >> yes, many people, but after robert bork -- oh, another ginsburg. douglas ginsburg who had to withdraw his candidacy when it was revealed that he had smoked marijuana not only while a law student, but also while a law professor at harvard. >> shocking no one, but scandalizing the establishment. >> and the reagan family and reagan's advisers. so you wait a few more years. in 1993 -- 4 bill clinton appoints ruth bader ginsburg to the court and a year later steven briar to the court and these were the two appointments bill clinton had. he appointed two jews. ruth bader -- none of these, they and elena kagan thereafter did not fake confront any anti-semitism either in their assents to the legal careers to

the court or their religion was almost not mentioned in the hearings at all, the confirmation hearings. ruth bader ginsburg, whom we can talk about later did face obstacles of being a woman in the male profession that was predominantly male. when she entered law school in 19 56 she was the only one in the class of 500 and there's a lot to talk about here, and i don't want to get carried away now. the second woman after sandra day o'connor and the first jewish woman on the court. now, a year later steven briar who i am proud to say is a fellow longsman from san francisco. the only one to be on the court and the only san franciscan because old warren didn't live in san francisco, and he is

appointed and both of them still serve on the court today. they're considered pretty much part of the liberal block on the court and ruth bader ginsburg who just turned 84 has now surpassed brandeis and frankfurter by a few months in terms of longevity of jewish justices on the court. steven briar had a very interesting, just to say he served in the 1980s on leave of hafb art law school and both he and ruth bader ginsburg were known as voices of conviviality on the court. he was on the judiciary committee and able to get along famously with the late ted kennedy on the one hand, the leading democrat and orrin hatch on the other hand kennedy and on

orrin hatch didn't agree on things and they agreed with steven briar when he was nominated on the last days of jimmy carter's administration to the finish and they came together to finesse his nomination and 14 years later, anyone who can get along so wonderfully and closely with orrin hatch and ted kennedy must have been doing something right. >> drum roll for elena kagan. >> okay. elena kagan who was a graduate of princeton university and harvard law school and was also a marshal scholar at oxford university as was steven briar and started out working in the clinton administration on the domestic policy staff. she then became the first woman dean and the first jewish woman

dean of harvard law school and then she followed the distinguished steps. >> if she was the first woman dean -- >> i was just going to say she followed in the great steps of my interlocutor here. she became the next jewish solicitor general in 2009, and in this case the first woman solicitor general, and i guess the fourth jewish you told me and a year later, friday appointed me to the supreme court, and by the way they'll appoint, who were at 39 years and she was going on to 50 as neil gorsuch was, but that's -- >> that's the golden era to get nominated. >> that's right.

>> in the current era. >> that's right. that's right. i've exhausted the litany, everybody if we have time that merrick garland -- and i think you'll agree that a historian are talking about the cities of the sitting justices. >> i do have a question for you of writing their own process, and i'll focus a lot in my remaining 20 minutes before opening it up to the audience. >> oh, gosh. i guess that gives me 17 minutes to get to my concluding remarks. >> look, i want to ask you some things about some of these justices in particular and have you share with the audience and

i don't know if you're learning about them, but i need to have you -- when we talk about these people as jewish justices, we are using the convention here that they were born to jewish mothers. >> yes. >> correct? >> that's all correct. >> to what extent are we talking about people for whom jewish observance, jewish spirituality and jewish belief was a significant appeared to you to be a significant aspect of their lives up to the time that they served on the court and while they were serving on the court because you know, they're jewish, they have a jewish mother. a lot of people want to know and

this is a leadup to the extent their jewish faith, their jewish beliefs and their cultural judaism may or may not have affected or influenced themselves as people and they they performed as judges. >> with the similar religious, justice guy osha, and lie the way, it was a talk of it being a revival movement than a sader. >> it was a perennial guest that was george meany. >> rov george meany who regaled the sader dinner and audience with irish songs, irish folk songs and by the way, goldberg's wife dorothy regaled with yiddish songs. i'll come back because i have one interesting anecdote, but your question is well taken. there was not -- most of the jewish justices were want really practicing religious jews, and starting with brandeis, it's

interesting. he came from a family who grew up in louisville, kentucky. his parents were german-speaking jews from prague. he was raised almost as a christian although both his parents were jewish. his mother said to admire the ethics of all religions and the rituals and observances of none, and in their home they never celebrated the jewish sabbath or christmas and hanukkah, rather, but christmas and brandeis continued in this condition and if i can tell two very short and quick anecdotes as an example. hopefully short. >> we don't want to give away the whole book. >> maybe i'll tell you one of them rather than two. okay. brandeis was a prolific letter writer and there were many volumes of his letters. 1900 his two young daughters

were on vacation in the days before christmas in new york visiting relatives and brandeis wrote a letter to them saying please don't worry. the christmas tree is set up and santa claus will be here to greet you. >> the other thing i fund out he will -- his cousin alfred a hand from louisville. i wish there were these hand, we are overjoy here. we just received your hand today, et cetera. >> i want to the come back after we get done with the yiddish of all of the justice or at least the non-sitting justices. i want to get back to zionism. there is a very interesting story here. >> yeah. agree.

>> but -- >> zionism. >> no. cardozo. cardozo! >> he is lowed bay the -- and it may not ring a bell for most of you, but he was the only rabbi officiating at george washington's giving an invocation and there were 14 clergy at his inauguration in 1790. the first jew was appointed to the board of governors at columbia university at the recommendation of alexander hamilton and not until benjamin cardozo would another jew be appointed to this. he came and one of his cousins was the -- what is it? the deputy mayor of new york and emma lazarus was the first cousin, et cetera. >> we know, this is an appropriate term for safartic

jew. we know about his -- >> what about his beliefs and his practices? >> he, too, he belonged to what's called the spanish portuguese, and the oldest, and when he was in new york he occasionally went on the high holidays. i mean, he always -- there was a seat that -- in his honor. he very rarely attended services there. he had his bar mitzvah there and unlike brandeis who served, you know, food always, and cardozo would never serve a pork or shell fish in his home and by the way, he was a little taken aback who on his first invitation to the brandeis home when he came to washington that's what brandeis served, but he -- >> fair to say, it didn't auger well between the two on the

court? >> i think that is an understatement. on the court or off the court, but he remained always when he died the memorial service was at and the spanish portuguese, he remained a non-practicing orthodox jew. if and when he went to a synagogue it had to be an orthodox synagogue and his closest friend in the world was urban lehman of lehman brothers. the older worth of herbert lehman, the governor and senator from new york, and when brandeis and when cardozo died, and he and his wife sally in his last weeks and they were so shocked that they had the funeral because one of cardozo's other friends were stephen weis, one of the great zionist leaders in america and one of the preeminent rabbis in america, but stephen weiss was a reformed

rabbi and the leaders of israel would not permit him to officiate in any way or give a jewel ye and that shocked urban lehman who was a very committed, reformed jew, the president of temple emanuel and even his close friends didn't realize how orthodox a jew he really was because he never practiced his orthodox jew. >> born in the country, comes to the united states at the age of 12 not knowing one word of english. >> goes to yeshiva. >> in bed-stuy? >> at the age of 15, he decides judaism is want for him. he becomes a self-proclaimed agnostic, and he goes to city college and then at harvard law school where he's at the top of his class.

by the way, i have the first published photograph of him in his harvard law school dorm, but he wanted very much to become part of the protestant elite in the country. he married the daughter of a protestant minister. his mother did not attend the wedding. he never set foot in a temple or synagogue in his adult life except to give an occasional lecture, but here is the paradox. in his will to the surprise and shock even of his protestant wife and most of his friends, he asked that the traditional

jewish prayer of mourning be recited at his funeral. >> by -- >> he specified, louis hanklin. he was not only a practicing orthodox jew, but the son of one of the preeminent orthodox jews in america. >> and a preeminent legal scholar who for 40 years was a law professor at columbia university. you may know better, one of the great authorities on international law and he at one point had been a consultant to the state department and frankfurt had remained close to him and he was a friend who was a practicing orthodox jew. frankfurter was very jewish until 15 and casts it all off and is jewish again at his funeral and says to another

friend shortly before his death. he said i was born jewish, most of my life i did not live as a jew, but i want to die as a jew. >> so much for jewish influence during his 23 years on the court. >> right. >> so we're up to -- >> we are up to -- >> justice goldberg. >> who was a, you know, did belong to a synagogue his whole life. what else? >> he was an early zionist. we'll come back to it. he and his wife were friends of golda meier and she was in milwaukee as teenagers in the zionist movement. he grew up in chicago, was first in his class at northwestern university, couldn't get a job in one of the big law firms and got a job in a small, what was then a small jewish law firm that founded by the two pritzker brothers. if this name sounds familiar, they're the pritzker family that

eventually started the chain. >> can we get back to the spirituality? >> yes, yes, yes. >> i'm going to take my watch out to remind me. spirituality was interesting. he was a much more jewish jew than any of the other justices. >> sounds like it wasn't saying very much. >> it wasn't saying very much, truly. >> i'll give you one example and one great anecdote. he didn't keep kosher, the dietary laws, but when he sponsored these great saders he would insist if any of his law clerks observed cashroot, he would all make them strictly kosher and one of the years alan dershowitz who many of you know of who has -- who was strictly an orthodox jew, so for this he had the best kosher caterer in washington, caterer was a very expensive kosher for sader and by the way, on his supreme court letterhead, he wrote out the goldberg family recipe for the

traditional passover dish which was sent to the kosher caterer, a copy of which is one of the photos in my book, but spiritually, he was a jewish jew, and as was his wife, and i wanted to -- one quick anecdote, cute anecdote, and it will be very quick, i hope. >> you know, it's five minutes to 8:00. on yiddish kite. >> on yiddish kite. he always told the story of visiting his -- while he was secretary of labor, and and his mother asks who is this, and it's president kennedy, so he answers the president, so she says the president knew of -- >> okay. just a word or two of the yitish kite of justice fortis and then

i'll ask you to reflect again on my question of so why are we talking about jewish justices, the extent, if any, to which, and i know you're not a lawyer or a legal scholar in your -- in your research you were able to discern any impact on the jurisprudence of these people. >> yeah. >> of the fact that they were at least born jewish. >> born jewish. okay. >> so fortis. >> fortis, like frankfurter, was born into an orthodox family, and grew up in memphis,

tennessee, and he also pretty much cut his ties with orthodoxy in high school and continued to be really indifferent to anything in jewish practice and tradition and he was also his wife was not jewish and she was not particularly interested in judaism at all, and she continued in this -- pushed him in that direction. he was the first in his class at yale law school. by the way, the same legend has it that while brandeis was first in his class scholastically at harvard and the scholastic average that has never been met since, they said the same thing about fortis. fortis was -- william douglas who later was on the court, he

also couldn't get a job in a law firm, in a big city, blue chip law firm, blue shoe law firm and he went to work in the new deal. and, of course, that's where he meets lbj and he gets a new law firm in washington what is the first name? >> arnold ferguson porter which today is arnold porter which i made mention about at the end. his wife was a tax specialist who becomes a partner of the same firm and they have a combined salary in the mid-1950s of over $400,000. he would have to take a 90% salary cap, i think, to join the court. >> was he going to shul? >> no. and his wife discouraged him tremendously in that area. although when he visited, they

never had children. his jewish nephews and nieces in memphis, they told him about what it was like to live a jewish life which he knew very little about except for -- can i say one thing? he was very pro-israel. his closest friend in washington for many years was avrem harmon, the former israeli ambassador to the united states, later president of the university. >> some of his best friends were jewish. >> some of his best friends were jewish. you know, i should have put that in the book. >> so maybe the answer to this question is obvious, that none of them, either they had no jewish upbringing as in the case of louis brandeis or they had a jewish upbringing which they forsook, largely in the case of the others. i wouldn't say that it's probably not fair to say about cardozo. he just became indifferent and observant, but unlike, you know, frankfurther or fortis which was just a categorical rejection, this is a disability of my birth that i'm going to try to evercome.

>> in fact, he said it was an accidental birth. >> is it fair to say that it's hard to discern the effect of judaism on their jurisprudence? >> i think it is fair to say. i know mr. gilbert who is the friend of justice brandeis is here. when his parents, i guess, when they had children and when justice brandeis in the late 20s and 30s had jewish grandchildren, then he began to write cards to them for rosh hashanah and hanukkah and that was the jewish influence in life, but no, i think it's face to say that their judaism had very little, if anything, little impact on their jurisprudence and their opinions even in the case of cardozo. and this -- the one thing it did do, which is a legacy of both brandeis and frankfurter. for the first time they appointed jewish law clerks and that became something.

it wasn't out of religiousity and some of the law clerks were much more religious, but i think it's fair to say with possibly one exception with frankfurter that it was negative, actually, that their jewishness or jewish background had no effect on the jurisprudence. >> one other exception, goldberg -- goldberg's jewish background did have some influence on his opinions. so, i think, you know, a couple of things -- a couple of things more about justice brandeis. >> yeah. you know, you talk about this in your book, but justice brandeis had an uncle with whom he was very close.

>> yeah. >> close enough to take his middle name who was very, very observant. >> right. >> do you want to talk about that a little bit? >> his uncle's name was louis dambetz. and he changed his name in honor of his uncle. he was one of the leaders of the orthodox jewish community. he was a jewish scholar or published a couple of books on the bible. he was an orthodox jew and brand ice recalled in his letters very memorably, and the only exposure to traditional shabbat dinners on a friday or saturday would be at his uncle's home and but he didn't emulate his uncle in this way. it was his uncle who inspired him to pursue a career in the law. now his uncle also was a fervent

abolitionist and the this is interesting. his uncle named two of his sons abraham lincoln dembetz and henry clay dembetz. now, also his uncle was one of the founders of the republican party and that's the party of lincoln and the abolitionists in kentucky and was one of the three people who put lincoln's name in nomination at the 1860 republican convention, but there was a very great closeness between the two and it was his uncle's religiosity and somehow it separated the two. >> so on the, you know, let's turn, you know, now for a few minutes to zionism because any biography, zionism is an important theme, i think, with the justices that we've been talking about. >> sure. sure.

>> none more than louis brandeis who, of course, was the president of the american jewish zionist movement. >> today it's the zionist movement of america, yeah. >> and your book recounts and contemplated resigning his supreme court seat in order to assume leadership of the world zionist organization. >> especially, this is the 100th anniversary of the balford declaration this november and he worked so assiduously on the court, by the way, which was an extra judicial which, i don't know if we'll have time to talk about -- activity, pushing and persuading wilson to accept the declaration. >> how do you explain someone who was raised in a resolutely secular family in kentucky. >> yeah. >> you know, the son of a descendant of the german-jewish immigration. >> right. right. >> living in a community very

unlike the existence that frankfurter came out of and moved into in bedford and the lower east side. when does he discover zionism and what does zionism have to do with lewis brandeis's persona and beliefs? >> the first 50 years of his life he had no jewish connection at all. he lived in areas where there were no jewish neighbors. he had one or two jewish friends. the genesis of which i talk a lot in my book. he was invited to be one of the negotiators of the garment workers' strike in new york in 1910. for the first time in his life he met eastern european jews and found an affinity with them which he talks about. these were jews and his other jewish friends had always been

very assimilated german jews and all of a sudden, he somehow, and it struck a cord with him, and these were yiddish speaking jews and he became interested from that experience in zionism, and some of the people he mentioned there, henry moskowitz who later played a role in the senate confirmation battles who is a leading political figure in new york at the time and others who came from more traditional backgrounds and jacob dahaz who had been theodore herschel basically representative in the united states and they told him more and more about zionism and he was a profound zionist leader and recall an early zionist leader. so as time went on he began -- he was almost illiterate. he began to read more and more about judaism, and he began to

find a tremendous link between zionism and americanism. and that was the key for him, and i forget -- i just wish i knew the exact phrase, but his famous phrase at one point was to be a better american -- >> i can remember the phrase. >> you can remember this. please clue me in on this. >> right. to be a great american you first have to be a great jew and to be a great jew you first have to be a zionist. >> exactly. and that became -- >> which is a perplexing set of -- >> to say the least. >> -- propositions and probably amazing to the vast majority of americans who not only don't feel need to be a great jew to be a american and don't need to become a great jew in any event. >> and like he did before and it created a lot of tension because so many jewish leaders didn't

feel the same way, but once he became involved it became his passion. he also he brought some wealthy jewish friends like eugene meyer, the financier and the founder of "the washington post" family and abraham filene and filene's basement and brought them into the zionist movement and benjamin cardozo and by the way, it should be noted, a footnote, benjamin cardozo officiated at felix frankfurter's wedding which is just a nice thing to know, but brandeis was a charismatic speaker and he barnstormed the country in support of zionism and he made zionism respectable amongst christians as well as jews. one --

>> i'm going to give you the hook because i need to ask you -- i need to ask you to tell us one thing about frankfurter and i'm giving myself the hook in two minutes so people in the audience, get ready with your questions. >> i can pass around all of the unasked questions that i have if anybody flags, but frankfurter, let me just -- >> sure. >> just to summarize my understanding of it. >> while frankfurter in many ways was a protege of brandeis. very, very different as a personality. >> yes. >> very, very different in background, but was actually for many, many years actually paid by brandeis to write and publish as a very progressive, public

intellectual and deputized by brandeis to get involved and promote the zionist movement and the book recounts a fascinating story in which frankfurter negotiates a letter from the then king of saudi arabia. >> yeah. >> saying that, you know, arabs favor the balfour declaration and favor the creation of a jewish homeland for which frankfurter took an outsized amount of credit for whatever value it has, but, is it fair to say that frankfurter's devotion to zionism was more in the nature of an assignment? >> very much so. >> frankfurter was -- both brandeis and frankfurter and goldberg, your book recounts beautifully how unbelievably tied in they were to the presidents that appointed them and probably no one more profoundly and integrally as

felix frankfurter, i mean, given the long scope of fdr's tenure. >> sure. you can say that probably nobody more profoundly who seemed to spend more time in the white house and the national security council and actually in the supreme court to the point that his law clerks felt free to take naps in the supreme court because they were sure he wasn't going to show up. >> by the way, something i didn't know before this and it was abe fortis who drafted lbj's 1966 state of the union address. >> okay. there's no reason to think that felix frankfurther had an overwhelming degree of influence both over fdr and over frankfurter's own many proteges in the administration -- i'd just like, before we open it up to questions, i would just like to recount for us the episode you describe in connection with the yan carski and what he did

in washington particularly with respect to frankfurter because this is something i did not know and i find amazing. ian carski some of you may know of in georgetown in the later years and he was a representative of the polish government in exile. he had been -- he had realized in secret what was being done there and he told the emsear to tell the western world what was happening in the holocaust and he comes to the united states in the end of 1942 with the report

that he wrote and his first-hand account of what was happening in the final solution. >> now, first he is told of the polish ambassador of the united states. he tells jan carski you have to meet with frankfurter and jan carski tells him in documented detail about the horrors that he's witnessed first hand and about the nazi's war against the jews and after speaking for close to a half an hour, frankfurter gets up and he was always very formal and says sir, i cannot believe what you're saying and jan carski says, mr. justice, i wouldn't lie to you. >> no, no, you misunderstand me. he said i cannot believe that in my -- in this 20th century that something that you're saying is

actually taking place and he turns his back on carski and walks out. carski and the polish ambassador ask him to set up a meeting with fdr and frankfurter basically meets with fdr before and tells him that he himself cannot believe that something like this is taking place. now what's incredible about this, frankfurter never lobbies, fdr. and it might be expected that frankfurter would lobby the president on a whole host of issues including appointing some of his students to federal judge ships. in fact he had a several year-long campaign to appoint learned land to the supreme court. he used to call fdr at night, even. when it came to the holocaust, he did nothing.

in fact, he had an elderly uncle who was his favorite uncle, solomon frankfurter who was arrested by the nazi police in austria in vienna, and was held in his 80s was held prisoner for several days. one would have expected then frankfurther to go to the president and say, please, do something to help my uncle. my favorite uncle. he didn't. instead he went through an interesting connection, even more shocking with lady astrid in england who he knew was a friend. one last thing, he was a protege of henry stimson who was then the secretary of war or state? >> war. >> his neighbor and close friend was john mcloy the deputy secretary of war. he walked to work with john

mcloy almost every day and he was a war department official responsible for vetoing war department proposal to bomb auschwitz, the death camp and the railroads to them. he would see mccoy every day and talk to him. he never tried to persuade mccoy to change that. >> this was at -- if i'm correct, this was at a point in time in which allied bombers were bombing the industrial sections of auschwitz. >> precisely. >> within five minutes of auschwitz, but the industrial section of auschwitz itself, it would have and this was in late 1950 with hungarian jews who were pushed to auschwitz, had they bombed the railroads to auschwitz and not the death camp it would have slowed up the nazi process of murder by many, many months, but mcloy successfully vetoed this and felix

frankfurter, as far as we know never did a thing to try to dissuade him or his good friend henry stimson. >> okay. we're throwing it open to the audience and we have a member of the audience who has been sitting patiently by the assigned microphone. sir, if you can identify yourself and let us know what your question is. >> i'm rashad thomas. i have two questions. my first question is did any of the justices encounter anti-semitism after they became supreme court justices, number one. and number two, is there something distinctive about their jewishness that contributed to by and large, their liberalism? i think most of the justices who have been jews on the court are left of center in their -- in the philosophy. does their jewishness play a role in that? >> the first question first which is easy. only brandeis and cardozo and

the anti-semitism they faced while on the court was from the justice mcreynolds who was a vocal anti-semiite, but once they were secure on the court they didn't face it. ruth bader ginsburg wrote about this attributing her support for social justice and for so many liberals and social and economic issues to her jewish background. in this article she said me and so many of my colleagues are descendants of rabbis and we've inculcated this and the problem is, that she's been more jewishly involved and many of the jewish justices, for example, like brandeis and -- brandeis and frankfurt, even in his early days didn't know enough about judaism to realize

that their predisposition for social justice and for helping the poor, et cetera, was coming from a tradition they didn't understand. they were all nominated by liberal democratic presidents with the exception of cardozo, but most attributed -- most people attributed, including ruth bader ginsburg has written about this that their liberalism came from their -- almost their dna. they were all descendant, not all, but most were descendant from very strongly religious families. and by the way, a footnote on ruth bader ginsburg, at the age of 15, i have a photo in the book, she was the camp rabbi and she was known as that at her summer camp in the adirondacks. >> thank you very much for your

words today. i am a college student in the washington, d.c. area. my name is nathan weissler. >> nathan, hi. >> i've been interested in jewish history for several years, actually, since i was in elementary school and your book is one of the most meaningful books that i've read in a long time. i've read it cover to cover. >> thank you so much. >> you're very welcome. my question is -- throughout your research, what did you find most interesting about learning about justice goldberg's efforts to an advocacy for ending the death penalty and what do you think -- >> that's interesting and that may be derivative of his jewish background. arthur goldberg with the assistance of alan dershowitz, his law clerk at the time, he went on a campaign, and he tried

to get a campaign going to render the death penalty unconstitutional. the problem was -- had he not resigned from the court, when he did, he might not have achieved this himself by the time the first death penalty cases came out and some of them were -- it was really attacking the constitutionality of the death penalty and it was in the 1970s when he had been off the court. but he and alan dershowitz wrote a famous harvard law review article in 1969 about rendering the death penalty unconstitutional. and that, i would say, was one area where his -- and he was probably still the most knowledgeable in terms of jewish religious tradition. and that came, i think, from his jewish -- his understanding of what then was not called -- and

of jewish values. >> thank you. sir? >> my name is mr. gillman. i live in louisville, walking distance of congressgation ka me a israel and the entire jewish community, lived in a central area of louisville which was open at that time to german jews and especially polish jews. i'd like to present a slightly different perspective on this rabbi. when i studied the talmud and i perceived the obligation of the jew to the treatment of employees, to the treatment of the relationships of other people, and i read the decisions

of justice bran dice as to how you treat your employees, and then when i look at justice kor doe zoe, not necessary le when he was on the supreme court, but when i looked at his decisions on the court of appeals of new york, and i see the upon tilluous requirement of honor among partners and the relationship of partners. and then i see the falls graph case, what do these things result from. these all stem fromt talmudic lessons on how we have several relationships. so, i can draw a relationship to the understanding of jewish law to our civil law. your comment rabbi.

>> okay i think there seven is a relationship in the case of kor doze zoe, who did, although he wouldn't a practicing talmud implicate the -- bran diaz didn't have that jewish knowledge or implication. he later became interested in judaism but i'm not sure one can draw a connection between his decisions in these areas and his -- maybe they have been implicated subconsciously but he did not have the knowledge and understanding of jewish teaches and biblical teaches such as kor doze sew did. although he didn't step foot in

the temple on several occasions but he had the knowledge. but you're right on those decisions, because we have a progressive performer also and he was one of the leading, you know progressive voices in america at that point. >> bran diazs name stays alive with the university of louisville's law school. >> which is a wonderful, yeah really is, yeah. and then was changed i guess in the past 20 or 30 years. >> okay. we had one from the left and now we got one from the right. >> i'm jonathan and from the class of 1995. actually i'm on my way after this venue to another venue less than a mile away to fete my -- but that's a different

discussion, maybe you can write oback on that one day and express his feelings on the american culture or basketball. but anyway my questions are as follows, president wilson, there was actually a forum, a program just putting to sometime ago by the famous author name will come to me in one second. anyway it was a three part series on world war i and focuses on president wilsonism and it had some -- on his racism, anti-semitism and small mindedness the way he approach certain things. wilson, and a lot of his upbringings from that point. question is, what really drove him from everything you learned

about him to sort of move beyond that way that he thought, small mindedness, which is exemplified in the show about why he was that way about certain points. but for -- to be supreme court justice. and the second part is -- has to do with paul's graph, a gentleman mentioned over there. what preconclusion that bran diaz add in the tort that's today? >> well, i'll refer to my league colleagu colleagu colleagues about the bran diaz decision, or my son in the audience who's a college student -- >> i think it's fair to say that it would be more challenging to pick somebody here without legal

training than with legal training. >> but let me answer the other question, one of the ironies is we know now wud row wilson was aray cyst, he reintroduced segregation into the capital. on the other hand he was in his own way semetic. when he was the president of princeton he appointed to first jewish faculty member of princeton. besides bran diaz who he stuck with he appointed several jews, one of which was his close advisers. the whole federal reserve system was the brain child of one of the wall burgs i think who was the close adviser and he had many jewish advisers. so there's no record of his being anti-semetic.

but there is certainly a record, some of you may have followed at princeton university. there was an ethic now to take off the wilson name from the wood row wilson school from national affairs, et cetera. that would be my answer. and it seems to be a paradocs that he really was not anti-semetic from the records that we have but he was certainly aray cyst. >> last question from the left and we'll i know on time. >> rabbi you talked a lot about -- >> identify yourself. >> i'm -- so you talked a lot about harvard law school and we know the supreme court justices have graduated from harvard our jail. can you say if one of the justices didn't go to the ely law schools or can you talk about the roles of these

justices on the supreme court? >> what's interest of course, you know with the only thing -- he was nominated his religious last year was not mentioned at all. the only thing the media court upon is he would be the ninth justice to have gone to harvard law and yale. kor doze sa wen to colombia, a fairly good law school, might i say. frankfurter top of his class. fortus went to yale, of course. ruth went to harvard and colombia, and it's interesting, she followed her husband, he was a year ahead of her when he

moved to new york to get a job, she wen to colombia and she's the only not only one i think, one of the few people in history who was on two lawyer reviews, the harvard and colombia law review. steven breyer wen to stanford as an undergraduate in harvard law school. and elaine that kagan went to princeton and harvard law school. so the decline of anti-semitism in the legal profession, it was a lawrence -- you'll ready about in my book hopefully who led the anti-semetic opposition, to president of harvard to bran diaz his appointment. it was through these jewish student who grew up,

frankfurter, fortus and goldberg were all the first members of the family to go to college. and then they went from -- they went to all these very preteenager just law schools. so it was par of the greater acceptance in the -- in the law schools that helped the change -- help bring about a decrease of anti-semitism in the legal profession. and one story that's very interesting i think when bran dices daughter, anti-bebelief, the mother graduated at the top of her class, bran dice was very interested and she had hoped, at least the story i'm told, to have gone to harvard, yale or colombia. the problem is at that time there were no women admitted.

each of the deans said they'd love to admit her but there'd be another ten years before they admit women. so she went to not a bad law school, university of chicago, where she met her husband, another law student. but i think it's what you said as the decline of -- there was a gall decline of anti-semitism in the american legal profession and it was faased in part by so many of these lawyers who were either immigrants themselves or the children of immigrants whose parents had never gone to college, going to the top elite law schools in the country and doing well there. and therein having distinguished legal careers deriving from that. >> thank you all very much.